Cameron Kasky on DSA and Politics

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. I'm going to be honest with you. I am online way more than I probably should be. And between me and everyone else at my house, we've got a zillion screens going on at any given moment. So when my internet slows down, it is a full crisis. That's why having fast, reliable internet that can keep up really matters and why you need optimum famously Fast Fiber Internet Optimum fiber blows flaky five G out of the water and keeps it cool with the fastest and most reliable speeds that don't slow when things heat up. And right now, they have the deal of the summer, just thirty dollars a month for five years. So don't wait, callall eight eight eight for optimum. Visit optimum dot com or stop by your local optimum store today Famously Fast Fiber for thirty dollars a month for five years. You can't beat it Terms apply, see optimum. com for details Welcome to Bull Boark Podcast I' your host Tim Miller. We got aouble header for you today in segment two, it's the podcast' favorite Gen Z bisexual quasi communist. We're assessing what's been happening with the DSA in the primaries. That's I mean Kameron Kaski, of course, but first She's a New York Times White House correspondent, author of Confidence Man and co author with Jonathan Swann of the new book Regime Change inside the Iperial Presidcy of Donald Tump's of course,agg Haran what's up gir? How are you? Thanks for having me. I'm doing great. It's been a minute and it seems it's like you guys have sold so many of these books. Can I just say I'm just gonna say it. This is we have this relationship. I can just be blunt I don't get it I mean, o. people want to relive the first year of the Donald Trump presidency in written form and long form. I mean, I understand wanting to watch Yellowstone reruns you know, or the World Cup It's your magic. I appreciate your talk having me on to talk about a book that you say you don't understand why people want to read, but I am grateful that I read. I after reading it I under it Iate that. There There are very long queues at libraries, which is great. In all seriousness, there's a very long audible ceue I don't think it's about reliving it, Tim, honestly, because This book nearly killed us. and I know Jonathan's line, my co author's line is always, We're not in Falluja and we're not, and that's correct. But this was incredibly hard to do because this is not term one. This is not walking around with what Swan would call the slot bucket and you're waiting for you know you're scooped to just drop into it because everybody was fighting and everybody was leaking and you know, half of that government, if not more, half that White House, if not more viewed Trump as dangerous or at least unmoored for some of them and were concerned about his behaviors. This is a group of people who are relatively tight knit. They really believe in Trump. They want to see him succeed. If they are concerned about some things that they see, they believe in his worldview, and they want to see his agenda implemented. So this took us a really long time, but this was For us, this wasn't reliving last year, this was trying to understand much more about last year. And It took a really long time, and we focused on various aspects of how Trump has transformed we'll see what aspects of it are permanent, but I think more than people realize, he has transformed the US presidency into something very different than we've ever seen in our lifetimes. And that was the impetus for the title regime change because We are witnessing a form of it in our own country Yeah. Well, with the Supreme Court news yesterday, I may that's a good place to start but the way that he is know changing the nature of the presidency. You have a scene in the book where This walking around saying, I'm immune, I'm immune And and it does like that is another element of this, right? Like it's not only that he has a different staff, but it's this idea that he feels like he has You know, it's carte blanche to do whver he wants that there's no consequences what he wants. He doesn't have to follow the laws. He can just make declarations by fiat and there isn't anybody that can stop him Well, there's a couple of aspects, and you're right that it is not just one thing. There are many, many factors as to why this presidency has been the way it has and why he has expanded executive power to a degree that I think you know it was foreseeable that there would be an expansion exactly how it has gone has been at rapid speed and as maximalist as they've been able to do You know this. every president for decades now has incrementally expanded executive power. Sometimes it's bigger increments than others. But obviously the biggest was right after nine hundred and eleven during the Bush presidency, secondcond Bush presidency This is just, you know, orders of magnitude different and it's a combination of factors. It's the fact that he became much stronger in you know within his own party during the years out of power, the fact that being banned off of social media really did help him, frankly, because he was relegated to trueh social A lot of people were not seeing his most caustic social media declarations The whole premise of our case, and I frankly think it's hard to argue otherwise is that he is He is in a much better position than he would have been with two consecutive terms because he would have been dealing with post pandemic inflation. He would have been dealing with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, which may not have gone exactly the way it did under Biden, but there's no reason to think that it would have been easy or smooth. He became something of a mystical figure within his party and certainly for his staff and Be of all of these things that he went through indictments, a conviction, criminal conviction, civil suits, two assassination attempts and onward so many of the congressional Republicans are both in awe of him and in fear of him. And so He could not have accomplished a lot of what he has so far, at least in terms of keeping his party in line had he not been wielding them with what he and his team proudly describe as an iron fist. And so various factors have led to why we are where we are Let's go to the start know this stuff like the difference of the term and the immunity that he feels for himself and the immunity that he feels for his criminal fans was evident as you're reporting, I think the first time, like from day one, he was contemplating, I guess putting The J six pardons in the inaugural address of the second term We have this remarkable scene early on in the book, actually, where they were preparing for his inaugural address, which is obviously a very different inauguration than had been planned. It was in the Capitol Rotunda notable because this was where there was this riot on january sixth, twenty twenty one in this effort to stop an electoral college certification of Joe Biden's victory So they had been discussing what to do about pardons with people who were convicted in connection with the JS six riot for some time. And they had done this big evaluation led by Dave Warringon, now the White House counsel on different groups, mostost people around Trump did not think that there were going to be pardons of people who had say attacked police officers, but that did end up happening, and Trump was planning to include a line saying that he was going to do sweeping pardons for what he calls the J six hostages And an aide said to him, you know, and there were these sessions preparing for the speech. And one of the aides said, you know, this is going to be a bipartisan crowd. And if you do that A bunch of Democrats are going to get up and walk out and it just may not be the visual you want. And so Trump said, OK, find, you know good call. And as we said, this was, you know, essentially his last concession to decorum, because he goes on pardens them all later that day. But it was remarkable that he even wanted to put this in the speech and that one of his first acts as president was issuing this roughly fif five hundred grants of clemency remains astonishing and exactly how he was thinking about doing it and how these discussions went gets almost lost in all of the activity of the first three months. That ties down into what JD was saying this week about Nixon for me, how JD's talking about You know how there's a Ret Nixon Renaissance and Watergate would only be a twelve hour story. I thought that was just very instructive of their mindset know we're talking about this like Trump selectking on saying I'm immun Day one, he's pardoning the violent criminals or his supporters. Now they're like, and Watergate's not that big of a deal. I mean, just 're unapologetic We can do what we want. Laws don't apply to us is I mean, I think pretty plain throughout the book. What I do think Vance was right about is that it would have been a twelve hour story, essentially or a multi days. That is true in this news environment. There's no question. it would have come out in your book though. would have been another twelve hours that even. But look at, you know, what happened yesterday was also that you know, President Trump filed his financial disclosures and that was actually on paper how much money he has made off this presidency while in office, which is it's breathtaking. We haven't seen anything like it. But to your question about pardons and the mindset You're right that Trump goes into this term with a presidential immunity ruling that came out of one of his indictments where they were his team was took it all the way up to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court rules that all presidents have immunity for presidential acts, official acts in office, exactly what that means. we still don't know, Tim, because that hasn't been tested. but The belief is it will be pretty broad For this president. I know what he thinks it means that Well, he's quite clear rep on that in the book. You know I'm immune is what he says. And he has said that he is going to pardon and we report this. many, many times he has said to people that he is going to issue a preemptive pardon to anyone who's come within two hundred fifty feet of the Oval Office. Sometimes he says two hundred. sometometimes he says twenty five. What's clear is there's a pardon radius, right around the Oval Office. We spoke to several people who have said to us, you know they' counting on their own pardon, they expect that they will get one. And so It does create a certain mindset Good thing for state attorneysy general. A couple of the other early things that you get through in the book that I think it's worth just touching on again is Musk feels so long ago So we're tal about a year now of the U USAID getting shuttered And u It almost feels like it from a totally different era. but When're going to the book. The M stuff is still five of the most astonishing things that has happened and the things that will have the most consequences. And you paint the scene, I had not had this mental image in my head of Musk I guess took up an office slash residence in the EEOB Secretary of W Suite And he had like big video game screens And you'd sit up all night playing video games and you'd call Trump and be like, Hey, I have a new thing for us to cut from the government You're right, that that entire period of time where Musk essentially was a co president with Trump, you know, wasn't officially a co president but was basically a co president because he was just making these decisions by FIiat. and often Trump's own staff would learn about it later But it was really important for us to get inside these discussions and describe what was happening in part because When you look back on it, Tim, it really did essentially divert or distract at minimum a lot of Trump's own staff, actual staff, from what they wanted to do in the first several months. And there might have been some overlap between, say Elon Musk and Stephven Miller, but there was not always clear lockstep. There might have been overlap between Elon Musk and Russ Vote, but there was not always clear lockstep on how they wanted to do things and how they wanted to get to these ends. And so Musk really was just sort of roaming free. He had an office in the West wing that he would describe as a hovel That's a quote. And so he moved to the grand Secretary of War suuites in the Eisenhower exxecutive offffice buildilding. and it's really they're remarkable rooms. But yes, this became his space. He would sometimes then Right with a few others. and he would look at aspects of the federal government, according to our reporting, and again, according to our reporting, you know, he would call Trump and they would have these lat night discussions. and it would be about various entities that musk wanted to get rid of. you know, one, according to what we were told in our reporting, was getting rid of the equal Employment opportunity Commission. So that obviously can't just be eradicated. He focused very aggressively on ending USAID, a congressionally established agency and an agency that, yes There have been many complaints about it particularly from the conservative spectrum of politics, but evenven if you got rid of certain pieces of it, it also delivered vital aid to a lot of countries. And got rid of it just gone or you created so much chaos that it became impossible to even continue with its mission that gets sort of lost in the shuffle too. And the person who was left holding the bag on that and we describbe this in the book from our reporting was Markco Rubio, who was the secretary of state at the time only. He wasn't dual hed at that point as the national seecurity advisor as well that he wasn't especially thrilled to have to be doing this mop up after Musk. And it is really easy to track how there was the splits of activity and I shouldn't say easy, but we can track, and we did in our book There splits of activity and just overwhelming Washington And some of it was stuff that Trump wanted and some of it he would then later not be so thrilled had happened. But the Musk era seems like a distant memory, and it was so dominant for the first several months of this presidency So you said Marco was left hold in the bag there and USAID. The other reporting for the book something I've been obsessed with on the show is what is happening the the original decision making around Sicot in the El Salvador prison. And you have a couple of scenes of Marco basically directly doing this deal with Bukelee And u That's pretty relevant. I think, obviously, from the standpoint of you know, they end up sending innocent people to a foreign gulag. Number one, and it's maybe the biggest human rights violation of the administration, but you know also number two of kind of the what Marco's role is going to be in the administration. So it's interesting because I agree with you that I think that that's gotten much less attention than I expected it would only because for people who know of Marco Ribio from a decade and a half ago He was a senator who a very young senator elected during that Tea Party wave, as you know, who had been part of the efforts to do some kind of a comprehensive immigration reform bill. And To be clear, he didn't have this conversion on foreign policy the year Trump was elected again. I mean, if you look at his speeches between twenty twenty and twenty twenty four, he'd actually been taking a much more intervention skeptic, hemisphere specific approach to foreign policy, but it was still remarkable to us gettingetting inside this scene where he's in, you know, Bu Kelly's palace, essentially, and they are with a handful of aides around them And they're hashing out this proposal, which was initially supposed to be about some form of a safe third agreement. I'm using the description for how these deals worked in Trump w But instead, Bukelele offers up Cacut, which is this gulog that is known as essentially a horror show for people who are there as an option for sending the worst of the worst is what this was supposed to be. And you can see how this all gets set up. SeCOot then ends up playing a very significant role in the first major effort to do some kind of mass deportation, even though it was relatively small in terms of who were on these migrant flights But people who were rounded up who were supposed to be you know, according to the government proven members of gangs because they had ted these people very rigorously and rigor of veting prove not to be the case, but these men get sent to to Seaot, and so much attention was placed on Se Godot because one of the people who was sent there had a no deportation order to El Salvador. And the administration then found itself wrapped up in this controversy for weeks and weeks and weeks last year. But I did find this image of Rubio sitting Bu, who is you know, a notorious dictator and hashing out this plan should be emblematic of what this administration was going to look like And I think that's noteworthy because sometimes people try to use Marco as an exception of somebody that's not always emblematic of the administration, like that he's the grown up in there. And for him to be the point person on this, I think is particularly noteworthy. And I mean, he had a lot of Venezuelan representes, you know constituents in Florida. Yes. And it's like he's sending innocent Venezuelans to a foreign prison And it's it's kind of unimaginable Rubio has really thrown himself into the And this was our reporting in the book. And again, it's just all laid out there. He has really thrown himself into the Trump plan and the Trump foreign policy approach. And so are there individual conversations? It's not all binaryian and it's not all black and white. Are there individual conversations where Rubio is you know more vocal about concerns on one aspect of foreign policy or national security than another? Absolutely. But is he somebody who is blocking and tackling from some imagined version of what this would all look like, especially based on people's understandings of Term one. No, he's not. I mean, again, this presidency toim and this was really One of the things that became clear to us as Jonathan and I were working on the book, it is unrecognizable to term one. And so there is, I think this desire in the commentary around it, not the book, around the presidency, the current presidency to say you know, it's like those memes of Rubio sitting on the couch Right And have been like the John Kelly or Jim Matis role from the first time, which is like just not what's happening. Yeah, there is a big desire people who are watching this administration who don't like Trump and who are hoping that there will be some kind of a constraint on him internally to treat Rubio as if he is, you know Yes, John Kelly or Jim Matis, both of whom consider Trump dangerous, and both of whom believed that the country needed to be protected from him, then they found his worldview detestable. There is just nothing about Marco Rubio and our reporting to indicate that that is where he is at all. And I'll tell you, Tim, just having been in the White House on Upper press, which is where the press secretary's officeices prior to them deciding that reporters could not walk around there without appointments. Rubio is just, he's in and out of Caroline Levitt's office all the time you know, he looks like he is having of his life. I mean, he is enjoying being in this role He rarely travels He is almost always in the West Wing and often in the Oval Office because and this is something else that we describe, in the book. These decisions in this government are being made by about a half a dozen people, depending on the issue, it's maybe eight people But There are senior ranks of major significant agencies, the State Department, the Pentagon at the CIA, where If you're not in the room with Trump, you have no idea what's going on. And so Rubio does not travel the way we are used to seeing seecretaries of state do because he is both the national security advisor and the seecretary of state, and he believes he needs to be near Trump Well I'm glad he' having the time of his life. That's nice. You know, The innocent Venezuelans got sent to Gulag, not as much, but God Marco having fun. Your point about the six to eight people to make the decisions. One of the things that struck me about the book is there are a couple exceptions to that which is like random people come up with some of their Kakameamei plans You know, like I was reaching through I just kind of you know, not as important of one as Sicot, for example, but like Lindsey Halligan, I guess, got upset about you know, one of the exhibits at the Portrait Gallery and this leads to some of the drama over fighting people at the Portrait Gallery. You know, Boris Epstein comes up with the rand idea like the arch. someome of these ideas are just coming from random people and then Trump is running with them. Is that's how the government's running now, basically? I would cast it slightly differently, which is that I mean, look to be clear, Trump has always been someone who you know, if his official staff doesn't agree with something he wants to do, he'll go call people outside, right? and ask their opinion. But One of the things that's remarkable this time is that his information flow is It's much more bubbled than it was last time. He's not on Twitter anymore. He used to scroll Twitter a lot and he would look at the trending topics and he would look at the replies. and he would get a little bit more of a sense of what a broader conversation was Now he just looks to truth social he gets this constant stream of positive news from his His aide, Natalie Harp, who we also talk about in the book, who is about as pure an example of a Trump devotee in this term, as you will find She's in almost every meeting sitting on the side of the Oval Office with her laptop open, and she's known as the human printer because she used to carry this portable printer around with her battery charge to int And she would literally follow him around on the golf course, sometimes on foot, running after the cart and be able to give him information Lindseay Halligan was actually an official government employee. She worked in the staff seecretary's office. She was one of his lawyers when he was in the intergnum period And He likes her a lot. He would often comment on her looks. but she was, I believe, an insurance lawyer. I think that was her specialty She was not a criminal defense lawyer and she was not a prosecutor She'd gone to one of the Smithsonians institutions, museums. She had seen something she didn't like And she flagged it internally and we describe in in a chapter in the book that I do find pretty remarkable in terms of where the country is right now on the verge of celebrating a two hundred and fiftieth anniversary This chapter really lays out how Trump has tried to leave an imprint on every aspect of American life. and has used this sort of bullying campaign whether it's the media, whether it's law firms who hired people who went after him or worked on cases against him education, Harvard, museums and descriptions of U. S. history. He was open that he thinks there's too much focus on slavery. I think that was a true social post So after Lindsey Halligan has this discussion about the National Portrait Gallery Trump starts insisting and he has already done an executive order or a presidential memorandum about about getting control of what is shown in these museums at the Smithsonian institutions, museums and research centers The Smithsonian is currently led by its first ever black secretary, Lonnie Bunch. Lonnie Bunch was a founder of the first National African American History Museum He is also a lifelong researcher, historian has worked for the Smithsonians for a very long time on and off. And so it's really been his identity And ank. already was not thrilled with Lonnie Bunch because Lonnie Bunch had written a chapter in his own book in twenty nineteen about taking Trump to the African American Museum and taking him early on in Trump's first term to look at an exhibition about the slave trade. And when they got to a portion about the Dutch role in the slave trade, the president's response, according to Bunch was, you know, you know they love me in the Netherlands and Bunch was very jred by this response Trump got obsessed with firing the head of the National Portrait Gallery, Kim Saget was demanding she be fired. The Smithsians were set up to be structured so that It would really be out of the direct reach of the White House. It had always been that way. Now the Vice president gets a role on' the Board of Regents Board of Regents is always led by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, currently John Roberts There are senators who serve on it is supposed to be very balanced in this term, Vance and a far more aggressive appointee. Congressman Jimez from South Florida made all kinds of demands on Sagget being fired, the head of the National Portrait Gallery on what kind of art was being shown We have a remarkable scene in the book on june ninth at their seasonal meeting. where as they were arguing again about Kim Sagget being fired, Vance steps out of the room and it's this thirty something eight advance's named Ben Moss sits in in Vances Steeden takes out an iPad. and flips through it and shows this this image of the artist Amy Sheralds trans womoman as the Statue of Liberty. It was based on a trans model. And that show was supposed to be coming from the Whitney Museum in New York to Smithsonians Amy Sheryl is a very, very celebrated artist. She did a portrait of Michelle Obama, among other things, which really put her on the map in a broader way And Ben Mos sits there and says in front of this room, including John Roberts You know, this is going to be a problem. This is not what Americans want to see and there's this whole debate about what kind of art can be shown. and politicizing art and it was look, it's not the first time in American history there's been a conversation about politicizing art, but I can't think of a directive like this coming from the White House ever before And so All of this is indicative to us anyway, yes, of how one person can get in Trump's ear, as you say. and say go focus on that. And we have seen lots of examples of that In that case, it wasn't, it was somebody part of his government. I mean, again I can't express to you how different this term is than last time Bill Pouty, who features in the book pretty extensively too, is now the director of National intntelligence. So this is a government that just looks fundamentally different than term one All right, we're taking back the fourth of July at the Bulwark. Donald Trump and MAGAa is trying to own July fourth and patriotism in general That's fucking stupid We shouldn't let them do that Right It's our country. It's here. We're here. We're queer. We're Americans. We love it. We're patriotic. We can wave the flag That is about the values that we all share as fellow Americans It is about that creed. JD Vance and Donald Trump want to pretend like we're not a nation based on a Creed or a nation based on Like their whiteness and orangeness And that just ain't true And so We're going to take back the holiday. hope you join us and do it along with us. If you've been thinking about becoming a member in the Bllwark community right now is the moment. this week only fourourth of July week We've got a deal for you. a full Bulwark membership for everything we offer on our website. eighty six bucks a year That's fourteen percent off. So come on, do it. This is your moment. The bulwark dot com slash july four. Again, the bulwark.ot com slash july four. We'll put a link in the show notes Come a board clust member, come hang, yellp at the comments. It'll be great USA You mentioned Natalie Harp, the printer. I do have to ask about this. You also in the book that she leaves little mash notes for Trump around I was kind of the view that Trump is probably impotent now because he just doesn't talk about sex as much as he used to. but I don't know, it was eyebrow raising, the love notes that you included that What we found in our reporting for the book is we got these these these letters that she had been leaving and his in his private spaces and they were They were very raw, they were very emotional In one, she said, You are all that matters to me. And Natalie Harp used to work for the far right OAN network spoke at the twenty twenty cononvention started working for him in I think it was late twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two and became this constant supplier of good news. But these notes that she was leaving alarmed the Secret Service who were concerned about it, who raised issues about it at the time Trump has been open with people that you know She's the person who loves him on staff as much as his, you know, wife and children And he'll say things like you know, the rest of you will go off and make money. She will never leave me. So without commenting on your first lead in there. she is You don't have any reporting on the impotence. She is very, very focused on him and on being in his world. And I will just tell you that You know, when he every day that he was going to court For instance, when he was on trial in twenty twenty four in Manhattan Natalie Harp was always, always, always with him. She was among a very small group of people who would go with him in this interview when Jonathan and I went in when our reporting was basically done for the book to fact check specific pieces with Trump. There were very few aIDes in this meeting, which is unlike him because normally he rolls very then brings a lot of like half the government in. and it's like you and one other reporter. But in this case, it was just know Caroline Levittt, Stephven Chg and Natalie against the wall. So It's unusual, I will say, but I don't know, we'll see. what more we learn about that. You mentioned as soon we go back to that interview? I believe if I'm right, this is it was like two or three weeks after the Iran warar started when you went back to see Trump for the fact check Yeah, was D day seventeen of the war I was interested when I was listening your other interviews. Obviously, there was all the discussion and conversation around the BB meeting in the situation room. It was just so shocking. It was the first excerpt from your book. But another thing that you talk about a lot is just that like Trump himself was actually much more adamant about going into Iran and much more hawkish on Iran even before that. and maybe people didn't kind of realize that, you know, based on reporting from private conversations. And I'm interested in that reporting from the first year and how that squares with what we're seeing right now. which is him so desperate to get out. It's a great question. And one of the things that we really did C and our reporting and we document in the book is Trump has always been more hawkish on Iran than his own te. Now obviously, Trump had spent two campaigns, twenty sixteen, twenty twenty four, saying no new foreign wars. So there's clearly a reason why people expected he would not then go get into a war in Iran. but It was very clear. if people were actually looking at what he was saying looking at his conversations with Netanyahu he was much more open. And we have this remarkable scene where Netanyahu goes right after Trump is shot at Butler and Netanyahu goes to Mar a Lago to make peace with Trump because Trump had been furious with Netanyahu for years because Trump believed that Netanyahu had committed a sin by congratulating Joe Biden on winning the election in twenty twenty So Netanyahu goes to try to make up for this and During one of their conversations, Trump makes very clear that he is if he comes back, he is going to be much more aggressive. Trump will against IrM And Trump already was more aggressive against Iran than some of his own advisers wanted in intern one. taking out, you know General Sleimani was not looked unfavorably by some of Trump's own advisors at the time. They believed it was risky you know, he wanted to do it. There was never a question and he was fairly cold as cold blooded as he went to do it. The campaign was hacked by Iran ever since the Sleimani killing Iran has targeted Trump, Iran has targeted several aids around Trump. now There's obviously a whole other side issue where Trump pulls the security some of the people who are carrying out Trumps rran policy in the first term. but Beside that Trump has a very, very dated view of Iran, which goes back to his formative years in the nineteen eighties when Iran was the biggest threat when Jimmy Carter was embarrassed during the hostage crisis, and so forth. Okay. So it was quite clear to Netanyahu's team that Trump was going to be much more on board with this than Trump's own aides believe Trump was fascinated by the pager attacks against Hezbollah is very capable as you know, of telling different people what they what he thinks they want to hear. but was he was very intrigued by the capability of the Israeli military But Trump believed this was going to be a quick war this time. He believed this would be over in a few days. He was flush off of what had happened in Venezuela going into Caracas and snatching a foreign head of state you know in his pajamas and bringing him to the US for trial where no American lives were lost or it was a pretty whatever anyone thinks about what Trump did as a military operation, pretty smoothly Sure. Trump believed this would be something similar. He had a gut feeling And he is operating on pure Gut in a way that he would have liked to inter Term one for various reasons, didn't, One of which was that he was under investigation by special counsel. And I think that gets underlooked a lot as a factor But it obviously was not a quick war. And it's not Tim, onene thing that's really important to remember, he constantly says things like No one, you know, he wasn't warned about this. He didn't he was told what the risks were. Now the only one who really emphatically went out went at this with Trump in these meetings was Jrie Vance But Dan Kaine, who is his top civilian, well, his top military advisor, was veryery clear, you know, munitions could be really depleted. Straight of Hormos could be closed Trp point anyway, and yes, now he would like a way out. The forore of yours thing is interesting about Iran because that's maybe it kind of explains the now too. like he kind of remembers how much this was a b, you know, you know hung over Carter. and he's like, I don't want to. I want to get it, I don't want to deal with this. The JD thing you mentioned, since the book has come out I know that you have extensive sourcing explanation in here and people can look at that. But I just have to ask since the book came out the vice president said that he thinks that you have tapes from inside the situation room There's a lot of things that are sourced that give JD Vance's private views in the book, we should say. So I don't know. I felt like that was maybe a lady Doth protest too much type comment from the vice President, but I was wondering what you thought when he said that. just not going to discuss sourcing at all, Tim. But one thing that I will say about our reporting process is We went to extensive lengths to cheheck on conversations. get a long source note at the start of the book about not just how many interviews we did, which was more than one thousand. But how we went about what we put in direct quotes, what we did not And for many of these scenes, we're describing you know, expansive conversations among the top levels of government, but I'm just not going to discuss sourcing beyond that Yeah, I was nice about surc. I'm I mean, the vice president accused you of publishing information that was Classified via tape. and that was a pretty serious accusation from the vice president. They can say what they want and we're just not going to discuss it All right Let's do more fun stuff. I don't know if people think this is fun. I'll think it's fun. You look like you're having fun.. Yes, God. I'm having a time of my life Not as much as Marco, but trying I'm trying. I'm enjoying myself You say he's getting old He seems to be getting old. People are noticing the aging. He fell asleep standing up on the campaign. Is that right I mean, not in front of a crowd, even asleep after some after some event. But yes, but the That actually, I think, is sort of understandable. That was in the context of how he had been running nonstop at the end of that campaign and he was what you're asking about in terms of the health piece. And I want to be clear If there's an area where we really just failed in our reporting efforts to try to learn more, it was on the health front and it was not for lack of trying. You know his health is one of the black box secrets of this administration. and it is an administration that is very good at keeping secrets when it wants to, despite you know, all protestations about know the most transparent administration ever Some of it is visible. he falls asleep or closes his eyes and does transcendental meditation or whatever you want to call it at four o'clock in the afternoon. many of these events He was outright falling asleep at his trial. And we reported that at the time too in twenty twenty four His sleeping habits have gotten stranger. We describe an episode where He had not been heard from by about ten AM. And so a trusted aid went up to the residents to see. was going on and Trump was still asleep. And what they surmised was, according to our reporting was that he had just been, you up by their watching television or posting or doing whatever and the you fell back asleep late in the morning He's got this chronic venous insufficiency condition. which only got addressed because photographer started taking pictures of his swollen ankles. and it raised questions and He directed the press Scretary, Caroline Levitt to go out and talk about this because he didn't like the coverage of it. And there were a number of people in the White House who thought that talking about Kanks from the podium was an unusual choice, but he is very, very vain and concerned about his appearance you know, I can't speak to the bruises on the hand. you know, we, like everybody else, we werere told Many, many months ago, this is from handandshaking, which seemed hard to understand, but they have released less and less information about his health as he is taking more frequent visits to Walter Reid Beyond the fact that he's an eighty year old man you know, and he looks eighty. we don't know more than you do K It's an interesting's an interesting development. The Kankls. In his room, this was quite the picture. There're like empty ice cream tins and Starbucks wrappers everywhere. He's hoarding papers Like what's happening in his bedrobe? It's disgusting So I just want to make one thing clear. It was Star Bursts and that was a typo and that has been fixed. But so when they came back to the White House, the Trumps wanted everything the way it was before and as if he hadn't left. And the Bidens's actually on the decor front, didn't really change a ton of what the Trumps did But Melania Trump was not there for the first several months. and so Trump was taking items from the center hall in the residence that that the staff believed she wanted where they were. He was putting some in his own bedroom, some in the oval Office at the start of this sort of gilding of the oval Office where now there's really not a square inch that is not covered in something that is gold colored. And he would point to these what he calls the earns on the mantle and he would say, you know, see that. When people see that, they see cash to people who worked at the White House, it seemed like he was competing to have a better bedroom than his wife and they don't have the same bedroom In his bedroom, he, among other things, had a carpeted bathroom for whatever reason Okay. was a late night snacker. potato chip bags, ice cream cartens, Starburst wrappers staff started monitoring the the silverware because some was disappearing into the trash He lives how he lives And he would have those bankers' boxes that they would refer to as the beautiful mind boxes And they were stacked, which you became a fixture of the Marlag O Doccuments indictment. And they were stacked so high that like there would be impressions left in the carpet when they were when they were moved. For some reason it makes me a little better. Yeah, it thingsakes a little better that it's Starburst strappers for some reason. I don't know I was picturing like those disgusting Starbucks morning sandwiches or something. so justust kind of candy ice cream chips D'tock don't knock starbucks burning sandwiches You know the criticism that you get from regular people, not that much criticism since you've sold so many books. that they're like, Hey, why do you save this stuff for a book Why don't you just report it as you get it? I'm not particularly sympathetic to that. I think maybe there's some exceptions to it, maybe in a campaign setting, which this is not. but I just wanted to give you an opportunity kind of address that And, you know, then I'll let you get back on your way. I appreciate you, Tim. So A couple of things. This is a book on the first fourteen months of this presidency that was published in month seventeen, which is And you know this because you do understand how books work. It's an extraordinary fast publication schedule It was supposed to be published in the fall. inststead it is was out last week. So We published the Iran warar reporting immediately in the newspaper. It was five weeks into the war, I think, and it still remains the most comprehensive look at how Trump took the country to war because was it was a vital public interest. we reported on in the paper again on Trump's efforts to possibly suspend habeas corpus for undocumented migrants which was known publicly that he had been talking about this, but we wanted to understand more about that episode. And so it became something of a white whale. And it took months and months and months. and we've got these secret memos that the staff Secretary had written to the White House Chief of Staff, that really reflected both the level of discussion and also the level of concern But again, this was reporting that took months to get done and you know, I think that notot everything there are magazine pieces for newspapers that take longer there are investigative pieces for newspapers that take longer Jonathan took a ten month leave from the newspaper I took five and a half you know, this This work is hard and it took it was incredibly hard confirming this material. So I know there is this misconception about how this works. and I think people think that you know, the phone the hotline rings and you just put it in your your file and then it goes in a book a year later. but Not for us, that is not the case All right, do you dream about these people? Like are these people haunting your nightmares? Oh forg I don't dream any. I don't dream. I don't dream No dream. don't don't I don't sleep enough to dream It I don't h a RIim cycle. I don't But if that changes, I will tell you. promise. I will text you. That sounds right. M. I appreciate that. Meaggie Haerman, you're the best. Thanks so much. The book is Reime change. I got it right here. It's got the pretty gold cover We'll be talking to you soon, all right Next time All right, we are back. He was the former co host of FYPod, a podcast that was taking the nation by storm until he decided to run for Congress unsuccessfully And now He is advising somebody named Rkana and he is a favorite of the pod, the person that we go to, the correspondent that we go to for all things Communism, socialism, bisexuality and clavicular. It's Cameron Casky, what's up? I don't think there's any daylight between those four things. I think you could said any one of them and it covered the whole spectrum. I wanted to grab you because there's a lot of conversation happening out there about what's happened with the DSA, Are they the Ta Party? Are they taking over the Democratic Party? These are your people. you are of them Yes. And you've also been on the road a bunch with Re. You're in Maine, Sam Platner in Michigan with Aid. You live in New York. And so I feel like you're pretty up to speed on what's happening. And so I want to hear about all of your travels. But first can we just do Colorado lastast night? We had a Three old timers up the in the Democratic establishment, Michael Bennett ran for governor. He lost to Scott Wiener, who's like a more progressive challenger, not really DSA. Pause. What Scott Weiner. Oh. Thank you for Phil Wiser Phil Wiser, thank you. Sorry. Wiser Weiener? That's kind of close. I could see Pil W. I could see that. Attorney generenal He lost a Phil Wiser. Thank you Cameron. Lost a Pil Wiser, attorney G genereral more progressive, not Scott Weiener. And then in the Senate race John Hickenlooper beat kind of a DSA is state senator, but not really overwhelmingly. And then in the House Dana Dette who's been the Denver's representative in Congress since I was likeike eight. She lost to Milat Kiros, DSA Barista who seems like she's kind of Your type. B Politically and otherwise. I don't know if if you've had a chance to meet that young lady, Well, I can't speak to that matter. It's a very interesting result. And I'm sure given your history with the state of Colorado, it's specifically interesting for you You know And then there's the wait there's the really hot guy Hm Is that Manny? Yeah, Manny won in Colorado eight. He's handsome. He mogs like all of Congress. Yeah, he's naturally looks maxing. Yeah. Yeah, I remember I texted a friend of mine who's a pollster, Adam Carlson, and I was like, Hey, I know you're following this race. I know this guy is hot like one to ten, how good are politics because that I haven't been able to follow. But no that it's definitely interesting What happened specifically with Milad's race because you know, the immediate response after the, you know, DSA Cy corridor or takeover in New York City was, okay, well, this is a New York City thing You know, you guys, the socialists around the country could get all hopped up onn this adrenaline, that's fine but this is not replicable elsewhere. and immediately after that you have a DSA victory over an incumbent. So that was very interesting to me. And obviously these races, be it Malat' race or the ones in New York City Israel has just been such a polarizing issue and there are certain circumstances where That is definitely, I think the defining issue that is the difference between the two candidates And then there's other situations where being brought up a lot but there's other factors at play. So for example, Darie Liza, who's a famous Twitter user and is now a congresswoman or will be a congresswoman She uncedated Spix. And it's my personal belief that Espiot probably would have been able to squeeze through a victory had he taken the more what is now considered the progressive position on Israel, Palestine. But there's also something that isn't really being talked about as much in the more national side of this conversation, which is that Espayat neglected a lot of groups in his district because he was just skating through with his very robust Dominican base that Black people in Harlem and you know, the white voters in the district, he wasn't really giving them any time. And between the labor groups and the tenants associations and everything, He was on certain things a little bit on autopilot. So I do think had he adjusted on Israel stuff that could have made the difference, but you know, there was there was more to it than that. Now, you know, then there's the question of Goldman versus Lander. Let's come back to Goldman Lander because I want to stick on EViat and I think his him and Digette, I think are an interesting case if you put them together. I'm just going to put a pin in that there for one second and note. in segment one, I asked Maggie Haverman if Donald Trump is impotent or if he's having an affair with a human printer. And she wouldn't quite answer that question. I thought her answer was interesting. But because she's Maggie Haverman, like I couldn't really press her on it. But you're my former podcast co host. So I noticed that you kind of Maggie Haveran stiff armed me when I asked if view and Malot, like we're kinda at all. And so I just wanted to follow up on that. Yeah, Malot and I are both flirting with something called generational change. and I think that's a good transition to what I wanted to talk about about the generational change. Israel, to me, I think about this, I'm watching this from the outside, like you're of the movement. Tell what me you think how close I am on this. I see the Israel question as kind of like a table stakes thing. s like it's like in poker, It's like the antte. If you were critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, then the progressive voters are gonna at least listen to you,ike the door is open to be listened to. From there though We've seen some success from left challenges and some failures. And like what I see as most of the examples of the failures, are just tabs O that establishment candidates that did not offer anything to voters. And like that's what you talk about Espiat. He's only offering people to Demican base. Diana Deette has been there forever. L what has she done? I Kake and Looper won last night, but againain, for an incumbent senator, pretty a pretty strong protest vote against him To me, a lot of this is like there's like this thing happening on the left, but there's also the establishment like not offering exciting candidates to voters. And I feel like it would have gone differently in Colorado if there was maybe a more dynamic candidate running against your girl a lot. Yeah, well, you know, Milad is is is the movements' girl You know, I I think two things can be true I do think Gaza is the sort of initial talking point. The other thing I'll say is like You know, Zoron O. the Moral race because he was able to build a coalition by offering this vision of New York City where There was a mayor who was putting every atom of his body into the job. And I think that that's probably the thing that's been most successful of him so far in office is the fact that even his biggest critics seeee him as this person who wakes up early workors all day, takes few breaks and goes to sleep late I think that that speaks to what a lot of people see in the DSA challengers are people who want to use every lever of power they can find. and then if they can't find find new ones So I definitely think that the kind of like old of flaccid candidates who aren't offering anything, I think that's a very good point Because the thing about the DSA challengers is due to the fact that they are movement powered often for better, sometimes maybe for more complicated. but because of the fact that they are energized like activists They come off as people. who are simply not going to rest and who are going to put in a lot of work. But the truth is like The Israel issue It really becomes a question of credibility for certain politicians because just real quick, back to the Lander and Goldman thing, the Israel situation dealt a critical blow to Goldman who was already vulnerable, even without the Israel stuff, because he was only able to get that seat by exploiting a split progressive field and a twenty twenty four where there wasn't a big challenger. And Brad Lander is somebody that every like twenty four percent of the vote or something. It was something like that It was like a huge field. Yeah. And I don't really know why there wasn't a serious challenger for him in twenty twenty four, but he's just not a good fit for the district. I mean, if you would run him in the greatest congressional district in the country, New York twelve, where there have been multiple Bulwark contributors running for Congress within the past, I mean, seven months But if you had run Dan Goldman in New York twelve, Dan Goldman would have won ninety nine percent of the vote. you know, even with people like Michael Lasher and Alex Borez who have good systems of support on the west side and the east side in general. Like Goldman is a perfect fit for New York twelve. He's not the right fit for New York ten. and that's with or without the question of Israel and Palestine. But it was a serious issue for him The the broader Israel topic because ultimately The issue of that was I mean, Ocham's raazor what motivated him not to endorse Marim Mum Dani. and him not endorsing Maram Mam Dani really, really bit him in the ass. And it's also true that Brad Lander is an extremely familiar face in Brooklyn. He's been an elected official. in the area for a very long time. It's not like Brad Lanner is this guy who came out of nowhere the way that certain DSA challengers. I mean, Land is not DSA. he's part of Zoron's Cadre, so people talk about him like he's DSA. he's not DSA If you called him DSA to a member of the DSA, I think they would kill you. But you know, so that's That was one issue, but the reason that I bring this up is Dan Goldman is very clearly ideologically, possibly religiously, I don't know, but ideologically a Zionist. So letting this Israel issue cause that problem for him makes a lot of sense because evenven his biggest haters don't doubt, that's what he believes. That's something he believes it. So I don't agree with him on that ideology, but I don't call into question the fact that it's what he considers to be the best thing Es Biot is a different story because I have no reason to believe that Es Biot is religiously or personally tied to the Zionist movement Right. Politicians like him and certain people around the country you see who are kind of inexplicably just so dedicated to the Israel thing. and there's just certain politicians who are just extra pro Israel. like there's Where in the inverse in the inverse. I think that there are a couple ps who are concerningly extra. A million percent. That's basically what I'm saying is, I think there's aunch of politicians who Back in the days where Israel was just very simply surface level looked at as just like our democratic ally and our friend in the Middle East and they deal with a lot of problems and we have to go out and support them. They started, you know getting money from the pro Israel lobby, they started meeting with differentnt people who were making very good arguments for the partnership between America and Israel. And I think a lot of politicians just got so used to it that they didn't want to even slightly rhetorically bend and they didn't want to abandon A pCerotic. Think about it. like in New York's twelfth district, Alex Borz and Michael Lasher. were running either where Naddler was on Israel, Palestine or a step to the right on Israel, Palestine. They are fundamentally pro Israel candidates. Now they're more critical of Israel than somebody like Richie Torres And they you support conditioning certain types of military aids. sureure. But generally speaking, they're fundamentally pro Israel and they had all of the support, both of them from different pro Israel groups. But again Both of them, and I think that this is really important Both of them rejected a relationship with APC becausecause APx's brand has become so toxic that even pro Israal candidates are saying Guys, I got you, but please, so I don't lose my election Don't give me money, even under those kind of like Just just just for the to get our facts right I'm really good. Daniel Goldman in twenty twenty two one with twenty six percent of the vote in a huge primary. A guya thereare Jones finished third and that one eighteen percent. Here's the thing that people have concerns about this. I mean there there are a million of them, but I think it was most visibly parent like how some folks feel like maybe things are getting a little out of hand when it comes to the anti Israel anti Zionist movement with what happened to Scott Wiener, aforementioned in California. I want to play this video for you of Scott Weiener being dequeerered By some people, looks like kind of in mission in San Francisco Scott, I want to support someone who's so positive on trans rights, but you're a piece of shit. yaza. How could you do that? How could you betray queers? How could you oppress people? You stop queer The moment you started supporting Israel, you piece of shit Okay. Yeah. so if you missed out at the end, you stopped being queer of the moment you supported Israel, you piece of shit. A couple thoughts from me and I'm interesting your take. Number one Sott Weino looks amazing, fifty six years old, unbelievable It's just a testament to what being gay can do for you Amen, and moisturizing. Thankks to our friends at One skin. So that's one. Number two, like you don't, just as a general manner Setting aside the Israel part for a second. you don't get to dequeer somebody because you don't like their position on a foreign policy issue. That's just not how things work. We've learned subsequently that one of the guys yelling at him isn' even isn't even really gay. He sounds like he's a straight guy that likes to do kinky sex stuff And okay. And like that's fine. You know, we keep adding letters to the LGBTQIA plus community to us. and that's okay, I guess, but like Technically speaking If you're just a straight guy that has weird kinks and likes anime, you're really on the edge of the coalition. And so you really shouldn't probably be telling people, you know who are actually gay, who had friends that died of AIS that they aren't welcome anymore. So that's just that's just a quick aside by me. But you see why people get worried about this. Like this feels like this is the movement getting out of hand. I mean, Scott Weiener is like a progressive. Obviously prog has pretty left views on Israel. They need to to monitor yourself a little bit, do some self policing on what's happening. I think we should abolish the self police But u You know, there's a couple of things. Obviously, I'm very upset about seeing that. It's a very unfortunate circumstance to see, especially given that this, you know, this was something that was supposed to be in support of the trans community And that's, you know, there's a time and place to do certain things. two things I want to bring up. Number one, he's moved on the issue. And there's a little bit of the old line Yeah, this like take yes for an answer kind of line. likeike this is the thing about Scott Weiiner. Like Scott Wiiner is coming around to the position that activists been asking for and now you're like, to like do homophobic slurs and shout them down on the street and menace them. And it's like, okay, guys. that's not really that's not really kind of how you win friends and influence people, you know So I can't spepeak to the individuals who were involved in that birddog. I don't know anything about them as human beings U But what I can say is like There's a lot of people in the larger anti Zionist movement who talk a lot more about how much they hate Israel? than about supporting the people who are currently being killed by Israel. You know When I talk to other Jewish anti Zionists There's a lot of talk about their own Judaism And there's a lot of talk about Israel and the greater Zionist apparatus. And a lot of them, I'm like, hey the human beings who are losing their lives right now, like what about the people? I don't think the people who are like bird dogging Sotwin or who literally calls it a genocide I don't think they're thinking right now like how is this going to improve the material conditions of the actual human beings on the ground? I think it's a lot more about anger towards Scott than it is sympathy towards people on the ground Last thing, like just I want to hear more Like kind of putting aside like been talking about and just like thinking more on the campaign you know, focus and moving ahead to November. as mentioned, you've been you know, with Adual campaigning and Platinner. And like there is this energy that is happening there in those campaigns. and you know, that I think and there's some'cepting from folks that might not fit that same portfolio or that might not fit that same rather you know, ideological frame or faction, if you like a Tel Ricor or whatever. like Democrats are trying to figure out like how to do two things, right? Like how do you channel the energy? And like also how do you win? right? And you know, if you got Platner right now, like there's Polt has him down three to Collins. And so like Platner figured out the energy part for the primary. Now now he's got to figure out the win part And like having been on the ground, I'm just kind of wondering kind of how you assess how those guys are trying to do that. I would say the first important thing to recognize is just like DC and New York's relationship with these races and Twitter's relationship with these races You have to understand that Every state is its own thing And we look a lot the media's relationship with certain candidates. And I think that there's a lack of understanding of some of the more state specific elements. So for example, when I went to Maine, you buried the lead a little bit. I was in Maine the day after the newest New York Times story drop And because of an insurance issue, I did not have my anxiety medication So I was with Grham Platner the day after the New York Times story Basically feral. I mean, I was having a hard time sleepy. It was really tough. The energy on the ground If you were there and I was with Hundreds of Mers that day interacting with the people who are at these events. You wouldn't have had any idea that there was just a scandal likeike everybody was just in a very positive mindset and that was interesting to me because I thought I was going to go there and there was just going to be utter chaos, but There's this guy who said to me like, you know, there's the six degrees of separation in Maine. there's one or two degrees of separation, you either know the candidate or you know someone who knows them All of these things that have come out about Gram. are things that everyone I know has known for years So that was an interesting situation for me. The abbdul situation is very different. I mean, I think the interesting case in that race is sort of the face plant that the McMurrow campaign saw, but just in general in Maine It really reminded me that the only things I truly knew about Maine were fish and Stephen Kay. Other than that, I mean, they they have I think fish is Vermont actually. so I don't know that you knew anything. I know, I know, but my dad has a t shirt that's a guy saying fish, Maine. Yeah. So that's what I associate with it. Yeah you know, and then in In Michigan, the interesting thing about Abdul's campaign to me is that I think it was a lot more combative in the beginning in terms of messaging. And there's been this crescendo of just kind of positivity and sort of this aspirational quality that they're going for and I am interested sort of in How organic that was, etcetera And lately, there's been a lot of positivity and a lot of sort of this aspirational message And it was fun. Both Graham and Abdul said to me like, oh man, I hoped you were going to win. And I was like, well Technically undefeated. Yeah, you quit. I feel like Abdul is actually doing this better than Graham at this point. so TBD, but like having lived through this on the tea partarty side, it's like, You know, sometimes that combative part, that factional fighting part is what motivates people at the beginning and it's so hard to deprogram themselves. and it's like time to program. forward, like channeling the energy of the base and then using it towards Susan Collins rather than the Oligarchy and neoiberals. Anyway, two week continued, Cameron Thank you for coming to see me in New Orleans, by the way. You got a guys poe boy You know, I felt like we gave you the whole experience, you know I mean, if I lived in New Orleans I would need to really restructure my exercise routine because the flavor The flavor in that city is just unbelievable like L the food was just so great. Even the stuff we went to that was sort of just like this mid thing we were doing just because it was convenient with timing I was it was so good and we had a was it was it? it was popeyes, right? Oh, we had some popeyes I mean, that's not, I mean Popeyz is based in Louisiana. You can get Popeyes in New York though, but we took you some other places, but it was nice having you here Come see me again soon And we're going to keep using you as the correspondent for all things DSA bisexuality It looks maxing. DS Say, am I right DSA. That's Cameron Casky. Thank you so much. What a show. I don't know if anybody noticed But u You know, if you're getting this podcast right now and you're hearing it You just got to think Jason Brown Katie Cooper and Kat Lis and Any Sipper because Foth guests are New York City