Building trust through in-person collaboration

This episode of the Business is sponsored by PWC. Markets are shifting. teechnology and AI are reshaping industries. Druption is unavoidable Staying ahead and finding new opportunities for growth demands bold moves. This is where PWC makes things happen Working with you, combining the industry expertise, data insights, AI capabilities and business change experience. to help you reinvent and lead from the front PWC accelerates what's possible so you can turn vision into value. Discover more at pwc. co. uk Welcome to this bonus episode of The Business, sponsored by PWC. We're recording in LA today where we are all gathered for Greater Getather, a summit to celebrate trade and business between the UK and the US I'm Hanah Prevtz, associate businessusiness editor at the Sunday Times. And with me today is Marco Ametrano, senior partner at PWC UK and Michael Frolish, CMO and corporate affairs offfficer at WPP, one of the world's largest marketing and advertising groups. Welcome to you bothase. Thankks for being here. than So Marco, to you, we talk a lot about the special relationship between the UK and the US. Is that still the case? Do that relationship endure? Well I want to start off Hannah by saying I think the term special relationship is probably outdated and not helping there because it feels a bit too nostalgic and actually Every interaction I've had here positive forward looking actually starts to stunt a little bit with the term special relationship. I just don't think it's right for the way we need to look forward now Wonderful for the history books, but I think we could overdo it with this now. And I don't think the Americans are responding the way they used to to that term. And therefore, as Brits, I think we've got to drop it. I don't know whether Michel would agree with. I think you're right. the relationship is definitely evolved. There is still a strong relationship and obviously we'll get into that Yeah, the terminology is old fashioned and words do mean something. So kind of retiring that and looking at the fundamentals that our relationship is what we should be doing. And you're right, the relationship is great. But I just think it needs to feel like it's moving on and that term is holding it back. what's of view from the business community? Is that what you hear from your clients about the you know, whether we call it a special relationship or an important trading relationship? Yeah. I think you get a sense of that being here, don't you? How important is? Yeah, look, I said this morning actually in some comments I made to So the the whole room. The UK and the U.S are independent nations that have to have their own priorities they're also fundamentally interdependent. Both sides see that. And that is about certain sectors It is in part about some of our history It is, you know, the classic two nations separated by a common language. You know, there's a lot of fondness interdependency is there for future opportunity, but it has to be taken in the context of independent countries with independent priorities. And Michael, coming to you, obviously WPP has a huge presence in the US. How important is the US as a market to you and how easy is it to get things done here? Yeah. It's incredibly important. It's a much higher growth market and opportunity for us in marketing services. Just generally the budgets are bigger and a lot of global clients operate from here. so we operate in over one hundred and forty countries. but often the biggest clients. bas and HQed in the US. And getting stuff done here is easier than in other markets, including in the UK and Europe. Even in the current political climate, what impact does that have? You know I was speaking to somebody last night and they said that Trump lives rent free in our heads in the UK. You know There's barely a day that goes by and he's not in headlines. But actually when you're out here, people are just getting on with business. find that? hundred percentaking the politics politics out of it from a business perspective. The US is much more aggressive and ambitious and everyone is just getting on with it. business is business. We don't see a slowdown or anything like that. as long as you kind of just don't get into the deep politics of it. and that's not you we're on the business side on politics side, but from a business perspective, it carries on. And how about you, Marco, from your perspective, kind of separating the kind of day to day politics, whether the UK where obviously we have our own challenges. And I think it's interesting when I left Heathrow earlier this week, we were all talking about the wranglings in number ten, what's going to happen, who our next leader is going to be. But within a few minutes even of kind of taking off and coming out to LA, it's sort of a distant memory. It's a reminder there's a big world out there So yeah, how much does the kind of political landscape how businesses trade with the US. I think relatively more in the UK., it does affect business more in the UK Partly it iss because of the anticipation of, you know changing fiscal policy could mean to industrial policy, there's more of a tendency to hesitate quantum and direction of investment in the UK because of our politics versus the US. Whereas Michael said, you could be here and feel like nobody cares You know, it's interesting stuff on the news all the time, but it's not actually affecting commercial decision making. If anything, it's accelerating it. So there is that and I put it down to a number of differences, which include culture in business actually, what you know, they they we are a lot more measured in the UK. Business leaders tend to want to pause and think and make really, really good decisions partly because when things go wrong in the UK, It's seeming pretty negatively, whereereas in the US something goes wrong, you just clean it up and move on. So there is that sort of cultural difference in business that I think politics affects more in one place than the other. And I think that's on the media side as well. So how the media to your point about things could become much more negative in the UK. I think the way the media in the UK, the way it operates the business media versus the media in the U.S is different as well. So it's just much more the starting point in the US is just from more positive evs. Yeah. And that's no offense for you, Hannah. They love on me absolutely. Obviously, the Sunday Times is exempt from it. and we do lots to our champion entrepreneurship, as you know. So but just remaining on the kind of politics point again, with the situation in the UK Do people in the US really care to business leaders when we're talking about inward investment, you were just talking about investment in the UK, Marco. You know making those long term decisions when you don't know who's going to be in power, particularly if it's somebody to the left of the Labour Party like Andy Burnham, that could leave investors with cold feet, cann't it? Yeah. They don't mention names, but they really do care actually cautious on the UK regarding commitments around regulation or deregulation, they are cautious around some of our rules and what it means to slowing down or lowering the likelihood of success in the UK. I've heard it a number of times in the last few days some of it sector specific, some of it more broadly, that the UK is just not feeling business friendly right now. That's the American view on the whole. Yeah. You know, whilst we've been out here, one of those candidates, where Streeting was talking about introducing a wealth tax. And I know lots of the entrepreneurs I speak to you see that as being kind of anti ambition, right? which is one of the things we're talking about I hear less about the. from the last few days, I've heard less about the wealth tax stuff. more about the sector specific barriers to be enable to launch a new drug Aace or to be able to accelerate some investment and the impact of it. they just feel like we put hurdles up in the UK. Now we believe in the UK, we have those things for good reason. We are We worry about the impact on people on society and I would never want to be thrown to the wind, but just relatively to the landscape they're looking at O countries have begun to look more favorable particularly when it comes to fiscal policy, tax policy than the UK is looking. And I do think our government has to focus on that and it will be about some very specific things that if a tax break is given on It will attract that business or that production to the UK rather than elsewhere in Europe And that is fundamental to the growth of our economy Now There is a philosophical issue here, I think, for our government, which is seeing giving a tax breakers giving something away and not the right policy to be seen in the eyes of our general public They can be clear and we can all be clear that a tax break is about economic growth that benefits everybody, then that's got to be where we focus. It's sometimes about telling theess giving the message, isn't it? Like the storytelling, how you sell it to the kind of British public. Not just the thing, but the impact. and then being accountable for delivering on that impact. And of course, you mentioned at different economies in Europe, we're competing for this kind of talent and for these people, but also the Middle East, where you spend lots of your time, right? which is increasingly attracting. lotots of the entrepreneurs I know have sold their businesses for you know nine figure sums and then moved out to Dubai. Yeah, which offers has, you know, for a long time now offered a great standard of living, high levels of security and you know, a tax regime that's favorable to wealthy people. Some of the things I've just mentioned aren't as attractive right now as they once were, given turbulence in the Middle East. Now whilst we all hope and expect that will all calm down at some point, I think there is a kind of recalibration of the benefits of being, say either London or Dubai or elsewhere. I do think as a UK, no matter what's going on elsewhere in the world, we have to be marketing ourselves We have to be selling the package of why the UK is the best place to be building a business, raising a family and Frankly, you know betting on your future So yeah, Michael, I was going to say with all the changes that that's a probleomm. hundred percent agree and part the problem with the current turmoil in the political system just it's a distraction and it's been a constant, constant change. And to be able to develop a narrative to tell our story, there has to be stability. The stability of the system is so important for investors to make that confident move into the UK. And how much do you think about it as a kind of executive team? Clearly WPP has been through an evolution Yes In recent years, it continues to be a one, you know, Cindy Rose was here yesterday, wasn't she? Yes So how much do you think about that kind of political landscape when you're turning around this business? Yeah, I mean we have obviously we have to consider it because it has impact on different policies and how we might govern the business moving forward as a public limited company in the UK. But just like we said earlier in the US, we just get on with it. So our clients are our clients They need servacy. We are utterly client obsessed So we are focused on what they need, where to deliver it. If we can't deliver it in one country, we'll deliver it for them in another country. and we get on with them. That's how Really we're transforming the business. We have just focused absolutely gignightly on what our clients need And we just talked about marketing the UK better as a place to do business. So let's do or play our part in that. Why is the UK still the best place for you to be know kind of building WPP? Well, I think the UK has been the center of the creative industries and creative force. Forever And I still think the innovation, the technology creative prowess and that comes out is still top notch and still globally seen as the best in the world. So for us as a marketing services company and a creative business it is so important. the UK is so important keep on showing off what we do as a country in terms of the creative industry. I think get a real sense of that here, don't you, Marco? I think I definitely have my eyes opened. pererhaps I spend too much time around of technology businesses. But being here you get a real sense of that kind of British creativity, whether it's through music Enertainment, you know we have the chief executive of the National Theatre here. I was sitting on the plane near the managing director of the Tates. But the creative industries, we often forget about them. donon't we in this new world of tech and AI? Well, I mean I don't forget about them. Look, it's one of our profound strengths in the UK is those creative industries. I think the fusion of that with technology has just opened up a very yet different world. And it is actually one of the key partnerships that has been there for a long time and will continue to be between the US and UK Let's call it on the whole pure quality content that comes from the UK, the quality of the thinking, the quality of the people the technology that and scale that the U S bring to the table that takes that whole industry to a different world, to different experiences for people much more broadly around the world Um So yeah, I mean, particularly in Los Angeles, you know, that's where you're going to see that on show and we have over the last few days. Yeah. And seeing watching the people who haveve come you say from different institutions in the UK. like Fran who's the CEO of the Edinburgh International Festival is they are bringing American artists to the UK because they want to appear and perform in the Liverpool Pharonic Orchestra or the Edinburgh Festival or at the National American talent wants to perform in the UK in our institutions And that has never changed and I think it's as strong as ever And we should be really proud of it. We should be absolutely celebrating and it has been the last couple of days,. Overall, we should be continuingly celebrating it. Absolutely. And so I've been speaking to lots of business owners well. I've been here too about who are expanding in the US as a jewelry maker, a brand called Freya Rose. seventy percent of her sales now come from the US. it sort of happened by accident, but now it's a very deliberate thing is your advice for businesses who want to make it in the US and do you need boots on the ground? We hear this term quite a lot, Freya is choosing to stay in the UK for now, but perhaps she'll consider moving at a later point. Marco, what do you hear from business leaders about making it in the U.S, you know, fulfilling the American dream. Jud need to move her Look, you have to be here and you have to be committed. I don't think it's I don't think it's something you can do as successfully as you would want to remotely So it is about putting a clear stake in the ground that being in the US is one of your most important priorities and increasingly, you with President Trump, you have to prove that with investment, prove it with presence But then this is a country and a market that then responds to that really positively And there aren't many that come here and don't grow successfully. You know, and you know, that's just it's what makes it such an attractive place to do business is definitely not the only place you should be doing business today because I think Um, You know All of the multinational organizations I work with benefit from the different perspectives they can draw in around the world to keep innovating, to evolve their products and services But the US will always be a buyer So you have to be here And what would you add to that, Michael? I think you've just I agree, but I think you have to come with your eyes open. So We are two nationsated separated by the same language, etcetera. But it is a very different market here. And America is huge and' many states and the nuances and the differences H massive. So the mistake is just a pick up a UK business and put it in somewhere in the U.S inew York and go, but it's going to be the same. It is not the same cultural differences are huge. Absolutely have to have some boots on the ground and be here but also now with AI and technology and the access to data U on u on people and different audiences. There is a lot that you can do not you know when you don't have to physically be here, there is a lot you couldn't do to unlock different audiences, but always bearing in mind that they are different everywhere you've got to really focus on what you're trying to do, who you're trying to sell to And what is that audience absolutely it's like? Because it's not guaranteed to be a success w. the you know British kind of business landscape is littered with skeletons of organisations that tried to make it in the US and never managed to make a success of it. Where do they often come unstuck, Marco? Probably some of the things that Michael's talking about, they've underestimated thing All I just haven't put sufficient investment into it. They've tried to, you know, and again, it's very British in the way we invest Um is to invest a little bit get a return before we invest the next bit. And you know again, coming back to something we said earlier you have to be all in in America. and then, I think more often than not, you see success. In the advertising industry over the decades, I've seen many UK agencies, creative agencies who have just shown up and just, you know, I'm right, we're here now And within months, they're They're going backad back to the UK because if you're going to be here, you've got to be here. And you said, you've got to invest and you have to make the real effort. Yeah. And one of the things I think that we've seen over the last few days here in LA is the power of gathering together, right? There were people who said to me after the plane journey over and obviously the plane is now notorious. I don't think either of you came on the plane, did you? No We missede It was quite something. It was like a ten and a half hour mixer, right? Anyway, with perhaps a few glasses of wine thrown in for good measure like every good mixer. But there were people who said to me subsequently, even if they'd done nothing else once they got here It was worth it just for the plane journey because they met people who they will do business with. Yeah. So building relationships in a post COVID world, it has to be done, you know, we could all hop on a Zoom. We're all bored to death of Zoom, I'm sure you'll agree. But yeah, the power of kind of building relationships in person can't be overstated, can it? No no, becausecause it I mean, look you learn particularly in the business I've grown up in, professional serviceices fundamentally underpinned by trusted relationships It's not what people say is how they're saying it that in to be the things that help you understand people and really build those relationships is hard empathize or understand people are really coming from over a couple of screens in person dialogue. is quite important. that there's a killab bit of trust that is only, in my view, ever built in in person dialogue you know, and lots of There's lots of viewpoints around technology and where artificial intelligence is going that wants to challenge what I just said And maybe we will see something different to what I just said at some point, but it's no time soon. Yeah, I think WP our mission is to be the trusted growth partner for the world's leading brands and trust part being trust is about relationships And as M said, you could only go so far Oddy So being together and building that relationship is key. but also there's partnership. and one things that we've seen here and we massively focus on is partnerships When you get two organizations to come together, there is an alchemy that can be created And because the world is moving so fast and AI and technology is moving so fast, no one can do everything No one can be ahead of the game on everything. So you've got to partner. So the businesses that I think will continue to succeed are those that choose the right partners and build an ecosystem I was on a panel actually with Cindy WPP yesterday, Simon Fuller from XIX. and Andrew Fermer B and B. And that was the subject of our panel yesterday here was partnerships and how prettyty much kill a competitive advantage now is about partnerships and we We went industry by industry in our conversation, but ultimately technology platform importance is recognized. you know platforming new partnerships through technology and evolving technology critical. But we're all in violent agreement, I think that fundamentally those partnerships will still depend on the human relationships that sit on top of those technological platforms. So if partnerships are that vital, as you both just described, how do you make sure you choose the right ones? Because know I know you both are in the kind of big business world, the corporate world in the worlds in which I operate most of the time. Th these are smaller companies and choosing the wrong partner can actually be really fatal So how do is it about building relationships, looking them in the whites of the eyes and all of that Stuff, Do your due diligence, do you have any tips, either of you? I mean it's all of those things.es. There's definitely a gut. you know there's a human intuition, but doing your due diligence and ensuring that there is mutual benefit from both sides if you are not getting the same benefit out of it as your partner, then that's not a partnership So that's why the due diligence is so important. But I think that mutual value is really important. And also when you're going into it, and looking for the right partners, really understand what you're looking for. understand what is it you're trying to get out of that partnership and that should start to guide you to the to the right place So I'd say even before you can to where Marl is China needs to be a couple of key ingredients that you've already agreed as two potential partners. One is there's something you're both trying to achieve that you can't individually. So There needs to be some sort of objective outcome, something that you're striving for, some sort of vision that you're trying to get to together And secondly, you both bring something that the other one hasn't got It can state the obvious, but one of my observations of the last few years is there's a lot of partnerships out there that don't have that. They're indifferent to each other. There There's been a period where everyone needs to have a partnership with everybody else and then work it out later. You know There's lots of partnerships between professional services and technology providers industry specific partnerships with different players that never worked out. common objective was and they don't go anywhere. I think also with As technology moves so much faster and new services and products come out There is a danger of incrementalism So you will partner or you'll buy u some technology help your business. But if you're not looking at the full strategic picture, it could just be incremental and you can find yourself with a whole collection of partners who don't work with each other, it doesn't integrate. so none of them is really serving you holistically. And then that becomes a problem. bigiggest frustrator And I guess it's also about then reviewing those partnerships and making sure that they still serve you a year, eighteen months, three years in Well and everything that's moving so fast that it's probably more monthly. So we're here in LA. We've heard a lot the last few days about kind of ambition. I really liked the session that we saw yesterday with Tim Davies and the NFL player talking about the floor and the ceilings, so the idea that in America there's no ceiling on your ambition Whereas in the UK, there's this floor. so there's kind of this level that we can't kind of pass beneath. we're supported by the state, etcetera What does the US bring in terms of big Bolds ambitions and what do we have to learn? but also what do they have to learn from us Be as you both say, this is a reciprocal thing So Marco, what can we learn from our American cousins? Do we need to be a bit more bullish, a bit bolder? I fundamentally believe we do. I spent three years of my life here. My son's a US citizen. so it wasn't only a great three years of my career. It was life changing while I was here. and Yeah, it's just a level of belief forward looking, ambitious belief issue, you know, it energizes you. It does need to be kept in check sometimes, for sure. And that's where I think pect of the British culture which are about quality decisions, which are about doing the right things can keep some of that in the right zone So we need a bit more of what the Americans bring. I've always thought that But then thatic that classic British diplomatic intelligent rapper to it, I think is the perfect combination. Yeah, when I arrived home in the UK after three years here back into my office because it was part of of a career cycle with PWC My colleagues tellld me I was unbearable. Von woman as. I mean they could not stand me like Marco, can you please take the edge off Could it have just become natural here? and actually if you didn't develop that character try to be in a room here Yeah, you'd end up being the shrinking violet that didn't get a word in edgeways, but you do have to sort of have something you ramp up and down when you're dealing back purely in the UK or dealing with Americans. Yeah. definitely. That' so interesting. Yeah the pace over here, particularly I think on the east coast is extraordinary compared to the UK. The days are longer faster, fuller. so they've got to be kind of in the game when you're here working. But I mean I totally ag agreree Marco. The difference in the US is just that ambition and that propelling forward and constant forward momentum. We just don't quite have that in the UK in the same way. But there are things that they can learn from us too, right? And the kind of platitudes. I did hear this a bit yesterday The Americans, like you say, because they're so kind of boisterous and you know very kind of gregarious and everything's su positive all the time Britishers sometimes wouldn't go mess Yeah, absolute abbsolutely. I think, you know, particularly the way we are able to bring a conversation, whether it's through that classic little bit of sarcasm or you know, with warmth, we're able to bring something back to What are we really talking about here? We like to ground things out in facts and truths. Now of course, you learn not just in life, but in business possible for there to be more than one truth in any situation. And I think as Brits, we're very good at recognizing that rather than just slamming our one truth onto the table. And business global business is better off for the Brits being involved. The Americans would say that. Yeah, I don't know what PWC is like over here, but particularly in our US HQ in New York. we have a lot of Brits who work there. So there is absolutely a great ecosystem we have a lot of other nationalities working there as well. So having that mix of all the different personalities and the way the people operate actually finds a lovely balance of working every day Well, it's funny actually, because my in PWC The UK and the US. firms are the two lead firms in across one hundred and forty countries And actually I spent my major career cycle tour was in the US, Myopo in the US, his major career cycle tour was in the UK. Aually, we naturally understand each other Our challenge when we get together is make sure we don't forget that we still need to understand everywhere else in the global network and every other culture out there in order to be the organisation we want to be, which is one that mirrors the world. Absolutely. same with us Perhaps we should finish with some kind of advice, so your kind of top tips or perhaps things not to do when you're looking to expand to the US. Michael, how about you? what's your kind of top piece of advice for British businesses wanting to make it in the US? I think something We've really we've really touched upon.' it's coming with ambition and coming with your eyes open and being committed. If you're going to come, you've got to come and you've got to come properly and to really understand the US is not one homogeneous yet zed and people are very different So you yeah, eyes open come with investment. commitment and ambition And Iight add to that clear what you're bringing here that isn't already here