Final Verdict on Investment Choices

This episode of the Business is sponsored by PWC. Markets are shifting. teechnology and AI are reshaping industries. Druption is unavoidable Staying ahead and finding new opportunities for growth demands bold moves. This is where PWC makes things happen Working with you, combining the industry expertise, data insights, AI capabilities and business change experience. to help you reinvent and lead from the front PWC accelerates what's possible so you can turn vision into value. Discover more at pwc. co. uk This week, the world's biggest ever stock market debut and record shattering valuations. We dive into the details and ask, should we be worried? Does this all feel a bit similar to the dot com crash I think we need to have an open mind about the technology and we might say, well this sounds bonkers living on Mars and this sounds like very sci fi. But many years ago people said the same thing about high speed rails. This is definitely a revolutionary technology that is going to change our world. It is about the price we are paying and whether these valuations are justified Welcome to the B businessiness. I'm Domic O'Conll, Times colomist and business correspondent at Times Radio. And I'mannah Prevtz, associate Business editor at the Sunday Times. We are about to see something extraordinary in the history of public markets. The three largest share listings ever are about to happen and in a very short space of time. Pree tech companies, SpaceX, Anthropic and Open AI are about to sell their shares to the public for the first time, and each will be valued at one trillion dollars or thereabouts It's all happening in a very short space of time. SpaceX shares will start trading next week, june the twelfth. Anthropic, this week filed its plans with the regulators and open AI should come later this year, perhaps, September. together they're asking investors to stump up two hundred billion dollars. How will the markets find the money? Should we be worried about the world stock market being even more dominated by a tiny handful of companies. And will we ever see anything like this in the UK? To discuss this today, we're joined by Micah Curry, investment expert, current VP of Personal Finance at Pension B and Chck Warner, co founder of ADA Ventures, a London Venture Capital firm. weelcome to you both Thanks so much for having us. Thank you Mike, can I just start with you? Just to give us some context? So we're talking about these three big companies Space six anthropic open AI floating on a public stock market I think if you went to the person on the street and said talked about these companies, they would say, but hang on, they're already on the stock market, aren't they? Who owns at minute? and what are they doing? What are they doing with their shares? Well, I think it's astronomical the flotations that are coming. The women on the street already know the technology and they're already using the technology if he's talking about ChatGBT or we're talking about Tesla, which makes a part of SpaceX. So as people become more familiar with the technology and they use it, it's coming to the masses, more and more people possibly want to slice. And then we've also got this kind of familiarity, almost cult like following of the people at the head of these companies. So if I gave you the names Elon, Mark, Sam, Dario, they are so powerful. these indiv entrepreneurs. Exactly. these five men who control the most powerful technology, which we know is kind of on the scale of Of the things we've seen in the past like railways, electricity, automobiles, they've become household names and people feel like they already know them. Now they' are coming to the market. So why weren't they on a public market before? How did they raise money and get where they are now? It was always available to venture capitalists and the private sector, and that's where it gets really interesting because a company like SpaceX has been around for a while And when they do come to market, as we know, they've announced that they are IPOing Will a lot of these venture capitalists be looking at getting rid of those shares and the public being asked to absorb that? and are they overpaying? That's the key thing. The technology it's not a question of whether the technology is good. We know it it's changing our lives daily. We're becoming users of it. It's a question of whether it is a good investment. Just in terms of the scale of how much they're planning to raise So SpaceX said overnight They're planning to raise about seventy five billion dollars. If you add on the other three, you can get to about two hundred billion dollars Just to put it in context, we talked about HSBC being worth hundred billion dollars, would' a bit more actually The biggest ever IPO before this was Saudi Aramco, the state oil company, and they raised thirty billion dollars. So each one of them is much more than the biggest we've ever seen before Yes, And I guess the key question, if we're talking about SpaceX, in particular, it's a loss making company. So is that valuation reflective of the underlying business? And that's the bit we really need to dig into because this is being touted to retail investors, which ultimately is a good thing because we do want to democratize investing. We do want more retail investors to have a slice of the pie, but are they paying for a story that has already happened? How should you go about valuing these companies? Because as you say, all of them, I think I think all of them are lost making. Certainly SpaceX is lost making me know that Turnover of about nineteen billion dollars, loses four billion a year How should a rational Abista think about valuing something that's coming to market and doesn't make any money. Well, I think the first thing you need to do before you invest do you really understand the structure So this is a really interesting structure with SpaceX. Elon Musk will still control the bulk of it. There will be two share classes. If you are a retail investor, your share class will get one vote. Elon Musk will get ten votes. He is unsackable as the chief executive. He appoints the board, he can decide over mergers and acquisitions He can decide whether he wants to issue more shares, potentially diluting your shares without your consent. Do retail investors know this? And crucially, do UK retail investors know this? Because I'll just add, this is listed on the NASDAQ. It's a US investment. It does not have FSES protection because it's a foreign listed share. That's the UK government backed Exactation for investments Yeah But I don't mind any of that. if I'm buying a share in SaceX I'm buying share in Elon Musk. That's all I care about, isn't it That's literally the whole proposition is you're buying a little fraction of Iron Man of Tony Stark. That's what I. I would say you always need to lift the bonnet. What are you actually investing in? And this is a mismatch of all of Elon Musk's companies. Some of the successful ones like Starlink and some of the less successful ones like X Everything's being put together and a lot of the money that they're raising is going to be used to pay off debt. Do you want your money to be used to pay off Elon Masker's debt is que I wouldn't want mine to be used for that. It wass funny, I was at dinner earlier this week and we were talking around the table about if we'd like to have a few Elon Musks of our own in the UK. And let's just say opinion was very much split on that point. But on the valuation point check, we should ask you about this too, because clearly how you value a company is absolutely vital to the role you play in a kind of startups journey So what do you think about the valuation of some of these companies and should we be concerned? Yeah. I think know I invest at the very earlier stage. So this kind of valuation analysis is not really my bread and butter, but I think what's incredible about particularly anthropic and open AI is the revenue growth that we have seen over the last particularly year It is staggering. It is impossible to actually overstate how incredible these companies are Anthropic is less than five years old And it has gone from a nine billion run rate to a forty seven billion run rate in just a year the kind of on the ground view of this is also Sort of so clear, people are using claud code, people are using clawed everywhere and same with Tat. So Claude is the name given to the anthropic AI service. Yes, their main product. And I think what Really, all investors are looking for is growth. When you extrapolate that growth, you can see the value that is being created. Obviously at the moment, they're not profitable, as you say, and that is a question. And I think it's a difference between Anthropic and open AI actually that Anthropic have actually spent less money to get to the point that they're at. They're growing faster now And they are predicting that they'll be at cash flow breakeeven and profitability earlier than openen AI But a lot of this is detail that we don'tet have, because at the moment they're just kind of saying, hey, we've filed confidentially, we've bought an option. just a check, C I just ask you, Do that matter to investors? Because the old way of thinking used to be like burn loads of money. And if you're not burning enough investors' cash, you're not trying hard enough to grow. But that mentality does seem to have shifted slightly, doesn't it? Yeah, I think so. I think if you look back at history, companies that have burned a lot of money to get to high numbers of revenue have not done well in the public markets or the private markets. But I think what we've never seen before is this scale of revenue growth either I think what's really exciting for me actually, like you were saying, is that retail investors will get access to these companies. know Anthropic and open AI, they're not very old companies. And the whole kind of story to date has been, all these private companies have been staying private For a very long time, retail investors have not had access to these companies. It's really difficult to get access. And just speaking about anthropic, there is a huge amount of demand in the private market still for this company at over a trillion evaluation So it's not as if they can't raise money in the private markets, and that's why they're going public. Don't you though in your line of business have to deal with this question of how you value something that's loss making? Be if you're investing in something at an early stage, it's quite likely to be los making isn't it Yeah, are you really talking about credibility of management? and credibility of the business plan, perhaps. I think you're also talking about quality of product and stickiness of products and durability of revenues. And I think those are all the things that I would be really digging into and looking at The execution has been absolutely exceptional in these companies built multiple products in multiple areas that have been incredibly fast adopted and very successful And they have their sites on other markets as well. So they're expanding. They've got, I think a thousand enterprise customers paying them over a million pounds a year. in an anthropics case So it is Amazing how quickly this has happened, this adoption and how widespread the use cases are. It's not just coding agents, it's also people using projects, It's also people using Claud and open AI to write research papers, to write articles, to do whole agentic workflows. And I think we're still really early in this and that's what's exciting. And I think as an investor, that's what I'd be curious about looking at is How far into the kind of AI adoption wave really are we and how much kind of is that to come? It's worth a little detail here because a lot of people think about AI, think about chat GPT and open AI, which is one that was making all the running. But I think I if I'm right in saying that has changed a bit this year, hasn't it? a releasing these c workork packages, which are agents that will do things for lawyers, for marketeers, for contract lesses, whatever it is, that's made a difference. It really has is now happening is you can have an end to end workflow, you can have a whole job to be done done by these agentic systems And if you are, for example, you the other day created a presentation and just put in a long prompt and it created an entire PowerPoint deck, which I had to make a couple of small tweaks to, but that was it know And that is actually really radically changing how we are working. And I think now people are kind of joking that they're almost having to think about things that they can spend their time doing whilst the agion is going away doing their jobs Do you use a micro in your work? I do. My business uses it, We do use it and it massively helps in terms of productivity. And I think getting back to your point about SpaceX versus Anthropic Both of these are likely to be trillion dollar businesses, which in itself is kind of mind boggling, but they are very different investment cases. SpaceX has been around for more than twenty years. Anthropic has been around for five years and is generating huge revenue. So the question I would ask with SpaceX is is this being brought to public markets and to the retail investor after the party. The question with anthropic is, is the public ready for AI? We've all spoken about using the technology. are it's in our daily lives. And it is really interesting because you see kind of this in capitalism is when a few Business leaders bring a technology to the masses and the masses start using it. and it changes the world. And I mentioned, like railways, electricity, the banking sector, automobiles, and more recently the internet. When that technology goes to the masses, that's when it becomes truly revolutionary But my question still is, is it a good investment? And answering your earlier question, Dominic is how do I assess? Well, what value are you getting for the price you're paying? At this valuation, SpaceX is ninety times, ninety to one hundred times its revenue. Tesla is at sixteen times, right? And average three. It's crazy. Th aren't cash generative businesses. Elon Musk is really good at creating shareholder value because he's got that hope and dreams premium, but he's not that good at creating cash. Now do we have another stock or another company that that is a better premise? Yes, we've got NVIDia. Invidia is highly cash generative. Which reflects its valuation. And Dom, you just mentioned about the fact that Open AI was the one doing all the running in the first instance. Is there any kind of first mover advantage of anthropic IPOing first? Might it mean that by the time openen AI comes to the market that there's less appetite? Absolutely. There's massive advantage in being the first mover because you set the price And if there is a failure of whoever is the first mover, that might dampen appetite. So that's why there's this massive push to bring these companies to market. again, buyer beware, because if we do see a failure, that's going to set the benchmark for the other companies who come. So that's why we're seeing it and we've seen it before with the dot com bubble, we've seen it post COVID in twenty twenty one when a load of companies, class of twenty twenty one came to IPO. So it is about being the first movever advantage and that sets the price We do need to question whether the public is being you know is coming to the party after the party. know a lot of the growth has already happened and a lot of the venture capitalists who invested in SpaceX early on will be offloading their investments as soon as the company goes public. Cck, I saw you noddting along there too. What's your view on that? Yeah, I think there's going to be three massive IPOs going to kind of soak up so much capital. And actually a lot of companies are just not going public that are not necessarily AI first because they are sort of worried about that effect on the market. I think what's Unfortunate is that we've had this IPO window has been shut for a long time and it's been sort of slowly opening. These three companies feel like You know, the floodgatess getting open, but they may just soak up all of that demand and therefore leave all these other companies that are good companies, but maybe just don't have this kind of level of staggering revenue growth. This is going to affect UK investors, isn't it? Because we think there's going to be a UK retail offer, which is quite unusual actually. There aren't that many big retail offers in the UK Two billion dollars worth shares, one point three billion dollars worth shares. That would be the biggest UK retail offer since BT in nineteen eighty four. So if you're thinking of floating a company in the UK, all the potential retail investors could be cleaned up by this. So this could have a big effect on the London market I think it definitely will. I just think we've never seen anything of the scale, like as you were saying earlier And it's really unclear how it's actually all going to kind of play out But equally, I think that these technologies have also captured people's imagination in ways that have never been seen before. So I think there may be people who are users of these products who think, you know, this is really exciting that I actually get to participate as a shareholder and be on that journey because if, say we are really in the early innings of this And we're only just starting to see kind of the enterprise adoption happening. Maybe there is huge growth. And I think Fom where I sit, I see particularly in open A and anthropic. that actually there's huge demand still from the private markets. And I don't think the party is is sort of over there and that's why they're looking to go public. The other sort of thing that perhaps this is one for you, Mica is this other sort of If you take a very big view of this All these tech companies has been happening for about ten years now and it's going to get worse with these three have into a situation where the U.S. T market is now about twenty five percent of the entire world stock market. The rest of the US is about another forty percent, and then the rest of the world is about another forty percent. Should we be worried about the concentration of just so much money from around the world in like tin companies. it a It is something to keep an eye on because we have seen the rise of passive investing in recent years. J explain what passive passive investing are investment vehicles, tracker funds that track an index. So it could be the S andP five hundred or it could be the MSCI Global and it just follows the market. Now if that market is disproportionately made up of tech companies or a few tech names and one of those tech companies file Those passive funds are exposed to that. And a lot of pension funds are invested in passive funds because they're massive benefits to passer funds. You get the market growth and the market rising at much lower costs. So it is something to keep an eye on. And specifically with SpaceX, about within the course of a week, NASTAQ has looked at its listing rules actuallyct, SpaceX will be absorbed into that index much quicker than was previously the case. So there's been a change to listing rules. Now you might then ask the question, how exposed are your pension investments to a company like SpaceX? I do think we need to take a step back. and if we look at it at a benchmark or indices like S andP five hundred As it stands, SpaceX will only be a very small slice, or something like zero point one four percent. So it's not something to be concerned about. Andthropic and open AI, if they come to the market will be much smaller But it is key because when you think about passive investing, you think the market is determining the size of the companies. But increasingly, there's an active decision involved in how these indices are made up. So that is something to keep an eye on We are disproportionately more exposed to the tech companies in our underlying investments in terms of the MSCI Global having a high exposure to North American funds, North American funds. When you say MSI Global, this is a company that makes a composite index for the world and for China,es, US, whatever. And your MI global index is kind of an index of the global markets It is quite heavily invested or exposed to North America, probably about sixty percent. And as we know, the US is dominated by tech companies. So already, as a retail investor, you and I already have exposure to these names in our long term investments. So I would say just be conscious of that exposure because if we do see a correction It could be quite volatile and markets are quite frothy at the moment. So proceed with caution. I would also say and this is an investment advice, but if you are thinking, well this looks really exciting, I do want exposure to the story because this is the future. Make sure it's your play pot ing the farm on it. Just to sort of boil that down a bit. Point is that whether you like it or not. If you've got a UK pension, odds are you're can have some exposure to SpaceX and certainly some exposure to or at least one of probably all three of these companies Yes, Well, I know lots of retail investors already hold an investment trust like Scottish Mortgage. It's a very popular name among retail investors and it has got about nineteen percent in SpiceX already. UK retail investors might already have more exposure to the story than they realize. It's the same thing I think that's going on in the private markets as well. There's just this kind of concentration of capital into fewer companies and fewer names and also in AI. So I think it was sixty five percent of global VC investment in Q one of this year just went to four deals It was just openinganthropic XA IN Waymo and accross kind of AI in general, eighty percent of capital went into AI in Q one of this year And it's the same thing also with venture funds. I think Andreres and Horabz last year raised twenty percent of US LP dollars What that does is it actually removes diversity, it removes the ability to come up with new ideas because actually everyone is so consensus driven. It's almost like that hype mode is that everyone's driving into the same things. And I think you're hinting at it there when you said about the kind of lack of diversity. You know when we talk now about the characters behind these companies, they almost don't need their full name anymore. We all know who we're talking about when we're talking about Elon, you know and Sam, Mark and so on. That can be a bit of a problem. Isn't there some kind of social responsibility here to make sure that everyone feels the benefits of this AI revolution and not just this concentration of men Absolutely. And I think this SpaceX IPO will make Edon the wealthiest person in the world or you know they're thereabouts you already. And I think this is this is unprecedented. I mean you talked about some of the sort of other technologies historically that we could compare to, but actually AI is more powerful than any of those technologies put together. It is thinking machine. It is more sophisticated than Was it a data center of PhDs? you know, Dario said at one point. and That makes it incredibly dangerous as well I am concerned about is that you pretty much have a handful of people controlling this unbelievably powerful technology.unds in raising money for your f Yeah Are your investors only interested if you can tell the musin I've got the intern from openen AI who's walked out the door and by the way, there's a five billion dollars evaluation on this. It's a super interesting question. I mean, right now I can tell you that every investor in the world is trying to get access to some of Anthropic and open AI. I mean everyone I speak to, they want to buy secondaries, they want to buy things through SPVs, which actually has been Anthropic issued a statement saying that we're not accepting these sort of SPV's that people you meancial purposeesur, which been created specifically for the purpose of buying before the float. Exactly. unless you're actually on the share register It's actually unclear whether these SPVs are valid. There's a huge amount of hype, huge amount of demand. But in the early stage market where we operate There is also this sense that if you've been at Deepmind, if you're coming out of openen AI if you're coming out of Palantir, then you get this huge premium, you get a huge valuation. And unfortunately, the cohort of those people are extremely undiverse. those companies have not necessarily prioritized diversity in their hiring or in recruiting and training people So you're getting even more concentration of power and of influence into a very small subset of people And our fund's mission is about finding the next A of Lovelaces, know trying to find people who are completely visionary, who are amazing technologists, who can do wonderful things, but actually haven't come up in those environments. It's almost like the equivalent of the old boys network, what school you went to or what university you went for, but kind of for the modern era but I do think this is coming up more in conversation. As I said, I hosted that at South by Southwest kind of fringed dinner earlier this week. This was a massive topic of conversation and in fact, we're streeting at South by Southwest yesterday afternoon also talked about how the UK can play a role in creating I guess an ethical framework around some of this stuff to be world leading to make sure, yes, that we don't just have this huge concentration of power, but I think it's a trillion dollar question orhaps won't solve here. Does it crow O other technologies as well, Cick. So So if you're going to the funders and saying, I've got this really good manufacturing company to invest in and they say, You know actually what we want is a moon base. Totally. And I think it's a real loss actually, because there's amazing technologies, other technologies in the UK that actually need our investment. Quantum, for example, is an area that actually there's been some great big rounds in the last few weeks in Quantum. but know, we need to build the infrastructure around quantum and also energy infrastructure And know we invest across in health as well. And a lot of these sort of slightly less sexy technologies are not getting as much investor interest or anything like as much So we are kind of losing out and we've got to think about what's the next wave that comes after AI and how can we build that? And how can we in the UK, everyone in the UK benefit from this as opposed to just a few Very, very wealthy US leaders. Check, we've talked about some kind of crazy valuations and sums of money here. Do you think that we will be able to create a one trillion dollar company here in the UK in the next disled future? Absolutely, definitely. I mean, if you can look at the Deepmind story, Deepmind actually completely kicked off this whole AI, open AI anthropic it's all too early, arguably. It did There are still exceptional world leading researchers are in that company and are coming out of that company and are being funded. And I think that it just speaks to the amazing potential and richness of the UK. We have amazing talent here slightly frustrates me is that a lot of that talent is also being backed by U.S investors at the seed rounds, in fact. So it's not even that UK funds are able to sort of lead those first rounds because I think there's a sort of bullishness and a risk taking and a kind of patent recognition that's going on from those US funds We had a campaign that was launched at the beginning of this week by Baldderon, which is a UK fund and investing across Europe called built in Europe, which is all about celebrating the stories of companies that are being built in Europe. and we had some of our portfolios companies participate in that. And it does feel like a really optimistic time in the UK. We have as good a chance as any ecosystem to create the next trillion dollar company Do stay with us. We're just going to take a short break, but we'll be back right after this This episode of the business is sponsored by PWC. Every leader is looking for that next opportunity for growth requires bold action Forward. always clear This is where PWC comes in transforming your operations and supercharging your workforce to building resilience and more Working with you side by side to bring the deep tech and AI expertise, strategic insight and industry knowledge empower you to reinvent create new value and lead from the front PWC accelerates what's possible so you can turn vision into value. Discover more at pwc. coot uk So we've talked a lot about how kind of frothy the market is at the moment. Obviously sometimes you get frothiness before a bust. Do you think we could be heading for the equivalent as the dot com bust of ninety nine ninety thousand? I think The market is definitely frothy and we should probably be prepared for volatility to spike But this is definitely a revolutionary technology that is going to change our world. It is about the price we are paying and whether these valuations are justified One of the signs that always you know prefigures a market meltdown is errtic. and strange behavior Isn't the space . IPO forit that. So Par of Eila Musk compensation is' tied to him having a one million inhabitant Poony on Mars Now, to me, that fits the template for erratic and strange behavior, isn't it? Aren't kind of these ludicrous fit ninety six times earnings? These kind of crazy evaluations and crazy incentive schemes Aren't they the sign of that actually, this could be a very good time I think we need to have an open mind about the technology and we might say, well, this sounds bonkers living on Mars and this sounds like very sci fi. But many years ago, people said the same thing about high speed rail. scientists said that human beings couldn't travel at that speed. People said the same thing about Henry Ford and the motor carar and the automobile and he started to produce it in mass production and everyone got a motor car. So I'm keeping an open mind about the technology. My concern is what we are paying for this investment? And when we look at the investment, when we lift the lid, the debt, the structure The fact that Elon Musk has all the control that he's unsackable. this is the most unshareholder friendly company that has ever come to the US market in history. He's got complete control. UK investors are being asked to invest without knowing that this is a US security listed on the NASDAQ, that doesn't have the protection that it will have if it was a UK IPO And then looking under the bonnet and saying, there's some interesting companies y. someome of them have been really successful, but some of them have failed woefully. I would look at the individual investment and say, is this a good investment? The same with anthropic? Is this a good investment? Is there revenue? What we've seen with a company like Tesla is the market doesn't value this company on the same basis. They lose all sense of valuations and the market is also acting really strange. You know, We've had all these massive events from the war in Ukraine, to the COVID nineteen pandemic, to Trump tariffs, to the war in the Middle East, and still the market keeps climbing. There's a definite disconnect. and that should be flashing signs of red and kind of buyer beware. Look at what you're buying. Don't just be so enthralled by what this technology could be that you don't actually look at what you're paying and what you're getting for that. How about you, Cck? what are you hearing? Because obviously you're really plugged into the kind of startup tech community. Are there any concerns of a bubble forming? What I see on the ground is that revenue is real and demand is real and that this is being used in companies like mine All of our portolio companies bar none They are all adopting more of this. they want more tokens, they can't get enough I think what's going to be interesting is a bit like perhaps with Uber and Lyift how much actually are these model token costs being subsidized in the private markets by investors who are kind of happy to deal with less profitability, but actually when they become public, public markets will be scrutinizing that more. and actually token costs And the kind of contract costs will go up That is a question that we just don't know yet. These companies are so young And we're still so early in this. We just don't know how durable these revenues are. We don't know how price sensitive these customers are. we also don't know how much more people will use them if they start to find that it's actually just so essential to people's workflows. And we should probably wrap up there, I'm going to finish with a very unfair question at the end. So we have the three IPOs, spos tothropic, open hour coming up. You're allowed to buy one and you have to buy So you could have to choose to one to throw away, one to buy. Micro, I think you're to buy S speics A? Well, I'll tell you what I already did, okay, and this is not investment advice, I'll stress. I have a holding in Scottish mortgage as many UK retail investors, whichich is an investment trust that specializes on these tech companies. Yes, that has been really good at spotting the next tech eur, if you. Tesla, Fisberg. So what I did do is I sold a bit of the profits on my Scottish mortgage investment trust and I reinvested that in Sapfin When they were raising, because I think one I'm supporting the UK economy, I'm supporting UK investment trust. say we should say who Sarah F a sppace investment trust who'se boss Mark Boger was on this programme not that long ago. And it's well diversified. It's in a structure that I understand. it is liquid. so that was my punt, if you like. And one that you will, would buy shares and would buy shares as anthropy Well, having sat next to and heard a bit more, I think it is a really compelling story because it is a young company. It's only been around for five years. The revenues are real. I speak to so many people working in the city who are using Claude to do those PowerPoints. So I definitely think it's compelling C youck same question. I want to be controversial, but I think I'm going to say that I would buy Anthropic. and the reason for that is just how much I see it being used in WhatsApp groups in communities I'm part of, people are building with it. And it's also forming part of the kind of infrastructure layer of other companies that have application layer technology iss on top. so we invest in a lot of vertical AI and they're using kind of Claud as a baseline model So I would buy anthropic. I think I would I don't think I would buy SpaceX I think some of the points you were making also have sort of influenced me. and again, this is not investment advice. but I think it is