Michael Jackson Movie Review

This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Well, marketers know the feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's not such a great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. You can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads. Get a $2 50 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash rewatchables. Terms and conditions apply. The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by Fanduel. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did Kindergarten Cop. It is available on Netflix as well. Next week, Ghostbusters, which you can also watch on Netflix. That's coming with me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. We have some ringer stuff for you. Sean Fantasy. You might have heard from him, host of the big picture. I've worked with him since 2012. He put up a new newsletter today that you can subscribe to about movies. Did it with uh The Ringer and Substack and Spotify. Uh it's called Projections. He'll be writing about movies at least once a week. If you like Sean, I'm pretty confident you're gonna like the newsletter. Uh he's gonna be on here Thursday to discuss it. Jordan Kahn, who's been with us since Grantland, came to us uh along when we started The Ringer, uh, one of the best long form writers in the country. He has a new book that came out today called American Men. It's excellent. If you like reading books, I would recommend it. And then uh Legata, the third episode of that podcast, which I told you, if you like Scarface and my advice and 80s cocaine, all that stuff, this is the podcast for you. Uh, Legata third episode is up. Now, on this podcast, I'm gonna be reacting to all the basketball tonight, um, plus the basketball yesterday, uh, at the very top of this. And then I have Todd McShay and Steve Mensch. We we taped earlier today, whole bunch of NFL draft stuff,. Uh all of our thoughts. I threw some crazy stuff at them. Are there gonna be any crazy wrinkles? What's gonna happen in this draft? Covered it all. And then last but not least, Van Lathan came on because he saw the Michael Jackson movie and uh he thought it was abominable and we talked about the movie and the state of biopics and documentaries and all the stuff that uh seems to be going in the wrong direction these days. So that's all coming up next. I'm gonna join you right after the break. First, Pearl Jam . The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here, and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win is winning along with them. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after a tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. Twenty-one plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game Problem called 1-800-Gambar. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/slash chat in Connecticut. All right, I am taping this top part of the podcast. It is 102 3 Pacific time on Tuesday night because I stupidly stayed up until the end of this Lakers Rockets game, thinking something spectacular would happen. And it was spectacular if if a rock fight that almost injured people in the first couple rows of the seats were spectacular with all the bricks and air balls and oh my God. It was so bad. I'd like to apologize to Gahau and Eduardo, um, who are my behind the scenes team. I made them stay up late. Now they have to put this podcast up because I thought it would be worth it. It wasn't worth it. We should have done this two hours ago. KD came back. So that was a wild card. He had nine turnovers, um, four, four or five in the fourth quarter . Partly his fault, but also like A, why is he out there? B, why is he doing so much? Because he clearly didn't see him 100%. Reed Shepherd. This might have been it for Emay and Reed Shepherd. I think he played what do I have here ? 10 minutes. 0 for 4 for Reed Shepard, the number three pick of the 2024 NBA draft. One pick ahead of Stephon Castle. Um, Houston, they changed some stuff up. They pressured a game late with that idea. With when you have Marcus Smart and LeBron James and Lou Connard bringing the ball up, why not pressure those guys 94 feet, uh Jaden McDaniel style? They didn't do that . I looked it up. They nobody has ever been fired during a series before, so I think Ime Adoka's safe probably until after the series, but they're down 0-2. And the big thing for me , the fact that they didn't trade trade for uh CJ McCollum at any point during the season before Atlanta got him is just bonkers. It felt like the natural thing that was gonna happen after Van Vuit got hurt and the salaries kind of lined up. Houston has a bunch of extra picks. Washington basically, you know, they they they were ready to give away McCollum. They finally end up putting him in a Trey Young deal, which really they're taking Trey Young off Atlantis hands. McCollum goes and he's one of the stars of the of game two and one of the potential stars of the playoffs. He's almost becoming a a villain for uh uh on MSG with the New York fans, even though as he said after the game, I'm the least villainy guy possible . I don't know why Houston didn't trade for him. I don't get it. They thought they're they were good with the team. Like they like having Van Vliet around. Van Vliet can't play until next year. Like, worst case scenario, he could just opt out of his contract. You can re-sign him. But it's weird to me that they didn't do anything. And the EME clearly doesn't trust Reed Shepard. So can the Lakers actually pull this off? Because we got info today. Maybe Luca wouldn't be around until round two. That maybe maybe Reeves was actually a better option to come back. I'm looking at the playoff odds right now . Houston. Wow. Lakers minus. They're up two-nothing in the series with game seven and home and they're minus 120 on FanDuel. Because everybody's like, well, maybe Houston's gonna turn it around. I don't know. The team I watched tonight . I don't see it. I mean, just to come back from 2-0 in a series, um, the percentages are against you, but the way they the the the chemistry in the court, um, Durant not looking 100%. Shangoon looks like he's already on Redfin looking at Milwaukee houses for the inevitable Giannis trade that I'm starting to feel like could happen. Could the Lakers do this ? I and I don't know why I'm excited about it, because I hate the Lakers, but it would just be more fun to have them in the next series if Luca can come back against OKC. By the way, OKC, big winner of round one, right? But like Wemby, Wemby gets concussed, which we'll talk about in a second, but that series looks like it's gonna go longer. Denver, Minnesota is going to be a war. Meanwhile, OKC's gonna cruise through round one, and then they're gonna get one of these two teams in round two. Holy shit. Um panic rankings. I wanted to take you into the NBA panic room really quick. I have the Rockets now number one because if you lose this series to if you lose this series to this Lakers team, you gotta be kidding me . Honestly, you gotta be kidding me. That would be just one of the dumbest playoff losses I can remember. Your 41-year-old LeBron, Luke Connard, who anybody could have had, Marcus Smart hitting corner threes, Jackson Hayes is out there . I I just can't believe it. How many lottery picks does Houston have? I think out of the I think they had five or six guys who were taken like in the top five of the lottery. I uh oh my god. Um anyway, I've Houston number one. And and I blame Houston for the fact that it's ten twenty seven. I'm doing a podcast right now. Anyway, number two , the Spurs . Wemby gets concussed on the night that he is given the defensive player of the year award and it looked bad immediately. It was not great. Um and I don't in in football the concussion protocol is like at least a week. I who knows with basketball. He's definitely not going to be in game three, but maybe he comes back for game four . But at the very least, Portland steals one. Um if you're San Antonio, there's some questions that come out of that game. Um that I had already been thinking about. Wemby comes out of it, obviously he's their best offensive player. Um, but my fear with them all along was like shot creation in half-court when you're in a playoff atmosphere and you've got to create shots. And really, it was just Fox. Fox was the only everything was on Fox and Portland, Portland could kind of shut it down. And then uh it comes down to Drew Holliday, who had 16, 5, and 9, classic Drew winning basketball, gets the block in the corner, gets the go-ahead basket on the on the put back on an air ball, like always in the right place, right time. That's why they traded for him. And then this Scoot Henderson game, 31 points. So Nick Wright texted me this. He now has 10 more career playoff points than Wemby . I feel like I'm still in it with Scoot. Can't give up yet. Uh I thought Scoot was awesome today. Now he had one rebound and zero assist, but the defense and the fearlessness and the athleticism was what we thoughtht it mig be when when , you know, I was arguing him versus Brandon Miller. And I conceded to KOC, sorry Kevin O'Connor, I conceded to you two months ago that you won the Brandon Miller versus Scooter argument. Now I feel like I'm alive. I just climbed out of the coffin. Uh and congrats to Portland owner El Chepo , who uh who the guys after the game, they were pouring tap water on each other because he probably didn't have alcohol in the locker room. But El Chipo gets a win. Now they go back to Portland for game three. No t-shirts for those fans, because those t-shirts are expensive. Um that anyway, the Spurs. I have them at the top here in the panic because if they don't have Wemby for either of these Portland games, I think Portland's legitimately good. Like Toronto, bogus five seed, just bogus with a capital B. Houston, bogus five seed. Not capital B bogus, but bogus. Portland , frisky seventh seed. Like I I think Portland's a better playoff team than either Houston or Toronto. So you're going to Portland. Um the energy is going to be amazing. El Chipo's going to be shooting out um probably used t-shirts out of 15-year-old canning uh t-shirt cannons . I can't wait for for this weekend, but we'll see what do the Spurs have in them without Wemby. They signed Lou Cornette over the summer, who is one of the best free agent signings of the summer. Um, big game for him, obviously, game three, game four. They're gonna need a lot more from him . But as crazy as it sounds, like Portland, this could be a long series. And I don't think Portland's gonna go away. This is a team that knows who they are, really good defensively. Kamar, I thought, did a great job down the stretch and uh little feistier of a series. I think Sa I think San Antonio was minus fourteen hundred heading into the series. So it's one-one going back to Portland. We're definitely not gonna have one beef for game three. We'll see. That is my number two panic team. So Houston, San Antonio.ber Num three is Detroit. They're playing tomorrow night. They got their ass kicked at home in game one and they've lost twelve, eleven straight playoff games. This would be the twelfth that they lose game two. Orlando has a ton of confidence. They're catching this Orlando team that just did a 180 that hit rock bottom, crawled out of it. We talked about it on Sunday night . And might not give a shit anymore. It might just feel like fuck it. Maybe we're better than these guys. This is a Normandale and Hoosier's moment for JB Bickerstaff in the Pistons. This is JB looking at these guys. Maybe they're right about us. Maybe we weren't a one seed. He's got to start challenging them a little bit. I think this Detroit Orlando game Wednesday night, a must-watch. I think it's gonna be violent. I expect like I I don't know if you're watching the hockey, but Bruins Buffalo um almost had two different bench growing brawls. It brought me back to 1988, uh, when I really loved the Bruins the most, the 70s and 80s. And we played Buffalo, and I think it was 600 plus penalty minutes in a six-game series and multiple bench grade fights. Guys just fighting every game, the same guys, like Jay Miller. I think that we had Willie Plett . I think they had Clark Gillies. I forget they had they had another fighter, but just every game, the same guys were fighting. Um, I don't think Detroit Orlando is gonna be like that, but I think it's gonna get feisty tomorrow. I think this is one of those Detroit's gonna lay the smackdown, try to give the physicality. I think Orlando likes when it gets physical. They like that kind of action. And uh that's a must-watch. But I would be really nervous if I'm Detroit because Orlando, you know, there's two kinds of upsets. There's the Philly Kind that we'll talk about in a second against Boston in game two. And then there's the we actually belong on the court, might be better than you guys upset. And I felt like Orlando in that one. Now they're they're nine point underdogs in game two , which I think is too high. There's a lot of data going for if the home team gets blown out into game one as a big favorite. Then Sach talked about that on Sunday, but I think Orlando can play with these guys. So Detroit's my number three. The Nuggets are number four. First Nuggets lost yesterday in 33 days. I have multiple concerns coming out of the game. One, Aaron Gordon not healthy. Um, I thought he got banged up in different ways in game one, and then game two just didn't look like himself. So you lose rim protection, you lose the crazy athleticism, you lose the uh reckless threes in the corner that go in, all that stuff. I didn't think he seemed like the same guy. Not his fault. I just think he's banged up. I think he's been banged up all year. Second biggest thing, Jokic is threes, which we've seen come and go in the playoffs. If you really put a beating on him, which Minnesota did. Minnesota had Randall beating on him? They had Gobert beating on him. They had elbows, Nas Reeds beating on him, and they just tried to wear him down. And it got to the point, it felt like they were leaving him open a little bit. And I think he was one for seven. Um, a lot was made out of the Gobert one-on-one defense against Joker. I didn't think that's why they won. I thought they won because the physicality of all four quarters combined with the third thing I want to mention, McDaniels, you know, you could see what the game plan was in game two. It was like McDaniels is going to hound Jamal Murray 94 feet. And I don't know why more teams don't do this when you have a Jaden McDaniels. But I thought Murray was just gassed in the fourth quarter because McDaniels was just wearing him down and in his t-shirt, which is I think he wears the T-shirt inside inside the jersey, which I I I support. Um I thought he wore him down. So you have McDaniels 94 feet. You have Gobert with the one-on-one D. You have Ant with the rim protection. You have Randall and Nasreed being super physical. And then you have DiFincenzo with some big ball shots. And you have Bones Island as just a random Deion Waiters. We might have to rename Deion Waiters on Rewatchables. And then you have on offense everyone attacking the rim because they know if Gordon's a little compromised. Joker's not really a shot blocker, they're going. So when I think about upsets , um I said this after game one to Zach, even though Minnesota didn't play that well, I felt like they, the physicality, they seemed very comfortable. And I and I thought it was a little concerning after game one. They didn't play that well, but they still were in the vicinity of winning the game. Game two, super comfortable. And um, it's a team that thinks they're better than Denver. So if I'm a Nuggets fan,, A I'm um more concerned than I was four days ago that I was getting out of this series. They're three to one to win the series. Now I'm concerned. I'm also concerned what happens if I get out of this series. Because now I'm playing San Antonio. I have a lot of miles on me from round one. And and then I still have OKC waiting for me in round three. And they're gonna do all the same physical beat you up stuff that uh that Minnesota's doing. Now, this was the case. I thought Denver was gonna make the finals. The case against it was the road is too hard. And the way this is playing out, that case might have been right. I might have been wrong. I thought Minnesota was alive, potenti al could put it together for four rounds. But Ant, who didn't even seem like he was a hundred percent healthy all the time yesterday, um, combined with McDaniels coming back from injury, I just didn't think they were gonna be able to put it together like that. But man, they looked like a conference finalist last night. So um the these two either of these teams playing San Antonio is gonna be an incredible series, and I thought last night, I thought that was like watching a game five of a conference finals level quality of basketball. I loved it. I would be nervous if I was Denver . I wouldn't be quite as nervous if I'm the Knicks, but I'm a little nervous because game two against Atlanta, it picks some scabs for me. Right? There are we too Brunson centric. Are we sure Mike Brown is a good coach ? Is Mikhail Bridges playing tonight? He oh, he's played 32 minutes. I didn't realize it. Oh, he took the last shot of the game with five seconds left. I forgot he was on the team. Uh they had a bunch of that stuff going. The backup guards, McBride was bad. Um, Shaman was bad. So they got nothing really from their bench other than Clarkson made a couple plays. Um and the towns piece of it, now my Knicks fan friends were like, why didn't Towns get the ball more? What, you know, why would we be so Brunson-centric. Kaminka was doing a good job on towns. So I think it was a combination of he was being really physical with them. They found something with that small ball lineup. And if I was the Knicks and I were I rooted for the Knicks, the thing that would make me the most nervous, other than Josh Hart, was the best player on my team in game two . I would be nervous that Alexander Walker and Jalen Johnson . Alexander Walker didn't really play well in either s either game. And Jalen Johnson did not shoot well in the second game. And it's one to one. And they're going back where I think they're pretty good in Atlanta. So I'd be nervous that Alexander Walker hasn't going yet. And then the CJ McCollumn piece . He was doing w getting to whatever spot he wanted. You have these two wings in and obeying bridges that you've traded all this capital and big gave big contracts to. And over and over again, he was just getting away from those guys and and trying to repeatedly get Brunson on him. McCollum's like having this is a moment for him, right? This is the afterthought in Portland. Dame's teammate put it a million trade rumors. He even got mad at me publicly a couple times , kind of bounces around, ends up in Washington, becomes such an afterthought that Houston doesn't even trade for him. And now he's he's wearing it now. He's ready to to be the foil in a Knicks series. So I would be I wouldn't be crazy nervous if I was the Knicks. What are the odds on this series? They are Yeah, minus 174 on FanDuel. That seems about right. I I thought the Knicks were gonna win in six. I still think that , but the CJ piece was unexpected. We'll see if he can keep it going. And then the last one for a panic team, the Celtics. So we I would have ranked on the bottom here. First of all, in game twos, I don't know what happens to them. They're five and five in their last ten playoff home game twos. They lost to the Knicks last year, Miami and Cleveland in 24 in the Miami game was one of the dumbest losses of all time. They lost to Miami in 23. Then they lost to Nate. Philly did exactly what I thought they were gonna do. They shot a bunch of threes. Um, Edgecombe got hot. I think he was six for ten. He had a 30 and 10, was super comfortable. And then Maxie got going a little bit. The Celtics were playing this just insanely dumb drop coverage that I didn't understand for the life of me. And uh and giving up they think it was 91, 89. Boston has the ball, about to take the lead. Tatum jacks up a bad three. And then Maxie, I think hit two straight threes on that stupid drop coverage . So the Celtics were 13 for fifty from three. And Sean Grandy, my friend, uh, who does the radio for the Celtics, said regular season in playoffs, that's the twelfth time in the last hundred and sixty one games. The Celtics have failed to shoot better than twenty -six percent from three, and they've lost all twelve, including game one and game two against the Knicks, and then this game last night. So the question is, total aber ration or are they starting to look a little like Nick Series Celtics last year? I will say um the two things that scare me a tiny bit. Derek White has uh really been bad from three since January 1st. He's under 31% from three now. He's two for ten tonight. And the Knicks seemed uh the uh Sixers seemed totally fine with him shooting from three. Um, whereas I think in November, December would not have been as fine. It got to the point I was wondering if they might take him out and put Shireman in, which was the second thing I didn't understand. Shireman only played 11 minutes. He's been a super sub for the last couple months, indispensable, and that led to the third thing I didn't understand. The move seemed to me go small with Tatum at the five, because he you could still get the rebounding from him. Tatum, Brown, Shireman, Pritchard, and White, or take White out and put Hauser in. Um I just I didn't really understand the lineups. I voted for Joe for coach of the year. I did not think he did had a good game today. Um and the Vusevich thing I just don't get. I know offensively he had decent stats, but I I think he really hurts them defensively. And I thought the Sixers took advantage of him. I don't think he's fast enough to jump out on three-point shooters. Um, he's not really a rim protector. And if I'm playing the Sixers and there's no embied and I'm playing Bono and Drummond, like I'm fine going small against them. Let's go small again. What are they going to do? Post up one of those guys? So playing Tatum at the five seems like the move. Uh it did worry me a little that they looked like game one, game two, two thousand twenty-five Knicks. Uh I did get some flashbacks, some PTSD. My daughter and my dad were there, and uh my daughter was furious after the game. I was very proud, but she was excited that they showed them on the jumbotron and my dad wasn't looking and she was hitting him to look. And uh multiple people texted me about this that it was like watching a little sick home with my dad and my daughter. So congrats to them. Wish I'd been there. I'm not nervous about this Celtic series yet. Right now the odds are Celtics minus five ten . So FanDuel is not nervous either. The Portland odds, Portland is plus 410 to win the series now, San Antonio is minus 55 0. Um, the only series the two series seemed like a wrap: Phoenix, OKC, and Toronto, Cleveland, and it's unclear. Toronto should have just passed on the playoff invitation. Like when you get invited to a wedding and you send your regrets and just send a gift. I kind of wish Toronto had done that with the playoffs. All right. That's the uh that's that's the panic the p MBA panic room heading into tomorrow night. Can't wait to watch Orlando and Detroit. Again, I'm sorry to everybody at the ringer that I made you stay up tonight. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna go backwards in time. I'm gonna talk to McShea and Mench. Uh, big long convo about the NFL draft, and I'm gonna look a lot more awake in one second after this break. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are here. Everything's on the line. Eyver possession matters. Every bucket swings the game. And tonight is your shot. Boost your bet. That's right. All customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your wing gets bigger, because that's how profit boosts work. Lock in your beds, boost your odds, make the playoffs pay off with FanDuel official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com slash BS to get started. FanDuel, play your game. Twenty-one plus select states or eighteen plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fannule.com. Game problem call one eight hundred gambar. Call eight eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven seven or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, listen up. Ralph's King Supers, Harris Teeter, Food for Less, Kroger, many more. Now on Uber Eats. And you get 40% off your order of $30 or more. Maybe you're trying a new recipe and need some last minute ingredients. That's a possibility. Maybe the kids made a mess. You're lower on cleaning supplies than you thought. Whatever you need, you can get it delivered to you in as little as twenty-five minutes. So order now in Uber Eats, get 40% off your order of $30 or more with code Kroger 2026 plus Uber One members get zero dollar delivery fees. I love Uber One. I'm an Uber one member. Orders of thirty dollars or more save up to $25 ends April 30th, 2026. See app for details . All right, McShay and Metch are here. They are here all week doing uh the Todd McShay show. The McShay Show, which is behind us. I like that. You like that little fancy thingy? Yeah. So we're using your set. I love that. Um , last time I talked to you, we weren't, I wasn't that excited about the draft, and then you kind of forty five minutes later you fluffed me a little bit. Yeah, you got me a little excited about it. He's a great fluffer. Barely excited by the end. Now I'm way more excited. It's uh there's there's never a bad draft, man. That's the thing. Like even the uh for entertainment value, there's never a bad draft. There's bad drafts but there's no players. Right. Yeah. But it's like Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is always gonna be good 'cause at some point there's gonna be food to eat. And it always gets hectic. There's always family drama before Thanksgiving. It's the same thing here. And and I like I got lied to I think about the Jets pick. And that's okay. I'm here for it. You got lied to I think so. I did see you did a little switch. Yeah. Yeah. Double back. And and and by the way, like the draft's not here. We'll we'll see what happens. But I get the strong sense that the Jets worth getting that out there. I always get nervous about because I was the only one saying R Bell Reese, so and then a couple other people a little bit, but I always get nervous when everyone all of a sudden on a Monday after a weekend talks are saying the same thing. So the Jeremiah Love thing, I just I I worry about that at number two uh uh uh number three. But it looks like Bailey. Uh they're doing a good job of being really quiet about it, even though there's really no reason that to be quiet outside of hey, everyone thinks we're taking Bailey. But who are they trying to fake out? Listen , David Bailey. I I I actually had to have this internal conversation with myself . David Bailey's been kind of the what the everyone in league circles has kind of assumed, right, for a while. Let's throw out there we might take Arvell Reese and see if someone's more interested in Reese and get the get, you know, because there's people talking about Arizona. We're gonna move up whichever pass rusher doesn't go to go to, we you know, uh the pick is open at Arizona at number three. Why not why not us get the phone calls? I have a feeling that that's what was going on. The only thing I don't like about this theory is it's the jets. Yeah. That involves foresight, a plan, understanding. Strategy, like like ch chess moves moving around. Yeah. And if if it's true, what I'm kind of surmising, then I I think I think Darryl Mo uh Muji is is doing a pretty good job of managing this thing. If there are two guys who play the same position basically and people are arguing about which one's better? I'm I'm j I always parachute in the draft every year, basically knowing nothing and trying to learn on the fly. Why wouldn't you take the guy who's two years younger? Is that just too obvious or am I not? It's actually not. You you would be I don't think you'd be surprised, it but it's's surprising how much um Because Reese is two years younger. Emphasis is put into the the age for a defensive prospect specifically. But if it was me, I would take the younger guy. He is two years l it's like getting a car from two thousand twenty four versus twenty six or something. But it's a five year lease of miles. It's a five year lease. You're not gonna keep it for the life of the car, you know what I mean? So if you like the car better and you get a better lease But nobody can agree which one of these guys are better. Why wouldn't I just take the younger guy? I would take R Vell Reese, but I've got to have a defensive coach. If I'm the general manager, I've got to have a defensive coach that can lay out what exactly is the plan to show me how it's gonna work. Yeah. Because this guy's more talented. Okay. The talent isn't quite developed. He's a one year starter at Ohio State. He starts So that means higher higher talent, higher bus potential. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Someone brought this up on X. I wanna I actually meant to run this by you before we even got on here. But we're talking about the Jets again. So if you have a plan for this kid, that's great. Is Aaron Glenn going to be their head coach next year? Right. Or in or in October. Or in October. Like exactly. So then then the plan's out the window. And if you're if you're muji, are you thinking to yourself, I don't know who's gonna be the coach next year, I'm gonna take the the guy who's been playing Edge his whole life. The the information I got 10 days ago, I think it's 10 days now. It was a it was the Sunday before this past Sunday was what's your football sense if you want the sure thing and that Daryl Muji is is a a a human risk aversion. I I compared it yesterday to along came Paulie, then then still, right? Like just a human uh risk aversion corporation, like walking down the street, like everything's about risk. And apparently that's that's kind of his DN Um I I would argue the better player who the fallback is, I'm getting Devin Lloyd . It that to me is is less risk than drafting David Bailey and maybe he's just a DPR designated pass rusher and he's not very good versus the run. So like it's true. But this guy we know can rush the quarterback better than anyone in this draft . And yes, it's with speed, and yes, he's gotta kinda get stronger and all that. But let's go with the guy that's proven as a pass rusher, because that's the most important thing you can do in this league outside of being a quarterback. FanDuel has Reese minus 130, Bailey plus 115 on Tuesday afternoon as we record. Did that flip from yesterday? Yes. This morning I looked. This morning I looked and it was like it was still plus one sixty. And then I looked four hours ago and it was minus one ten. So it is shifting rapidly. Yeah. Betting on the draft is like betting on roulette while doing cocaine. It's insane. The odds are just like, oh , it's just going crazy at all times. I would I I never do draft bets. The only one that seems like it hits every year is like the more offensive linemen than we thought. Right. Yeah. Seems like every year it's like, no, it's gonna be seven. No, actually it's ten. Yep. Because we get in the draft and everybody's like, oh fuck, we need a right tackle. I would bet it's at eight and a half. I haven't looked, but I would bet it's at eight and a half. For the over underscore. Yeah. So maybe a second guard that sneaks in. Right. Keelan Rutledge from Georgia. Seven and a half. Oh, I think that's a fucking bang that one, right? Pound it right now. Take it right now. I laugh whenever I see that 's gonna be at least eight. There's seven tackles and one guard. I think nine, but yeah, you're right. It's gonna be somebody. Inacho are still sitting there at thirty one? Absolutely. Yeah. Um you putting that in right now? No, I'll do I'll do it after. I have a bunch of questions tied to the draft, but this is my favorite one. What do the Giants do at number five? Because they also have number ten. Yeah. If the first four picks. Yep. Okay . Mendo za Reese to the Jets. Arizona says fuck it and takes love. Yep. And then Salah and Tennessee go fuck it and they take styles. So it goes Mendoza Reese loves styles. Now the Giants are on the clock. What happens? Bailey. You think they would take Bailey anyway. With Bailey. I I was told by somebody that because even if you flip-flop and it's Bailey, it's Bailey at two and it's Reese at five, sitting at five. Either way. Um I was I was told, but I don't believe it, that they would they would take the edge rusher, best available, and and uh K-Bon Thibodeau would be trade I think that was a CD that was a little nugget in Schefter's article. He had all these trade guys. These are guys that could be traded and all of a sudden you see Kayvon Thibodeau and I was like, I haven't heard that name. Yeah. But that was last year's trade that was going to happen, remember? Yeah. Yeah. Well they'll they'll drop. So. then all of a sudden it was in there I was like, that's that jumps out to me. So if they they could get rid of one of them. The the Giants are fascinating, right? Because the Giants are sitting there at five and now they've got pick ten . Which was an awesome trade. I didn't talk about that trade on the podcast. I that was like I was staggered by that trade. Yeah. Trading a defensive tackle. I know he's good. And his late late 20s is expensive. And doesn't yeah, it doesn't matter. And now I just get to reset with the 10th pick and a draft that basically has 12 good guys and then drops off. Like that's like that trade's a miracle. Yeah. I thought the Giants would have had to throw in at least like a third to even the CSAM. Something about the Ravens. Like the the Ravens, like Aussie Newsom and down to Eric DeCosta now. It seems like they but they sit back, they're patient, they wait they exploit other teams. And now Harbaugh comes from the Ravens, exploiting other teams for being overly eager in a moment. Who's stopping the run for the Giants though? I mean they have I mean they were like giving up five yards of carry last year. There's no defensive tackles there. But they they pick thirty-five in the second round. Yeah, they'll get a guy there. They'll get a good guy there. They'll get a guy there. I thought for the Bengals that I I interrupted you, but the Bengals, that trade was insane. You're paying like $110 million a year to a quarterback and two receivers. You And I give her twenty-eight million. Your defense is terrible. And it's like, well, we're gonna get this guy. We're gonna bring him in. He's he's the best defensive tackle in the league. Cool. Now he's gonna be double teamed the whole time. Yeah. You have nobody else on your defense. Like as an AFC fan of the Patriots, yeah, I was like, great trade, guys. You did it. Yeah. You're gonna be a fucking mess. But the Giants sit there at five, right? And a week ago, we would have said it Caleb Downs is one of the players they'd like the safety from Ohio State. Jordan Tyson is one of the players. They don't they don't um conceal their interest in players. Joe Shane goes they Shane and H Harbaugh were already at the Arizona State Pro Day where Jordan Tyson didn't work out.. Yeah And then Shane went back out for the air the the Jordan Tyson workout, which was just like 30 something routes and catching the ball. Yeah, that was a don't get hurt workout. Yeah. But everyone's injury prone guy working out all the time. Just run a straight line and turn around. Yeah. But everyone loved it. It was a great workout. Yeah. And then has I think dinner with Tyson or so we know there's interest there, but uh I don't know, a week, ten days ago we would have said you'd better take downs at five and and you can get Tyson at ten. I honestly think with um with sitting at seven would be a possibility although I think Dan Quinn is is going defense there. He's pushing with Adam Peters to go defense. And it could be Sonny Styles. If not Styles, Caleb Downs at seven. But eight is eight is New Orleans, and that could be a spot um where where Jordan Tyson goes. Nine Kansas Nine Kansas City. George Tyson New Orleans just sounds awful. Why? What do you mean? But no , no, that's not right. Don't they have like a top three worst medicine training recovery like situation them in the power. I mean Chris Chris Olave, that's this works for him, right? Yeah. He's always makes me nervous. Yeah. So regardless. My point is I don't know that Tyson gets there. And so Caleb Downs is much more likely to get there um but may not get there either so and then you hear but there's no there's no scenario where they can end up with Downs and Styles, the Giants? They don't want Styles, apparently. Because they signed Edmonds. They signed Edmonds. Yeah. Honestly. That deal's not huge though. It's not huge. Um I mean that's the MacDaddy move. Because I was looking at the Giants odds. First of all, seven and a half wins over under for the like that all the signs for them are they're gonna be this year's Patriots, right? If not healthy. Fourth place schedule, new coach, like just they they're checking all the boxes. Seven half wins seems too low, plus two eighty for the playoffs, plus five fifty for the division. That seems too high. Yeah. If they got two blue chip, blue chip, blue chip, five and ten guys, and then hit the second round pick, you're good right away. Yeah. Cause they already had a bunch of good players and they underachieved last year. You know, they how many times did they have the lead in the second half of a game? What if Jeremiah Love is still sitting there at five? You love this. You want to give love to everyone. But yeah, I get it. Scadwood is not going to stay healthy. No, I hear Well, so if they got love and downs, and you got the best running back in the draft by far, and then you have a safety, and I want to talk about downs in a second. Um, you just get the two best guys in the position who four years from now could be like all pros. Yeah. Or three years from now, whatever. But but that the downstairing, I I was just on tailgate. I stopped by there for a second. I we do this with the draft every year. I've talked to you about it before , where everyone knows Downs is gonna be awesome . He's gonna go like 10th. And then three years from now, we're gonna do the do the redraft. And it's like and number two, Caleb Downs. Yeah. Kyle Hamilton. Kyle Hamilton. Ed Reed crossed with Kyle Hamilton. He's just amazing. And wow, what a great pick. And it's like, but we knew that before this draft that he was going to be a great pick. So how do you go tenth? It's the position value thing. And then you add to position value. He he didn't run. We know he's not like his miles per hour is equated like to four point five type forty , not as long as so you got all those things working against you, but but why not? He's not gonna fall. Same thing for Hamilton, right? It's like what is he? What position is he? Yeah. Is he a hybrid? Well turned out great. Yeah. Yeah. Really great. So I I think he could go as high as seven , uh maybe five, but um but it would s I don't know. It the Giants are fascinating and also there's like hard this you don't pay Harbaugh what a hundred million to to be the guy without letting him be the guy . Um and and that's the indication I get, but there seems to be nervous too. Yeah. He was on pace to getting fired the first Lamar Jackson year. Yep. And then Lamar Jackson saved his ass. Last couple years weren't awesome. And then it's like, here are the car keys, make all the decisions for us. Zay Flowers said? What? The practices were that's why we had so many injuries. The practices were too hard. He didn't know how to manage our workload. He doesn't do well with the the cur current players. Like he just doesn't know how to pull back a little bit. And that would be interesting. And he's got a bunch of all gas, no brakes guys in Sc ataboo and Dart and you mean you kinda want those guys to maybe pull back a little bit and it's not like the Giants have been staying real healthy. It's it's a good point. Yeah. No, well I mean, I just I'm fascinated which way they go because the first pick there . You get the sense this is Joe Shane's last is the GM, but I don't know, you know? Yeah. Um he he had a tremendous management of a draft last year, but the last time they had two top ten picks it was what, um Hibodeau and and another Evan Neal maybe I think it was Evan Neal and so are we gonna repeat history with that and the offensive tackle are you waiting to 10 to get an offensive tackle no offensive tackles were off the board in that scenario, right? It was right. Well that's the other thing. We d live through this with the draft every year where it's like, Yeah, I don't think they'll go to nine or ten and then they go six and the teams get in there and they just panic. Yeah. They can't figure out who to pick and they just go with size. Yeah. How high, what's the highest downs could go that you would be either of you that you would be actually kind of shocked by? Like Arizona is out of the question. Top four would be sh anywhere in the top four. So Tennessee, but he 's not going there. So Yeah, it wouldn't shock me if he went fifth, but I would I wouldn't do it. And I just heard you guys say all those things about it, but give me a top eight offensive tackle in the league versus the best safety. Like that's that's gonna win games. I get it. Yeah. I was doing all the research for running backs because this ties into the love conversation. And it feels like top five is just too high for certain positions, even though we know when you do redo the draft. Yep. But six to ten is not too high. So if you go through all the running backs basically the last twenty years, the two, two, two, and three were Ronnie Brown, Bush, Reggie Bush, Barkley, and Trent Richardson. So I'm gonna say those first four, three of them, no way that team does it again. Yep. No. And Richardson. Barkley Barkley's still defensible. Yes. A hundred percent. He was incredible. Right. Right? And who was the next pick? It was a quarterback. It was like Trubisky or somebody. I don't remember. No, Trubisky was third, remember? Oh no, you scored the bears. Mitchell it was some sort of QB, so two, two, two, three, we went one for four, even if you count Barclay as a hit. He's a hit. It was there probably. And you go count Reggie Bush, right? I don't. I don't either. He won the Super Bowl. Yeah, no, I don't either. But Pierre Thomas was the better running back in that in the Super Bowl in that year. So four, four, and six, Leonard Fournette, Darren McFadden, and Genty last year. I think I don't think any of those teams do that again. Even Genty, who I thought had some moments, but I just don't think the Raiders would have done that if they could redo that. I think they would take alignment. Yeah. Yeah. Get a hit ahead. But now we go to seven eight. I think he's gonna have a good year this year. But yes, I agree with the pro the problem, like the Bichon and Peterson seven, McCaffrey eight, Bichon eight. Yeah. Yep. Pretty good value. Yeah. And then CJ Spower nine, Zeke Elliott ,10 Girlie 10. All right. So this is a fucking random sample size. But what I learned from that is maybe wait till six to ten to take love because history says you go earlier, that's a mistake. Yeah, and it probably indicates teams that are a little bit better than the trash at the time, you know? Right. You know, teams picking it's like the Chiefs are picking at nine, you know? Um , Peterson was in a good situation pretty immediately in Minnesota. Right. So whereas like Genty goes to the Raiders and it's not a good situation. Typically four doesn't go to the Super Bowl. Like pick four doesn't go to the Super Bowl. That's not a normal, you know, occurrence like we saw with the Patriots last year. So I it's all about where they wind up landing. I d all all positions are dependent upon to a certain degree. Quarterback, absolutely, but running back, I would argue maybe the most dependent upon what you have in front of you and and how you can how you can block it up. And the Raiders weren't ready and all those teams you mentioned weren't ready for that guy. So did you guys like the Bengals trade for the Bengals or no? The Bengals trade for uh Lawrence? Yeah. No. Okay. Yeah. Just wanted to make sure. I here's the thing. I don't like it in a lot of drafts. I don't hate it as much in this draft. I really don't because he he's by far the best defensive tackle in this class if he was to be there. Like who you're getting at ten that's better than Dexter Lawrence. So you'd rather have four years of Lawrence versus the tenth pick in this draft. Yes. The only part of the paying more and then Well wasn't part of it that they had the cap space to to grab the extra money to fit in and so basically instead of paying the tenth pick this, they could pay the tenth pick this. Yes. Yes. I just would never do it. I would rather trade first of all, the Bengals needed players. I'd rather trade backwards than try to pick up more stuff. Yeah, true. The problem is urgency that is created by situations. And that's why I started this with the Ravens. The Ravens are have always been good at this, this thing. And some organizations are really good at , there's going to be an opportunity by an organization that is going to be presented to us because they're desperate. And if you've got Joe Burrow and the injuries and the timeline and now the contracts with the wide receivers, you are desperate to win now . And and I think this is a desperate move. And honestly, it almost never pays off. If you go look at the history, these desperate moves almost never pay off. I wonder if somebody could run a football team and just stick to like like somebody hires me as the GM and I'm just like I only have seven principles, guys. Yeah . I'm never paying two receivers a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good in the draft. I'm just taking alignment on one side of the ball or the other. That's all I'm doing. Yeah. Um I'm gonna try to get us a quarterback. Like just bear I'm always gonna trade back if I can't decide what to do. And these are my seven tenants and I'll leave everything else to my scouting department. Yeah. They can no one can stick to it though. They always fall in love with a player. Yeah. You know. If I ever got a GM job, if I ever gone that route and taken some opportunities, I like I've always said there's a couple people in my life I would hire whole time. The common sense guys. The common sense guys who are paying like Pete Woodfork works for major league baseball. Pain in my ass my whole life since we were like ten years old. Always does the right thing. Sticks by the you know, and like it's so you're the Jets GM and you call Pete and you're like , Reese or Bailey, what would you do? And he's like, What the fuck? And he and I'm gonna give him like four or five things that he's allowed to overrule me on because my emotion or or the situation or no way. You would never give anyone that power. I'm telling you there's certain things that are blind spots for all of us, including general managers in the NFL. And there are certain principles if you just stick to them, it's like playing um it's like playing blackjack, like over time, but like who has the patience to play . So you wouldn't let him overrule you on like three things? You wouldn't? I think I'm off the list after the Dexter Lawrence thing. There are a couple of things. This guy just got cut. He's a good he's a good bounce. Is that what we're calling it bouncing off one another? Argue. Yeah, thanks. We're gonna get this all week. Yeah, exactly. It is funny, like we Jalen Rose and I, when we were doing the countdown show in 2013, we did this this gimmick called the interview. Yep. And we we went to the lottery combine or wherever and we interviewed every person. We spent 15 minutes with each one in like a we had cameras and rapid fire. Get a feel ers. For each person. Yeah. And I can totally see how the how the people can get enamored with certain players. Now, ironically, the ones we got enamored with actually turned out to be good. Like we love CJ McCollum. Yeah. We're like, this guy's great. Like he seems really mature. Like and then his tape and we're like, I I would bet on this guy. Yeah. But the reality is you're spending fifteen to twenty minutes with somebody and you're overrated the reaction. But it's hard not to. It's human nature. Right. And it's amazing what goes into this. And how m you think about how many people and how many flights and how many car rides and how many visits and how many people in the in the cafeteria to the train ing room to all that you have these NFL scouts and the salary money and everything that goes into this process, right? And you're handed as a general manager this basically a portfolio, if you will, of everything you need to know in this human being. Yeah. And then the analytics department comes in and tells you all the things you can and can't do and all that. And then you've got the whether it's AIQ or different intellectual testing. And then you have the psychologists, it's psychologists and all that. It's amazing to me that we get to this point in the process in like the last month. Then the private jet gets , you know, it and four or five of the people who are the most influential people go and they have dinner with , they um, they meet with family agent, they go and they throw some passes out in the, you know, out in the side field, or they put them through a test, they get them on the board, and they wind up notot necessarily disregarding, but that kind of trumps it. Now all of that information is used to to kind of to shrink the pool, right? Yeah. So it's down to four or five. They're just grabbing tidbits is every place they can. But that that twenty-four hour interaction maybe over two whether it's a come into our facility, we go out to you in your your college town, like I don't know, ten to twenty hours worth of interaction typically winds up trumping a lot of other stuff. Would you trust what the coach said? Because I wouldn't really trust it that much unless the coach was so psychotic about how much he loved the guy. It has to be earned. Like it has to be something that he's told you in the past about a player. He has a track record right of telling you that like you cannot do it right out of the game. I mean tell him about Jamarcus Russell and all the the the S I D at LSU telling about ere you talking about your own coach or the coach from the school? Oh the coach from the school I met. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Unless it's negative or like you said a track right. Right. The interesting one is your own coach. And that dynamic. But but I wouldn't trust my own coach that much at all. Well you gotta make sure it fits the scheme or else you're giving them some. I know, but NFL coaches last three to four years barring like exactly America. I would be really interested in the parent interactions because I do think like you could you could learn a little something? My favorite story of all this stuff was it this might be a apocryphal, but it was when the Celtics had the Markel Fultz, Jason Tatum, that when they had the number one pick. Yeah. And they brought Markel Fultz to Boston to meet him for the week end. And he he was really shy. And but they he apparently he asked if uh if Boston had Chick-fil-A. Like if they had Chick-fil-A franchises in Boston, and they're like, no, it's not, we don't have it in Boston. And he was like crestfallen . And they were like, uh-oh. Like it's set up some sort of red flag that he was like, you don't have chick-fil-a? And that's amazing. I have no idea if the story's true, but it's so good, I almost can't think it'd be made up. But that's the kind of thing that like, oh shit. This guy really likes to make filet in Philly then either. On the other hand, I love Chick-fil-A, so I can see it from his side too. Yeah. I see it from both sides. Yeah. But those that was his big Boston questions. So like, huh. You're judging us now, huh? Are you gonna fit here? Um All right. So Giants at five and ten is the most fun team in this draft. Arizona's kind of the most pathetic. They're just wearing a cocktail dress at the bar like anybody want three? Anyone? Guys want to have a drink? Three trade downs. Anyone. Yeah There's also an element with the ownership where you're not you're you're out at the bar by yourself, but you're still being controlled by who's making that decision. And I'm depends on who you you listen to now. There there's been a lot just talking to people in the league, there's there's been talk of maybe ownership wants Jeremiah Love at three and and That's a whole nother factor, man. These owners that come in like that's the guy I want. And um Arizona needs so many things I don't even know what they need. If I was doing the team needs, I'd be like, ah, players. Have you looked at the Dolphins roster? Well that's I mean that's the saddest situation . It is. It's it's beyond I mean at least they have a lot of picks, so it's interesting, but I mean it's bad. I mean bad. Well it's it's weird when you trade Jalen Waddell for 30, and then you see all the receivers who are gonna be available at 30, and yeah, their best case scenario is to be maybe as good as Jalen Waddle. Right, like a notch below a notch below. Yeah. Yeah. They need so much. I don't know that I've ever been this late in the process studying rosters and really diving in and felt more helpless about about a roster. I actually believe it in Miami. Miami. I believe in John Eric Sullivan. I believe in Jeff Halfley. I like I think they're the right people to stabilize this thing. Um, but it's gonna take more than a minute to get this thing turned around. They've got I think that would be fun to just you have no pressure because you need so many things. It's like, all right, this is like blank slate time. And we hear BPA, best player available all the time. Like they literally can just sit there, like legs up. Yeah. Where's our board? Okay, there it is. Um yeah. Call it in. Who's number three? Yeah. Take 'em . Whereas like I think the Chiefs have an incredible amount of pressure. I would say the Giants have the most pressure. Yeah. Because they you you gotta nail these picks, but then Chiefs at nine and they're forty two . But they they had this Mahomes window that I watched it and you watched it with Brady. Yeah. You watched it as well. Yeah. Where the draft just ebbed and flowed the the Brady arc. And there were years clustered drafts where they just missed drafts. They're going into that that era of they're gonna go they're gonna be very competitive for seven or eight years, but they're gonna win a Super Bowl. That's what it feels like to me with the Chiefs. Comes down in the drafts. Mahomes will keep them in it. Yeah. But now it's the roster turnover. The early Patriots dynasty was a totally different roster than the later Patriots dynasty. Kelsey moving on. Chris Jones is still playing a unbelievable level. They've been in that for two years. They've got to be felt that last year. I felt it a year before, to be honest with you, and I think Mahomes but you know what I mean? I felt I I honestly the years that the last year they went to the Super Bowl and and lost. I think getting overpowered by Philly. Yeah. I think about the comp all the time. The one thing that's really interesting is Andy Reid's not as young as Belichick was when they went to the first and he was terrible last year. I I thought they were really poorly coached last year. And everyone's afraid to criticize Andy Reid, but they were badly coached. He's self assessed that in in in you know in so many ways. Like he he's reinvigorated. Like he he I think he recognized it wasn't I mean he I don't think he's three, four years left, coaching. Also, they really and Belichick did this too, and we've seen teams do this, like really explored the capacity of how many iffy guys can we bring in? Guys with baggage. What do you mean? Yeah. Bella check sometimes these guys can have so much success and these teams can have so much success of like oh it's fine. It's it's one misdemeanor. Yeah. You know, or it's like, no, no, he's mostly on time. Right. Yeah. And I remember who was the what was Josh Gordon was a class Josh. Josh Gordon. But Belichick just went in that mode. Like, it'll be fine. We'll bring them in. We'll figure it out. The Chiefs had a lot of those, and I think they were probably at capacity. Yep. I think they were. What do you think they needed nine? Because the easy one would be like take the best corner. It's right, it's in the vicinity of where you'd go. I think they're gonna get a corner. They pick they pick at nine and thirty, right? Yeah, twenty-nine . Uh twenty-nine. Yeah, Miami's at 30. And then Patriots 31 and obviously Seattle. The interesting element is the in this is I think they want they if they were to get aggressive, which I would, I would not do, but I would understand, it would be to move up for a pass rusher. Like So the the Reese Bailey leftover guy . Can we get up there and grab him? Conversations have been made that doesn't there are a lot of conversations have been made that things we never even knew about, you know, and you find out after the fact. Um, it doesn't mean a trade's gonna happen. I don't moving up from nine to three costs a a lot. And I don't think they're in the Would you trade nine and forty for three in this draft? Because I would rather just stay at nine. No, I say forty, right? Yeah. So you can get a Ruben Bain. So there's that edge rusher. They need a they need a wide receiver they can count, right? So there's that element of it. Then there's this Andy Reed. Like my understanding is Andy Reed's like we've got to get another offensive lineman. And I don't know where you get the but you could take it nine. Yeah. But you can't take it at twenty-nine. You can't count on that being there at twenty-nine. Now, maybe you maybe move up from twenty-nine to twenty-four and it costs a whole lot less or something like that. So See, I wonder if they're gonna do that with tight end . Sadiq? Yeah. Nine? No, at moving up to like the low teens or high twenties if they feel like they have a chance to swoop in and get him. If they love him, they could. Brett Veach is not a afraid to pull the trigger. Yeah. But I just I the manage managing the element of we need an edge rusher, we need a we need a wide receiver, we need a a replacement for um Kelsey. They need a tackle. And we and we need a tackle and Andy really wants us to get a tackle. Yeah. And there's only seven of 'em and that might not get to twenty nine. So we need those three things. We we're not in the business of giving away picks to go move up. Also tough when you already use draft Capital to draft the tackle, but now you've decided that's not the tackle. Right. That's where the Patriots got in that spot a couple of times. I just don't know how you're going into this and the right tackle, Jalen Moore, has started I think five or six games at the most in a season. I would have been a little bit more stance murdered. I would have been pissed on X about there. You can't use that pick on a guy who's not going to be a starter. I was like, What are you talking about? Like, this guy's probably gonna start. Like, I want you to think about how much money these organizations spend, right? Simmons is so talented as at left tackle. I would I'm not gonna make any incident, I would have whatever care team that was necess ary , whatever that would be, okay, to be like round the clock. Let's get let's make sure this guy has everything he needs because he is the personal protector of the most of the number one. Ricky Williams of Texas, do you remember that SA story that came out where he was like dropping banana peels behind him and someone would pick him up and throw them out for him? Just because that guy Ricky Williams, like it's I always think about that. Because there's no salary cap on support.. Yeah That guy's your answer. Coaches and and support. Yeah. The two things you could just spend whatever you want. Right. So I I would get that guy right . I think it might be over for them . I mean, at least for this window of it. Is that you just being hopeful as a Patriots fan or two years ago? This is this is they Mahomes coming off now . Pretty pretty devastating injury. It's good I the only reason I'm mentioning this is they have the seventh best odds to win the Super Bowl right now. And that seems crazy to me. They like they think about all the things that would have to go right for them to be a Super Bowl to o. That's because that's because there's a lot of people who would put money on it because it it's the Chiefs and yeah. I get it, but I'm saying I'd say but it's instructive because that's the perception is they're gonna flip the switch and be fine this year. And I I feel the opposite. I don't think I'd be really surprised. I mean they're gonna have an easier schedule. The unknown, obviously, is how when Mahomes comes back, is it? Yeah, what's it gonna be like? What's he gonna be? Brady wasn't when he came back in 09 , the offense was good, but I really felt like it took him like an extra year to be Brady. There's that flame famous Belichick clip of like follow through, man. Like follow through. Yeah. Because you you you get all these guys going around your legs, and I don't know. I I just felt like it took a while for him not to think about that. It's in your brain, like you when you spend the entire off-season recover ing and rehabbing and you're w worrying about like one thing, really? Yeah, r truly, that's the one thing. And then so you get out there and you're protecting that one thing. So it takes a minute to get over it. What was always the knock on the Patriots run was the AFCs which is garbage every Coming on and you're gonna have a tough time in that division. That's the team I think they're the one I'm the most afraid of in the AFC is the Chargers. I agree. Why do we talk about San Francisco's injuries? I swear to you, I've been I've been doing this for twenty-six years. I swear to you, I've been talking about the Chargers injuries for a good eighteen of those years. Yeah. Some organizations above this. I button next to that. Yeah. It's in their But every year it seems like the charge, oh, they could have they were they they'll get those guys back from injury and it'll be just fine. So I I I hope, I hope so. It would be great to see. Um, but they're frightening if they stay healt hy. Frightening. Yes. Yes. Yeah, they what are their odds? Yeah, so they have the fifth best odds. That makes sense to me. Fifteen to one. Yes. Better, slightly better odds than the Pats . Um the Giants being seventy-one is pretty crazy. Because that seems I just think those I think that'll be thirty to one by the time the season starts. They're gonna have enough talent with the schedule, and we just have seen this every year that there's no way they're they're not going to be in the mix somehow. This isn't a draft thing, but spending this amount of time like really diving into these rosters. Yeah. I mean obviously the Seahawks have what they have, the Rams have what they have. I don't know that there's an organization with a better roster, let's just say in the AFC, top to bottom roster wise, than what Nick Cassarios built in Houston. The quarterback element of it and what is really going on there, and there's been speculation and rumors and all like and you drafted him that high, and he was that good as a rookie. You know what I mean? If if they get him right, and I don't even mean right, like playing as but like three quarters of what he was playing as a rookie. Yeah. Um twenty to twenty to one for them. They're friendly. Yeah. But but that's the biggest if in sports. Yeah. Like they're rostered like some teams with needs, it's like the first two are really important needs. The second one we need to get some depth, the third, you know, or the third, the fourth, and but for them, like they there's yes, their offensive line, let's continue to build that, but they don't have a lot of like they're loaded with deep and wide receiver and uh running back this area. Their defenses. The Rams are up there too, man. I mean, I no think that, I said the R Ramsam in Seattle have what they but I mean I was gonna talk about the Rams with one of the pressure teams at thirteen because the Puka thing's a huge story. I don't know it's been one of those kicked under the rug. And then finally went into rehab and this was the best receiver in the league. Yeah. And I we have no idea what we're gonna expect from him this year now or what was going on with him or is it gonna get better? And they're one of the teams that's just like we're probably taking a receiver, we're probably taking a receiver like so so blatantly that I almost don't trust it. I don't think they are at at thirteen. I think they're gonna take a receiver in the second round. Yeah, yeah. There's like I I bore you out with this like attraction is different, right? Like you know, like I like one one person could you could be attracted to and everyone's beautiful and all that um for the blonde brunette yeah yeah for the Rams they with their system specifically they're not attracted to a lot of the fast est tallest all those receivers. They're attracted to one type. And that one type is a physical son of a bitch, blocking, contact balance, toughness up. And we're going to scheme you up and we'll get you open. And all you got to do is break that first tackle and just ramble, you know, and keep it rolling and block for our for our run game. And so I can get that in the second round. There's Dejan Stribling from Ole Miss. There's Jeremy Bernard from from uh from Alabama. So I I I think Les neat is the biggest wild card in this first round of the draft. They seem like a downsy kind of team to me. I so here like moving up like a couple spots and just swooping in and getting up. They have guys there. I don't know if it's, you know, like they have players. It's one of two things, right? I just I don't envision less and Sean sitting back at 13 and we'll take a guard or we'll take a it's either we are all in as a as all indicators are pointing that well they ha they have to be all in in general because Stafford's got two years left max. Right. We're all in and like we really don't like if we want to give up twenty twenty seven, we're we're not we're not that worried about it. We can give up second next year or something like that and go move up and target a guy. Jeremiah Love is fascinating to me if he starts to fall. Six. Cleveland. Yeah. I mean, can we stop ? Can we can we make a rule that he can't go to Cleveland? No, no, I'm saying trading. I'm just saying, like you don't want him to go. That's my worst case scenario for him. Yeah. Or or for most of the guys in the track. Yeah. But yeah, so you're saying ramp switching going to say something like that would be would be something to look out for. Like a little girl like Todd Gurley 2.0 action for that? But then what if it's a total pivot and it's like, yeah, we're gonna be here beyond Stafford, and let's we're and we're gonna we're doing a deal now with Matthew and we're gonna keep him happy. But but we are in love with Ty Simpson and so we're just gonna take him at thirteen . We can move on, don't ask more questions. We don't have to dwell on it, but I'm just saying I said it. Yep. Okay, next question. Mackerel. Wouldn't you at least trade back to do that ? He's going higher than you think. That was one of my uh one of the questions I had for you, because I I was watching uh one of the channels this morning. They were talking about is 21 too high to take Ty Simpson for Pittsburgh? I'm like, what are you guys talking about? He's definitely the question is, will he be there at 21 for Pittsb urgh to take? 'Cause somebody's gonna shoot their wide and take him in the top twenty, would be my prediction. I that's the information I'm getting and I don't definitively know. I throw the Rams out there because I'm getting information definitely. And I know the Rams at one point really like Ty Simpson. Like that's that's firm. His Fando draft position is twenty-nine point five under. Yeah. Yeah, because even if you're the even if you're the Cardinals, you are you're worried that there's another team or I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You can't wait. Yeah. I'm I'm told that the Jets do have have interest, but I'm also I was told that the Jets have interest. No, no. Um at thirty three could take him. I think he's not getting out of the first round. Like I just don't see it. We're saying the same thing. Yeah. That's the secret sauce to all of this. You get the fifth year if you take him the first ro You talked about Pittsburgh. Is Aaron Rodgers going to make an appearance and say he's coming back in front of the tens of thousands of draft fans there? And then what would the reaction be? No, because Aaron Rodgers won out. How many times are we getting put? I don't even understand why like Schefter and and those like why people are out there, and I know at he and those two have a thing and I love it, right? Um but I don't even understand why there's the this like you, know, it it you should tell the organization this time. Like we get it's every year, it's the same thing. It's just the human being. The human being, Aaron Rodgers, wants this and he would like nothing more. Going out there gives closure and then we're still not talking about it through the second day of the draft. Him and Jerry Jones are the two that like how how can I get attention? Right. This is gonna be going on in late March. At the draft . Yeah, late June. Late. No question. Yeah. It'll be going on June. In Pittsburgh, you can go out in front of all the fans. He wants us all to be like, Is Aaron here? You know? Yeah. I I mean I'm here for it. Kind of the sad thing about that is nobody's doing that. Yeah. It works the first piece of all the time. That's what I mean. Like, does he come out and be like, I'm coming back and all the Pittsburgh fans are like It's like, oh cool. Great Great. He's gonna like it's not the response that he thinks it's gonna be. Also, I I said this to you last year. I just think people get amnesia with NFL seasons and we throw ourselves in the draft and free agency, and then it's the summer, and then we get to August, and people just don't remember what happened the year before. And it's like we left last season be like, yeah, Aaron Rodgers, probably not winning more than uh one playoff round at most with Aaron Rodgers as your QB at age forty two. It's like four months off and everyone's like Aaron Rodgers. Could they get him? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we finally made it . The NBA playoffs, no more tanking discussions, at least for a couple days. We get to watch the best players and teams compete every day when the stakes are highest. And when I watch, I like to bet on FanDuel. FanDuel is a brand I trust, easy to build, buy bet. I know I'll get my winnings instantly. I love looking at the odds there. Um so this week, I still feel like Orlando is is being overlooked. They were like plus nine, something like that. I think that's a 50-50 series potentially. Um, I also like Denver and Minnesota. I think Minnesota is a really good road team, but you could also get them in Minnesota. Um, those would be the two I would I would look at. I'm gonna have at least one more set of picks over the weekend. I'm gonna put on Twitter. Check out my picks in the FanDuel Sportsbook app and on my Twitter feed. Don't forget to boost your potential winnings before you place it. FanDuel, play your game. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow . 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Plus every visit comes with a courtesy inspection, including free tire and battery checks. Visit firestoneauto.com to find a location near you, a trusted name since 1926 . So we think so Rams are off the board. We have no idea what they're gonna do. And then the Philly thing is the other weird thing about this draft. Why? We talked about this before we started. With this AJ Brown trade that is apparently happening and yet unlike in the NBA where you say we've agreed to a trade, we can't become official until July 15th in the NBA. Yeah. NFL, it's like, well, they can't trade him until J June first, because then they can split his cap. So it would have to happen after June first. It's gonna happen . Is it happening or is it not happening? Right. And then all the variables that could change this happening, including like a wide receiver ending up for either the Patriots or the Eagles that they get excited about. AJ Brown feels like he has leverage and says, well, I need a contract extension if we're gonna do this. Like I'm just glass half empty on this AJ Brown thing. Patriot fan speaking or just in in the Patriot fan speaking. Okay, yeah. Is this trauma from when the Red Sox didn't Aaron ? Trauma from when we didn't get everybody. Alex Frenchman four months ago. It's coming for 150 million than he wasn't. I just don't when when you get agents involved and and just outside factors, I just don't think anything until it happens. If you're someone a receiver gets hurt or something happens where you they someone needs it and all of a sudden they're in the market and they're calling Philadelphia. Yeah, but AJ Brown's wife is is calling about dance classes in Brookline or something like that, right? I mean he did grow up a Patriot fan. Yeah, yeah, but it's Tennessee Titan. It's almost like a lot of people and Jalen Hurts is there too, and they're like, let's let's have dinner. Let's and then it's two hours later, it's like, hey, we're good. AJ wants to stay. Right. So the problem there is how he's like, well, I just traded for Wicks and brought in this other guy. And we're gonna draft someone and yeah. So they're picking twenty-three. Yeah, the Eagles. But they but they're not gonna pick twenty-three. That's how we Roseman. Howie's got he ha he has to move around. And they need an offensive tackle. And what's gonna happen is we're gonna have we're gonna have um Francis Mawinoa from Miami and then Spencer Fano from from Utah and somewhere in that top 10, 12 range, right? And then it there's this like second wave of and I think it starts at 17. There could be a team in between. The Ravens could go off and could go guard and Venga Yuane from Penn State. But then seventeen's Detroit. And everyone knows that they've put in more work than every other organization on these offensive tackles. So the Jets are at 16, Tampa's at 15. They're already getting phone calls. Yeah. From organiz ations like the Steelers, the Eagles, the Texans, the um, who are the other? Um, the Texans, the 49ers, Bears, the Bears are possibilities. So all those teams you got this murderer's row of teams that need offensive tackles from seventeen to thirty. I mean, Miami, if they don't get a tackle at twelve, they could use one. So thirty-one. I can't say the Patriots don't need a tackle. Sorry, thirty-one. Yeah, absolutely. Thirty one. So seventeen to thirty-one. There's about eight teams that need an offensive tackle, and there's at that point only five remaining. Yeah. So there's gonna be movement there. That's why seven and a half over. Yeah. Do you want to hear the Patriots excuses I've talked myself into? Oh, here we go. Since Super Bowl? Yeah. Why they lost? Yeah. Okay. Drake was hurt. I don't know if that's true or not. But well, we'd think it's true. Yeah. Okay. I did see him throwing the mini footballs at the basketball game a couple weeks ago. I don't know if you saw that. Studied that. Thought he was snapping it again. Yep. Drake was definitely hurt. That's one thing I say. Uh Will Campbell definitely playing on a bum knee. Yeah. Gutted it out. You know, he was a whipping boy during the playoffs. Now he's a hero to me. He was played through pain. Yeah, God only knows what kind of thing wasn't either by the way. Like, I mean, everyone talks about Campbell, but Jared Wilson. Our whole line got destroyed. There's the Seattle didn't even know which side to go after. Did I tell you about the him and Elliot Wolf? Oh no. We we had uh we had Elliot Wolf in. We did the GM series. Yeah. And um and we had Elliot Wolf in. I I had I had met him before but I didn't know him well. And Mensch got in late the night before. We got in Indianapolis, all sorts of weather in New England . You don't deal with it out here anymore, Bill. And and I know. Um and and so we hadn't had a chance to really talk about it. We sit down, I ask a couple of questions. I'm talking about like, you know, Elliot, what's it like? You know, Ron, you're with your dad and like the bowels of of Lambeau Field and you're watching tape as you know, you know, I'm kinda getting him warmed up, right? The fluffers. The fluff, yeah. A lot of fluffing from Question three goes from Mitch. I can kind of feel him like he's like, Will Campbell, I yeah, I thought it was early. Oh, you did tell me this threat. I saw the short arms on tape. We saw it in the playoffs. And I'm like, oh my god. He's going for it. I was like, you guys moving regard? I was like I didn't say it that way, but I was like, everyone wants to move regard. It would be a great guard. He was awesome. He looked back. He goes, he is absolutely our left act. Yes. He was great. He was great. But I felt like I had to ask. I mean, I've been ripping Campbell all like I now he's gonna be on our show and I'm not gonna say anything. The only thing I worry about him is I think he's such an intense, committed, competitive, crazy, all about the football team guy. Like the moment he got drafted, he's like, I am now Drake May's bodyguard for . Yeah. And I really wonder mentally how he handled just getting his ass kicked in the playoffs. You know, like he's probably been successful at that position at every stage of his life dating back to like age four. Yeah. And he yeah, some of the stories too are he's he's in he's as intense as he can get. Yeah, like the team worries about him a little bit, taking the job home. Yes. Taking the job home. So I just I hope I hope he got through that 'cause we've certainly seen some Boston athletes over the years that Yeah. Kind of fucked up. Yeah, that had the well that yeah, that had the bad moment and they were kinda I can't remember an offensive tackle having that kind of moment . Plus now Ruben Bain is the new short arm guy. Yeah. He passed his torch. He's like, here Ruben. Everyone can talk about your arms now. There's an offensive tackle from Utah who I love and he's got shorter arms, Will Campbell, and everyone's like, W'hats the deal, dude? How can you how can you like one over the other? But it's different tape. So the other thing I the other past stance I have now is we just should have lost in Denver and it would have been fine. Like lose there in a blizzard. They score in the with five minutes left. First year had gone. We don't have to go to the Super Bowl and get this huge ass case. No one wins in Denver. It turns out right it turns out right after the game, Drake May was actually hurt the whole time. And we're just like, Great, okay, great season. Let's move . It's like getting that Super Bowl ass kicking just made it so much worse. Yeah, I really wish it hadn't happened. It's not a good thing. Right. And then you think about all the bad signs for this year and the bad juju that comes with this. Yeah. Um, the AJ Brown thing, 2022 and 23, his first two years when he got traded from Tennessee to Philly, 303 targets in those two years, almost 3,000 yards and eighteen TDs . He's only he's gonna be twenty-nine this season. There's good pretty good track records with people moving that age. Yeah and yeah um it seems good. I' sometdhing scares me about it. And I don't know what I didn't like the way he looked last year. And I'd love to know more about why did he look that way. I agree with that. I also think fresh start. I like I think everyone kind of looked that way on the offense for the Eagles last year. I there was a lot going on. So I'm hope I would be if you're like they were just going to work like this sucks. Scheme yeah with all the reports. I I think it was just a drain and and obviously he wears his emotions on his sleeve and it's very public about all everything that he's dealt with and I think it just it it he hit a point. Is there a receiver that doesn't wear their emotions on their sleeves? Very few. Like Fitz was one that's it. Yeah fit ,. Yeah. That should be part of his Hall of Fame case. Yeah. Never wears mushes on his sleeve. First ballot. Unlike any other receiver and it's literally didn't we didn't sleepless the whole time. I I just think about Drake with his development, getting him that. He doesn't have that. He's never had anything close to that. Well Mina said on NFL Live yesterday, which I was watching, um, that the Pats had man-to-man defense, the highest number of any team in the league. Yeah. Cause what are we doing? And you could feel it watching the game because every defense was like, eh. Yeah. We we don't what are we worried about? Let's just let's play up on all of these guys. Yeah. And AJ is like, by all these advanced stats, the best guy against mid-to-made defense, and this would be a game changer. Right. So I get it. The thing was interesting about the ESPN article that came out about the Eagles and Jalen Hurts calling his own plays. And did you hear did you read this? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was changing all the play. If you're an offense coordinator and you're game planning for a guy, if you have a talent like AJ Brown and you're like, we're game planning in this way, and all of a sudden your quarterback is changing everything that's no longer making him the focal point of the offense. Yeah. On certain plays at least. And then you have an opportunity to go to play for Josh Daniel McDaniels, who's gonna like that's what he does. Yes. Well they'll also play with pace, which is the thing I never understood with the Eagles. I know they it seemed like this was an actual strategy for them to limit the minutes in the game because of possessions, because of the math of this. I don't think the Pats think that way at all. Mm-hmm. So they they would be more like, oh we'll put pressure on you and we have AJ out there and you're gonna have to be constantly worried and keep your defense on the field. And our quarterback can run if you turn, you know, so hopefully he can run and throw on like the last two games of the season. Yes. I assume he'll be able to roll out and throw again. I d when we weren't calling the Drake May rolls out and whips a whips a line drive play, I was like, he's fucking hurt. Like you can't tell me he's not hurt at this point. The arc and the velocity were just different. When are the pages taking a tight end? They're gonna need a tight end, right? Talk about tight end enough. It'll be some third round guy. Yeah. Or maybe fourth. They signed a blocking tight end. They were all excited. Yeah. Julian. Yeah Julian somebody. Yeah. Julian Bell. Okay. Last thing . Well, second or last thing. So Zona and Cleveland are the trade down teams. Yep. And you think Saints, Cowboys have twelve and twenty and like getting attention, Jets at sixteen, Rams at thirteen, are there any other trade up te ams ? Um I'm trying to sit here. I don't wash Washington's not going to uh Cleveland we talked about. I think that's the list. Yeah, I think that's probably the list. I was trying to figure out. Yeah, four or five spots. Yeah. I was trying to figure out like somebody is on the board at nine that Jerry gets all excited about because he's ninety-eight years old. Like Jeremiah Love falls to nine. Some credit or some or down. Somebody down the three. And could there be a they have twelve and twenty? Yes. And the Chiefs have nine and forty? Could there be like a you take our twelve and twenty, we'll take back nine forward Yeah, the problem the problem with that theory is I'm told the only reason that the um the Cowboys would move up is for an edge rusher. And if there's an edge rusher worth taking there, I think the Chiefs would take that would be Ruben Bain. Right. So we do this. We talk about you talk about the amnesia in the offseason in the NFL. There's amnesia every year with the Cowboys in the draft. Yeah. You know that they've had 3 4 pick, 37 picks, I want to say, somewhere in the mid to high thirties of picks in the first three rounds dating back to 2014 . And one time they have moved up, that was DeMarcus Lawrence in twenty four.teen Since then that nothing. So it's a lot of chatter about moving up and Jerry's gonna go crazy. Well worked on me, because I'd I always think that's year it actually would make sense as long as it doesn't require pick 20. They've got to pick I, think, 92 overall, the third round. I could see that. Uh, but that's not getting up to three. That's moving up a handful of spots to go get an edge rusher. I just don't know how feasible it is unless you're giving away next year or something, which I think I I I said it's a fireable offense. Now she kinda walked it back by the way. I haven't uh I like fireable offense is one of my favorite phrases and would be a good blog name.. But yes Yeah. It would be a big even a good band. Yeah. Fireable offense today. So a fireable offense is trading a first round pick from next year. That class is going to be and it's not just the quarterback. So but has Manch already started his work on the class of twenty seven yet? Mm. The the quarterbacks we know pretty well, not not not a lot of the other players. I got a mock draft coming out on way too early, mock draft for next week. I love those. Taking the show on Monday. I mean it's oh it's but you know would be you know ing the way too early mock drafts in like February. No, you guys doing it. Oh yeah. Yeah, we should do that. That's that's you've got a couple quarterbacks way up there. Yeah, that's the thing with the draft so volatile. Thanks, Bill. You're guessing with twenty year old kids. My son's eighteen and he's had five ZAGs just in the last seven months. Like I'm just these are teenagers and young dudes. Who knows? Yeah. And we saw some ZAGs this fall. Well, the with the quarterbacks. Or Aller, you're out on him? I I wasn't in on him last year. Yeah, he was never. Yeah. But he's gonna go probably in the third round. There's some teams that like him. Nussmeyer. He loves Nussmeyer. I like Nussmeyer. Yeah, I think there's I think there's a shot. No. You can need Nussmeyer in the third round the right system. Doesn't have a ton of starts. He gets hurt. He's small. I don't I don't I don't see it. I didn't see it either. Good thing. Um Wildcard Crazy I'm looking at the FanDuel odds. Is it Bailey or Reese? There's no chance anyone else goes to . Correct. What if it's a trade? Didn't think there was going to be a trade last year. Everyone else's odds are 125 to 1 and up. Yeah. So it's really everybody's decided these are the two. Yeah. It's definitely. Number three. Reese is the favorite of plus one thirty. Bailey's plus two sixty. Love is plus three thirty. Say that me again. Reese plus one thirty, Bailey plus two sixty, love plus three thirty. Which I thought was Bailey. Bailey's assumed to go the second overall pick, so that makes Reese the favorite. The problem with the Arizona pick is that there's a legitimate chance that a team moves up to three and Arizona takes a below market . But if they move up to three, who are they taking? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Four. What's Sonny Styles number for four? For four? Yeah. Well, love is plus one fifteen the favorite. Bailey's plus four ten. And Styles is plus four ninety . That's interesting. I think Styles could be. I'm not saying he will. What I've been told for for Tennessee is it's if one of those edge rushers does get there, if let's say Arizona takes Jeremiah Love at three, they would take Reese, let's say. Um, if not Sonny Styles. Robert Sala views it differently than most. That middle linebacker is like that's the equivalent of getting an edge for him. Like that's their you know, Fred Warner. That's their so that's something to look out for I can see styles going for too. I also didn't mind Tennessee's running backs last year. But you'd have to really love love, but it makes me nervous spending all that capital on a QB and a running back. Yeah. Right? You're gonna do the fourth and the first pick in back-to-back drafts. The thing about Tennessee's run game, when I started looking at it, Pollard's a pretty good back. I mean, a thousand yards for like five or six seasons aros money down the stretch last year. He's good. Yeah, he was like winning fantasy jobs. But Spears can't stay healthy. So they had the third fewest carries. You have a rookie quarterback and they had the third fewest carries in the league. They gotta get an it doesn't have to be love. They gotta get another back that they can they can get more committed to the ground game. Like they just have to. What I'm interested in is you're sitting there at four . You have to take styles at four, or you you try to bait up a team to get come get Jeremiah Love. And if the Giants putting out the all of a sudden in the last 72 hours, it's tough to manage all this, man, because you're having I'm having conversations with people who are actually making decisions, and we're talking about all 31 other teams and what they could do and what they're hearing, what their scouts are hearing. And they're kind of using you to find out what you're hearing. Totally. Yeah. And I'm using them to find out what they're hearing. And it's a, you know, and so we're we're kind of and we're doing the like, you know, the tap dance and yeah. Um and then you get off the phone and you get on the next phone call. So there's just a lot of but I always get worried in the last seventy two hours to like 150 hours of why is this this message is coming it's resurfacing or this is the first I've heard of this, you know? Right. Is this late developing news or is this a purpose? Because now the board is set. The decisions are basically made. So but all of a sudden the giants, it's like, oh, if love is there, we they'll take them. But wouldn't if love's there, isn't that like come come move up, come move up and get it? What they don't know is maybe that might drive the market up for Tennessee to get a good deal to move out of four. Now Styles is probably gonna go seven, so where would that be too? But um but yeah, I would say Tennessee, I wouldn't mind moving back a couple spots. I'm picking up something. Because I just need people. Yeah. Fifth pick, the odds. Styles is the favorite of plus one eighty-five. Tyson's plus two . I'm I'm told it's not styles. I'll take the field on that one. Love plus three eighty. Caleb Downs plus five fifty . What about Tyson? Tyson was plus two eighty. I think Tyson's in play. I mean I know Tyson's in play, but do do they think they can get him at 10? Same thing with Downs. Um Jeremiah loves the wild card. Taking Tyson at five would be kind of insane, I think . That's interesting. Because of the injuries. Ye Yeahah.. Yeah.ah. Ye Because of the injuries. I want my right receivers to be in the field. Yeah. Yeah. It it becomes this balancing act of all right, now we've fallen in love, and but where should where do we really truly think we should be able we should be able to take him versus where can we take him? Why do the Giants need another stud receiver, by the way? Well Malik neighbors, they don't even know they're worried about when he's coming back to full strength oh like the start of the season there's part of that. You've got a quarterback that needs another weapon. Honestly, it it reeks to me. I Jordan Tyson feels like if we can get him at 10 10, awesome. Okay. But the information for what it's worth is saying that they might they could take a swing there. Can I give you my five types of receivers? Yes. Yes. Speaking of Jordan Tyson, the injury-prone stud. Yep. Really tough one. Yeah. Really have to have a lot of meetings about that. High floor ceiling guy, but something leaves you a little cold, Carnell Tate . Like, yeah, he's gonna be awesome. But it's yeah, well, why aren't I more excited to take him? Yeah. Well, because he was the second best receiver on his college team. So was JSN. I get it, but that was the same thing on JSN. Was this guy gonna be a little bit? JSN ceiling leaves me a little cold. Okay . Physical and traffic wins every ball guy. This guy just goes either way. Yeah. Like he just I you know the this was like the the DeAndre Hopkins was a great example of this. Yep. The Patriots have had guys like this. Um other times the guy just can't get op en. Yeah. Who's the scheme? Kelvin Benjamin for the Panthers, wasn't he a big guy? Yeah. Yeah. So Denzel Boston is the version of that this year. I like him. Um we know. The inside outside guy that everyone calls Twitchy. Yeah. That's K say KC Concepcion. Yeah. Twitchy's a good one. So the pets have Kyle Williams last year is Twitchy. He's like Twitchy. Yeah. He'll beat you up and then uh slot stud, which is my personal favorite. That's lemon. But I like when it's just like, you know what this guy is? He's an awesome fucking slot guy and he's just gonna get open and he can block. That sounds great. Yeah. I'll take that guy. Well then you take in the second round. Because that's the the second round. There you go. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you'd love Jeremy Bernard. You'd love Dejaon Stribling. Uh Omar Cooper Jr. at one point we thought was gonna be second, but probab but it's gonna be first. Um those those are those guys. And then there's the other there's the sixth type, which is the guy, what's his name? Brazil Jr. Yeah. It's one of those like Chris Browser view. Fall in love and or you're getting fired. One of those picks.. Yeah. Yeah Depending on how high you go. Yeah. But he's just seems the highlights for him are awesome. Awesome. Yeah. You're like, whoa. And then the uh the Trey Lance's brother's another one like that, tall, four threes, all of it. Yeah. The one guy I would never take is just uh this dude's super fast and we'll figure out the rest. Yeah. The Pats took that guy twenty times. Yeah, yeah. Well the the Raiders used to take him every year. Then there's the the Bengals, John Ross. Yep. That was a good one. Was it Devin? What was the name of the Daunted Jets? The Jets took one. Uh well in the 80s, this guy used to go all the time. Yeah. They they used to the Raiders and the Jets. Who was the guy the Jets had that one time? They took him in the top four. Oh shoot. Remember him? It was Johnny Lamb Jones. Okay. That's grateful. That's great . It's like he's really fast. That's about it. Yeah. We've had those. Yeah, there's a lot of those. I think we're getting better at not taking those guys too high. Oh, he runs a four-two. Cool. Historically they don't do. Yeah. They just don't do it. The fastest guy at the combine is like is like one it's like 10% chance of you hitting on where they actually drop. Who's your chip on the shoulder receiver this year? Because that guy hits a hundred percent of the time. The guy who's just angry that he's not being mentioned with better guys and produced everywhere he went. It could be Jeremy Bernard.. Could be The Alabama guy. Wasn't even the best receiver by by any everyone's measure at Alabama. Yeah. Um you had Ryan Williams who just disappeared to be. Yeah. Jeremy Bernard. Yeah. Yeah, I don't I I just don't get it. Because I'll hear about it's it's the same conversation. We had these conversations we talk about how speed isn't as important as you think when you get down to that that range. And I'll like Jeremy Bernard, all he does is make plays on tape, man. Like all he does is make plays. Yeah. He's best player on that team last year. I mean, I and people are like, eh, I don't know. I don't know. He's not He's got a chance to be you know, an eighty catch a year guy. If I was the wide receiver draft specialist, I would just want guys that got open on the tape that I was watching. And caught the ball. Yeah. Get open. Did you get open? Did you catch it when they threw it to you? Sounds good. It sounds so easy.. So overcome Those guys about like he's amazing in traffic. It's like cool. No thanks. Antonian Williams is one from Clemson. He just he gets open. Yep. He gets open. Is there a beloved running back for you in the second, third, fourth rounds that you're just too coleman. Okay. Maurice Jones drew. That's what he's built like. He is a short, load of the dances too much. Like yeah, he danced behind a Washington offensive line that wasn't great. And I I get you know he just he his twitch and his build and his contact balance. Like I think he's gonna be a really good pro. Second round? Fourth. Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. And who's your who's your Tyler Shuck this year? I mean Cole Pate. McShay fucking nailed that last year. Oh yeah. You talk you talked about him on my pod. So you're still with him. Yeah. You might be able to get him late third, early fourth. Are you in on this? No, not at all. McShea would sit there all year long and tell you about how important snaps are. We're getting like texts from everyone. This is why I would hire a team is busting his balls all year long about like how many snaps though, McShay, how many snaps? And then we get into the process and Garrett Nussmeyer's the greatest, even though he doesn't have that many snaps. And he pulls this guy out from the FC, the watered down FCS. Yeah. Where all the guys have left for better teams in in Bryce Lance, who's the best athlete on the field is running around like it's backyard football, and this lefty who's playing running back two years ago is also gonna be the next the next great quarterback. He called him better than um Carson Wentz, right? You said he was a better prospect than Carson Wentz. I think I think yeah, I think he has better traits. Sometimes you can just get a lot of confidence after you hit one of these. Yeah. Like this might be your heat check. I'm rolling. Post Shook. I'm rolling. You're just trying to make the magic happen again. Yep, Dart and Shuck last year. Give me Taylor and Green. I love Shuck. Yeah. I don't know how many years he's gonna play because he takes huge hits and doesn't care. And he does Darts the same way. Shuck gets up every time. Oh or at least they did last season, but I liked him. He's a tough, he's a tough I just I yeah. All right, so your plan this week. Yes. We're gonna be doing shows all week. We're gonna be live on Netflix. Yep. During the first round Thursday night. Oh, I wanted to run this by you. Yeah. Oh. It's not a not my idea. Actually came from Rich Eisen, I'm just gonna be honest. The instead of the chime from ESPN, the to do a point of player is picked. Oh, dude, the Netflix noise? Yes. That's a good idea. Right? You like it? I don't know. We'd have to find out from the guys. I'm looking in the control room. They were they were working on it. But I just want to. That's a really good idea. Right? Right? Yeah. I feel like I'm about to watch a true crime documentary. But no it would be the next all the stuff that he asked you were were you worried when he said I want to run something by you on your show? I mean with McShay you'd you gotta hold on to your seat at all times. Right. Like yeah, this is good a thing. That's fair. No, the next one. That actually is pretty doable. So we got Thursday night, Friday night live. Then we'll do a Saturday like wrapping up the whatever. And then we're on Sunday we do a the big thirty two team so it lasts the off season so you can kind of yeah, get a get the deep dive in that. And Monday we're in tape in the way too early mock draft and then we're out of we're out of repair. Don't forget to do the redo of last year's mock draft. I think that's a good idea. You got that? In the lead up, right? Not not now, but in the No, like just when you need evergreen content for when it's kind of dying in the spring. Yeah. I think it's great. Yeah. I love it. All right. Good to see you guys. Thanks for coming in. Thanks. Yeah. And now it's time for today's with the assist segment presented by State Farm. On the court, you can't expect everything to go as planned, but that's when your teammates come in. Because when you know someone's there, you have the confidence to take on whatever comes next. And we've seen some pretty iconic teammate combinations. My favorite was Bird and McHale in the 80s for the Celtics. Three titles: 81, 84, 86. The best forward combo I think we've ever had, complemented each other perfectly. Both guys' bodies broke down by the late 80s, but we had an incredible ride for them, and they really complemented each other perfectly. Life's no different. Unexpected things happen. You want to know someone's there to help. Like how Larry Bird was there to help Kevin McHale. That's where State Farm comes in. They've got easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app and neighborhood State Farm agents when you want to talk to a real person, like a This episode is brought to you by Sarah v Haircare. Scalp is skin. Healthy scalp? Beautiful hair. Discover hair care reinvented with dermatologists from the number one dermatologist recommended skincare brand with gentle hydrating and oil control balancing shampoo and conditioner. 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But you know, there's still some things in there that I think people are going to be interested in seeing. Like what? The performance of Jafar Jackson in the movie is a revelation. He's phenomenal as Michael Jackson. Is there any relation? I know nothing. I've read nothing. I know nothing. Okay. Jermaine's son . So Jermaine's son. Jermaine Jackson's son plays Michael Jackson, which in some way is probably some like weird cosmic justice for Jermaine Jackson. You know, there wasn't always a Did he need justice? What no he did. But I'm saying is that they all they at times Jermaine and Michael didn't like the best relationship or whatever, but you know, they're brothers. So that's what happens in famil y. Um, but yeah, so he plays Michael Jackson, he dances like Michael Jackson, he embodies the spirit of Michael Jackson, and honestly, he nails it. When I say he nails it, he nails it to a degree that like a Hugh Jackman Wolverine type nailing it. He really nails Michael Jackson in the movie. And it's a shame because the movie is an abomination. Abomination. Yeah. Well okay so why? So I have to pr I have to uh you guys know me, I always start in love, Homer Domingo, great, Neil Long, great, Jafar Jackson, great. It's not a serious movie. It's not a serious movie. It's a movie about somebody who we all love to pieces. Love Michael Jackson to pieces, right? He is almost like a mythical character, not even like a human being. And that's the way the movie treats him. The movie treats him like a mythical character. Don't all these music hagi hagiographies treat the the people that way? Like Elton John, Freddie Mercury. Like I'm kinda used to this with my with my biopics for movies. Yeah. To a degree , I you're not wrong, which is why I realized something while I was watching Michael. The biopic is dead. The biopic as to me, the biopic and maybe even the biographical documentary as a storytelling tool, I think is gone. I would say both are I've been saying this for a while. We saw this happen with books. Books used to be, they would do biographies about people that people would participate in. And sometimes it would be pretty hard-hitting. You know, maybe the person would have regretted participating at all. And then eventually that shifted to the autobiography. And almost every time when somebody does the autobiography, it's like, all right, I'm gonna take this with an entire salt shaker of salt, not just one green. I'm going to just assume this is this person's version. It's gonna be very flattering to them. They're gonna remember the things they want to remember, not be that candid about the things maybe they don't want to talk about. And that's just what I'm getting. And in documentaries, for a while, they felt pretty you could you kind of felt like you were getting all the sides of the stories and something shifted with that in the last 10 years. Yeah, I think the streamers had something to do with it in terms of the amount of people that were doing biopics on themselves while they were still around. I think Or the estate that controls it. The estate that controls it. When you look at this movie though, there's like right off the bat, there's a storytelling issue here. The movie has no story. There's no story to the movie. Well, wasn't the famous the story was that they did it a certain way and the estate made them change everything, right? I mean this has been a long time. I want to make sure people understand. I am not complaining about this movie or down on the film because the movie didn't go into more some of the more controversial aspects of Michael Jackson's life. Controversial. Yeah. So got it. The sexual assault allegations against Michael Jackson. Oh we could say that as well. Let's say that great. I'm not I'm not tripping because the movie didn't get into that. It because uh I didn't expect it to. Is that it doesn't really interrogate anything about Michael Jackson really that seriously. Like the the movie the what you were supposed to come away from is that Michael Jackson is like divinely touched, um , extraordinarily good. I thought that anyway. Uh well but what I'm saying is Maybe as a musician or a person? No, no, no, as a person. Oh. Like, as a person, the movie goes through a great length, great lengths to Saint him, to make him look like it every every time there's a kid, Michael Stocks for the kid, every time. And you see people looking at him as he's doing these good works, and they seem to be like arrested by his purity. It's really laid on thick. Now, look, once again, the same magical space that Michael Jackson exists in for a lot of people, he exists in that space for me. And I understand that, that that's people want to kind of live in that. But like, you gotta give me something, right? You gotta give me, you gotta give me a real analysis of where the genius and the drive and all of that stuff came from. And the movie just doesn't take any of that seriously. Yeah. All right. So if the estate's like, here's all the stuff that's off limits, but you could make a movie anyway, I'd be r I'd probably have focused that thriller to when his hair gets caught on fire and he starts getting weird and he becomes so famous that he basically can't do anything. He becomes a recluse um on top of the fact that the hair thing seemed like it was really damaging to him. Like he got burned, he felt like he was disfigured, led to a lot of the stuff that his his skin changing, all all of all the plastic surgery, that seemed to be the tipping point moment combined with the victory tour when him and his brothers went out and they bankrupted the Sullivan family basically. But that just that whole era, I just would have centered it there versus I it stopping in 1989 is insane. Bill. I think you know why. I mean if you if you why not stop in like 1987? Why'd they pick 89? Well if you go to 1997, you can't not talk about it. But I'm saying why not just stop in 87, just stop with the bigger for bad. Like they they get to they get to him uh on a on a world tour. It's like him doing a solo world tour, which was a big deal for him. He wanted to do a solo world tour, so they stopped with him doing the bad world tour. Here's the frustrating thing. Everything that you just talked about, that's all in the movie. All of it's in the movie. His plastic surgery stuff is in the movie. Vitiligo stuff is in the movie. Um the burning of the hair is probably the thing that they that the movie gets the most right. Right. Interesting. Because the of the reason why he's doing that commercial, obviously at the behest of his father. Um he's wants to go back out on tour with his brothers, like what it cost him, and how him being burned actually starts his uh relationship with uh with painkillers and stuff like that, which we all know would eventually take his life. So that sounds interesting to me. But it doesn't it just it's just on the screen. Yeah. Okay. I have to take this medicine for it. Like Michael in one point says he doesn't like his nose. The next thing he comes home and and he he's had a nose job. Yeah. Right? There was a movie called The Jackson Family in American Dream, a mini-series from the early 90s, right? I saw it. Okay. That movie treats Michael Jackson as a real fragile wandering mind of genius in a real serious way. There's a scene of him looking in the mirror, talking about the fact that his face is breaking out , talking to his mother about his nose, and you get the feeling of how displaced he felt in his body at some time, right ? And it's a serious scene, it's like a real scene. And or when Motown 25 is about to happen and Michael goes, I'll do it with my brothers, I'll perform with my brothers, but I want a solo spot. It's a powerful moment of him like stepping away. This movie just can't get to any of that stuff. It's on the screen, but not really interrogated in any ro in any way. But I do know what is interrogated . A weird scene with Miles Teller as the lawyer. Right. Where Michael Jackson is the one. The vice best teller in this movie. But bro, as the fucking look, I'm sitting next to Jomi, I'm like, we're watching the scene, and there's this weird scene where all of these guys are sitting around, and uh, he fucking talks to Miles Teller's character, and he's like, everybody get out the room.. You stay You're my guy. And then they're in the movie. And I'm like, yo, whoever that guy is. Right. He he greenlit this movie. So he has something to do with this movie. Because this scene doesn't make any fucking sense to be in a movie about Michael Jackson. Now this guy pops in and you got an A-list star playing him. It didn't make any sense whatsoever. And then at the end of the movie, I'm looking and it says, Yeah, look, producer, John Branco, or whatever his name is, whatever. So like I I don't mean to trash it because it there are I think that people are gonna enjoy it because you're gonna take a trip down memory memory lane. But it's just it was just like glossy bullshit. Right. Well and and Antoine Foucault is the director. Yeah. So when he's he probably signed up for something that he felt like was going to be a completely different movie and now has to pretend this was the movie he made, which which is clearly not the case. Aaron Ross Powell I mean the movie isn't poorly made. I mean it's got all it's got like tough. It's well done gloss. Well done gloss, but like I I don't know. People are gonna hear this and they're gonna be like, how could Van be this upset about it? Because Van is the one that year after year goes into the theater to watch some of the most ham-handed superhero shit that's ever existed, right? It occurred to me. Yeah , I held out a difference or I made a distinction here. This is the MCU of a bio pic. This is the we know that we have you, so we don't have to do anything else, which is the criticism about the MCU that exists now, about superhero movies that exist. You signed up for this, so it's not our fault. Hey, you're in here to watch action figures fly around. Yeah. And that's all we gotta give you. Earlier on, I think the exciting thing about the like those movies was that they did not do that. They played around with genre. They they took chances. They did other stuff, but it got to the point to where they knew they had us, and so we're gonna watch whatever it was, and now there's a lot of people that are disillusioned with them. When I go to see a movie about this type of person at that this type of impact, you wanna come away feeling like you know what made that guy tick. So what would be the perfect IP that you would want to sign up for for Michael Jackson? Because for me, it would be like a 10-hour documentary that was like warts and all, like, let's go, let's dive into this dude. They're two different movies. One movie would be this same movie, but just about the making of thriller. Hmm. So you confine it to like 82 to 85, that's it. Just about the making of thriller. By the way, that's what they should have done. Right. Like when I say just that takes them off the hook with everything that happens in the 90s. You can flash back to stuff that happens. We really don't necessarily need the whole Jackson 5 journey. It is one of the most famous uh journeys that's ever existed in Superstard But the making of thriller is very special. It's a special time in music, it's a special time in culture, and it's a special time where this this person like reaches their zenith, like an athlete. Like, was what was the season that Michael Jordan just became the guy that everybody was waiting for Michael Jordan to become? Like, that doesn't happen in culture as much as we think that . They tried to do that with the Springsteen movie and it was weird. They picked Nebraska, which I'm a Springsteen guy. Nebraska was a really interesting choice, but it was basically they told the whole story to set up what happens with Born in the USA, which then don't go into. So it's like, we assume you already know what happened with Born in the USA. This part's more interesting. It's like, eh, you know what would have been really interesting, born in the USA . Well, with that, and and if you go granular, if you get deep into like what Michael had to sacrifice, uh, what he was going through, the pressure he was under. You see how child star that piece of art he's in the 70s cocaine era, he's at Studio 54. All of that stuff. Everyone's trying to get in with him. And just after, and what it means to be like the biggest star in the world. That's one. Number two, an interesting story that no one talks about is the just ridiculously amazing story of how Michael Jackson came to control the Beatles catalog. Right. Like, not just hi, I'm cool with Paul McCartney, Paul has the idea, Michael is shrewd enough to go and and work him on the idea, just everything that had to happen for him to get that, because that ends with a deal for him to like have to perform in Australia, right? And him performing in Australia, one of the accusers ended up. So there's a whole bunch of things that happen. I mean, you'll necessarily have to get into that. There's a whole bunch of things that happen with that. And it's one of the more that is a story about the genius, the business genius and the cultural genius of Michael Jackson. I would also throw in the Lisa Marie Presley Wedding as the third movie you want to see. I just don't know what happened with that. That was one of those nobody knew what was going on the entire time . We still don't know what happened. We don't. And I remember they came out on MTV and it's like no one thought this would last. And my dad was like, it hadn't lasted. What lasted? Like what are you like, what are you talking about? It had it hadn't lasted yet. I think with some of these things, the biggest things we've ever had, which is basically like Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson, these things come around content wise every few years. Like the be it happened with the Beatles a couple of years ago when that that thing, the behind-the-scenes Peter Jackson documentary that was awesome. And it was like, oh, the Beatles are having a moment again, and then it goes. And then six years later, something else will happen. I think that's happening with Michael Jackson now. I know everybody doesn't like the movie, but I think it's gonna be the catalyst to a re-examination of all the stuff he did. Because what what really happens is the new generations who don't, you know, like my son, when my son was like five, he didn't know backstory of Michael Jackson. He just knew he liked the songs. Yeah. And the kids get into it. And it's a generational thing that never stops. And I think this goes to a bigger point, which we were talking about with when Kanye was here at SoFi a couple weeks ago about people being able to separate the art from other stuff that may have happened. And how you can compart if you like the music, you like the music and you can just put it there and you can kind of push the other stuff this way. And that whole dialogue about whether that's something we sh should we be that way? What the heart want what the heart wants. We' donll have any choice . I mean, just if we're being honest, when I say we don't have any choice, what I mean is is like I can choose if I want to not to uh listen to Michael Jackson music or to whatever, what I can't do with him specifically, not all the artists that have been involved in fuck shit are like this. But with Michael Jackson, it's so tied to the most formative years of my brain. Right. That if I see him or I hear the music, my body reflexively does something. Right. You hear Billy Jean and his legs. There's nothing you can do. Now you can make this decision to talk about things responsibly and make sure you hold space for victims and make sure you have these conversations with the gravitas in the weight that they deserve, right? You can do all of that. Nobody wants to do that when they're on Spotify on a walk at two in the afternoon or working out. And they're just like fuck it. I'm gonna put my Michael Mix. Yeah, yeah, it's it's true. And so the reality of all of this, and by the way, I just want to say this real quick. And this is, you know, people can feel how the way the way I want about this. I worked at TMZ for a very long time. Right. Yeah. Worked at TMZ for a long time. So the people that I know that have looked into uh Michael Jackson's various cases, the people that I know have looked into them in a really granular way, like in a really detailed way . Looking at his situation is interesting because I have to be real, real observation . The people that I know, the deeper you get into all of the stuff that happened with him, the more questions you actually have about whether or not he ever was actually guilty of something. I the news director at TMZ back in the day is like wasn't, I'm not talking about he's not from South Bad Rouge like me. He was a white boy from Orange County. Swore up and down. He's like, man, I have all of these documents. He didn't do anything. Yeah. All of this stuff. And so there is, there is this thing with him in all of his cases. He beat it in court . There's this thing with him to where the more you get into it, of people that I know that really have deep knowledge of everything that happened, they look at it and they go, they don't think that he did anything. Now, maybe that's me coping. That could be me coping. But the reality of the situation is that is true from people that I know that have really looked at the same that's how I feel about Mike Ferable Like man, the guy just wanted some rest. The other six people they were there. It's a great resort. Yeah, it's a great resort. Like a relaxation weekend. But to your point though, the movie, the first thing I did when I got home was put on Michael Jackson shit on YouTube. The first thing I did. But even that , if you do a biopick about Michael Jackson and Jafar Jackson once again in the performance and in in the dancing, it's great. But if you do a biopic about Michael Jackson, the best parts can't be like making thriller or performing on stage, because if I want that, I could just go to YouTube and watch that. So there has to be other parts of the movie that aren't oriented around the music and around someone doing a Michael Jackson essentially an impression on that movie, this movie just doesn't have to be. Well, apparently there's an incredible Elvis documentary right now that somebody spent a lot of time on, Boz Lerman, I think. Okay. Um and it was like behind the scenes Vegas, they found all this footage and it's amazing. And if that had come out in like 1989, it felt like it would have been the biggest movie in the world. Now it's 2026. Elvis has been dead for 49 years. I don't know if he has the same hold on people under 50. I think like people in their 70s and 80s might care. And I wonder when Michael Jackson's gonna hit that point. I would argue with like in the Spotify era where people are just downloading music, he might not hit that point for like 40 more years. Yeah. Where people are just like, there might be some five-year-old right now in a car on the way home from school, they're listening to thriller and they don't know any better. They don't they don't know anything other than the songs they're listening to. You know, and this might be the old man talking, but and Elvis is a you know ridiculously important American pop culture figure it just feels different with Michael Jackson I don't I don't know I think I think that's generational It probably is. Everything is everything culturally expires. Everything culturally expires. But it's the same thing for like Mickey Man el, Babe Ruth, Frank Sinatra. There are these people that had these runs, but then as the years pass, there's no body there to kinda keep the torch going with the flames. You know what I mean? Ain't none of them people got a thriller though. That's true. Elvis was way up there though. Elvis is I mean, Elvis was the biggest star we had in the world. I know, but for years. But that's how we thought. Yeah. Then the biggest star came into the room. It's just different. You don't have to sell me. I don't know. Michael's the biggest, he he's the most talented, biggest star I've ever seen in my life. Right. And and I like him doing the Motown 25 was like probably the greatest non-sports TV moment I've ever had. And so I remember watching that just over and over and all of the videos. Michael has so many different eras. Like you can't really put it all in one biopic because it's like his life was like it had like three or four sequels right until he till he passed on. But and a lot of analysis too like just long conversations with friends in high school about what does mama say, mama sa mama po sa mean? Mama pusa, yeah, like whatever that, whatever that what do they mean? To to me , to me, to me , that genius, like , not just deserves, but it requires special real examination. Examination. But Ezra did that with Prince, and we're never gonna see that either. Right. But look, once again, I think that we're we're out of the era of biopics. If we think what are the best biopics? Ray was a great biopic, right? I actually I kind of like the Queen one. I watched it again. Okay. And I and why is it good? Because in the last 25 minutes, it just is the live aid show, which I could watch on YouTube, but it was really fun to watch as the movie. Usually it's the performances that make it . Outside of music biopics, you want to relive the music and you wanna see how people embody the character. But like when I think about movies like Malcolm X, like X with Spike Lee, obviously different. Yeah. But that's a guy that's a cultural deity deity to me. The movie does not deify him at all. Like the Johnny Cash movie does DFIM. That one I think is one of the best ones. Colminer's daughter is really good. But usually they they work the best when it's people who have genius, but also have a flaw or two flaws. Have a flaw or have a relationship that doesn't work. Or it are like marry the wrong person, fall in love the wrong way, or like whatever. Something that humanized. Tina Turner one was good too. Right. Yeah. That is probably the That might be the best one. That's the best music biopic that I can remember. It's phenomenal. But it had a villain. Had a villain. This one has a villain. Joe Jackson is the the villain. He seems Joe Jackson. But not a great guy. But even in this movie, it's made by his family, and you can tell, you can feel the conflict in this movie. Yeah. The estate makes the movie. They're telling this story. You can feel them holding back. Well, it was heavily reported. They had to change just about everything about the movie. Right. As they're making it. But even in this version, like, okay. You think Miles Tower is like, hey Miles, hurt you have a new movie out. Yeah, well , yeah, I I guess. Filmed it a long time ago. I'm just saying, man , if you would like when you do it, commit . Like, uh , you know, blood on the dance floor. Show it show how hard it was. Show the road he had to climb. We agree, but this will be the number one when it ends up on Amazon or wherever. This will be the number one rental for like five straight weeks. I'm probably gonna see it again. Yeah. I'm probably gonna see it again just because like I can't wait till the seventh time you see it when you talk yourself into it. I I'm probably gonna see it again. Do you know why? You really know why? Higher learning? No. I missed Michael Jackson. I missed him. Like I you guys, I'm just a regular person. So you guys can get mad, whatever. I missed Michael Jordan. You missed the genius. I missed him. Like I I like I I had missed him. This was the secret of the last dance with Michael Jordan. So it's like, you know what? I c I really miss this guy. Yep. Like That's why the biggest documentary right now that's sitting there, if it was done correctly, is the Kobe Doc, but it'll never happen because I think I think his wife just will never let it happen the way it could happen. But I think that would have the same impact. We're so many people love Kobe that if they did that correctly, it would be the same thing. You're like, you know, I'm gonna watch that a fifth time. I really miss this guy. Yeah. And more to the point with Michael Jackson , I missed the version of Michael Jackson that existed before I had to consider any of the others. 80s Michael Jackson. I missed that guy. I miss just being able to have. I miss the feeling of unbridled joy that exists with me being dumb and not knowing. And like just not, I'm I that that's super . Hulk Hogan, another one. Hulk Hogan. Like I used to . I used to I used to rip the shirt being a Hulk. You were a Hulk maniac. I was a Hulk everyone was a Hulk maniac. Everyone wouldn't . Nah. He would not have liked you. He would not have liked me at all. He would not have liked me. He would have said it. Or he would have liked me until I tried to take his daughter out. And then he would have flipped. And then he would have flipped out. Anyway. I see what you mean about my wife says this all the time. She'll be watching some movie or TV show that she's seen 1700 times and she always like, I miss my friends. Yeah. Devil is Prada. I miss my friends. I'm gonna hang out with them again. And the Michael Jackson experience, same thing. I'm definitely gonna see it. I won't see it in the theater, but I'm gonna when it's out on rental, I'm gonna rent it. No, you should go see it in the theater. You think? Yeah, go see it in the theater. I like it everyone that had any interest in the movie because the reviews have been brutal. I have to keep it real. The reviews have been hilarious. They've been people are furious. Yeah. They really hated it. But at the same time, the people that feel super connected to Michael Jackson are going right into defense mode. I'm sure some of those people will be mad at me. I'm encouraging people to go see the movie in the theater because I think I saw it in IMAX. I think it plays best in the theater. But yeah, not as not not to me a serious attempt at trying to tell a real story about somebody as consequential and as important as I think. So what's your Roger Ebert? Four stars, how many do you go? One and a half? One and a half? Okay. One and a half. All right, Van Lathan. Good to see you. Peace. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to McShay and Mensch. Thanks to Van. Thanks to Gajau and Eduardo as well. I'm gonna be back on this podcast on Thursday night after the NBA playoff games, we're going to be recording. Uh, I think Rob Mahoney is gonna join me. 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