Historical Figures and Soccer Predictions

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Hey, did I hear there's a pill version of Ozempic? Yep, you sure did. Ask your doctor about which FDA approved uses of the Ozempic pen or pill may be right for you. Call one eight three ozempic or visit ozempic dot com to view the medication guide and learn more about ozempic Samaglatide tablets nine milligrams and ozempic Samaglatide injection Two milligrams. There's a new version of Oh Sam. B Hey everybody. We have got my guy Quint Smith coming up next and The pod ended and I was thinking, I was pretty melancholy. I was melancholy. I was also pretty negative about America. And I'm about to drop this on you guys on your holiday weekend And u Iink did a good job at moments of lifting my spirits, but I want carry out my obligation to you and yours and offer a little bit of uplift. about this great country of ours foollowing that big soccer win last night over Bosnia and Herzegovinia. I want to read to items for you The second, if you're a longime Bullwark podcast listener, you've probably heard before, but it's always nice to refresh it. It's one of my favorites. It's a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the mayayor of Washington, D.C saying that he's too sick to go to the fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration So the eighteen twenty six version of the event that we'll be holding on the mall this weekend history or trivia nerds will know that Jefferson ended up dying on the fiftieth anniversary of the Delaration And so this letter from him to Roger Whitman, is one of his last Writings and it's extremely poignant and I used to torture my staff with back when I worked on Republican campaigns on the fourth of July morning try to get them in the right mindset for celebrating our nation. So I'm going read that one to you. First Bill in the newsletter yesterday shared some comments that Gerald Ford made on the two hundredth anniversary of the Declaration. And unlike our meegalomaniac president Gerald Ford used the occasion, marked the occasion to go to a naturalization ceremony. and talkuck Welcome the newest Americans on the two hundredth anniversary and talk about the importance of immigration. I'm going to read both of these back to back because I think they say something important about our country. that I want to leave you with before we get to clim H's Gerald Forda two hundred. I'm very proud to welcome all of you as fellow citizens of the United States of America invite you to join fully in the American Aventure and to share our common goal and our common glory You've given us a birthday present beyond price yourselves. The patriots of seventeen seventy six wanted to build in this beautiful land a home for equal freedom and opportunity, a haven of safety and happiness, not for themselves alone but for all who would come to us through centuries How well they built is told by the millions upon millions who came and are still coming Immigrants came from almost everywhere singly and in waves such transfusions of traditions and cultures as well as of blood have made America unique among nations and Americans a new kind of people We offered citizenship to all and we've been richly rewarded That was Gerald Ford on two hundred H's Tom Jefferson again on the fiftieth exxplaining why he won't be able to be there to celebrate and lamenting that I should, indeed, with peculiar delight have met and exchanged their. Cratulations personally with the small band the remnant of that host of worthies who joined with us that day and the bold and doubtful election we were to make for our country between submission or the sword. and to have enjoyed with them the consolatory fact that our fellow citizens, after half a century of experience and prosperity, continue to approve the choices we made mayay be to the world what I believe it will be To some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all, the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves and to assume the blessings and security of self government, that form which we have substituted, restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of opinion All eyes are opened or opening to the rights of man I find these things paired together on the fiftieth and the two hundredth to be particularly beautiful about our experiment because It's talking about two related things that are happening. Ford is talking about those who are coming to the country and still want to come because we're offering this freedom to them, we're offering them opportunity We are offering them escape from tyranny And Jefferson So Witman is talking about how he hopes This is our export. All of the world will follow in America's example some sooner and others later have the opportunity to burst the chains of oppression Obviously, context there for Jefferson is tough because not everybody in America had bursted the chains at the time of the fiftieth But It was about this aspirational hope everyone will be able to Be free Everyone will be able to secure for themselves the rights of self government and all the rights that are enshrined in the Bill of Rights and all the rights that are enshrined in our founding documents. this American moment, this American founding is was not the end of something. It was not the end of a war. It was not just the beginning of the country. It was the beginning of the sea change where everyone, the world over will start to have their eyes opened to the opportunities of freedom in that way America is special. since we are We are the ones to Hopefully setent the world in that path And I like this because right going back to the Jefferson letter, this notion that to some parts sooner or to others later, but finally to all That is the promise of America, the finally to all But eventually someome point through enough work and through enough dedication and through enough commitments that everybody Well be able to Not. has equal outcomes but we willll be able to have equal rights equal freedoms, equal opportunities to live as they choose to live and to be themselves and to worship as they wish and to speak as they wish and to not have the thumb of some autocrat or some monarch or some king upon them And so with Ford and Jefferson together, it is is this welcome sign saying we want to invite everyone into this bounty And Jefferson is offering this statement of purpose We want to export it all to you as well and That is what America's about We're failing We're failing when Jefferson wrote that letter We're probably feeling worse now than we were when Ford was at that naturalization ceremony. So we've probably backtracked in the last fifty years. fundamentally ice America. It this idea, this promise. JD Vance and these fuckers want to try to make it about something else. They want to try to turn us into hungry or IDR Brazil or any other country around the world where being a member of that country is because of who your ancestors are, what your religion is, or because you grew up on this certain plot of land. that's not what our country is. It isn't. L ourur country is about The promise and the creed that is put out in those documents and that is something that everyone should have the opportunity to experience that everyone should have the opportunity to be a part of whether it be because they've come to our land in the hopes for that opportunity whether will it be because we have tried failed a lot, but tried to project out to the world what the benefits are. of this style of government, what the benefits are of self government That is something that's still worth projecting. it's still worth fighting for, it's still worth arguing for, and it's a beautiful thing about our country So you know, the celebration down there on the mall Fuck it. I don't think anybody's gonna be sitting there on some AI podcast a hundred years from now, waxing nostalgic about whatever nonsense Donald Trump has to say tomorrow night What is underneath that It's still good if we do our part to nourish it and fight for it. And that's what we'll do when we'll get back here on Monday next week. In the meantime, I don't know. I'm going to probably have some beers and sausages and hang out with my family and friends here in New Orleans. So we'll see you all back here on the podcast on Monday up next Clint Smith He's fucking awesome. so please stick around for that Happy fourth of July Hello and welcome to the Board podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Happy thirird of July. I guess we're celebrating fourth of July on the third of July today. I am excited for today's guest especially chosen For this holiday, is a staff wrider at the Atlantic His books include the poetry collection abbove Ground and the best selling How the Word is passed. a reckoning with the history of slavery across America That's my guy Clint Smith. Welcome back the show, man. goodood to see you. It's good to be here Th think I've had your brother since then. And you have had my brother. Yeah, and he dropped me ston Ao and you weren't get to at the end. so I just H you had any other sibling pairs or are we the first one? I believe the Smith siblings are the only ones. cororrect me from producer. would I'm trying to think if there's any other who that would be So kudos to you All right, we're out here. It's a talented family. got I got to get your sister. What I want to start with is you had a recent piece in the Atlantic about being a black soldier under Pete Hgseth and his new Department of warar You interviewed a bunch of people. Some of the basic facts here is Pentagon, he has blocked or delayed the promotion of twelve plus black and female senior officers pushed out several of them remove the portrait from the art gallery of Chap. James, the first Black American to be promoted to a four star Genal. You know, it's one of those things with the beginning start to raise your eyebrows a little bit at some of the choices, but the trend line is not subtle. It's not subtle. No. And you know, for this story, I interviewed over two dozen currently enlisted and retired officers civilian and members of the military And it was interesting because what a lot of them are experiencing is this sort of cognitive dissonance. where on the one hand They are acutely aware of their own history And they are aware of the fact that you know, oftentimes they're like second, third, fourth, fifth generation in their family to serve in the military. They've got folks going all the way back to the Civil War, like formerly enslaved people who fought in the Civil War then people who fought in segregated units in World War one and World War two, people who were you, one day fighting for civil rights in the US the next day fighting in Vietnam. And so There's this long tradition of a recognition that Black Americans have often fought for a country that hasn't always fought for them and in many ways, look for a country that's often purposefully antagonized them. And so that sense of history gives them this sense that like All right, it's bad now, but Our ancestor' been through worse. My grandfather's been through worse. My dad has been through worse And still It's incredibly difficult to exist in the current paradigm where you are being inundated with messages explicit and implicit rhetoric policy that is telling you that you don't deserve the position that you're in and that you are not worthy of ascending to certain high ranking offices within the military. That the only reason you're in the military or the only reason you're in these high ranking positions or have been considered for them, the suggestion from Secretary Hagseth and his aIidS is that it's because of affirmative action. It's because of DEI, it's because of Joe Biden's quote unquote woke military. And that is a really difficult environment for people to be in. And so there's this back and forth of should we stay? should we go and people making different sorts of calculus about what the right thing to do Well let's tease that out. talk to I guess this was Gerald Curry, somebody did decide to retire and kind of you talk to him about that very question, how are they thinking about this? I mean, this is one of those questions that is I've had some FBI folks on here and people at DOJ. This is a tough question across the government, right? It's like, do I work for a government that I believe to be corrupt? Is it better to have people of responsibility in these positions or not. like that's some of the ways on a lot of people. like this adds kind of an additional layered to it when, you know, the seecretary is just being blatantly racializing, you know, these decisions. Yeah, you know I think that one of the factors for many people. And I think this is probably the case within the federal government as well. But in the military A twenty years, you get a pension that you receive for the rest of your life. That's important for all members of the military, to be clear, and that's a huge incentive for so many of them to stay on for extended periods of time. This is why so many people in the military have such long tenures because once you get past twenty years, even if you get to twenty five, thirty, thirty five, you get paid more and more the longer you stay in, but It's hard to overstate the role that the military has played in V. providing an opportunity for black upward social and economic mobility in ways that are kind of singular in the sort of intergenerational configuring of U the American professional infrastructure, right? Like it's a huge thing that has happened is that there are so many generations of black folks in the military because it has been such a reliable mechanism by which to achieve, you know and send you know to differentconom socioeconomic statuses It's like actually the irony about this because it's like actually a meritocracy. Right, No, sure. And the other part of this is, you know, one of the things that people I spoke to brought up is this idea that because the military is such a U has been such a singular place in that way A lot of the folks have come from really impoverished working class backgrounds, and the military has made it so that they are the economics source of stability for their entire family, right? Not just like their kids, their partner, but like their extended family. And so you know, you have these folks who have now ascended into a different socioeconomic realm because of the stability that the military is afforded who are trying to make a calculus about whether to stay or to go with a recognition that the calculus isn't just about you know, what red line is Hxeth going to cross or how much is racism am I willing to experience? but also like This job is what allows me to support many, many people beyond myself. And so I think that's another layer that is added on to the sort of complexity. And Gerald Curry, who you mentioned, part of the reason he decided to join was because he joined the Air Force was because he saw his cousins h, when he was a kid in Fort Knox and just saw his house he lived in and saw his pristine uniform And it represented a sort of stability that Lieutenant Curry yearned for for himself and that is one of the things that led him into the military in the first place Yeah, obviously some of the folks you talked to, you know couldn't go on the record because of either they're in the military or just it's just not it's outside the tradition of the military to kind of pop off about something like this That said, I just I'm kind of curious when it was, you know, just you guys on background, like how much bitterness there was about it, like what the vibe was about it. I mean, to me, I just can't imagine these guys like working their whole career serving Iraq, Afghanistan, going into war zones and having like a weekend talk show C host clown you know, making these types of decisions. Yeah, I mean There is a lot of animists toward Secretary Higet understandably, you know, I mean, I think the B brazenness with which he disregards the service of these, you know, thousands and thousands of members of the military across these branches U is not something they felt like they would ever have to experience and certainly not experience from the person who is in charge of the military. right? It's one thing to experience this on an interpersonal level from a commander you know, or a racist, you lieutenant or whatever the case may be on a sort of, you know, one off event, but for the for the head of the Pentagon to be sending down these messages, to be, you know, flying in generals and admirals from all across the world in order to tell them that they can put hands on u their subordinates, right? And for them to then hear that and think about what implication that's going to have for the units that they're a part of or the thing that has prevented you know, otherwise wildly racist incidents from transpiring is that there's a level of accountability from the top But now there's no accountability from the top. In fact, there is a sort of blank check so to speak, that's been written where it's like, no, do whatever you want to do and you won't be fired. You won't experience consequences. So there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of despair. You know, one of the guys I talked to said he said was everything I fought for in vain. You know, like this is not. This is not what I signed up for att the same time One of the things that was recurring in these conversations was the idea that A lot of these folks were like I don't fight for Heet Like I didn't sign up to fight for Hegseth, I didn't sign up to fight for Trump. I didn't sign up to fight for America as it is, what I signed up to fought for was the Constitution Like I signed up to defend the Constitution and what the Constitution is, particularly in the Back historical tradition, is as Dr. King talks about it, it's a promissory note promissory document. It's a document that represents the aspirations of what America can be. And so I think Part of the Black military tradition is this recognition that you are often fighting for the aspirational version of what America can be and not necessarily what it is at the moment. Yeah Itusts got to be a little bit more of a bitter pill to swallow when, you know that's he's such a joker too. you know It's like be one thing if it was a racist who was a good good military general that rose through the ranks and, you know demonstrated themselves Like that's not what is happening here, you know? Well, that's the other thing, you know, like I can't get inete excess head, but like One thing that came up over and over again was this sense from people of I'm wondering like why there was such a particular venom directed toward Black service members and and women, to be clear and wondering if it was if at some point in his career Secretary Hagseth felt as if he was passed over for a promotion at the expense, you know, with at the expense of somebody else or because somebody else, you know, who he deemed to be less qualified who may have been bllack, who may have been a woman, who would have been anybody other than a white man. And perhaps was that a catalyst for the level of intensity that he is bringing to this this effort to sort of expunge Black officers from the service this is why I like you. You know you this is the generosity of spirit that you showed and how the world has passed too. As you go to meet these racists. L something must have happened to this guy. I don't know Pete Hckon a fucking ass clown, but sure. Okay. Yeah, he also you also might have have been passed over. That's true This episode is brought to you by the New York Times. You know when I called them the failing New York Times, It was We love the New York Times. Here's why. Clinton and I were having this conversation about how the administration is trying to rewrite history and Whitewash America's two hundred fiftieth and one of the thingsings we spent a few minutes talking about Uh, was something that I took reporter, my guy Michael Bnder. is doing workout in the field A bch time to uncover Ih You have to do real work, real reporting, put effort into it, put time into it. You got to verify, You got have the resources to do it that It's something that is valuable and that is needed. for a liberal Democratic Republic And it's something that we're doing a little bit of here at the Bulwark, but It's different in nature than podcasting and being independent media. For me to have things to flap my jaw about It's important that there are other people out there that are doing the work verifying getting the facts right It's not just our friends of the times. Folks at bunch places for publica, your local paper Anywhere reporters are working to beat A guy Jonathan Coen right here. He's working a beat They're the ones that gather the facts, find a story. And and I do worry that in this world where all you people are seent to me Instagram reels from random people out in America shouting their opinions about things was no editing, no fact traccking. I worried something that we're missing and that we're losing a little bit of So I appreciate The Times is out there doing it when Clinton and I talked about that MAGA group that went after Smith College for , I actually said a trans person at there grraduation, we were relying on reporting of the Times And I was replying on the reporting in the Times this week we had Maggie on talking about What is happening behind the scenes in Trump White House? We're going to continue to do so Journalists like Michael Bnder, like Maggie speent weeks, months and even years putut those stories together to keep us informed. I appreciate it. Whver you seek it out nationally locally support fact based reporting Will you tell us about because I had not heard of General Champion James for just my ignorance, but it was interesting the degree to which the taking down his picture affected. some of the folks you talked to. Yeah, it was huge. And you know to be honest, I wasn't familiar with Chapy James before working on this project either So General James was the first four star general in the military served in the Air Force And you know, he helped train soldiers Tuskekee airmen during World War two He served in Korea and in Vietnam as a fighter pilot. It was an incredibly decorated fighter pilot. There's also this moment where he's in Libya and has this showdown with Momar Gaddafi, when Gaddafi is like this young rebel and there's the coup happening and Gaddafi drives the military vehicle up to the gates of the U. S. base and in this very dramatic showdown, Chapie James like closes the gate before Qaddafi can get in, Gaddafi gets out of his vehicle, he puts his hand toward his holster where his gun is Chappy James almost Western style like grabs his gun first, pulls it out on Gaddafi and tells him betteret not move his hand and touch the gun. in his holster and Gadafi very slowly sort of withdraws his hand and walks back to the vehicle and drives off And it became part of sort of military mythology. They called him the Black John Wayne. And so this is somebody who has like a very renowned military pedigree, and he had his portrait hanging in the Air Force gallery in the Pentagon And in the early days of the Trump two point zero it was taken down. And I was really hurtful to a lot of the folks who I spoke with because General James portrait. in many ways sort of symbolized the possibility of upward mobility for black officers within the military, right? Like his portrait being there was a sort of daily reminder every time they walked past it, like this could be possible for me too And when it was taken down it very much felt like the very opportunity to ascend to the sort of position that Chapppy James had ascended to was also taken away, right? Like there's move and the other part of it is that's interesting is like Chapby James was by no means like this radical liberal Pgressive anything. L he was a pretty conservative dude. like he was a Reagan Republican. Ronald Reagan loved him. He called him like a model soldier. He said that he was a hell of a pilot. He just a few years ago, they named a bridge after him. DeSanta signed a bill to name a bridge after him in Florida. And so this is somebody who had he lived, he had a heart attack notot long after he retired from the military. But had he lived, he was considered as someone who could potentially be a running mate to a Republican presidential candidate. And so that addded dimension of it almost ironically made people even despair M so, because it was like This guy's not good enough then. Like this guy he this is a Republican. L he's he is the almost prototype. of wh you would think the military, certainly a Republican administration in their military service members would want. And certainly, you know, he was the case for previous administrations. And so the fact that of Republican genereneral was taken down from the walls peopleeople were like, well, if this guy iss not good enough for them. There's no chance for me one thing if you know they're taking down Jesse Jackson or whatever. It's like I get that, you know. Right It's related to another article that you werere working on recently, which was an interview with Lonnie Bunch who heads up the Smithonian I have Maggie Haverman on on Wednesday's show. talked about her book regime change. it was a section of it that struck me. and obviously there's like so much happening in the first year this horrible like kind of locking in on what happened at the portrait gallery. like at some level feels a little You know, like doesn't have the gravity and weight of the other crimes against humanity happening from the Trump administration. But I was pretty struck just by kind of the whole you know, conversation about how Trump's underlings and people around him really kind of obsessed with these exhibits and like wanting to get them fixed. And like and he tells the story. she recounts the story with a bunch tells about where Trump visited the African American History museum and like he seemed to not care at all. and he tried to talk to people about how they love him in the Netherlands when they were like, I think it was looking at a Netherlands slave ship or something. So you know, he bunches is of hanging on to this job. They end up getting firing the woman at the portrait gallery, but but you know, he is sticking around at least for now. You interviewed him recently Like just tell us about him and kind of why is he sticking around? Do he got a pension too? don I was like if I was that guy, I'd be like, get me the fuck out of this job. Yeah I think they you know, Part of the reason he's ticking around one, he's the founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, right And so You know, he built this museum when there was no collection There was no staff, there was no art, there was no building, there was no site. We didn't know where it was going to be. It was just an idea. And he was selected to bring this idea to fruition. And he spent you know, more than a decade of his life engaged in this project and now it is one of the most popular museums in the country, you know, and is one of the focal points of the national Mall. And so, you know, then he obviously ascended to the position of a secretary But I think his history with the Smithsonian as the founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, before that as a curator, the National American History Museum He has a lot invested in this institution. I mean, this institution has been his life you know, since he was a young young historian coming through through the ranks And I think that he is also He's a kind of singular figure I mean, most people would tell you he is the most renowned and celebrated public historian In the country, one woman I talked to said that he was the beyonce of museums. They're like you walk through hotels with him during conferences and people are like following him, trying to take selfies and, you know tell getting his autograph.s it's a pretty astonishing thing. I love that But he he is so He represents I think because of his pedigree, because he has been a curator. because he is the first historian and first black person to serve in as secretary of the Smithsonian. he's uniquely suited to defend it And I think that he feels a deep amount of personal a deep personal sense of responsibility to stand up and make sure he's defending it. And he's trying to navigate You know as diplomatically as one can ensuring that he is protecting this Sithsonian and standing up to this administration while also not actively antagonizing the administration And I think it's interesting because Trump has attacked the Smithsonian a lot, right? Like he's come very directly at Smithsonian. So they've talked too much about slavery. They talk too much about the sad things in America. They're too woke, et cetera, et cetera. But he's never attacked Lonnie by name as far as I know, like there's been no true social posts about Lonni. And so in some ways, I think I think the Pident As much as he despises what the Smithsonia is doing or is being told to despise it by people around him I think that he He kind of likes Lonnie. L Lonnie's a liable guy Um and I think when lear about this lunch where Trump's talking about how it Like Lon he's worried that Trum's going gonna to start ra, you know, ranting and raving about the Back transr statue of Liberty or whatever. and instead he just like wants to show off the the chandeliers and talk about how he wants to get rid of Dullas Airport and make a Trump airport. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing about Trump, you know if there's the There's sometimes a disconnect between the bluster and the public performance of a certain you know, Bellicose phrase in personality whichich isn't to say that that's not a part of it, but like but it looks different when you are oftentimes one on one with him. And I think a lot of people who are reporters, certainly a lot of my colleagues at the Atlantic experience this directly, where the way that Trump talks about them online versus how he talks to them when they're in person is pretty different. And I think for somebody like Lonnie, you know he went into that lunch thinking that like that it was going to be over for him, right? Like was he going to make it out and still be the seecretary of the Sithsonian Were they going to come in and magify the entire institution And instead, you know, Trump wants to talk to him about chandeliers and curtains and like which color, you know, what should he use gold or silver to ornament his new ballroom So it's the cognitive dissonance that he's experienced been has been something. Trump just really if only Fred had hugged him more, you know, he could have been a gay, theater queen, interior designer, I think it could have been happy, you know? Look at you extending the same generosity and thoughtful could have been happy. You're just trying to figure out everybody vill in story. That's right. That's Villanor. That's fair. No, he's there's probably no path to a healthy Trump Allright everybody we're takaking back the fourth at the bulwark Miature American flags for some, abortions for others Bar plus subscriptions. for yet a third group borrow from the Simpsons We are running our fourth of July sale Right now It's happening this weekend. you get a full year membership for everything we offer on our website for just eighty six bucks, fourteen percent off because of this holiday, this flag, this country belongs to all of us Not one party, not one person I got my fourourth of July playlist. I'm giving that to you for free. All right? We're putting that in the show notes right here zero dollars for the fourourth of July playlist eightighty six dollars of value from that playlist and all the other reporting commentary we're doing here at the Bulwark sale runs all the way through this weekend. comeome join us the Bork d. com slash july four That's the Bk dot com slash july four. link in the shout notes to the offer. in the playlist So like this dichotomy, right between like Trump's online bluster and then in person that gets managed by Bonnie, like it's harder to do outside of that, like within the broader MAGA apparatus And like when it comes to this DEI stuff You know, There is now like a whole cottage industry that has been built up like around Trump. to go after an attack. these programs. There's a story earlier this week by my guy Michael Bendnder in the times. I just want to read a little bit of it to you because just shows kind of the extent of this This's how the story starts The complaint that prompted a federal civil rights investigation into gender policies at Smith College. Smith College. a lot of gender discrimination happening there. It was not filed by a student, a graduate, or anyone affiliated with the college. It originated from deffending Education, a conservative parents rights group. The organization targeted Smith after learning one of the school's graduation speakers was doctor Rachel Levine, a transgender physician and retired four star admiral And I guess they saw the speech online and they were like, we should go after Smith College now. This is just kind of one anecdote. and you know, there are one hundred plus examples of this. You know, this is like a full out campaign an attack that's happening. just from this one group defending education, but you know, there are other examples of that all around the country. that stuff you kind of monitor and cover and just Like what's your sense of like kind of the the scale of this and how much of a clawback there's going to be when when we you know turn the clock into twenty twenty nine. You know, what's interesting is is I was doing this reporting for the military story It's not only the case that Hexeth and Trump are B I should say, you know, HgSF as authorized by Trump is preventing these folks who have been signed off by the military, by these thorough extensive military boards to become, you know a general, to become an admiral, to get a different star. It's not only that Hexeth is chopping people off the list because they're black or because they're a woman or because they're queer It's also that his aides go and do a lot of research on these people who are put up for promotion. And they do these sort of thorough online searches using AI to Try and find instances in which anybody who's been put up for promotion has at any point said anything positive about diversity, equity and inclusion, about LGBTQ rights, about feminism, about black history and then those things are presented to Hexeth and they're used as justification to prevent you from you know, getting the promotion that you deserve. And the thing that people need to understand is that like The military isn't making these decisions on a whim, right? Like there's a very thorough vetting process that happens by which meembers of the military, high ranking officers themselves and part of these military boards are looking at every part of your record every part of your character, every part of your education, every part of your service and determining whether or not you deserve to be promoted and whether or not you are in a role that is commensurate with your skills set And so when they promote people It's typical know with previous administrations that the Secretary of defefense is going to trust that process, which has been in place for many years and largely just sign off on it. And so it's pretty unprecedented to this degree that the Secretary of Defense would would start like saying no to so many people and disproportionately having those people be black people and women or people who have said anything in support of black people and women at any point. And then inevitably what happens is you begin to fill the high ranking spaces of the military with people who look the same and think the same. And in the context of the military, I think that's not only a moral issue. it's also a question of like Oh, you were actually making the military like a less effective force. you are preventing the military from being the healthy ecosystem diverse viewpoints and perspectives that is needed in order for the military to do the sort of work that it does across the world in all sorts of different national, ethnic, and geopolitical contexts. And if you have people in the room who only have one point of view or one setort of experiences, then you are decimating for the health of this institution to be able to effectively do its work Yeah, I to your point on that at the end. L the military seems like the worst possible organization to try to go after DI in? because like as you're saying, like there is Like you do specifically want. people who are representing different cultures and who understand different cultures because of the nature of the work the military does. I just kind of steel mating the argument though I'm just, you know, is there not Emmy any kind of movement, any type of ideology or policy can go overboard at times. Is there not anything to the fact that in some of these organizations they created DEI organization that maybe did some good things about identifying the people to hire, but then also to kind of continue existence there it ends up doing a lot of make work kind of nonsense and silliness makes people roll their eyes or maybe it isn't efffficient or maybe that money could be used better actually going to hire a new black soldier or professor or something rather than having another department head at college. And I think this is part of Pete Hankson's critique of the Dpartment of War two at the amount of money going to kind of overhead versus people in the field, likeike what do you say to kind of the like non racist like just more to legitate critique on the grounds of like efficiency and fairness I think Good faith argument for thoroughly vetting programs to ensure that they are doing the work that they should do and that they set out to do is a good thing, right? Like And I think that you know, nobody you know, certainly in the context of the military or the federal government, you know, People don't want their taxes going to initiatives that are ineffective or that feel wastew, the issue is that there was no meaningful attempt to to analyze or to go in and figure out what's working and what's not, or to have a set of conversations to do, again, a sort of like Thoro unpacking of like what are these DEI programs set out to do? But also the thing is like DEI has just become an umbrella term, right?ike the issue is that it's been a bad faith effort And what it is is, as my colleague Adam Serer has written extensively about recently is that like we have a federal government, we have an administration, and an executive branch that is fundamentally interested in like reconstituting many sectors of society. That would have felt hyperbolic to me a few years ago. I' have been like, look, man, like I don't know, like they're doing some bad stuff, but like newew Jim Crow in the, you know, But I think if you look at the policy if you look at the rhetoric, if you look at what they are actually doing They are trying to create A federal infrastructure. a military infrastructure a C suite infrastructure That does not believe that black people capable have the intellectual capacity to serve in positions of power and authority, and they want to rememove and or prevent black people from having access. to these opportunities. And that is like a central part O. there program that is the central part of what they're trying to do. And so Yes, there are bad EI programs in the same way that there's bad Bike you know, HR programs there in the same way that there's bad. Sure we have some pointless military units, actually. We some soldiers doing things that you know and so So I just think that the ultimately like what this is And this is how the military story is tied together with the Smithsonian story and my work and thinking about public history and slavery in this country America is a place that's done A lot of good for a lot of people America is also a place that does done a lot of harm a lot of people. America is a place that has provided unparalleled, unimaginable opportunities for millions of people across generations in ways that their own ancestors could have never imagined And it's also done so at the direct expense of millions and millions of other people who have been intergenerationally subjugated and oppressed. And both of those things are the story of America But what you have is in administration does not want to account for the totality of America's history and the contradictions and the tensions and the complexities lie therein You have an administration that only wants to tell a very particular A very narrow story about what America is An It wants to tell that story in order to justify the ability to create a new society. in which certain people are in charge of other people ak speaking directly like their white people exist higher on the totem, the proverbial totem pole. than their counterparts and that that is understood as the sort of natural order of things because because what happens is if you don't understand American history. and you don't understand the reason one part of DC looks one way and another part of DC looks another way. you begin to assume that the reason that certain people live in certain communities or in certain conditions is because that is the natural order of things rather than recognizing that it's something that has been done to people or that resources have been extracted from people. And so And if you fail to understand that history that shapes the current landscape of inequality then the current landscape of inequality. Just again, seems seems like it like the sort of natural Oder of things ONDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, ONDeck's loans up to four hundred thousand dollars make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau, and earning thousands of five star trrust pilot reviews, ONDeck delivers funding you can count on. Applying mininutes at onndeck dot com Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. OndDeck does not lend in North Dakota all loans and amounts subject to lender approval So that takes us to where we are today You said you're traveling, going to some America two hundred fifty events. Well, How are you processing where we're at today and the backsliding we've done recently and you know, I think that there are probably going to be some Americans out there that are just gleefully not really contemplating these historical weight of what's happening and just enjoying fireworks and hot dogs. And there's something to be said for that I guess is if you're listening to this podcast right now, you're not one of those people. So I'm wondering how how you're kind of thinking about it and you know what you'd say to people who are was struggling with trying to with where we're at on this anniversary you know, we were we were just talking about how America's place that has done a lot of good and also a place that's done a lot of harm a place that's provided a lot of opportunity place that has intentionally prevented people from having any opportunity It's interesting, you know, I had the young readers's edition of How the Word is Past come out last year and I was talking to a bunch of middle schoolers going on these middle school tours Dan The way we were talking about it, you know, when I'm sitting with them in their classrooms, is that like? I'm somebody. who has done things in my life that I'm proud of. And I'm somebody who's done things in my life that I'm not proud of I'm hum And I make mistakes and what I try to teach my children how I try to be in community with people. is not that you pretend as if you never made a mistake or pretend as if you never did anything wrong What you tried to do is you acknowledge your mistake You recognize the thing you did wrong and you try to learn from it and address it so that you can become a better version of yourself in the future And if that's the standard I hold, myself to. if that's the standard I hold my children to. If that's the standard these middle schoolers hold themselves to then why would we not hold our country? the very same standard, right? Like we recognize that America is a lot of different things to a lot of different people And in order to understand what the less two hundred and fifty years Ben I think you have to except that that this two hundred and fifty years has looked very different for lots of different people Um and that we are celebrating in many ways, one iteration of, you know, America's birthday. But some would say you know, that America in fact should have a different birthday and it should be nineteen sixty five R? Because that's not actually that is actually when you had black people and u a wider range of citizens who were able to more fully participate in the democratic process. And if the goal of America is to be this sort of singular multir racial, multi ethnic, multi faith democracy in a way that has never existed in the history of the world at this scale, certainly then then our job is to acknowledge what it takes to to get there and we sixty one though. And so I mean, around its retirement age by the time Trump gets almost ARP Yeah, I was she just gonna hang it up. You know it was a good try. We did it sixty five years. I do think like the aspiration of America is a noble one And I think it is a remarkable one. Again, like there's There's nowhere else on eararth that has tried to do what we are doing R That is tried to with this many millions of people of this many millions different backgrounds to build a country and sustain a country and sustain peace in a country that has peopleople with so many different U facets of their identity And to do it in a democratic way. Can I be a downer? Can I just be the downer? I know I used to be the Republican and I I should be like the flag wayir for the time was my favorite holiday as a kid. it's become melancholy. I wish it wasn't so. I don't know, man, Canada seems to be doing it all right. and it's not quite at the scale of us, but there are many millions people in Canada. there are black people, Asian people, brown people.ve it's's a And that's a new thing for Canada true. Right. Like I mean, what is true is that the level of immigration that Canada has, the sort of the extent to which Canada is a multiracial ac is a pretty new thing for them, certainly relative to us. I mean, they and they don't have our history R likeike they don't have this history of enslavement. They don't have the same history of immigrants of so many different backgrounds having been in this country For so long and and not I think Kend is great Toronto iss one of favorite cities, shhout outs Canada. Their soccer team is doing great right now. loveove watching them in the World Cup. But I think that what America is trying to do at our best in spite of what we have done to so many people Um is an effort is a goal proud to be a part of even if I recognize how far we are and how in many ways, we're backsliding T where we want But you know, they thing I think about those all the time because U I have to say I wrote this book on history of slavery and The thing I tell people and I think about this all the time is First enslaved people came to the British colonies that would become the United States in sixteen nineteen Slavery didn't end formally until eighteen sixty five But from the moment enslaved people arrived on these shores They were fighting for freedom They arere fighting for emancipation. They're fighting for liberation What that also means is that the vast majority of people who fought for freedom never got a chance to experience it for themselves But they fall for it anyway. because they knew that someday someone would. And I think all the time about how my life is only possible how my children's lives are only possible because of generations of people who fought for something, they knew they might never see but who fought for it anyway because they knew that s someomeday someone would. And I think about what is my responsibility R? I think about what responsibilities does this bestow upon me is episte pon My kids to try to build this sort of world and build a sort of country that we might not see ourselves but to try to build it anyway, to try to be part of the project of making it what it' set out to be. even if we don't get to reap the benefits of it. And it's like we're all chipping away at this wall. And you don't know if the wall is Six inches thick or six thousand miles thick. for what you know. is that the more you chip away at it The less the people who come after you will have to chip away And I think that that's part of what sustains me in moments like this where things feel hard. and when things feel as if they're not moving in the way that we want them to. in moments where it feels as if progress is fleeting I remember that I am part of a history that I am part of a tradition of people who gave their lives and who fought over the course of their lives. build a sort of country u that They knew they wouldn't see and to build it for people they knew they would never meet but to do it anyway And so that's, you know, that's what I think about You know, my fourth of July is juneenth And that's what I think about when Juneteenth comes around And I think about it again a few weeks later when july fourth comes around because and I think it's appropriate that they are in close proximity to one another because I think Juneenth To me is a reminder of what the fourourth of July can be or should be Um and and uh Yeah, it's just work, man. We just got to put in the work You you're stiring a little something to I me. I'm not ready to wave my little mini American flag yet, but it's pretty good. I'm getting there I'm curious about the kids book. I haven't read the kids version of how the Word is passed But You know, you're talking about this conversations with the middle schoolers just does kind of make me wondering a lot of people probably having these kind of conversations with kids as we get, you know, I mean, Trump's gives us a big speech on the fourourth of July night and the fireworks. And you know, if I was a parent in DC you or trying to process like how to talk to the kids about that if you or or they hide it from them I'm just kind of wondering like this is heavy stuff. I mean, for people that didn't read the book, I it's, you know, you're going to these gold plantations and speaking to ancestors and talking about and speaking to Confederate reenactors and trying to grapple with the legacy of this a couple hundred years later, or I guess over one hundred years later And u Like how is that different when you're talking to the younger people? how do you frame it in a way you know, that gets a good reaction out of them that you feel like is valuable. I think that For kids, the idea of like the both endedness of America, the duality of America is one that feels very easy to digest. It's the grownups that come and mess everything up, right? Like its the kids are like, yeah, America's done good stuff and America's done bad stuff. Today Do do the really bad stuff though, do you Do you s the edges down of it I think you talk about things in a way that's developmentally appropriate, right?ike I. And I think about this with my kids all time, right? I got a nine year old and a seven year old. And I don't want it to be the case My children uh, you know, are never introduced to you know, really difficult topics until they are sixteen years old. I think that that would be failure But when I Talk to them You know, especially like they are children who are the descendants of Enslaved people. They are the descendants of Nigerians They are the descendants of Pilgrims And so they carry within them Like a lot of the the sort of dynamic stories of what makes America what it is. And so you know it's important for us to talk about the history of colonialism that created. the Civil War that led their grandmother to come from Nigeria to America. It's important for us to talk about the fact that my grandfather, you know, their great grandfather who we just visited in New Orleans last week that his grandfather was enslaved R And like what implications that has for the world they live in and to remind them how recent these parts of history are. And again You know, my nine year old can talk I can talk about it with him in a way that I have to be more mindful of with my seven year old as each kid is different, each age is different And so you, I wouldn't say it's like sanding the edges necessarily But I think it's knowing Kning who your kid is, knowing who your audience is And and trying to get a sense of what way you can introduce the subject matter to them O. oververwhelming them It's tough man I got a year old and you know, I do think It's interesting that you talk about about the ways that your kids have all, you know, this different stuff within them because It's just been a challenge for me. I was a white kid growing up in Denver in the white suburbs. and You know, I learned Rosa Parks, I learned about Martin Luther King and it feels like something that is from anotherother world. right. it felt to me growing up like it something that had no impact on me at all or my family. And it wasn't until I was older that I even like that like really I realized was like, oh wait That happened in the sixties, like my parents were ae. You know what I mean? Like it's black and white. It just like feels like such history And countnter that to living in the Nrlandans with my daughter growing from Norherland beinging black with all the history of that being everywhere around us. You know, beinging at a school where you're starting to learn that stuff, you're like, oh, wait, those were my people, you know that had to suffer through that I don't know, it's just something that like I feel like kind of I'm going through it the first time with her and trying to figure out how to to Be constructive. and be positive while also being honest, you know We as parents, I think, have to be mindful of So various constraints that we have, like theyre both the opportunities that we have and the constraints we have in the way we talk about these things, right? So like I am the descendant of enslaved people and can speak to that history in a way that is deeply personal in a way that I cannot speak to what it means to be an immigrant from Nigeria, right?ike But my wife can speak to my kids about her mother's experience you know and what it means to be a child who has to walk from Nigeria to Cameroon on her brother's back as as a as a young girl to escape a war that killed millions of people what it means to not know when you're going to get your next meal, becausecause of my subjectivity. there's a way that I can speak to that, but it's also shaped by my proximity to that experience or not. And so I think for any parent, You know, Part of it is figuring out like to what extent are we bestowing information on our kids or versus to what extent are we also being like We're on this learning journey together, right? A lot of things with my kids, I'm like, I don't know. let's figure it out. and we're going to learn, you know, whether it's about history or whether it's about something happening, you know, that's more personal. I think there is power. in and parents having the humility to be like I'm still learning about this too, and I'm still trying to figure this out also Andw we're just kind of bestowing our own trauma on them for no reason our own. just. I thought it'd be fun. You did the show Crasscore' Black American history on YouTube I did. And just, you know, to honor the two hundred fifieth I wouldd be fine. I picked two out of the blue that I thought were interesting. Okay. And and we're going to quiz you, see how good your memory is. It's been It's been on my show's videos Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, we're gonna quiz you on your own show. So watch out. How do scripts. be immortalized. They were like, well, they werere like eleven minutes, like ten minutes or something. You only need to pull from that brain of yours, like, forty five seconds ofax. L I'm just looking at a rapid fire fax on two of your crash course. I want you to crash course me If you fail, it's if you that's o. I mean, you know, you seem like you' a straight aed student. I might need towh them to be toh that's fine. I'm just gonna to put it disclaimer. here we go. Shiry Chisholm Are you asking me who she is I want you to crashourse, meate whatever crashope you got in your brain. Oh, I'm crash coursing you. I love crash Cour into a verb. Shirley Chisholm was the first black woman to run for president as a Democratic nominee and I guess she wasn't the Democratic nomine, but she was the first person to be in that part of that primary. And she she's the sort of in many ways considered a sort of foremother for so many black women in politics. She was incredibly progressive in her policy stances. She you know Many ways people say that she laid the groundwork for Kamala Harris to run for president And And I think there's still a lot of lessons that people pull from her in terms of her advocacy for the poor. She was very involved in food stamps and trying to make sure that working families and mothers, particularly families of color, but also white families had the social support she needs and just really believed in building the social safety net of America to take care of those who had the lease Let's go I picked this one because I I did not know anything about Byt Rustin like until grown adulthood, which was pretty embarrassing to me as a gay man. Once I first learned about him, I went on a big rust and deep dive And you did one of these on another guy that I'd learned as part of that deep dive, which is Philip Randolph and Vard Rustin and the march that they were planning before the Kang March So crash coursess on that Bod Bston was really among the most amazing civil rights leaders in American history. He was in many ways, a sort of guide, a sort of mentor to Dr. King. He helped Dr. King conceive of and make sense of and implement his of nonviolence through the civil rightights movement. He took the lessons from Gandhi, from India and helped to create the infrastucture of the civil rightights movement in the fifties and sixties. He is also someone who helped along with Afield Randolph to plan the march on Washington. And people, I think, take for granted like how much of a of a lift that was, right? Like to plan are like, you know the food, the bathrooms, to get the permits to find the speakers, to do. I mean, like it was Really really going to stay. someome of these places are like to stay like Yeahah hundred percent. And for like hundreds of thousands of people And he did all of this and obviously created these what is in many ways the sort of seminoal moment, one of the seminoal moments in civil rights history. But he as you alluded to, was a gay man. And because of that, he was often pushed back both metaphorically and literally behind many others because at this time, many civil rights leaders thought that it would undermine the civil rights effort if a queer black manen were at the forefront of those efforts. And and it's really a shame because he He was a remarkable person And he was really he similarly was deeply invested in ensuring that America created not only the conditions for black people to be successful and to have the opportunity to achieve social mobility, but also you know, as mirrored in many ways by Dr. King's evolution on economic rights, you know was was deeply invested in ensuring u that he was creating the conditions or working toward the conditions for the working class as a whole to ascend, right to create you know, the the sort of human dignity and economic dignity that was necessary for people to live a sort of meaningful life. You, this could have been a history podcast. This we're gonna to end it. I promise you Ao. Talman wrote me this. as you mentioned, you're you're from New Orleans. Your brother, when he comes to visit, he calls me. I hear you were It seems like you were here last week. You didn't call me, but that's okay. My feelings aren't hurt next time. He said this Clint never had a left foot in soccer and he only he only had one move. stop, stop go So st stuff go there's to be said about slow, slow fast. That's all you need. I don't need scissors. I don't need, you know, these Ronaldo moves Ronald D sometimes you're just the fast kid and you just go slow, you go slow and then you go fast. Do you do you have a World Cup projection for us We're taping the Tednesday afternoon. so I mean, the team you picked might have lost by the time it's theirs, but Yeah, so I lived in Senegal for a little while. and That place is so near and dear to my heart. I mean it was a hugely transformative experience for me. And I love how they play. You know I've loved them since the part of what inspired me to go there was the two thousand two World Cup where they beat France one zero in what is still one of the greatest upsets in World Cup history. right after France were the defending world Champions and you know, I always remember that gol papa papa Booba Jiff and Al Haji Juf and those guys, Andri Camera, an amazing team. and now they've got like a really good squad. They they snuck through to the knockout stages I think if they get going They can make a run. They might have lost by the time this plays on Friday As we're taping, you can go watch the second half. They're up one now right now against Belgium. Are they up one zero? I just look. There we go Franc has got a pretty easy, p. I mean, Frances, have you been watching a video? I don't I don't soccer, you know. You don't soccer. But even people who don't socer socer during the world. Yeah, that's true. can like tap in. Yeah. I fall asleep to it, you know, which is nice. It's a good. the background noise is' soothing British announcec. Are you doing foox soccer or are you doing To? Fox Should I do Tleamundo? I feel like it's a different sort of experience when you do Teleamundo. Okay. Let's try Teleamundo. I't I appreciate how excited people get about it. I had an emergency it's to fly out of Aspen. People don't want to hear my travel nightmare story. I ended up having to take a car down all the way to Denver. It was long drive and the driver was from Ecuador And so Bro is excited And Ecuador lost last night to Mexico. But I feel like totally briefed on all of the South American teams because it was a very long drive. So shout out to that guy. I kind of I'm up to speed on Mexico. that's not South America. I'm aware, but Paraguay Argentina Okay now Ecuador's out. So I'll be monitoring. So I'm rooting for Senegal. I think it'll be France because they're just stacked. And then you know, we'll see what our boys from the US do. You can't lose to Bosnia. All right Clint Smith manan