Timeline for High School Dancers

So what I tell dancers and their families is you have to start earlier takes longer And programs are gonna surprise you. Formmer professional Ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brainy Ballerina podcast I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the DS industry peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your turns Hello and welcome to the Brady Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Kaitlyn Sloan and I am Joined todayay by Ashley Thorndite Ashley is a licensed clinical professional counselor, long time dance educator and founder of Dance and College couounseling where she forges academic planning, career development and holistic support for dancers navigating the College admissions process So today we are doing a deep dive on the world of college dance Ashley and I both have college dance degrees, so we're super passionate about this topic and We also work a lot with dancers to help them discover their next steps. This is going to be a really fun conversation. Before we get into the meat of it, Ashley, can you tell us a little bit about your background and the work that you do through dancec and college counseling Absolutely. and I'm so excited to be here. This is my very first podcast. So I'm glad to do it with you. I have a twisty windy path I actually started dancing when I was fifteen. So one of my high school friends wanted to take a ballet class and didn't want to go alone. So I said, sure I'll go with you and I fell in love. I remember the first time I learned Pse. And within six months, I was dancing six days a week and I had just, I had found my thing So I went to college for dance. I went to the University of Utah, where I was a modern dance major. After that, I moved to New York City. I was only there for a year. It wasn't for me. And then I decided that my undergrad experience hadn't been well rounded enough. And I went and I did a master's degree at the University of Virginia in counseling And there, my emphasis was on higher education. So I had courses in things like college admissions and college student development And Charlottesville is a super artistic place. So while I was there, I met the woman who's now my business partner in college counseling. We met in a yoga class. I looked at her feet and at the end of class, I was like Are you a dancer? and we've been friends ever since And we partnered with a musician, Peter Swanson, who I've collaborated with for over two decades now. And we were choreographing, dancing, teaching, doing all of the things while I was also doing as social service work. It was really great. And then I will, as you can tell I love school. so I went for more. I went to the Ohio State University where I was the first person to do a PhD in dance studies at a really intensive experience, lots of practice, a lot of dancing, a lot of deep intellectual inquiry and really amazing connections with faculty members, but mostly with my cohort of other graduate students I' still connected to that group of amazing dance professionals After I finished my PhD, it was two thousand eight, the financial crisis collollege dance programs, we're all having hiring freezes I did a lot of adjuncting several years of adjuncting and being a visiting professor. And that was the moment where I was teaching pilates to support myself. And the one thing I'll say about dancers is like We're scrappy. We don't mind hard work. We will clean toilets to get free class. We will teach pilates the year after we earned a PhD. So and I loved it. I met amazing people. like teaching pilates in Washington D C is so fun. I still do it And then I just decided Okay I'm not a university professor, which is what I thought was the plan. But I've had this idea forever, which was a nonprofit organization. I kind of thought it would be my research agenda when I was a professor, but instead it became a nonprofit that brought together professional dance artists college dance majors and middle schoolers. And for ten years, we ran these amazing programs around the country This nested mentoring model focused on dance teaching, dance education, and leadership and career development So through that, I got to know lots of different dance departments, students from lots of dance departments And over those years, I also started informally mentoring and advising students on colleges and also helping colleges think about how they were structuring and restructuring their curriculum. And Than around like I had turned forty. it was time to close. The nonprofit had just had done what it was meant to do. I just wanted a shift. My family moved abroad for a few years Peter and I had a piece at Millennium stage at the Kennedy Center, which just felt like really wonderful experience and say I just wanted to change. And so that was when I kind of cycled back to that master's degree in counseling that I had done, had to take a few more courses, take my board exam. That's when I became a licensed psychotherapist. and now I'm able to Balance one part of my life is therapy and clinical work and I also do a lot of lectures on mental health for dancers other piece of my life is dance and college counseling where I help dancers and their families think about dance as a route to college, a route to a career, connection point of a way of knowing in the world. and I love it. I love what I do Yes. So the college admissions process is very complex. especially for dancers Can you talk about what makes applying to college as a dancer so different from the traditional application Absolutely. So what I tell dancers and their families is you have to start earlier takes longer And programs are gonna to surprise you. The difference in the application process is that it is different for almost every school and program. It's really different. Like musical theater is pretty standardized in dance. It's just like wild West. You really need to research programs and then look deeply into their application process. So a lot of schools have auditions, but those auditions can include They range from some are just a ballet class, some are five different styles, an interview, and a solo. You know, it's just a huge mix. It's a stressful process and students see their peers their student athlete peers, they start way earlier, but they're done way earlier. They're committing in junior year. And then some of their academic focused peers, purely academic might ED somewhere So then they're kind of one and done. But with dance, you really need to take your time because you learn so much about yourself as a dancer through this process And each dance department has a different Lens has different opportunities and it has a a different sort of ure. So starting to see where you fit and what you want and where the connections are is, it can be a pretty time consuming process Yes. and What I think a lot of families or dancers don't always realize is they have to get admitted into the university academically and the dance program and they're separate. so you make get into one and not the other. And so I think the normal recommendation for your average student is maybe like six to eight universities. But for dancers, I always say to apply to more because you have to get to both programs So it can be a little bit trickier I agree. So having a wider range, is also really important for dancers to have a really balanced list, to understand who they are academically, to have some insight into who they are technically and artistically It also depends at some institutions. The Dance department has a lot of say and sway with academic admissions. In some institutions, it is a completely separate process. Some places you find out all at the same time, some places you might find out one far before the other and just be waiting. So understanding your academic profile, understanding your artistic profile and understanding that that those are two two different ways of looking at who you are as an individual What are some of the common mistakes that you see dancers make when they're approaching the college application process? Let's be honest. The biggest mistake is that families, dancers and parents start looking at schools before they look at their budget and understand the college financing landscape It's complex and its there are some really expensive schools that are great and there's some people that It is not a stressor to pay for them. However, there are a lot of incredibly affordable schools amazing dance programs. And dance is not a field where you can sustain a whole lot of student debt So I think understanding kind of what you're working with and being grateful for whatever your family has to offer you, whether it's financial support, whether it's ity bitty bit of financial support, maybe it's none, but they have to help you figure things out. We work with a number of pro bono students as well. So kind of understanding college financing it's also a lot different. I'm forty eight. It's a lot different than those of us with college bound kids. When we were young, students could take out a lot of debt. Now there are limits on that, which I actually think is good, but it means that parents are sometimes surprised they would be the one taking on debt. So kind of understanding finances Yeah, one thing I tell a lot of parents is when they're starting this process to get really clear on how much they're willing to willing and able contribute financially, physically, and emotionally. and talk to your dancer about that can we do for you? This is how much financially we can support you. This is how much we can physically help you, get to your auditions, move into college, all those things. This is how much emotional support I'm able to offer you when you're going through this. And having that boundary super clear at the beginning helps the entire process goes so much smoother because now You're not going back later and having all these hard conversations when things come up, it's like we talk about this and now we can move forward with a really clear plan Totally cllarity is kindness. It's better to know what you're working with and go from there. And then like together we can get so excited about so many parameters. I always start the process with a parent session where we just like talk about money so that I'm never introducing schools that are not going to be players I also think that sometimes some of the general college advice for your general student is not useful for dancers. So sometimes I get frustrated when families invest a lot of money in a college counselor who doesn't know much about dance. I'd rather they have one session with you or with me or someone who really understands college dance because otherwise they just get this list of the few programs that that person has heard of. And also the advice Sometimes students come to me having been told at school that they need to decide, do they want a big school? Do they want a football school? Do they want a warm school And the thing with dance is like we've already restricted the number of programs. There are, you know, over four thousand institutions in the United States, but there are, you know hundredundreds of programs with dance departments. And some of them, you get a pretty small tight knit experience, even if you're somewhere big. and somewhere small, you often get lots of travel or opportunity. So I likeouraard d anancers to keep an open mind and look at departments before they are, you deciding that they want to Be warm Yes, although I will say that when I went to my college DS tours I definitely did gravitate towards certain campuses more than others and It did play into my decision overall. I mean, in the very end, it was like this is a dance apartment for me. but definitely some campuses I could say, yeah, I can picture myself here and some I was like I don't think this is going to be for me, even if I do like the dance department That's what I mean though. So right now I'm hearing students Weed them out before they've even visited. So I to I'm totally on board. like you can get a feel of a school once you're there, but I want students to be be willing to go to the audition. And then after the audition, if you're like, this is not for me, the kindest thing you can do is withdraw your application and make space for someone else. But yeah, absolutely, you get a huge feel like once you're there finances what are some maybe non traditional ways that you might advise families if they have a gap in their finances beyond the student loan or that kind of thing. what else could they do to supplement? I mean, it depends how big the gap is. L if it's really a gap that, you know, if it's like a thirty thousand dollars gap or something, I think it's time to circle back and look at other institutions. If it's a seven thousand dollars gap Once your student is in college, they're going to be dancing so much in college, it is totally fine for them to be working full time in the summers. They don't have to be doing summer intensas every summer or to be if they qualify for federal work study, work study, jobs build inc incredible skills. If you get your technical theater chops through a work study job on campus, that's a huge help. You knowome programs have built in that you can get your pilates teaching certificate or yoga teaching certificate when you're in school. So doing that early and then teaching some through the year. So definitely like students working is great. and I don't want students to go to schools planning on getting additional scholarships over time, but sometimes there's artistic merit that is available only for the second through fourth years. So sometimes that comes into play. But I think really it's about looking at what the gap is, you can also get your package. There is sometimes a little bit of negotiating room. That's usually in like the five thousand dollars range. But if a school is thirty thousand dollars more than you have budgeted for, it's not the fit for you. And fit is really what we're going to, which, like you said, includes financial fit And I always say to students, just ask about scholarships, even if you didn't get one Just ask if there's anything available because if they really were interested in you and you communicate This is my dream school I can only come here if I am given this amount of scholarship. It might be available. It might not. You never know until you ask. You can ask, absolutely. There are also pieces that if you know about earlier in the process. Like if you're in a WooI state or if you're in an academic common market state, there are ways that tuition is more manageable. You know sometometimes when you're like eighteen and you're going to college, it feels like Yay, I'm leaving. I want to go to L.A or New York or you know, wherever, but you have your whole life ahead of you. So if the best financial option is to stay in state and save, then you get to move to New York after college too. Like there are lots of times that you can go places. So helping students realize this is like the beginning of a long, like I said, a twisty windy path. That's great advice and I agree that as a dancer, having student loans was not cohesive with my pay rate. I definitely agree if you can avoid that, that is great advice Let's pause this episode so I can tell you about one of my all time favorite dancewear brands M Sam Apparel. foundounded by former Joffrey ballet dancer, Jacqueline Mosicki. MCam apparel is designed to make you feel confident, comfortable, and elegant every time you step on the dance floor For nearly a decade, MCM Apparel has been a trusted partner to the dance community providing high quality and truly unique dance weear Whether you're searching for a striking newleotard, the perfect flowy skirts, comfortable leggings for rehearsal, or a custom made costume, MSeam has got you covered with designs for all genders And because you're a listener of the Brainy Ballerina podcast, MC apparel is offering an exclusive discount. Use code Brainy twenty five at checkout for twenty five percent off all items That's B R A I N Y two five. for twenty five percent off everything at MCemaarel. com. Head to the show notes and tap the link to give your wardrobe a refresh today Let's talk more about fit On your website, you really emphasize that going to the best school isn't really the goal in dance, like quote unquote, best school. It's about finding your right fit. So what are some things you think dancers need to consider in order to find their fits It's such a great question. I'm really one of those people that wants to sort of toss out the idea of like a dream school or like a perfect school. College is about growth and personal development and getting you towards making the life that you want to make. And there's not one program that is going to launch you into the world and into life. Fit is really about finding a place where you see yourself growing even if you don't know where that growth is going to lead. So rather than thinking like, I can go to this program so that I can do X, Y, and Z, the sense that I could go to this program and oh my gosh, I wonder who I'll be at the end of it. sort of being excited about the inherent learning, people that you, faculty members that you can learn from and a cohort of dancers who you'll learn with cohort is really your connection and your building block for being a part of the field. I try to talk to three to four dance departments a week just to sort of be knowing what's going on. and I always ask what they're doing to build and support cohorts because I I think that is That is the core of like belongingness and the peace of fit And I also believe in like this is such a saying, but loving the place that loves you back. So when you are wanted by a department and you can see yourself there, that's when the two pieces are fitting together And I think it's a really good question to ask how you're supporting the dancers. Moving toward a career because I had a really wonderful experience at college. I loved my program. was prepared in so many ways from that program for a career I did not receive support specifically for auditions. I was not being mentored like about where I should go. No one was checking in on me. I wasn't being taught how to do the resume, all the videos, all that kind of thing So for me, that was something I was figuring out on my own, which is why I'm so passionate now about helping dancers bridge that gap because evenven coming out of a college dance program, I didn't have that. And so It's not enough in my opinion. If you're a college dance program, people are paying a lot of money for your program to get a job hopefully afterwards. And obviously it's never a guarantee and you can't make that guarantee But you can at least say we will do what we can do in our power to help you get a job. and express what that is. and I think for dancers, it's okay to ask that. you help your students move on to the next stage of their career Absolutely. And that's really useful to hear. One thing I always look at is when programs are bringing in guests, are they only bringing in guest choreographers? orr are they bringing in people like you to talk about career mentoring? orr are they bringing in alumni who are doing a lot of different things? Or are they bringing in mental health folks and dieticians, like Who does the department consider like a guest artist or guest speaker, it just gives a lot of information about how they're thinking about dancer development Yeah, when you're helping a dancer finds their best fit What are some of the first questions that you ask them to sort of reveal where you might want to lead them Sure So my dissertation was about like dance in higher education and embodied knowing what I call dance knowledge. At the root of that is the sense that like dance is deeply embodied, deeply physical and has something really important to bring to the world, like physical connection and empathy. And so the question I start with with dancers is I want them to tell me like what dancing feels like to them, what they feel in their bodies when they're dancing, what they feel before class and after class, ask them to tell me about a really important dance experience to them and really describe it. like viscerally, sensorially, all those pieces because that gives me a window into their physical like way of knowing. And then I also it's always like So just to ask students what they care about. And sometimes they're like I care about all the things you're supposed to care about.ust like the sweetest answer. and it gives us such an opportunity to dig deeper and to ask like What do I care about What do I want to do in this world The type of therapy that I do is called acceptance and commitment therapy. and one of our sayings is choose what matters, do what matters. And I use the same philosophy with dancers, which is you have to have this sense of like what matters to you and then do the things that get you moving in that direction. So that kind of activation of a really deep caring, which is what I think is our superpower as dancers. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the nitty gritties of different programs. Can we talk about the difference between a BFA and a BA dance program and how dancers might think about choosing between those two sort of binary types of programs. totally So the main difference for your listeners is that BFA programs have a higher percentage of credit hours that are required to be in the discipline, whereas BA or BS programs have a lower percentage In actuality, again, you're going to want to compare department to department. Sometimes you could be in a BA program and be dancing as much as someone at another BFAgram. it's just how the program is structured In programs that have both tracks, you'll notice that the dancers get the same technical foundation, the same performance opportunities, but the BA students have a little bit more flexibility in which dance classes they choose versus a BFA student might have a longer list of requirements So in a program with both, it's often more conducive to double major with a BA because you have that flexibility. But in programs, there are a lot of programs now that are BFA programs where they make double majoring totally possible Yeah, so it's really not like it's not as straightforward as we would like it to be. You still have to investigate so deeply into the programs. Like The difference between an MFA and an MA is often that an MFA is a terminal performance degree and an MA is a research degree that is not terminal. So but BFA and BA, it depends on It really depends on sort of how the institution is structuring things Another idea that I really like about your work is that Dancers should think about their career through a really broad lens. and I do see a lot of dancers who get very narrow. If I don't get to this company, that I'm done, I'm a failure, we can go down that steep path very quickly Can you talk about what this looks like in practice when you're working with dancers Totally. So I think this is especially true in ballet. I love the ballet dancers who I work with. They often have narrowed their path so much that you're exactly right that it feels like there's this binary that's like either success or failure. And when we're able to like blow open the notion of like what it means to be a dancer, what it means to be a dance artist then suddenly, it's not a stopping point if you know, when I work with like a trainee who is pivoting instead of being like, okay, I'm done with that, there's a sense of like, Oh I can still build on all the hard work that I've done, all the knowledge that I've accumulated, and I can do something with this. And building broadly means building like an inclusive and generative dance ecosystem. It means thinking of dance not just as performer, but all the pieces that go into making and all the pieces that go into watching dance. That's how we cultivate a community that is, again, expansive, connective There' so many ways that dance is so important in Sure in connection. ourur whole goal is for like old people to be dancing, right? We want people to be moving, to be happy, to be connected. I'm obsessed with this woman on Instagram who does chair tap dancing And it's just it makes me so happy to see people coming together and dancing. or my late father had Parkinson's disease. and even like at the stage of disease where he couldn't walk anymore, he kind of like locomoted with a little shuffle, he would go to his dance for Parkinson's class and he could waltz. Like he could down up up when he couldn't have a normal gait. It's just Dance is so important. Now the stage is important too, but the more people who identify as dancers, the more people who care about going to see things. and that's how That's how more dances get made. That's how like more dances get seen, and that's when dance is a really vital part of our culture and connection Yeah, so I think it's important for dancers too when they're looking at programs, we often think only of a performance track, but you could be in a pedagogy track, you could be an arts admin. You could be kinesiology. There's many different even minors or concentrations within a danced major that you can look into Absolutely. Dancers are also amazing and Allied health dancers make incredible PTs dancers make phenomenal occupational therapists or speech therapists, a bias but dancers make great mental health clinicians. and dancers make great journalists and communicators and marketers and There's so many fields where there are these natural crossovers and in an age where there's so much understandable anxiety about what AI is going to do to job market knowing that dancers who are comfortable with their physical presence and being in physical connection with other humans, that is a core core skill in our world right now Yes I think it's such a great time in your life when you're in college to explore what else you might be interested in. I love when dancers just take Other random classes that you wouldn't have thought would be maybe your passion or your interest. When I was in college, I was convinced that I wanted to be a physical therapist. once I retired from dance and I started doing a double major in exercise science and dance to prepare for that looved a lot of the classes that I took, but then I took organic chemistry and was like, noope, if that is a requirement. It just like I could not, I couldn't get myself to care about it. And realized, okay, this is not going to be the path for me. What would I discovever through that I was required to take quite a few psychology classes for my physical therapy track because so much of it is the psychology of doing the exercises and how do you encourage somebody to do these things that are really, really hard in motivation. I found that I loved that. I was so fascinated by that track. And so it just college is a very unique experience. and I haven't found any other time in my life where I've had the opportunity to just explore so many different fields one time when that is what's expected of you. So it's just such a beautiful time to Dig deep I agree. When dancers are structuring their college experience. I really want them to sort take advantage of whether it's semesters or quarters or four hundred and four, however things are structured. L for the rest of your life, things get kind of like long and drawn out. but this is a time where like you're exactly right. as you're doing those general education requirements, take a lot of different classes and be super curious about them. And some of them, like the ones you hate, all you have to do is finish the course, you know and pass it. And the ones you love, then you can take more courses in that or find out What does it mean to be a dietician or what does it mean to be a historian or those pieces? And along those lines, doing things like short term internships or practicum or sort of structuring in these shorter intensive periods is an opportunity that you have in college that in the slog of adult life you don't always have. Is there any other advice you would give to dancers to design their college experience to prepare them for a really sustainable life in dance So I think that sustainability and this is hard when you're, you know, when you're eighteen, nineteen, twenty, but thinking about sustainability as going beyond those first few years out of college. And so sort of thinking Like thinking long. I actually, I was listening to your self care podcast and you were talking about like how you work out now not to perform but for your like eighty year old self. And that's exactly what I think about. L I'm forty eight. But when I go to the gym, I'm like, I'm doing this for eighty five year old me So thinking long term, it doesn't mean that I know that XY Z will happen, but it means that I'm kind of thinking long term. So it's totally fine and wonderful and fun. and I did it to get out of college and make just exactly what you need to survive, dance all the time and not save for like a year or two. After a while, you're going to need some financial stability as you age. It's just of life, whether you have kids kids are very expensive or not. But thinking about understanding your strengths, knowing that your career can shift and change over time Building up your skill set. I love for dancers to take either a personal finance class or like an int to business type class because dancers are often freelancers. They're often entrepreneurials. so knowing and learning how to manage your money is really important important and letting it be okay for your career to shift and change because it will. even if you finish college, have a company contract You probablyro be doing something different ten years later. You might be teaching at that same company but probably you'll be You know, like Caitlyn, like doing twelve different things and all building on what you've done If I told eighteen year old Caitlyn what I was doing right now, she would be like, what? I could never have imagined any of the things that I'm doing all of the experiences and classes I took and jobs I had and different things I did throughout my career prepared for this moment, even if I wasn't building to it specifically. So it's like Having that dream and having that long term goal, but also just staying curious Because you might be surprised by what stands out to you as you're learning different things about what is actually interesting or what you enjoy doing Absolutely, you discover these different strengths about yourself. I would say like dancers mobilize their knowledge. You find these different things about yourself, and then you find out ways to use them and put them together and make an impact in the world And I think for the danwers to remember too, it's okay to want to make money It's okay. to want to be financially secure. I think sometimes we romanticize that starving artist mindset. And like you said, it is a little bit romantic and fun when you're fresh out of college, but after a few years, it does get really hard. So realizing that you can make money and it's not like you're selling out, but you can find multiple things that you can do, whether it's in the dance field or not where you can piece together this life that involves all these things you like doing It may not look as traditional as a nine to five There are so many different ways that you can support yourself and still be in the dance world Absolutely. and It's also it's okay to stop dancing or stop pursuing a performance career. again. It doesn't mean that it was a waste of time. It's still all that built up knowledge. and My hope is that we can explode the notion of what it means to be a dancer or what a successful career is. I had a conversation like a year ago. I was actually taking class from someone and she was asking me about my career and she said, Ohh, you made it so much farther than I did Just It just gave me such a sad feeling that we've been so conditioned to think that like Dance is like one long road that some people have to like pull over on the side of and other people get farther along because It's really just not. That's not how dance is. Dance is a lot of different people finding their way and their point of connection. I could very easily think of myself as a failure in dance because I didn't, you know, one of my best friends dance for Cunningham. L I didn't have the same career as Mandy, but we are still connected. We still get a dance camp every year in the summer together. We've had very different careers Both had careers in dance That's exactly right because one of my key points that I tell answers all the time is Success is what matters to you. What makes you feel successful? Because exactly like you said, we're conditioned to believe that there are certain jobs or certain companies or ways to do this career that are better than others But what really matters is if you're happy, you feel fulfilled, you're doing what you believe and what lights you up. There'll always be comparison. that's natural human emotion, but I feel successful in my career even though I didn't dance for a major Ballet Company, I felt like what I did was really powerful and I loved being there and that was where I felt build so kind of back to before, like broadening those horizons and Daring to take a greater look at what a dance career could be. Absolutely. It's so true. J also like we want people to dance and then go on and be like crazy wild lawyers and be on the board of our dance company. you know, like we need people to leave dance and do other things. alsoso to take the dancers' knowledge out into the world. It's great Yeah dancers can do anything. We are so determined. We are like you said, we're so scrappy and we are just used to learning. Our life is learning. You're learning so much every single day.'re learning choreography, you're learning new combinations. that is your your brain on dance. And so to go to a whole new field and to learn a whole new thing feels like a very natural progression for us And we, I think you can't understate how learearning to appreciate criticism or adjustments or critiques, corrections cultivates in us this really deep and like internal curiosity, not towards perfection, but it cultivates in us this ability to constantly be finding and discovering new ways of being Mhm. Dancers, listen up OrzA Day deals are here and for one week only, every single pair of Oza Pro two point zero ballet shoes are twenty dollars off No code, no catch, just the shoe that Seth Orza built after a foot injury nearly ended his career in New York City Ballet. designed to make you dance better and feel better from your very first class Or a day deals run june twenty second through the twenty eighth Popular sizes sell out fast, so don't wait Ozabrand. com to lock in your deal. That's Or Z a B R A and d. com or follow the link in our show notes today I want to get a little bit more into the audition process because I know you've had experience on admissions committees. Mhm Can you talk about what faculty members are really looking for when they are looking for dancers at auditions Yes. So when I was on the committee, I was on the committee on graduate student admissions. So I'll talk about that for a second and then undergrad So for graduate school, we really wanted to know is Why an MFA? Wh here? why now? really needs to be a specific reason why you're doing graduate work. It's not a logical next step So who is it you want to work with? What do you want to do in your time here Now for undergrads, one of the things I talk with when I have my chats with dance departments is kind of what are you seeing in auditions? What are you looking for? Also what gaps are you seeing And it's always really telling. So technically different places are kind of looking for different things. It tells us a lot about their values, some Some schools are really looking for placement or a technical foundation. Some schools are looking for raw talent that they can mold some schools are looking for. expressivity are the types of things that are harder to teach and they figure they can catch people up technically Overall, And this is why I like for your top choices to go to the in person audition at the school. The panel is watching your technique, they can see that pretty quickly They're watching how you approach learning. They're watching how you're reacting to material that is brand new to you. They're watching how you're interacting with the people around you. They're watching how you react when you like you know totally screw something up, whether you shut down or whether you give yourself like a smile They're watching for sort of the tone and texture of how you take class because Every institution, the faculty members really know their students. That's one of the things I love about dance and higher education. You can't skip class. You're not anonymous. You're very known by the faculty In some institutions, the faculty are doing their research with professionals, but at a lot of institutions, they're actually doing their creative research with undergraduates So they're looking for students that they want to work with They're also looking for students Kind of like I said with Fit of the like who knows where this person will go, they're looking for students who bring this real sense of openness. Programs don't want to work with someone who has like. very fixed mindset. They're looking for sort of creative flexibility and openness. And you can demonstrate those in your audition. Yes. And one thing that I discovered very quickly when I was going to college auditions, was that most programs asked for improvisation And I was a trained ballet dancer. I did not like impro mean. I was like, this is stupid, you know? justust give me a combination. but And at the time I thought, oh This must be a more contemporary program because I was still in that mindset of like the ballerina, Oh, I just want to do ballet only, which very much shifted in my career. but Oh, this must not be for serious ballerinas. And now looking back, after all of my experience, I can see that was actually a very specific exercise that was given to see who was a smart dancer, who could be creative, who could think on their feets. How do you approach something that you're not comfortable with Do you just go, this is stupid or do you say, okay, It feel comfortable this but I'm going gonna dive in and try it. All of those things they're looking for in that moment, it wasn't really about what your improv looks like. They didn't care about that. They just cared how you approached it And the sort how you approach it, alsoso you can tell a lot from a dancer's spatial awareness, Are they knocking into other people? Are they trying to take the space versus modulating? It can be really useful. Increasingly, programs are also doing, as I said earlier, like multiple genres in the audition kind of Sometimes for equity, knowing that someone might be trained in just one, so they get to have their moment in the genre they've trained in And also to see how students respond to something that is the sort of disrupts their idea of what danceces. you notice it a lot also with more contemporary programs where students think of contemporary dance as kind of like a lyrical competition style and the dance departments think about it differently. So they're looking at again notot expecting you to know how to do certain things, but watching how you approach it Mhm What advice do you give to dancers on how to approach their interviews So be prepared. So really practicing. We do something in the summer that we call faux dition where we do like a mock audition and we also do mock interviews. So we're able to help people get through the nervousness of talking. E for me, like I don't love talking. I would rather be rolling around on the floor. So it's a skill that we have to this and think about having thoughtful answers to questions that we're prepared for and knowing how breathe and think and answer questions that come out of the blue. And again, it's often about how you answer showing that you've put some thought into things Schools, you know always ask why here? And so if you're why here is just My mom went here then it doesn't show that you've really like researched the departments. so being ready to say you all offer this and I think I would really grow in that Mhm specifics, deffinitely. What are some of the questions you think that dancers and families need to be asking college dance programs on the flip side if they're in an interview or even before then What should they be asking? Okay, so here's what I think. You can ask whatever you want as long as it's not like very obviously on the website. So make sure you've done your research, but then ask what you're interested in But What matters more is how the pro like like we said with auditions, it's the how. So how programs respond to your question is going to matter more than the content of the answer. So I'll give you an example. So if you ask ten students double major Some schools will say Oh man It's really hard. A lot of these students do it, but I don't it's a lot. We just tell you guys, it's a lot of work anotherother school might say Oh my goodness, it's so much work and we have so many students doing it. We have students double majoring in communications. We have students double majoring in exercise science. We know double majoring in engineering just doesn't work You need to come in with some AP classes or some dual enrollment. You probably need to plan for a summer. We advise from the beginning, it's super hard and we're always just floored by how amazing our students are Right? So both answers are saying it's super hard. But one program is saying like, well what a pain. And the other program is inspired by their students So listening to how same with. if you ask, what are your alumni doing and a school says, Oh, they're doing all sorts of things, someome are performing someome are doing other things versus if they're like. there's a really huge range. we have people dancing with this company and this company, we have a student who's the wororking at the NEA, we have students who have gone to physical therapy program. Diffnce again, again, the answer is doing a lot of things. The difference is you can tell that one program is staying connected with their students and knows exactly what they're up to and the other is And there's quite a big range in how much programs stay in touch with their alums. And also if they answer, I've had so many dancers reaching out to programs with questions and never getting a response. And that's immediately a red flag for them and their families because they're like I'm sending my eighteen year old to the school And I'm not getting any communication from them. What's it going to be like Yeah. so the It is useful to know the level of organization of the department is useful to know. The communication should always come from the student. I still hear faculty members so frustrated hearing from parents so much So the communication should come from the student and in bigger programs, there's usually like a recruitment director. Sometimes that's a staff member who's incredibly responsive Sometimes it's a faculty member who's super responsive, sometometimes it's a faculty member who's really overwhelmed and not great at email. So it doesn't always equate to how the actual program is run, but it is a useful piece of information. And if you're down to the point where you're comparing two programs one where you get clear responses and one where you either don't get responses or get half responses, again, that's useful information Yeah, and definitely a good point to remember for dancers you need to be. communicating with the programs. You are about to you are adults at this point, you're about to enter a college program Your parents might help you craft an email if you're uncomfortable with that and you're still working on those skills, but you need to be the one who' doing that and you need be checking your em abouts on the flip side. because I thought danwers get acceptances or get emails or programs and not answer them in a timely manner and then Yeah. So I always just one like little piece of advice that's really useful is to create an email address that's specific for your whole college process. And then yes, keypoint be checking it What are some of the realities about the dance profession that you think young dancers and families need to understand earlier? Be I do feel like there's often some concern from parents about their dancers taking this path. You know, they may not be dancers or artists themselves. and so the idea of taking A path that's not maybe as secure feels scary. What do you think they need to know about this profession? You know, I think we're at a time where So much of the job market and economy feels really scary F or eight years ago, getting a computer science degree was a great idea. And now it's not as great or as secure So I think for parents knowing that supporting their dancers and cultivating their flexibility and their versatility In dance, but also broadly is an important skill alsoso knowing that For a dancer Being a part of a dance community is really a protective factor. It gives them a connection to the college experience whether or not they pursue a performing career, it will help ensure connection and enjoyment in college. And you'd rather have your child like enjoying their school's nut crracker than enjoying smoking pot in a dorm room or whatever, you know, like whatever the range is. And and knowing that like if approached with a broad mindset that Being a dancer is an incredible way to be in the world. And like we both said, like it might be your forever career or it might be something that you do and then you do other things. But you know, it's the same thing like my goddaughter majored in philosophy and she's going to go on to law school. She's not going to become a philosopher But that that Foundational logical thinking is what's preparing her. for law school. So our dance majors are are cultivating a really interesting type of knowledge. And I have patients who come to me and when I ask kind of what they're looking for in a therapist, they're like, I saw you were a dancer And there's this especially for folks who are trauma survivors or processing things, there's this sense of like safety and that physical knowledge. L, you know, people who've notot really dance, but they know that a dancer is someone who knows about the body and is comfortable talking about the body. It's an asset Yeah, and as a dancer, I'm definitely more likely to choose or gravitate toward a therapist who was a dancer because It's such a specific experience and to have somebody who gets it, to talk about with can be really powerful. And also dance is something that will not be replaced by AI, right? AI is not taking over performing jobs. so I' ' actually curious at this point in our world this will start to shift toward artists and this kind of medium being the more secure job M hm. that point of connection. Yeah. I mean, my rollfer that I see for my neck problems was a dancer. like there there are a lot of dancers like who go on to do other things that are like human to human. profess and we are like we are used to making quick friendships and making quick connections and being vulnerable with each other, which not everyone learns how to do Last question for you, Ashley, what advice would you give to a high school dancer who is just starting to think about taking the college path So that's a great question because I just put on my website a guide for high school. So I'll send you the links that you can link it in the show notes. most like for the overview, though, I think that ninth graders should be thinking about high school. They do not need to be thinking about college yet. Kids have so much pressure on them There are a few things they can do to be organized, like start an artistic portfolio and chart their high school time. Around tenth grade is a great time to s start lightly thinking about it. We do technique evaluations with tenth graders, so helping think about where are the gaps in your training that you might want to start filling in or what are the strengths we see in you Figuring out your academic strengths and your academic connections is really important for tenth graders The summer between tenth and eleventh grade is a wonderful time to go away. If you have the resources to go to summer training, especially at a college to get a sense of what that's like. Junior year is like I just want dancers like I know they want to dance all the time, but you got to lock in on your academics. Junior year matters the most. I want dancers to do test prep Test scores don't matter that much for dance degrees, but sometimes they really help with merit awards. More and more schools are going to be requiring them. And so it's just worth doing your best and seeing what happens and really starting to figure out who you are as an artist, what type of programs interest you In spring of the junior year, we even often offer a specific package for juniors for a list builder. It's ideal if by the end of junior year you have big list that will probably shorten down a little bit. Summer between junior and senior year is a great time to do like one intensive and then work as much as you can and save. and then senior year is full of auditions and learning about yourself and enjoying senior year and being patient and then doing some discernment and I even sometimes meet with people just at the decision making phase where they've done the whole process on their own and just need help deciding between a couple programs and pulling in all my pieces of knowledge to help people just see clearly what their options are and having a connection and gratitude with your whether it's your studio or your high school or your creative community at home, getting to enjoy Yeah, and I think most dancers are used to the audition period starting January, right for summer intensive companies, but colleges, auditions start in like October, typically. Yep, And you always want to apply early action when you can for the schools And the earlier, it's tricky for students with Nutcracker seasons, but the earlier you can audition, the better. Yeah, that's why I do think like if you can start getting your stuff together the summer before amazing because like you said too, there's no one process Many schools too I've seen this more and more or having you film really specific combinations. So instead of saying send us a video a please to do stgoets, whatever, where you can just do one set. It's like Here are four combodations we wantna see to learn those for every school. It's more filming than you're probably used to I know. And some of those pres screens are just not my favorite because you can see technique with the dancer doing like what they're familiar with. Yeah, the process of learning from video is especially time consuming Yes, yes. so definitely start thinking about this a little bit earlier dancers, especially if you have a busy nutcracker season and you know you're going to be swamped, it will take more time than you think that it will Give yourself breathing room. You will feel way less stressed about the whole process Ashley, this was so helpful, so informative. I know that there are many families and dancers who are going to be very grateful for this conversation. If anyone listening wants to learn more about you or your work Where can we find you you can go to dance and collollege counseling andispelled out. com. And I also am about to like relaunch rebrand my Instagram inspired by the Brainy ballerina. So I'm hoping to have more of a presence on Instagram and do some QNAs and more free educational resources on that platform too Amazing. We'll put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Ashley. I really appreciate all of your wisdom. Thank you so much. It's been a delight Thank you for tuning in to the Brainy Vallerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry Plus, your range help others discover the show too I'll be back with a new episode next week In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at the Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance