Military Professionalism and Personal Courage

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. I'm going to be honest with you. I am online way more than I probably should be. And between me and everyone else at my house, we've got a zillion screens going on at any given moment. So when my internet slows down, it is a full crisis. That's why having fast, reliable internet that can keep up really matters and why you need optimum famously fast fiber Innet Optimum fiber blows flaky five G out of the water and keeps it cool with the fastest and most reliable speeds that don't slow when things heat up. And right now, they have the deal of the summer, just thirty dollars a month for five years. So don't wait, call eight eight eight for optimum. Visit optimum dot com or stop by your local optimum store today Famously fast fiber for thirty dollars a month for five years. You can't beat it Terms apply see optimum dot com for details. PNC Bank brings you the call of the wild Money moves. S That's the sound of a multile level marketing pitch. This is life changing you guys. Sounds like she wants you to buy lots of essential oils. They are so essential. And then have all your friends buy essential oils. Are you more of a geranium or lavender fan? Don't look her in the eyes.. Guard against Wild Money Mves with PNC Bank Brilliantly boring since eighteen sixty five. Hey everybody. We got a double header for you today And it's going to be a doozy. I've been trying to get Piers Morgan have the tables turned on them for a while now. and and so we booked this date Um, You know, not claiming that the Grand Platinner campaign is going to blow up the night before And so I didn't kind of want to waste time with him on that. So if you want Platinner takes, we've got plenty options for you. Me and Sarah overver on the Buller takes feed did almost an hour on Platinner alone the next level, which comes out on Tuesday nights. Sam is in for JVL, we're all still and our love to JV and his family, but we'll be discussing Platinum M there. We'll also be discussing Conll. So M IA There'll be some discussion of that as well. So if you're looking for Platinum McConnell takes TNL or head over to the Bllwg takes feed On this show, it's a double header We get into serious business about military affairs in the world with Mark Hurtling in segment two So make sure to stick around for that But up first, it's Pierers Morgan All right, here's the host of Pers Morgan Uncensored on YouTube. It's Piers Morgan himself. The tables are turned. Welcome to the show. I'm a bit apprehensive about this because I suddenly realize you've never interviewed me. And I've had you on my show many times. Thank you. But this is like the real puncher tongue gamekeeper as we would say in England. I love that. I love that you're apprehensive. Well I'm gonna to start with a compliment. We're gonna start, you know, we're going to butter you up at the beginning because we may have some disagreements to get to I've been trying to have you on since your interview with Russell Brandant. It was a real moment of professional jealousy for me. for this reason. For people who didn't watch it, you are asking him about what Bible verse he was referencing. and let's play what happens Thank you for asking Thank you It was this from Isiah And you're write Brad, it'd say, you know, be chilled Sometimes I lose the chill man. I don't like that do they in the old gallery, but remember you just said it's a hired spot This is from Isaiah The verse that I was looking at that day was notot there's a action I can't actually find the verse that I had that day. That goes on for over a hundred seconds, Piers. How did you do that? What was going through your head? How did you summon the will to just sit there and let him turn the pages For almost two minutes. Well, as you know, in our game, silence is normally the enemy, right? I mean everyone talks about dead air. and it can be just a few seconds. When I was a CNN, if you had three, four seconds of silence, it was something every would launch an investigation into. So obviously my team were in my ears saying, you may want to get in now, let's get in now, you know, because it was as it went on But I could just sense this was something quite magical, unfairly, which was that this Grifter, and I think we can safely say he's a Grifter, who had become a born again Christian seven months after all these allegations flew against him gone into court in England clutching this Bible, which had all these little notes attached to it and passages underlyine the s on. And so I asked him the obvious question, which was, well, know, which of the passages brought you most sucker at your difficult moment. And he said, Well, there's one in particular. Now, if you were a genuine born again Christian And you were really, as he claims to be, completely immersed now in daily life with your new relationship with God and the Bible and Christianity and so on You would probably remember the verse that you're talking about, which was the one that was most important to you in your hour of Darkness. But not only could he not remember it, he couldn't remember where the hell it was in the Bible. So as he continued to russele unintended I realized this was very illuminating because I think what it really showed And this was the view of most people who watched it. was that it's probably all a bit of a grift And he's not really reading the Bible every day and he's not really into this quite the way he would like us to think. Now, maybe I'm wrong. But that was certainly my feeling. And I think you get to that one right. And you know what, Tim, after four decades of being in the media, it was very unnerving to discover that actually the most powerful weapon I have in my toolbox was silence and that maybe I should just shut up more It's also a human nature to try to bail people out. Even if you realize it's a quasi adversarial interview, sometimes you just can't overcome. so. I was impressed. You also did the office look straight into the camera at one point. It was Those are ten out of ten. Not all your episodes are ten out of ten. so we got toa hand that out I had somebody come up to me Crawfish boil. You probably don't know about those. It's a Louisiana thing. You do bugs. I do know about the.. So I'm at a Bil, some guy comes up to me. He's like, Are you the guy in Pierers of Morgan? And I was like, yeah, that's only happened me one time And no offense to this, Piers, but I was like, why do you watch the show? What do you get out of it? And he says it's kind of like for me, Jerry Springer, but politics. I just kind of like watching the food fight And on the one hand, I understand that. On the other hand, I wonder if that gives you any I don't know, self doubt about the seriousness or the value of what's happening. Well, I think look, people like Joe Rogan and others have used that analogy of Jerry Springer and politics. First of all, I knew Jerry Springer very, very well. I loved Jerry Springer. I actually was on America's Got Talent with Jerry Spinger. I was a judge and he was the host. We lived in the same hotel, the Beverly Wilshire in L.A for years and we used to meet three times a week for dinner When I get compared to Jerry, I take that as an enormous compliment. Jerry Springer was a former mayor of Cincinnati. He was a news anchor for ten years, very serious news anchor and was one of the smartest people I've met in my life and made hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, his show wasn't for everyone. and I don't think my show is like the O Springer show, except in one sense which is Most people, I think, at the moment, get federed diet through their algorithm or their choice which is of either people on the left or people on the right and they're banging a drum which will continually hit the same beat And Trump's biggest disaster in the history of mankind, or Trump can do no wrong, extxtrapolate it out to all the other issues. I think that's a problem actually. And I think it's become an increasing problem in fermenting tribalism, quite toxic tribalism. In a way, we've gone back, we regressed two thousand years when tribes used to know exist on their own all shared the same views, all dressed the same, spoke the same as on. And then they slowly Soly went out and encountered other tribes and the only solution they found was to kill each other. And it's a little bit like that, I think on social media. I think I actually have a valuable place in the public space in this, which is I sit in the middle. I'm a genuine centrist. I've voted in the past for conservative and left wing candidates in the UK, for example, from Margaret Thatcher on the right to Tony Bear on the left. I always tend to gravitate towards a leader more than a party because I think a great leader can make a huge difference. and a terrible leader can have the opposite effect. I see as some of the centrist, I do love a good debate. I used to get thrown out of my local pub when I was a teenager for arguing with people too obnoxiously on a Friday night up to ten pints of scrumpies. So I do like to do a good noisy debate. Let me finish my point. So my point being but it's not just about noisy debates Anyone who watches us so regularly will know, we regularly do big one on one interviews with you know I went to Kiv and interviewed Zelensky. I've done Trump for several times. I've done Kanyye West several times. I do lots of one on one interviews with people. Russell Brown was a good example. two hours of Russell Brown. So it's not all about the noisy debates, but I do think the debates do one thing, which is really important, which is I bring people with normally with big loud, followings on big platforms and lots of followers and they rarely go at each other. And I think for the viewer, trying to work out where they sit Wh's not parked into a tribe necessarily, they at least get to weigh up both sides of an argument. I think that's a good thing Yeah, I guess it's not exactly like firing line with William F Buckley though. And someome of the people you're having on are like full of shit. you know full of shit, they might be, but they also have very big following. So I'll give an example. like someone like Andrew Tate, right has you millions and millions of followers and was clearly for a long time having a big influence over young men around the world And he's facing very serious charges now, but You know, if you go back two or three years, he was probably the most famous person on the planet after Trump. And I took a decision to interview him repeatedly And two things have happened in the process of those interviews. One, I went after him nobody else has, particularly about his brazen misogyny. Two, the number of people who watched the interviews came down from ten million down to under a million, showing his deteriorating popularity. And three, the number of young men who come up to me in the street asking about tape has massively dropped as well I think I've played a significant, genuinely, significant part in demolishing the bullshit around someone like Andrew Tape by platforming but going after him. So my position about platforming people is not that you shouldn't I think you should be a platform anyone you like. but if you just give them a free run You're just giving more fuel and oxygen to whatever bullshit theories they have. I take your view, if you challenge them properly, you're providing a good public service I agree with you on the platforming argument. We one hundred percent agree on that. I think it's worth challenging people. Sometimes modering your show, my critique is, particularly during this Trump era. I think it was a little bit different when Biden was in because there's plenty of legitimate things to criticize Biden about. But during the Trump era, Alkim on it'll be like, well Ice killed two people in the streets. That's segment one. And then it's like segment two, we have to find balance. So like let's talk about you know, some crazy liberal school district in San Francisco where they, you know, tried to take Abraham Lincoln's name off the school or something. And I How interesting that you would cite that as an example of something that's wrong as I would say toim, and you know, I love you, dearly. you're great when you come on my show and I love what you do here. But right, there's the problem You would only want that show to be all about Trump bashing and that's fine. That's what He's the president though. I'm just trying you're increasing like crazy like stupid thing. The other story can be just as interesting to a large constituent of my viewers. Why would I be so I mean, do should I park myself shouldhould I park myself into the Bllwalk camp? Should I become a little mini a little mini tanously Obviously it's interesting because you're feed them, you're feeding them sucker to use your words. You're giving them something to taking a. The liberals are crazy. Let's talk about this random person So. A lot of liberals are crazy. Well, sure. But a lot of conservatives are crazy. A lot of people are crazy. Humans are crazy. Yeah. I'm talking about trying to make a judgment call on like what is important and what is not And I feel like a lot of times like this idea that these woke excesses, you know, there's some movie, you know, the Odyssey has a black person in it. a lot of this stuff is stupid in the grand scheme of things compared to like life or death decisions that are happening in the White House. You you don't mind me saying, again, say disrespectfully, there's a little bit of pomosity to that statement. In other words, you have decided you know better than me what you think is important. And I would say that that is not necessarily true. A lot of the woke issues actually are things of legitimate mass concern. I'll give you an example, the ongoing fury around trans athletes and women's sports. I knew you were going to say this. Well because isn't as how many segments have you had on the show about women's sports many versus how important that is to people in society. I just think that there's But this is the act This is theance. I'm not saying don't talk about it. It's also like who cares? Yeah, but but this is the classic error that my liberal friends make. And by the way, I'm a recovering liberal. so I sitt in the kind of Bill Mark. I'm a liiberal immigrant. so we're going we're we're going crossw. But I would say that if you actually go out on the street and ask a thousand people what they've think about that. A they would care and B they think is complete nonsense. And what my liberal friends do, the terrible mistake you make, I'm afraid when you try to say nobody cares is you're missing the fact that they do care. And you know, it was people like Joe Biden when he hitched his mask to saying that it was fine for trans women compete in women's sport Aually Americans went this is nonsense, which is why he lost. My point is not that nobody cares. My point is that like in the grand scheme of things, you're covering a news show, having so many segments about like the fifth place performer in a women's swim match. It's like there are plenty of stupid things happening. Again, respectfully, who are you to tell me what my running orders should be Why should you say? I'm not telling you what your writing order should be. I'm just saying it speaks to the idea that I think that it's creating a fake balance. It's like, okay, well I're trying to create On one hand, Trump got us into a stupid war On the other hand, there, oh my goodness, there was a Lacrosse match that had a girl in it in West Virginia. You know, I used to be CNN for four years. I was on Good Morning Britain for five years And I can tell you, it's exactly the same those places, right? CNN has a mix of light and shade, serious and silly. Good morning, Britain, more so because it was a morning show. The idea that you should only feed people with a diet of what you have deemed is serious and important is one of the reasons mainstream media in particular have been collapsing in popularity because most people out there don't spend all day obsessing. We agree on this. You're kind ofalking criticism. You're walking past criticism because we agree on this. I don't be silly. It's fine. Yeah The thing is an excessive focus on random crazy liberal shit. I live in Louisiana. Let me tell you, there's plenty of cray random conservative shit happening in middle schools. but anyway, let's let's this is my show. So We should talk about Trump. Of course, but I can tell you, I've done a lot more, for example, a lot more on the Iran war than anything wke related in the last three, four months. And I've been incredibly critical of Trump from the start of it. So I know we'll come to Trump and about balance and so on, but no very few people have been out there as critical as I have been about Trump who perhaps people presume would normally slightly slout my way towards him because I know him. I totally agree. And I had Seger and Genti on the show maybe about a month ago, and I said the same thing to him. And it's one thing that's hard for me to do is I don't have Trump bullshitters on my show. And so I'm looking for people who are sympathetic to Trump, but are also honest about him and critiquing about him. And I appreciate that about your show. To that point Let's go back to some Trump thoughts that you've had around Thanksgiving After he was elected You wrote in the New York Post that he called you, and you think he's ready to be one of America's great presidents. You said that you've been struck by the realization that he's a changed man. Yeah. I'm wondering how that's looking now. Not great because he unfortunately has reverted to type But more worryingly, I think, for his legacy, he has begun to do things which he specifically campaigned onn the opposite. you know, not going into war in the Middle East, for example, you know, focusing on America first and getting inflation down and so on. whyy would you launch a global trade war? And why would you go to war with Iran if actually those campaign aims where your priority is the opposite. It's going to have the opposite effect, as we've seen. So I think it's unfortunate. you know, I did think that Trump markarked two partarticularly after he survived several assassination attempts. I felt talking to him, he was a bit of a change character. But you know, there's also the reality check, he's just turned eighty. There aren't many people who turn eighty who suddenly became become different people. He said some things which have been great successes And he's had other things that have been big failures. He's still not even quite halfway. how long's he got till the next election like two and a half years. So he's still you know, he's not even halfway through his second term. He's got time to pivot and change courses. The concern I would have if I was advising Trump is that I think it's looking more likely than not. he might lose control of the House and the Senate in the midterms. And if that happens, he'll become a lame duck, which will be for him about as bad as life gets. This is a frustrating thing though for some of us, you know, that get accused of having TDS saying that we only want to talk about Trump is it's like, You've known Trump for so long. I knew to've known Trump for longer than I have. I had his number the first second I saw him talk about politics. He is the most obvious person in history. He is not at all subtle He's not changed at all actually since the nineteen eighties. He's been the same exact mayaybe he's a little bit less of a Womanhound now. I don't know why. I don't know. mayaybe it's not working as well or whatever has different interests. besides that, like he hasn't changed at all Like he's the same. And so how did he run for president three times and have smart people like you get tricked by him again into thinking that he could be better or different. He's Trump. He's Trump. Well, because actually he can be quite a murure in that sense. I mean, certainly the conversation had with him a week after he got shot, he was definitely sounding so unlike that Donald Trump I knew. He actually sounded quite vulnerable in that conversation. I was quite startled. And I really did believe that he was second time round He would do things differently, but would be more mindful of his legacy having been given a second chance. I an interesting question I'd throw back at you, Tim is do you think that the way that you guys on the left went after Trump in that first term and during his four years in the wilderness, A lot of it legitimate, a lot of it bullshit. But do you think the intensity of the rage against Trump, the TDS, if you like actually contributed to him being reelected because I do. So I felt at the time it was self defeating. I felt the fact that so many thember left thought it was quite normal to call Trump the new Hitler and call people to support him Nazis and so on was utterly self defeating. And before you say it, I know JD Vance called him a Nazi. Yes, that was wrong too. But the point I would make is if actually all you had done as a collective body on the left to picked Trump off about stuff that he got wrong focused on policy rather rhetoric, I think you would have been more successful. and I don't think you would have won second time r. Here's the problem with that Per' fair. I mean obviously it's irfutable point because he got back in. So sure. obbviously whatever we did was not successful. Right. But my counterpoint to that is, okay, what do you want me to do? be a liar, shine his turds, pretend like he's something that he's not. look, if the honest truth is everybody who goes in to work for Trump and then has a falling out with him and leaves sounds like me in the end. I mean John Kelly, you know, thought he's a fascist, Maddas, Saramuch. you go down the list. They all sound like me because I'm saying the truth about him And so like, what else am I supposed to do? this idea that, oh, I'm supposed to I'm supposed to like cand it to him from time to time. It's like, oh, he did a good job. Let me do a test Tell me one good thing Trump has done I love that you're trying to take the host seat back for me again. That's good. It's a skilled move It's fruit from a rotted tree is the answer to the question. Well give me, let me here are the two things that people say would say. would What would you say to people? What would you say? Abraham Accords is something that people say. What turned out to be a shit sandwich? No, I think it's turn I think everything has turned out to a shit sandwich. I think everything think he's done that's been good Nothing I think that it's a disaster. So right there I'm afraid is a classic example of a clear symptom of Tump d arrangements.. Well what do you think he's done that's good? Obviously shutting the southern border to stop him Let's debate that. But I think that's totally wrong. America iss a free country. You're an immigrant. honestly, I'm not sure if you're so happy about his border policies, why you think that your show should be allowed to be played on YouTube in this country? Because I applied like legal people do. We're saying app to I applied to be a legal worker in the United States. I applied for a visa. So did the Haitians The Hians that have TPS, they did the same thing. We're sending them back. Why don't we should send you back too? I'm here leillgally when I work in America. So we' Hai that got temporary protected status. Now we're sending them all back. Why do you think Id disagree with you? Well, becausecauseuse you just said that his immigration policy was the thing that you think could stopping millions of people coming over the southern border illegally without going through any process was wrong. It happened under Biden to catastrophic levels. I agree with that. I think Trump closing down the southern border to that extraordinary tidal wave of illegal immigrants. It was already solved before it came in. It wasn't already solved. Yes it was. Why can't you just give him credit for doing that? Because I'll tell you why. It's a fair critque of Biden. I agree with your critique of Biden The Biden policy got out of hand Much too late. This is a political criticism of him Biden went to the Congress and tried to come up with a solution. Trump scuttled that solution, and then he did it via executive order. And the border crossings at the end of twenty twenty four around election time were nothing problematic. We are a free country. The idea that right now it's preferable. to have negative immigration in this country, is what we have right now, more people are leaving than are coming in That is horrible for our economy. It's outside of the American tradition. The only people we're letting in are white South Africans. It's fucking crazy. It's un American and it's wrong. His policy is wrong. It's also un American, especially for those who have come into the country legally and done it properly, it's also un American to just allow millions of people to come in illegally over an open border. E No As Ronald Reagan said so clearly, without a border, you're not a country. Great. So should policies. I like the Reagan and Obama border policies, not the Trump border policies. So no, do you have any other ones that you think he's done well? Well, okay. You mentioned Obama is a glimmering shining light of immigration policies. Okay. let me do my favorite question to my liberal friends How many people did Obama deport in eight years? Obamaort deported a lot. How many? How many I don't this is not I'm not doing the Tucker Crosss a Ted Cruise thing. it was millions. It was millions. It was a lot. I guess. Yeah, it was millions. It was a lot It was three million. Yeah. Okaykay. Now, the significance of that is that made him pro ra to this day By far, the biggest importer of people one of the America pe of theal history., but youited him as you cited him as an immigrationing. What is the thing you said you want, Piers? The numbers were so great because at the border they came in and got turned around and that counts as one What Trump is doing is not only shutting down the border, but also menacing people in cities in the interior of the country. Well I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. Okay that's what' doing. That's the difference. Unless I misheard you, you just praised Obama for turning people around at the border.. But you criticizeed Trump and said sh down the border completely. Yeah. Because we're a country of free people. you should let everyone in. So which one is it? Does it depend who the president is I didn't say we should let everybody in I said that right if you just look at it and hold, you're talking about the number of people Obama deported. Sure. We also were letting people into the country as we should during the reagan, this was bipartisan during Reagan. done this Obama. That's great. We should have an immigration process. And by the way, Obama tried to go to the Republicans back then and tried to cut a deal where we let dreamers stay in the country. and the Republican hardliners that turned into Trump were the ones that stopped comprehensive immigration reform. It was my people, the moderate Republicans that tried to work with, the Democrats to have a reasonable immigration policy that got scuttled time and again by these nativists that don't want anybody in the country. And so my question back to you is, if you look at this from the biggest picture, right? This movement towards nativism that you had in your country and we had in ours that started with Brexit and then resulted in Trump We are now ten plus years into that over ten years, over a decade in If you look back on that and you said, hey, we could go back to twenty thirteen and do this over again and not do that. you wouldould you take that deal Well, it's more complicated because right in the middle of that, you have a four year tenure by Biden. which particularly in relation to immigration was a complete disaster. Okay No, no, I'm not talking about just immigration. I just mean as a project, as a political project, Brexit and Trump are related. We agree on that, right? Like that's this kind of nativist sovereignty, sovereignty, excuse me Um you know, idea on the right, likeike this nativist right. But Brexit has been a disaster and Trump's been a disaster, right? They both have failed. Both projects have failed, right? Well, the Trump project is ongoing. Let's judge it at the end of the second term. That what I would say. How's the trajectory? Well, I think it's better to judge presidents at the end of a term. right? Let's see what he does done in the last two and a half years. I suspect he'll be polaxed by what happens in the mid ttermss. What about Brexit Brexit, my position on that is I voted to remain in the European Union. I didn't think Brexit was a good idea. I didn't trust the people selling it, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage. I thought there a snake oil salesman. And ten years later since that referendum took place, there's been no sign to me of it being anything other than a failure. So my argument to the new incoming Prime Minister Andy Berner. the new Laborour Prime Minister would take his position in a couple of weeks is If you were to have another referendum, there's nothing stopping you. I reckon you would have a seventy percent landslide vote by the British people to go back into the European. Why can't you see the same clarity with our failed experiment with nativism? Because I'm not American, so it's your business, not mine. Secondly, if I did think that, it makes zero difference to the fact Trump will remain president as long as he staysays alive in the next two and a half years. If you had a referendum pect to your presidential system. fine, you don't. You elect a president for four years, and I think presidentents should be judged at the end of four years With the World Cup happening this month, I keep coming back to one thing. Every athlete out there has a whole team tracking everything regarding their health Biomarkers, recovery sleep whether or not you kick the ball or the grass goalender, the USA when the ball heads your way. You don't have to play for a national team though to deserve that kind of care. I'm not playing in the World Cup. I'm just going to ladies weights class. but I still want health insights to keep my body working right. Elite athletes don't guess about their health. They measure it and life demands you at your peak too whether that's your hit class. kids dancing at music festivals. Go for long walks the New Orleans seat Same attention pros give their body is finally something the rest of us can have too So I'm using function one hundred and sixty lab tests a year, the kind of full body picture pro athletes pay a fortune for. notot guessing, just knowing where you stand so you can show up at your best, check your health the way I do. function provides one hundred and sixty plus lab tests for just a buck a day. and member pricing on advanced imaging. join at functionhealth d. com slash the Bulllwark and use code the Bulwark twenty five for a twenty five dollars credit So here's my issue though. You said that, you know, you vote for some conservative president or some prime ministers for some liberal in the UK. I used to be a conservative. Part of what attracted me into conservatism was this like kind of small C consonservative notion that came from you guys, was Birkian.'s notion that I When you make a big change, you don't know what the unintended consequences should be. You should make gradual change. You should be prudent, you know That is in the spirit of Thatcher and the spirit of Blair. What happened with Brexit and Trump wasn't conservative. It was an arson. It was like, we're going to blow up this system and try to build a new system in our image it's just obviously not working in either case. Well, but I would say in relation to Thatcher and Blair, they both had moments where they blew up too. I mean, Thatcher notoriously over the poll tax, which was one of the most divisive and hated taxation systems that ever came into the country. That's enamental change. hang on. And then Tony Blair egally invaded Iraq, H legacy and was one of the biggest foreign policy disasters life of my lifetime. And I opped that very loudly it us of a daily mirror at the time. Even the people I voted for had moments where they blew up. leadeaders blow up, they do dumb things, right? The question becomes what hes blow up, blow up, blow up, blow up. It's's tear things down, it's doge That's we're going to end USAID. it's all impulsive. It's not conservative. It's not a way to run a companyition. consonservative. I agree with you. I agree. It's not conservative. And a lot of the things that you don't like about stuff he's done, I would agree with. I just to avoid the charge of TBS, you have to find it in your soul to find some things he's done, which are correct. No, some things are just rotten though S things are some things are just rotten. L the project is rotten. So it's kind of like even if there is something like an element of the project that had a good outcome. It's part of a rotten project. I blame the left entirely becausecause if you believe that Trump has been a dismal failure and he's a rotten apple and all the rest of it, well fine, you had an opportunity to force out your president before it was too late when he was obviously completely gagar. No one on the left wanted to say what was happening in front of their eyes. And then he left it so late that Carmla Harris got coronated was clearly totally unsuited to take on Trump and got the beating that I think she and the party deserved. And my question for you guys now is it still remains the big theme on the left is Trump bashing and reacting to every single thing he does, most of which, by the way, he does deliberately to wind you all the I've been there when he's done it. What do you about What you as the president You need to find a new Clinton, a new Obama, new Bill Clinton, a new Obama, somebody center left who can galvanize a genuine constituent of Americans to say, I prefer that way. H what I have with Trump. Here's. Okaykay, fine. I agree. But it's offering a clear eyed critique of the Democrats that I agreed with while polishing Trump's turds I'm not polishing Trump'sds. Part of them. No Tr did not pol. Yes, you did. Yes you were. you said that he was a changed man that he could be one of America's great presidency. obviously he was not going to be one of America's great presidents. You asked me whether that still stood. I said no I met before the election. You're saying it's the Democrats fault that he's in. I'm saying well it's partly the fault of the people like you who are polishing his turns during the campaign and making him seem better than he is. I didn't polish his turns in the campaign. G go back and read what I said. I just felt he would be different second time round. and unfortunately to date, I don't think he has been, he's played to his worst sensibilities rather than his best. Now sh I'm right again though So I've keep keeping right about him. How does that work? How do I have derrangement syndrome, but also keep seeing him more clearly than you? Well, you might be, but your failure to accept he does anything right is a terrible indication of your chronic teet. Do you have a second thing that he's done right besides the border Um, I would say that his Well, you can let me finish I would say the way he got the remaining hostages out of Gaza For Israel was a major achievement in Gaza the Israel relationship's going well? You think that's doing great? I think that part of it is going terribly. But if you ask me, was it good the president of the United States managed to get those hostages out, I'd say yes.. And you should give him credit for that. And if you can't give him credit for that, you have TDS. Well sure, it's good that the hostages are out, but that doesn't mean his Israel policy is good Again, again, you can have good outcomes underneath bad policies. That's the whole point underneath, you know, a corrupt system His relationship with BB is totally corrupt. and it it's been a disaster. I think you agree with that. I've heard you talk about it Yeah, look, I think that Trump deserves credit for getting the hostages out, but I think that the decision to go into war in Iran with Israel after Trump was persuaded by Benjamin Netanyahu, it would be a good idea has turned out to be a terrible decision. I said that at the start. I believe it today. I think it's got real potential. Unfortunately for Trump to become his legacy. and Id wish he'd never done it and across the Middle East, like He just has these corrupt relationships. We don't know if it's financial with BB. Obviously, BB was influencing him. We have Qutter's playing now. His son in law's in business with the Saudis I like, how can you prosecute a war judiciously when you're getting paid off by everybody in the region. Well, I think the United States has to do business with countries and states in the Middle East. the Trum family doesn't though, the Trump family doesn't have to do business. Well. Well, let's wait and see whether what they're doing is corrupt or not. There will obviously be investigations into this as they were into the Biden family Wh seems to be able to This is nothing like the Biden family. Well, you don't think it is. Of course you does I know this the scale and the UAE crypto deal is like five hundred billion dollars. Was Hunter negotiating for the country like Jared Kushner is? You said it was corrupt. Let's wait and see. if anyone ever establishes it was actual corruption. What is more needs be established. Jared Kushner is not a member of our government. He's negotiating As part of this Iran war, while taking money from the Saudi government. That's all established Well, I would like to see these things properly investigated, which I'm sure they will be, particularly if Trump loses the midterms. thenen you're going to see all sorts of stuff going on in terms of legal actions and possible impeachments and so on. We know that. But I would also stress to you, you know how much time did you devote? Maybe you did, and I missed it. Did you devote a lot of time to going after the Biden family for the obvious corruption of Hunter Biden having your job at an energy company in Ukraine without any experience? Or did you just conveniently overlook that to You don't have a gancha with me on that one, Pierers. You can get me on some things, but the chararisma thing I think was bullshit, but Hunter kind of hates me now. and on every podcast he goes on, he brings it up. I'm in his head for some reason. Anyway, I've taken too much of your time. Well hopefully we can continue this. It's not scary to go on the Bullark podcast. I love thell. I Listen, I'm a big fan of yours. That's why I love having on my show Thank you, sir. you've got Norway. The colonizize are coming at you again like ten sixty six. So are you scared of Holland? Well, I'm actually scared of Holland. These a massive Viking but also their captain is Martin Odegard, who is also captain of my subside arsenal. U So I'm worried He' juston the Premier League. So yeah, they're good, but you know what? I've got a feeling that it's going to be serendipity here where England win the World Cup in the United States rightight after you've all been celebrating two hundred and fifty years of your independence from my great country. And if that happens, I want two things to happen as a consequence. One, you get compelled by law to rename soccer football. and secondly, you are compelled to bring back the British monarchy. and I'm happy to serve as your first king since George III I think the French will probably come to our aid once again and prevent that from happening. That's Piers Morgan. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man. I appreciate it Cers to all the best For some sober, serious military talk Stick around for segment two with Mark Hurtling Y'all, I've got a busy schedule. We're turning out content. We're also parenting. We're trying to have a life. We're trying to grow a little media company here So I'm always looking for ways to multitask and save time I'll listen to another pod to prep for a guest while I'm on the way to get coffee or cooking dinner We're doing subscription and delivery services so we don't have to go shopping. I don't iron Tath thing We all have our own time saving hacks everyday life, But if you're a business owner, you can save time hiring with zip reccriter, Zip Reruiter is a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first you save time by meeting the right people faster. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecuiter. com slashowl where Zipruiters powerful matching technology finds qualified candidates quickly. candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job Save time and meet great candidates sooner with Zier Reruiter. four out of five employers who post on Zier recriter get a quality candidate within the first day. tryry it for free at zipp reccruiter. com slash Bulwark that ziprecruiter d. com slash bllwork meet your match on Zippp Recrit All right, and we're back. He's a writer on military affairs for the Bulwark. Boy, are we lucky to have him? a retired US. Army Lieutenant general. He served his commander during the surge in Iraq. He's also a commanding genereneral of the U.S Army Europe. H latest book is If I don't Return a Father's Wartime journal. It's of course Mark Hurling. How you doing sir? welcome back Tim, it is good to be with you. Thanks for having me on this morning. Lots going on for sure. A ton going on. As we are taping this ongoing press conference, the NATO meeting in Turkey with our president and Erdogwan U among the things he said this morning I was very disappointed with NATO, goards to Iran Frankly, if it weren't held in Turkey Where my friend happens to be a very strong leader, a very strong person, it's possible that I wouldn't have attended So he's only going to the NATO meeting in the autocratic country, apparently. He also went off again on Greenland talking about how it's surrounded by Chinese and Russian ships Greenland should be controlled by the U.S., not by Denmark. he says We should remove all soldiers out of Europe. We're going to get to your article on that in a second some level, this is a little bit of groundhog day, same as it ever was, but I guess with the new element of kind of the first gathering since the Iran warar. Yeah, I was listening to part of the press conference with Erder One this morning, Tim. It was a Smorgas board of contradictions of what he's posted recently That in combination with continued insults of the insults of the NATO alliances why he's mad at everybody and why He's not mad at P Mis Malonia anymore. You know, the numbers throwing out in terms of battlefield deaths in Ukraine, which seem to just emanate from off the top of his head and have nothing to do with reality in terms of casualties in that country, even though the war continues. You don't know what to make of it when you see someone like that offering input to members of not just the National Press Corps, but the international press Corps from Europe h in Anchara. And baffling and I'm sure that's what the NATO members and the presidents who are there, the presidents and the prime ministers feel about how to handle this president who doesn't have a real good feel for what the NATO Alliance is all about. Yeah, I mean, spitballling on removing troops live at a press conference. You wrote about this this week about how You know, withdrawing troops for Europe is something that Higset hass been pushing. You talked about how that's not a strategy. I'm just a regular American here, right? I didn't serve in the military. I'm not the command post experts that you got out I not Ben Parker pouring over war plans and the different types of ships and planes. So I don't know, you could sell me on the idea that there's a strategic purpose. you know kind of downsizing what we have in Europe. Maybe that's wrong. I don't know even if that was the right approach, it doesn't seem like the way to go about that is like threatening to remove all of our soldiers out of Europe because they won't give us green lland. And that is what Donald Trump did this morning at a press conference or that they won't support us in a war that was of his making and which he didn't notify them about beforehand It's also You know, NATO, you could call a defense alliance, a security alliance. It's not a call on us whenever you need us to help you with your wars of choice That's what's challenging about that. That's not what Article four and Article five are meant to commit nations to And rightfully, I mean, in my view, I'm American. okay? I got it national security issues are our national security issues, but the other thirty one countries that are part of the alliance and the other fifteen or so that are part of Europe are not just going to chime in and support us when we need them And when we ask them, you know, it's interesting. the UK has been one of the The. the nations that has incurred President Trump's wrath. U and in every case before When they were informed of what the United States was going to do and in some cases, which was contrary to their national security, they would join us. And they did so as part of an alliance that's dated back a couple of hundred years This time, Starmer said no. and my in my view, rightfully so When you're not told what the war is about, when you're going into it with Israel and you don't really have an end state when it seems The strategy is not calculated very well and you don't have a state at end state, you're not going to get involved. You should be smarter Let's just talk about that kind of how our presence should look in Europe and how this relationship should look. And you, as mentioned We're commommanding genereral of our U.S Army in Europe. So obviously you've worked with these other countries, these other militaries as counterparties and allies over the years. Is there anything to the underlying point that maybe you know we are putting too many of our own resources and men and women into Europe and that Europe should be doing more of that? L if you take away kind of the ham handed manner in which Hagseth and Trump have been arguing for it Is there a point to that or do you actually disagree with the underlying premise? I think there's certainly a point to getting many of the NATO Alliance members to pony up a little bit more But that's been happening since twenty eleven when Secretary Gates went to the NATO ministerial and said, you guys are not paying your way. And it's not a check that's written to a big bank somewhere. It's, hey, your security depends on what you do in your budget for your own military forces and some of you are lacking And in twenty eleven, Gates proposed a two percent of GDP figure. Now that was a very round and generous number Trump is looking primarily now at just the per and it has made it almost a fixation. where instead of Understanding what the thirty two members do his fixation on percentages has distorted the discussion of what the Alliance is and how NATO generates collective strength and how the members do different things together to the audience is listening to this, not all militaries in Europe will build tank brigades or know, artillery units or huge naval aircraft carriers or submarines Each one of them have a different culture, a different fiscal constraint They have other things on their play from a national security perspective and they do things different. Some are landlocked, you know, Some are landlocked Some recall like Estonia, I mean, I always use the case of Estonia, a small country with less than two million people. Are they going to give up five percent of their GDP, which is pretty precious to them For this, no, what they do instead is say, hey, we will offer you because we have experience and some pretty good capabilities, cyber defense So the NATO Cyber Defense Center of Excellence is in Estonia Uh Poland has said back in two thousand four that they wanted to build the strongest military in Europe to prevent further invasions like they've experienced multiple times So for the last couple of decades, they've been pouring a lot of money in it They are now at four point two percent of their GDP highest in NATO. So whenever we hear President Trump saying, everybody's now at five percent, that's not even close to being true Poland is the biggest one four point two, but that's been a two decades long plan And by the way, as long as we're talking about that The United States doesn't hit five percent of GDP in our defense spending If we did, we would have to spend a half a trillion dollars more per year than what we're spending right now And it all wouldn't go to NATO because we are a worldwide force So these are the kind of cards that Trump is throwing out there. about the NATO alliance and basing it all instead of understanding of what contributions are made by the various countries and how they see national security He's suggesting all of them should be this high level of price and also do all the things the same And I think hakes us in the same boat too, by the way. Yeah Trump seems to think NATO is kind of like one of his country clubs. You know, you got to pay dues If you're not paying dues, you don't get to use the greens You know, at certain times of day. And it's a little bit of a different deal. You mentioned Poland, part of the reason why Poland especially the most because they're threats to the highest being right on the border with Russia. There's some reporting mented to bill on yesterday's show coming out of Poland somebody within our Intel service has been communicating to Poland that they think it's possible that Russia might try a limited incursion into Poland to basasically test NATO and see if it could cause NATO to crack. I'm wondering if you have any kind of thoughts on that Yeah, I think that first of all would be much like their invasion of Ukraine Even though Ukraine was kind of at the time, not a very capable large force, they were getting there with some of the transformation efforts they had made over the previous five years But in twenty fourteen, Ukraine was not ready for any kind of attack. in twenty twenty two They were partly ready, but they still needed a lot of help Poland has been building just the I think the best force in Europe. It's not the largest. it's just beneath Turkey. U But I got to tell you, my assessment, if if Russia went in and cross the border of Poland I think there's a doctrinal term for this. They would get their ass handed to that. I think it's a doctrinal term. Yeah. I think it would cause most of the alliance to come together in an Article V conclusion and say Now you're invading a member unlike Ukraine. Now you're invading a member and I think most members would then join in any kind of defensive alliance Russia would be destroyed just by Poland in my v. Yeah. L L loveve to hear that. Shut out to the polls. Yeah. It's not hard to imagine, at least in our country, like the United States having a mixed reaction to that. Right And having there be some voices from the JD Vance wing within the administration saying, well, look at this, we don't want to escalate the types of stuff that you're hearing when Russia invaded Ukraine, right? Like theyll they'll threaten nuclear. you know, we don't want nuclear war over Eastern Poland Um, you definitely I think would hear that talking point from some in the mega circles. I don't know you know, whether that would prevail, but I think that would be And I think it would. I mean, if Russia were to invade Poland and use nuclear weapons, then you're dealing with a NATO force that has nuclear weapons in The UK, in France and in the United States, whether or not we would use them. So I don't think Russia would risk that. It would really be confounding if they did. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. I'm going to be honest with you. I am online way more than I probably should be. And between me and everyone else at my house, we've got a zillion screens going on at any given moment. So when my internet slows down, it is a full crisis. That's why having fast, reliable internet that can keep up really matters and why you need optimum famously fast fiber Internet Optimum fiber blows flaky five G out of the water and keeps it cool with the fastest and most reliable speeds that don't slow when things heat up. And right now, they have the deal of the summer, just thirty dollars a month for five years. So don't wait, callall eight eight eight for optimum. Visit optimum dot com or stop by your local optimum store today Famously Fast Fiber for thirty dollars a month for five years. You can't beat it Terms apply, see optimum d. com for details Let's just talk about the latest in Iran. Iran attacked two ships in the Strait of Hormuz yesterday One of them was a cutterry LNG tanker So our new daddies in Qutar are still getting attack in the strait. I guess it was traversing the Omani rooutot and the Iranians are still you're trying to control sure everything goes on the Iranian side of the strait. attected another ship as well Uh, you know It doesn't seem like the Treaty of Versailles two is really going that well, but wondering what your assessment is of the state of play Well, my assessment is everything I've seen and I've been looking hard for it is we still haven't concluded an MOU I mean, there's no conclusions on both sides that what's in the MOU is what they are going to do. Those are discussion points for the further meeting So we're now past the two week mark of the MOU wearing out We're nowhere close to having the sixty day or ninety day conclusion that The presresident and Secretary Rubio has said we should have So now we're talking about Basically, nothing has happened in the last two weeks It also I think one could conclude because Iran is still using weapons to fire its ships. that they still have a capability and they're standing by their end of what they wanted to talk about in the MOU and who controls the straight This is a signal that We still control the strait. We are still going to threaten ships that have insurance policies and they're not going to want to go through if we threaten them for fear of damage So you know, Tim, the interesting thing is over the last few weeks, I don't see anything having changed. In military circles, is there any even pitch for what the plan is to get out of here? I are there any like strategic options? what what are people saying? I got to be careful in saying this What I know is that the president has asked for different courses of action for what to do next. I'm sure one of those courses of action is let's just leave But that's not very viable. I mean, that's you know, we kiddingly in the military say whenever you pitch courses of action, there's normally three. There's a mama bear, papa bear, and baby bear. And one of them isn't going to be acceptable to the in this case, the president And I think they've probably pitched a variety of courses of action, of which none of which bring us out of this with any kind of a win You and I talked a long time ago about the fact that The best we can get out of this is a draw And I don't think that's even the case anymore. Yeah. You wrote this morning for us about story of Major Jason Watson who was arrested on the steps of the Capitol calling for Trump advances impeachment he was Air Force in uniform when he did this. Why't you just kind of summarize for people what you're arguing about Yeah, I went on MS now the night that he did this and the anchor asked me, what do you think about this? And I said, it's wrong and he will likely be disciplined for it. And I don't know how that discipline is going to whether it's going to be an admonishment, a court martial or anything in between This is not what the military does And I think there were a lot of citizens of the United States that said, boy, isn't this a brave guy that he would put his uniform on and go on the steps of the Capitol and ask for impeachment U Okay, and allegedly, Major Watson had a great deal of angst about doing it which is good because we teach those who wear the uniform not to have any openly political opinion when they're wearing the uniform because it reflects on an entire two million force and not everyone agrees with you. and plus It causes the citizens of the nation to say, can we trust the military to be representative of all of us A are they now taking ideological sides because of politicians That's the problem with it, Jim. I mean, anytime somebody in a uniform says something, against the government That's The first step of what one might call a potential coup action And that's not what the military does. We serve all the military serves all American people whatever their ideological viewpoints are and anyone that puts on a uniform and goes to the steps and recommends a political action is in the wrong because It violates several articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It violates a Department of Defense regulation, and it violates professionalism. That's not what we do Is it appropriate or is there not a course for somebody that's in the military to exercise their First Amendment right to protest? I address that in the article and say that unfortunately sometimes when you join the military, you give up or you're restrained in some of your constitutional rights, and the First Amendment is one of them. You don't talk about politics when you're in uniform So the action that one might take is say, okay, first of all, I'm going to talk to my commander of my thoughts I could say, hey, I'm a conscientious objector and won't deployed to any kind of war like Iran that are is being waged I could go to the lawyers in my command. I could go to write a letter to Congress and say, Hey, I'm in the active service and I don't like this And R. The final step is you say If I don't like this to the extent that evidently Major Watson doesn't The next step is instead of going on the steps of the Capitol, you tender your resignation as a military officer, and go on the outside in civilian dress and say, I used to be in the military and this is what I think about this. But that's the only step. and by the way, Jim, I think we've probably seen And we haven't seen the results of it yet, but we've seen probably a couple of retired generals and admirals who are likely going to do that when their retirement papers come through. People who have retired during this Trump second term, you expect to see that And as long as they're waiting for retirement, which most of them are, I could name three that I know of that may be willing to speak out after their retirements are approved or they're waiting for the end date. But I won't U But I think some of them have seen some things that they're ready to talk about We should invite them on the Borark podcast or on command post with Mark Hurtling on the Borwark YouTube page. People can subscribe now This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. I'm going to be honest with you. I am online way more than I probably should be. And between me and everyone else at my house, we've got a zillion screens going on at any given moment. So when my internet slows down, it is a full crisis. That's why having fast, reliable internet that can keep up really matters and why you need optimum famously fast fiber Internet Optimum fiber blows flaky five G out of the water and keeps it cool with the fastest and most reliable speeds that don't slow when things heat up. And right now, they have the deal of the summer, just thirty dollars a month for five years. So don't wait, callall eight eight eight for optimum. Visit optimum dot com or stop by your local optimum store today Famously Fast Fiber for thirty dollars a month for five years. You can't beat it Terms apply, see optimum d. com for details This is a little bit outside of your wheelhouse, but something that you wrote about in the article I think just kind of struck a thought in me about kind of something that we're discussing in political space today. And that's the Graham Platinner question. And you wrote about you know, as somebody in the military you have to balance like having this moral courage versus professional responsibility And I think that there have been basically the woman that came forth with the report on Platner and uh, you know, can the alleged assault esssentially said the same thing. I was talking about how she was grappling with that in her interview with Politico, and I sa thoughtw there was interesting parallel. she was talking about how basically she wanted Patner to win because she agrees with them politically and she understands The importance of Senate and she understands you know how important this is, but like she just felt like she had a responsibility to speak out so that people could see the full picture. And anyway, I just kind of wanted to give you an open ended opportunity to kind of discuss balancing like these questions in tricky situations Yeah, you know, I teach an MBA course And we talk about values and how every single person has to have their own personal values I have four. I won't cite them except for one. One of my personal values is personal courage the requirement to speak up Uh, and not You know, stand back when I see something wrong occurring