The Sad Reality of Kenneth Graham

This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society. The Wind in the Willows is a story that has lasted and it's lasted for a reason. It's a tale in which friendship is the anchor, but adventure is the spark. It actually started as a series of bedtime stories that Kenneth Graham would write to his son, and it is rooted in the English countryside And it paints a world that is both grand and rich but cozy and warm. I love the lazy boating days with Ratty, very much my character and Mole, who's very much U Tabby. There's the expedition to the world Wood, there's the fighting, the weasels and the stoats. I love all that stuff. Then we have the Lgendary Toad Hall and that is home to the reckless and motorcar obsessed Mr. Tad Sandbrook ery, very good ban today there, well done. Thank you. Lots of people will know the story. However You won't know it in this amazing edition. It's the Folio Society Edition. Genuinely, it's the most beautiful book. It's like one of the most beautiful books I own, I think. Yeah, it absolutely is. It's something that you can treasure for the rest of your life. Folios The Wind in the Willows is available now. Find your favorite story at foliociety dot com slash the book Hey parents How do you make smarter choices for your kids college today That's where Sally can help With Sally, you can find scholarships, funding options, tools, and guidance all in one place And if you need a loan, Sally has options for different families and different situations College is only worth it if you do it right. So don't just help your kid go Help them go smarter Sally d. com slash go parents Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. 'was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight We feast An offer you can feast on. seell your car today on Carvana pick up these mailly There's only one more thing to be done saida the gratified badger toad I want you solemnly to repeat before your friends here, what you fully admitted to me in the smoking room just now First We' sorry for what you've done. And you see the folly of it all There was a long, long pause Toad looked desperately this way and that, while the other animals waited in grave silence At last he spoke No, he said A little sullenly, but stoutly. I'm not sorry. and it wasn't folly at all. It was simply glorious. What? cried the badger, greatly scandalized slliding animal. Didn't you tell me just now in there? Oh yes, so yes, in there. said Toad impatiently. I'd have said anything in there. You're so eloquent, dear Badger, and so moving and so convincing, and you put all your points so frightfully well. You can do what you like with me in there and you know it. But I've been searching my mind since and going over things in it And I find that I'm not a bit sorry or repentant really, so it's no earthly good saying I am now, is it? en you do promise, said the badger, neverever to touch a motor car again. Certainly not. replied Tad emphatically. On the contry. I faithfully promise that the very first motor car I see, boo, boop Are I going it? So that was, of course, from Kenneth Graham's The Wind in the Willows first published in nineteen oh eight and joining us on the show Toad of Toad Hall. Hello Donic. Tread carefully, Tubby. Tread carearefully. So in that scene, a badger played by me and the other animals who live by the river have staged an intervention persuade the iconic Mr. Toad to give up his enthusiasm, his addiction for fast cars. and Toad initially promises Badger that he'll kick this bad habit But he was only pretending. he was only saying that to shut Badger up and worm his way out of the room. So totally unrepentant, totally shameless, and he's now exulting and having tricked the dignified and honorble badger. is. So I always remember that scene from when I first read this book, which was when I was a child. and it's I think it's every kind of little boy a little girl's fantasy You've promised to be good And your parents have swallowed your apology. and then you turnound immediately and you say to them, I'm actually not sorry at all and I would do it again. I would do it in a heartbeat. It's also a very good preview actually, Tabby, of married life. That's good to know.. That is c to know. So I think even in that little scene you get a clue to the Wind in the Willows' incredible success because there's something I mean, I'm only half joking about that. So there is something in those characters in toad and Badger and then of course in Mole and Rat who are the other sort of members of the quQartet. that I think captures this sort of truth about human nature. All human nature is there in those four characters. Yeah. So even though it's a book about it's a children's book about the animals who live by the riverbank, I think it's actually much deeper than that. And that's the reason for its to opearion, that's why it merits its place on the show Because among other things, it's a portrait of kind of rural Edwardy in England threatened by modernity. It's a celebration of male friendship and male kind of camaraderie. But actually as we will discuss later, I mean, lot of people will be amazed to hear this. It's a reworking of Homer's the Odyssey I actually couldn't believe it when I stumbled across that in your notes. I'm delighted, but I'm shocked. Will you love the Odyssey? I Tad is a much more interesting character. I know. and I just couldn't agree more. I think Odysseus is the most interesting of the Greek heroes. but then again Tad has a certain flamboyance to him. He does. He wears a lot more tweed than a dis. And even the new. Yeah. come on, I don't wear any tweed as well you know. It's now, what almost one hundred and twenty years old the winds in the willows. Which is strange, because it feels so present everywhere You know, it's had such a lasting impact that I I forgot it was so old. There are very few books published in nineteen oh eight that are still in print. Yeah. And there are very I mean children's books, or adult books, and there are very few books from that era who have left such a mark on the world's imagination. So mole rat, especially towad. U Colossal figures, even to people who've not read the books. I mean everybody, if you say to somebody, he's a bit of a Mr. Toad Everybody really knows what you mean. If you go into any bookshop in English speaking world, you can find copies of the book. There's a historian of children's fiction, Jillian Avery whoot the introduction to the Penguin Classics Eedition. She calls it an essential element of English childhood Part of the background of the reading adult, a book whose importance is un. question and have been adaptations so on the stage. best of all, Tabby on TV. Oh God, yeah. So I mean, this is the great trauma of your life I've been seeking serious counlling in advance of this episode. You couldn't bring yourself to watch theT the ITV adaptation. Yeah. Well actually, I did like I've seen little bits of it, I saw it as a child when I was ding with my aunt and uncle in England And I thought it was a truly Terrifying You know, it's full of these garishly grinning puppets gallivanting across the screen in a sinister fashion with their eyes like really raised and kind of big eyes. Yeah they have almost like a religious fervour in the way that their eyes are constantly rais It's a nightmare provoking, but then equally sinister and perhaps even more sinister Yeah was the nineteen ninety six adaptation starring Steve Coogan, I believe, in the role of Mole. Yeah, Steve Cuan was Mole. Steve Cuan was Mole, friendriend of the show. Hold on, who's the friend of the show, there, Molle or Cugan? Partridge actually, so nice exactly. And Partridge is a friend of the show. I't thinkst Steve. You cares about Can, yeah Felamina what And the thing is, the thing that's terrible about that is they're humans. they look like humans, but they're slightly animalized So they look like kind of bastardized versions of animals and humans. So all of this I find to be shudder inducing And it's taken a lot of courage. me to be here today with you. So the book I read as a child several times and then I' read it to my son and we watched the TV series a lot, Tabby, which will terrify you. Poor Arthur on his. Yeah Well, he's a big f He is a big fan. and I've always been had a massive sentimental fondness for it and also always thought , certainly when I started thin about it as a grownup, I thought how interesting it was and how many layers there were and how much there would be to unpick if every wanted to look into it. So actually doinguring this episode, I really, really enjoyed this and there's loads of fascinating stuff under the surface, I think. Yeah. I was excited actually to read it in part because of your enthusiasm for it. I know that it has a massive sentimental spot for you. but I'd actually never read it because I'm not a big fan of animals dress in human clothing. Right.'t I can't get behind them. I'm not invested. I get spot and never really did it for me. But then my dad is a massive, massive fan of the Wen in the Willows, huge emotional attachment to it from childhood. So then when I was on a holiday recently, he gave me his kind of battered nineteen fifty nine edition without all the original illustrations have to confess. I think I was wrong to have turned up my nose at it for so long because it's cozy, it's funny, it's whimsical. It's the very best kind of parable about human nature because so many books of that era, as you said are slightly out of fashion now because you know, when it's humans playing in that way because children don't really play like that anymore wasereas this? becausecause it genuinely, I think does say something about human nature. I think that's part of the reason it's endured And I love the way, you know a little bit like Narnia or something. everyveryone always goes to bed Well fed, cozy and content. There's a lot of buttered toast. There's so much buttered toast. you can't have enough buttered toast. Correct. I really enjoyed it So before we get into some of the themes and we get into Kenneth Graham, the author, who's a fascinating character and we get into his world Why don't we give people a little reminder of the story? So we kick off with mold, don't we Yes, we do. So we start with Moul and he is doing a spot of spring cleaning. and then he rushes out onto the riverbank and there he meets the water rat. And they have great fun. They're messing around with boats, they have a picnic, It's just a buolic fairy tale. And then in the next few chapters, we come across the other principal characters. So of course, there's mister Toad, obsessed with fads of various kinds. When we start, it's a caravan Then he has a car crash, and he falls in love with the newfangled motor carar because cars have been on the roads since the eighteen nineties. And then this is when he starts yelling his famous poop poop that you demonstrated in the opening reading. And then we come across Badger He is kind of venerable and dignified. He is a bit older. He lives in the wild wood. And Mole goes into the wild wood because he's never been there and he's curious. and it all goes terribly wrong. It's quite frightening. He gets lost in the wood. and this bit is actually even this time I could see that as a child would' be very frightened. No, it iss scary when it's genuinely frightening. One of a child's greatest fears is always been lost Yeah In the woods with eyes, you know, like in the original snow White, there's this bit when she's rushing through the woods and there's eyes everywhere Just like that. And then we have this lovely, reassuring homecoming when Rat goes and finds him and they go and take shelter with the ultimately kind badger. And then there are these two slightly odd, very different chapters, which are very lyrical and slightly strange And these feature rat and mull. So there is the piper at the Gates of Dawn and Wayfarers all. And the first one is where they encounter the god Pan. Bizarrely And then later the rat is tempted by the call of the sea and we'll be digging into that a little bit more later. Yeah. And then you've got the second half of the book and that really belongs to Mr. Toodad So Todad, you know, he's promised Badger that he'll give up cars But he doesn't mean it, he escapes. They try to look him up and he escapes He steals the car, he' sent to prison. Tremendous adventures, escaping from prison. And then he returns to find that Toad haall has been invaded and occupied by the animals who live in the Wild Wood, who are the weasels, the stoats, and the ferrets. And then the great climax, which I loved when I was reading it when I was kind of six or seven or something, a mole and rat and badger and toad kind of join forces, they tool up They infiltrate Yeah sool through a tunnel. Rat is sitting on a on a disturbing armament pile. he so many weapons.. He's like an arms dealer. But I love that, but that would obviously appeal to a child because child love to have, you know, toy pistols and toy swords and all that. Yeah. And you can never if you go questing or something, you can never have enough. Exactly right. exactly. And the idea of sneaking in through a tunnel, brilliant Itllly speak to you when you're under ten years old. And the cost dressing, of course. yes. I've everard I spoke to you as a terrible boyice. It's a bit of cross disguises. kids love disguises. Yeah. So they sneak in, they liberate tootall, they have a celebratory banquet Tod is slightly reformed. so he gives up on his plans to sing a song and to give an incredibly bombastic speech and he surprises everybody at the end of the book appearing to be and I quote an altered toad because he's a little bit better behaved than he was. when the book began Wellough he's still slightly one uppping them, isn't he? because he realizes that It'll have this reaction from everyone. He'll surprise everyone. so it's kind of cultulated. Whort of having kinded, by the way.. You feign some kind of you know atonement or reform in order to still be making a statement?t to I don't want to give too much away toabb, but basically I've found in my life the feigning modesty. Yes is very satisfying and effective. Totally So Where does it all come from? does it mean anything more than just a children's story? There's a brilliant book about children's fiction that came out last year by a friend of mine called Sam Leith and it's called the haaunted Wood And he points out early on in this book, he says the most effective writers for children almost always seem to be the ones who've most invested in it emotionally. Often they're writing from a wound, whether a wound sustained in childhood. or the wound of having had to leave it behind in the first place. So apt that I think, I think that's very well observed. Well, I think what it is is Writers create a fantasy world of this kind because they're trying to get away from unhappiness, some form of unhappiness But They create the escape, they create the sort of lost paradise, but the unhappiness somehow finds its way in, or finds a reflection. It's the tension between those two things that often gives these books their power. And I think that's definitely true the win of the Willow. So Samle says It's one of the most homeetically kind of closed worlds of innocence in the history of children's literature But the reason It exists as it does. It's precisely because it's powered by Kenneth Graham's own personal unhappiness and his very strange kind of conflicted response to the traumas of his early life. So there's actually a lot of darkness under the surface in the wind in the Willows, which you can spot when you read it when you're seven years old or something Kind of like unlike PG Woodhouse, those, you know, the Jeees and Worterbooks, they genuinely are as light as they appear, but you know, they have elements of quite a troubled childhood, his own troubled childhood in them Yeah And yet it never the darkness never seeps in, I suppose, which is kind of interesting. Bose, I think there is more obvious darkness here. Well, we're going into it, won't we. So Kenneth Graham's life. I mean, on the one hand, what happens to him is not so outlandish, but I guess it's the way he responds to it that makes this quite strange and sad, don't you think? Yeah, there's a sad kind of passivity to him I think yeah which is possibly slightly of the times, but It's always sad, I think, the way that you know, men of that generation reacted and it was just the dumb thing. and in a way it's very brave, but it is sad So take us through what happened to him, Tumy. Yeah, so he's born in Edinburgh in eighteen fifty nine. hisis father is a lawyer and then they moved to rural Argyhire when he's small. And one of his few memories of these early years is walking beside a lock with his father and his father's telling him a story. and this makes it its way into the Wind in the Willows when Mole is walking by a rat and it says as one trots when very small by the side of a man who holds one spell bound by exciting stories. And then when he's five, the first tragedy strikes and this is when his mother, his mother has another son, She then catches scarlet fever. She lingers on for about two weeks. and then she dies and her final words which are So incredibly moving, I think, it's all been so lovely ike I think we should all be so lucky or not. Well she was only, I think the late twenties when she died. I mean She was very young. Yeah. It's very sad Um And then Kenneth Graham himself catches it too. he nearly dies. So many of the authors we've done on this show had terrible illnesses at some point in their lives. I think, I wonder if that kind of lends itself to writing or something. you know Well I always think something like the loss of a parent. It's so striking how many of the great writers lost a parent when they were Anyway, he recovers, but he's left with bronchial issues for the rest of his life. and his father just can't cope with these children, so it's two brothers and one sister. So he sends them south to live with his mother in law, Mrs. Ingless in the Berkshire village of Cookham Dean on the Bank of the Thames, and this is a really idyllic time in his life And it gives him inspiration for the riverb bank in the wind of the Willows. And it reminded me of JR Tolkien, JR R. Tolkien's time, living in Sarhole, I think, which is a really idealised period of life kind of in the countryside. Yeah, just outside Birmingham. Exactly the same thing things. a similar period of time, L Victorian, Edwardian. sort of the rural itidle. Exactly that. Yeah. tootally. And then after a couple of years with his mother in law He moves to a smaller cottage and then there's brief and really unhappy interviewed when he goes back to live with his father, but by this point his father is drinking far too much and it just doesn't work out at all. And his father then runs away, abandons them, he runs away to France and dies years later in a boarding house in L Harre, which is Miser. Drinks himself to death, basically. Yeah. And so his children end up being shuffled around various relatives all the time which would give you such a sense of kind of not belonging and abandonment. I think so. And I think what Kenneth Graham does is he withdraws, doesnn't he into a fantasy world of his imagination from which he never really emerges. Yeah. But I actually think that's just the most understandable in a way, quite a healthy reaction. Yeah, I think so I mean lots of children live in their heads But as you grow up You leave the world of, I mean, we never entirely leave the world of daydreams behind, do we? But we You know, you you at least meet the real world halfway. and I think there's an argument McKenneth Graam. I mean, his biographers kind of say he really is somebody who chooses deliberately never to grow up. So this biography of him, a really nice book actually about him. Very sad book by Matthew Dennison called Eternal Boy And the theme of that is about how basically he wants to be. You know, an eight year old boy all his life, he shuns the adult world Yeah and he's frightened of it because it means he equates it with suuffering, disappointment, you know, being grief, all of those kinds of things. A B bit like JM Barry actually. interestnteresting Yeah Yeah, and I think there's definitely a cult of childhood at that that I think anyway. you're right And so U I think there's a Well, lots of critics think that the heart of the wind and the willow iss, there is this Tension between wantanting to escape and have adventures on the one hand That's something we've already mentioned W him to come home. to the kind of hearth and the butter toast and the g world of your borough. On the other end, the characters are constantly being pulled between these two things. And you can see that escape he would equate, you toad escaping toad haall A little bit like his father running away to France or something? Yeah At one point the rat is actively tempted by the prospect of running away and living a carefree kind of responsibility free life And and it's yes, of course. Iirresistible almost. Exactly. And then on the other hand The houses of the different animals, you know, you mentioned they're living in Cookham Deen by the Thames The houses of the animals by the riverbank are massively important to them. And again and again, you have these scenes where they come back to their house and they love their house and they they snuggle down and all of this sort of stuff and Yeah, someome critics sort of say in a very freudian way, o, this is the kind of return to the womb or something like that. I know I think that's mad. think I think that's massively deepening it. Also for one thing, it's quite a masculine book, you know is a very masculine book. Well, we'll talk about that. But it's also that is the theme of the Odyssey. One of the foundational texts of Western literature is going far from home and coming back findinding perhaps your home may have been taken from you. Well yeah, that's what I was gonna to say though. I mean, definitely that massively applies to one animal's arc. But the difference is that, you know, in the Odyssey home You know, he goes back and it's not this kind of cherished perfect place he's been fighting for all these years. Home really is as good as one hopes it will be in the winter the Willows Yes, it is exactly. it completely is. And I think You know, these are common themes in children's literature But Kenneth Graham seems to have taken that retreat into fantasy to an extreme, not matched by most other writers. So I mean in a huge theme of his life, he emotionally rejects the adult world and adult interests And he finds such comfort in his kind of schoolboy imagination that he never ever wants to leave it. And as somebody who loved being a child and loves kind of children's books, I actually do find that quite relatable I mean, but I ever I never I mean, I never suffered all the sort of the losses that he did. But I think there's a bit of of all of us Deep down that sentimentalizes and is nostalgic about the world of cho. don't you tell me or is this just? Yeah. No, totally. And also, you know I've always even now whenever there's something slightly daunting or unnerving or something on the horizon, I'll always retreat into the books of my childhood for a little bit for like comfort I totally relate to that. Yeah. But the thing is this all makes him sound like he's very damaged in some way. but on the surface, you know, as we said, he seems pretty jolly, pretty well adjusted. So he' sent to St. Edward's schools new school then and although he's very shy, he actually gets on really well He plays for the rugby first, fifteen, he becomes head boy So Humphrey Carpenter says the behaviour of Mr. Toad rather than Maul, although Toad, like me is certainly not head boy material, I would say, and he's not shy. Well, you would be a very implausible head boy. I mean, no offense. It's twenty twenty six Dominant catch upp Anyway, he works very hard and he hopes to go to university, but no, his uncle says it's a waste of time and money and so gets him a job at the Bank of England instead, which I think is so sad in a way. So is this a big disappointment to him? It's hard to know, but I think tellingly, he basically breaks off relations with most of his family from this point. And he's a very self contained person anyway, and that's another thing that I like about him to be honest. But you're dising the Bank of England but actually when he joins the bank good job. It's a good job. So he's nineteen years old, it's eighteen seventy nine It's a gentleman C clark They don't do much work and actually Humphrey Carpenter in his book on children's Literature He says O the Bank of England, pandemonium often reigned while business was supposed to be being conducted. The staff ate and drank heavily on the premises, kept ps and amused themselves all hours oblivious of decorum. And this is very like Nicole Alfie produces you say. Yeah, exactly.king on the book. Eating and drinking heavily Yeah. We never do these recordings so. it's incredible. So anyway, he rises through the ranks. he's very good at And he becomes more animals than anyone else Mapes Exactly. More Chapes and he becomes the seecretary of the Bank of England when he's only thirty nine, eighteen ninety eight. Yeah. Yeah. and actually he is I mean, on the surface, he's quite a conventional he seems a very conventional kind of late Victorian warden, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. And then he joins a territorial regiment and he goes to Cornwall and there he's, you know messing around in boats, he's going on w walking holidays, he visits Italy, etcetera. It's having a lovely time. Very kind of the riverbank community from Wind in the Willows. Totally. and moning And the mle camaraderie as well Yeah, and one of his mates is a guy called Mr. Furnnnaval, FJ Furnnaval who runs a rowing club So he's often seen as the model for the water rat. This is Bke Furnnival who says to him You know, you love writing and stuff, don't you, You make up stories? Why don't you send them into the newspapers and magazines? And he does and they get published There's a book of essays that he does called The Pagan Papers, which is all sort it's very sort of CS. Lewisaty Ver fashionable at this time. Totally. It's very, very Edwarding camaraderie. Let's all go for a jolly country walk and then go to a country park and have a foaming pint of ale and be great chaps together in their tweed coats and stuff Think like Bil Bo Bagginenss, Tolkien, Lewis, et cetera, don't think extinction rebellion or Castenbury. It's the opposite of that kind of.'s that kind It's the first kind of kind. Conservative. Not the second. veryery conservative. Yeah, exactly. Th thenen he does some short stories which are published. They're basic children's stories. They're the Golden Age and Dream days. These were about kids being brought up by their aunts and uncles O course he was And they're kind of getting into scrapes and stuff and having fun And because they are a little bit more anarchic than Victorian children's stories, they strike quite a chord. They are very popular in America The future president Theodore Roosevelt is a huge fan of that. I know. The blke whoke invented the teddy bear. I know. Do see parallels all around. So he doesn't he never sees himself though as a professional writer or he doesn't at this time see himself as a professional writer though, does he Because he's very and he's very shy like he's just a gentleman amateur and he's very shy of publicity and is keen to guard his privacy. And well, he's keen to guard his privacy from one class of person above all else. Yeah. And actually these are some of the most These are terrible people. And unfortunately he meets one of them and falls into thisitches And this person is a woman So he has basically shunned women completely and not for any, you know, he's not there's absolutely never the slightest suggestion that he's gay before if that occurs to any listeners. And it's his childishness as well, isn't it? You know, sex and women don't really fit into this you know, fantasy world that he retreats into. He really is an eight year old boy who just when people say to him, oh, there are going to be some women. he's like, what are no You know, they breaks down to a sweat it stops waking Exactly, and he's made it almost to forty unscathed And then he falls into the clutches of a literary superfan. Oh God. That's a terrible thing. It is a terrible thing. G Elspeth Thompson And Elspeth Thompson is from a rich family and she's sort of hung around on the fringes of the London literary set. She's she's a sort of professional super fan, so she's cultivated friendships with tennis and other writers and things and Everybody who writes about her, all the biographers and critics of Kenneth Graham, say She's terrible So Humphrey Carpenter calls her a ferociously flirtatious blue stocking. And actually you might think, well, this is misogyny, but actually Jillian Avery, in her introuctions to the Penguin Cassics calls her an emotional, garulous feay woman with literary pretensions who later developed into a slovenly eccentric I see pointing at yourself there Sry ? Is this all too close to? Is's just a window into my life And my future Well she's very, well, don't become a slovevenly eccentrate whatever you do. I't know though, I don't know, who knows. Youck you're on that s. Yeah. Elspeth is very needy and demanding and he can't get rid of her And then The weird thing happens. So Kenneth Graam fallce ill When he falls ill, he's helpless, she starts inviting herself aroundone to see him and look after him. and then he feels he's trapped and he has to marry her. I have to say, I'm always utterly beused when you hear because you know, you hear of this happening sometimes. you know they just kind of fell into a marriage and before he knew it, he was walking down the aisle. surely at some point you just say You know Hsbth? No. No, because he's afraid of emotional attachment And so because of that, he's afraid of any form of emotional conversation He just can't bring himself to have the conversation, I think, and to say, I don't want to marry you because she's come to his house or his flat or whatever When he was ill, he feels compromised. People think of them as a couple I mean, I see yeah by the stands of the day, this has exly My sister apparently saw the announcement in the newspaper and was absolutely stunned and said to him What is this? Who's this? You going go through with you seriously' going to go through with this. And Kenneth Graham replied quote, and I quote, in a tone of the deepest gloom, I suppose so, I suppose so. I am going to go through with it. So other people's marriages usually when you read about other people's marriages in books and you sort of get insight into them, they all sound terrible But this one, I think sounds particularly awful because they basically communicate in baby talk letters. So they write purely in baby talkalk to each other. But how do you write baby talkal, you know?ike give me an example He writes like this. Okaykay I eats what I chooses and what I don't want, I don't and I don't care a damn what they does in Berlin. Thank Godord, I'm British. So he writes in a kind of music ha cockney way and it's spelled phonetically and she writes as like a baby girl backline a is spone kind of way to him That's worse in the ITV series. That's horrible Yeah, and it's very disturbing. Well anyway, they they get married in eighteen ninety nine. And it is an absolute disaster So basically they don't love each other. Well she loves She craves affection from him, which he is never ever going to give her And there is no physical dimension. There' no dimension of You know, even sentiment really all. Um They he just goes off straightway and he goes off boating with his mates and Cornwne and stuff and he doesn't want anything to do with her, which she finds enraging Yeah they clearly have, you know, she complains bitterly to her friends and things. There is no physical dimension to their marriage. likeike she's shocked They clearly have had one encounter. presumably on the honeymoon Because in nineteen hundred she gives birth to a son. So once and once only, I think They basically consummated the marriage. Arguably one time too many ome. Yeah, because this is well, there would be no wind in the Wows without this though. There would be no wind in the Wows. So she gives birth to a baby boy. he's called Alistair, but they call him mouse And his life, I have to say, I was quite harsh about him just now, but it is a tragedy. He's born prematurely, has eye problems, which means that he's left almost blind in one eye and then has a squint in the other. He's very sickly and difficult. but I think this is often the case with kind of sickly difficult children and mothers kind of possibly who you know it was kind of a miracle that they were born at all She puts him, Elspeth puts him on a massive pedestal and is always insisting that he's very talented and amazing. Sos very Petunia Dursley or Cersei Lannister vibes, I would say. Yeah, she spoils him massive well Yeah. and she gives him Unrealistic kind of, you know, an unrealistic perception of himself which is always going to make you unhappy in life, I think. Yeah. They do that thing that some parents do, I think, sort of simultaneously spoiling and neglecting their child. So in others' quite distant parents. when they are with him, they tell him he's brilliant and he's wonderful. and he ends up being an absolute monster football, doesn't he? He's like Hubert Lane Fr Just William, except. He's cheeky he's boastful. he's a terrible show off. He's nasty to other children, He bullies small girls. he doesn't make friends or fit in, and Sam Leith calls him a conceited, spiteful and spoilt little brat People may have expected him to be the inspiration for you know maybe mole in the Wind in the Wows, but no, he's actually the model for toad. And it's insane that that Kenneth Graham based T on his own son. I know that's the mad thing because T the ul like you know immortal slur on your child. Yeah brrutal. You would absolutely expect that Mole because Moul seems to speak for the child, really? Yeah, and he's vulnerable and Exactly, but no So this is how the Wind in the Willows is born as basically bedtime stories for this boy mouse. And we know this from the mad baby talk letters that Kenneth Graham is still writing to his wife. So even though they basically I don't know, sleep separate room or stuff. They're still write to each other in the baby talk. All they have left is the baby talk. And this is in nineteen oh three. So mouse is three years old And Kenneth Graham says to Elsborth There was a story in which a mole, a beaver, a badger, and a water out. These are all spelt, by the way, kind of phonetically because it's part of the baby talk In which a mole, a beever or a badger and a water was characters, and I got them terribly mixed up as I went along. But E always straightened them out and remembered which was which. I heard him telling nurse afterwards. And do you know, the mooles saved up all his money and went and bought a motor car So clearly at this point the story is a very garbled versions of what becomes the Winter of the Willows because the moould is beyind the car there. By the time Mouse is four, the stories that he's being told are about Mr. Toad and his adventures. The joke here is that Tad is mouse. Toad is you. you know, I'm telling you the stories about yourself. And animal stories are very fashionable at this point. So this is Beatrix Potter time. Beatrix Potter published Peter Rabbit in nineteen oh two, so two years before this And in nineteenh three, I think They launched the first licensed merch in history, which was Peter Rabbit Yeah And then in the spring of nineteen oh seven, Graham and Elsabeth they go away to Cornwall for a break, while Mouse's governness takes him in for a separate holiday in Littlelehampton, which is strange in Sussex. And then while they're away, Kenneth Graham is writing Mouse a series of fifteen letters. and in those he continues the adventures of Toad and refers to him as a low bad animal os And in these you totus fake being kidnapped by brigands and writes a ransom demand but then really runs away and he steals a card. He basically has all the adventures that are familiar from the second half of the Wind and the Willows, you know the police, the court, the jailer's daughter And so they appear in the book almost unchanged, the tone being a picuresque eighteenth century rom And then Maouse's governness keeps these letters and they're reprinted at the end of the Penguin Classics Eedition. They indeed. But they are at this point just fun. He never imagines anyone else will ever see them. And then at the end of august nineteen oh seven, he's visited at home by an American journalist and she is called Constance Smedley. and she lives nearby. and her editor at E everyverybody's magazine in Philadelphia has told her to kind of form a relationship with Grahem to worm her way in and get him to write something for the American market because his Gilden age kids stories were so popular. And she somehow she manages to wrangle an invitation to the house And it turns out that Elspeth, you know, she's very know, has aspirations of being very literary minded, has read her novel an April Princess so they kind of chat about that. And secretly, Constance is a feminist, but she has to keep that quiet because this is not a household in which Yeah, that conservative household. Yeah. Exactly. So she's invited back and on a later visit, she overhears Kenneth Graham telling a bedtime story to mouse. And it's the one about the riverbank animals. and she says, Well, why did't you turn these bedtime stories into a book And he says, no So he hated writing, it was physical torture. Why should he undergo it? But then she finds out perhaps from Mouse about the toad letters and she says, Well, come on, you've already written it. So she works on mouse whichich is slightly odd. Wors though. It does work and tells him to turn the letters into a book. And he loves the idea, I mean, obviously not minding at all that it's kind of all about the worst side of his nature. Yeah And he persuadays Kenneth Graham to change his mind. And so finally he says, yeah, fine, I'll do it. But you can see why that would work, right? Because she's basically saying to the little boy, Oh, don't you think your daddy should turn these letters into a book? W wouldn't it be wonderful to see it published What child is ever going to say no to that? Of course they're going love the idea. And so Kenneth Graham says, fine, I'll do it. And in autumn, nineteen oh seven He starts to turn the letters to mouse and the bedtime stories into a book. And so the genius of the Wind in the Willows really is its blend of different ingredients. So you've got first of all the stories of mole and rat messing around in boats on the river bank And it's male friendship in this kind of idealised rural England, in this kind of country idle, all of this. L the stuff that we were talking about, country walks, and kind of picnics and great japes and all of that U So you know, it's a bit it's very much to what you mentioned Tolkien, it's very much the world of the hobbits,n't it? Yeah orr tea with Mrter Tumnness in The Lion of the Witch in the wardrobe. Yes, it is. It's that cozy? Well, CS Lewis and J R. Tolken would both undoubtedly read the wind of the Willows. Yeah. I mean, so they would have sort of, even if they're not necessarily modeling what they write on it They would they would have drunk of the same waters, I guess. Yeah And then you have second ingredient toad, his brush with the law, his escape his return to claim his house, the Odyssey elements of the book And then the stuff that then Kenneth Graham puts in after that which is the We've already mentioned These strange melancholy, almost mystical kind of chapters. so mole signing for his home Pining for the sea, the two animals meeting the go Pan, all of this. So he's combined all these different elements, He gives it to, you know, his agent and Constance Smedley. And absolutely Nobody wants to publish this at all. They're like, this is bonkers. What is this? Yeah. So basically Publishers say animals up in human clothing. Right. Publishers say, what the hell? What's all this with the animals? Like why have you not written stories about kids So even though the Beatrix pot is crazy's going I mean, the Patrix Potter stories are very different. They're aimed obviously a much smaller reader. And also the illustrations lead the way. So if you have that as kind of a visual guider, it's a bit different. And also they're very obviously whimsical and they're slight and they're you know, there's no no vague realism in the project's part which Pagan gods. No pagan gods. So everybody's magazine, when Constant Smelly says, Well, this is the result of my labours, they're like, what we don't want this? Kenneth Graham's agent tries various magazines. they all say no. Lots of publishers say no, eventually Mthew and say Fine, but this is so mad. We won't give you an advance. They give him a deal which basically has a sliding scale of royalties, a very sharply sliding scale of royalties Instead of an advance, that works out brilliantly for him because he and his in the Bodleing library, which is his heir ultimately They end up making tons of money from this from this deal. Anyway, no one can see that coming at the time then there's the issue isn't there with the title? So the tit so often that with so many of the books we've done in this podcast The original title was Matt. Ch insane. Yeah. Yeah. The laapping of the stream I mean good. I like the al the other alternative which was the Children of Pan. I quite like that Children the pan there, but it's not what the book is I mean,or' the wind of the Willows, I. No, that's one tiny part of it. And then the other title that they kick around is River folk Which I guess I don't have that Yeah, bit bland. Finally though, they settle on the wind in the Reeds, which is a reference to the Pan chapter. You can see there how the Pan thing is such a big part of this for Gram. Yeah. And then this is what's used in adverts and stuff like that. But then Mathew and decide it's too similar to the W WB Yates' poem The Wind Among the Reads. So they amend to the alliterative The Wind in the Willows, which does sound good. Well we're used to it though now, aren't we? Yeah, I suppose, I suppose. I think we're just so used to it being called the Wind in the Willows that it never ocurs to question. Very silververy though, I like it Well, I think the ititerative side of it is really important. It justps it does drip off the tongue. Anyway, so it comes out nineteen oh eight And guess what It's a damp squib. like People are just completely baffled by it And sometimes whenever you go online you see, you know when people did like the top ten worst reviews, most misguided reviews in literary history, The Wind in the Willows is often one of them because there was this hilarious review in the Times literary supplement. which said, As a contribution to natural history, the work is negligible I mean, how you could read this thinking it was meant to be a natural history book. This is insane ye. And the guy who wrote the review said This book is mad. water A water rat doesn't use a boat to cross the street. Why would a water rat need a boat? makes no sense? Quote, No doubt moles like their abods to be clean. But whitewashing? arere we very stupid or is this joke really inferior? So this is the most literal minded rime in the world. to say his complaint is Moles don't paint their burrows. This is The imagination of a milk jug and the whit of a. Yeah, exactly. Dving To, driving a car. That's not possible. I know And actually the review goes on to say, it's a book with hardly a smile in it. Ironically. Yeah, which we wander in a haze of perplexity, uninterested by the story itself and at a loss to understand this deeper purpose. And then the writer does say something which I think is not unreasonable The puzzle is for wh whoom is the book intended? Grown up readers will find it monotonous and elusive. Chren will hope in vain for more fun Now maybe we can talk about this ty bit more after the break, but the reviewer is not wrong there. This is a very strange book because it is way above most children's reading level. Yeah. But obviously it's a story about animals dressing up in human clothes. Yeah. And so not a book for adults. As in if you're thirty, you're not going to read this book I don't know I enjoy it. but yeah, course we're read it in the knowledge that it iss a classic. The first readers would be like, whoo's this for? I'm completely baffled by this. Yeah. But anyway, the mad thing is it starts to become a success through word of mouth, doesn't it? So people clearly like it. It does speak to somebody. Publish's dream Yeah It's just a success in America because our old friend president Theodore Roosevelt massively champions it. He tells Kenneth Graham, I have read it and reread it and have come to accept the characters as old friends. and I am almost more fond of it than your previous books. And I get what he means there. I like what he says about them being old friends because that's how it does come to feel. And it's reprinted every year for the next two decades, sometimes twice a year And then in nineteen twenty nine there ass a real turning point because it's adapted for the stage by A A Miln in Toad of Toad Hall and this is the guy that wrote Winnie the Poo. So it must have been an inspiration slightly on the Winnie the Pooh stories, which obviously the similar thing anthropomorphised animals and and And what theyre do in Too Totall is they take out all the stuff. The etereial stuff. Yeah. They slim it down. so it focuses on the adventure story as it were and on the banter and the Japes and all of that kind of thing. and they take them all mystical stuff and they just So it's more accessible and then it becomes a Christmas pantomimine standard. And then there's a Disney version in nineteen forty nine. That is the backstory for the book But we haven't actually delved into the book itself, which we will do after the break And we'll also be digging into how the story reflects Kenneth Graam' childhood unhappiness, his miserable marriage and the you know, is it we'll be exploring Is it an allegory for Edwardian class politics or something darker And then the ultimate question at the heart of this episode Are you Dominic Mle, rat, badger, or toad. And what am I And actually the other big question, why does toad have hair? That's what really perplexes me. Anyway, all this after the break Your summer weekends fill up fast, but Crocs has your back. Road trips, beach days, last minute getaways, whatever's on the agenda, swing by your local store and find your new goat too Try it, style it, make it yours. becausecause the right pair doesn't just show up It shows off Walock out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crox store today Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy moocha Rrappuccino drink? or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe, orr white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Chronic migraine, fifteen or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life In Botox, onabacha Linum tooxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with fourteen or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection sideite pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lugarics' disease, myasthenia Gravis or Lamberd Eaten syndrome and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit Botoxchronicmigraine. com or call one eight hundred four four Botox to learn more Welcome back to the book Cub and before the break we promised that we'd be delving into the wind in the Willows itself. Kenneth Graham, writing to thank President Theodore Roosevelt for his kind words about the Wind in the Willows in nineteen oh nine, said, It was a book with no problems, no sex, no second meaning. It is only an expression of the very simplest joys of life. And they are, I think, very kind of English joys. There's a great deal of kind of sardine action, but it's all very simple, basically is what he saiding. There's no deeper meaning U and He is definitely right about kind of the lack of sex in it and, you know, the absence of women or complications or anything like that. But the question is, is he right? you know, is he being honest? Is there really nothing going on beneath the surface? I don't think he's right, Temmy. Otherwise it will be a very short podcast releasast short by our standard. That would be great to be honest That's right here. Never gonna happen. N gonna happen. come on So First of all, the world of the book. So the world of the book is a very Edwardian escapist fantasy. So this is an age, you know, they think the eighteen nineties, nineteen hundreds, nineteen tenens, it's an age when writers and artists constant revolt against what they see as kind of industrial urban modernity. So For more than a generation, kind of going back to the Paphelites and John Ruskin and stuff, people have idealized the kind of pastoral English landscape, the natural world, all of this, it's an escape from the horrors of the city and from factories And there's sort of there's been a huge cult in England of nature writing. And is this is a perfect example of that, I would say. So the first chapter, you know when Maul comes out of his hole Yeah, I was really struck when I was reading it to Arthur to my son years ago It's beautiful writing actually. you know he comes out and he says it all seemed to be too good to be true. Hither and thither through the meadows, he rambled busily, along the hederows, across the copses, finding everywhere birds building, flowers budding, leaves thrusting, everything happy, progressive and occupied. And there's this sort of sense that this is The Rriver bank is paradise. It's untouched by the industrial Revolution or any of these kinds of things. It's just This kind of arcadia that people have been dreaming of for the last few decades in England and that those first readers in nineteen oh eight They would have recognized this and they would have said, gosh, this is you know, it's a bit like even as late as you know, we did nineteen eighty four and we did their thing about Winston Smith and Jud escaping to the countryside and there's kind of dapple glades and all of that kind of thing. I mean, that's a sort of late example of that. I think this same tendency to basically have a really romantic fantasy of the sort of early twentieth century countrys It's often produced by people like Kenneth Graham who live in the suburbs or live in the city. They see the countryside as a place to escape to, a sort of refuge from the open world, I suppose. Yeah, definitely. So you've got that And then you have the talking animals as characters. That's probably, you know, for the late Victorian Edudian audiences reading this book probablyro slightly less standard, even if we're used to it now SS standard? I know you don't like it. You don't like talking animals, do you? whichich I find mad. I can see the coziness of it. I just can't get invested, although This time I did, anyway. I mean we mentioned Beatrix Potter. So people have started to get used to it with Beatrix Potter from nineteen oh two We know that Kenneth Graham read Beatriich' Potter stories to Mouse. But the appeal of the animals, I think, to him is that he can, I mean, he's very blunt about it when he's writing about this book He says I used the animals because I wanted the book to well, First of all, there are no parents. there's no mother figure. There is no teacher. There is no authority figure. There's nothing about school or about work or anything like that. You can completely get away from that and it can be a childlike fantasy. But Kenneth Graham explicitly said by simply using the animal I wanted to get away at once from weary sex problems and other problems. just and just do jolly things without being suspected of preaching or teaching. Now this is twice now. that he has mentioned about the sex getting away from sex. you can see that He has no shame. I saying to people, I think sex is a terrible thing and we should avoid it at all costs. And also this is a man who was just desperate to kind of spend his time you know ub with the lads, I don't know, these days of watching the football or whatever it may be. He wants to be in that kind of carefree ecosystem. He doesn't want the pressures of you know, family, woman. All those things. Hes complely That's like thing again, I think. He's completely the person in your kind of friendship group who when everybody starts coupling up with they when girls are introduced or women he's really depressed because he thinks, gosh, the aband is being broken up. Th terrible people, these women have invaded it and messed up for everybody. There's no one to fight a Budapass with anymore. All Exactly. exactly. That's very much his thing. Basically he wants to be on the river Rowing with his mates. I mean, obviously the first reviewers found all this very weird. and I think that's something we kind of now overlook becausecause the world building how mad and kind of inconsistent it is. And they pulled this out and obviously the wind in the willow is such a accepted part of kind of literary culture that no one thinks of it. So the animals are at once, animals and people. They change size accordingly. So when toad drives, he has no trouble kind of reaching the pedals around He's human size, cle. Yeah. When he impersonates a washer womoman, no one looks him and says you're green and you're a toad, they take it totally for granted. Yes. He's basically a human being and I think he's actually the most human of all the animals in many ways, because he lives in a massive hall above the ground, whereas at least mole and ratty or whatever living in He li in Yeah Yeah. oras a massive He lives in a burrow, whereereas he lives in kind of a towered mansion that you know What's the relationship here between the humans and the animals? You know, When they bring up Tad in cour are they like animal Or are they like he's a citizen like any of any el Bacher says at one point you' a very bad name among the humans. Yeah. and we want to kind of stay out of the way of the humans and we keep ourselves to ourselves, but they're kind of living alongside the humans. And what's also really weird is there are some animals who are very clearly animals. So Yes like this horse who pulls the caravan. Yeah is the social hierarchy there You know, Is he a serf? Is he an equal? Stuff like this. The other thing is we find hedgehogs having porridge and fried ham for breakfast Fredchogs eating pigs I know, Fredchogs eating pigs. Are're dealing with cannibals here. Has all morality totally you know, being thrown out the window. In his barrow, Badger has eggs. he has hams. Hams again. Badger living underground eating egg so sinister. Rat in his picnic. Yeah. he has know when he does a huge list of everything he has that includes cold chicken, cold tone, cold ham, cold beef. So the rat is eating beef? Yeah Are they eating their friends? You know, what's going on here? Some of them disturbing. It is disturbing. Also some of them some of them wear clothes and some don't. So is this like a particularly open minded society Yeah Tot is tweed. the horse is't wearing clothes. Yeah, well, the horse has taxs So what's up with that? Is that like, you know Yeah is's a repressed creature. The otter is always naked and some of them hibernate as well Yes. So that's an animalistic feature that's come through. Very confusing, but most chillingly of all, towards the end of the book, Yeah Toad is described combing his hair He is. He parts his head, doesn't he? So Tad, there are a couple of mentions in the book of Toes Like, is it a twopeay Is it a wig? The Illustrator doesn't lean into that, I think wisely. No, no, that's actually so true. And even the ITV series, what you mock is the fluffy Puppets series They don't have they don't get e that. But the thing is you see a child when they read that They just take it all for granted. They don't It doesn't occur to them for a minute. this wouldn't work or wouldn't. It's a bit like you know, Bill Bber Baggins has coffee Where's the coffee from? Yeah' No one says, come on. I mean, maybe an adult does in a very pedantic way, but nobody I don't think people This is why the wrong people reiewing the Wind of the Willowers because they were taking it yeah, they thought it was a work of natural history. Yeah, it obviously isn't Now the other things that are a bit inconsistent and that a moln publisher would surely hate Kenneth Graham can't make up his mind. Who the hero is When the book starts, we see it through Mule's eyes, Muould is us really, Muould is the child, particularly, he's vulnerable, and he's nervous and all of that. We'll come onto the characters a little bit later But halfway through the book it's as though Kennet Graham has lost interest and's decided that Toad is actually the hero. I know. Be we follow Toad completely. And Rat, I know you like rat, but Rat is off stage for huge chunks of the I' at you, I guess Yeah But they're all off stage for sections of the book I sections except the second half where toad really dominates her. Yeah And then the other thing is that Kenneth Graham clearly hasn't really worked out who the book is for. because He wrote a blurb for the publisher and he said it is perhaps chiefly for youth And that's so vague and evasive like perhaps chiefly, come on, make your mind up. Because I guess when you're telling these stories to a child, you know when he was reading them to mouse, the kind of sophistication of the language wouldn't necessarily be there. So it just would straightforward be for a child for a child But then you write it down and it's He adds those two slightly strange ethereal chapters and the writing is so sophisticated. So far he loses traction, I guess Well, yeah, I mean, this is the second paragraph. I looked at the first page. this is the second paragraph of the whole book The sunshine struck hot on his fur, soft breezes caressed his heated brow, and after the seclusion of the cellarage he had lived in so long, the carol of happy birds fell on his dulled, hearing almost like a shout. Jumping off his four legs all at once, in the joy of living in the delight of spring without his cleaning, he pursued his way across the meadow till he reached the hedge on the further side It is lovely writing. It's lovely. It's really nice writing It's obviously mad to think that a six or seven year old or eight year old which said the Ages where you would read a book talking Animals that they would be capable of reading that. Yeah. Compare this to the writing in the Chronicles of Narnia, for instance. Or Harry Pter. So so panned that well, we actually compare this to Harry Potter, didn't we You're saying It' it's more complex It's So much more sophisticated. I suppose the counter argument would be I did read this when I was a small child, and what I must have done, even though I don't really remember doing it, is what all children do, which is just to skip the bits that you don't, the words that you don't use Or do your eyes just slightly glaze over those bits and you move on quite quickly? I think children Children read in ways that we don't that we lose touch with when we're adults. They actually so much of what they read is new to them. You know, there are so many words they don't know They don't find it weird that the word caress or selarage or seclusion Are there in a book about talking animals? becausecause they're like, Yeahah, of course there's going to beds we don't know. You take for granted, don't you? And I suppose you just take the imagery away with you the animals because I think that's the thing, the lasting appeal of this book It's clearly down not just to the escapist world, but I think specifically the characters. So as we've said, Toad is a jokey portrayal of Alistter and most critics agree that the other three, so Mul, Rat and Badger are all different aspects of Kenneth Graham's own self image, theirre versions of himself, the versions that he'd like to be also different sides of English society and national character and I think also human nature. becausecause isn't this this is a famous thing, isn't it that well, traditionally it was every Englishman is one of those characters. i. e, you know, that's telling because he's, you know, whatever class he's from, whatever where he learands Yeah I think it's true of anyone. think I think everyone is made up of all these characters. You can go through your own friends and people you know. You could go through the Gohanger office and say, arere you a mole, a rat, a toad? It's full of wild wooders, just endless. I mean there's a lot of toads, let's be honest.. So if we start with mole, so moole is the character we begin with I think he's a brilliant way to introduce children to this world because We're emerging from darkness into daylight He's kind of blinking and trying to make sense of the world. He's shy, he's anxious as children are He's modest, he's nervous. in his in sort of class terms Mole is very middle class. Yeah He has all the anxieties of the kind of respectable, you know, he wants to be respectable, he wants to do the right thing There's a sort of suburb inside to him, so later on when we go back to his borough, It's described as having these this decorations a plaster statuary. He's got a statue of Garibaldi. He's got a statue of some biblical characters, he's got a statue of heroes of Italian unification, bizarrely. And I so strange Of Queen Victoria. And I think the joke here is that these are the kind of things you would have got in kind of mass produced j stores in the nineteen hundreds. So there were perhaps A little bit suburban, a little bit gauchche. So Yeah, a bitaf. So this is a joke, I think for the parents rather than from the children. And Mole, you know, the heart of Mole's character is the tension between wanting to go up and explore the world. So adventure, all of that And then wanting to go back his love of home. And there's a chapter called Dole Domum It's my favorite chapter. Is it? Yeah. So I was very touched by it. He's gone on this walk, hasn't he or something with rats And he smells his house And he starts crying and he wants to go back to it and he sort of sobs and sobs. And he says to Rat, I know it's a shabby dingon little place. It's not like your cozy quarters or toes', beautiful Hard or all this. But it was my own little home and I was fond of it and I went away it and I forgot all about it. But then I smelts, it's suddenly on the road called out to a rat and rat, didn't hear. I That's very s. Because that's you know, when you were a child, I remember this feeling really, really homesick. my first ever sleepover or something and calling out for my mum And they're just not there Yeah no one hars you and you just want to be elsewhere. so I think it's really moving. It is moving and then at the end You know, he sort of, he reaches a kind of state of equilibrium. He says he doesn't want to abandon the new life and its splendid spaces to turn his back on sun and air and all they offered him and all of this, but it was good to think that he had this to come back to, this place which was all his own. these things which were so glad to see him again and could always be counted upon for the same simple welcome. I think that's really I agree with you. I think it's really sweet and it's really and it does express You know, in this sort of childlike way The tension within all of us between wanting to go out and have fun and to see the world and have adventures, and wanting to come home and curl up in front of the fire. I think also in a way, Mool is the most believable character because he's very fearful and vulnerable, but also he forces himself to kind of go beyond the boundaries of what he considers to be safe and comfortable. So in a way he's actually the bravest because he confronts his fears every time and he does this thing where at the end when they have to face these enemies that have taken over one of their houses. He dresses up as a woman, M drag, dresses up as a woman and infiltrates this house of enemies and tricks them into being frightened and gets plays mind bls with them. So Harha Mul Yeah he's great. Now what about Rat? So then there's Rat. Yeah He's the one I think I do like Rat. He's the one I think everyone really wants to be Right. So he's socially a cut above mole He has much more social ease. he's sociable He has more friends and he's already pals with the local landowner, so this is mister Toad. and Moolle is very differential to him. So for instance in the chapter that we just discussed, and he's more and more of an upper middle class gentleman of leisure. So he's messing around in boats, he has no financial or domestic cares or ties, he has a massive stockpile of weaponry. He does and sandwiches. shop He has, you know, he has a vast picnic Lots of different meat and sandwiches, so eating more of his friends Ginger beer, soda water, he's very well off. He's also a more complicated character because he's shrewd and he's practical. I actually think he's a bit of a fuss pot. endearingly. and he is a dreamer and an idealist. So his buried wonderlust surfaces in this chapter called in Wayfarer' All And we'll get ont to more of this later, but In that you kind of see that he's torn between the two sides of his life as they all are torn U and He likes writing bad poetry and he's the first one to hear the music of the go Pan. Y His relationship spiritual side to him. Definitely. And his relationship with Mool is one of the classic early twentieth century fictional friendship. so it's very Holmes and Watson again, I guess. One is always taking the lead, one is sly secondary following in his wake. and Humphrey Carpenter sees this mole wrapp friendship as a celebration of a cheerful bachelor like existence. And this is, you know, that shared by Kenneth Graham and his friends where I was messing around in boats and jaunts to fo in Stuff like that exactly Exactly. And they're sort of the world of picnics in the world of all this. Yeah. And there's a sort of understated Well, it's very Holmes in Watson So the moment when Rat first says to Mol Look here, I think you better come and stop with me for a little time. and I'll teach you to row and all of this. And Mole is so touched he can't answer and he we're told he had to brush away a tear or two with the back of his paw And ultimate romance. Yeah, that' well, that's very like when Dr. Watson realizes that Sherlock Holmes actually does like him and cares about him And he can't he can barely speak. he's kind of choked up with emotion. I think it's very kind of similar thing. So you've got these two mates and then the against them is set the Jeopardy, the threat And this is made explicit to Mole. Mle says to Rat, what's over there And Rat says, it's the wild wood. You know, we don't go there very much. We river bankers. And the wild wood is inhabited by the weasels and the stoats and the ferrets A lot of the critics who have written about the wind of the Wows think that the W W basically represents proroletariat, the working classes, social disorder You know, that when Mole does go there and he does go for a walk and gets lost, it feels a bit like a sort of You know, a man from the home count is a well healed man from the home count is going into the state Wandering into Archway. Right. Yeah Well I've been more thinking that kind of in the nineteen hundreds, if they went into the East E and they saw the sort of faces glaring at them from the rookeries and the slums or whatever No know, that's the sort ofictor late Victorian Edwardian nightmare You know, that you'll be lost in this underworld. So the worldwood could be that, it could be social. Humphy Carpenter suggests the worldwood might be the subconscious M be I mean, that's the thing that Kenneth Graham fears most of all is kind of sexuality you know, maturity, sensuuality or this kind of thing. His wife's domain. It actuallyly his wife'somain, somethingomet like that. But I think that scene we that moment when Maul gets lost in the wildwood and then he He finds his way to Badger's house As a child, I loved that because there's something about being lost and then found that really speaks to you as a child And that sort of sent that the The coming into the kind of the warm heth and having the tea when you've been freezing outside terrified and sobbing in the snow. Yeah I mean, when you're six or something, that happens to you all the time basically. Your parents have dragged you on a walk or something. Yeah. And then finally you get home and you're rewarded with a hot chocolate and whate. Yeah. I'd always run away and hope to be found. so Right I can relate. Yeah And then and also when you when you do make a home or whatever, there's always that know safe parental guardianian figure to make you feel like you're in the realm of safety again. And in this that is Badger, who's the other major character of this story. And Carpenter calls him the still centre around which the book's various storms may rage, and he's scarcely touched by them And he's clearly a cut above them both socially. He's a kind of elderly aristocratic gentleman from an old family, and he knew Tad's father and all the other animals defer to him and he's venerable and wise and well respected. But he's also gruff shy, serious, he's a font of wisdom and common sense. and he has I mean massive natural authority. I mean the opening reading that we did, that was him confronting Tad for his bad behaviour. And he lives in this huge rambling ancient house or Wren and it's the great country house and its estate dominating the villages with literally ancient foundations. I mean, we don't need to mass to go into this Bave in his kitchen. It's described explicitly as like an Anglo Saxon hall. So it seemed a place where heroes could fitly feast after victory or beerary harvesters could line up before along the table, blah blah, blah blah blah. There's a sense that Badger represents kind of English history and a kind of I mean, he's living amid ruins, right? And he's old He's old England. He completely is And he interestingly is not in the more weird chapters because het fit. He's too commonsensical, he's too gruff, he's too grounded, too sensible So these two chapters are ones that as a child I was used to skip. I just thought this was so brilliant Yeah, because I was interested in the addventures of Ton.. I liked. And actually they are cut from the theatrical adaptations They are typically cut from the T from the TV thing that you don't like madly. Yeah. they're not in that. So the first one is the piper at the gates at Dawn. This is Mool and rats go looking for this lost otter, baby called Portley. It's beautiful kind of nature writing. It is such beautiful writing. It really is. The moon last over the rim of the waiting earth, the moon lifted with slow majesty till it' swung clear of the horizon and rode off free of moorings and blah, blah, blah blah blah. Yeah, they see the landscape lit up in the moonlight. Then they hear this strange melody Rat is described as rapped, transported, trembling. He's literally entranced by this melody U He's that Oh mole, the beauty of it. Row on mole row. the music and the call must be for us They keep rowing. Mole hears the music too, and then at the break of dawn, they see this god pan you know, the sort of, um or Roman gods And he's cradling the lost Otter Han is described as a very Qite Homo Rossa, isn't he? Well he's very kitch, I think. So I mean, literally he's got these kind of rippling muscles, shaggy limbs And they kneel and they worship him And I think this is the one bit of the book that's massively dated. because the Edwardians, thedwardians love the figure of Pan They are fascinated by kind of paganism and by nature gods and things And yeah a piece of Pan, obviously named after Pan And they were really into this sort of pagan mysticism as a rejection of the modern Whereas to us, this just looks a bit bizarre And I think most critics now, I mean, one calls it. ghastly error in taste. Another calls it an error of judgment on a ground. So I don't know. I actually quite liked it. I always like a little bit of an etereal element and it reminds me, J what it reminds me of Tom Bumbudill Yes, that's a great comparison actually. Yeah. I't really like Tom Bompadil It's like a mad chapter. You can't understand what it's doing there. And the center is this sort of nature spirits who doesn't seem to belong in the rest of the world? I quite like it. I like that, you know, I think it's quite profound the spell they come under and this sense of kind of an existectual force governing their lives or whatever. I actually do, and I think the writing is so beautiful. But then there's a second odd chapter that doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the book. This is the one we mentioned earlier Wayfare is All and it dramatizes the theme of escape and homecoming that has undoubtedly obsessed Kenneth Graham all his life. So in this, the rat is restless. He sees that the birds are migrating, that everyone's getting ready for the change of season. He tries to persuade the swallows not to go and he feels a newborn need for travel and adventure and going beyond the downs and It's a massive change of kind of pace for a character that's otherwise very content in himself and his life. And he meets this Sa rat and is thrilled by these stories that Searat tells him about his journeys around the Mediterranean and his voyages and these you know glittering adventures. And he goes into this kind of trance and his eyes get glazed and set. And you know he's like one of Odysseus's mariners seduced by the siren song And he's going home to pack up his bags and jump on the the next boat out, thenen he bumps into mole And Mull basically talks him down. Mul convinces him to stay at home and Stay content about where he is, even though he says, you know the shores they are calling me. So Maul restrains him And then and then brat rat, you know, this you know, socially competent Englishman, essentially, breaks down in tears and he comforts himself by writing poetry and has to console himself with the pleasures of home So it's the usual tension, I guess. It is, but on the other hand, I think it's also an element. too me reading this, especially once I was aware of like Kenneth Graham's Backstory It's as though rat is being tempted by growing up You know, CS growing up as well in the Chronicles of Narnia So So maybe the travel isn't just like travel around the ports of the Mediterranean. Maybe the travel represents You know, rats is being tempted by leaving behind their childhood world Yeah and going to the big the big world out there. with its women and its relationship. Yeah and all of this. And basically Mole says, donon't go rat. you know, stay here with me and our friends. and And actually what Rat literally does is he returns to the world of the imagination because as you said, he writes poetry. he returns to Mld. And it's a sort of, I think this is yet another reminder of just how much Kenneth Graham really hated his wife. It's all about like a dreveful w. It's basically what Kenneth Graham wishes he had done. I wish I hadn't been persuaded by this awful woman to marry her and to you know, go to bed with her and whatever. That was the worst decision I ever made. I should have stayed with my friends messing around in boats. 'causeuse this is an idealised version of life, isn't it really that he's writing in the wom? Comtely And tellingly with no women in it all. So we already said There are no female animals. so the otter who gets lost It's his father who's looking for him, not his mother, mother never mentioned at all. So even among the humans, the only women you see there's a Jailer's daughter and this a comic barge woman and they're just m. They're cartoons really, aren't they? Yeah Yeah. No hint that you could ever meet a woman animal in this book No, no way. unless it's a man animal dressed up as a woman. That's the closest you ever Which brings us very neatly Yeah to most people's favourite character, doesn't it? Yeah Definitely the best known. So this is Mr. Toad. And he's tremendous fun. I think the book absolutely comes alive whenever he's in it, whenever he enters the narrative. And even for those who have never read The Wind of the Willows or even barely aware of it, he's definitely familiar. kind the kind of character he is and his personality is definitely familiar. He's boastful, untrustworthy, greedy, self promoting, but also jolly Enhusiastic, brave, and ultimately good hearted. he's such fun. So a few toad kind of points, he has a very ambiguous class position because he's the Lord of the mananor and we know that his father was mateswith Badger, who's kind of classic old money, respectable old money, you know, an aristocrat, and that Tad Hall has been in their family for at least one generation But then he constantly acts in a very nouveau riche manner. So he wears ld suits He is boastful and showy. He's always talking about how much money he has He is obsessed with bling and the latest fads and gadgets, particularly Pause So I don't know, the question is he perhaps the son of a rich self made businessman or something like that? You know The're not so early a generation of money that he is literally nvao, but He's still not old money Yes, I agree. I agree completely. I think Todad It's There's a sense that he doesn't quite know how to behave and that he's behaving badly. Like that boy that's the clown of the class because he's a bit insecure Yes. Oh completely, that's what Toad is. Is Toad insecure? I don't know I mean. He wants to sing songs and stuff about how brilliant he is. Yes. Al whichich suggests a kind of insecurity. And yet he doesn't seem troubled by excessive self doubt, Do he?ally does. I mean, I think he's a very, very familiar literary type actually. I think he' full stauff Y from the Henry I Fth partart one and two. So as likefulull staff Tad's a liar, he's a cheat, he's a bggot, he's a thief But We forgive him because he's ultimately Genous and kind And he's funny. he's really funny and he's great. He's irrepressible and there's a sort of good natured naughtonist to him. There's another character I mean a character that you know that I love, which is Billy Bunter, the school who is often called the school boy full staff who was in boarding school stories at the time, Edwardam again, you know A thief, a liar, greedy, Bah blah, blah, blah blah, he's the hero and people like him. It's like Horrid Henry. At the end of the book. Of course A the end of the b stories he always has a moment of kind of redemption and atonement, but he does terrible things along the way So Todad is also, I mean, he's also obviously an addict, isn't he? Yeah So there's that hilarious bit when his friends it's like from the opening bit when when they They sort of to have a come to God moment with him and they lock him in his room and he He pulls all the chairs together to make a sort of car and he's going like this So it's like an addict like reaching for the bottle or something Hess shaking and quivering. He has the different stages of addiction And he's and I think if you were being very sort of deep about it, He is pure Iid. He' pure desire and impulse and self indulgence. So Ottter says of him that when he goes boating he has no stability And he has no stability generally. He's addicted to whatever the latest fad is, whatever his latest enthusiasm is. So he was addicted to caravanning, then to cars and whatnot. He has no discipline And I think each of us I mean, we will get on to talk about which characters we most resemble But there is definitely a bit of I mean, surely all human beings have a Mrter Tady. Oh yeah When we get towards the end of our evenings when we have scheduling meetings or whatever, like with Nicole or everyone, I am pure towed. Exactly. What do you think you are the beginning, Taby? I mean comeome on, you're deluding yourself. the venerable Mr. Badger So yeah, the other thing about Toad he is, I know you like this bit. he is Odysseus. Honestly cunning quicksilver Odysseus and then Mr. Toad. I just doesn't it doesn't sit well with me. I do get it. Of course I get it. I get it in terms of, you know The story of the second half is clearly modeled on the Odyssey. Without, you know Penelope and Telemachus the family elements, the sex so to speak But you know the different episodes of his journey home, so his escape from prison, overcoming a series of trials, and then returning home to find his house occupied by Weasels, which is obviously the suitors from the Odyssey Yeah, so and the other thing about this. so on the one hand, it's the Odyssey But on the other hand, there is a kind of political dimension to it because I think When you think about the occupation of Toad Hall, you don't think initially about Penelope' house occupied by the suitors from the Odyssey. No. What it's like, what it's obviously modeled on is something like the French Revolution where all the people have broken into the house, the Soncouulot are broken in and they're helping themselves to the aristocrats wine cellar and all that, which is precisely what the weasels can care. They're ha a banquet, aren't they? when It's that evasion fantasy, isn't it? It is, it's exactly. It's the sort of It's the worst thing that could possibly happen to you if you've got money. You know Basically the lower orders will break in and they'll steal your stuff and all of that. I mean, this is the fantasy The nightm that haunted the Edwardian imagination in an age of like trade unions and the birth of the Labour Party and anarchism and socialism and all of this. Yeah, for a lot of the people who probably bought the Wind and the Willows, this was their nightmare that one day the working classes would kind of break in and steal all their stuff And I think readers in you know, nineteen oh eight would have It's sort of spoken to them, maybe in a way it doesn't speak to us Badger says to Tad this is all your fault Because Badger said to Tad. Yeah, you were letting the side down with your self indulgent behavior You know, you're giving an us animals a bad name You're exposing us to danger You're weakening our defenses. You're making us vulnerable to riot and revolution And that's And so because of that When the animals, when Mol and rat and whatnot They reclaim Toad Hall This is a massive victory for status quo for conservatism So I mean, I didn't you I didn't spot any of this when I was child. You know, I loved the bit when they're in the tunnel And they making their way through the tunnel. Toad is like I what's he doing? is's like dropping his stuff, falling over it. I found it a bit comical actually. You know, badger sending Tad You know, to the back and then sending him to the front because he can't be trusted. It reminded me more of kind of a crocodile of school children visiting the British museum or something. That's completely what it isough at the same time. It's always is behaving like They think they're a war band, but Todad is behaving like the naughty child on the small drib But then also rat's mental arsenal of weapons It's a secret arms dealer. I think it's really cleverly done though, because basically its love weapons. but there's basically They do. I loved weapons as a child. had like a bow arrow. I could get enough of it. Of course. I mean, we used to have so many swords. Beyond belief. Yeah smuggled into the country from around the world. It's o Yeah, don't say that. I don't want to have flipping the customs people come around to reclaim all Athur stuff Anyway, when the animals do break in and they're like firing their pistols and waving their cutasses. I mean no one gets hurt. It's like the A team. No one get no there's no bls. There's no they do bash weasels on the head with cudgels and things, but that's fine. L The melee of it kind of reminded me of so this wonderful Paddington books Whenever Paddington cooks or does something like that, it's always this mad melee of pws and marmalade and flying pants and stuff. It's never really clear what's going on. It's wonderful. It's very like that, exactly, exactly. So anyway So there's that element of it, which is a bit of a daily tle of our fantasy. But then the other The other thing, I think When you get to the end of the book, it's not just the wild wooders, the insurgents, as it were, who've been defeated But actually Toad himself is defeated, isn't he? Yeah Because he's basically fallen back into the clutches of the animals who wanted to tame him and make him behave himself Tad really has tried to escape Tod just tried to go off, driver hiss car, well other people's cars actually behave badly, all of this But the book ends with him put back in his box He's had to give up his cars, he's had to give up his farm. He's not even allowed to give a kind of speech about himself at his own victory speech his own victory banquet, rather Bader has won Badger has tamed him and defeated him and And actually that's true of all Rat has won. Gladstoneon has won exactly. I mean it actually Batcher has got a very Gladstonstonian Rap didn't go abroad Tad didn't get get his car. It's like they'll never grow up. They'll never develop None of one has a girlfriend. No they didn't want girlfriends there did they? No girlfriends. They didn't want a girlfriend. Rat would be the first to get a girlfriend He would. he would. I actually, I think yeah You think Ratt would be a good boyfriend? I don't Mul I don't think Maul would stand a chance, I have to say. Maul's one of these people who someone would say he'd be a nice husband, but not a boyfriend So before we give our final verdicts in the book, we should just tie up actually what happened to Kenneth Graham, because actually that's not An adita mouse. because that really is not a happy story, is it? No It's really not. So Graham had lost his job at the Bank of England just before the book was published Possibly because he fell out with his boss, possibly because he was so distracted by the writing And he's well off, but he seems lonely and sad, possibly without purpose. and you know now I guess there's no distraction. has to spend all his time at home with his wife that he dislikes. So Matthew Dennison says, for hours he walked, often he was alone in the silence of his own thoughts, his days were overwhelmingly empty And what happens to mouse is a genuinely very, very sad story. So he' sent to rugby, he doesn't fit in and he leaves after six weeks friend suggest that he's homeschooled, but his mother insists that he go to Eaton That also doesn't work out, he doesn't fit in. And so eventually he has a breakdown of some kind and he ends up being homeschooled. They get him into Oxford somehow, but he seems to have been very unhappy there too perhaps crushed by the parental expectations, you know of his mother having been told all his life that He was something special. then you go out into the world and people tell you you're not nasty shock, I guess He fails exams, he doesn't make any friends A and then his body is found on a railway line one morning in May in nineteen twenty and he's killed by a train and it's almost certainly suicide which is was really sad really, really sad. And his parents react to that in the classic Kenneth Gran way, don't they they run away. they sort of seek escape, they go to Italy And then they have this sort of very, very Matthew Dennis, I think calls it a recessal basasically a kind of dying fall They just don't do anything Kenneth Graam spends his time going for walks on his own in Elsph She's now, what are the Jillian A we call her a kind of eccentric shabby. Slovenly figure. Eccentric shhabby in Slovenly. Yeah. And he dies. Hennh Graham died of a stroke in nineteen thirty two and he lost left all his royalties to the Bodley in Library in Oxford becausecause obviously it's never anir his mouse takaking his own life. So there's the kind of sadness actually I think that is so, so dreadfully sad Yeah's not And you don't t know, is there a melcholy in the wind of the Willow? I mean, actually I think I think there is. I think there is real melancholy. I don't think it's, you know, the melancholy of a Obviously at this stage of a man mourning his son and mourning his life or anything like that. But I think you get this sense orr maybe it's because I'm reading it. from the perspective of, the present. But I get the sensor out that So a little bit like a narnia how the children are always going to have to go back I get the sense that this is it's a dwindling age. This is a world that can't endure So long And that it's like'sot cars will come and on up ye. It's at the height of every season. Every season is perfect And yeah, the engines are coming, the motor cars are coming. and You know, arere the humans coming? is the law coming, whatever it may be? And I think I think there is a melancholy in that. And whenever they have these Surreal strange chapters. I think those are sad too when they're longing for something great. There is a longing D definitely's definitely theres a longing Anyway, our verdicts in the book and do you know what, we haven't agreed what we're gonna to rank it in. So have you got something in mind? poo? Oh in poop poops Brilliant. God Okay, we're going rank in poop poops out of S. I So first of all, like this is clearly a book that has lasted and books last for a reason It shouldn't work You know, the world buildilding is mad, The tone is very inconsistent But it's incredibly charming. I think it's really funny I think there is something in all the characters for us to love And I think actually Kenneth Graham in the characters expressed something J you know, it's something quite profound about the human condition and about about human nature I think it is beautifully written at times, far in advance of most children's books, I mean, almost any other children's book actually I loved it when I was a child. I loveved rereading it and I would give it a ten out of ten Wow. Oh, that's touching. I agree that I think I genuinely think it does express something profound about the different facets of human nature I think that as a Roosevelt said, they do kind of become your friends, these characters. And even though not a great deal happens, you know, the stakes aren't that high. You're in this childhood fantasy I was so invested in everything that went on and I found bits of it very moving. For instance, when Ottter is looking for his baby son and he's sitting on the bank waiting for him to come home and Mle's homesickness and Tad's occasional condrition, all this, rats wonderlust. The writing is just Beautiful. I mean far and away above any children's book I've ever read. It's still not one of my favourite books So I'd give it an eight out of ten Eight out of ten tab be. That's pretty high I think that's harsh. It's even higher than a court of thorns and roses Yeah, I think I' now ranked Animal action in that as well. Have I ranked this literally twice as high as East of Eden Right, this is madness. Which characters are we? That's the question. Okay, so I'm gonna do yours first. Are you So naturally. Jack. No. So you know what's coming. Yeah all of them in you. You're aome toad No, of course we all do because but you know, you especially because you have The kind of wonderlust and the sociability of Ratty, Tad's love of fine clothes. You live in a manor house I do not. justust be clear to the listeners, I do not live in a manor house. He has a bombastic side, so do you, but you also you're a history badger. and you know, you know a lot. so there's something a badger in. I think your're l mole, possibly. Less mole Yeah, I think. interestnteresting But I think I think if you had to be one D d d I think'd I think you'd be Ratty actually. Oh Yeahabby That's what I want. You too stockpile armaments to sell on the black market. No, I genuinely think so. I think because you're very sociable, you're organized You're confident and you're pretty you know, pretty Decent really And you also have a passion for boating. Thanks. Wow I mean, this is great for my ego by the way. we should do this more often So actually the funny thing is I thought I'd like to be rpp but I am I know that I mised a toad So that's Oh my Godd, that is so self knowing. The rest is therapy. I've got a massive mrter Tad side to me, I think So I have you down as I think you very much present, as it were, to use the jargon as rat. No, sweet. I see very much I think think I think you definitely think of yourself as rats. I so do. And you really, you know, the fun loving, sociable Always sort of boasting about how you've been out in the town and how many parties you've been Totally popular. Right. However Anybody who works with you soon discovers that actually this is only skin deep as it were, or like fur deep B What you've not been boasting about when you've been claiming oh, I've been out of partis and I've got a massive hangover and bl bl bl blah, is that actually secretly You've probably come back home from the party and have been like working really late or something. and like reading mad stuff about Eleanor of Aquitane or whatever. Lve you're exposing me like this. Right. So it's a classic, it's like actually a very modern thing. It's like the difference between someone's Instagram manicured image and the reality. I think there was definitely a rat element to you, but I think you have a very, very pronounced in a mold. I don't know. I actually think that could be fair. and you know Yeah, Moul's a great guy All right, so I'll just give you a sense of what's coming up So next week is Giuseppe Damari D Lamp produces The Leopard, a very different book, a brilliant book, I have to say, arguably the greatest Some people say the greatest historical written'ertain only one of the most reflective. Then we have your choice, Tabby Madeline Miller Ceri we love this book. So back to the Odyssey because we're doing this sort of sort of like an Odyssey special for the movie when that comes up. Then we have John Buckan, The thirty nine Steps. We have Elena Ferrante, my brilliant friend by popular Demand. Yeah, and our producer Nicole is one of her favourites. One of her favourite books. Then we have Alder Huxley Brave New World Again, by popular demand, lots of people have been saying, please do some Hemingway including you Tabby actually.. So we're doing for whom the Bell tolls. So lots to look forward to. Loots to look forward to. All right, great to see you, Molly Thanks, Tade. Bye everybody Poop. Bye.