Artificial Intelligence and Future Efficiency

Attention all passengers. The Uber ride for Jeff's rugby team will depart in five minutes from platform 15. Your ride comes with six toilets and a refreshments carriage that you'll empty within five minut es. Thank you for poking your tickets on Uber . One of the recurring themes on this show is the interaction between geopolitics and finance. We've talked at length about how the US government has used its grip on the global financial system to exert pressure on its adversaries. We've debated the fractures and tensions caused by economic rivalries, by tariffs, and now by the war in the Middle East. And we've discussed how Europe can respond to these challenges and what it can do to become less dependent on its erstwhile allies. But what is it like to run a financial institution in this complex and uncertain world? That's what we're going to examine on the big view today. It's what we do at Royce's Breaking Views. We tap our best sources around the world for fresh insight into the biggest stories in global finance, business and economics. I'm your host, Peter Thalars on. My guest today is Stefan Leitner. Stefan is the CEO of Deutsche Borse, the German company which, as the name suggests, operates the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. But it does much more than that. It trades and clears derivatives, commodities, and foreign exchange. It provides a range of services related to securities and investment management, supplies data and research to fund managers, and compiles stock indices. Generated about six billion euros of revenue last year and has a market capitalization of around 50 billion euros. Stefan, who became CEO just over a year ago, is an Austrian national whose previous employers include Deutsche Bank and EQT, the private equity firm, and he joins me here in the studio in London. Stefan Leitner, welcome to the big view . Thank you very much. Uh it's a pleasure to be here. Uh really exciting to be part of uh a breaking perspective here. Yes, exactly. And good to have you here uh uh in person as well. I mean it's a very um it's it's it's uh yet again a very momento us uh period that we're living through at the moment. Um, you know, a lot of geopolitical upheaval. Uh we've seen tariffs, we've seen uh uh kind of uh big, big geopolitical rivalries are now obviously we're in in the middle of a uh uh a war in the Middle East as well. I just wonder sort of uh when you think about your business and the industry that you're in, what what do you see in terms of the the impact of that geopolitical tension on the industry? Well, industry is a capital market uh environment, but more narrowly, I mean, we are the leading sort of capital market infrastructure provider in Europe. And I think if I dare linked back the geopolitical dynamics. Then clearly that has short-term impact. I mean, we have clearly seen as market infrastructure unprecedented volumes. There's a high need by investors to uh think around risk management and using our instruments. We've seen in the first few months uh 30 and more percent increase in volume of derivatives and uh risk management activity. But then we also see the second bigger picture trend out of the geopolitical and that's the fragmentation of the geopolitics and bringing themes around autonomy back high on the agenda. So the volumes are this is investors adapting their portfolios. I mean you trade a lot of uh d derivatives, also energy, you know, commodities and so forth. I mean this this is really just sort of people trying to to reallocate every day in and day in, day out. Yes. On the one hand side, sometimeses many tim in a day. Yes, many times in a day. And then uh overlaying it uh with uh as you say with derivative instruments that help them to manage their their risk positions, especially if they have complex portfolios underlying that they can't really adjust as fast, then derivatives are a very important part. We operate both in financial markets but also in energy markets. I mean Deutsche Börse Group through the European Energy Exchange is very active in electricity and gas markets. So those have seen even more pronounced peaks in in volume dynamics. Just uh to talk about a reference number again. We've seen sixty to seventy percent more derivative in electricity and gas than in the prior year and and and it is not as though as last year was a calm year. Last year already go back Q1 last So in that sense, uh the main message I I think for our industry is really that there have been these exceptional turbulent times, but that the infrastructure has worked well. We have not seen a glitch. You know, the markets have been able to provide liquidity in these turbulent times. So I think for the financial markets from a mechanics and the working, and don't underestimate that. I mean, if we had il liquidity moments and so on would be awful, that has not happened. Our systems performed exceptionally well. Yeah. And that's the difference from I mean, we s obviously saw during COVID where there were the real strains in the systems and also a little bit after Well illiquidity pockets occurred and and and all of that has not happened. So I think that's a very reassuring message to participants in the markets. is that the as a consequence of changes that have been made since COVID? Yes. We I mean again, if I just can can talk from us, but uh some are following the same strains in a way, but we have been very proactive in in upgrading our systems. We have moved in many ways to much bigger platforms and partnerships that we have, giving us the capacity and making it also easier to react if we need to make adjustments. We are much faster in our implementation time on new software, on new adjustments in the systems. So I think that's that's a very important part of what has happened since the last few years, as you as you rightfully point out. That's encouraging. But then so it took a bit about the the fragmentation that you mentioned. So where does that show up? Where do you see it in in in the sort of the the the the business that you're handling? Well the the the fragmentation is is is less uh a day in, day out fragmentation, but it is uh in particular a strategic uh you know desire around autonomy that is is creating a structural fragmentation again in and that's only at the beginning I would say . For Europe it means a clear desire of autonomy in terms of an understanding that the capital market is underdeveloped, that Europe needs to develop and strengthen its own capital market. So there's all the efforts around capital markets union for many years. Now it's labeled savings and investment union. But it got a totally different impetus, even in the last few months again. If you see how short the imminent sort of discussions at the European Union and the Council and the Parliament level are to come up with real propositions. That's very different from before. Yeah. So that's we should definitely come back to the the the European level. But just I guess I'm sort of more curious in terms of in terms of the way people are behaving, perhaps, in terms of in terms of the way money is moving. What do you observe there or not observe d c compared to what the sort of the big things people talk about? Well the the the the one theme that uh I think we do not see and that's very important is that the risk aversion is feeding through a system and stopping people from investing. That's not the case. I mean, we see a continued inflow. If you look at the funds volumes and how funds are accumulating, you know, so I think there's a structural trend that comes with the aging of populations. People are very conscious. of that So that inflow is has a as a solid continuity. I think that's very encouraging because we've seen different that COVID it resulted in initially in a total stop of investment uh uh sort of uh uh uh uh uh de savings activity almost uh so that's not the case. Now what we see much more volatility is clearly the global flows. You know, we have seen last year at the beginning of the year that strong you know talk around the European uh attractiveness uh from a economic perspective. Then we have seen a risk diversification attractiveness of Europe for the later part of the year. And I think now we are again in much more at an ambivalence uh flows into the US, into Europe. You know, the the the the tide is moving in a quite fast paced left and right, so the direction is less clear. Right. But there was yes, I said that's been a big theme you're right, until the until the sort of the the the Iran conflict started was was sort of that move away from the dollar, away f people looking away from the US. And structurally it still continues . You know, the underlying diversification trade uh still is going on and it's partly driven simply by the the the importance of growth in the market itself, the valuations going up, you know, means people have a sort of a desire to make sure that there's adequate diversification. At moments when park markets are felt to be very richly valued, they say the worst thing to me to happen is I I've been riding a wave and then I forgot to diversify. Yeah, and you that's something you definitely hear a lot from from some of the big investors. But do you how do you sort of there are a couple of different things going on there. So there's part of it is is people just saying the US has been going, you know, has been outperforming for many years. Uh, you know, at some point um there will be a there will be a shift. Uh but on top of that, there may also be a bit of a sort of just a sort of risk management point of view, people wanting to be a bit less exposed to you . So is there I mean maybe it's too early to sort of try and unpick those things, but is there a sort of uh beyond the sort of the val uation question, do you sense uh uh a broader secular shift away from the US? Well, which has been there last year, I think that's very clear, and we continue to see some of that. Um we have some I would also highlight it. It's not only an equity market, it's in particular a wider market. I mean the fixed income dynamics has changed or so the outlook with the turbulent environment, the inflation push, you know, there's a different attitude to what's the interest rate outlook again. And that is affecting also, you know, how between currencies uh people are are looking at the investment dynamics and has Europe made again you know probably one of the environments where the interest rate outlook uh is is is uh changed more more to the upside yes, yes. Than in in other environments . So I I think it's important to always take people these days to take a very broad cross-asset class perspective that one needs to consider. So so how does that how do you f how does that change the way you think about your business? Because obviously, I mean, you know, Deutscher Bursa, the the the the clue is in the name. Um but uh but obviously you have a you have a pan European business and you have businesses in other parts of the world, including in the US, you've made fairly substantial acquisitions in the US . Is that a lesser focus now uh given what's going on in the world or do you sort of still are you still sort of trying to expand in the US as well? The US is is no question remains a lead market. And lead means not just volume-wise, but for us, I mean we talked about diversification of investors. That means also US investors diversification. For us, a big part of our client base are trading partners out of the US that trade into European markets, which we traditionally operate and and expand in. But I I think uh the second leg is that we very much need to uh make sure we we stay and lead the transformation that is happening for European markets. That's a big part. And that is not just an autonomy, but it's also a technology part. I mean, we have been technology trend we haven't spoken so much about yet but uh uh yet but the acceleration that is happening on the technology side with you know crypto different recognition in the US with uh uh tokenization and underlying sort of uh and that's why uh you know to us it's so important to not be narrowly focused on the trading layer. It's uh all of these changes affect all the layers . They affect the trading layer, they affect the post trade layers, how do things get settled, where's the efficiency? And then lastly they affect a lot the data layer. And many of our investments have been in both of those environments, post trade and the data layer. And I definitely want to come back to the sort of the crypto and the tokenization piece. But just just to just to finish on the US, I mean I think one thing that that that we've talked a lot about generally and we talked a lot about on this show is the is the the the the US weaponization of the financial system, you know, the the u use of the financial system to exert pressure on on other countries and and going through institutions. I mean you have d Deutsche Bus's direct experience of this as do as do others banks and so forth. I just wonder do you uh is is that still a big factor? Does that is that something that's still kind of like looming in the background? They could you know the U the US authorities can use us to to put pressure on other people? Well, interestingly enough, in a way that uh development has spread, if I call it all. Look at how Europe and and has become much more conscious and how we are now in the twentieth sanction package when we talk about Russia. So I think the entire, you know, uh arsenal, if I refer to that, has changed and it goes back to the theme of uh building autonomy. I mean people as they have built uh in different geographies, more autonomy, you know , that that aspect has become more important. So for us it's a more complex world. But that's what we have grown up, that's what is some of our strengths as Deutsche Börse, that we always have been sitting between, you know, the European markets development, the US as a lead market, and Asia being a very important growth market. Many of the investors that we support come from Asia, invest through Europe into the US But do you to what extent does that the the fact that governments have sort of learned as you you're right I mean the US started but others are doing the same thing to the fact that governments have learned that they can sort of use the financial system in this way . Does that then contribute to the fragmentation that you're talking about? Yes. Yeah. Yes. And it can break create really dysfunctional complexity in some cases. I mean, let's uh hope that the sanction regimes stay well aligned. Uh I mean there's clearly one layer of complexity. But I also think that it goes down to what are some of the uh instruments and and that can access different markets. So the efforts around you know standardizing listing requirements, the efforts around similar sort of frameworks can't stop within Europe. We need to make sure we also stay aligned with the US. And that's why uh the new instruments, you know, take crypto and some of those instruments being global instruments is such a big theme. They offer really global investment opportunities. They have global investors. So we need to make sure that we don't create the fragmentation and standards on the new instruments. That's particularly relevant. Yeah, that's very interesting. So I want to talk about Europe. Um uh I mean clearly this this sort of sense of or the the you use it a lot, you know, several times already, this word autonomy. Um uh what if you think about finan cial markets, um what is the Well the starting point though is is really you need autonomy by having capital that is domestic capital, that invests and is available for capital markets. I mean, the numbers are often talked about thirty-three trillion of European savings investments that are basically tucked in bank accounts. So I I think it's not about the autonomy. You know, autonomy starts with having your own capital base and that capital base supporting the growth in Europe. And that's why we need to make progress. That's why these pension reforms, you know, across Europe are so important. That's why the conversations that always look at Sweden and Nordic countries and say, great what they did 20 years ago, now we need to start. As I always say , the the second best day, you know, the best day to start the pension reform would have been 40 years ago. Now the second best day is today, because if you don't get going, it won't work. But there's a lot of momentum there. I think that's the first level And after that only come considerations that need to address the fragmentations of markets. I mean let me be specific. We have five hundred trading venues in Europe. This is totally disproportionate. In the US we still have uh a fifty plus percent share of trading in equities that happens in transparent markets in Europe that's eroded over the last twenty years to be thirty and below. So we need to make sure dark pools dark pools, uh systemic internalizers. So I think that fragmentation, you know, there's no need for five hundred trading venues in Europe . I think we need to bring volumes back. So then we have liquidity. So the starting point is to have capital that can invest. The next one is to bring uh liquidity. And then the third element is to really have a strong lead on technology. If Europe looks at building autonomy, it should not build autonomy in historic old concepts. We should use digital frameworks from the starting point. And that's where actually Europe in the last few years had a good run. You know, they've been proactive. We started to talk earlier about the digital euro than we talked about the digital dollar. There still is no intent about a digital you know dollar at this point. But in in the private sector there's stable coins. So I think Europe, you know, needs to make sure we focus on new technology. a lot in conversations w in in this industry is people talk about Sweden, but you know, the sort of what the Swedes have done in terms of encouraging people to save, uh uh investing say you know, their their retirement savings in the market, developing companies and so forth. I mean, it seems to me like those are things that that to the extent they can be transferred to other countries, it's within the the the the the capability or the the power of individual countries to make those reforms, right? It doesn't need a sort of big bang pan European reform. Some are very much moving ahead. I mean, just take last summer, Poland introduced, you know, an an an an active specialized savings account similar to what uh Sweden had done 20 years ago. Germany has now introduced it, it just passed parliament, and uh there's uh sort of a freshness to some of that, and there's a next bigger pension reform to come. So it's really as you say, it's country by country . It can't be fingerpointed to the European Commission and Europe is not delivering. And it doesn't stop at the level of what the governments do. I think corporates have a big responsibility here because corporate pension schemes are by by no way sufficiently developed. In Germany, it's only 50% of employees that get access to corporate pension schemes. In the UK, that number was also fifty percent ten, fifteen years ago. Now it's ninety percent. So let's let's move the needle on some of those. Very doable. So is is this talk, you know, there's all these acronyms, as you said, it was the capital markets union that's and then and now it's it was a 50-point list of technical points. Now it's moved up one one intellectual level. I think that's healthy. But there is still this idea that sort of you know someone in Brussels needs to kind of you know bang heads together or wave a magic wand or something to to make all this happen. I mean, is that is that really necessary to create a a proper sort of savings and investments union? Or is a I think first it's down as you highlighted that the the the pension, the capital building is is very much a national effort. I I think there is uh clearly a a number of measures that uh are regulated at the European level and and those include you know what we alluded to earlier. I mean the the miffi the mythia technical terms, but uh those regulatory frames that have been shaped twenty years ago have been leading the wrong direction. We need to go back and really take a step back and say what is needed to bring, you know , liquidity together in Europe and and that's where the EU has a important role to play. And where ongoing discussions right now are very intense between the governments, different views and the Commission and the Parliament. So they have given themselves a very tight timeline this time. Yeah. Yeah. What um d does this then lead to, do you think, at some point, a sort of a pan-European consolidation of some form. I mean, you know, this gets talked about in kinds of all kinds of industries, banking, uh, yeah, transportation, etc. Um, but in in in sort of in your business, I mean, just to sort of to put it simply , do we need so many stock exchanges in Europe? The biggest problem on the trading menus is not the number of stock exchanges, it's the total number of trading menus, you know, as we alluded to earlier. But consolidation is an important motor. That's why for us, one of the big segments is the role we can do, or what we can do to support the retail savings coming into capital markets. That's why the big acquisition, our biggest acquisition of seven billion that we announced and the partnership with Allfense Bank. You know, we have this is all about supporting the distribution of funds and ETFs to give mid sized asset managers the opportunity to access as many distribution partners as possible, but conversely to give retail savers a wide choice of different funds to invest in. So while that is a technical area, you know, we are an infrastructure provider, so we need to provide rails. This is a big area for rails. So that's why that consolidation step that we are driving there is an important part of indeed, you know, adjustment of the European landscape. I see. So the sort of the the the kind of the talk about exchange consolidation maybe is a bit of a red herring. I mean I must say actually by the way that I mean Breaking Views, I think one of the first columns ever published by Breaking Views, twenty five more than twenty-five years ago now, was about Deutsche Boser uh trying to acquire the London stock exchange. So you you you frame it well by pointing it back. It's a a a theme that uh probably accompanied . Today this is all about building proper integrated infrastructure. And we have made a lot of progress on consolidating in critical areas. Also we provide a very strong you know derivative. So we talked upfront about what's needed most in these turbulent times. It's a highly, highly concentrated liquidity on derivatives to allow risk management at scale. That's what UREX, you know, our derivative exchange very successful, both on fixed income and equities allows. So I think it's it's really a question area by area. And then it needs to all fit together. We have a fragmented non-connecting trading venues and post trade settlement systems. So that's why we need to really look at this on and topic by topic. Okay. Um you you mentioned cryptocurrencies and and tokenization so forth. I mean it's it's very striking I think over the last y couple of years the way in which that sort of c crypto technology and the sort of the the the way in which crypto works has sort of injected itself into into mainstream finance. What how do you what do you attribute that to? Because for a long time there was a sort of real sort of slightly hands-off approach. Who are the participants in those segments? And uh a big part of that was uh especially emerging also through COVID all was a younger generation, active trading and financial market, affine set of individuals. So many of them have continued to be engaged. And that's a big universe. So if you look at uh some of the big uh uh venues on the crypto side, and we uh you know just last uh few weeks have announced uh uh a partnership with uh Kraken or underpinned now also by an equity investment from us. So they own a multimillion, you know, universe of distribute of clients which work through them. So that client universe is now moving beyond just crypto and is moving to more traditional investments. And that's why that connectivity is happening happening very natural. And I think it's really up to us as infrastructure providers again to not say that part of the road network is cut off. But we need to build the connections between that part of the road system and our main road system. Yeah. And obviously that you that also I guess informs some of the changes that we've seen because people are used to trading crypto twenty four hours a day, it settles instantly, all this sort of stuff. So almost That's what they are used to, these people and that's what they expect for everything. So that forces the the the rest of the system in the But it also doesn't force the entire rest of the system. Right. You know, it we need to uh develop solutions that are tailored for different client segments. We need solutions that are tailored for the biggest institutional clients. And for them probably the training activity on a Sunday evening is less pressing. It's more important to be able to execute trades at size. To do that in a in a very safe way and proper way. You know, I have rarely seen an order from a big pension fund that is hit into a mobile phone on a Sunday afternoon. You know, they come in on Monday, they 're let's hope not. Yes. But there is, I mean clearly in the US, obviously where where where the retail uh retail investors are really important. There there is this push towards you're not quite twenty four seven, but what is it, twenty two five type trading, um, but keeping markets open for longer. Do you is that something that will catch on elsewhere, do you think? We have followed. Uh take again our retail market in Germany, etc. retail we call it. It's not open until ten in in the evening. So I I think certainly, yes, it will follow and we'll also see some segments. I mean the currency market has always been twenty-four-seven to some extent, or in the in a in a genuine underlying activity now. Clearly there's less or more liquidity. What we need to be remain conscious is that we don't refragment liquidity, that we provide uh liquidity at moments at scale where it is needed for the institutional finance. So this is this is an interesting question then, particular maybe this brings us to this idea of tokenization, the sort of the fact that you basically take stocks or whatever and and and put them onto a onto a sort of a uh a distributed ledger blockchain type technology. Um presumably there is a danger there that that then that the liquidity does get split, right? That you sort of you're trading a Deutsche Borce share here, but you're also trading a token of a deutsche Borser share. That's why the the inter total interconnectivity is one of our big paradigms around this. And it's not just you know in a in a technical sense connectivity, but it it it it is really also over time a consistency in instruments. You know, it's not good enough. Let me just say that and illustrate that. When we these days hear about tokenized shares trading, this often is not the real share, the underlying share, but it is a mirror mirror image. Now what is a mirror image? You know, technically this was called ADRs. This was US stocks you could trade in Europe. Yeah. But they didn't have dividends in many cases, they didn't rely to voting rights. So at the end of the day, therefore we need to deliver the real thing also in these new formats. That's what we are focused on. That's why Deutsche Börse, we have invested heavily in building truly digital security frameworks. What does that how does the regulatory framework fit into that? Because some people say, well, this you hear some people say, well, tokenization is basically a way to try and remove some of this from the current regulation and put it in a different place where it will be regulated maybe in a less in a more hands off way. Do you do you do you share that concern? Rightfully, I mean the theme is a big focus on the European sort of overhaul or it's it's a part of the discussion there. And I think what we need to make sure is that same risk, same regulation remains the paradigm that that governs there. So therefore I don't think that the sandbox and pilot regimes can be extended to become permanent. You know, we need to come back to what are some of the lessons learned all the way back to the big financial crisis? Those lessons learned, let's not lose them when it comes to safety. Because my ingoing statements, most volatile times ever, markets have functions. I mean, if you have most volatile times and fire markets have broken down, this world looks totally different. Yeah, that's a good point. And actually I was I was at a conference in Hong Kong uh um last week where uh one of one of Europe your ex rivals was talking about that actu the the speed with which stock markets work at the moment, you actually couldn't really replicate that on a on a sort of crypto on a on a blockchain type. We we know that crypto settlement is too slow at this point. I mean we have uh enormous volumes on enormous machines. And we have moved those machines also further in into new into new technology . I mean we are now eighty percent of our volumes operate in the cloud. I mean we're still operating, you know, extremely high highly efficient systems on on on very, very short response times. So you're absolutely right. You know, let's make sure we but but there are some client segments. Again, I go back to that, that uh retail, you know, semi-retail professional trader environment that has become a relevant part of liquidity. In those areas, you know, that's not about instant in in in the mechanical sense, uh, but they can absorb longer settlement times. Yeah. What is the what is the what's the benefit of all of this? What's the sort of the payoff? I mean, because the crypto enthusiasts obviously will will tell you about this wonderful world where, you know, it's all distributed and you don't have to trust banks or clearing houses or anything anymore. Uh I just wonder what you know, if if we go through all this effort and digitize all these things and tokenize all these things, what's the w w what are we getting out of this? Well, first, I mean tokenization per se is independent of distributed ledger or of uh centralized settlement. I think that's very important to separate. So the tokenization that comes with you know on on the one hand uh standardized data formats that comes with standardized uh processing routines, that will deliver more efficiency. Today, the uh the capital market in many aspects is highly inefficient. It's it's often very layered. We have local custodians, global custodians, central security depositories, many layers exist. There's a lot of reconciliation efforts that are going on. I think there in a proper digitized, tokenized securities world, many of those things have no rationale. Why would you why would you need to reconfirm in the evening, you know, that the securities that you booked in Italy exist if that's done on a proper ledger, reconfirmed automatically? Why would you need a human to go down a and and t tickick a list, which still happens today. Right. So there's efficiency. I think efficiency becomes cheaper, basically. I mean human intervention is a risk factor, especially in many of our processes. A big part of automation is making sure that things don't have human intervention that is error prone. Yeah. So we've managed to talk for all this time without mentioning artificial intelligence, which must be but there must be first two two avatars speaking to each other. You know, they don't dare to mention that they're only avatars. So you're real assoid and I'm real. I I will confirm I am real. As are you. Uh um but what so I mean it's a massive topic obviously, but just what is the uh what what is the biggest impact that you see from AI in your business at the moment? So AI clearly uh affects us in throughout the entire business. But let me start, I mean, first and foremost, uh most obvious is in a way the efficiency impact that AI will bring. You know, we are uh a big sort of uh IT provider, we do a lot of uh coding. Uh we uh put systems in place for our own purpose, for our clients. You know, that's the most uh readily visible in a way that coding capacities uh dramatically change , our coding becomes more effective. The same is true for administrative costs that will go down. So that's the cost efficiency game around AI. I think the next one is really our markets. I mean, markets will change, we'll see a different type of trading flows. We will see much smaller tickets coming through AI triggered. You know, nobody will do a hundred million trade overnight with uh IEI induced uh without making that a human check, but on a small volume, a bit similar to what we have seen, efficiency contribution to markets from high frequency. So that's higher volume and that will uh be the second leg. And then I I think uh uh there is clearly also in a number of other areas secondary effects. And we just uh point to what we are seeing on the electricity. I mean AI comes with enormously growing electricity demands. We operate the biggest energy exchange uh on the electricity side. We expect therefore a lot of structural growth in in risk management and volumes that go through those electricity markets. Yeah. And I guess there that well, that would be a big growth area for uh yeah, of power. Until uh until we we put uh data centers in space and then uh we'll have unlimited uh We'll still trade it then. We'll still trade it right. Okay. In space somewhere. Um well hopefully uh uh hopefully it won't replace uh uh the two two people having a conversation in the studio partly so uh partly it will it changes my life. I don't I mean I know it changed a lot of your life. Yeah. No, I know. But I I I think we definitely I personally see it quite a lot of the routines traditionally done. You know, change uh in how information gets put together, how I address meetings and so on. So it's uh I think for many of our stuff is as much a personal journey. Yeah. As a corporate as a economy journey. But I still hope you know, conversations like this are very valuable and uh uh and hopefully can't be done by a machine for uh hopefully I won't have to interview your your uh your digital avatar or your your agent or whatever uh at some point in the future. I will come back. At least I mean you may ask for the avatar. I may come back anyway . Thanks for taking me. No, thank you very much for your time. It was really great. Appreciate it. Thanks Peter . That's our show this week. Thanks to Stefan for coming into the studio , and as always, thanks to you for tuning in. This podcast was produced by Oliver Tazich with the help of Mike Copeland and John Hodge here in London. You can check out a new episode of the Big View every Tuesday. Don't forget to tune in to our sister show Vwsieroom every Thursday and all the other great podcasts from the Reuters team. To get in touch with feedback and suggestions for future shows, please email us on breakingviews -podcast at tr .com. That's breakingviews podcast at tr.com. If you liked what you heard, please rate the show and leave us a review or a comment. Breakingviews subscribers can read all our views on bigglobal stories at breakingviews.com or you can sample some of our column's work every day at reuters.com . Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bott