Final Ratings and Closing Thoughts

This episode is brought to you by the London Review of Books. And now we are certainly not shy of digging into things on the book club, whether that is why it is that a classic novel endures or why more contemporary novels manage to capture a particular zeitgeist or mood. So the London Review of Books, an absolutely brilliant periodical, by the way, operates on much the same principlple Each issue is an archive of long form essays, poetry, cultural criticism, and of course the famed book reviews. In an age of clipped opinions and half baked insights, the LRB is the outlier. It's a trustworthy source that prioritises the thinking the word count. So try three months of the London Review of books completely free when you sign up today. Subscribe now at lRbot me forward slash bookclub. So that is lRb dot mE forward slash book cllub to try three months of the London Review of books for free Hey parents How do you make smarter choices for your kids' college today? That's where Sally can help With Sally, you can find scholarships, funding options, tools, and guidance all in one place And if you need a loan, Sally has options for different families and different situations College is only worth it if you do it right So don't just help your kid go Help them go smarter Sally d. com slash go parents Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. 'Twas a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feasted An offer you can feast on. seell your car today on Carmana Pick up these Mfly and bubbly as ever, Effie Trinket drops to the podium and gives her signature. Happy youngger games and may the odds be ever in your favour. Her pink hair must be a wig because her curls have shifted slightly off center since her encounter with Haymichch. It's time for the drawing Effie Trinket says as she always does. Ladies first and crosses to the glass ball with the girls' names. She reaches in digakes her hand deep in the ball and pulls out a slip of paper. crowd draws in a collective breath. and then you can hear a pin drop and then feeling nauseous and so desperately hoping that it's not me, that it's not me, that it's not me Effiey Trinket crosses back to the podium Smooths the slip of paper and reads out the name in a clear voice And it's not me. It's Primrose Everdeen This strangled cry comes out of my throat and my muscles begin to move again I don't need to shutve through the crowd The other kids make way immediately allowing me a straight path to the stage I reach her just as she is about to mount the steps. With one sweep of my arm, I push her behind me The tear, I gasp I volunteer his tribute So Welcome to the book Club And that was, of course from the young adult dystopian thriller The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins And that was published in two thousand eight, and it's the first in the three book trilogy And I mean, it's been a massive, massive success. It's sold over one hundred million copies Obviously, it was a huge fan hit almost instantaneously after its publication and it remains one of the best selling ebooks. of all time And then of course, it was turned into kind of cultural phenomenon thanks to the twenty twelve movie starring Jennifer Lawrence and Josh Hutchison, which grossed over six hundred ninety four million dollars worldwide. And we'll be discussing the movie a bit later on because I know that you and I don't agree when it comes to it And there's so much from the books, particularly, I think, with kind of younger audiences that have become almost You know, they've kind of entered mainstream culture. So there's the three note whistle from the movies, the Nice whisle. And then there's the Mocking Jay salute Do you know what the Mck and J salute is I'd love to say. Is that the thing where they had the three fingers up Yeah, that. So Tabby and I are both doing that for people who are not watching And then of course, there's the famous phrase, may the odds be ever in your favour. So Dominant, this is obviously your first time reading the Hunger Games It's generally has a more teenage following perfectly suited to you. What was your take So good question. So it's funny doing this show because we've done some absolute canonical classics sem. We've done some quite serious highbrow stuff. So we've done Mrs. Dalloway or we've done Weethering Heights or the Great Gatsby or whatever.. it's also fun to dip our toes into more, shall we say murkier waters I have to say I did enjoy this book. I really enjoyed reading it. I was reading it on holiday and I think I texted you and Nicole when I was on holiday to say, I was riveted. I was genuinely riveted, sort of sitting outside in the sun Interested to find out What happened next? And I think that's obviously one of the that's one of the great elements of reading when you first start as a child. This book is aimed at younger readers and the desire to find out what happens next in the story ulsive element of any reading experience. So with this, I thought that element of it, as we'll discuss, is very well done. I think there are lots of interesting things in the book that tie it to social concerns and sort of political concerns in the two thousands and twenty ten s, which is when it became a massive phenomenon And I think there's a lot more to unpick than some listeners may suspect But I know Tabby The unpicking may be difficult for you because you love this. It's a massive part of your identity, isn't it? The hunger Games You see yourself very much as the Ey trinket charriacter? On this podcast, I'm definitely the Cesar Flickerman of the book club. I actually this was my first time reading it because it was obviously a really big deal for you know, a lot of my age group when I was at school. But I didn't read the first book. I only read the second and the third because I watched the movie. beforehand and I loved the movie. so I mean shhamefully I was kind of like, oh sort of why bother? And then I read the second and third because the second and third movies hadn't come out. Right And so reading it this time, I thoroughly enjoyed it. You know, you spoke about the thrillingness of waiting to discover what happens, which You know, one often doesn't recapture in quite the way the same way from childhood from the books that you read as a child. And I felt like that again. I felt like I was desperate to find out what happened. So I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. But should we get into the plot now a little bit Yeah, so let's give it a bit of the setting. So for people who don't know, I'm guessing there's loads of people who are listening to this podcast who are slightly quizzical about the choice of book Yeah I don't know anything about the background. So The background, we're in a post apocalyptic North America, aren't we Hanem and the backstory is revealed to us during the narrative. So Taby, since you're so invested in this world, explain to us the thrilling backstory. So as you say, we're in Panem and we find out that there was a civil war seventy four years earlier, seventy four, that's why this is the seventy fourth Hunker Games That's when these thirteen districts rose up against the totalitarian government of Panem. And then once the rebellion was kind of put down by this government, which is centered in the capitol. And the capital is somewhere in Colorado, is that right? It's sort of in the rock is. Exactly. it's something like that. And Katnis kind of says at one point this was formerly America. Yeah. They introduced this thing called the hunger Games as a way to kind of exert their authority over the districts as a way to kind of keep the residents of the capital itself are who live in luxury, they're very wealthy They have everything they could possibly desire while the districts are very, very poor. And the districts, every single district, there are only twelve left They have commodity that they provide. So Katnus's district, District twelve provides coal to the capital. And so while their resources are very limited, the capital is prosperous, wealthy and kind of has bizarre costumes, bizarre outfits. very kind of space AG And then every year since the rebellion, because of the hunger games, every district has to provide one girl and one boy between the ages of twelve and eighteen to compete And these are the tributes and they have to fight to the death in challenging environments that kind of vary from year to year in front of the whole of Panem. So Panem watches this. E is filmed on cameras. So it's basically a bloody brutal TV show and It is an enduring testament to the triumph of the capitol over the rebellious districts. Yeah. so you've got a couple of elements there that we'll come back to. So one it's the idea of sending these kind of youths as tributees And the other is the idea of everything being filmed and it being this sort of ghastly reality TV show. And an narrator is so this obviously is the character that you would have empathized with when you read it, I guess O when you saw the film. This is Katniss Edeen, isn't it? So played Jennifer Lawrence in the film. She's sixteen years old She is as is always the way in these things, she's the ultimate underdog She lives in the poorest part of district twelve, which is coal mining. So it's kind of their Appalachian coal miners or something. as is always the way, rather like the character that we talked about in the Court of Thorns and Roses She's lost one of her parents, in this case, her father, who was blown up. He was a coal miner. He was blown up in a mine She lives with her mother who is just useless and is very depressed and feels sorry for herself. and with her sister, who in this case is not a horrible sister, as they often are in sort of fairy tales and things. She's just a little bit sort of soft Catnness is very hard. and Katnness has grown up in poverty Um, and she's been are hunting to get food for the for her family, which is obviously going to stand here in good stead. And basically The reason that she thinks she'll be chosen for the hunger games And we're led to believe as the reader that she will probably be chosen, is that you can basically enter your name multiple times in return for food Right? Resources basically. Yeah resesources. You get more food if you enter your name multiple times That reading that you did That moment is called the reaping And this happens every year. The authorities arrive in the persona of this sort of Margaret Thatcher style effy trinket Yeah, well Margaret Thatcher dressed up as Lady Garaga, which is like a mind exploding crossover. and Shock horror Instead of reading out Katniss's name as we think she probably will, because obviously we know Katniss is going to be in the hunger games because that's the title of the book pulls out the name of Katnis' soft younger sister. Frim Rse But then what happens is Catnus volunteers to swap places, which you're allowed to do Which is a bit of a twist. Yeah, but it's very unusual Right, never normally happens. Yeah, most people kind of fighting to survive in these very, very poor environments you know, they're in it to look after their own skin. to to willingly put yourself in the firing line is Unthinkable It's a sign of her essential heroism, isn't it? And her goodness that she's self sacrificial in that way. The bloke is chosen so it's going to be a girl and a boy and the bloke is called Peter Mellark, and you flipping love him, don't you Tab? Yeah. I mean, we'll get into this later, but he's played by Josh Hutchson in the movie They don't really know each other, He and Katnis He is just randomly chosen. no one volunteers and then the two of them are sent off to the capitol As we've said, the capapitol is like night and day to the districts. They live in great splendor great luxury, very kind of overtly glamorous, lots of food. and they have a mentor with them, a guy called Hainnich, who are producing Nicole is a massive fan of. He's a former winner. He's a former winner because what happens is that if you have won the Duna games, District twelve being so poor has only ever had one victor. You you know help and train up the new volunteers. So Kat is Peter. Peter Hayich and Effie go off to the capapitol. and when they arrive in the capitol, this is when the kind of reality TV element of it really kicks in. They arrive to cheering crowds, they are buffed, polished, plucked, so that they are made more attractive. There's this opening ceremony, which in the movie I loved where they ride out and they're all set al light and they have a team of stylists and like a PR team basically. It's like running for a campaign in many ways and Katniss manages to win over hearts and minds of the denizens of the Capitol because she has a lot of talent with a bow She has these incredible flaming outfits, but also Pizza tends to have been in love with her forever and they create this kind of ruse of being star cross lovers who you may ultimately have to kill each other to survive. From the very beginning, there's an ambiguity. is Peter just saying that to win over the crowds Or has he really had a crush on her since as a little boy? Exactly So then they enter the arena. And this is when the brutality and the violence just kicks in because they and the other contestants have to you know, survive, but not only survive, they have to kill each other to survive, they have to survive against the really challenging brutal conditions of the arena itself. And, you know, whether they survive or not We will not be revealing or the way in which the plot unfold. The plot unfold. You're desperate not to give the ending away, but let's be frank. This is a book for teenagers. And if they die after five minutes in the arena, it would be a very short book. Yeah, there is a twist for sure And it's very bloody and brutal. But who is the woman behind all this? This is Suzanne Collins. So Tabby, tell us about Suzanne Collins. So she's from Connecticut, Isn't she born in nineteen sixty two But it's her father who's the big influence on the book, right? Yeah, so he was in the US Air Force and served in Vietnam and Korea. And so as a child, she was constantly moving about. And she said in interviews that the experience of watching footage of the Vietnam War on TV and knowing that her father was there had a big impact on kind of her portrayal of war, the idea of broadcasting war and violence on TV in the book Th she graduated from Indiana University with a degree in theatater and telecommunications. And then she started working as a TV writer But she also started publishing children's books in two thousand three, and then she started work on the Hunger Games in two thousand seven So you can see how it's a book of its time for a couple of reasons. One You know, she's been working in TV And this is the point at which reality TV is becoming a thing. So the early two thousands, you have shows like, I don't know, the Apprentice, obviously very famously, had great political consequences or the son of quiz shows or son of the Love Island type shows. American Iidol, the kind of pop idol school of Simon Cowal stuff. So these are shows that are There's always an element of scripting in them and an element of sort of the characters pl Well the characters, the contestants playing ap part as they do in the hunger games So you can see how all that is absolutely reflected in her idea, but also You know, if you think was when she growing up, you know, nineteen eighties, nineteen nineties two thousands A time when war and fighting is in your home on the screen as never before. Be Vietnam, as you said, was pretty much the first TV war footage of things like the TEet offensive in nineteen sixty eight That's on the evening newews in American household. She would undoubtedly remember that from when she was a child And then of course, you have the first Gulf for in nineteen ninety one And then you have footage from Afghanistan and Iraq in the early two thousands when she is coming up with the idea of the book. And that's a big part of it, isn't it? It's the sort of juxtaposition of those two things. On the one hand something like the apprentice, where there can only be one winner And know, the contestants will sort of form alliances and friendships and things, but then eventually they'll have to turn on each other and eventually they'll be the last man or woman standing who gets the prize And then on the same It might be on the same channel you know, or if you're channel serfving a different channel scenes from you know Iraq or something where the camera, there might be an embedded news reporter who's following a particular group of soldiers And again, you get to know them as characters And that's basically the genesis of this idea, isn't it? Isn't that what she says? Yeah, so she said that she got the idea. I mean, wonder how I did wonder how much of this is kind of contrived you, after the fact, but she said that she got the idea. She said I was channel surfing between reality TV programming and actual war coverage when Katniss's story came to me One night, I'm sitting there flipping around, and on one channel, there's a group of young people competing for, I don't know, money maybe. And on the next there's a group of young people fighting an actual war. So this would have been the Iraq War and I was tired and the lines began to blur in this very unsettling way. and I thought of this story. And I always thought this concept of the Hunker games. I genuinely thought it was brilliant. I thought there was something very original about it. Obviously it's a dyopia of you dystopias are by the very nature of unorriginal in order to fit within those parameters. But I thought the idea of glitzy reality TV show and how the violence fit into that and how it's kind of young people fighting one another to survive, but it's also kind of Big brrother in Love Island. I wass like, that's really interesting, That's really novel. But it turns out that there are literary precedents you know, similar concepts, which I didn't know about and I was surprised to come across. So first of all, they're Stehen King He's had a massive massive influence. So more specifically, his book's The Long Walk, which he wrote in nineteen seventy nine. And this is a dystopian UessA in which a totalitarian regime has seized power contestants There are these contestants and they must compete in a walking contest every year And then there's The Running Man, which was written in nineteen eighty two. I think there was a movie of it that came out lastust. I think it was Tabbot It's a G great film. Arnold Schwarzegger film. No God, granddad. There was a movie that came out last year Come on. I mean I can't believe you're tissing the Arnish Schwarzniggger. I don't know Arn Swarziggger is, I mean who cares? Get her off the bodcast. Get her off the show. Istled. Okay. so there's the Running man, which he wrote in nineteen eighty two And this introduces the idea of it being like a TV show, the reality TV element. So again, a dystopian USA, and the protagonist must compete in a reality TV show in which the contestants must constantly evade Hitman sent to murder them And again, you know, you mentioned kind of the sixties, seventies, Vinam, et cetera. This is the backdrop against which Stephen King is writing it So there's the Kent state shootings. looads of protesters and all of this is being televised for the first time. It's the first time people have seen police violence On the screen. Yeah. but also around the same time, you're starting to get these reality TV police dramas where I don't know, you follow like the LAPD for a day or whatever. So it's a weird mishmash. So in nineteen sixty eight, I think, it might have been nineteen sixty nine, there was a drama on the BBC called The Year of the Sex Olympics. I was anticipating reality TV. It was basically a brave New World style drama. Yeah. It was written by a guy called Nigel Neil. He was a big science fiction writer at the fifties and sixties for TV And it's about a world in which the population are kept down by being fed endless pornography on their screens So this is quite a groundbreaking and daring show for the BBC to be putting out in the late sixties. And basically they discover that people are bored They're completely desensitized. They've seen so much of it. And So cuts a very long storyort. they end up by basically U having a camera following a particular family who' been isolated in a house, and then the producers decide that it's a little bit boring and they introduce a kind of a maniac or something And then there's loads of violence. and the climax of the play is people start killing each other and the audience love it and the producers realize They have hit the absolute bottom, as it were, because they can show death, they can show killing, and the audience will really, really enjoy it And that obviously is part of this sort of continuum of I don't think these things are necessarily all inspired by each other, but obviously people are responding to the circumstance of the sixties and seventies and they're thinking You know, you can put anything on screen and people will love it. Yeah, for the first time, you can atly tap into this kind of perversive human enjoyment of other people's pain or humiliation, certainly. And also, I mean, that's not like an entirely novel concept. I we'll be talking about the Roman Empire in a bit. The idea of like putting violence in front of people to keep them happy and like sated and calm, I mean It it's not entirely original. It's not without precedent anyway. But then there's another book in particular which The Hunger Games has actually been accused of being a rip off of and actually like there's been accusations of plagiarism and stuff. And this is Battle Royale, which was written in nineteen ninety nine by Kushin Takami. And it's a dystopian horror novel in which high school students are forced to fight to the death by a totalitarian Japanese government He was inspired by kind of the political context of the sixties in Japan, so these student revolutionaries and stuff like that. you can see and the Hunger Games becomes increasingly kind of political as it goes on So she's acknowledged the parallels, but she's also said that I've never even read this book and that her publishers actually warned her off it because which I actually I totally understand because she doesn't want her world and her imagination to be coloud by you know a similar world I know there's some people who say they're too similar. they're disturbingly similar or whatever. I don't necessarily agree with that. Ientant Tarantino among them Crenton Tarantino exactly said, oh it's basically a straight ri off. I'm not sure that's right actually. I think the idea is quite a widespread one Clearly, the idea that we will one day reach a dystopian point where sort of people will be watching extreme violence or indeed sex or whatever on TV and it'll be state sponsored and it'll be real people killing each other or whatever for our entertainment That idea I mean, it's an idea that you see and I don't know doctor Who or something in the eighties and you know, in the two thousands and stuff. It's at the top of people's minds. I mean, as the world changes, you know, that art often reflects those ideas. I mean, the rise of TV and reality TV and stuff, I mean, I think it's crazy to be, you know, as Tarantino says you know, it's a total rip offff. I can't believe that you know, he didn't sue Suzanne Collins, et cetera, et cetera. It's full of it's full of so many other influencers as well. I mean, obviously, dystopiia U it's teen, you know, it's full of romance and that kind of thing. All books are a little bit derivative. It's a bit of a high school drama, isn't it? Definitely. as we'll talk about in a bit. It's no more like you know plagiarized from Battle Royale than say, a Ct of Thorns and Roses is Lord of the Rings or whatever. it's just. Okay it's a premise, right Well actually, should we get into some of the deeper influences behind this. So obviously, it reflects reality TV, it reflects a kind of gamification of culture, you know, the idea of different levels, the idea of new villains being introduced, all of that sort of thing that comes from video games. But there's classical stuff behind this as well. So that's the first thing that struck me as a reader is that this is obviously inspired by one of the most famous One of the most celebrated Greek myths, actually the Greek myth that I loved most when I was about five or six, which is Theseus and the mininotaur So What's the story here becausecause you did classics, didn't you? you're the great classical expert, Tabby. So according to the myth, so Thesees and the Motaur, The Motaurus is horrifying monster with the body of a man and the head of a bull. And we will actually be coming back to this myth in a big way in June when we do Cerse by Madeeline Miller. as part of our Odyssey special And he was the spawn, the minus was the spawn of purportedly kind of a demigod Pacife and she had sex with a beautiful bull gifted to the King of Crete by Poseidon So this creates this terrifying monster. and they put the Mal in the bowels of Crete and they build a massive labyrinth around him to keep him contained But After this, Athens following a war in which it lost to Crete as kind of recompense. It has to send seven youths and seven maidens to Crete every nine years to feed the minor all. And this is like symbolic of Athens' disobedience, you know, as it is with the capitol and the districts. Yeah, there's objection to Gce. So it's exactly the same thing as in the Hunger Games. Exactly the same premise And then Theseus, who turns out to be kind of a prince of Athens, he decides to put an end to this. And so he goes as one of the seven youths to Crete, know with the intention of killing the mininotaur and he's sent into the maze and he does. He kills the mininotaur H comes out, he survives with the help of Ariadne, the princess of Creed, in a sense. And a load of string, surely. Yeah, and a ball of string, exactly. So he is the catnist figure in this. But Suzan Collins didn't want to do the labyrinth, right? She didn't want to do the labyrinth and she didn't want to do mine at all So she took another element of classical civilization for when they get to arena And this is well it's the idea of the arena, I guess. It's the idea of gladiatorial games. The ammphitheatater, yeah. So I mean, this is one of the most emblematic elements of Roman civilization, it's the plot of Gladiator. It's the thing that fascinates children when they first fall in love with Rome, isn't it? The idea of gladatorial games you know, fought out for the pleasure of the crowds. And also bread and circuses, you know, it's a way to keep the population happy as it is in Panem. Panem, the word for this world Suusanne Collins took it from the saying by Juvenile, the Roman satirist that gives us the expression know Panem means bread. it's the expression that gives us bread and circuses. And there's this idea which I think is actually historically completely acccurate this idea that the games that the gladiatorial combat was woven into the kind of political structure of Rome, that staging games If the game started, historians still argue about why the game started. But they started, let's say the third century BC, and they're a way for powerful, ambitious Romans T proclaim their status to win over the crowds. They would stage these extremely elaborate games, which kind of probably began as funeral games. And then they become institutionalized. so when the empire comes along under Octavian and then Tiberius and so on and so on The emperors seize control of the games, they make them state sponsored You know, are they arere an important part of the imperial cult and they're important part of you know, they're a statement of authority and of power. And the people who are fighting in the games are trained gladiators. They are slaves They are the lowest, the low, but also they fascinate the crowds. They're celebrities and totally stregs at the same time which is exactly the same as the tributes. They are essentially slaves to the capapitol who get raised up and put on pedestals and made celebrities themselves, even though know you forget that the thing that they're made celebrities for is basically death as with the Gladiators anders And also I mean, the names of many of the characters in the Hunger Games bear Roman influences. you have Octavia, Cato Sinner, Caesar, all of this. One thing that slightly surprised me knowing that they had Roman names. I assumed that that meant the characters were based on Roman models and that's not right. No, it's random. It's totally random. So the character Cato, who we'll touch on later, bears absolutely no resemblance to the Roman statesman Cato. It's totally random. But then also you know stuff like the way they lived, they these You know, they live in finery. It's kind of the idea of like the Babylonian Roman Empire if you see what I mean? as it's all like finery, grand parties, feasts. They have this drink that makes them vomit after they eat you know, so that they can eat more. so it's like a vomatorium And also the idea of kind of patricians handing out patronage to the tributes, you know because they can sponsor them in the arena. if they like them, if they kind of catch their eye. So it's sort of like, I suppose what you would say is if and I don't mean this harshly. I know it' come over that I'm being sneerary and harsh, but I don't mean it this way. It's basically a very, very simplified comic book version of Rome. So it's basically people in togres reclining on couches, drinking till they're sick mad elaborate hair and sort of purple clothes while below them. eying up oiled up gladiators. oiled up slaves who are killing each other for their edification down below. and of course We find that idea simultaneously repellent but also very alluring, which is why there are so many dramas about sters and gladiators and all of this kind of thing. Because there's a little bit of us in those people who are with the mad hair and Margaret Thatcher's voice who are watching the slaves killing each other. Yeah, definitely. So that's one influence. And what about the dystopian element? So the dystopian element Obviously dystopia you can see why that would appeal to teenage readers. They're always fascinated by sort of dark versions of our own world, which is what dystopia always are. They're always reflecting anxieties of the day I would say personally, and maybe this is me being critical against Abby because I didn't read it as a teenager and fall in love with it, I would say the dystopia is a little bit underpowered. but compared with some of the things we've talked about on this show. so when we did our very early episodes W the rest is history we did Gillad, the dystopia and the Hmaid's tale Well we've talked about, for example, the dystopia in nineteen eighty four, George Orwell's book Hann in by comparison is retty sort of thin and generic, wouldould you say? Is that am I being harsh? The thing is that element of it, the world, the dystopia, the repression of the regime, that comes out much, much more in the later books. L it's not a massive part of the hunger games. The hunger games, it's all about kind of the games itself, not about the kind of wider connotations in the world in which it exists And I think that's in part because it's a team book. It's not really about the ideology of a dystopia or anything like that. It's kind of about the characters and the dynamics between them So I think that is bad, but it is distinctly to me, a dystopia. You know, it's post apocalyptic. people living, you know, in kind of like a numb state of kind of obsequiousness to the regime. It's a dystopia in this regard that I would say that all the things that you would see as devices of Panem and that world are our own vices. So The idea of an increase in the authoritarian government, the idea of surveillance, the idea that people are seduced into acquiescence by the bread and circuses of TV in particular. When did this come out? two thousand seven, two thousand eight thousand eight, I think. Just before the smartphone conquered everything and destroyed all culture You know, that they're fascinated by TV and they're all watching on TV. they're not watching on their phes, they're not watching shorts, they're not watching social media clips. So in that sense, you could argue it's quite a dated dystopia dystopia that belongs to a very particular moment of the two thousands. If you're writing it now you'd write it differently, wouldn't you? There wouldd be a much bigger social media element and they'd be messaging each other and there'd be Do you not think that would be part of it? I do. mean But then I suppose a dystopia, it can be whatever as in it could be now, but the state could say that there are no phones allowed, so they control what screens you watch and stuff There's the propaganda element is very nineteen eighty four Yeah. fununnily enough, the way that it's kind of projected into people's homes and their private lives and things like that. because you're not really given the opportunity not to watch the games, is that right? You you're forced to Eactly. But I would say that The contestants in this, the way that the tributes have to live both simultaneously private life and a public profile and play up to that public profile. And it's all about kind of glamour and presenting an idealised version of themselves in order to win over the crowds who will you know, support them and back them and give them things. That's very kind of influences, isn't it? Like you don't know what's going on behind the clip that you get to watch. Yeah, And I suppose you could argue that that's always been an element of celebrity generally, like you don't know what the You never knew what the private life of a Hollywood film star from the Glden age of betweenet the Wars was. but It became much more obvious and much more widely discussed once you had reality TV stars, peopleople who were famous just for being famous because they've been on TV, who are presenting a very manicured image It's funny because Th about are you in love or aren't you in love? O is it all just done for the cameras? which is a big part of this story because it's a huge element of the relationship between Katnis And Peter That's something we're so familiar with now In the last few years, really because of shows like Love Island where people have to basically I've actually never seen Love Island, but people are basically Coppping off with each other, but also kind of pretending to be in love to win over the audience, is that right? Yeah, but I think that trend started in the two thousands, you know, with like the Justin Timberlakes and Britney Spears, you know the idea of a showomance. Yeah I was obviously following that really closely at the time More closely than me, I suspect. The other thing that it bears the influence of is sci fi, you know, advanced technology, hovercrafts, futuristic setting, etcetera, etcetera. Genetic mutations. Yeah. again I would say again, if I was being critical, those are just generic elements kind of thrown in. like we're throwing some genetic mutations. They've got harvver crafts. See, I think the genetic mutations are quite effective. was thought that was kind of the most disturbing part of it. Yeah. But I do see what you mean as in the sci fi, the dystopia is a little bit like what The myth of the vampire is to twilight, you know it's a setting in which to set what is kind of a teen drama. but that sounds very kind of patronising. It's also a thrilling read. And I really bought into the world and I found that I really bought into the games as well. Okay Szanne Collins is not overthinking it. That's fair? No I would say I wouldd say that it's like, you know, she's picking little bits out of quite obvious, you know, cultural touchstones and putting them in. Exactly. Act not unlike JK. Rowing in Harry Potter. A few years earlier. See, I think Joie Rowan goes deeper the world is much richer and I know listen It would be the end of the podcast, undoubtedly, if I was ever to say anything bad about the world of Harry Potter at all, because I know I know. You do How much you value it, Tuby, And I wouldn't dare to ever criticize the world building of Hogsmead or whatever. Yeah, this is how I feel about you and the archers. donon't touch that Leave the arch Christina here. You scream archers. You have such archers energy. Anyway that' bonkers from you. That' Absolly That is bonkers. Jesus Christ, how would you think I'm a hundred? I. Right. There's one more element now actually have to be fair to you. You have made one good point in your notes which is O Lord of the Flies So there's a definite Lord of the flies elements to this, right Yeah, very much. so. So this is William Golding's nineteen fifty four novel and this is, you, it's very, very well known about a group of school children. their'ir plane crashes, they're left on the island to survive, they initially kind of tried to build a republic and work together and they very quickly turn on each other. they start killing each other, they start hunting each other. And so it's kind of an exploration of A the loss of innocence Yeah and also kind of the beast within. It's like digression, It's like Darwinian digression. How beneath the surface of our society and our traditions and our rituals, we're all just animals that when it comes down to it, we will kill each other to survive. Lord of the Flies, I do think is an influence on this and it was in my mind the whole time Because the idea that you put all these children because they are children. I mean, you know they're fifteen, sixteen, a lot of them. One of the contestants is twelve. Exactly, that you dump them in this place and they will all just kill each other. I mean, this is an interesting thing about the book The difference between Lord of the Flies is basically in Lord of the Flies to the children when they start. I think they're on like a school trip, aren't they? They're a sort of school choir or something, I think. So they're all very properly brought up little English school boys who then discover Down that they have this savagery within them And this is one of the shocking elements. In the Hunger games, some of them are savaged from the very beginning because they've been trained to be killers. The thing that's surprising to me is none of them ever rebel against the idea of the games or of killing When they're dropped into the arena Most of them rush to kill the others or to run away and to plot how they will kill the others. No but none of them ever throws up their hands and says I hate violence, I hate killing, I can't do this, all of that kind of thing. I guess this is the seventy fourth games, right? Like the horror of that very first games might have been slightly different. There is a moment when Katnness kind of reflects on the fact that, you know she shoots this guy instinctively with her bone arrow and she's like, God, this isn't like killing know a deer in the woods or something. that was a human But I also think the way that the richer districts turn it into know something that's really eminent and you train to fight and you train to kill. It's a sign of kind of the success of the regime Yeah because it's of your humanity and your sense of what is acceptable and what's not, what's heous and what's not So after a while, a bit like, say the gladiatorial games, obviously that was a different time. violence was more prominent anyway, but You know, it genuinely does become great viewing. It genuinely becomes kind of a celebration. And I guess if you've grown up in that world, a world in which every single year you're used to seeing your neighbourors, whatever it may be die. You would become a gin know Sy numb to it. But shall we take a break and then after the break we'll get into the games themselves. We talk about the characters and how they fare. exciting. I'm Manning. I'madisoninner, I'mv Yov. I'm D Coria Mooore. want to train like a Red Bull athlete. Tell us your fitness goals this summer to enter the Red Bowull Athlete challenge. You'll get to try each of our workouts for a chance to win an ultimate Red Bowl experience. Think you have what it takes So good, so good New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to sixty percent off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack Take your flexibility beyond the mat PayPal. Pay nothing at checkout. Then enjoy a flexible monthly payment plan that works for you. withith no sign up or late fees. Find yours then, and an easy way to pay. With PayPal. Dload the PayPal app to get started. sububject to approval. pay mononthly consonsumer loans made by Webank. available through PayPaling N ML S nine one zero four fivety seven. Lear more at payPal d. com slash pay monthly. I lift my chin and stand as straight as I can. the cylinder begins to rise For maybe fifteen seconds, I'm in darkness And then I can feel the metal plate pushing me out of the cylinder into the open air For a moment, my eyes are dazzled by the bright sunlight. And I'm conscious only of a strong wind with the hopeful smell of pine trees Then I hear the legendary announcer Claudius Templplemith at his voice. Boms all around me. Ladies and gentlemen, let the seventy fourth Hunger Games begin. Welcome back to the book club everyone. know Domin I think that we had some disagreements in the first half, but I have to say that was excellent. Goodbye. Oh, that's nice. It's lovely when we can disagree agreeably in that way. Yeah Yeah, exactly. It's nice to follow a precedent. So we promised you before the break that we'd be getting into the Hunger games itself and some of the major players. So before we get to the two characters that are really at the heart of everything Let's just quickly go through some of the kind of secondary characters. So I think for people that have watched the movie, kind of the shadow that hangs over Panem is this guy President Snow. He's played by Donald Sutherland very well, I think, in the film. And he is kind of like the autocrat at the heart of this totalitarian regime. He's very neat, very elegant a small white man who wears roses in his buttonhole. You know, actually he barely features in this book. In the book he's completely he's almost totally absent. I think he has one line. Right. He's referred to maybe twice.'s That's the difference between the book and the film. The film, theyviously decided they need to create an antagonist. They were conscious of it as a franchise. But in the book, his might as well not be there, frankly. And that's, I think a strength of the book, because it's so narrowly focused. Totally onn the drama of the games rather than the wider political consequences. But you know, I think a lot of these kind of books, these series that start with a narrow focus. I often think it was true of the Maz Runner books as well, which are also teen dystopia You start with a lovely kind of neat, well thought out, well fleshed out kind of world or moment or storyline. and then they get a bit kind of messy and out of control as the books proceed. And I think that's slightly true for Hunker Games. And then we've got Rue and Kato, they're kind of the opposite sides of what contestants might be, what the tributes could be. Kato, as we've said, is kind of like a weapon bred district two to win the games Rue is a twelve year old girl and she exemplifies kind of the tragedy of when the odds do not go in your favor. Katniss takes her under her wing And it's the tragedy of Rue's fate that kind of sparks the flame of rebellion in Katnis. Y And then we have Haymichch and Effy Ey the Margaret Thatcher, Lady Gara crossrossover And then there's Haymt, who's, you know, weentioned Boody Harrelson, the drunk. And so they are basically the sort of mentors for Katis and for Peter who's her fellow contestant from her district. We're suspicious to them at first. We think he's a drunk and she's just a sort of vapid waste of space. But actually they both turn out to be, you know, they're all right, aren't they? They are. I mean, they't go overboard They're fine The whole thing is narrated by Katmis in the present tense, Yeah, it's through her narrative voice. Writing it in the first person like that builds suspense very well. I run, I sit, I watch, you know, Yeah. And can I say I know we're not talking about the film just yet, so I'm speaking out of order But I think the film suffers by comparison because the film does cut to scenes in which Katniss is not involved. Whereas the book, we see everything through Katniss's eyes and it creates there's a sense as always with first person narration, there's a sense of you're walking in her shoes. There's an interiority to it, admittedly s quite a thin one because she's not a brilliant nrator. but There is a kind of claustrophobia to her experience which is quite addictive as a reader. and you don't quite get that with the film when it's cut into scenes that are outside the games. I think that's a fair point. But let's talk about her major love interest in the book. You know, we spoke about how so much of the book is kind of a teen drama. And this is a guy called Peter Millar Yeah, that's Abby, you love him. You because you've written in the notes that he's the king of your heart. Yeah. Peter Malar the king of my heart. I know it so this kind of goes against, you know, Nicole and I was being about this. she's like, you're so boring. And's like it's true in so many ways, he's the opposite of kind of my type in fiction that is, if you see what I mean? because he is kind of the nice guy, he's a bit dull but basically, I had a massive crush on Josh Hutchinson when I was younger. because I watched Little Manhattan and Bridge to Terabithia. Having not read the book and then having watched the first film, I basically was going to be Team Peter from the start. and also You know, he's kind, he's actually more kind of weaselly or like calculating than you might think because he's very good at playing up to the cameras. Yeah. He's brave. We find out that he saved Katlis's life when they were younger because as she and her family were dying. He burnt the bread in his family's bakery intentionally and throughre her two loaves and it kept their family alive. and He's the one who builds this elaborate. ruse of pretending that he has been in love with Catness from afar all their lives. And it's a way to basically get the crowds behind them, support them as sort of Star Cross lovers. But the thing that we work out as the book goes on is that he actually has had a massive crush on Katnis from the start. I think that is quite romantic. I know it's a cliche, but cliches can be romantic. So I was watching this film on a plane yesterday next to my son Oh Arthur would not have thought well of this. He didn't. He was scoffing. He was scoffing a lot and he kept saying very loudly, How's the hunger games going in an attempt to basically make me look bad in front of the other passant. But you have a criticism of this bloke. You think he talks too much about bakery and bread products generally. I don't even mean that in kind of like a flippant jokey way There are literally three points in the book where Canace talks about having a conversation with Peter about the different kinds of bread in the capitol. That's true actually. They do talk with. And I know that if if that was if I was on a first, second and third date with a guy and he kept talking about bread, there would come a point where I'd be like, look. change the subject. but also the other thing is so just to build a sense of people This massively plays into the kind of the trope of the teen romance. We spoke about this in C of Thorns and Roses, a classic love triangle. And Peter is the foil to this guy Gail, who Countis has grown up with. They've hunted together, they're opposites. Gail is kind of dark, swarthy lean and fiery Peter is kind and steady and kind of blonde And you know the tension is, you know, who's Katnis gonna to pick? Yeah, it's kind of obvious though isn't it? So let's talk about Katnice, because Katnness is a narrator, She's a protagonist. We see everything through her eyes. In the form of Jennifer Lawrence, she became the face of the franchise, the bided hair, the bau the sort of mocking J pin, which again is a symbol of the story. I know you love her, so I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with you. I don't love her. I can see that like in many ways she's entirely two dimensional. but I think she is refreshing when you look at her in comparison to say Bella Cullen. from Twilight Okay youd eat it if you wouldn't know Okay, so So I would say she's very generic She's And this is weird for me because as we've discussed in other episodes, I'm sure of this show You have a massive animus against the character Ray in Star Wars, and you always say you always say, Oh, she's a girl boss. You don't like her. You don't like a girl boss. No I love a girl boss. I don't like an overtly cardboard cut out girl boss who basically is just ticking boxes for audiences and studios so they can be like, we love women, we love fl girl who can fight for themselves and don't have to be saved by men. We're like a spunky girl. That's so generic How does she not do that? She ticks all those boxes? I suppose because's like she's cruel. she can be very cruel and she's resourceful and I like the fact that she's kind of willing to kill and I like the fact that she's not particularly interested in kind of her own love story U and I like the fact that she's kind of quick to ignite and things like that. I can see that for a young girl, you know, maybe she is a good sort of role model. She's not massively interesting I would say she's also more interesting than Feyre from a courtter Thorns and Roses because it's not constantly about her martyrdom. That's the other thing. Girl bosses are so often like martyred figures. Catlus isn't really. That's a very fair point because think about it comparing it with a court of Thorns and Roses. and a court of Thorns and Roses. I mean, I' never thought, by the way that I would be discussing you know analyzing the comp. Yeah characters in these teen books. Anyway, In accord to Thorson and Rose's favorite, basically spends most of the time. She's very introverted. She spends a lot of time thinking about herself analyzing her feelings, but also feeling very sorry for herself and meditating on her own kind of victimhood. in this book Tatness is very unreflective. She very rarely she lives in the moment She very rarely thinks feels sorry for herself. No She does she does help her family, but she doesn't really reflect on Bang on about it. No, she doesn't bang on about it. She's more impulsive. She's not interested in the love triangle actually. No. Is she? No, she also she uses it. She uses it to her advantage. The love story is not actually the point whichich I think is refreshing because it means that Cat the point of Catlus isn't these two blokes The point of Catnness, I suppose, is that she is an individual cas against a system, isn't she? She's a reluctant rebel as well. You know who she reminds me of actually Dominic? Who? A movie that we both love. Rogue one. Fhelisty Jones's character in that. Roguan is such a good film. Such a good film. but she's like that. She's like that a reluctant rebel, quite cold, quite chilly, quite violent, quite brutal, underneath it all That's just a little girl Wh misses her daddy. In this book, Katness's you know role as a symbol as someone who opposes the Capitol and it's totalitarianism. It doesn't come through very strongly. But we do get hints throughout that Panem and the Capitol is an oppressive totalitarian regime and that it keeps the districts under control. It's got the surveillance, it's got fences around the districts It has these people called the peacekeepers who are these sort of brutal enforcers working for the government, doesn't it? We see all this through her eyes, but it's a world that she takes for granted, right? That the existing the unequal system. She doesn't really question it. Most people growing up under oppressive regimes, I think your average person, we spoke about this and we spoke about the Handmaid's tale back when we did the miniseries on the restest of history. You just want to get by It's just day to day like small acts of survival. It's not everyone is like automatically a rebel. Yeah, completely agreed. You know, she's not especially educated She's not You know, there's no sort of rebel group hiding in the woods that she has become, you know, affiliated with or anything like that. There are things that she objects to And she's conscious of the use of propaganda, and she's conscious of the surveillance culture, and she's conscious of the way in which she's being used, but she doesn't reflect upon it which I think is perfectly reasonable. It's exactly how a character like that. would actually would behave I think one of the things in this book that she reinforces all the time is the disparity in wealth, you, the inequality because that directly affects her family is constantly fighting not to starve. m whereereas, you know, she comes to the capitol and it's incredibly prosperous and luxurious, as we've said And then obviously as the books progress the poor masses will rise up against the you know wealthy elite. and I mean, they're sort of, I suppose if you We' sort of trying to force the point, something maybe with the French revolution in that. And she becomes a symbol of that. But we're not conscious of that really in this book are we? The propaganda, you are conscious of the propaganda, the fact that they are very keen to project a certain image, the fact that they stream the hunger games into everyone's homes, the fact that they make the hunger games something that the districts ought to celebrate, you know they wear their nice clothes for the reaping Katnus and Peter go back as you know, in real style as champions as kind of having done a good thing They definitely bend the narrative to their own agenda. So just on the arena, So basically you're dropped into the arena and then there there's a big horn called the Cornuccopia with full of stuff. And if you want, you can battle for the stuff or you can run away and hide in the woods. Yeah, we're following Katness. She's watching as Some of the contestants are picked off, they kill each other, they form alliances, all of this kind of thing And the games the whole time, like a reality TV show being manipulated by the producers, aren't they? So they are introducing these mutations because we're in a world of genetic mutations and whatnot. So they're introducing There's wasps. They're horrible. the trackerjackers. Yeah. the wasps sting you and then you have hallucinations and you may end up dying. So one of the characters I know you said you thought this was quite a horrific moment in the book when one of the characters is stungb these wasps and dies and her kind of flesh disintegrates. Yeah it's kind of gross and then Katnness has to rip the bow from her kind of clenched hand But the worst bit is the wolfmutts that appear kind of in the final round of the games. There's only three contestants left and they look like wolves from a distance, but they can stand on their hind legs and they kind of do things with their pws that are sort of human esque. Yeah. But then it turns out and this is so disturbing. it turns out The tributes that have been killed, it's like them resurrected So they have the eyes and the hair of all the dead tributes. They didn't do this in the film. I was so disappointed because I was looking forward to this. So this is The one reality TV show that I'm absolutely addicted to, this is a mad confession. I love the apprentice I know all the criticisms. I've heard them a thousand times. It's absolutely brilliant. You're in the pay of Allan Sugar, aren't you? Lord Sugar now, Tabby, Oh I'm so sorry, my lord. Yeah. Anyway, they A the in apprentice and the final The two contestants can bring back the other people who've been knocked out and this is what this reminded me of Now actually, the serious point here is about the violence, isn't it? Yeah. Because this idea of these kind of wolves, the faces of dead contestants reminds you that a lot of people have died. and actually in America in particular, where people are frankly more squeamish about these things weirdly given the levels of violence in American society, but there you are People are definitely more squeamish and it's often challenged, you know, school districts and whatnot or your parents groups will challenge the inclusion of this book in libraries and school reading lists and things because they say it's too violent for teenagers Do you think it's too violent for teenagers? Clearly you don't because you loved the film and you read the books when you were a teenager. Yeah. I definitely don't think it's too violent for teenagers. I also think and this is a point that you've often made, I think that for teenagers and children, the more violent, the better they seem to enjoy it more. And also I suppose because as a teenager and a child you're less likely to kind of really stop and think about the premise Be it's kind of just people your age and they're just kind of fighting and you know you're not really thinking about it. But then I thought about it a lot when I was reading it that you know stuff like a twelve year old girl, a sweet little twelve year old girl, is speared in the stomach and Cato, that kind of the warrior tribute, he's slowly eaten alive over the course of hours. And it is children taking on children. I don't think it should ever be banned. I don't think books should ever be banned or cut out of syllabuses or anything because you know it's not ideologically challenging or anything like that But it is incredibly violent But I think she does the violence quite well because it's often kind of in the peripheries. There are these few moments where it hits you full on and that's say the Wolfmuts, the trackerjackers, this moment when Kato just breaks someone's neck On the whole, like I was struck by the fact the word murder is only used kind of five times in the book because it allows you to watch the games and participate in the games as a reader in the way that the spectators of the Capitol do, i. e, you gamify it you're like, which of these teenagers will triumph over this teenager, you're not like which of these teenagers will murder? You raised the comparison in the first off with Lord of the Flies And I think it's a lot less shocking than Lord of the Flies is. Well, they're younger as well in Lord of the Flies. They're younger, but also Lord of the Flies is grounded in a realism, I suppose. Yeah. children, their world, the way they think, the way they act. And it's definitely not cartoonish There is an there is and also frankly, Lord of the Flies is a book for adults So it's written in a much richer, grittier, more nuanced way than the Hunger Games is. when the children turn on piggy, in Lord of the Flies. It is a a really shocking and affecting moment. and I remember reading that as a twelve year old and being ed by it. I actually had to stop reading the book because I'd never You know, it was a book that plunged more deeply than any book I'd ever read into the darkness of the human soul That is not true of the Hunger Games. I mean you just you're told, oh, so there are some children here who've been bred as killers. Here they are killing each other, but you're not invited to reflect on it, though, are you? No, you're definitely not. It's action based. It's not about the idea behind it. It's about the action. But it's also because, you know you're in an imaginary world where as you say, Lord of the Flies. We spoke about Just William on our Q and A that we did on YouTube. And it would be a bit like just William living in that world, that version of England, he and his mates suddenly you know hitting each other over the head with rocks. How shocking would that be? but also And Lord of the Fies. William Golding's very good at putting you in the mind of a child, a bit like the narrator in the go betweenween. It's disturbing because it's children thinking these things or doing these things. In the hunger games, Katnness is what sixixteen And she actually thinks like an older person Yes, she does. It automatically kind of raises the maturity, not of the story or the premise, but the maturity of the people that she's up against. Now this will seem again like I'm being unduly harsh on the book and I don't mean to because I did enjoy reading it. We don't really believe that Canas exists and that this world exists when we're reading the book. We're conscious of it as a fictional construct. It's a fun entertainment. you don't genuinely believe this po. Of course you don't Lord of the Flies is much more immersive and precisely because it's a book for an older reader written by great one of the twentieth century's great writers you inhabit this world in a much more meaningful and affecting way than a reader of the Hunger Games would. I don't believe that any Even the most sheltered childs reading The Hunger Games will really I don't think they'll be haunted for days by the violent. Do you, Tabby? No, I don't. But I think the thing that actually which probably wouldn't haunt young read as much as older viewers, is the thing I was sort of sightly disturbed by was the reality TV element of it. How much pleasure The spectators in the capital from watching these children kill each other and how much they sensationalize it and how they turn the characters into know types. know, you have the violent one, you have the romantic one, you have the prissy one you know, and how little they really care about the deeper meanings, i. e, the violence within the arena. And as I was reading it I kept thinking about that moment in Gladiator when Commodists kind of There's a horribly violent death in the amphitheater and he sticks his tongue out like he's kind of just drunk on the gore and the violence. And I kept thinking about that element of it and how these very polished and very ostentatiously prosperous people are watching children kill each other and they're just, you know, thoroughly enjoying it. The voyism, the voyurism of it The voyeurism. I find that disturbing because I'm often quite disturbed by and think quite a lot about the role of reality TV in modern culture. I've always found that a little bit disturbing. You know, Suzanne Collins said There is so much programming today that I worry that we're all getting a little bit desensitized to the images on our televisions. You know if you're watching a sitcom, that's fine, but there's a real life tragedy unfolding, et cca, etcer. And you know I dread the time when You know, we're so used to screens and scrolling and watching things and we can have whatever TV we want at the click of a button. I'd dread the time when people will, I don't know, watch news footage of like, I don't know, Ukraine or Iran or whatever it may be and then be like, o, this is actually just a bit boring. But people do think like that They' already seen leather. They do, they do. And I find that nerve racking and then they flicker and then they'll be like, this is so tedious. P on love is blind. And I get it. I totally get it. It's like, why would you you know chew your way through a chewy but nutritious steak when you could you know, swallow down heaps of candy floss, like one is easy, one is hard. But it is desensitizing. And I also think the fact that We now look to escapism. to people living in the real world and we like play with them like puppets. Yes. I don't like that either. and that's the element of the hunger games that I find slightly prophetic and certainly very disturbing I think you're dead right about both those things. So on the one hand the desensitizing to violence. That's undoubtedly true You see that a lot. I mean Squid games. inssane Yeah, or people exchanging clips and memes. of the fighting in Gaza or Ukraine or whatever. There's that element and the other is the manipulation. The idea about producers, manipulating people. And so Peter in particular is very conscious that he is playing a part in a drama playing up to that And how often have you heard people in reality TV programs whose lives may go on to be destroyed, by the way, by their participation in the program? Because it It kind of taints them forever. They think that they're in control and they're going to become influencers and media stars because they'll become a tremendous hit on Love Island or whatever program they're on, the apprentices or whatever. But in fact, afterwards, they say, well, I was stitched up by the producers. The producers didn't choose my best bits. The producers, of course, craft a character. They create a persona then the contestants either fight against it or they have to live up to it and they end up playing up and pandering to the audience's expectations All of this kind of thing. I mean, you see all of these things in the Hunger Games. I wouldn't say that they're explored with tremendous complexity, but they're defitely they're definitely there, aren't they? Yeah, the idea of her flicking through TV channels and being like, oh my go reality TV and war and like, o, I'll put those two things together. You know, I think she was writing a really fun story withith a really engaging world and a really engaging premise. I don't think she was trying to like write a political doctrine or whatever a warning for our times The other thing is that the capital is so capitalistic Everyone has so much of everything and they're constantly needing to be fed more, more, more more violence because you know what else is going to get you going when you can't have everything. And I did slightly wonder if that's slightly a critique of the time. It's two thousands, It's pre crash, right? It's two thousand seven. I think she publishes the book in two thousand eight. It would be a different book if it was written now. Yeah. I think it would be a world where people are desensitized precisely because they have too much actually. And so they're craving more extreme for heuristic spectacles. And you can warp reality, you know, they say at one point, they do surgery in the capitol to make people app pay younger and thinner. That's never been more true than now. You can literally alter the way you look. Yeah exactly totally get away with it and probably do well for it. So in that way, there's also a massive moral ambiguity at the heart of the Hunger Games because the faker you are the more likely you are to succeed. I mean it's basically what Peter and Katnis to escape the arena in the, isn't it The fact that they play into this idea that of them being lovers. Exactly. So the love story, the love triangle, this is the second time we've done a book aim to this roughly this age group. Acord to Thorns and Roses is quite different though, because the love story is uppermost. It's the point of reading the book. In this book The love triangle is slightly underplayed. you can actually not care about it and still enjoy the book You've read all the books in the series now. Am I being too dismissive if I say that I find this a little bit flimsy, the love triangle element? or does it acquire greater strength as the series goes on I think it does acquire greater strength as the series goes on. and the fact that, you know It comes to represent that, you know, different choices that Katnness has to make, what kind of a life she wants. and you know, in choosing someone to be with her, you are in part choosing like a kind of a life maybe. But I also don't think it's like the most moving thing ever. I mean, it's no kind of Elizabeth and Darcy or whatever becausecause you know, Catus isn't particularly invested Both boys are kind of archetypes And there's a huge dollop of the teen drama about it, the kind of high school drama even. I think that Peter is an oddly touching character, but I also think that maybe This is something that appeals more to possibly young women than young men. I'm always surprised by how much of a suckcer I am for like a romance and particularly a romance that's a will they won't they element and something that grows along the way. So I definitely don't think it's groundbreaking, but I enjoyed it. There's a high school drama element to this whole thing, isn't there? Definitely. And we said the same of C ofthorns and Roses. Well, Catnist rather like failor in the Cter Thors and Roses has this she's constantly being watched Is she's not conscious of her own beauty I mean, that's such a massive. ich They're kind of heroine who doesn't realize just how good looking she is. Yeah is astounded when she's told that the boys are interested in her. She has a makeover. She does have a makeover. actuallyctually they' both are makeovers, don't they? Yeah, but Canice's is great. I love the outfits in this book It's And genuinely though, it's great. I wish I could wear some of these, like the dress that goes on fire and's covered in jewels and yeah, she's the girl on fire, Katis Edy and girl on fire. The film Do you think the film is better than the book No Oh But you love the film I do love the film, but it's different things, isn't it? What you said about the fact that we're in Canis's head throughout the birk and that bris suspense and stuff I think that's really effective. I just I loved the drama of the film. I found it You know, particularly the second film I found it quite moving and the idea of these people rising up in rebellion and being very, very brave and the way that everything's filmed in the arena was done well And I watched a while when I was fourteen I was so into the love triangle. I was so into Katnness. I loved the aesthetics of it. I loved the music So I suppose It has a more obvious effect to the film, which is often true of you know all films. It is constantly it has tools to up the tention and the romance and whatever it is. But I really I really enjoyed reading the book. It was much M. subtle than I expected What about you? I didn't really enjoy the film. I know It's okay I shocked you before we started broadcasting by saying that I found Jennifer Lawrence a little bit uncharismatic She wasn't the cadess of my imagination from reading the book. Jh Hutchson' a hotsy, isn't? Oh really. Are you team Gale team teeam Peler in the book I can't believe I'm having this conversation, Tabby. like I like Peter. I think Peter's a great. I think he's a good character. I think he's the best observed character in the book because there's an ambiguity to him. We're never quite sure where he stands. We haven't really gone into the narrative of what happens in the arena because we don't want to spoil it. But there was a point in that where it appears They he is siding with people who we regard as as villains As villains And we're not quite clear what his motivation is even at the end of the book. There's a little bit of doubt about exactly where Peter stands. Is he really in love with Katnness? Is he not? Is it all a ruse? Is he playing a part And I like that about him. And even though're in Katniss's head as well, there's an ambiguity about how she feels about Peter. which I thought was done well and keeps you, you know, pulls you along as the series goes on. You know, you're hoping to see who she'll end up with More to the point, how do you think you'd fare in the Hunker Games? Well, this is the key question. This is what we've been building up to. Wait, first of all, what would be your worst like mutation to go up against? Like giraffes with fangs, that would frighten me. Oh, I thought you meant who would I least like to whose face would I least like to see O a wolf Mine Lertic was. If I was attacked by a wolf with your face, I'd find that very depressing I How would I get on in the games? Yeah So actually I'm going to reveal something here. Dominic and I before we did this recording You said, I know I don't have a shadow of a doubt that if we were in the hunker games, you would kill me instantly. I' say that. fair say that.'s And then I said I said No. And then I said, I know that you would use poison. you're just you scream like byyzantine poisoner or something. Wow. Then you were like, no No no. I'd take people by surprise because I would get a rock And I would beat people's heads in and no one would see it coming and I was like We were just having fun here. Now you're talking about pissing people over the head with a rock So I initially thought that you would not farewell in the honkey games But you are very, very, very intelligent. so I think that would work in your favor. I mean, it's hard to know what has responsible to all that, because there's so much going on and what you' said this There was some nice praise but there was also the stuff, some mad stuff. I mean, I think very few people wouldn't portray people in order to survive and that suggests I have a very bleak view of human nature. In this scenario, we from the same district? Is that the? No, I think we're from different districts. You scream district one You know, rightight Pampered Glamour, luxury, pampered. Iice cream district twelve. District twelve outsid outsider underdog, you joking from the wrong side of the tracks. I actually think I'd back myself quite hard in the hunker games. I'm very quick. I'd be quite good at climbing trees How did I say I'd kill you? You said, this is really, really poor from Tabby and that actually ruined my holiday. She said She said she would play on my greed. There. wasas it burying a load of like gourmet food in a pit And there was something to do with honey and then a trap? No' given it so much. Ands so much like he's been starving ' he hasn't been bed for twenty four hours. He goes up. All his intelligence deserts him because there's Fie gras in the pit. You'd clamber in Then you'd get enclosed in a massive net that I have built from Reed And then For some reason you'd be covered in honey. I can't have why. Yeah that. And then the other goll hanger presenters with whom I have formed an alliance would all come up and feather you. So it's put that to bed. So should we what should our rating system be this week? Isas it genetically engineered wasps U Who's going first? Should I go first? go you go first? I think I'm going to give this I'm going to do something I never thought I'd do. I'm really shaming myself because I gave you grief for doing this the other week. I'm going to use a half. Wow, for the first time in the show, I'm getting into the world of fractions I'm going to give it six and a half. cause. I enjoyed it more than a quter of Thorns and Roses whichich I enjoyed at the end, but I felt that massive bits of quord of Thorbss and Roses They sort of lagged of a slow. This I found the narrative very propulsive. The writing's a bit thin though, I think. Even for a teenage book. It's pretty watery. I think it is watery. Stephen King said of it that he thought, although he found it kind of addictive. Yeah, he said that he thought the writing was lazy and would only appeal to young audiences. I think he's probably right. This is a book that you could give to somebody, a teenager in particular and say I bet you you you'll whiz through this. It's a page turner However, it is absolutely not a book of which you could make any literary claims. It's an interesting book and it's interesting in why it appeals to people and how it reflects the anxieties and the interests of our time, as it were or the two thousands and twenty ten s But as a work of literature It's very thin So there you go I to give it six and a half. And I think that's gener's quite generous actually I'm going to give it a seven. because I really, really enjoyed it and I don't think should ever just put aside how enjoying books matters, how much that matters and what a credit that is to the person who wrote it because I don't think I could begin to write a book that kept people hooked. So I think that's impressive. I enjoyed it. I liked Katnis, Iked Peter But as you say, the writing is there's nothing special about it So I'm going gonna give a seven. Fair enough. So six and a half and a seven Yeah And what do we have coming up? I will tell you. So next week, we have the picture of Dorn Gray Then we have the Code of the Wisters, which would be really fun. No wait for that. Then we have littleittle women Then we have Game of Thrones Then we have the wind in the Willows, then we have the Leopard, Th we have the thirty nine steps, Th we have my brilliant friend, and then we have Cersei. So that should give you ample warning of of what's coming up So thank you everybody, as always for all your comments and keep your questions coming for our Q and As that we do on YouTube because we always Have fun answering those And yeah, so I feel like we've learned a lot about ourselves in this podcast. Yeah Yeah. and not necessarily in a good way. And on that Yeah. Terrifying note Thank you for listening and goodbye. Thank you, bye