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It's not just highlights, it's everything around the game, including the sports community Fine breakdowns of classic basketball plays, deep dives on baseball stats, even videos on how athletes train and recover peopleeople teaching strategy, sports, history, even ways to improve your jump shot. It's kind of like the biggest locker room ever and everyone' sharing what they know All right, the Bill Simmonss podcast. We are live on Netflix. Special guest, my friend Doc Rivers is here after just an incredible. Wow Dramatic. wasasn't it the best play game? The stats weren't awesome U but a lot of twists and turns the Nick pull it out And I think we thought the same thing with about three, four minutes left. One team looked like kind of knew what they were doing. and the other team looked like playoff experience, youth stuff was starting to creep in. I didn't like the shots I got. I didn't I just didn't like anything and the Nicks just went into Nicks boon Yeah, I don't know though Bill Vill' use. U as far as at the end of the game. I would say this at the end of the game, if you told anyone, at least me before the game it's going to come down to a single possession game. You're going to favor the Kicks because the Ns know exactly what they're doing. They're giving the ball to Bronsson And they're going to play off Brunson Wob. San Antonio in any game down the stretch. you're not sure yet because that's where they are young. They haven't The two man game with Fox and Wimby. is usually the play They actually ran it. Fox got a wide open shot that would have tied the game if you remember. and he missed that shot and then he followed up with a foul on I think Bridges where Bridges had nothing that So the back to back plays. There are three plays that changeed the game to me. the offensive rebound. U The Bronon got and then got to three The miss shot by Fox where he would have tied the game up thenen Fox follow that up where he b bridges out with a flow U That's a seven point swing in a game and San Antonio couldn't recover. And then the turnover B Wimby was the final there And then Brunson with the Moonba. Yeah. so it Sant Tona takes the lead ninety five, ninety four in the two Wimby free throws and then that whole sequence happens. Yeah Fox Fox made that shot in game seven against OKC In this game, I think him and Weemby combined were seeven for twenty seven. Yeah, Well, Fx is one of the most clutch players in the NB over the last three years down the stretch of the game. He really hasn't been other than Game seven, Oklahoma Uh, that's their go to play and You know, we know what the Kicks are going to do and we pretty much know what San Antonio is going to do. They're going to go to the two man game. You remember they lost that game to Oklahoma where Fox went't there They didn't have anything down a stretch to go to. Well they went to it Fuckx got his shot like in the paint. Perfect look for him misses it U and then, you know, the Kicks is going to play Brunson Ball from there on. So I just think it came down to little things. couple things I was surprised by Um, And I was wrong by I was really surprised by Windby Garden towns that started the game. I was shocked by that. I was positive U that Wndy would be on heart Oh amp Champagi or anyone else would be on towns. And the reason is that allows Windby to stay in the paint more. If you look at the beginning of the third quarter, the Surs did that And I actually turned to my son' sppinzer, and I said, hu Maybe the spurers are playing Cat and Miles. Maybe that's what they wanted to do all along, but instead, they waited until the second half And it had some impact. they got out to a quick lead the beginning of the third They really never went back to that coverage. you know, and Hart didn't play is normal big minutes. I think you play twenty six, twenty seven minutes So Mike Brown I gott to tell you cooaches is butt off tonight. He really did that I never also thought Wen would be guarded by Cor Anthony Townes. I suucccessfully. Yeah, you thought it would be a foul machine Well, I thought it'd be Files and I thought it'd be An anobe. An anobe, I think this year has a best best plus minus in the NBA versus Winy defensively So I thought they would go to that and they never even went to it. They didn't So when you look at the Kicks, they still have that in their backag to go to s not Cve it toounds game of his life, he was He was amazing. You know You know what my son supposed to turn to me and said, wow Minnesota trader Carl the N toowns And you know, last year, no one was actually saying that you know, because Carl was up and down, but I tell you, man U secondecond half of this season. He's been absolutely unbelievable and again Mike Brown has put him in a right spot to be successful and you gott to give Mike a lot of credit Yeah, had three heroes Brunson, obviously. I think he had nineteen in the second half had fifteen rebounds and six assists in twenty six minutes And then I thought towns took it to Wimby. I thought it was a stalemate at worst between them. notot just statistically, but didn't seem afraid of them buy them a bunch of times. Now is the big thing. I had the numbers wrong on Weby and Fox. They were nine for thirty four. comombined and San Antonio only had two threes in the second half and they didn't shoot well. we'll go into some of the stuff they can do Yeah. we can't lose sight of the biggest moment of this game that happened in the second quarter when somebody, I forget who it was crashed into Brunson's knee And I look down. Yeah, it looked bad. you know, I didn't think it was bad honestly. When I saw it. I thought it hurt. and you know what I mean by that? I thought I was a scare because his knee didn't go all the way in. So I honestly I was sitting there. I said, he's okay. He just scared the hell out of him because then he didn't seem okay. Every Nick fan in my life is like Are you serious? We just want a little bit in a row We're in the finals. This is our guy. He's going to get hurt in the first half of a game. He goes into the tunnel And it's just pure panic And then in an hour and a half it flips and he's the hero of the game Ekl get stepped on. I mean this r he is just so tough. the movie made late where he took the hit, got bumped G San Antonio credit. They did it all the entire Oklahoma series where they stay down. they take the bump And then you have to try to play through that and Brunson makes that shot U it' it just was a perfect moment for Brunz Well explain this to me with Brunson SGA looks so uncomfortable against the Spurs team and all the guards And Brunson looked like within a half he had solved it in the second half and he was getting I actually thought he could add more points. He missed a couple shots that he usually made. Is it because that the Kicks had better three point shooting or better space? likeike what is it? What was the difference of them in? Well, you just hit on one thing. they have way better spacing. All right. So and they do a great job with their cuts and their spacing That's number one. Num two. there was one time where he got in the paint and you can see Wendy wanted to help Carls in his house kind kind of floats out to the corner to the three. Well, in the Oklahoma series Um Wimby got to stay in the pain He really never left the paint. It was almost like they decided If Cuso and those guys can make enough toreies will lose the game. We don't think they can and they were right at the end of the day. So barely because Caruso and Wallace made like half the corner of Threes. ultimately it didn't matter because Chet didn't make anything. Yeah. and Caruso was amazing in that series. And so, you know, New York, first of all, the one thing you got to give heart, he knows before the game That's who they are going to put him on or they're going to try to help off of him He is a great cutter. He's always in a dunker spot and that's why you remind me of Rondo and rebounding You know, ye. Yeah. when we put Rony in the Dunker spot a ton. why? Because when he didn't have the ball If you didn't guard him, he rebounded the ball And it allowed R Romdo to have a free run at the glass. If you watch hardart, there's no one blocking them out. He's just going to rebound He has a free lane right to go rebound because no one's guarding him and he takes advantage of them. He's one of the great rebounders in our league at his size Well, and then on the flip side Vasll Champinne Harper Castle. I think they had like thirty rebounds combined with six minutes left in the game. They were crashed in the boards. San Antonio had fourteen offensive rebounds. And really it came down they just couldn't make shots And if I'm I actually they had two timeouts with like three minutes left. Yeah. and we both had the same thought of like, they don't look right. feels like this is maybe like reset this. Weby look tired. I don't know if he shot his wide in the first half or would happen, but U I just I don't know what the answer is. Let's actually the first half. Weindy looks spat up tonight looks like they're speed them up tonight. I think he had six or seven turnovers, Bill. A lot of them were putting the ball on the floor I would know, you know, we have all kinds of stats, analytical stats with a team and one of the things I would look at first is how many dribbles did he have? I know that sounds crazy But it felt like he dribbled the ball way more than usrael. The other thing is time of possession How often did he hold the ball and have the ball in his hands? It looked like way more than usual And so I think that play right into the Nick fans. I think they would take that. Harper was phenomenal to me. He played Great pl normal is funny. U he just goes out in plays and nothing kind of affects him The two other guards, the three guards from San Antonio didn't have their best game. That's going to happen That could be first game jters, that could be all kinds of things. They'll play better but The Kicks will play better too I thought I had an obie down the stretch, you started playing well, but I thought he was struggling most of the game. He know save the bench, the game or the Ns are the bench U That little sucker Alvarado in the first half. Yeah. he had really big moves for that. great. And Sam You know, I'm just, I mean, I'm I coach Sam and I'm just so proud of him. and by the way he plays it out, like you couldn't keep sham on the floor fiveive years ago. Three years ago defensively he couldn't guard anybody and that kid has worked his tail off and he he could eats defensively. And the other thing now is He's always been a great shooter, but if he missed a couple, he would never keep shooting and now he does. That's maturity, that's growing up, That's going through all the stuff and he's doing that. I thought their bitch gave them a huge lift tonight. He He was out there with like four minutes left You in the bridges spot. and then they brought bridges back in, but I was surprised how late he was in the game Yeah. so Bridges will play better. He didn't have a great game offensly, but I thought Bridges had a phenomenal game defensively. You know, it's so funny brridges get so much criticism But he does so many things and it you know, everyone just equates scoring to if you play well. And we all know there's so many other things you can do and Bridges does those things every night And If I'm Wemby, what am I learning from that game? O patience. You know, to me, E simple U thought it went too quick at times Uh I think they're going to put them on a post a little bit more, but not much more The two men game with him and Fox There's something there. They just didn't get anything out of it Uh the forty five set Which I think we started it when I was with the Clippers with Chris Paul, Do you remember? that's where the forty five set actually came from U they are the best that I've ever seen in it And explain what the forty five set is. The forty five set is the four and the five and us it they use a guar way up top that double flat screen where a guar goes downhill Windby Rose, shooter in the backside, shooter in the corner They run it as well as anybody I've ever seen. And They ran it three or four times early in the game and it was successful and they got away from it So you're going to see that way more the next in game in game two on Friday I wonder what they do about Harper because I thought I actually thought he was their best player in that game It took about a little over four minutes left when it was close And then they lost the lead and I didn't really like you know, any of the offense they had except for that fox nine footer that he missed, but I wonder if Harper I wonder if he has reached a point where you can't take him off Well He just has to finish the games for you because he can create his own shot can but the other guards can as well. I have to say that. I think There's going to be gain for it going to come down between him and Champinnei You know, the other guards because of their defense, they're rebounding their athleticism. you keep them on the floor, but that makes them really small. That's one of the things I kept saying Bill. I told you this The Nixo gave. Yeah. N they're big. they're big at every spot I guess Bronson is considered small, but we call them big b Bronson Heart plays like a five U Aninoia is huge The Bridges is long. Towns is long they' a big basketball team. and so even though the firsturs guuards did way better than I thought they would on the offensive glass I think size matters. It does when victors around, but it also does because of all the knick players with sides and I thought it mtered tonight I wonder, what do you think the next strategy was going into that game? because it felt like they want to turn into a track meet early and kind of discombabulate the spurs and knock them out of whatever rhyth they were in the last game And then I thought down the stretch, you could see it wore down the spurs and it felt like the Kicks were like gaining strength almost. And do you think that's a strategy or is just I do. I think it's funny. I heard people said halftime slow it down. I said, Don't slow this game down. This is great for the Kicks. The one thing they were doing, they were trying to get up the floor before W we could get there They' they're trying to that same thing Oklahoma try except for Oklahoma kept losing their ball handlers. All they had was Say left. You know U but the Kicks they they pass the ball for. they attack early, they spread the floor and it also didn't allow Wimy to get into his spot. Wy loves being in the dunker spot defensively But when they go in transition early and early attack You saw Windy out by the three point line a lot tonight San Antonio cannot like that. So that absolutely was part of their game plan I had a bunch of Nicks fans in my life who were texting me during the game being like, I liked one being until tonight. Now I hate his guts I'm I'm tired of this. He's flopping around like he gets every call. It's it's so funny how you root against a guy for an hour and you're like, I'm out. I hate this guy Yeah. well everyone flops around that. You know, it's so funny. That's I think it was Castle. They asked him and they were trying to get him to say something about Say. he looked at the guy says, everyone flops. That'. You know, it's funny and it's not taught. It's players work on it But it's not taught really. players just work on it U I hell, I thought Bronson loopped and tough cur the towns floped. every bit as much as Windby did. but that's just part of the game I like it. We're getting a lot of animosity. I love that. Yeah. Towns thing. You said that at the top about how Minnesota traded him. With that said, I never ever, in a million years thought that he had this in him And he's been doing it now for a month, right? The way he played today there there's almost like like a cerebralness about What he's doing offensively. He's kind of staying away from the Dumbfouls for the most part Like some of the stuff's like the quick attacks on Weby Is exactly what he had to do like before Wimby gets set. He was just trying to beat him and he was physically playing I just loved how he played. He's play's playing smart. He's not losing his composure. Those are things that he always would do in the past ' staying out of foul trouble h he may be their best passer at times And the biggest thing he's doing that no one talks about is is rebounding He is a great rebounder, a great rebound, great offensive rebounder So he's done a lot of things that we didn't know he can ever do And the other thing is and and I've said I said I've said this since we wanted two thousand eight U Bill When you hear about teams and they all say it You improve each rounde. And teams that don't go deep never understand that. players who have never gone deep They never understand it's not necessarily individual improvement is team improvement and the Nicks in the first round may have been, you could say maybe getable You know in the second round You know, they got it going at that A that Atlanta meeting and whatever they had. They have come together Like when you watch them play, h There was a time out in this game where you heard Kr Anthony Towns talking I saw that. That was a Libo. That six weeks ago. He wouldn't have said it and no one would have listened You know But that's part of the growth that Teams go through each round, you get better, you get closer. you trust more. you let go of all that the individual crap, you know, all the numbers chasing and You just start playing Yeah and you played the right way. Alarado, think about it. I always I love Alarado in this example. He comes from New Orleans, where he played a ton of minutes And now you probably two minutes, five minutes, six minutes ten minutes, twenty minutes. He doesn't care He just wants to help the team win and you can see that throughout the Nick team. you can see that throughout the sppurs team These are two teams that have grown each round. And they have they both have come to this Cmunity thing And it's really helped the Nicks because we never thought the Nicks could get there. But they're there. They are absolutely there I forgot to say that this segment is brought to you by New Eerra, which makes a bunch of great caps, all kinds of things. So that what you just mentioned about The selflessness. I remember we did a podcast During the twenty four finals, we were talking about the Celtics when they were I think they had won game three against Alas And you were excited about it because you were like I see it. They get it Its like they understand what this last level is about. It's not about the stats anymore. It's about looking out for each other, just just trying to win whatever it takes. you don't care about your minutes. You don't look at the stat sheet It feels like the Nicks have gotten there. I thought I thought San Antonio was going to win this series and maybe they just sucked tonight, mayaybe they will The fact that the Kicks were able to carry that Three rounds inferior competition to now this stage tonight and it's the same thing. It gives you hope if you're a Nicks fan, I would say. Well, I this is I've been asked because I'm always assed. Who's going to win the series And today I was golfing. I bet I was asked fifty times bill, and my same answer is, I don't know Yeah. this one Usually you kind of have a This one is too close to call U D You know, if you're a Nick fan, you feel great obviously. the big thing is if they do lose another game. but they come back with the next day you know, u and So know now game two is the biggest game of the finals for San Antonio. They can't go down zero two h they just can't. I guess they can. We've seen teams come back, but U you it's just so interesting. Yeah, this They're not the garlate. It's the garbleate That's the key for San Antonio. They did not have great guard playay and their guards have been dominant in the playoffs. and they've been dominant. They didn't they usually have good guard playay by one or two And then maybe two don't all their guards didn't play well other than Harper Harper was the only guard They played great in that I thought one of the things they weren't really one hundred percent doing tonight was just attacking the Rim all the time, which is what they learned to do against OKC s gotta go. donon't even think twice, just go go, go go attack. Bigger guys. I bet if you sit back and count the drives that they were bumped off on Like it was amazing. Even Brushon had one. I think Fox had him be, but he bumped them off path U and Nobbe does it as better as as b as good as anyone. Brid just does't. Heart is phenomenal at it Yo A lot of the hits from San Antonio and kind of veered them outside to the paint I thought that was really affected by the N. I thought the Europe Penetration defense was phenomenal. I thought they guarded the ball and took hits, held their ground, didn't back up, didn't flop. defensiveull. they held their ground tonight and their size matter again When you played them this season, did you see this in them No U I did say earlier they're the best team in the east when you go individually just right It most. Yeah, you just counted the numbers. you thought best team in the east. U, and going into the playoffs, I did pick them to win the East before the playoff started But I just thought they would out talalent people. They're out teaming people now U And when you put that talent together, And now the way they're playing They're a really good basketball team and they're hard to beat Yeah because I remember when this happened with the Oo eight Celtics. now granted they won way more regular season games, but then their first two rounds were choppy to seven gamame series. and then it really wasn't until near the end of the Detroit series. And then you could see something shifted Yeah. Do remember that? likeike what game was that when it just like Just something was different. I thoughtought it was a game In Detroit after we lost, you remember we lost our first home game was against the pistons. Yeah. And I think it was game two and we went right back in Detroit in one Uh, I thought from that point on, we were we had, you know, been made, you know, I love using that term like and, you know, Godfather, we were made finally like this team is I thought that team played together all the time, but you remember going into playoffs, I made that comment, I'm really worried. we have not been tested. We hadn't lost two games in a row all year. Yeah. We had We hadn't gone through anything and it just felt too easy And that really concerned me. And so Those two games seven Atlanta game seven wasn't much of a game, but that Cleveland game seven Yeah that kind of made us and then the turnaround and then Detroit, deffending champps come in and they pop us right away and we have to respond I thought those are things and the Nicks have been going through stuff all year. so they're different going through all stuff all year. Turmoil, chemistry problems, road problems, guys are unhappy. They get to the first round. a lot of that is still going on. Atlanta takes it to them They have their meeting and it all goes away Since then They've been playing right throughout And it's been amazing to watch. So is that the first recorded meeting in NBA history that actually worked? It actually worked. Yeah. I don't think it was Ho meeting like You know, it just from what I hear the meeting just kind of happened It wasn't one of those things like we're going to have a player meeting, which every coach is like, oh God Yeah O coach, we want to have a team meeting where every coach says Oh God, Yeah. I got to tell you th, I've been a player in these meetings And I've been a coach in these meetings. And a lot of them go haywire I was in San Antonio as a player And some of we were down oer two to the Houston roocket way back in in the Western finals And I think it was David Robinson or someone or Moses Malone. I'm going to use him because there's all kinds of stuff in this meeting. The first part of the meeting, Breg Popvichch is talking. Now Bob Hills our coach Dennis Robmin when Rop finishes Dennis Robinson Who's listening to you You're not the coach. is this is the meeting R right And Pop goes back at Denis And then Moses starts talking and Avery Johns said, Moses I love you, but your time has passed. andre we're not going to read your press clippings anymore. Yeah. thenen Avery goes after David Robinson. I mean, the meeting was a disaster It was a disaster. Having said that, we didn't go to the Houston and win games reinf. So you just never know So when you have those bings Most of the time, it's guys screaming at each other. and very rarely does it turn into a very productive group therapy session, like in an Apple TV show or something. Well sometimes sometimes you have phenomenal meetings. I will say there's been some good ones U but they're finly at some point player You did expect say something. s is something pisses off the entire lock room or another player. Now these two guys got a bef And it's all falling apart. That's usually what happens. It happens a lot. Yeah So when they were trying to put together, I talked about this a few pods ago, like Wes and Leon trying to put this team together and the modotel is the zero four pistons where it's like, we don't we're going to luck into a top three ltery pick But we can kind of smartly, we can build around Brunson U He could be like our buildill ups basically and we could just kind of patch together different guys and will have wings that can play defense and towns will be our big guy Do you see that when you watch them? Do you see the comparison? I mean, they're completely different teams. But two different teams because that pistons team, anyone could have a big night ight if you remember that where Yeah Well for the most part, Bronsson is their go to guy You know thirty one shots tonight. Yeah, he's the guy and Detroit played more team ball, more movement. So I a different team. Detroit was probably was a way better defensive team. Yeah. I think New York' a better offensive team in some ways, but listen When you look at the two teams, two teams couldn't be built any differently The spurs have done it basically through the draft. Fox is the only guy that you can make a case that they traded for. They signed some low budget free agencies that have turned out great for them But other than that, it's been Fx, right Yeah, where're the next I asked my son Smithzer, who on a Kicks team was drafted by the Kicks They plays. There's only one Mitchell Robinson? That's it. Yeah That's. Everybody else. they tradeed for. they sign in free agency. So you got to give Leon those guys a lot of credit. They they got the right pieces. they did. I thought the Villenhova thing was smart. Yeah, people want to knock it becausecause it did create a team. It did create unity and that was good Um, No one and I don't care if Leon or anyone, no one thought Bruston would be this good. U, and I really liked them You know, because people forget what he did. to feed it. Oh yeah in that series. likeike Yeah it was it wasn't just the Lucas show It was a Lua Brunson show. He did to Utah too for a couple of games. moments. Well, the Utah series, remember I think Lua misses the game He does and he just takes over. So he showed that he could do it No one thought he could do it full time every night and be this clutch So give New York credit. they sign him What I think they did better is once they realized what they had They built around it Um And I don't wantan to take shots at anybody, but I will say this. They are A lot of front office guys that can go out and get the stars There's very few of them to can then build the team into a championship team That's what you have to do. You can go out and get these names Can you make other moves. you know, you look at Danny Age he's done it a ton. Brad Stevens has done it Um Y know, Sam Presty You know, it took them a while. You think about all the talent the same impress he had and he finally kind of figured it out. like All right, we got the stars All right now I got to go get Hernstein. I got to go get Cruso. I got to go get some of these role players because that's what's going to win the game for us. San Antonio We don't even know who their road players are yet because they're so young all their guards are so good. We don't even know who could be the next star could be Harper C be Castso I mean, there's so many guys, but the next, give them credit U, Hart is a role player. That's who he is. He actually knows who he is Bridges is a role player That's who he is. He actually knows he is Robinson a role player And then the Carl Anthony Tyles trarait was humongous And it's a time I don't think anyone knew if it was a good trade or not, but it's turned out to be the game changer for them Yeah, that was one of those. It was really hard to have a hard opinion on that trade. Yeah I mean, you could see it from both sides being a disaster or I just I remember being like, I understand why they did it. I don't know if I like it. I understand the logic The logic was perfect. One of them was because the way he shoots to take a big outside of the pain and let Bresson work give Bresson more space Yeah that absolutely is happening. It happened tonight And they needed a center because the league barely has any centers. Yeah Yeah. You know, you talk about the team building part And you just came from Milwaukee they went the opposite way where They had Yanis and they were like, we We got to get another star for Yianis. and they traded basically all their future stuff for Dame and tried to put them together as the combo whichich I think is the old school model. Do you think like withith the way that this new CBA and the second apron penalties and It feels like we It feels like the depth and having a bunch of guys in that like seven to fifteen million dollars range is going to be more important than that second star. Yeah, I think and it depends on who the first star is in the to If you have a shave, if you have a brroneon, yeah, you get away with haaving a lot of other players and you know, Williams is better than just a lot of other players he's injured, but ye, maybe two maybe the two guys and then you have a bunch two and a half. Yeah. No, what happened in Milwaukee is they got old quick and their star wasn't You know Yeah. he was the young one. everyveryone else got old really quickly., you know, I think if they could redo that trade, they still do it, but probably keep drew. I thought From what I heard, they didn't think Drew and De could play together and what they didn't realize later is no, they needed Drew to protect him def physically from everybody else. So the fault I actually thought was right. the execution of the rest of the part probablyably didn't work out. Now Moving forward, all these teams have to be very careful. Like if you haveave you Your number one die is your number one die. U, but your're number two, three, four, five, you better with the cap and the apron It's so much harder B the three The three star thing is Gone Like we know that. just contractually you can't do it the two star thing h is still alive Wow You can make a case haaving a superstar, you know, a say and four really good players. U may be better Yeah, because the celts are in that situation now with Tatum and Brown. I think Tat him as the I think he has the third biggest contract per year next year and Brown has sevenh. So two topop seven I don't know, I don't know how sustainable that is for the rest of the decade. How do you put a team around that especially when you're watching a series like this where both teams go nine deep You know, Cornette, who we didn't talk about He came in at one point. I think Cornets a good backup center, but now it's the point As soon as Wby comes out of the game All the players in the other team are like just you can see the hop in their step that he's gone for four minutes. Yeah, but there's no play in history Maybe back in the day You know, and I'll being honest and shack a little bit I mean, listen, when Wimby walks off the floor I don't care who you are I think there's high school kids running right when when wey walks off the floor and they yelling dririve the ball now right do it because it was it was so obvious this first I think they get the nine point lead They sued him out and it was like the Kicks just attacked the basket immediately And so Yeah was it was sixty three fifty Yeah, he goes out And by the time he comes back in and sixty seven, sixty one, the Ns are back in the game. They're back in the game and Brunson got it going. Brunson got. Yeah, so you needed you had two things going at the same time You know what else was going by the way, the I had multiple Nick fans friends there They said it was like fifteen percent Nix fans It was more than I'd thought it could be. I was surprised. Yeah. That is pro game one San Antonio, people don't sell tickets. Well, clearly they do. But the Nick fans have been impressive. They they really have been. You got to Jel and B makes a ridiculous speech, you know, after they after they beat the Celtics about You know, I'll pay for the tickets And the Nicks, it was almost like the Nick fans took that person for What We're going to byy the arena. I mean, Yeah what carrying with the Nicks fans in Philadelphia was unbelievable That was crazy. You played for them a long time ago Yeah gotot inju Uh, you were involved with that team that came the closest they've ever been. and that was thirty two years ago Yeah I s I' active Well you told that story on another pod that we did about how they should have activated you for the last two rounds. Yeah Now this is fifty three years. I've been saying I think this is the biggest title that anybody can have right now unless maybe the bills, but the problem is the Nicks have You know, six generations of fans and they're the biggest city. It's not even close. I know that sounds funny because we're comparing football and basketball. Yeah. It's like the Cubs winning Yeah, you know, it really is in a lot of ways. if the mch can win this Uh, they've been through first of all, they went through a lot of bad basketball. It's not like They've been knocking on twenty years the door. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they went through a lot of bad basketball And then they kind of built this team Leon and U you you got to just give them all the credit in the world. and kind of MM West they they put this team together piece by piece And now they're in it and they're going to be in it for a long time. This is not a flke This teams going to be good. They're going to be good for a long time. Contractually they're set up really well overall Um, so yeah, um I can't I can't think of another team U with size of city and haven't won it that this would be any bigger. this this isn't as big as this century Red Sox and Cubs were the two big ones. Right. That's exactly right. The Red sockx and the com were too that they had to remove it from and then and then they got them. So now it's the Nick We talked about the chess match in the series So The Kicks come out and do two things maybe San Antonio wasn't expecting. Having towns guard Weemby and just playing super fast and seeing if they could discombobulate him. I think they knew that. I think San Antonio You they ready for a pace Yeah. All right, so now we go to game two in San Antonio,' like Okay. they're going to have Wemby do you zag now if you're the nexts and like no actually, I'm not going to have Wemby Towns and Wemby this game put Oie on them right away. I'm gonna do no. sometimes you overthink things. Yeah. That's in their back pocket They still have that. U I I if Towns had have gotten a quick file I guarantee you they would have switched and then they'll be on them right away. They didn't have to do it All right U, that was one. U two, I would be very surprised to see Wendy Garden Cl Anth any towns. I just think it puts Wendy out of hell And without the help I think it really hurts San Antonio. It also St want me away from the glass U, and so Even though towns heart will have free run to the glass, you still got a seven six Alen standing up there just swiping every rebound. So I think those are the two biggest changes that you'll see I had two mailbag questions for you quickly First one is from Jeremy in Portland. is the NBA experiencing the greatest parody era. in the history of the Lague. this year will be eight champions in eight years Half the league will have made the finals in the last ten years Do you think this is A fluke COVID's part of that or do you think this is just what the league is now I think this is what the league. I think this is what collective bargaining and what they want. you know, it doesn't allow the big Marx to just outspin like the Dodgers, you know Yeah it doesn't allow for that. Now it's going to come down to in my opinion, GMs that know how to build real teams I really do. I think you know Coaches get fired all the time, right Uh I think this is the era of GMs. you better do your job Uh, you all got the same type of money h You got a draft, right You have to trade right And more importantly, you have to sign right. I think this is also the era that most stars Stay home You're not going see a whole bunch of movement anymore. It's not going to be a bunch of guys just leaving their team I think you'll see more of the stars staying at home. Number one, they can make more money And number two teams can build around them. So it's going to come down to Yeahah, we know you can get us coming to r Well, we know you can get James hardard How do you build around that how do you put enough pieces around that. And so I think that's going to be the biggest change. Now, we'll say this Um, midseason, Dill Everyone said, there's a dynasty And it's in Oklahoma And we've been proven once again. R. There are no doubtest. There are no doubts winning us People When I hear People talk about, well, they've just gotta win the title People have no idea how hard it is to win. Everything has to go right for you Yeah You got to get lucky at times. You got to stay healthy. You got to make big shots. someomeone you don't know on your team has to make and they all have to get along. and buy it. it just takes It takes so much to win U and that's what I mean by you better build the right guys on the on that team and it's got to be one through fifteen. And I think that's the biggest difference Can you talk about how different it is now with all the two way guys And how much having a bigger roster how do you manage that I think that's hurt in some ways.. I think the smart teams h San Antonio or give them a a give a great example. Okay. Yeah, they still have all their two way guys, but they thought it was smart enough. h to get some vets, some older vets on a team Cornet and Harrison Barnes. Lenon Oh Lenic, the like That's a smart move. Now those could be two ways And I think a lot of the teams wouldn't sign those guys, Bill, and those are the teams that aren't winning I'm telling you, you need a couple of those guys at the back of your bench. I always saw in Boston We had the stars and then we had the older guys and it kind of boxed in the young guys. They had nowhere to go but to listen. You know, and I think that's really important. O team. So but it's harder now. You have these two way guys U It's making the league younger and younger and younger. It's it's what it's doing I do like it But if you are one of those teams that have a chance to win U, you may have to give up one of those two ways to ass sign a veteran on your team, a good veteran, not a guy who just wants to talk can't playank can't do anything. These guys are important and all of the teams have all of the good teams do Right. That's how like guys like Pat Honiton Uh O Linic, these guys end up pang Joe Egeless, Th guys end up hanging around for two extra years because they're not going to be at a teammate one two and three about how I should be playing Yeah. I' know why I'm not in Think about what Charlotte did. Charlotte has had a chemistry u culture problem. Uh they were forever forever. right? Yeah. you remember they that counted for one day and went back and resigned them because they knew He's not gonna play. But he's good. Now that doesn't last. It probably won't even last next year. they'll probably have to go get someone else those type of guys are invaluable. Coaches in the old days, you, when I first started coaching, you would always put someone at the end of your bench that you knew had your back I remember Monnie Willams when I was in Orlando. I just assigned Monnie middle of late to his career, but I knew Monnie was going to be loyal That's what teams coaches did that all the time. that not as much anymore. You actually need guys that are just great team guys now. Um I got a lot of emails wondering if the Chet Homgren series against Weemby had parallels to Ben Simmons in the infamous Atlanta Hawk series No completely That's fine. Okay I try to make sure Yeah there was were like he did not want to look at the rom anymore in game seven. I was getting flashbacks. Yeah. Well, first of all, he didn't get it a lot either, but you're right, you're right. like He was out he just was out playayed and it was clear like this is why I like Wimby. It was so funny. I love chet too, but this is why I love Winby. Wimy for whatever reason He takes Chip personal Chat's the greatest guy and so is Wimby, but You know women will never he can't stand them When he sees him And he goes right after him. and it's so obvious. Well you had that was Zach Randolph and Blake Griffin, remember? Yeah, o yeah. S thing. same thing Zack Randolph for some reason hated Blake Griffin and every time he saw him, he just wanted to go out of Yeah. and it's so interesting because All they did, somebody compared them Yeah And And for whatever reason, Wendy has Michael Jordan that's what I call his Michael Jordan guys. like You know, if you compared anything to Michael You had to deal with Michael and that's what it is. but we be listen Chet still one of the top four or five best defenders at his sides in the league. He's still an all defensive guy. He's going to be a better offensive team player. Oklahoma had two guys out in this series and They should not overreact,or nor nor will they unless they got a great deal That was the last question I had from you from Ma in Chicago talking about the Czckch the check game seven Yeah. And he said, canan you imagine what your podcast would have been like after Scottty Pippens's migrain game in the ninety Eastern confonference finals when the Blls lost to the Bad Bys. You would have had topics like can MJ win without a real number two can they get for Pippin? C P find five guys to trust. And I do wonder like this culture we're in now You know, we when we were When you were in the league in the beginning, like magic sucked in the eighty four finals, right? Yeah Pipp and had the migraine game. like People at Wthy had the eighty four finals when he threw the pass to Henderson for the steel. teams would lose and they would just move on to theam Turns the ball over. The gameess over. turnurns thes the ball flips the series. You know, when we were in with the clippers Just fall aad Two of the worst minutes in the history of the game, right? against Oklaha. It's Otlamoma City. Yeah. Yeah that game's over with You know, can you imagine There was a podcast during those times. I mean, that's all we would talk about And all those flares for the most part recovered It had great careers, you know, B sress What would be he? The exception to the rle Yeah, because this was ight You only have one champion every year thirty teams. There's going to be some ups and downs Sometimes it's not going to be your year You're going to have bad luck. You're going to have Jayen Williams get hurt. You're going have check get psyched out in a series. It's a tough one though because they say's not going to be a year If you if you really thought about it, like if championship is the only thing most of the time it's not going to be over year and a lot of times youre go into the season knowing if that's the bar This is not our year. if you're honest. Now when you have a shot at it Th you go after it. I've been fortunate. I've had some teams that You know, you can make the case had a chance, maybe not when you look back on them At least we were trying to get it. U, But even that, you know, I coach twenty what five years Five times six times seven times you, it's not that many chances that you get unless You're on one of those teams that you win young. And everybody stays and you get a chance to coach a star over and over and over again U Phield Jackson has had that, Steve Kurz had that Pop has done it Re in three in a races really too. I mean, because you got to combine the David Robinson Tim Duncan But Genobli and Tim Duncan They're all Duncin though. You can make a case. They all were dunkin related and now You know, this is where I got love pop, right this is where I where bothers me the most. that bothers me because I love mitch is that probably was thinking about retirement Right? And then he's like, oh my gosh I got this guy. I got I hit the jackpot. Yeah, hit the jackpot again. And then it kind of gets taken away from him U that's really sad to me. For whatever reason I don't know why it's sad to me But it's really sad to me Well, you mentioned Steve Kerr and how lucky you are to be able to get to coach somebody for most of their career their entire career He's just never leaving Steph It's become clear. I think he might just move in the steps Steph's guestroom or something. He never wants to leave that guy Well listen, but you think about the multiple winning guys Oh Michael Stoneb blooded killer G guy kind and great glue guide team wise in a tough way. Uh, Tim Doncin, come on. you can't have likeike a better guy, a better leader of a team. And steph, you can't have a better leader you know As much as, you know, I love LeBron, Katie and all these guys And that part of it they really did not have. you know, or or I don't know if they didn't have it but staff is just is so coachable. All those guys are coachable. Michael Jordan is crazy and tough as he was. The one thing you always heard about him, he respect coaching Bine He really did. I think it came from Dean. I think Dan kind of embedded that in him Tim Duncan Clearly did Um, and step clearly does and it's easy to build around guysu like that, you know, and none of those teams have you ever heard Tim Ducket? Have you ever heard him Dunkin say this is my team ight You know, haveave you ever heard stuff This is my team. Th my step went and got Katie It's here less Yeah. You never heard them say, I want my team. This is my team, you know? And Michael didn' have to say it.. U I do think that kind of stuff matters Well, it's you talk about Michael and Curry and Duncan and then I think wendby and Brunson are both like this too, which is ironic. They're playing the finals, but they're like I'm here. I'm with you guys to the bitter end builduild around me I'll be the leader. I'm going to stick up for everybody else, but I'm not going to leverage anything. I'm not going to go to the papers and I'm just I trust her to build the right tam around her N gonna to hear them whispers, you know, rumors They're just not going to do that and that's part of what I mean about character. I mean ye that's so important on teams, especially winning teams All right, Doc Rivers. Well, I'm gonna make you come back at least one more time during the finals. How How's oury Larry David doing? Is he all right? he make it through game one? Okay. made it through game one He's actually going to the garden, which I'm shocked by but he's going to do it, But we do know If things aren't going well, will'll just leave. Yeah out. He will absolutely leave. All right, thanks, Doc. We're gonna to take a break, come back with a little mail backack Thank you,ure Bill Simmonss podcast is brought to you by Fandel. It's all come down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA finals? Make your call with Fandl. rightight now, new customers can hit the court with three hundred and fifty dollars of bonus bets guaranteed after betting Five dollars for seven straight days. Fandal. the best place to bet all your favorite players during the finals bet on their baskets and boards, but the same game parleay for a chance Any bigger payp at futures, do whatever want to do. visit fander. com slash BS to get started. twenty one plus select states are eighteen plus DC Kucky Wyoming restrictions applyy terms at sportsbook. fano. com The problem called when Andrew Gamler called one eight seenty nine, seven seven seven seven or visit ccPG d. org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The World Cup is finally here and the coolest thing right now, FIFA World Cup launch edition on Netflix, a fast and fluid game where your phone is the controller and your TV is the stadium Play as as any of the forty eight teams in sixteen real world stadiums andents included in your membership. Yeah Go to the games tab in your TV and play Fefld World Cup, launch ition now on Netflix Our roll battery is the same. It's like castking ev full socer players are the same Take Messi, the most decorated player ever. Is there any other player who has achieved that? No, just him. Now take Duracl. Is there any other battery with power boost ingredients inside? No, just Duracl. Remember, goats only trust goats because they're built different, and Messi only trusts Duracl All right, I'm going to do a little solo mailbag. Got a lot of good mailbag questions. You can email us as always at BS podcast thirty three at gmail d. comot The most emails I got two subjects One was Steven Spielberg coming on and doing two thousand one of S space Odysy and the reatchables. A lot of questions, surprise that that was a surprise guess that we did not tip off and also Everybody thought it was a pretty amazing podcast Myself included Um The biggest question was what was he like? What was it like to sit there for two hours with him? and u Here's what I would say. one thing I've learned over the years when you're with or in the presence of somebody who's really great at what they do, no matter what it is Um, there's going to be a joy and a passion and a love for whatever their expertise is that they can' hide. And it really is one of the reasons that they're so good at what they do. And you can see with Spielberg, U Gest living director, probably the greatest director we've ever had and J just loves movies, justust loves talking about them, loves the whole process of them. The stories he was telling about the set, how he does how he interacts with different actors, depending on what their methods are just a huge student of it and I don't know. after spending two hours with him and just seeing how much fun he was having with us and with the format and just discussing the movie, it just The whole thing made sense. like, yeah, of course, he's the best director. This is how much he loves movies. This is his life. This is what he's devoted to So Um, that's the thing that that would be the big takeaway for me. Um Especially if somebody comes in They haven't been, you know over at the studio in my house. They don't really know what's going to happen. And he just like completely bought in and was so excited to talk about the movie with us. That was really cool. The other subject And People were wondering why I didn't seem more excited about the AJ Brown trade when I did the podcast with Max Kellermman on Tuesday So He's definitely one of the five or six best receivers in the league and he's going to be twenty nine when this season starts. So you figure they'll get three four seasons out of him m ideally when he'll be awesome. two would be a worst caseen. It's a little like trading for Yanis where it's like you know you're probably going to get two really good seasons after that, you don't know The salary stuff is pretty easy He's in the high twenties. you don't have all of these bonuses that you get if you're just signing a guy Um the reason I didn't seem more excited about it is I'm not positive why his production dipped the last couple years. And there's been a lot of good dialogue and a lot of good stats about this about when he was at Tennessee, he was over the middle a lot more at Philly, he wasn't. They basically just used him on the sides And yet all the stuff with the man to man stats with him. he's like Either he's the best receiver or one of the best receivers are just getting open and just being able to catch balls and traffic, everything So the question for me is like, Did he just kind of lose the will to live as a receiver by like five percent, especially last year after they won the Super Bowl because he wasn't being used in the way that he would have loved And ultimately these guys have to be inherently selfish to be great at receiver. and he's just like I'm here I'm a race car I'm in the driveway. Please use me. takeake me on the highway. You're not taking me on the highway enough. My engine needs to rev And he's just going to come to the Patriots and the Patriots are going to use him that way. And it willll be Mos in two thousand seven all over again Or Do you get a little worried that the Eagles who have always been a step ahead everybody really for the last nine, ten years, who seem like they're selling high in a guy that they traded a first round pick for Rde for a few years, got a Super Bowl out, then traded him for another first round pick How much did they know? Did they think he was heading toward a different phase of his career? I'm old enough to remember a lot of different receiver trades of guys in their late twenties, early thirties who were awesome, might be awesome again. and You just don't know. I think the Patriots had to do it. I wish they would have had to 've been able to put a protection on that twenty twenty pick, but Ultimately, the reason they didn't win the Super Bowl last year. and got kind of killed in the big game wasasn't just because they didn't have an awesome receiver. was because they couldn't block. And to me, with the tougher schedule and all the things that are happening this season with the Super Bowl hangover And not knowing if Drake Mayays one hundred percent. I'm glad we're going to have guys who can get open and we're going to big play guys. And we might have a guy who's going to have one hundred and fifty targets and fifteen hundred yards receiving and fifteen touchdowns and he's just going to be awesome. they can't block, none of it's going matter. So I'm a little more worried about that. Anyway, I was Im probably like seventy thirty, seventy seventy optimistic thirty, a little suspicious why we were able to just grab onene of the five or six best receivers in the league for A pC two years from now. That's why I was a little tempered. Anyway, some mailbag questions got a lot of questions or got a lot of answers from different readers about and I wondering what to call the Wenby Box and W And everyone was saying, just call it arerea fifty one Um Adam from Toronto said C what's in the box after seven I bet Kyle T. wanted to call it the French press, thought that was fun. The one Dan from Seattle was the first one that sent it and there were a couple more after This is the best one Vic in a box. Dan Dan from Seattle wrote, Vick in a box and boom goes the dynamite Perfect Vicabaxs is great It's an homage to I think Vick in the box was twenty years ago, that SNL thing, but I love Vic in a box and I'm going to be calling that from now on. So if they do it against the Nicks, who you could just say, look, Ohh, they're playing Vick in A box And Stehven got this email a few times too and I should have and I'm about to apologize Stehven from San Fancco, listening to the Kelerman Pod, wants to make sure he's not taking crazy pills because we talked about the best crowd killers and never mentioned a guy named Steph Curry The Gest shooter ever. The second that got brought up, I like many others immediately thought of the OKC game winner in sixteen or the twenty twenty two finals, game four, game six What am I missing with the definition of crowd killer and how was he omitted? Well Obviously, Steph would have been there. We kind of stumbled into that conversation. There was not a lot of thought put into the post twenty ten guys, obviously because we didn't include Steph Curry That conversation started just to remind you. It was what I wrote about Wal Fraasier in my basketball book in two thousand nine And I wrote, I'm too young to remember watching Clyde Live, but he was a legendary crowdkiller by all counts. In my basketball watching lifetime, only seven guys were crowdkillers, Jordan Byd, Kobe, Bernard, Isaiah, Andrew Tony, and strangely enough, Vinny Johnson. So those are my seven. All right, so I actually went in, I looked through basketball reference. I looked through all the scores. I really wanted to make sure I didn't miss anybody. and I also want to explain the definition of a crowd killer because There's been a bunch of guys we've had in the last fifteen years that have had moments that would have been added to that list. like most famously LeBron game six, twenty twelve in the East LeBron, Durant, Kaairi, Kawi, Dame Even James Harden They've all had crowd killer moments, but I think the crowd killer thing is it's a little different because It's a recognizable heat check But there's an inevitability to it. And that's what we were talking about with Brunson It like in that Cleveland game They're down twenty two and he makes a couple and the inevitability kicks in like, oh boy, I've been here before Um I think Edwards can get here He's not there yet on this list. I think he can get there. I would he would be a draft pick for me. And I think SGA is like ninety five percent there. thing that probably kills him with this is the fouls and the flopping Sometimes the crowd is so mad at some of the calls that they're not being killed because they're actually engaged because they're mad at SGA So he doesn't really one hundred percent fit, but maybe he'll get in there. So for the last fifteen years, I had initially Jordan Bird, Kobe Bernard asiah Tony Vinny Johnson from the last teen years you have to add stuff. And you have to add Brunson There's one another other guy though. I think Weby has to be added Even though he's twenty two and even though his whole career is ahead of him and who knows? this might be the peak. the combo of him on defense And then him when he gets going on offense. U and his ability to make thirty foot threes like he did in game one of the OKC series I thinky Weemby might be the tenth. He might be the only center. It's funny. Ieed it had a couple crowdkiller moments, but we've never seen him do it. It didn't really matter U But Wimby, I think When Wendby is kind of starting to levitate above the game The crowd gets psyed out in a real noticeable way that you could feel. So that would be the tenth. Jonathan C writes Is there any country that had a worse eight sports month than Canada Blue Jays won out from World Series champs. The bills flame out. I like the candidate claims the bill, they should They lose to their biggest rival in OT in men's and women's Olympic hockey Toronto Vancouver, Calgary winnpeg gmost the playoffs. Montreal makes the easastern finals and loses. to the former Har for Walers SGA becomes one of the most maligned players in the league and loses in game seven He's still going. We have no Canadians and golf or tennis making impact and no MMA guys He's still going Bred Hart came off awful in the Hogan documentary And then he said, Samy Zan seems lost lately. Help us out, Bill Um Jamal Murray just said he wasn't playing for the two twenty eight Canadian team, that was another thing that came out. The Mapleeafs won the lottery So I got SJ win the title last year is C to be he's already probably one of the best thirty guards thirty pos of all time? I don't know. could be worse You got to figure out the hockey thing though not not winning a cups that's ninety three when it's your national sport barrassing. There's got to be a lot of soul searching going there I got a lot of emails about this. I'll just read three Alestar in the Blue Mountains of Australia. That's how far this theory has trickled What if game seven was the Ben Simmondons game of Chet's career and he put in parethes professional fisherman Ben Simmons, not my son Ben Simmons Chris from Philadelphia said, Chris'uries our chet's spur series reminds me of when Ben Simmondons' career ended against the twenty eleven Hawks and how he completely imploded. backack at the box bar from game seven and Simmons went two for four from the field. He did have thirteen assists, but still Maybe this ends with a Chet versus Simmons Bassmaster classic in twenty thirty five, I want to hear thoughts And then the last one I got on this was from MJ from Milwaukee My comp from Chet is Rocky and Rocky three facing Weby as Cober Lang. I think I made that joke. He was scared. He didn't want to be part of them too fast. hasasn't say anything like this. Weby basically said, Don't get this suckking no statue, give guts My question, who's going to be Chet's Apollo Who's going to take him to the gym and find his quickness Who's going to race some on the beach, hug them uncomfortably There is no demire from MJ from Milwaukee I don't think that person exists. Here's the thing. this is You know, a couple OKC fans emailed about this too, but I hadn't thought of it about the when OKC lost to Dallas the first time they made a playoff run in twenty twenty four when Dallas made the finals and Dallas guarded shit a little bit similarly where He's a slow release three point guy. So you can kind of play off them and then dive back at them, which is what the Spurs were doing. And I think His real Achilles Sle other than he's in the same league as a seven foot six UFO is that um He's got to figure out how to have a quicker release on those corner threes because he's a good three point shooter I still like chet. I'm not going to get psyched out by that series. We talked about this in the O one of the pods recently, there's been a lot of great players that have sucked in playoffs and He's at his age and What we've seen from him so far and the fact that they've already won a title with him. quitting on shit with that said I still want to know who says no to a chat to the Cippers for the fifth pick trade because the Cippers do have cap space And that would give them the foundation of Chet and Garland And Leonard and then they could kind of patch around the sides. They've been really good at finding like mid level free agents and veteran guys U One trade I thought of, quippers get shet And a future kings first They move back to spots. Kings get the fifth pick so they can take A cff, who I think is going to go fifth. Okay, he gets the seventh pick from the ippers And then they take Mara, the the Michigan center And, um That's their cheet replacement along with Hartenstein. They save a bunch of they would save thirty plus million dollars with versus a seeventh pay Karstein kindind of like that one. pllus the Cippers pick up a future King' asset and still get che U That's around the range. I don't think top four is a chet range, but I think five to seven could be at rage. But as I said multiple times already. It is not Presty's history or or It's just never something we've seen. He's not a panic trade guy and he's not oh God, we gott to do something guy. He's a continuity guy Andrew, speaking of fake trades, Andrew said it's not just the finals, it's fake trade season You should come up with at least one fake trade for every podcast episode until for Aday starts. Well we are doing a lot of episodes this month Or Rank your favorite five fake trades every Sunday night with Zach More fake trades, exclamation point. I don't have a question If we ranked our favorite fake trades every Sunday night was Zack, he would spend way too much time on that and probably have to be hospitalized. But I'm not against it Okay, june third, twenty sixteen, My favorite fake trades right now One of them is a Celtics one that I've kind of been hinting at for the last couple of weeks on this podcast. I keep mentioning Murphy on the Pelickans as posossible Celtics pe And the reason is because if the Celtics decide We already want to title with the Jays. We don't want to pay both of these guys. rightight now, they are two of the top seven contracts in the league and not just by length of the deal by what their price tag is just for the twenty twenty six, twenty seven season. And if they decide that's not sustainable in this current era We have to figure out how to turn Jayen Brown into multiple pieces and a cheaper guy. Treay Murphy makes twenty five million do which is thirty million less than Jayen Brown Here's the trade The Celtics would get Trey Murphy Missy, the u the young senter who I like Perb Jones And Kam Johnson from the nuggets. stay with me Plus a twenty thirty pelkin swap and pick twenty six. Denver, which they would have to do after the draft because Denver's not allowed to trade their first one pick U Newrleans again goods Jalen Brown Denver gets Sam Hauser and pick forty in the trade So then the Celtics would have too many swingmen and then they could flip hererb Jones for something else. about Kim Johnson they could put him in their giant trade exception they get. But I think If the Celtics trade Jallen, I don't think's to be for Yanis. I think it's going to be a trade like this multiple pieces, more flexibility U guysu that would lead to one extra move after this and I think that's what they're thinking I also think they could separately just trade Sam Hauser for Kam Johnson and put him in that trade exception and get pick twenty six and try to pick twenty six and twenty seven in the draft Then see if you can move up into the teens with those two picks. Um I mentioned Denver the other day and a bunch of nuggets fans Nuggets media members are mad Bring it on I stand by what I said, Hey, Denver, you're rich. I know about the second Apron tax. I know about all that shit. They could Um not pick up the Valen Sheunz contract for this year and then figure out how to trade Cam Johnson for less and sign Payton Watson. And by the way, I don't think Peton Watson's getting as much money as everybody thinks. I don't know where his twenty million years coming from U We saw the guy play wellf for like five weeks and got hurt. six weeks, eight weeks. I can't remember what it was But I don't think I don't I think that's the range of guys that everybody's scared of right now. seventeen to twenty two million where you're overpaying like basically exactly what happened to the nuggets last year with Christian Brown I think was her last year. but U If I'm Denver I pick I' Valoundchunus and I'm trying to downgrade with Kam Johnson. And if I'm the Celtics then I can turn Sam Hauser into Kam Johnson. And then if if It is time to trade Jayen Brown, who knows My instinct is still that they're going to keep these guys, but If you could turn the S Hauser into Kame Johnson Eespecially because he's't expiring at twenty three million. That gives you flexibility for February. I think everything the Celtics are going to do This summer is going to be about flexibility. They have a lot of young players that they like. Um they have two giant contracts. They don't have really any of the in between stuff. They have the Prchard extxtension coming Anyway, that's my first trip Second one, Portland gets Gianas and all his brothers I think there's only two Milwaukee gets Jeremy Grant Scoot all their pick swaps back. Portland has, I think, two firsts and a swap, something like that plus another first and another swap Por than Gianis We've talked about this trade before. I'm not breaking new ground here. Um, And I don't know if you honest wants go to Portland. I had heard he wants to in theast Coast. That's too far for him. And who knows if he wants to play for El Chipo? the Blazers owner who's already out a media tour trying to claim that he's not E Chipa Pus, Carolina It' in the Stany Cup finals. So he's like lookook, my L cheipost stuff works If Portland could figure out how to get Yanis without really giving up anything in their core and being able to put him with Drew Holiday and cling in and Kamara And u and most importantly, Denny And I just think That's like that's a better situation for him than Miami trading basically everything they have except Bay him out of Bio and all their picks and just ending up with Bam and Yanis and trying to figure it out Um That's the most fun to see you hon us on that team, reunited with Dame, reunited with Drew Holiday Hm. The other one would be Palo Friana straight up And I don't know who has to throw in more for that, but as we mentioned a few pods ago Orlando hired Yanis' old assistant in Milaukee, Seaan Sweeney, who is the all time I can't believe you're not for Massachusetts, Massachusetts guy in the NBA Seaan Sweeney Palofrianus makes a ton of sense for everybody. The last one Washington gets Jimmy Butler in a Golden state twenty seven first unprotected Don't stay at' Anthony Davis followed followed by the warriors signing LeBron James And we officially had the expendables again We have Anthony Davis, we have LeBron, we have Draymond We have Steph Curry By the way, they can get Jimmy Butler back thanks to this stupid Mike Connlly role that we nobody ever knew about where Mike Connlly got traded by Minnesota to I think Washington or Chicago somewhere Then got traded again and waed and all of sudden Minnesot was going was able to pick them up. So maybe they could end up picking them back up in February. But I'm all in. I listen I've been driving this Golden State bandwagon. I also think there's real smoke. And I think there's some fire with Le Brono in a goolden state I think it's his best option, especially when you look at San Antonio and you look at OKC Um the young cores they have, how good their players are and what those kind of the ceiling of those teams are compared to any other situation LeBron could be in You're better off doing the Allar team. Um, and the tour with Steph and the punchers' chance of maybe all these old guys together could do some Magic in the playoffs one last time. They'd sell out every arena Everybody would be in on it. I still love that idea. Um Nat in Oakland says, Hey, Bill, I know you like a good title defense. What do you make of the Thundnderers honor level in their title defense? And how does it make their twenty five title look? I think the parallel is the two thousand fifteen and sixteen warriors The sixteen run proved the twenty fifteenam was legit. I completely agree. I talk about this a lot. Title defenses are really important to me. I wrote about it in my book. It's the biggest thing you can dig the eighty three sixers on They lost in five to a really weird nets team in nineteen eighty four and I feel like when you win the title, you got to defend it in some way U, you have to have a little bit of pride. eighty seven Celtics being the best example of this. The teams just breaking down like like an army platoon and there's still somehow make the finals I would give OKC's defense an eight point five. The Jalen Williams thing, the further we get away from it, losing your second best guy. I was trying to think like is there another example of anyone in this century who lost their second best guy and won the title? No They went seventy five and twenty two this year. eightight of their losses came against the sppurs. They went seventy one and fourteen against everyone who was in the spur spurs this year And they went one hundred and fifty five and thirty five in two years. So I thought that was an awesome title defense. plus they turned into villains What else he want? And now they have the eye of the Tiger for next year. We have a great chet subpop. mayaybe he goes to Australia Hikes the outback, grows a beard. biger beard, he has a beard Bush your beard Noah from Conway, South Carolina said massive sppurs fan here. question is Wen be the first true non USA face of the Lague He or Yokj ever truly been the face. Has the media and the fans truly ever accepted them He mentioned Sakim, he mentioned Dir Nash, u Even as USA has fallen behind in the best of the Lue conversation. it feels like Yokca Jianison Shay ass in their seats like Weby thoughts. I hate the face of the weeague I said multiple times, I don't like it. I think it's stupid. People act like we always have to have one. It's kind of It's the mountain in the league they have to climb if you want to win the title that people are just thinking about it all times. is how I would think about it. And in football, You know, is Brady forever And then it just became my homes. And it was like, if you get by my homes That was almost as big of an achievement as winning the title So I think that's a piece of it combined with the mom test of Does my mom know who this player is? Does your mom know who this player is? Does anyone who doesn't follow sports know who the player is? Are they bringing in casual fans And is just there a general recognition person and we have just not had this since LeBron and Curry and we definitely have an now with Wby. And this is what I said all along. You know when you see it, you can't force it You can't say, oh, it's Grant Hill A, it's SGA. you just can't You know when you see it, Yokage was ninety percent there, but never totally got there. He doesn't resonate like wheny did Um, LeBron was that guy from twenty eleven to sixteen Curry and the wararriors collectively F the second part of that decade. Kobe and Shackq together. MJ, Bird of Magic simultaneously carearem. You know it when you see it and Wendy has it right now, no matter what happens in this finals nextext year when we go into next season, we'll be talking about Wby and thepurs who could beat them and also Wy Wy wy Wemy and he will sell out every arena he's in He would get the biggest ratings and That's what happens Um Josh S wants to know if Nicks win the title this year is this the most improbable NBA championship when compared to where everything stood at the start of the playoffs They completely revamp their offense halfay through a playoff series. Their best playerers four foot seven I think he's hard than that And it's the fucking New York Kicks. Given where we were six weeks ago, this would be the most improbable championship if they pulled it out So They were six to one to win the East before the playoffs. I gave I tweeted out some picks before the playoffs and one of the Log shot ps was Brunson to be the eastern confference MVP was plus six hundred fifty. And I think they were six to one w in the East That obviously flipped So For improvable Championships, twenty two Wriors The twenty eleven Dallas. nineteen seventy seven Blazers The nineteenth seventy eight Sonics making the finals. they didn't win, but that was incredibly improbable as was the twenty and twenty three heats, but they didn't neither of those teams win either The seventy five Warriors was pretty improbable And then the sixty nine Celtics are the big ones. But this I think the parallels to this one would be the twenty eleven Mavericks where very similar to the Mavericks where it felt like they hit rock Bottom in the first series and the Mavericks had Portland U And then there was multiple times when it just felt like Um they didn't have a chance, then they even get to the finals. They're two to one underdogs. So I would say the twenty eleven Dallas The twenty two warriors, it was always felt like if they could just stay healthy and figure out their shit U A few des with Boston and Milwukee, Milwake had Midleton banged up, Boston had never been there before. and there was always a sense like if Golden State could just get there. think' st it out. Dallas m Especially when they're down fifteen in game two after having lost game one. That was improbable as the finals was happening, it seemed the problem. Um Zach Hogue said, he mentioned how I've always had a theory that championships and success come in bunches for cities Is France having that moment right now France who's already won a World Cup final or made the World Cup final last two years and they've won one PSGs now went back to back Champion League. French swimmer, Mar Chan, not very familiar with his work, but he's apparently shattering Michael Phelps' worldld Reords. The French rugby team has won a couple of championships, bigig deal in Europe. sureure. Whenemby's down in the NBA fininals, you could make cases the best part in the NBA Um So Zach asked why not hammerrance to win World Cup with the sppurs to win the NA finals and just bet on the summer of France You're seeing this after game one of the finals That was plus seven seventy before the finals. I already had Spur's money I threw some more on that that one the yearar of France. So this is something I didn't realize until after I did the podcast with Max. Game six of the finals is on Tuesday, june sixteenth and That same day, France is playing in New Jersey. at the giant football stadium. they have a World Cup game at twelve and then Potentially game six with the next would be that night and people could be like, could you try to go to both? It's so crazy that France would be playing in the same night that Wby could potentially be be quenching his first NBA championship that I almost feel like it's destined to happen I really do I was thinking about when I in nineteen ninety four. Um I went my buddy, Jim Grady was living in Porchester with my friend Camp And I went up there and we were supposed to watch Game five of Nicks Rockets. and that was the night of the OJ. Car Chase. And it just was like this crazy night that has been immortalized in multiple TV shows and documentaries and They're doing split screens and it was definitely one of those I I remember where I was when I watched this game and this whole car chase thing I do wonder if that june sixteenth is gonna be kindind of a crazy day like that with the double France thing Um It's just something some sort of signature French moment. Plus seven seventy. We'll see if that one hits We're going to take a break We're going to come back. And we're going to talk about TV shows and TV versus movies and a little seesaw that's starting to shift. And also we're going to talk about Euphoria in the season finale, that show, series finale now We're going to talk with Joeanna Robinson and Chris Ryan, and that is next right after the break. This episode is brought to you by Duluth Tading Company Whether it's the nineteenth inning, the twelfth quarter for the fifth and a half shift overt timee. Not going anywhere which is why Duluth builds hard working gear for folks who work butts off There' surefire arsenal workshirts are built for function and comfort giving a big foam middle finger to all that is futile And the new no quit utility shared is equipped with cooling and wicking tech. Ohh boy you comfortable all while being tough enough to take down your most daunting tasks When it's Marathon work session versus you, give no quits I a gllue store near you to Lut trading. 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Check resespons is set up required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus All right, I'm here with Joinna Robinson Chris Ryan. we just did a rewatchables taping. so I kept them around to talku little pop culture. Euphoria was last night. Serious for now, it sounds like How is the space confirmed to would have My least like seeasons of television I've had. I've never gotten so many all caps texts from you I was fearred hatred. I really hated it. Yeah And I hate shitting on tea. these things are hard to make. There's a million actors expectations but there's certain seasons. there was a Dexter season I remember that I was just like, I'm never fucking watching this show. Did you keep watching it You were out before the end of Dexter? Oh yeah Did you do that on lost? Did you ever freak out on lost I didn't like the last season of lost but that show had built up so much goodw for me. Euphoria. It goes away for years. back and has three of the biggest under thirty five actors that we have and just fumbles it So I was it was an F minus for me, but what did you think? I was like a C I would say for me, I think there's some stuff in the finale that was really, really good I'm baffled by the way in which this season and this finale, especially bggg down in this like, there's this Nazi cohort And then there's Alamo and his bad guys. And so there's like two big shoot out sequences that take up a lot of this episode. thirty minutes into the finale, we're still like shooting Nazis. And I'm just like, What about all these characters we spent all these years with? Like Hunter Schafer plays Jules is barely in this finale. You know, Cassie and Maddie are kind of in the finale. It was just really confusing to me. I understand the impulse and it's okay to want to sort of Try to try something new with your show. like We reinvented ourselves for this season, but you still have these legacy characters that have been there from the beginning. So to not give them A conclusive story or more airtime in the final episode was absolutely insane to me. Yeah, I was probably a lot warmer on it than you guys were. The addiction stuff really worked for me. I thought the Zendea Coleman Domingo like relationship was amazing. Very good And I'll say what I've kind of been like trumpeting the whole year with the show with Andy is I was just never bored. So much TV bores me. you know, like so much of the time I'm like, oh, I can see where this is going or I know it's going to happen now is like this X, Y Z is going to kind of play out And when she, I guess, obviously spoilers for this episode of Euphoria. I mean the finale But when she passes away at like the forty minute mark and there's still another hour I was like, oh, are we gonna to spend an hour kind of remembering Rue and doing the funeral? And then it turns into fucking taxi driver? I was like Well, I didn't see this coming. You know, like I kind of thought maybe Al Ali would sacrifice himself for ruue in some way but it was such like a weird dark fantasy of like the vengeance that probably people who lose people to addiction feel like they want to take out And it was just I mean, you could you could say a lot of it, but it was very unique. So I'm probably more in the B zone. if you're F and she see, I'm I'm a little bit higher on it, but just because I was like This never, this never was dull to me Well that's why I wasn't sure until HBO confirmed it after we recorded our finale discussion, but that they confirmed that this is the final season. But I wasn't sure that it would be not, I mean, Jacob Lord and saide would no longer be on the show, but you have plenty of other people and people are talking about it every week. Yeah hard to find in this TV landscape. So I was a little surprised that HBO didn't try to squeeze another season out of Sam Levinson. It feels like they were probably good I'm just saying I have this idol season that was pretty crazy and super expensive. I'm sure this season was not not expensive with probably be. I think the season was also marred by like the strikes and COVID and stuff like that. So it sounds like it went through a couple of different like full creative Be they wast an actor an actor? Yeah lost an actor and they also were cursed by never having their best actors all in the same scene for different reasons. I think for shooting schedules, but al re It really does seem like Zende and Sdy Swedy did not want to be in a scene together U which I think hurts the show. It was just it felt very disjointed to me. I didn't like the allordy stuff at all. I didn't understand it. Nate shouldt have been a really good actor. likeike what the fuck is the point of that? Nate shouldn't have been in the season at all. should O should have died in the first if you're going to use it that way, just kill him in the first episode. The whole point of him is to create this well, the whole point of him is to say we have Jacob Lerti on our show in twenty twenty six, right? Yeah. That's why you keep Bordie around. But for plot reasons, you really just needed Cassie to be in debt And so he could have died in the they could have had the wedding and he died in like the firstpisode. But that's that's stuff kind of hardly gets interrogated in the finale, like that was one of my problems with it is that like this sort of chain reaction from Rue tells Lexi that she's a DA in DA informant. Yeah. And then Lexi tells Maddie And Matdie tells Alamo Alamo seems like probably would have found out either way, but like There's no reckoning with like Maddie being like, I can't believe like this is what happened to Rue. like does she even know? I don't she's the reason and that was that was really bothered me because I know you're not like a huge Maddty slash Alexid Demi fan but I really love that character and I think She's one of the smarter characters on the show. and so for her to just casually drop DEA information in front of Alamo, I thought was like a bizarrely stupid move to not then have any ramifications at all for that character like emotionally is. I mean, this is Like a show that did does something did something in an incredible way that TV shows rarely do any way anymore, which is like mint stars. Like when you think about the fact that like That there's that shot of Zendeaya, like the young Zendaya when she's having her flashback she was a kid when she started this.. And like, So for them to have this lightning in a bottle with three performers, especially Alordi Sweety and Zendaya and it kind of have it wind up where it winds up. I guess it does feel a little bit like a wasted opportunity, but it's not surprising. that you know, like but given their schedules and stuff like that, it is it is disappointing, but it's not surprising that they're not more scenes together. But I just don't think something like Andy was just saying this today on the pod like I don't think anything like this is ever going to happen again where you have This amount of like to. So that's why I give it the f minus I don't think it was enough plan a show. But I think they had the opportunity to do something really special with the people they had. And I just don't think they pulled it off. And you' think the rivalry is head of that way. You think off camp head that way. Mbe. I don't know what they tried to do with Sidney Sweeney this season. She seemed to enjoy it But were seem to love it and I'm so curious what you thought. Were they mocking is the perception of her or was he mocking her without her knowing she was think was the former I don't I feel like it was a little cm little c me. Like I think there was just like a little bit of Cdy Sw not being in higherly in on the joke but her being somewhat in on the joke. That's how I felt. So my daughter, who loved this show and that's a big part of like her generation. Yeah And she liked This the finale But she likes everything because she really liked Ruin and the Coleman Domingo c. Zoe had theory like, I don't think who's going to die because she's the narrator. Right. Yeah. And she thought that he would die and then she would take his place and so they flipped it I guess the problem with Levinson is also the best thing about him. He can make anything look good and entertaining Right? So this turns into like a Western. we have like a whole Nazi shootout. Yeah. And it's all that's really well done and well filmed and just interesting And then you kind of think about it after you're like, what the fuck just happened Why was that? I'm just not emotionally invested in it. Yeah whyy did I just spend an hour, forty five minutes watching that? And if that was a movie, That have been a good use of my time. I don't know I disagree there on one thing though I was pretty bored Yeah through multiple stretches yesterday. I just was like, what the fuck Not to shoot out. I thought was like unbearably long in this like the Lorie suicide when I'm just sort of like, I don't care about this character. I don't care about Anbody in that house. When So when I say that, I mean, even when I would be like, this is the third time they've had this conversation or the fourth time the scene has happened Visually, I would be like, Yeah, yeah. there's something that popped like Even the shootout in the Nazi like I thought the tunnel sequence was cool. I thought the Lasso sequence was cool. Like there's stuff where I was like L shit. Like nobody really makes Westerns like this right now Well, and as two people who were like podcasting about it week to week, like there was always something to talk about and people were talking about it. And in this like you know, attention economy, like the fact that people were engaged at all even if they were angrily engaged. I mean, I don't know if that's a negative message to send, but like There's something importantative about. Yeah, important about. I guess the bigger issue is can any show end in a way that satisfies the fit base Yeah. H' finale rules also happened this week. When did the two specials come out What year? No, I mean, like was it between one and two onene and two? Yeah, so like betweenween one and two, they did these two specials. One was about Jules and one' about Ollie and Rue. I was I remember thinking back about those like just after watching last night and being like, Man, like I wonder if it would have worked better if it was like three of these weird Yeah. I'm going to do a neate movie. I'm going do a Cassie movie and then I'm going to do the Ollie and Rom movie. and we'll put it all together and it'll be like a six to eight week special event like wrapping up the you a storylines. Yeah, like. But like to your point I wonder if there was holding out hope of like, well, maybe we'll do more. mayaybe like in five years we'll come back and they'll be like, They'll all be older then and maybe I can do the Rue as a private detective story then. and all this stuff that have been kicked around as ideas. Yeah Too much time passed And I think That was a huge problem. I think it's really hard to figure out how to land the plane correctly when you're also trying to land the plane on this is five years after the last time you've seen all these people. And I do I mean, like, you know, would I rather had season three of Euphoria rather than the Idol? Yes But I do mean, we can't underestimate the impact that losing Angus Cloud had on this entire crew and this creator and stuff like that. So like I can understand that while still not enjoying the end product of what we got It's better if it's just a fibrier runun in for high school And we don't go completely over the top and make this like the absolute craziest There were scenes this season where it's like You're trying to set the record for the craziest scene that's been on HBO five different times. It's like the Dildo Would it almost have been better sccaling it back the other way and trying to make the show a little more normal when it wasn't. Yeah, it's almost distracting at points because like when Oie is doing his vengeance tour and you're like, wow, I'm really engaged. This guy's got his military uniform on. this like rolling thunder it's happening. Yeah. But then you've got like fake Brazilian buttlifts like walking across the screen every second. Yeah. And I know it's set in a strip club, so it like works. There's no strip cub in the world like that. But it's also just like concentrate. L tell the story that's right in front of you rather than making sure I see four snakes and two buts. You have one of your main characters in the show, Maddie here in this shootout, but she might as well have not been there. Yeah. She was a piece of furniture. It was so weird. You like the Hckx finale a lot? I loved the Hcks finale. Yeah. I did I liked it and it was also, but it was interesting. Did you watch hacks at all? No Something happens at hacks where they like kind of get up to the edge of something very, very Unexpected and impactful happening U and they back off of it at the last second, probably for the best for like in terms of people's enjoyment of it But I'm glad I'm glad that with Euphoria, they were like, this is what happens to people who dance too close to the sun a little. But also I would say with the Hcks Mallion, I guess we're talking around it like they don't say it's not going to happen. sure It's just not happening in this end this episode. Yeah, right TV's in a weird spot right now, even though we're all watching a ton of it. This year is very the back half of this year is very strange. I don't know like I don't know what The whole year has been weird because one of the weirdest things that's happened is we thought TV had taken over from movies. And now movies is having this huge renaissance because they're actually making movies about original IP. Sewn just heard you across town. I know, sorry, Seawn conversationally He and Steven Spielberg clinking espresso. C conversation, I think more and more people are doing the Ifve seen him passashion in like the way it used to be. I don't know why we had to die for ten years And I don't think it was You know, and I know this is we've done so many pods and different things about this, but I really just think everybody got lazy for a long time. And then it finally started not making money And then it's like, well, maybe we need to find new stories. It's like, yeah, motherfuckers Oh in CVD movies. Yeah. COVID definitely fucked it up and knocked it backwards. Maybe this all would happen three years sooner. moovies just feel a little more vibrant than TV right now. Like if I see another fucking Apple show and I've watched most of them, where it's three actors I've known a few times from different things Yeah And there's a murder and one of them died and now we go backwards. and like how many fucking times can you make that show Are you excited for Cape fear No, I'm not gonna to watch get fair. Widows Bay, we're loving Widows Bay The pit How get there? The pit wereere you It was the last one. Yeah, I loveved the pit. The pit the You know because I was sending you a text about it. I do know. U Pitt was So and now people are going to rip the pit off And then we're gonna to get a lot of like every hour and his ripp the p Yeah Pitt was just ripping, you know, The crazy st. Michel crayly. He actually sort Pitt is just doing old school television There's something about they got. I think that collectively and you could do a Matt Belly conversation about Mving away from networks and into streaming services and why like different priorities change. They're was something about the golden age of television that basically raised Joe and Joe and I as as people who talk about this stuff. where it was like Breaking Bad and Sopranos and some of these shows, even if maybe there had been a feature script at its origin story ever felt like a new and different way of telling stories And then when you have this gold rush and talent rush into TV But it's like Yeah, guess what? Nicole Kimman's going to be on this. But she can only shoot for like four weeks. So can we do all of our scenes in three sets And they have to be like before we know what the end of the show is or I'm not even talking about a specific show, but I feel like more and more you can see the scene schedule reliant off shows where you're like, oh, Did they actually not have like the ending or like what happened here and that and also it's connected to what Bill was saying about sort of this idea. The way in which IP or superheroes or whatever however you care to put it took over movies, Th all those like mid level original ideA movies became like drawn out limited series because that's the only place you could tell those stories. Yeah. But you didn't have enough story there. so you just get this like really thin sort of diluted version of what would have been a good like, you know, just movies for adults movie. People could tell, you get tired over the time. A lot of those Apple shows that you're talking about are just stretched out movies that people can't get made as movies and so they're taking them to And you make more money if you stretch it out. There's a behavioral going on and I recognize in myself where I get like three episodes into a show and I'm like, That's pretty good, but I think I'm good. I got it. You know what I mean? my God, you make it three. But you know what? I'm like an episode I'mre them out. You're like kind of cruising through a Netflix or an Apple or an Amazon show and you're like I think I got it. You know, like I think I think that this is like kind of did you do any more burs after we talked about it? No, I think I got it. Yeah. I mean like that's a good example. Legends is like a great show on Netflix I was like I got to finish this, but There's something daunting, especially if like, you know, like you said, like movies have kind of had this a little bit of a revival of like, we got to go out and see backrooms like the weekend. it comes out because it feels like that's people are talking about it. Really like I can't believe. I mean, we li in LA., obviously where everybody loves going to the movies And we have great apps now where you can see how many seats are available and things like that. I was thinking about making my wife go to see backrooms last night and looked in the morning and there were a bunch of seats left and like the ten o'clock You know, they it was By the time it got to two o'clock, like everything was gone. It was like sold out. It was like, holy shit. And to my son about it because him and his friends, my son's eighteen. they love going to movies obviously. I do think a big piece of this other than the original IP thing peopleeople were COVID K kind of in their house for a while, not being able to go out as much. And then that started to slowly shift away. and then now it's back to normal. And now people are looking for excuses to go out again I don't feel like was there a few years ago for a variety of reasons. They've also now they're learning that and they just announced that obsession was supposed to come out this week on paid video they delayed it. And now they're delaying it for like another thirty days or forty days And a opposite is happening with TV where it's like There's four five shows a year that deeals they are weekly and everything else is like these binge drops that it's either Were you psycho and you watched it on Friday or have you watched it over the course of two months Yeah and you got to finish it, but you haven't yet. and Joe and I are both huge fans of Widows Bay. One of the reasons why It's been kind of like this cool little show is that you can kind of feel it game momentum. The same thing happened with the pit. Yeah in his first season in the Pit. Watching Audiences need time to find these things and if Potos Bay had been a binge jump You wouldn't have this like as the audience grows and then week to week and Widows Bay is a little bit of a theory show. Surely people get to trade theories and get really invested. And I've just like always been anti binge. It is very anti social And like what you're talking about in terms of this like post COVID thing is the social experience. When you go to a movie and you sit in a dark room with people and you laugh or you cry or whatever it is You are feeling something with people around you and we're in a psychological space, societal space right now where people feel so isolated, people feel like they can't connect or agree on anything. And if you have this communal experience. TV can be that If it comes out week to week and if everyone's watching the same thing, which is so hard to capture.'s happening with sports sporting events too. like sports is completely back and attendance is doing great in all these different places because people like want to be with people. Yeah. Bingch thing, we've been talking about it on this podcast forever Um I just don't like it Herrible But I'm for suish reasons. I'm all dating back to Grantland. It's like It's just bad Stranger Things was bad for us the way the schedule was. If they had spread it out It would have been better for us. So I'm being selfish about it, but I just think the ability to dive into a show every week, wonder what just happened, what's going to happen next is I think that's how people want to watch shows. These networks aren't stupid if they thought There was more money or more interest in it being a week to week. I'm sure they would do it do think it's a little bit of like an us problem where it's like we like to talk about these things. we like to talk about these things episodically. I'm bummed out that the last season of the bear is going now up on like a Thursday night. You know what I mean? I'm bummed out that The bear has been a confusing case the entire run because like its first season was a binge dump But once it was such a huge thing, we were confused every year. Sould have been two week. And well, and FX is like, we've got the numbers that support. This is the model. But like, It's more of an instant gratification versus a long term investment thing. but I'm sure the numbers prove that if you binge drop something You know, you will get more eyeballs on it immediately. But in terms of like building a Widow's Bay audience or building a pit audience, like there's longer term benefits Come Emy season, come all these other things in terms of its endurance. Yeah, it's an us covering shows problem, but I also think it's like an impatience U and that anxiety, that insecurity that a lot of like studios and streamers are experiencing. I only like perficially follow this stuff but I am very much aware that There's usually like a huge flood of shows right around now previous few weeks because people are trying to get in under the Emm' inomination in the summer. And and it to me that's a lot of like U you know, maybe bigger stars doing TV who are like, if I'm doing this, I want to be up for an Emmy. Yeah. Don't put me out in August and have make people try to remember me next spring. Yeah. I don't know if there's that many shows that it came out in the last couple of weeks that I would be like This is so good. I wish it had had a better runway or had a better window, but they were putting out way too much shit in like a six week period. because they're like, we have to get this up to run an FIC campaign to get an Emy nomination to satisfy the talent relations that we have and do whatever. And I do think it's like kind of now blinding people to like be like, it just seems like five shows just pop up on Pacock every week and I don't know what to do about that. And I think that like We five shows where somebody gets kidnapped. Well, or just like do the APO finale, the Hcks finle. There were like a ton of finales But do the HPO thing where you have two shows on at once and you promote them and you like build conversation about them and then hand the baton off to the next two shows. It doesn't make any sense. Because when you're thin about I do think a lot about the FYC stuff. and when you think about they're running, like task is a huge thing they're running and they didn't run that in the classic Emmy' window, you know, but is it week to week built an audience was a huge thing for them Yeah. One other thing with the binge that I think gets lost Be we always talk about how it's bad for us, It's bad for discussing. I also find when you binge a show, I just don't watch it as carefully. Beu especially It's like, oh'll bang out four episodes. like I watch those seasons of the Bear and they all just are kind of lumped together because I don't feel like I watch them the way I would normally watch them if it was just spread out. Yeah. even euphoria, which drove me crazy It was at least once a week and I actually watched it and it was Yeah something that I was concentrating on. If I was trying to binge that That would have been a nightmare. Yeah I remember a beare thing that was jumped out at me was like that first season, you're right. It had almost like a strranger Things kind of thing where it went from like, have you seen the show the bear? I remember you slaggking me you're like, have you seen this bear thing? I like No now I have watched the bear like in in five hours, you know? Yeah. And it was the second season and I think I had screeners so it wasn't like a personal thing, but I remember being like Oh man It sucks that not everyone is going to watch the Christmas dinner episode at the same time. Yeah, you know,. And there's going to be prepackaged articles going out about how did the Bear do that episode? And you're like, I would love for everybody to be like, Ohh, it's Bear night. It's Wednesday night And it's like holy shit, Jamie Lee Ctis and John Bernhaller in this episode like and Bob Odenkirk, like someome of the best shows ever benefited from that more than anything. I mean, thrown certainly Spranos, which U but lost Yeah they about losts now would have been Ten episodes a season. It would have been a bing show And it just like completely different way. Jack says we have to go back It just would have been trapped during the season long binge and everybody would have experienced it at different times and it wouldn't have the impact.inking With the pit, I was thinking so much about this idea of water cooler culture and water cooler conversation and the way in which shows like lost, or the Sopranos or Madmen or whatever, to a lesser degree, like That idea of the water cooler is so rare and it it feels so good people when everyone's watching something together When everyone's watching task and like we can see it with podcast numbers when people are like dialed into a show. and then people want to text me and talkking know, peopleeople want to text me on that night while they're watching it and they're like, holy shit, I can't believe this happened or like, whyy did Robbie do this or you know what's who's the secret wararant on Widows Bay? know that's just That's Bter for our culture. When I was wored for Jimmy S showow came in on the Monday when the Spranos was running And so we all the writers, we'd all get together with Jimmy and we'd try to figure out like act one and we I'll go around the room and pitch bs And During this time, the Soppranos had like It was one of their runs. I can't remember what season And we were just all around the room on the Monday. We would talk about the show for like an hour and a half and we'd have like, no bits. Ivery was like, dn. And it was just like, That's just gone in the bench model. so I don't know. I understand there's reasons why they do it. I'm sure the numbers are just as good, but like I watch DTF Be I had screeners for that DTF St. Louis I watched it the day after New Yearars all at once. I watched like six episodes in one day because I was hung over and I just wanted something to watch And it hit me differently. I think if I had watched it week to week, I would have liked it more But it was like too much all at once. And that's another issue. Some of these shows are like too dense to binge. That's a show that didn't really work for me personally, but Like you respected it. I really and also like is the kind of thing that we should have more of. Now you could say DTF might have been like a good two hour movie and You know, whatever, but I wish more shows had like the sensibility and also like the creative bravery to be like, this is not like every other show ight. The sense of humor is going to be different Performance style is going to be a little bit different tone is going to be different You may or may not love it But it we're going to take a risk with it. And I think that there's a lot of like risk aversion in TV that you can really feel. Yeah. Every show starting with a flash forward and then a six months earlier, is like you guyss like putting the hook at the front of your. Yeah You guys don't trust me to watch the TV show because you gott to show me a dead body in the first five seconds. I know. I know what which show I'm watching. It's presumed innocent. You know, like it's like I assume I've seen the movie. Yeah. And to go back to your your point about how you don't watch binge shows that closely, then we get into that feedback loop that know people have been talking about more and more recently where Um Netflix execs or whoever say you have to repeat things ten times because people are second screening this. They're not paying attention. And so then the shows get worse and so then people want to pay even less attention to them because you're like, oh, I already saw this scene. You keep repeating the same lines over and over again because you think I'm not paying attention and so I won't pay attention. Yeah, sadly, I was laid on the pit and we binged it I really tried to lock in, but I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff. It was fun. It's an amazing week to week experience, but watching it in binge is almost representative of the like the durational quality of the day that they're having on. true. So if you watch like five episodes, you really are like, holy shit,'s been five hours like it did't work, but I still feel like I missed You cught bread at the end, didn't you? I thought you caught up like by the time of the finale. I caught it for you guys. Yeah. Yeah, I made it in time It was good. but I do wonder like The se saaw of the movies versus TV. this is going to be an interesting next couple of years. Sam If I'm a creative person So I want to have a movie and I can get out of it I can just create something from scratch and have people see it and do well and make the next one. Wh do I want to emulate what these other people are doing with these TV shows where it's like I might be locked into this for five, six years of my life By the way, I'm not going to make as much money as I used to back in the day And I actually might have more upside on the movie side. Your brain's going to shift toward the movie making I think. likeike even somebody like the guy in the bear Jerem Allllen White. No the Rator. Christore. he's making a movie next The Bear was amazing for him, right? It's the stepping stone for him to make movies, which is where I think That's where the real money is going to be for them. I hope so, but there's so plenty of movies that come and go and people pay no attention. Sure. But you can at least move on to the next thing when you're doing. Yeah. You do a show. this is You're locked down. L maybe M Goriaers couldn't get after Yeah. Thaty M Jazi's movies kind of flopped. If he had been locked into like, I have to do everyverybody loves Raymond for ten years. He her mom for ten years. Yeah. Although that was like kind of like Maybe that made more sense. I don't know. I mean, I, you know, the differences is like, yeah, Joe's right. likeike there's There's going to be for every Odyssey and backrooms and obsession, there's going to be ten movies bunch of me to know. Yeah. But then some some of them can even do Oh and they end up on like the Amazon on demand You know, the pay perview, the Roku. Do that even exist? I don't know. Fandango universe? It is fun, you know, I'm relelatively new to living in Los Angeles, but having worked with you guys for years and years and years and having listened to Mallory say Every screening of this is sold out and I'm in San Francisco. I'm like not here man. So it's nice to be in this town where people are going to the movies all the time and any time of day that you decide to go to a movies, there' gonna to be other people there. So your role. You're really right though about there's something different like I remember even like last year, with Andor and I was like Me and the ten people I know who are watching Andor are obsessed with this and can't believe this is happening. and then there's like All these people who are like I know I'm going to love it. I I just, you, just on time right now. You know what I mean? But too much because there's too much stuff and it's too much of a commitment to go into any of these shows That was one of things that kept me from the pit for a while. I was like I don't know. I'm busy watching important stuff like terrible NBA game showing ups like this. Yeah But it is a commitment and I found the same thing It would be a funny letter box of like, did I quit this TV show? Where it's like I lasted an episode and a half with that new show on HBO that I just kind of st I also feel like I hear from you more often than not. It was horrible. I watched all of it. Yes. when it comes to TV. Yeah, But that usually that means I had it on as I was doing other stuff U Beef is a good example. So when I sa I watchise of beef, but if you quizz me on it, I'd probably miss like half of the The second season. My myanny nanny stole my dog and turned it into a fighting pit bull. like when you're watching that on Netflix Yeah screen that. Well, and that's that's another thing that's winning right now. It's certainly winning for Netflix is these Th these hour and a half true crime documentaries Crash has been, I think number one on Netflix for like two weeks And I feel like everybody saw it at some point, had an opinion on it. There were other documentaries about it. and From a water cor standpoint, it feels like True crime documentaries are hitting as hard as any TV show. It's really Strange time. Can we talk about our pals at HBO who like HBOFX and Apple are the ones who are like holding it down on the week to week releases despite the bear And who' doing the they release too and then you have to right the minute the half binge sort of thing HriO this year had n in sevent kingdoms, which was great, but that's like their IP Um Euphoria is there, IP to a certain degree, right DTF, which you liked I like but that was My dad would not have made it ten minutes on that show. Like that show had a distinct audience and I'm not sure Middle America It' interesting one, ironically because it was set in middleary.ight. Right Os the Dragon, Lanterns. So and then Harry Potter at the end of the year., you know, off the back of them doing like welcome to Dairry and Dune. so them investing in these like IP shows. Yeah. It seems like they're kind of going a little bit more either big blockbuster stuff or getting into the pitification of other genres. And I'm in I'm here for the pitification of other genres, but like, and the pit, obviously, but like Sious like Where's this years task? or where's, you know, where's like like as long as those guys still make industry or something like it, as long as like there's a show that comes out of nowhere and just kind of like feels like lightning in a bottle and it feels different. industry was great Iustry was great. Thiso iss fantastic. And that's the kind of thing that you really, really need TV feel alive. What's the show you're looking forward to the most Passs the drarying because I get to cover it with Chris Actually the real answer is the vampireless stat on AMC. And that's just my own personal That's rare I don't know. I think lanterns, I'm really excited to see Kalle Chandler and Aaron Pierre show together I'm a big Kelly McDonald fan,'s in excited about that If you knew a super talented twenty five year old who made shit. tell them to go into TV or movies D depends on what kind of shit they want to make, you know there' Little Vince Gilligan then I would say Try to try to pitch your. What would you want them to make? A Again, it depends on the person. it depends on the person the story. We love TVN movies. So like, you know, I wouldn't trade a well made movie for a shitty season of television. I wouldn't trade a well madeade season television. I push mov. O one thing I have learned is that over the last fifteen years is like this will go in some cycle that's way faster than we understand it and whether or not like The kind of TV that we're watching in three or four years feels way more like the kind of TV we were watching in the early two thousands poss. I think people could start being like, there were certain things that people expected. There's a reason why These kids are watching three hundred episodes of Gilmore Girls and not This other show that kind of feels like Gilmore Girls but isn't as well made. R. Like how do we go back to that? but Yeahcon almost have to work. That did happen, by the way. Yeah. Grays's Anatomy and Gilmore Girls for whatever reason friendriends the office, you know. I think the nineties stuff is starting to die according to my daughter Oh Well because we're in the different it's nostalgia It's too far now. The nostalgia cycle is now is now' the odds. Yeah. What's really interesting is that lost hasn't had its real moment again yet. And I I keep waiting for it to happen. It had a mini pek during the pandemic, I would say. but because everyone was at home watching everything. but But yeah, it' it's not it's not in that nostalgia cycle yet You know, because in the nineties we were we were usually twenty years is the nostalgia cycle. So which is twenty right now. twenty thirty likeike I was talking to Yasi about eighties movie soundtracks that she's going to be doing on Bandple We were talking about the big chill and we were talking anotherother time. I didn't get the call from Yasi. And we were talking about she won't intimidated we were talking about we were talking about the big chill. We were talking about diruring dancing and that like fifties nostalgia that diffused the eighties, you know, and how like All we listened to in my house is fifties music in the eighties. Yeah the nineties it was the seventies. Yeah, you know, like Well, the seventies was amazing because like happy days, people going backwards basasically pre Vietnam warar. What did we just talk about that with? What movie was? We talked about it with yeah, we brought it up with something Animal house Oh, because Animal House was set in nineteen sixty two. Yeah. But it's so weird that that never really happened for nineties I don't know. Oh, it did. I mean, I feel like theight nostalgia has been a real like I not not like we never had our happy days like Sata on I mean Everything from the love story show to. the way that like Ge cuts came back the way like The ninety four is the closest that we had Also, there's like, I can name a hundred bands that sound basically like yeah, obscure bands from the nineties but are now like much bigger. It's crazy. I was in New York a couple years ago and a friend of mine said, she's like, oh, nineties fashionist is back. I was like, yeah, kind of. And then four girls walked past us, like teenage girls. dressed exactly like they walked out of my so called life. like exactly, just like the flannels in the docks and it was just like all there and I was like, never mind My daughter's bigg on this. Yeah. She thought loveo Story just fucking nailed it. She's like all this stuff you could wear now. She was all excited about it. Love Story is a good success story. I wonder if we're gonna to get more of those too, like the real life stuff with the twist. We watched when my daughter' home, we watched the entire OJ showh that they did ten years ago. That OJ show Fantastic. Brian Murphy OJ showow. Oh it was great. I forgot how awesome the actors were the same people on loveove story. Calson's like out of control. Courtney Vvanceces is out of control. like there's like Joh K Brown. G Sterlin Brown Travolta, Travolting Travolta, Trevolta. Cube goodoodding is really good. Yeah. I emailed Rob Mill Swimmer. I texted Rob Millson Hulu and I was like, you guys You know, we're It's almost OJ time. It's june twelfth You guys should put this on the main page becauseuse my daughter didn't know anything. they put it on the m main page with O It's OJ's OJ season. No, but my daughter didn't know anything and she like couldn't believe it as she didn't know the car chase happened. Yeah And he's and she's like, I remember that happening when it came out and we were covering and I was just like, You had to write explainer posts. You know, this iss like what happened with the crown where it' just sort of like the Diana season of the crown. Yeah, don't spoil the crrown. It don'toil the crown. Don't spoil the OJ show. D don't spil what Whether the planes crashes in love story. Now another thing that's going on now is we have so much good content from the last twenty five years that you can just repurpose the content and pretend it's new. And somebody like my daughter would have no idea. What's the true crime story that you would want to tell? in a sorry hasashed? Yeah You know what? the T Nine and Dak was pretty good. It was too long or the show was too long. was the Versace one I thought was good. It was just like too many episodes I don't know, man. I the further we get away from that thrones brereaking bad Um What else was in that Madad Madan. Yeah both there was a fourth one. Sopranos It was spread w over in zero six. No, that was two thousands. We had that run bit when we were at Grantland where we just had all those sh. I mean same. You could go down the list. Americans justify like, yeah, I mean, there was tons of tons of stuff Join Robson,s, Chris Ran. thans. Thankks for. Thank one All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Chris Ryan and Jordan Robinson. Thanks to Eduardo and Chris and Jack Wilson and everybody on the Spotify and Ringer side I'm not sure if I'm going to be back on this feed this week, but you know where I'm going to be. We have a reatchabableless mail bag that's coming on Thursday. So stay tuned for that. it is in the bag that is coming. And then our next Um Three movies Because we are doing from Hell mononth and the first one's going to be on Monday hand that no, single white female on Monday then hand that rocks the crradle the next week and then the good sun All those movies are on Netflix if you want to watch those So I will see you again on this feed. Um maybe Maybe Sunday night Maybe earlier I don't know, but I'll see you soon So twenty one plus in presresident select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen plus in presresident in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. First online real money wage are only a minimum five dollarars wager required for seven consecutive days. 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