The Anxiety of Influence in Basketball

Bill Simmon's podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast network where we put up a new rewatchables on Sunday night It might have been the best one we've ever done. It's at least in the running. It was two thousand one of Space Odyssey, Me Sean Fantasy and the one and only Steven Spielberg, just an incredible episode Uh we thought we were going to have him for like seventy five minutes. He stayed for two hours and u Let put on a film school clinic for us. What a rush. What a great time claims he's coming back to do jaws next year. We'll see, but We love to ha have them. I'm really proud of that episode. So go check it out when you have a chance We're going to have another reatchables episode this week. We have a mail bag coming on Thursday. So stay tuned For that one. I am going to be doing a podcast right after game one. Tomorrow night that's going to be live on Netflix. So G ready for that as well. The Nicks are in the finals. had that Max Coermman to just talk about Football trades, the Kicks, Wby. what should OKC do greatest Kicks of all time. We tried to cover. as many things as we possibly could and you can check out Max as well on the Game overver podcast with Max Kowerman and Rich Paul. So that's Coming up next. we're going to take a break We're bringing our friends from Pearl Jam and then two hours with Max Kellerman next This episode of the Bill Smonons podcast is presented by PayPal clutch move and you see one. a no look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steel. Well, imagine if your' wallet pull off moves like that. my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony birds and Vioter and save offers before you check out Unlimited rewards. Plus you can add those rewards on top of credit card points is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See payPal d. com slash rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers Terms and conditions This episode is brought to you by TikTok Did you know you can use TikTok to connect even more with the sports you love? It's not just highlights, it's everything around the game, including the sports community Fine breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover people teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone's sharing what they know Max Kallerman is here. We are recording on a Tuesday morning Pacific time, a day before the New York Kickser in the NBA Fals. A day you never probably thought you'd see again in your lifetime. Had you given Gting to the finals? Possible. Yeah. Winning the finals, something else. Impossible. We're gonna to talk about that. I have a whole bunch oficks stuff for you, but I want to talk about football first just because I didn't get a chance like The NBA every time they think they have the stage. They have Weny coming in vanquishing OKC. We have a Nick Spurs wet Dream finals. The face of the league. everyone loves him. Oh my God, worldwide sensation And the us hold my beer versus the biggest market and like center of the known universe that is basketball starved. And that is by the way, a basketball town above all things. Yeah Perfect for the NBA and they can get bumped off the back page. Hardest ticket in probably the history of New York sports and the NFL is like wo monster trades for you today. How about this? We're gonna take it for one day from you. thirty five first seat, the first seats that sold two hundred seventy thousand dollars for two course. I was thinking about that. My dad was always in this, but like my dad in the zero eight finals. You know, he said season tickets at seventy four for the Salts. bad for I don't know, fifteen years. they made they had one like decent team. And then the OA finals they play the Lakers and it's like money I could get for these tickets. I could basically pay for the last seven years, but it's like, well, what's the point of having the tickets if I'm not going to go to these games? Got to le to do the mental math for it. You gott to go to at least one. I feel like you gott to go to all, but I would understand if people sold Yeah, We never had season tickets growing up. It was always like Yeah, I got box seats and I'm like, what are we doing up here? Well, when I was a kid, box seats me sat down there. So So like I was a bleacher creature. Yeah Um Football Mes Garrett Yeah For Jared versse a one a two and a three in three different years in a lot of ways, a much bigger trade than Parsons because Jared Vversse is awesome Um I was kind of stunned by this one. The Rams They're zagging every year They're always trying to they everyone's doing this We're doing this. We don't care about first round picks, whatever. We'll just try to pick up guys later in the draft. We're going to go in over and over again on these guys in their prime. And it's Mostly work. They got they won a Super Bowl. They're always relevant. They always feel like they're one of the five or six best teams I wanted to hate this trade for them because it was like, man, first is really good. likeike is that Is that upgrade worth all you're giving up, but then I kept thinking back to all the Browns games I watched the last couple years, especially last year. He's just Garret's getting double teamed And the line is just going backward m anyway. He makes everyone better. Yeah. But versus when I first heard about the trade, I just assumed it was draft picks. Yeah And like, o, they gave up this, this, o wait, and verse And verse it if you're the ramps. Yeah You must do it. firstirst of all, Miles Garretts wear in the crown Right? So like there's a lineal champ in football too on the defensive side. It went from JJ. Watts to Aaron Donald Miles Garrett This is the Miles Garret defensive error right now And he's in his prime So that's a fun championship belt by the way. Rey White had it for a few years. LT. Yeah, Reggie White. Bruce Smith popped in there. Yeah mayaybe between those two Um, yeah, there's like it is and every era has that guy occasionally, it's like, well Calil Mac never had it. this guy never had it, but actually it was really always Aaron Donalds and maybe you can find a few years By and large, JJ. Watt. Aaron Donald Miles Garrett And I'm sure that that's not the first thing they had in mind. Hey, let's let's make Verse into an even better player, right? Yeah But if the opportunity presents itself to get a special player You go all in, you figure out the rest later If you cially with how close they were last year they were It was a Super Bowl. likeike, you know, no offense, Pats fans, but like it was very clear sometimes. I take no offense.. I'm not even sure we should have been in the Super Bowl. out of the out of the out of the A. I was talking to my buddy Gus Ramsy yesterday, who's a huge Broncos fan and I was just like, I can't believe you guys didn't beat us. Like that bow next thing was such a crazy Yeah end of the game fluke and I just They get Denver gets to twenty points if they have boncks in that game. That's not a ten seven game. No, but that's a pretty evenly it's pretty even match. It's it's like the it's like the junior varsity Ramsy Hawks. Right prettyty even match up could go either way. We couldn't block though ike the further I get away from the playoffs, I'm like, I can't believe we thought we were going to win the Super Bowl. Yeah, you went on it bothoth sides of our line couldn't block. And then Seattle was like, Ohh, well Campbell, we're going to attack this side too and they just destroyed us. And Drake may look like a deer and headlights in the Super Bowl, but mightJ Brown. Okay, first things first. So So this is what I love about what the Rams did. Yeah Is your faith misplaced? yes or no where if you put it in the right place Hey, I know what it'll do We'll trade for James Harden. That'll win us a championship and we'll give him everything he needs, right? Misplaced faith Especially when it comes out they could had Drwalde instead. That is brutal. How did they decide on James Harten over Drewalde inssane. I couldn't believe that So the Rams before Stafford. Yeah. They used a lot of draft capital to get Jaraoff. Yeah. Jaraoff's not just like we had the number one pick. Jara Goff represents multiple high level draft picks in order to move up to get Gf. and it worked. You made a Super Bowl. Yeah, but you didn't win a Super Bowl So then, even more draft capital, multiple high end picks to turn golf into Stafford thinking that is the difference between making and winning a Super Bowl and there right? And it almost worked twice. Right. So like Is the faith placed in the right place? W Dvante It was a second? Yeah Yeah., I wasn't a. Yeah, no I' have to check that out think it was signed? No, they sign sign They signed Dvante. They signed Dvante. I kn it wasn't first. They signedvante. But like that is when you think about took to get Stafford the draft capital. peopleeople would say you're insane. They won a Super Bowl. They came this close to winning another Sper Bowl So you have a two year window right now And who knows if he'll be good two years supp. They also really they draft well in the later rounds, which I wonder like when you know you don't have picks You're basically crossing off the first thirty guys on the board, right? And you're spending way more time on the next level guys if If you're good at's at like Puka Nakkua. If you're good at that, you can trade draft picks. Yeah, right? They they've been good They've been real And then even the McDuffy thing is like They'll be better there. They'll be better there than they were like the real the real separation. Okaykay, spepecial teams. Seahawks had a big advantage going into the Super Bowl and the secondary. Seahawks had an advantage Well, the secondary is kind of shorered up now And then you add Miles Garrett, like Even if it doesn't work, it's worth the sh like take a swing. That is a swing worth. L like world enough to remember when this moves like this over the years when you put a guy that couldouldn't get over the hump and also wasn't getting enough attention for how great he was. and then you put him on the right team B city with a chance to win, you always get the bump. You get the bump with Stafford it was so unclear. It's like it's always considered top five arm talent But then after he got to the point in his career where it really wasn't clear You know, usually a great quarterback even in a bad organization keeps you at a certain level. you did for a while, but not always and it was like, well, Is Stafford a little overrated by the real football heads? or is this just a bad situation for him afford is That's Trevor Lawrence now It was same thing where the nerds were saying he was better than he was, but the eye test was like, all right, well where is it? And then he finally made the playoffs. but Stafford, I could never figure out because He's on the lance, the worst football team of, you know t run franchise, but he did have receivers So it was always like, what is this guy? Yeah. It always seemed like he was getting the shit kicked out of him. But did he put up numbers? He did. Yeah. But there was a point I remember when it was like, he's going to be a Hall of famamers somed and counter was like, really? He's thatyafford. I mean now sure fire hold now now is a sure f. And even to win that Super Bowl, you think about, I think we've discussed this When Brady is defending the title in Tampa And he leads the team down and scores at the end of the game The reason Brady wins all those championships, the reason like guys like Kobe and these guys won a lot of games like you think about like the Sacramento game with Lakers. is because everyone on the court believes guy is destined to win, right? kind of at the nix of with Jayalen Brunson stumbled into it with Brunson. So they just like if we can hang around. he guys that guy but does the other team believe it too because Badyies on the field. everyveryone belie both teams believe it. Yeah and like okay, here comes like they win now. and Stafford drove them right back down the field. won the game. and then went on to win the Sper Bowl. He's a special guy. Like to overcome that kind of stuff, that's it's like like Kurt Silling. whatever you think about Kurt Silling should be in the Hall of Fame obviously when When guys like roous and Tino home runs at the end of the games. That signals this ain't your year, especially two thousand one. nine and eleven and headed like in New York and the Yankees are destined to win But a guy guy like Kurt Schilling's like not so fast, right? Like I don't what was it Destiny, whatever in destiny or What he have It was like were strippers or whatever Mystique and destiny or I forgot what two words it was, but everyone was using that New York that the Yankees are going to win. Yeah and they and and the the the the retort was Those are, you know That's all they. I kind of still can't believe they didn't win that year. Be part of it was becausecause Rivera got thinginged up in the ninth, which was inconceivable in the moment. Aually was evenal singles. E worse than that. Rivera, who's one of the best fielding players at his position of all time. Yeah turned around. game was over double play ball turn around and through into center field Right? likeike stuff like that happens and they you bring the infield in you get a little and pop out. But the point is when you have a guy like that on your team It like All that kind of team of destiny stuff on the other side goes away. Staffords that kind of guy. Yeah. He had to overcome Brady to do that. That's why when Stafford has the ball late in the gu. I thought the Rams were going to win the game late in the game Even thoseough Sahawks, you knew were a little bit better than them, but it's like they got staffered The Miles Garret piece Um Most people know what he looks like Now you could say this for most football players Like if Carl Anthony Towns walked into a restaurant. Most people know what he looks like because we see him in a basketball court And football players, for the most part, we don't know what they look like. I think people know what the quarterbacks look like You don't think they know what Garret looks like? I think so. I don't know, like what my son know what he looks like? I'm just thinking like the recognizability long had his helmet off on the field. for we know famously So I think there's just a level of fame that he doesn't have that this rams thing is going to immediately solve. He was this underground He's playing at Sunday, one o'clock ET gettingting the shit kicked out of. hisis team's getting the shit kicked out of the every game basically He's on one Thursdayight football game a year, probably against Steelers and maybe a crappy Monday night game And then everyone is telling us how gr he is, but You know, sometimes this happens. I remember this happened to Mos in the mid two thousands when He just became irrelevant for like years when you're just on shitty teams year after year, Moss went from is he going to challenge Jerry Rice as the greatest wide out ever to which like debatable. Yeah at the time. And then it was like, well, I guess that didn't happen. And then it was like,h wait, maybe it did happen when he went to New England It was we got him for a fourth round pick That's how bad he was on the Raiders. That I have him We might have talked about this. I have him seconds. Wh would be second over of Moss? I feel like rice one moss two is kind of set in stone. No question. People try to push the Trell Owens case every once in a while and Well just like, doesn't T murder matter? I love TO but murered These two teams, right Well, the thing Atio gets a little bit of the chemistry stuff has to matter a tiny bit when you're talking about the greatest of the greats. Fine, but then you also have to give them credit for it. then this was me out when He plays in the Super Bowl broken leg. He is the best player on his team. I think he had eight catches, seven eight catches. He is arguably the best player in the game. We couldn't cover him And he was criticized heading into that game. It's he's a selfish player. And I was thinking, wait, this guy's rep is so bad in the media that playing with a broken leg, he's criticized for being selfish and then he's the best player on the field was tough.'s got a lot at how annoying he was in the two thousands. But also how great he was The A.J Brown pieces has just a whiff of that because he was unhappy with the Eagles, watching from my TV in LA He should have been unhappy. I didn't understand anything about their offense so the pats get him Not last Rumored sir I don't know, Th three months. It was pretty Once the Eagle started drafting receivers, it was pretty quar it was going to happen. And they gave up a twenty first I wish say had top ten protected it, but they don't do it in football. Yeah, why don't they do? Is thatt Are they allowed to do it in football? They are allowed to do it. They just you could have done it where it's like make it topop fifteen at least, right? becausecause if Drake M get hurt, something happens, you wind up in the middle of the pack. That's the NFL. Well, it was interesting that they didn't make it twenty seven because I think If I'm the Patriots I wouldn't have because of the schedule Super Bowl hangover U If you're going to stink in twenty seven or twenty, twenty seven is probably the safeer you that's the pats not. I've figured that's the Eagles. I think that's the pats. I figured that's the Eagles saying, all right. we don't want a late first round iss practically like a second round pick Why don't we roll the dice and see maybe something happens in the next year or two? No I think it was the Eagles because they're they're playing the percentages of what happens to team that loses a Super Bowl and gets the first place schedule and Everything right sayinger before think it's the Eagles wanting the next Yeah. I. I think the Eagles want Not this year, but I think I think the Patriots wanted it to be twenty eight because of some fear of twenty seven. What could happen. If I was the Eagles, I would have wanted twenty seven. Really? Yeah. No, I want twenty eight because the thing about AJ Brown And this happened with Jayalen Hurz. What was Hurz's big problem before they got brown was that he couldn't see the middle of the field Yeah right Then you get a guy who and like is AJ Brown a little past it? Yeah, he's probably not as good as he was a couple of years ago But he's never we don't know they didn't throw the ball. Yeah, right. You don't know. But he's also his it's his age. It's the whole thing. He's never a guy who relied on speed. It's not like, o Oh my God. AJ Brown is a one on one matchup nightmare because he gets all this separation. He's a nightmare because he doesn't need separation. He's going to catch the ball, right So a guy like that who's tough who can go across the middle of the whole thing makes a guy like Jalen Hurts go from Hey, is he going to work out to almost two timees Super Bowl MVP And you got a guy like Drake May, who was in a version of the situation Hurz was in. he looked lost in the Super Bowl. You get a receiver like that. And that could make it that can easily have him taking the next step, especially in the moment of truth There's a lot of good stats with AJ Brown against man to man where he's basically like the most unstoppable guy in the league. Yeah because that was the biggest issue with the pats. Like they none of the receivers could get open as the year went on You could feel it. then in the playoffs when they start going against these awesome defenses You know, not to make excuses for Drake because he, you know, he I don't think he was healthy but he was also really bad in the Sper Bowl Th then they do that all twenty two shots and you watch what he's looking at Yeah And everybody's just blanketed. But they would have like the straight line guys open every once in a while digs, but really the second half of the yearir wasn't open as much. But that's the thing about Adri Brown. He's kind of never open, but he's always open. Yeah. Like wherever he is, you can throw them the ball and there's a good shot. he's going to catch it and that That is like the perfect player. for a young quarterback who needs to take a step forward He had one hundred and forty five targets in twenty two and one hundred and fifty eight and twenty three And then the last two years was ninety seven and one hundred twenty one. And it added up when you watched it because And I get it. like they were doing that weird math thing with the possessions where it was like we're going to shorten the game because we have a better team. play felt like it was thirty five, forty seconds and pace of the team just seem way off But if I'm AJ Brown, I' He likeike he clearly got fed up with it. Now he's on this Patriots team that desperately needs him. He's going to have Dobs next time him They have a bunch of young receivers. lots of lines Okay can be slightly better. Eagles the eagles just had Their offense was ridiculous last year. Yeah, right There was no real reason for. I mean, you can you could try to rationalize. it was bad ide in in you had the empirically, it was a bad idea, right? Well, which part? like how To me, it's like you're going to pay fifty million a year to Hurz and you're going to pay sixty million to two receivers. And then you're basically going to walk the ball up the court. Like you've built this team that's supposed to do this That dominates both sides of the line. Yeah. and now you're playing a different style than the Tami Bat, which I never really fully understood. I know it was frustrating with the Philly fans. So the best case And he's a vable guy, which we You know, is a big piece of this. Freel loves his guys Pable needed this, by the way, Mbe there's something good to happen He got AJ. It was all worth it. Yeah, you know, it's been two weeks without a story and now he's got AJ Brown. But that's good when coaches should get good get their guys. Yeah Well, I was looking at the wide receiver trades because Best case was Muss When it gets in trouble, When you give up like big capital like a first round pick, the Cowboys gave up two for Joey Galloway that year and he immediately got hurt Roy Williams, Percy Harin, people like that That's where you get in trouble. You don't get in trouble when you're getting one of the best receivers in the league. Actually, everyone thinks that like forever now, it's like, quarterbacks the most important guy, obviously, right? And then everyone's thinking, well, then his protection is this those left tackle Yeah then it's defenseive end off the right side to go pass Russia because that and that no, it's actually quarterback one. One A legit elite receiver That one one A Yeah. That's that's's so much more valuable than every other position. It's that that's what the league is now. And like by the way, you bring up Randy Moss The giants got plexical burris They won the Sperow Then the next year, he literally shoots himself in the foot, right? And they don't have Plexical burths. And I'm thinking at the time well, no one receiver. No, it was night and day difference, right? Like when you have an actual elite top five guy top ten guy. Other than the quarterback, the most important position on the field, but a lot about the eleven giants so annoying to me. We didn't have that their second giant Super Bowl. No, we didn't have that, but but what we had we had some good receivers. Terrible loss To me, that loss is much worse for me as a Pats fan than zer seven. Can I tell you zero seven They beat us Second one. eleven's ridiculous. That second one was so amazing as a Giants fan. I was more exhausted after watching that game than I remember at any point in my life because when I could have stole the Super Bowl. You didn't have a better team Imagine a little kid growing up in Boston somewhere watching that game. And all he knows, his first memory is that they somehow the perfect season. They're about to be anointed the greatest team in the history of sports, right? Yeah. And they somehow lose in the most unlikely way like the Tree cash It's happening again Again, it like it's like a train wreck for a patriots fan. Do you go like that. I went to today I was in LA for From the moment Brady had the safety on the intentional grounding that I'm still don't know how that was the call And the game was just off We'd gck on one leg The giants whoo was it Brandon Jacobs was it was just a weird giants offense. The was a lot of like the score was always weird the whole game. It was like one of those games where it was like fifteen to twelve. You let them score intentionally to try every every piece of that game was kind of off. the and then the manning h, like you hear Belichv say And this is what Belichk did at his best. takeake away your first and second option. Beat us with your third option. He did That's Okay I was in the end zone where Eli had that throw Yeah. The throw was incredible. Yes of it's one of the best thows. I think what was he on? like his own eight or his own nine or I don't remember, but he just like it was a fucking frozen rope. It was only five yards catching the guy like this in the one spot where he could get it. And that's if you're making the Eli Hall Fame case which is It's whatever he was doing on that last giants drive, even though he tried to throw it to us three times. It was He was scrambling for his life and just creating shit and it somehow works C then that man ans therow the same reason that Payyton. A lot of his career was bad in the playoffs. Yeah. becausecause when you are the chosen one and you are expected to be perfect, right Man, there's a lot on the line in those moments. When you're his kid brother It's like there's no what like if I fail, big deal So why not go for it, right? Like there's no fear of failure for a guy like Ek. Do you think now that now that we have Dart the face of the giants Does he get compared to Eli or is it is it too far gone now He's more talented. Yeah, you know, it's a different game now, but no, I mean Theina guys just kind of over here He's a hall of fam first of all, he had an Ironman streak playing in bad weather City like for the with the wind and everything at like Meadowlands was not. So that's the real haall fame case is him in the playoff games He freezing cold in Lambo candlestick twice against Farin Rogers and takaking huge, huge, huge punishment in those games houghest the toughest motherfucker and that's I don't See, I' have trouble with the Hall of Fame in general because I feel like we've just increase the capacity of the restaurant to ridiculous It's inevitable ruin that. But it's inevitable because once a whoever the worst guy is who gets in That will now be the benchmark and people say, well, he's better than this guy. Wh isn't it? All due respect to Michael Cooper, but that's where the NBAall of Fame is now. Like Michael Cooper's in So if you go through the next team right now, it's like who could make the hall of fame from the next? It's like wouldn't make the Hall of fame from the Ks. It may be have threearters who could do it. Yeah I mean, Towns is probably a haall of Famer at this point. and it's nuts, but it's Brnson. Yeah then the question would be OG. Pi can stay healthy for couple of years. And then it's like, what if Mcel Bridges plays seventeen hundred games and is the number four guy on title team. Yeah. I think I don't know anymore. I don't know what a Hall favor is. But but you have to like Cooper, you could hang your hat on something that defined him atertain awwesome roer. Right. L you know. So although if Bridges if Bridges keeps playing like he's two different guys regular season playoffs He's like during a regular season, it's like you five firsts on that. Are you out of your mind? He's a nice three ind D guy. but that's it. three ind D pl you feel the Atlanta series it seem like a catastrophe. very playoffs, he's like this though. Yeah. Like his defense is unbelievable. He's hitting shots. He was great Maxi. I love how he figured out how to play with Brunson and Towns in the playoffs for some reason. it clicked 's just they changed the way use towns, really? Yeah, That's the whole thing. We got to talk about that the finals. We're going to take one break and hit the finiles. All right, the twenty twenty six NBA fininals is here New York. San Antonio. We're going to make some picks U I'm going to probably share picks for at least a few of the games on my Twitter feed from Fandalsports book Um For the series though, since we're doing this on a Tuesday the spurs to win the series. I like the spurs in six, which is five to one odds, but I think Burs would be my my series pick as well. I wouldn't mess with the Wbiyama is almost definitely the finals MVP. you're just better off taking the u taking the Spurs money line at that point. So Uh game to game Definitely takeakes San Antonio on game one. U and then we'll see how it goes. Usually home team wins game one. to becomes A little bit of a tester out slug fest When I bet I bet with Fando, it it's a brand I trust, easy to build NBA bets on Fando as well and fine futures, all kinds of things you want to do. you're getting great odds Pats in Parlays boosts every day. Get your winnings instantly Fanuel playay your game. This episode is brought to you by Expedia Family vacations are great. My favorite family vacation ever. I went to cover the twenty twelve Olympics in London I brought my family. My son was five, my daughter was seven, and we were in London for three weeks and we went to Paris for another week and it was just awesome Our kids were the right age to travel That's my number one family vacation I've ever had. But we've had plenty of those trips. everyveryone's excited, but you get the planning part Sudden it feels like there's many movie pieces. You you start talking yourself out of it t find the right flight, can't find the right hotel. That's why Expedia is a total game changer. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals cars ivities Everything's in one spot, which makes the whole process way easier Bundle and save feature It's huge The more you bundle, the more you can save because you can book what you need now. addd more later Keep saving on the way Book your flight today, attach your hotel to borrow and you're still good So if you're thinking about your next family getaway, bundle your flights, cars, hotels, vacation rentals and save Savings vary, members only. Book your next trip with Epedia This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The World Cup is finally here and the coolest thing right now, FIFA World Cup launch edition on Netflix, a fast and fluid game where your phone is the controller and your TV is the stadium Play as as any of the forty eight teams in sixteen real world stiamidents included in your membership. Yeah Go to the games tab on your TV and play Fefld World Cup launch. addition now on Netflix Our roll battery is the same It's like castking ev full socer players are the same Take Messi, the most decorated player ever Is there any other player who has achieved that? No, just him. Now take Duracl. Is there any other battery with power boost ingredients inside? No, just Duracl. Remember, goats only trust goats because they're built different. and Messi only trusts Duracl Wh'll be picking for the finals They check a lot of boxes for the nobody believes in us pick. They're like, maybe right now, but it doesn't I wish we don't know the Rabinson situation. That's the whole thing He's really there six man. He doesn't he's really you've seven guys. Yeah, including Robinson. Yeah Shamot and him off the bench. McBride, we'll see. We'll see what McBride looks like again I know, but we'll see what he looks like against San Antonio. Yeah Robinson you need for because you need fouls and he's also a great playoff performer Like he really is a great defensive guys don't thinkink of like that, but like watch them play in the playoffs. you go Championship player. I want him on my team. He's Weby Kryptonite too because Zach and I talked about this little on Saturday The way to kind of hit and Hartenstein did a little bit in the last series, but When Weemby's playing that box in one zone, whatever the fuck he's doing And he's especially with Brunson where they'll have guys on Brunson and then when be kind of shifting over and you leave the back of the basket open And that's like Mitch' specialty. It's like you're not going to box me out. I'm just going to get ten offensive rebounds That was what OKC anytime they felt like they had momentum, it was on the offensive board. And they need mitch for that for anything. Nicks are good on the offensive glass. Yeah. Yeah. OG would be the other one N seem like they're healthy except for Robinson game a huge by crazy. That's a huge part of it. Like health this time of year, they happen to be very healthy right now. Well not playing basketball always helps No question. just second of the nine days off and as the as the road team The long like if you have a long layoff, I hate to have homeome courourt. Be you're you could give it up game one before you get that out of your system, you know, the rust gone. But if you're on the road, so what you lose game one Now you're arrested, you have a good shot at splitting on the road and taking home court So it's like kind of working out in their favor. and they beat them in the cup on a neutral site. They they came a possession away from beating them in San Antonio. R. They they have a way playing The teams are even. They're even because the Kicks slow it up and and when they have their version of the death line up on the floor They can hit shots late in the clock. So they're slowing up the pace and scoring late in the clock. And that's kind of stymies the Spurs offense, I think Here's what. I'm going to pick the spurse Here's what I think really hurts the Knicks in this series is all the layoffs between the games because they have this two two one eleven schedule and they've spaced stuff out. And I think that's really helpful to Weenby one hundred percent. I felt like in the OKC series It was a constant battle of You know, they were just games where he just seemed like he he was dead. No why they won the series because they could play him twenty eight minutes in game six. right? right? If he had to play thirty four thirty eight minutes in game six, they may have lost That trip that double overtime game in game one, which just wreaked havoc on both rosters, but you could really feel it. I just think Especially after seing him in person a couple of times and you've seen him in person right It's just he's not really meant to run up and down a basketball court. likeike that's not what God created a seven foot seven guy to do is just run up and down on a wooden floor like that And he does it and he's about as graceful as you can like him and Kareem are the two tall guys I've ever seen who seemed graceful as they went up and down, but You start throwing forty two, forty three minutes All the stuff he has to do offensively All the hard roles they do with him to kind of create three points. And it's just E the way more loses out. like he'll close out. the play is lost. likeike the guy's going to hit the shot. But just because Weemby gives the effort to close out and put his hand up Yeah. I think they shoot I'd love to know what the numbers are. I'll bet you shooting percentages get cut in half. You have a guy shooting a three Weby's just he's not in position. He's not going to get there in time, but just the fact that he can kind of blot out the sun. like you can't see the basket at the last second, guys who you expect to hit the shot, don't hit the shot There was a great clip that somebody took a chat in game six were in the same possessition, he tried to challenge Weenby twice and just kind of bailed on it the second time. It was like, okay Like he was going to take a three from the corner. And part of the problem with Chet Net series was he's got one of those long developing jumpers. And Weby was always able to come out and challenge it. So then he deced, all right, I'm going to take him off the dribble. and he beat him off the dribble been mo and it's like, oh, he's going to block this. and he just kind of bailed and That seven foot one. He's not used to be like he's not, you know, it's like, why can't a Lty hit aefty because they never see the leftfties, right? When does Chet see a guy who's him, but three, four inches taller and you got to credit Weby. I love this about Wendby. When he threw that elbow If a guy's hitting you low and the ref doesn't do anything about it, Hit them low back. Do it harder Right? He'll get the message Wendby swung that elbow and it changed a little bit the way they were playing them Right? Oh, excuse me Andba hed and then when he ordered his team and leared it code reed. Y. Code reed. little fuck you from Wemby you want him on that line. Yeah. So like yeah, like can't handle the truth. And then he has this thing in him where he looks everyone's like come from there were kids and check out MVP of this Weemby sees Chet He sees the team he's on. He knows That's my guy. That's my rival And he let them know at every Chance. Yeah. I own you to the point where Chet started believing it Right? Like everyone's writing Ched off now, but I don't know. He could learn from this. likeike you could he could actually grow from it. but He got his heart to like when wheny took his heart And everyone, the whole world saw it, right? So He did that intentionally. He knew like that's my guy. got I got to make sure he knows he doesn't have a shot But we talked about it on Saturday night about the Drexler Jordan That was a little like that too where Jordan You know, the people like These guys, who's better And that was a real thing that was happening for about a week and then Jordan was just like, all right, I've had enough for this. He took it personal Yeah, so The reason I'm picking All due respect to the Kicks and they do check a lot of my Nobody believes in us. The Robinson thing worries me I do think they have a really good team. play the Kicks. Like if you were creating a team to kind of stop Brunson, especially in the fourth quarter, you would say You want these defensive guards and swings that could switch comombined with this big tall guy in the back to challenge all like the twelve to fifteen footer stuff. I just think it's a bad matchup. So the way the way for the Kicks beat them obviously is hope Wby wears down. Hope this firstur three point shooting is in there crowd is going to come through in your home games and then just get an awesome OG Bridges combo If Josh Hart is hrees If Josh Hart is hitting from outside, R are hard you know that's going to happen one of the games a question how many timess going to happen And then can you get the offensive rebounds? like I see the path for it I just think this is like a generational thing now And I'm not going against it. And I felt the whole year. I was like, are the sppurs really since December? Are they the ninety Bows or the ninety one Blls? And I think they're telling us they're the ninety one Bows. Well first of all The ninety Bowls were the best team in basketball. Pippman got a migraine in game seven. Yeah, right? likeike, you know, otherwise they probably everyone wass like, Oh, Jordan had to w. No, he didn't. He needed one other all star with them. He didn't and then in game seven, he didn't have them. You can't beat the chams by yourself. they weren't they weren't dominant in the playoffs not year they They took next year they fucking destroyed That was also Baby Pippen like Pippen made his first all star game But he wasn't what he would be the next year. He became into his prime, right? one hundred percent. I would say that I agree with you one hundred percent about your analysis of why the Spurs would win gotot me thinking the sppurs like I was I said all season, but from like the middle of the season. I said the Spurs are the best team in basketball They're going to win the championship But by the time the Kicks were finished playing them the third time, I thought If the Kicks come out of the East, they would have like a forty percent shot of be this bd. I think forty percent' the right number. For what you identified, which is and it occurred to me in game seven actually. Really the number one name is Castle Castle and Harper are puppies And they're even like out in front of themselves like a puppy gets out in front of himself. Yeah. but like they're sureure bred puppy. L these guys are already dogs, right? They're already a problem. They don't even know what they're doing yet. They're overly exuberant on defense. they can wind up in foul trouble because of how they're bumping around out there.. But because of Castle's size and his tenacity It's like you kind of don't want that Overgrown. You know eager puppy at his size on these smaller Kicks players, you know, like him. they could us put champenne on him. And there're they again who's taller. They're also like big strong guys like Brunson, yes,s he's strong, but he's short Michael Bridges is not built like those other guys. It's like there's there's a lot of kind of size and strength. and like youthful exuberance on the on the perimeter defender types on the spurs that I think are a bad matchup for the Kicks We talked about On Saturday night mentioned on the podcast that it was Zach. we were like, what is Castle? I don't even know what he Who is who's the castle Dppelganger So I also sent emails These were the candidates. This is what got sent to me Guard Kawai. Yeah, Kawai. More defensive Duayne Wade Um More explosive Drew Haoe That's a good one. Um Bring here our test Ooh, that's I hadn't even thought of our test. That's a good one. Yeah, early our test. L our test could shoot for his time better than Castle can shoot for like I don't know what the league averages are off top of my head Test was a better shooter in his day than Castle is in his Gard, Jimmy Butler Another good one U Latrell Sprreewell Didn't really see that one, but it made me think U So Spree was a good defender. He was energetic. Yeah, but he was and I guess I see that because he was also athletic Lapper guy. who didn't shoot it especially well But I just get to feel like Castle's going to be a shooter, a good enough shooter when it's all said and done Better offense, Marcus smart in Hein's word, Th those were all the comparisons I got from all these very basketball players. just like Hinz how Hinz worord was just like he's a fall athlete on physical He's not just a receiver. He's a fkable player. right. I can do in traffic. I like who did you say who was second to last H, Marcus Smart That's interesting If Sart were bigger and I think he's a better offensive player and a better athlete than Marcus Smart was, but I like I do too. The way he the way younger Marcus Smart how balls to the wall he was all the time, which I think Castle has. Also one of the things I love about Castle and the Surse team in general is They don't seem to wear mistakes bad shooting or gets psyched out or value possessions. they just kind of go. They're not true. shhort memories. Yeah, when you're talking about like puppies, purebred puppies, like they're just kind of running around and they don't They don't really carry their past with them. And and it's like, that's why you say to the ninety or ninety one bulls. in my like the way I interpret that is is that short memory Like, is that going to? too much on the side of not valuing the possessions in crunch time because they just go. Yeah. Or is that actually good for them because they don't worry about it? And if they don't score on that possession or they turn the ball live turnover and it leads. two or three points, they're fine. It's gone and they're going to do it again. And because they're so aggressive, sometimes it's going to work The other reason I think I'm taking the spurs and I don't feel great about it, but competition in the east It has to be said like they beat they fall to one Atlanta. they change their offense I love the way they played. They to me, they looked like the twenty fourteen spurs crossed whatever Brunson's doing. Um that Atlanta team when you look back brrutal team L they had like five guys like that were playable. They' one center Um couldn't really rebound. McCollum died as the series went along. They had no kind of guy who want to run by a point though. Yeah. and they could have probably should have gotten swept They play Philly the next r and Beed's already done and Beed put one week of the season. he was done Right? And now you do is shut down Maxi and you're good And then that Cleveland team. There's just the mess What the yes But they weren't that game one loss was just One of the most egregious blown. You knew it was a sweep after that. after that it swe' when you lose like that, it's coaching combined with like them not running back and they they just rolled over So you go from that and meanwhile, here are the sppurs. are just going through this gauntlet Portland was like You know, probably probably would have been like a five or a six seed in the they're a tough team in and they showed up Yeah, and I don't know, that OKC team they beat. I just I take that seriously. I thought OKC was An incredible team in Jer Williams. really. Yeah. one to missing one of the best guys's missing their second best player. Yeah. That's a lot It's a lot to miss your second best player. Like if if this well Spurrs don't if the sppurs didn't have the Aaron Fox, they'd have lost Right L the live ball turnovers were That's the thing. So the sppurs didn't have Fx for a couple games and then he didn't seem right really intontil game seven And then the Harper thing, Harper in the middle of the series is just a useless and then kind of came back as it went along. but Um But so think just think the I think this spurs nine new one B both so I'm I'm going Surs and five. The thing about the Kicks is, I think it's going to be a long series. I do think that, but the thing about the Kicks is They're not beating these teams by ten or twelve points. I get it. You're feeding everybody into a wood chipper Right? They are destroying teams. They have two losses and by a point. and they' beating the brakes off of everyone. and the team that they are not compared to enough twenty sixteen, they did lose in the finals. Warriors They have a death lineu exxcept it's a better shoot. they don't have the two greatest shooters of all time in the death lineup, right when Josh Hart is hitting his shots. That's why I say if you want to look at a few key things, if Josh Hart is hot, more often than he's cold in this series The Nicks are virtually impossible to beat because because everyone, like all five guys killing you at that point. R How do you guard that, especially with offense running through towns who's like not only the best shooting big ever, maybe. But he's also like kindind of Yokch in a way that I didn't understand, right? I'm not saying he's as good as Yokch. I'm saying he's doing some of there. It was impressive. So so like I think that's really what it comes down to. If Josh Hart is hot in this series, this is going seven games and the Nicks might win. You're probably right. I'm going to amend to Nickixon six too the sppurs in six. I'm sorry Spurs in six R and slip. I'm going to amend the sppurs in six because you're right. I forgot to factor in the one Josh Hark game. That's it That be two or three five for seven from three or something steep, right? So correct score urs in six is five to one That also sets up for the the devastating Everyone at MSG trying to send the series to a seventh game and just the all time. By the way, this is't So where didd you have Nixon six or seven? If the next one, it'll be a seven game series, I think But But by the way, you said about twenty When you said about what you said about Wemby The thing about him because he's so big so everything's magnified, you can see all the detail. is it's very apparent when he's fatigued Right? He looks uncoordinated all of the sudden. He's like the most coordinated big guy you've ever seen in your life you've never seen a guy that tall, right But yeah, he's so coordinated at that size And when he is fatigued, you can see, oh, where'd the coordination go You know, even on lobs and stuff. can't do a little like Almost like a little kid where little kids start falling down and. You know in that. Yeah Be but the guy's physiology is just like, this is unexplored territory and he is doing everything in his power to make to give himself the best possible shot But that schedule where there are essentially no travel days was brutal in the Western confonference finals for him and more rest It's also why good for Weenby. It's also why guys like LeBron as they hit their late thirties. It just becomes impossible to put together four straight rounds to win a title. Definitely on the defensive You have to have younger players. and that's been the thing over and over again that we've seen this decade is combination of how the regular season got much harder. It became harder just for guys to carry big minutes, but then you get into that every other day in the third round You have to have the younger dudes for that U So you have next and seven, that would be eight to one Let's talk about I have not yet made my pick at I do think like are to make it on game overver with Rich Paul? I think I will make it on Game overver Do it make Rich Paul. I would say that it's If I had to handicap it, I think it's a six thousand forty type series favoring the sppurs But forty's a pretty damn good shot for the Kicks and I have to think if I like their chances. I So I bet on the surs for I had the sppurs before the series. before after game five a hedge on OKC for game six because I thought the Harper Fox thing, I just didn't think those guys were there off course, Santntoni won Then I doubled down and bet on San Antonio Game seven Mart. U just because of the Wimby piece. And I think ultimately like I was thinking about it I was like, I just think oneby is the best part in the league now. and I don't want to go against him in a game seven I've been saying this since like the all star break. Yeah, but you still you have to do it in the playoffs's a different level. you got to see like the eb and flow of the games, the fatigue, the How do you handle foul trouble? How do you handle when the handle when the refs aren't giving you calls? But you know what he has But now I think he's now I think he's there. He's tasted it. That Okayy thing was such a good seasoning for this finals. look it's a hunch until you see him do it My hunch was, he's the best player in the league, but you're right. You have to see him do it in this circumstance But the thing about Weenby that I love that I then I thought middle of the season he's better than Yokach, right? better than SG. I don't think SGA iss in the conversation with Yokach and Wembi. better Yogkich is There's a fllorida Weemb's game because of the defense. right. He can't really have a bad game ever. He's such a defensive president. So when his offense is clicking, it's like, well He he might he's a very good chance if he stays healthy it's right hs a couple threes and a couple of turnarounds to get some fouls to That's all it takes. But there's a good chance he winds up the greatest player of all time, But health is going to be a big thing just because we've never seen a guy this size before Right? So and the other thing about Yokich Bill is downown to possessions in the playoffs, your season's on the line, there's like two minutes left Overcome it Jamal Muray was taken out of the series, who's normally a very clutch player because you have a six foot eight wing defensive specialist Yeah who's doing an unbelievable job on him. So now you have Goubert, who's also a great defensive player on Yokish and it's like, Okay, Yokich, do it though. It's two possessions. Can you make up two possessions in two minutes? We've seen this from super great players throughout history and Rich and I play a game nowadays on the show. where it's like v Does this player need to win or does he love the game So for example, or love to play, N to win, love to play. For example The player that best epitomizes needing to win and loving to play on the highest level possible is Magic Johnson That dude like Larry Byird needed to win more than he loved to play. Same thing with Michael Jordan, right? There are other guys who love to play more than they need to win, for example Kevin Durant, right clearly loves to play. Does he need to win? It doesn't seem that way, right? Wh he would really people who ut him above bird and they should not. It's because of that. He don't need to win like that. U This the LeBron issue for years. Yes. He loved to play more than he needed. I think LeBron does need to win, but not as much eleven finals then he flipped it. Yeah Yokich. I don't know if he's a basketball genius. I don't know if he loves to play or he needs to win I don't know if he has either And O Wembie has both Yok could ripped through everybody in twenty three you' got to get credit for that He's one he's he's among the greatest players world. I'm giving him loves to play. I think you guys are wrong. Yeah, I think he does seems so pissed off at the press conf you't want to go right to. And he's from fucking Serbia. He is there's listen, his basketball brain could be like studied. It's ridiculous. He's he's Leron James Larry Bird, Magic Jam him. I'd move him more towards problem that was a problem for Sck Is it fun to be you when you play? Shack was You know, I never Shaq was immensely frustrating for me because I never felt like he was in shape the way he should have been. I never understood the free throws It always felt like there was more there, but he still ended up being one of the best fifty never. do the Rick Barry. Come on. do the grandfather. Just figred it I also think it would have been incredibly unfun to be shack for eight months a year playing basketball when everybody's like, we can't stop you. So we're allowed to do We're just going the reps are going to be like, Yeahah, this isn't fair. Do do what you need to do. Bang them in the back, pull his shoulders down And I honestly think with Yokage it's becoming a little similar where The way he's defended, Wendy we're starting to see it. Like some of the stuff OKaseC was doing against him. I just don't think it iss legal I don't you should be able to go in the previous series. You should be able to run to your spot without somebody like pushing back like they have a blocking sled It's because he's seven seven They they let it go. I've had a big problem with the officiating U all series. I feel like they officiated it straight up and down at San Antonio and gave the Thunder the whistles in OKC. Like I agree. And like It is so It's already, there's already a rule on the books about it's it's a non onportsman like tech. If you flop Come on, Rf, everyone and everyone can see it on TV in real time with like ninet ways three. ninety percent accuracy, you know. Mbe not every time, but like and then go review it afterwards And where did I someone maybe you said this. someomeone said, mayaybe Zach said it I had of flopping flopping points. That's what I want to you review it after. Oh yeah, you did. but I really think just Tch It should two of them and you should be suspended again. or that a yellow card Yeah, like yellow card and soccer. Yes, like I didn't like we did their yellow card. Yeah. One more of those and you're out, right? Like and then it would just stop and the product would get better. And also you're right. any kind of guy who's seen as having an unstoppable physical advantage likeike Shack or like, um I'm sure this happened to Wilt, but I didn't see it L Ron happen to Will who started that's when he developed that awful turnaround. he had D'd have this little spin because he didn't want to get fouled and he was tired of getting hit. By the way, with Kareem, they were just like, no, you can't dunk. likeike rightight. Yeah. just no And so we guys comees up with. So it would be interesting now because if you're allowed to do this stuff in the seventies and eighties that we can do now with shoving a guy before he can get to his spot Miale would have been in trouble. Him would have been in trouble. It's just It's this new thing that I don't really know why they've allowed it the way they've allowed. I hate it. And it seems so fit so like so to legislate out tanking is difficult. and I don't know they're trying to address it. I don't know if they did successfully. We'll see empirically whether it works or not or it helps. But this is like There's a problem. The fans don't like what's happening. is a so there are like a million easy solutions and they just refuse to do them, Brad The real reason you're here is coming up after this break This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, likeike restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responssees set upp required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus Pays checkout is offered by your banks and credit unions. So when you shop online at participating merchants, your cards appear in one place, ready to use and kept up to date. And the best part, your actual card number isn't shared when you check out because boundaries are healthy. Like no work emails after six. One small step for boundaries, one big leap for check out. PS. It checks out. Activation required. See pS d. com to learn more. Terms and conditions apply Your summer weekends fill up fast, but Crocs has your back. 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I think about the two thousand eight Celtics win the title, obviously pisted and shocking the Lakers and then those Three straight Lakers ones in a row, three titles that I still have trouble swallowing because I don't like the Lakers But the best team of that whole decade was the two thousand one Lakers which almost swept the playoffs. they came with it an Alan Iverson. Overtime loss. of a of actually sweeping the finals. So anyway That was quite an error relelive vintage logos and timeless icons from that era or any other era W the N AirMA Hardwood Classics collollection available in a wide range of silhouettes includluding Conic Fitted fifty, nine fifty or adjustables like the nine hundred forty of frame. and nine seventy and some great hardwood classics apparel too. New aiccaap. com to shop now and use one time code Ringer. twenty percent off your first order All right, Max, it's education time. Okay We need to I have a nice big picture of settled down juice for everybody ad of the fridge. It's just the. It just happened. This is the moment we became old, right? Like this It just happened. Well, but we used to do this when we were younger and we were kids where you just think what you're seeing recently has to be the greatest thing that ever happened. A picture of settled down, Juice, a big picture of this happen in your house? Was this was an expression here you don't pipe down, you're gonna have a big picture, big helping glass with ice cubes. Jayalen Brson Jalen Brunson There's two separate things happening right now. There's two paths for him One is New York immortality And then the other is where do you rank in the greatest Knicks? He's not the greatest nick yet just because they made the finals of course. I don't think people there's people out there that are like, he's the greatest snick. They made the finals. It has So I want to go through some of the history of the actual greatreatest Knicks But let's move into the New York side. Wh is Can Can we establish a criteria for greatness before we do this? Yeah, I'm ready to do whatever you want. So let I wan to just establish a criteria for greatness. Would you wan to do the New York side first or the Nick side first anyw way you want, but like like let's establish like what we're I think part of the problem is When kids It's not just recency bias or you know, you give a guy a book and he reads the book. it's only book he ever read that's everything he knows, right? Like, you know, it's something Yeah. There's A conflation between better and greater and kids correctly, intuitively understand everyveryone now is better than everyone before That is correct kids. you're right about that. Everyone now is better Just about more or less than everyone before. it's the carars analogy. If I had a twenty twenty six Porsche. It would drive better than a nineteen eighty two Because you built that new platform on what came before. Yeah. You didn't just invent it from whole cloth. you saw, you improved, you improved, you improved. Okay. If you in the one sport that can be objectively measured, track and field. a stopwatch on Jesse Owens and the stopwatch on the tenth best printer in the world today and no objectively Jesse Owens is not as good as the tenth best. But that's I don't think that's how this is why I wrote my book. I don't think that's how you can think about it. I think you have to measure greatness by how you comparered it to everybody you were going. Correct because I'm talking about Bet Yeah. and the conflation is between better and greater The reason it sounds ridiculous to say the tenth best sprinter in the world, whose name you don't know is is better than Jesse Owens is because yeah, duh, no kidding. That's not what we're talking about. Does foxing work this way though? Yes, but There are influences in boxing, for example, the number of fights and stuff like that and the number of rounds that and the number of participants in this country that selected out for different characteristics once upon a time than it does nowadays You needed to be tougher. You needed to be more resistant to cuts. You needed to have a better chin. You needed to, you know, like ightes and yeah But the point is that we are talking about greater everybody. We're talking about how you did against your contemporaries. Does it matter if you're playing in a league with eight to twelve teams as Bill Russell did? Do you discount him? Yes, you do Do you discount Babe Buth? Ides agree and the tw. But how much of a discount Even when you discount b Rh gets a real discount because he was not playing against B any minorities basically. And he was And he was a bllack player on top of.. orr Latin American players anybody. He was people played against nobody other than white. But but no one who ever lived in any league ever dominated that league nearly to the extent that Ruth dominated his league. So even with the discount, he comes out number one I think with Bill Russell's discount, he probably comes out for something like that I would say Jordan LeBron, Kareim, Bill Russe. you want to argue Bill Russell be those four in whatever order you want, but those have to be the first four. I think Jordan has to be one. and then you can argue the the have Jordan one as well. But that okay. so that gets So first of all, we're talking about greater not better. Let's establish that first. And we're talking about, you do take discounts on the Babe Bruces and the Bill Russells. The question is after the discount, where is their greatness? Sometimes it's still number one, sometimes it's no longer Now the next thing Are we mostly valuing career or mostly valuing peak? When I got Bill James' historical baseball abstract, volume two is a Barmitzva present when I was thirteen years old, Yeah. It taught me comparative analysis really in a new way and And The thing I loved he did is he separated it into two lists, peak versus career R Sandy Cofax is peak or Nolan Ryan's. How do you compare Cofax and Ryan? If you just weigh their value, Nolan Ryan did a lot more Is that really what we mean though? Or are we talking about as long as they sustain their peak for a reasonable amount of time, peak, I favor peak I think that's what we're really talking about. I had when I made the Earl Monroe trying to figure out where he ranked. Yeah. I called it the Bill Walton Corollary. If a guy peaked for just two or three years is a truly great player That's more appealing than someone who never picked at all That's the difference of Bernard King versus Ewing Okay, agreed. thenen the question is how close so we both value peak over career, right? rightight? you went peaks for a year and a half and then as a six man on the eighty six Celtics and that's it I still had them in the top thirty five of my book Be his best year. He was the best guy in the league and took it to careareim. had I had a this is not exactly the same thing, but I had a producer John Crystal at HBO talked about Roy Jones in his prime And he said I know what I saw Right? Like you watch Bill Walton. I know what I saw. Well And that was that the Tony fight. What was that ninety four? Yeah And he beat him with one hand. No, he beat Hopkins with one hand. He beat Tony with both hands. So Well, that's Aaron Prior too. Aaron Prior's peak was absurd. So this is the LeBron Jordan argument. If you just weigh their win totals, right? their win shares, LeBron played twice as long. I don't think that's what we're talking about, att least it's not what I'm tal a good question is Okay, you can have one guy who played for twenty years or you could have another guy who played for en. the thirteen years and the peak of the thirteen years was better than the twenty Wh you would you rather want if you're starting a franchise What What kind of fan are you? Are you the kind of guy who wants to be a powerhouse team for twenty years with no championships Or would you like to maybe not be a powerhouse team for twenty years, but you wind up with three four championships. I'll take the championships. Like Bird was Bird came in the week and October seventy nin And for the next nine years, was either the best or the second best player in the league every single year and then was the best player three years in a row. You were always in the finals or near the finals with him. That's basically what Yok really was and no one really because their styles weren't the same. more than anyone was the original Michael Jordan. Right, becausecause their styles are so different And also racial, obvious like there are differences in the style of the play, The one' white guy, onees a black guy, the whole thing and Berg was compared to magic and Dr. Jay seemed to be the guy who like Jordan was the evolution of No There was Larry Bird who ranch sh it And then there was Michael Jordan who ran shit. likeike that's that that and honestly, I think Wemy's going to do that too. It seems to me feel like he's especially when you think this is probably the worst he's going to be over the next seven years unless he gets injured It just feels like the way when you're impacting every part of a game That's kind of the last level. I do feel like LeBron got there when he was on Miami. No doubt unquestionable. The closest I've ever seen in terms of value of a player to a prime Michael Jordan Like the one who made me think, hmm, that's getting close. was years two and three in Miami. The twenties, I really I've talked about this for. I love the twenty seven game winning streak In a way, like I like that more than either title for them. I got it started slow I just thought it was such a cool streak because it was just so atypical It was in the middle of the season. it wasn't like Like the warriors had that twenty four an hour or whatever they they had to start I think when you start a season with continuity, it's a little easier the middle of the season when you're just ripping off wins and you get a bullseye in your head around sixteen And you can't rest anyone and it's the rhythm of the schedule. you're playing four and five nights I don't think we're ever going to see that again. That was LeBron defending defending Not just switching on I need attending all five positions. You put LeBron on all five positions on theo think sixty percent Soot He knew exactly where his spots were on the floor. Yeah. He's a basketball genius. He was went but like you that's an unsustainable style of play for your whole career, I think, right? I think But you could do that for two or three years. I had this thing the wine bottle team where it's like pick a greatest team, but you have to pick the vintage year of what What bot of vine you'd want to order from that player's career twenty thirteen is the Leron year. Clearly like you could put that version of him Any team with any teammates and he would just be the most additive player possible. Right. No player ever could take a lower level group of guys farther. than that Lebron James orr fit in with a better group of like Or mebe it's like with other all stars. 'a you always think about like who are the best guys you could just put together? And you kind of have to have LeBron Bird Magic and Jordan on that forome and then just I love Magic Johnson. I love Magic Johnson You were just worried about the defense? No shooting because to play but I shooting better the shoot put LeBron at point. I'd have LeBron run the point Jordan at the two probably wind up putting Bird at the four and Hakim at the five And then and then maybe K D at the three because he doesn't need to really t He just kind of gets in the flow he could defend hes tall. You know, I'm trying to win Dunan would be in the conversation for me. Don't rightite, Duncan or Not over the just on the shooting. No you just gave me Duncan Bird LeBron. Jorted and magic, I'm pretty confident. The thing about Duncan is He needs the ball a little more. number one king for more of his career was a better passer. Hakim wasn't a good passer til later. The problem with Hakim is because I've done this before and every time I take Dunkin someone's like Hakim. And I'm thinking, Yeah, he just made my team a little bit better. He's just like by the time Hakim, if we're talking prime, not just career. Yeah, the two way stuff with him is nuts. I just feel like that the o three Duncan get slipped on likeike he basically beats the Lakers by himself. He was unbelieved He was, you know what Jim Lampley told me crushing everybody that if you want to know who Bill Russell was. He's Duncan, but not as good a shooter And I never, I never saw And Rusll play or willil play So I was like, oh, okay, I get it Ptamn good. Well, that's another thing with Wimby because I think Duncan had it. Everyone said Curry had it and it feels like feels like Wendby has it too of This culture they create, like the leadership and I always called it with Duncan. it was always the arms around the shoulders. There's certain leaders where they're just touching their teammates They're just very inclusive and they're like Denmothers almost. and he has that already It's too. All right. He's a serial killer. You you realize that, right No one is perfect. No L like like when you say the serial killer Like he kind of is as a competitor. I do think he has that side of like, I think he wants to destroy everybody but did to ch. Yeah but I mean, like, Wby is so perfect in terms of the what he's doing, how he's preparing himself, how he's going after it how he's using his talents, the whole thing, that it's like there must be something really wrong with this guy that I don't know about yet because he's perfect. Well, when was the last time you saw somebody celebrate like he did after they won game seven where you felt like it was completely authentic. Jordan after he won the first championship, maybe. R. Becauseuse like in like this is one of the things that's been terrible with tennis. And I don't know who started, Maybe it was aggassy, but it was like you win and then you just sink to the ground. You do that whole thing And now it's like this whole performative thing and you never because people are self conscious. L everyone even is not self conscious. He's not I don't feel like. he's not. He knows He ye, he's he's there's nothing to lovevel the guy That's why I'm suspicious. No one's this perfect. Okay. so greatest snakes. So we've established the peak versus sustained career but then also we about the greatness has to be when you're comparing to the other people in your era But we should take a slight discount. If you get past a certain like I'd say modern NBA starts, obviously absorption of the ABA teams three point shot, right? So you want to say sev thousand nine eighty, you want to say seventy six, seventy you could pick. I'd say seventy nine hundred eighty is the start of the modern era. That's fair, but I had when I did my book, which waszero nine, did the paper backack in twenty ten Willis was the highest nick I had at number thirty I now have him thirty eight But Willis was two time finals MVP, seventy MVP when Like one of the things that when was the time finals MVP but Frasier should have been the seventy one. That's fine And One of the things I value with him, he's Prime is right against all of these great centers He's against Karem coming in the league. He's against Will And he's goingo head to head with all these dudes for a couple years there and I'm not saying I'm not saying that he's like this player. I'm saying the position he occupies and the way history has recorded him unfairly in terms of where he's ranked is similar to Moses Malone Moses Mal is higher. Right. Moses but Moses Malone. was the best like we talk about Larry Byrd how amazing he was in the very beginning player in the game was not Kareem or Larry Bird for like five years Moses is the best guy seventy nine eighty T or three. He's among the two or three best for five years and at least two or three years you're like, that's the best player in the game. Yeah and and and like kind of the guy you want, even though Yeah, Kareem is better. We get it, but kind of the guy you want. Willis Reed was sort of that. So he was also the biggest enforcer of that era, which you need. Um, And then the gamees have been playing with that injury he had is one of this. I did a whole thing about my m I had him when I did my book when I did all the work I thought he was the greatest nick because the titles more than games I cl. I clad right after him. I had claad at thirty two. I would flip that, but but you're a like you're enough years old I'm fifty I never sawither play. Okay. All right, but you're still a little closer to it. You know, I have this theory that the weakest Um knowledge that one has in terms of history, is the error that occurred in the twenty years before ten years right before they were born because That's not history yet People assume in the world, the world just assumes you know all this. that everyone knows this, but you don't know it. You didn't live through it. So like the sev I was born in seventy three. that Nickx era is kind of my weakest era of sports history in a way I had I saw Clyde probably last couple years in the Kicks and then when he was on Cleveland. But I did have my dad who went to all these games My dad, my dad, listen to this is embarrassing for me Dad used to root for the Celtics when they had Bird and McKale and Dennis Johnson and Robert Parrish and Ange And I would be like, I hated the Celtics. And I was like, what are you doing that he'd just be watching TV. he didn't go to the games, just watch He'd say they remind me of the Ks The way they play reminds me of that Nx dynasty and that bom was over. It wasn't coming back and the closest thing he could get to it was watching the Celtics So my dad Um I had Jordan Fraser. This is in twenty ten as is all time backward And he said Frasier killed us, He was an assassin You didn't want any part of him in a big game. He was always been the best guy in the court ve never been happier to see anyone retire Isn't it amazing? like when you think about if he's just gone now. like people just know him as the announcer. And and also there's so many things about what. First of all, his style was so flashy off the court. Yeah. right? He was him and Joe Namh, right On the court he was textbook by that by the standards of that era. He was one of the best big game guards ever. He was the best defensive guard in the league of for the first thirty five, forty years of the league And then Game seven seventy finals. Willis comes out and he's done after a minute. thirty five thirty seven six, nineteen and seven and five steals and took it to Jerry West to Jerry West So and Wilt was playing. So whether we want to go Willis or Walt. I go Walt. They're right next to each other. I had Willis slightly head just because center was more important, but Fraser's fine, but those are the top. That's interesting. like Now guard playay is so important or backg said you had to have a s w I just feel like It's like magic Johnson. I guess Lak crereima is greater than magic. I get it. but Clyde Faser did in game seven. against the Lakers in a more unlikely situation what magic did in game six against Philadelphia Right? Like you look at the even the lines are similar, forty two, fifteen and seven versus thirty six, nineteen, seven and five, whatever it is bothoth guards missing their big the iconic guy in the big And and I guess, I guess you're right Karem is ahead of magic a little bit Maybe Maybe Willis reads ahead. Definitely an argument. I had. I wrote about this in my book So they had game seven in the nineteen seventy three Eastern confonference final, Celtics Kicks Tavock separates his shoulder halfway through. It's the best of all the Celtic teams even though they won in seventy four and seventy six to everyveryone says the seventy three team is the best team How a chick gets hur Celtics still have game seven at home to win. And Frasier just murders them in the second half. But the NBA had, this is crazy. They don't have the game Be there would just be games that would just just don't exist. But they had a game with no audio And they sent me the game for when I was doing my book. Was it just a DVD of the game with no audience. H movie or something? Yeah, it's like a whole mov H here's the way I've seen Suar Ray Robinson fight it well home movies. And it's just Frasier coming down Backing down whoever to like feet away and just hitting jumpers. And it's the whole second half in silence. I was just like Oh my go. so anyway Brunson, so Fraaser was is by the way, isn't it amazing how you like your dad puts Fraaser in the back court with MJ? ight not in blinking. Right when you are if someone says, who's the most clutch player I've seen It's always going to be the guy on the other team who killed my team Right? Like You can't tell me if I'm making my all time baseball team, George Brett is playing third base. George Bret, I don't care you tell me whoever want. I'm taking George Brett at third base. the DH is David Ortiz. like Th these guys killed me. So like those are the guys I want on my team. Wellhead I wrote this is what I wrote in twenty ten, and I'm interested to see who we would add to this list in my basketball watching lifetime Only seven guys were crowd killers Jordan Byird, Kobe Bernard. Isaiah Andrew Tony And strangely enough, Vinny Johnson Those are my seven in twenty ten Who would you add to the crowd killer list since then question because I think I don't think LeBron always had it, but he could summon it every once in a while, but I don't think it was usually going to be a shooter. It's usually a shooter who's like, o fuck I feel like SGA is right on the border of having it, but hasn't really frossed over yet. But the funny thing, the reason I bring this up is I think Brunson's on this list. I was the closest thing today, I think is Brunson. Brunson Right Over And I think Durant would be another one. Um on paper, but I don't think I put them on this slist. It's a guy who you know rises to the occasion And Daranta always have it. And also like a guy who rises to the occasion, but physically, well, how can why is it him why he's rising to the occasion You know, like the rant seven feet tall. So I think Brunson's on that list. I think so U But anyway, the point is you've somebody like Frasier who was first team on MBA four times Second team onbe twice was all defense basically from they created the award in the late sixties. He was all defense for the the rest of the time U I have him w and Willis Freed two, but okay, those two are the top two. So Brunson wins the title. Yeah They win the title. He beats San Antonio as a two to one underdog Would you have him ahead of those two guys No, not not but he'd be third. He'd be he'd unquestionably be third He'd be third, onene chip, third. those guys won two. And also when you mention all NBA Back then you're not talking about first second, third team. You mean like he's He's one of the two best guards in the league. And by the way, he's contemporaries with the logo That's the other best guard in the league every like, you know, that's the level he's on and is The one thing I will say is that in a league where Two thirds of the team are still playing when the season is over There's There's no in a regular season award. only season that matters is the very long and very high leverage Payoffs, right post season And when you say a guy and this is like the Jimmy Butler rule for me every year you're like, when the playoffs start, you're like Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the playoffs What you're really saying is Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the NBA, right? That's really what that means Runson is not first team all NBA But he is first team all NBA. But if you ask any basketball fan, who would you rather have in the playoffs going forward He would he wouldn't be one of the first three picks, but he might be four or five. When you look back at it and see what actually happens, it may be that we say, well, that's how we felt at the time But in fact, he was the number one guy. you want like, I did this on the show the other day How many guys in the NBA Are you taking over Brunson right now heading into a series? Who do you want over Brunson Brunson R SGA Both SG is taller I'd ratherJ. SJ is taller. He's a much better defender I would rather have Brunson, I would rather like this is not oh, it's Nickress. I'm flip that for me in this series I think SJA like he won the title last year. He wasn't good just now. I mean he wasn't awful, but he wasn't that good in this series He was You know, and the difference and when when we talk about like I thought he was awesome in game seven, even though he died in the fourth quarter. But I think he died because yeah, he kept a but I just d what he was doing that game was sick. He difference between SGA and I'll say James Harden to Yeah. And let's say MJ or Kobe when they are looking like when they get the whistle is the priority for MJ and Kobe were hit the shot And if I get the whistle fine. The priority for Harden and to a lesser extent SGA is the whistle. and if I hit the shot fine And it's not the same thing Brunson second team on bay three times in a row Three year peak of twenty seven and seven. for your playoff peak counting this year twenty nine points a game four rebound, seven assist, forty six percent field goal. twenty nine for four playoff years is really good. I mean, that's So the case for him now is best part in the finals team, which I value U. I have to do my pyramid at the end of the year. I want I always redo it every year afterfter the playoffs. Yeah, he's niffing around now in the top hundred because of the peak. I mean, you'd have to do it for a couple more years, but this is This is pretty special. There's also something about winning a championship for a franchise that hasn't for fifty three years, But that's where you get the Wilton I mean, the Willison Walt That's why you have to value those because of what that team meant to the city and Patrick Ewing I have third I had him fortieth in the book now because Bronson hasn't won a title yet. I have him forty seventh. I mean, Ewing was top five once, top ten six times playing during an era with Aim and Shack and I also David Robinson David Robinson was better, I get it. I also felt like ewing maybe had the edge in that matchup when they played each other just experiencing those games. I thought close, but maybe Ewing had the edge, obbviously not against the La Juan or Shack could against aajuan or Cck. The ninety four finals is tough for him If you're talking about viewing Big Picture where he ranks Like he just got his ass kicked against the te.' eighteen point nine points a game. thirty six percent in that series seven game. They needed to be better and it came down to like He was very good He was very good defensively. Like people forget. he was he was he had like something like six blocks in one of those games. offense never he was he had the best. He had a guy who's in the conversation for greatest defensive player of all time T on him on his at his best. Like that's the best Elaj Jan ever played. But it's a good example of like If he flips that, And they actually win game six or game seven And he wins the title then Ewing's the best thing of all time. Well, how about this Ellijuan doesn't get his fingertips in game six on Starks three. Yeah and it goes that shot was going in. I don't know No idea like Lajan blocked it. My third that ninety four N team was OS You didn't win the title Be the ball was in John Starks' hands in the biggest moments of games for you. And that's the reason you weren't a champion. But the bigger issue is John Starks is a sixth man. Yeah pressed into action because they didn't really have an all star calibber you didn't have Doc Rivers. Well you didn't have that Doc Rivers would have been the Didn't teerr us ACO that Yeah even or was a Black man? One of the years was ivers was Harbor arper, that was Dererk Harper. What was he Rivers was pre harbor. But Doc told me this whole story about how he was hurt And then they could have put him on the playoff roster and they didn't post prime at that point. But the next. They was a play gu short. No, they were in they only had one all star squorere Yeah. likeike John Starks was an all star six man type. He's like a He starred in the role of six man. He should not have been the starting shooting guard. He had to be because the Nicks didn't have Reie Miller or Alan Houston at that point, right? Yeah If they have that guy They probably win that series They didn't have that That was the flaw of the team hundred percent That's why I said This starting five this last year Best starting five, starting five of my lifetime watching the Kicks. There's there's in other words, there's no All the players are at least league average And you have a couple of all stars and you have a guy who's the next thing to an all star And multiple players have an offensive game. So I have Willis one A and Frasier one B. Okay, youing three Bush or four Bernard five. The busush are over Bernard Be the Bernard, he just wasn't on the Nicks long enough Mute and his peak. where he's the second best play in the league Piston series takaking the Celtics toe to toe for seven, which was an awesome Celtics team with multiple guys to throw them didn't matter Um The peak was Heres hereere's where you're going to here's the deBuser case though. Okay. best offensive forward of his whole generation Um T ear born to early point shooter but they didn't have a three point line. So if you put them in a different a, it's actually more interesting but Everyone was just like, This guy was just the all time winning prayer to throw on your team and So it's tough because I love you know, I love Bernard more than anybody, but U, I just don't think it was a long enough thing to put them ahead of the buser Here's the thing that you'll run into withush the deBush a pick It was a different league. It's pre modern basketball in the sense it's it pre as you say, there's no three point shot And Carmelo Anthony was on the Ns long enough where he was still among the ten best players in the league I don't know that the Bushia was ever considered onene of the ten best players in the league. He the role made he made one OMBA top ten sixty nine all defense six times. Right. But guys player on two title teams. Yeah. He's kind of of that team, the OG An and Oi who you love having on your team But I don't know that the years from now We'll have OG Annaobi ranked fourth on the. So I had for I had the Butcher forty sixth in my book Rranked to fifty seven you love the buser. I mean, my d loved the bus. That's the thing. I was I was really riding with what the old guys were telling me. and the busher was the guy over and over again that they talked about likerentially. You got it by the way. One day years from now, someone to look at Draymond Green and be like, Yeah, but Draymon Green changed basketball. Right. No. But the Carmello thing, I think has been overblown and pick it apart pretty easily. I would not have him in the top five. I think we have to make allowances for Carmello and for Kobe tend to get under they're overrated by some and underrated by others because The game changed from under like underneath their feet. the ground was moving. because they were featured offensive scorers, The analytics will tend underrate them You know, they didn't like Carmelo didn't evolve his game the way Vince Carter did, let's say. There're the same kind of player. but like Vince Carter evolved with the league and had a twenty year career And Carmelo didn't The analytics are going to underrate Carmelo. because the game changed out from underneath his feet. Like he was, he just never had the one run The closest was zero nine against when they made the conference finals. He went on the right team Part of that was his fult though. I gotta ding him on that Like kid have waited a sign with the Kicks and instead he made them trade a whole bunch of shit for him E goes to a team that and then he has no help. and it's like, I don't have any help ' you forced them to trade all these dudes to get you and you could have waited. Well, by the way, Dolan didn't need to intervene. Donnie Walsh was going to get him for a lot less, you know But like the argument that convinced me about Carmelo is what if Detroit just has a normal draft and drafts Carmelo Anthony What are we saying about them now? R I know it didn't happen, but nothing had to change about the kind of player he was. He just needed to be in another situation. How many times is Carmelo all NBA I I have that. I was a big Carmello defender Um because I always felt like the best thing about him was that he thought he was as good as LeBron and Wade So if I and Kobe. So if I had that in a series At least I know I'm going in to war with somebody who's like, I'm legitacy. whether it's true or not, he believed it. Yeah he was as he was as good as like end of the career Kobe like the more kind of post up game Kobe, that Carmelo was as good as that. Carmelo to first team on or two second team onbiers Three four third teams seven times one of the Yeahah, it's pretty good he wasn't a defender, you know. I thought in u twenty thirteen, he was the third best player in the league. R. It was him and Durant and and LeBron and LeBron and Duran were above him. He just had a game that was tailored to the previous era Like you don't have to go back three hours. You to go back one half an hour. T two in that nugget series Nuggets Lakers zero nine. Sers tied to two playing really well in the playoffs and then Last two games Whatever. and then the Indiana, which everybody blames on Tyson Chandler Carmelo was in that series too. He just kind of never had the moment. I agree I don't know. I'm just saying like Bushia over Carmelo is You can argue it. I don't know if you win the argument. I don't know if win that argum But by the way, the Kicks fans like who actually lived through the D Bush era will agree with you Yeah, I really trusted the old guys because I wasn't it was what we talked about earlier And there were a couple guys that they were just fanatical about. DBushe was one of them. Like we're talking about greatest Kicks. If you say greatest players, hard to argue DBusha over Carmelo greatest Nicks, you could argue de bususho over Carmel. Yeah. I gotta say like I don't one hundred percent understand the romanticism with Carmelo in the Kicks Like was that was that an incredibly fun time that I missed? Like even Linn Sanity was probably the most fun part of the entire the lics I was defending And he drove Jerryy Linn out of New York. I was defending Carmelo to Nicks fans that whole time. like Oh when Carmelo gets back, he's going to stop the ball. I'm like, no, Carmelo's a winning player. listen, I was hearing about TJ. Ford all that year And I saw Carmelo Anthony play for Syacuse once and I said, they're going to win the championship. That guy' the best player in the country. notot close, Carmelo Anthony And they did. So I thought of him as a winner I mean, he had little Mc Namara like winning players on that team doesn't get drafted by Detroit where he probably would have won multiple championships And then when but like so I'm like, now, he's not going to stop Well he did. And he did drive Jeremy Lyn away Um, In the end though, was Jeremy Ling going to win you a championship? He was not The Denver stuff isn't great either when you go back and there's just a lot of first round exits Um You know, he Basically until the zer nine fininals. That's like his sixth year in the league And then round two, just not. Carmello was unlucky and then was a victim of his own hubris later on And made the mistake, which the other guys didn't do of signing the longer contract in two thousand six. Oh believe. And those guys all had the outs, but he didn't. He was stuck with the Kicks for that extra year Um, Well, the second part of this conversation is the keys to the city conversation guysu who just Mined in New York Namh. Jeter in order No order Nameth Jeter Eli Reggie Jackson Yeah, he is. with Reggie, though. What is it Thermman Munson. Well had Munson? was that so beloved that that The fact that Munson couldn't stand Reggie because of what Reggie said early on even though He didn't need to make it about Munson. Reggie showed up baseball bat after the Yankees had been swept in the World sereries big red machine and said No one will ever embarrass the Yankees again as long as I'm holding this in my hand. Yeah and then hit Five home runs. Three of them in a rowing the deciding game six Then they gave him the candy bar because he had said the thing, you know, baby Ruth, he thought it was after Babe Ruth It was actually after Teddy Roosevelt's Baby Ruth, right? Ruth, his daughter Everyone thought it was named after Bab Brut. so he said, If I ever play in New York, they make a candy bar after me after no one did embarrass the Yankees with that in Reggie's hand, they gave him the Reggie bar and on opening day at Yankee Stadium seventy eight after they won the championship He hit a home run. They had given out Reggie bars and everyone threw the empty rarappers on the field like confetti. I know Bill James and others will argue that it's either very difficult or maybe clutch hitting doesn't exist Look at Reggie Jackson's record in the World series I agree with that that argument is. because how do you explain Ortiz then Did you think Ortiz was getting hit against you when Ortiz came up? You did every time He's still getting a hit some. I have Reggie and Thurman. I have Mariano. but there's a distaste as much as people love Reggie, there unlike everyone else you just mentioned, there's an undercrent's a butt. becausecause of Munson. Not with Mariano. Marian And now And I think Messi is there No question, Messier is there. Is there a met I mean, I would say Tom Sver once upon a time probably. Um You know, he's not around, but Um, Sra was the one I had. I didn't know if you'd want to there was an eighty six met. I'm trying to think of who the eighty six Hernandz was like close. That's the the Gary Carter And by the way Not on that not on the level you know the real foruff. You know what the real is? hereere are the two guys Fooden and strawberry. Gooden and strawberry. Yeah. Gooden and Strawberry were the biggest stars in New York at the time. Would you have any other Yankees from That ninety six to two thousand run other than Jeter and Mariana Well I mean, I have a personal favorite. No, For the city, this is the exercise Pall O' Neil Paul ONeil got the keys to the city. But Pete Paul ONeill is Boved in New York Okay. And then the other guy people have a love for in New York, like other people outside New York don't understand is Bernie Williams Bernie Williams on my all time clutch team. Remember, if you your're all time clutch team a lot of times didn't play for your team because they but like If I was the fan of another team in that whole era In fact, of everyone in baseball in that era The last guy I'd want to see come up of everyone in any situation in the clutch would be Bernie Williams Because he was a switch hitter patient. He was clutch. Look what he did in the playoff. He was calm. He was calm. He f off He always wasted the good pitch. Bernie Williams. He had plus power. He would hit three hundred plus every year like and he's a switch hitter. He always had the matchup Bernie, I would say Bernie For me, it's Bernie and for the people I know it's Bernie, hard for me to talk for all of New York there, but he's up there Jalen Brunson Win this thing forget it Reed and Frasier would be the two Nicks So many young people don't understand The reason that R right Brunson is going to be the greatest of all time is because they don't One of the most treasured memories I have in my life is bumping into Clyde Frasier downstairs the day of the decision and having breakfast with him But this little place across the street from Madison Square Gard And while we're lamenting the state of the Ns and the fact that All I can think about is having breakfast with Clyde Fzier on the David LeBron like this is the Nick that goes to Miami. Oh my, I'll tell my grandkids about this. But I don't think a lot of younger fans in New York care I think there's for a spepecific generation, Bernard is on that list, but it's only like It's an age window of like, teen years. Yeah The Bernard in ' eighty four and then the first part in ' eighty five was like go watch us I was I love watch She' got to have it, right? Like, you know, he's arguing Bernard King slightly in she's got to have it is arguing Bernard Ching over Larry Bird That's who we had in New York at the time. Yeah. So Brunson has a chance to elevate to that level. No other Nicks from this team. Oh, I'll tell you another guy with the keys to the city. Wh Don Mattingley has the keys to the city Without the title without the title. Don Mattingy. the hit man He is so beloved in New York between Jeter and Mickey Mantle probablyro the most universally loved Yankee and that includes Reggie and Thurman, even though. those guys one World sereries and he didn't. and Lawrence Taylor justust because he was the best ever Right? Like Lawrence Taylor is you out' a good run You can't tell anyone in New York anything about Lawrence Taylor He's the best defensive player I've ever seen. best player Yeah, best defenseive player of all time I think he might be the best football player I've ever seen. Yeah, probably Like if we're if we're doing if we're doing a draft to try to H and Jerry Rice and Even Brady, like I'll divorce myself as a pats fan but just like got non patriots Jerry Ris and Tower were the two best partars I' ever. The thing about Brady is, if we're choosing up an all time, let's draft an all time team, right If you take Brady, I'll take Montana. I'm good Two players the drop off of LT to the next guy. It's LT and the other guy for me is Deon Sanders. If we're strategically like if we're drafting short stops and catchers because there's going to be a run on them There's no I know I know the advanced metrics like other guys better than Deon Sanders, but I know what I saw Like I don't think there's anyone close to Deon at his position. I don't think there's anyone you can't approximate that. You know, you want to take Reggie White, I'll take Bruce Smith or I'll take, you know, I'll take I can You want to take I can take Aaron Donald if I just want to guy on the defensive line If you want to take Jerry Rice, I could take Randy Moss, yes, I would much rather have Jerry Rice, but Randy Moss is, you know You know, but I don't know what to do. If you take Lawce Taylor I'm like, well You're looking into Derek Thomas like you already over there. Outside linebacker who can drop into coverage. likeike forget about the pass rushing. John Hann is like that for for guard It's like if I get John Hannon now, it's how like what you do. That's true That's and by the way, that's the strategy. you always go for like the scarc city at the position Um What should OKC do I had in my notes as well for you? Zach and I talked about this for a while There's I was thinking about this Um And I don't know if it's the time we live in now to overreact to whatever happens at all times, right how if that had been the case in the eighties The Lakers have traded magic after the eighty four finals A traragic Johnson. Yeah U Especially when he wanted to tree. The pistons when Isaiah, the the bird steals the ball and they blow it in game seven. It's like, what are the pistons do? They got to blow it up. They got to do this that. It's kind of the mentality we have The more I look at it, I think the The move is just to ride it out. You won the title last year. You went against a crazy freak. without your second best player You did every second best quer, you had a big bulls eye you all year, just like, Take a deep breath.'s a marathon out of sprint. It makes me think of what What Rilly said when He was trying to a Jedi mind trick right before LeBron left to go back to Cleveland and Riley had that press conference And he's like, winnings hard Only one team wins every year. Like the hard part is now when you don't win Can you stay together? he's basically like sending this coded message to LeBron. Well, Jordanu ruins basketball that way. Yeah. The problem with the standard that Jordan set is He's the greatest of all time People know that they're going to be compared against that And when you dig into the numbers, it says that Jordan's the greatest of all time And when you dig into the analytics, it says Jordan's the greatest of all time And when the analytics get more advanced, it furthers the argument that remember real box plus minus used to say LeBron had a slight edge over Michael Jordan. As it's become more sophisticated, Jordan now has the edge even in that stat, like a kind of point guard stat over LeBranche So he set that bar How do you beat that But you at least like he also never lost the championship. Right Yeah. six and z and three repeated Tice And the only times he ever lost when he had another all star on his team Even one was The year he played baseball came back and didn't have his legs. and the year Pippin got the migraine against the piston. Otherwise, if you g give him an all so LeBron and everyone is being measured against that and they're aware of it And if you look at the stats and the advanced datalytics and everything like I gott to get him in sh. can beat him on game and Duration of career is the way LeBron's trying to beat him now. Well, I mean, like you just do what you can Kobe was like, I'm gonna to do MJ better than MJ And he took the number twenty four She should have taken the number twenty two because he got super close, right. But not quite. So it ruined because like before MJ You were allowed to lose championships. Yeah And if people, and it's like it's what Harold Bloom, the literary critics. about that how There's anx and stop me if I've done this with you before because this is for my greatest at volume three. It's every writer since Shakespeare because writers, great writers are always aware of what came before them. And in fact, they're kind of having a dialogue with what's come before them. And so or they're involved in this dialectic as time goes on. And they and and E writer understands that Shakespeare covered it all There's there's nothing new you can do. So you have this anxiety of influence And u That's Michael Jordan. He has created an anxiety of influence in basketball. that has warped the way we think about basketball. in terms of Chet homein He has shown that at this point, he is at best the third best player on a championship team but he's very young He ran into a guy who may replace Jordan one day as the goat. if you can stay healthy, maybe He can grow from this. And I compared it to Or Warriors fans mad at me right now, but I just mean in this way When LeBron blocked Steh in game six and screamed on him And Steph kind of hung his head twenty sixteen. I was thinking, oh notot in retrospect at the time, I'm thinking, that's not how you react to that. Like he knows he's better than you. You know that too And then in game seven, yeah, I know Steph was hurard. I know he was tired. everyveryone's tired Game seven Three wins at home fourth quarter, five and a half minutes left. You can't score a point. You can't set up a teammate to score a point You're throwing the ball out of bounds behind your back And you lose like that at home to LeBron James He told you, he was better than you, and you believed him There's something about that. I believe that And Weenby did that to check He's been prepping at this whole time. He at every instance, I own you Steph, I think consistently underperformed in the finals earlier in his career in fifteen and sixteen, I looked and I thought this is not the same guy as the regular season. Well slightly worse. D differentifferent you've seen a guy every day for two weeks You can start to shift stuff against him. and I took him a while to unlock that. They shifted against Jordan, they shifted against Marry Bird. but they shted to he answered that one. Even before then, I started to see him turn the corner against Kauwai. I saw him win games where it looked like, okay, Kawai is telling everyone, I'm the best player in this series. Look at this, lookook at this, lookook at this and Steph answered him right back and won a couple games at home. Yeah And then and then by twenty two, he's the best player on. In other words, he got where I wanted to see him get. Truly that kind of screwed it up too in this way I kind of wish Iran had just gone somewhere else. Even though that seventeen Warriors was the most fun or the most successful team we probably had since zer one I thought that Rob Curry of like his Rocky three moment If you know coming off the sixteen finals comoming back and beating Clubber Lank. Yeah. but Yes, maybe, maybe. but the fact is this is how it happened. But my point is death matured and figured it out in my opinion, and Yeah I had to push back slightly in the block. I remember the moment. I just I don't I just don't think Steph that team was banged up and tired from G for that seventy three wins from winning the year before. I just thought that running on fumes. You watch those games and it doesn't even Looks like a like Draymond has thirty five in game seven and they still lose. He was going to be the MPP of the. They were going to lose that game by twenty points if he doesn't do that I saw yeah, I saw that moment. Maybe you're right. but because I thought the key to me with that series is game four Cleveland brought it That's an awesome game that's been lost in NBA history and Golden state won the game. and I may tail end of it Dreay I got punched in the balls, but I think Gen state was going to win that series in five. I Well, I think that's LeBron goading Like he knows this guy one more tech and he's won't admit that he did it. I know But I don't know why it it's to his credit that he did it's super smart. It's like Muhammad Ali level psych. I should say like, yeah, I knew maybe I could get to Dreama and the game was over and but I would say this, but that's like the push ninety four The Achilles tle of that worst team was Draymond one hundred percent. when you have find of that. Dennis Robman Tight Yeah What side of the line is he going to be on? And if you he fished and he got it, but I'll say this about your pushback could be that I'm confusing correlation with causation. Like for example If I saw a dark cloud and thought, oh, there's going to be an earthquake. and then there was an earthquake. the cloud didn't cl it. But hard to tell me when when my when I, you know, my great grandfather told whatever it was that this in my family, we always knew if this there's a dark cloud H to tell me that that's not the case if it happens, right whatever. It's a bad example, but you get the idea. Yeah when I saw that moment I thoughtw it Yeah, Oh right That's my reaction to it. And then so that I linked it to the last Bill it wasn't the last minute. It wasn't the last two minutes. They didn't score six points and the other team scored eight points with five twenty two to go. I believe it was five twenty two. in the fourth quarter of a game seven Home sccore a single point Maybe you're right It's hard to tell me that because it's not like I looked back and connected those two things at the moment. I'm like, What is this It's fun It's such a fascinating game Because the warriors, the Boget injury happens And then Harrison Barnes over the course of that series basically just dies and becomes unplayable, right? Unreal couldouldn't say anything. If you go back and watch, it's like an all time game seven rock fight, Curry doesn't really have his just doesn't seem like he has his Mjo in the same way. Draymon's keeping the minute And they have Azeelia out there with like six minutes left. who is also not good by the way I don't think ever, I'm pretty sure he never played another NBA game I'm almost positive that's No that was an all time joke Um But they had to have Azillia out there. He didn't know who to play. He needed to buy somebody minutes and LeBron sniffed it out. the first time he got, you've got it Azai to fall into him for three free throws And the second time is Zill he was afraid to come out on and he hit the three I always felt like that was the game. It's you have Festo Azleia out there with five minutes left in a game seven because your team is just depleted or whatever. I mean and then also that was it. And then yeah maybe, I mean, sure, sure. I mean, obviously I I just think they ran out of guys as that series went along and You know, they weren't that deep to begin fine. hit a shot You have to fiveive and a half minutes is the greatest hal Garding Curry is the worst moment in Curry's career. hit a shot or or use your gravity to create a shot for a teammate. Or try this don't have an unforced turnover Like throwing the value of possession. But that is the only finals he ever lost Okay except On reason. They won in fifteen is because LeBron's second best player with Matthew Dela Vadova. there is like we look, Two years ago, last year, the pacers were better than the Kicks ar It was clear they're better than Nicks. Two years ago, the Nicks were better than the pacers Injury allowed the pacers to win We all saw twenty fifteen That was injury You know, that was injury. Now we are in a time in the NBA and maybe it's been like this and I don't know. and and I'm not I'temberock that up to an injury finals. I know fifteen. No, I thought the wears were good that year. I think I honestate would figured it out If you think the cavves are good that year, it's because they have LeBron James and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Yeah. And if you took Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving off the team, you'd be like, well, they're not so good, right? But they had to change how they played in that finals in a way that I thought actually weirdly helped them a little bit with what they did with LeBron. The difference was In other words, LeBron because he didn't have his two guys, they played in a way that got the most out of the rest of I thought it fucked the Wriors up. And then when the Wriors figured out the lineup of death thing that flipped the series back But there was something about how that series, it was so weird that I actually thought it kind of I still feel like the warriors, if you're just putting those fifteen teams together in the newness of that team and what was going on? Kevin Love You know, Kvin L thing was weird those first two years. Kyrie was a big game player though. He was never he'd never really done it before the and he couldn't have a chance like that that didn't a chance. That's LeBron on the zero seven cavves. He basically took the zero seven cavs cav six games against against warriors. I feel like the right team. So if you're going to go fifteen and sixteen Going one in one was probably the right outcome. Yes, but right But you have to flip them. Yeah Yeah, but it's just like each team probably should want to Okay. So' the best argument for Steph Curry for all the Steph Curry fans. Yeah Not only are the individual stats great But he created an environment, both a culture And in terms of the space that he provided every and the way he could play off ball on ball the whole thing where where it's like in chess, if you dominate the middle of the board. Yeah All tactics will tend to favor you If you have Steph Corery on your team, If you have Steph Curry on your team, all these situations will tend to favor you because of the structurally what he creates both in terms of the culture and in terms of the spacing on the floor and all that kind of stuff. fine. I would not take that away from Steph. I still think He is an example of how a player can mature in the clutch And and not the Ched is Steph Curry I wouldn't be so quick to move off chet. Here's another unless you just think at his size, we were worried about the longevity anyway Even his frame, blah blah blah, maybe even then you're still selling low If you look at a guy like Iguadala was miscast as the number one in Philly. Eventually he's a number four in Golden State but you still want Iguadala on your team. Yeah. If chet is a three or a four get he's a very expensive three or four Hk Like it seems' one of the things that makes that team really good. That's the biggest part of this though is can you afford three expensive guys if you're not sure about one of the three That's that's how would work you turn him into into a to Well, let me ask you this If they called the clippers and said, give us the fifth pick for Chet cippers do because they have the cap space to make it work I think the clippers would I think I think they would too Would Milwaukee do it I'm not Jianas is an answering the question. The question for me is Would Okay see want to turn chet? into the fifth pick in the draft making thirty million dollars less, then you bring Hartenstein back You have Hartenstein and Jay Will as your centers. and then try to go d enus or someone like that. Or maybe you try Yeahah, or you try to give Robert Williams a F agC Um, mayaybe at five you didn then try to trade in the top four. Maybe you can talk Memphis and going back to spots or Chicago. It's just that was the most interesting fake trade of all the chet fake trades for me Could they get to five for the Qippers, a team that has Ci, there is Garland. emergency, not knowing what the aspirations settlements' going to be and all that shit. withithout running pleas for Chet Homgrin. He's giving you seventeen what He's like nineteen and nine. nineteen not the second best defensive play in the week.. I mean like it shuts a lot He's and also you want Youre just you arere paying forty one million dollars for him And he's year. he's a three four really. like like like Weemby's really a three. He's playing four or five because he's very tall, but he playsim protection. I don't know. I would think about it. Yeah. But that's it. I would have to get major salary cap relief And I would have to get some sort of Big chip. The warriors are going the sorry the warriors The Thunder are going to have to do something is the general feeling about things because of the way check came up small and the money and the money sure. All right, of course. they have Jayalen Williams, mayaybe they win this year They went seven games. W that their second best? That's I think where you land after the wounds after licking your wounds, cleaning up the blood off the floor You're like, fuck would we have won that series if Jayelen Williams was one hundred percent healthy we probably would It's more really preparing for what the sppurs are likely to become. You know, like you win win the Super Bowl in Madden and then the next year all your all your young players are rated ten points higher right? Like all of the a sudden Steh and Step Castle and Harper and everything start to blossom and it's like We needed to do something that. Here's you'll love this analogy ing unb boxing with you every once in a while just so pututs the hair in your arm stining up Um Frasier couldn't be foreman Fraser was awesome ut Frasier against anybody else. It was a great fight. He was the worst possible guy to fight Ali Something about Foreman, He had no chance. Yes R. They did it twice. Rock paper scissors He said no chance. I don't know what that like I don't think Frazier at any point in his career would have figured out what to do against Foreign. Form would have knocked out every time. And the question is, is that shed against Wbby But Styles make Fraasier against for probablyro, but Styles make fights. So Ali, the boxer has a hard time with the volume pressure fighter, Frazier because the guy who wants you to miss, Yeahah, you make Frasier miss five times. whoo cares? You're comeing another ten punches, right? Hard for Ali Um Frasier versus Foreman, the pressure fighter has to come inside against the puncher. He gets clipped coming in. he's knocked out hard for Frasier fororem in the puncher trying to swing onene at a time against Ali the guy who could make you miss bad for foreman Right? So it's it's rock it really is rock paper scissors if you're saying that The problem is that the rock is going to be sitting there in your pet every single year. Yeah, you know, that's true Again, I don't that and but no one who's going to match up with Wendy? Like you're not going to find That's said Saturday night. It's like everyone's going to have this problem. So do you just Ecept that there is no Wimbie answer And maybe you did the best job you could have done against him, but every team is going to have this issue. So just put your best possible team together Yeah. If I'm the Thunder, I don't think I'm looking at that matchup. I think I'm looking at Yeah I think we're better than them. We were missing our second best player. if one more shoot. If we have them, we're good And one more shooter, I think is the other thing. a team that when they couldn't hit threes felt like they could lose the any Well if they lose Dortt, then they're going to, you know they Could they make a run at somebody who's just a more reliable he check three point guy that But I think really what you're preparing for is noty's going Weemby's always going to be better than Chet. Even if Chet does better. He's still going be better than Chet You're preparing for the evolution though. This was Yes, he he was in tle Yes, he was. I didn't realize when we did the pod Saturday night, Chet took both of his shots at the beginning of the game He went like twenty eight minutes without takingte possession where he he thought about shooting shoot. But I think really if you're the thunder you're your're thinking how do we counteract the evolution of Castle and Harper really That's really what you're going to have to deal with. Yeah. And that's I wouldn't worry about I mean, also like what if Carter Bryan all of a sudden is good in two years and he's good now. I know. like but it could be like a thirty five minute a game guy. It's pretty rough. It's I think they're set up It's so funny because we were saying this about OK seed last year And somehow San Antonio' set up even better. and it's really just can Wey stay healthy at seven foot six whatever is. if if I was thinking I said this on Be we remember when Sampson got hurt Weemby's plays a much He's playing in space more than Sampsson ever did is a different time And when he And now he's Sampson didn't train the Chalolin monukss eith. O Tin how to fall. That's another thing. Like oney actually works on How to fall how to land, which I don't, they just didn't know the sh likeike Sampson forty years ago. obody was working with them on Here's what happens if you're starting to fall. Right. So he has a three year prime. And that's what people were thin. F fell in the Boston Gardam. never the same. fell on his back. led to all this other shit U All right, Max Kellerman, you going you're going to go to at least one Nx home game I gott to go do the show in a minute I don't know if like let's see if I can get into a home game I think I might have to catch you in San Antonio. Hot ticket. yeah Good luck though. This is Ever since I've known you, this seemed like an inconceivable conversation that the Nicks might have the greatest Nick ever on their team that they might win the finals Not like when people say ninety nine, it's so annoying. They didn't have a shot in ' ninety nine. Yeah, Ewing was like youw Ewing didn't play and then and they were an eight seed. like, you know can be and And Campbey's kind of forgotten. He was excellent. That was a great tr. He had a great run. That was a, but like it' sprree well in Houston in those guys Um, They didn't have a shot. This was the only shot they've ever had.ice I said this on a pod a couple of weeks ago where I said this next team had the best chance to make the finals since the ninety four team. Yeah. And people were like What about the ninety nine team? They made the finals and it was like They lost youwing. likeike it was a miracle they beat the pacers They wouldn't have won with youwing but they would have gone six or seven games. Yeah. likeike that was crazy that they even got out of round three I would say that In a way, this Nick team is playing with house money that the ninety four team wasn't playing with in Jordan's absence, it's like, okay, now Like we we were taking the bulls. No one in the West took them seven games. We were taking them seven games. We took them seven games with Jordan Npip and M Grant. Right? now is the time This is Patrick Ewings's time. Here we get to see the parallel universe with no Michael Jordan. The Kicks are going to win a championship. So it felt you weren't playing with house money. You were like And it was so bizarre when they didn't. It was like, wait, what They lost the how is this possible. This is house money. The Nicks were' not supposed to be here Right likeike I agree and I disagree the playwalls. I agree and I disagree. because I also think this is going to be your best chance this decade to win the title Yeah. it's the best chance.'re probablyably not going to have mch next year. He's going to leave because I just don't think they could pay him twenty to twenty five million bucks U you had no Indiana this year Boston with Tatum coming back You're going to have other teams in these getting better. You don't know where the next challenge is coming from You have younger Weemby who's only to get better or okay, see, like this is if the Ns can this is it. I think it's not as much about they didn't have the gauntlet as it because I think they would have You' all this rest basased on what I've seen, they would have beaten all those teams basased on what I've seen these playoffs. They wouldn't have swept every roone, but they would have won. I think they were they Indiana had your number though. if it was same Indiana team, but they they're not winning by twelve. They're winning by four. I get it. The b legs. whoo knows, but that's my feeling. I feel like they're really, really good. The question is is it sustainable for more than a year or two Yeah, right? L so is this it? and they're firing them guys that I wrote about this the Pat Reilly Diseease ofmor, which was one of my favorite things to write about in my book You've all these guys sacrificed in this year because they're trying to win the title. Once you win the title, you're not as excited to sacrifice. Towns is like,, yeah Eight shots a game? I don't know I'm ready to take some more. You know what? I don't think that's his problem. I think he has the other problem. Towns shoot more I think that's really he's such he's such a team guy. It's like Yeah, you know, like I just think it's the when you say the twenty fourteen spurs They had largely the same cast, but it never came together like year It was awesome. rightight? And so this is now it does seem like they caught lightning in a bottle. They didn't have to run the gauntlet. their gauntlet, they're rested. They're mostly healthy. We'll see if Mitch can play they just happen to be fair and maybe. They're catching the dynasty a year before it becomes a dynasty. Right, Right So I'll do spurs and six, I don't feel great about it You'll talk about your pick on Game overver with Rich Paulmax Garman, cororrect Good to see. Thankks for. Al always good All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Max Kellermman. thanks to Eduardo and Chris and Gah how as well. Don't forget, I am going to be coming back Right after game one of the NBA finals tomorrow night, We're gonna be live on Netflix And new reatchables mail bag mail bag coming on Thursday and then I'm not sure if I'm doing another podcast that week after the Wednesday pod. We will See, don't forget about the new Reewatch ofables with Steven Spielberg and Sean Fantassey as well two thousand one obdestly. So I will see you tomorrow . S twenty one plus in presresident select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen plus in president DC, Kentucky, Wyoming Game a probleom call one hundred gambler or one eight hundred My reset. Call eight seventy nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccPG dot org slash chat in Connecticut or mD gamblinghelp dot org in Maryland. Hope is here. 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