Vance's Path to the Republican Nomination

This is an IiHart podcast Guaranteed human. Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. mininimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. Full terms and wagering requirements at horseshoe onnlinecasino dot com slash promos. If you or someone you know is a gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler is Ke Miller from OK Storyime. So I have a furry friend named Mia She'siter a bundled of joy and love who can never get enough pets, cuddles, and attention. To me She's more than a pet, she's practically family And I love my pets Part of that love is what's best for them And for my dog, that includes the best diet Jinx, all dogs deserve to eat well. Jinx has premium all natural food, toppers, and treats to transform your dog's health and happiness no matter your dog's size or age Jinx's number one ingredient is high quality protein like Atlantic salmon, cage free chicken, grass fed beef, and lamb to support strong muscles and heart health. Jinx never has any fillers like corn, wheat, or soy. For me, I get her the mini biscuits, meal toppers, kibble, the kibble sauce, and ready meals. But for her, I think she loves the mini biscuits the most just because she loves the taste and not to mention The sound of the crutch. Jinx offers plenty of healthy and fun options for your dog Shop at national retailers like Walmart, Petmart, Chhewy or Amazon This is Tony Yeo from the Real Report with Tonyo and Uncle Murdder. You ha ever noticed how everything keeps going up, rent, streaming, even extra sola at your favorite burrito spot. But with Boost Mobile, you don't have to play the Willis goo up Zom game. 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So you're paying for exceptional quality, but you're paying much less of that markup Um lookook, I've I'd love what I've gotten from Quintince. I have you see more Quintince clothes on me than you may realize. You know, they're not somebody that shoves their label out the door, which frankly I kind of like too All right, I'm not here Trust me, I've been wearing lot of quuins.y way, not clothing and Quinces has become a trusted favorite for everything from home to travel whole bunch of of everyday essentials Make your summer wardrobe easier Go to quQininces dot com slash check for free shipping on your order, three hundred and sixty five day returns. now available in Canada as well That's Qu NcEot com slash chuck for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns Quintince d. com slash chuck Hello there and welcome to the Thursday episode of the Chuck Todcast. And you know, it seems to me that I need to let you know every day of what my goal is and what I'm doing here. And let me just put it simply I'm just trying to explain politics to the rest of us There's a lot of left wing content and right wing content, anti Trump content, pro Trump content I'm just here trying to explain politics to the rest of us. And so if that's what you're looking for, understand What is and understand what should be U and that was always the goal of what I'm trying to do every episode, but hey There's nothing like a little repetition to remind you what we're up to here. So that's what it is. Welcome to the Chuck T cast politics for the rest of us. And To get there, let me give you a quick little rundown of today's episode. My interview guest today is Debbie Cox Bolton, she is part of the New Deal Democrats. So what are they? This is the reincarnation of the old DLC, the centrist Democratic organization that sprung up in the late eighties There was the driving force behind the eventual presidency of that was the driving force behind the eventual presidency of Bill Clinton Um There's a point by two thousand eight DLC was being affiliate with the DLC was almost as bad as being affiliated with the so called establishment right now And you saw a lot of a rising group of sort of new progressive voters, new liberal voters back in the two thousand six and two thousand eight campaigns that in Democratic primaries made in DLC membership a net negative U And so we go through these ebs and flows and this is a reminder that the Democratic Party goes through these ebs and flows and right now, It is the base of the party that is on the rise. It is the base of the party that wants to be grabbing the leadership manel Um, And u Th centrist Democrats trying to figure out How How do they survive in this new era? U So that's the conversation On that front. I interviewed her before the last essentially eight days of Democratic Socialists of America success, both in New York City and Denver. So do keep that in mind when you listen to that conversation. What else is going on in the last seventy two hours, obvly we got some big Spreme Court rulings and we had another round of elections in Colorado and some important poll information that came out of the New York Times and my friends at AARP that I think serve as a good sort of benchmark, here we are sort of. Five months to go before election Day, we've got some benchmark ideas of where the electorate is at the moment and where the electorate could be headed And I also have my top five list It's a fun one this week. My five favorite fictional presidents I'll be very curious if you can guess what number one is. Let's just say I'm u It is a fictional president that looks more real all the time And then, of course, I've got your questions. But where am I going to begin? I'm going begin wherere what we're all doing this weekend Um And that is wanting to celebrate the fourth of July But let's be honest The celebration of America at two hundred fifty sucks And I know That is not the word you could argue that I'm supposed to use. I should come up with something a bit more mature than just simply saying, oh, this sucks Guess what Maybe I'm supposed to say the celebration is challenging or complicated or uneven. but the fact of the matter is no, it just simply sucks And it's not because America sucks. 's quite the opposite America two hundred fifty should be so much bigger than what we're. what we're sort of experiencing at the moment It should feel like one of those moments when the country pauses long enough to take itself Seriously worship itself not lie to itself wrap itself in bunting and pretend the story has always been noble and clean Take it seriously. This is an incredible experiment that's still going hundred and fifty years since the Declaration of Iepend. It's two hundred fifty years since this country announced a radical promise that it did not yet live up to and then spent the next two and a half centuries fighting over whether it really meant What that declaration said Hell of a story And yet as this fourth gets closer This celebration feels smaller and smaller And it really bothers me It's funny. it's sort of like, what angers me? It's shit like this that angers me Because this should have been an easy one, at least as these things go. Not easy because the story'on It is not simple. It's never been simple. It's fascinating, but it's easy because the country gave us the material a republic born in contradiction A founding document that declared equality while slavery still existed, a constitution that created a structure for self government. Millions of people outside the circle of full citizenship a nation that has been visionary and hypocritical Cruel and generous, exclusionary and expansive self satisfied and self correcting It's not a boring story Certainly not a weak story Qintessential story great story. And I wish that were the story we were telling right now Because I do not believe America is disappointing believe exactly the opposite. The American experiment is one of the most remarkable achievements in the history of self governance. It is hard to govern a large country. It is harder to govern a large diverse country And it is really hard to gover a multi ethnic democracy People have the right to disagree with each other. suue each other. organize against each other vote each other out of power and still somehow remain part of the same constitutional system. We should not undersell this We spend a lot of time looking at what we do not have or what we might lose. or where the country has failed I do that all the time In politics, that is usually where the action is But every once in a while it is worth stepping back and saying the obvious thing. When America's build is extraordinary. And it is also much younger than we pretend The country is two hundred and fifty years old The version of America that Founders created is only actually about sixty years old Because if we are being honest, the modern version begins with the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Acts of sixty four and sixty five Before that, yes, we had democratic forms. We had elections, we had parties, and we had courts, and we had all the language of democracy. But for millions of Americans, that promise was not real in any practical sense By the way, this does not diminish the country simply tells the truth about how we have made a more perfect union. The greatest phrase Oh the founding dock It's doing so much, right? That phrase And it matters so much. More perfect is not a claim of perfection It is an admission that the work is never Societies evolve and there's constantly opportunities to make a more perfect union. Now the words were there before the reality showed up. ight The ideals were there before the law ever caught up. The country had to be pushed, and forced, embarrassed, sometimes shamed. sometometimes inspired sometimes dragg closer to the thing it said it wanted to be That is the American story I wanted to see us celebrate and our two hundred fiftieth birthday That's some cartoon version of seventeen seventy six Not a history that is afraid of slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, immigration, civil rights, dissent, protest, war, corruption, or any of the uncomfortable chapters that make a story worth telling It's the uncomfortable parts that make a story interesting It's what makes it our story America is not remarkable because it was born perfect It is remarkable because it created enough room over time for people to keep fighting to make it And that is why the Supreme Court rejecting Donald Trump's attempt to restrict birthright citizenship in this moment matters a lot. I know some people want to focus on the folks who disagreed with the majority alwaysways going to folks that disagree with a majority in this democracy. What's important is what was agreed upon and a conservative court refusing to let this president narrow that inheritance is not some side issue partart of the story It is another reminder that the multi ethnic democracy We have built is more durable than its enemies want to believe And it is a reaffirmation that America is an idea, not an ethnicity And I'm sorry, anybody that does not believe America is an idea is not an American in mine Court struck down Trump's order in june thirti with the majority reaffirming birthright citizenship under that fourteenth Amendment. kind of is it a six three decision? Is it a five and a half to three and a half? This Justice Kavanaugh agreed in the result on statutory grounds, which is why the legal split is Probably more nuanced than than a headline alone suggests But it's proof that this country in this repepublic is durable. It's not indestructible But it is durable and the durability of an idea is no small thing So this anniversary should have been a moment to think seriously about the country, to celebrate it but also to understand it a little civics education, right? And we failed at that too to tell the story of a repepublic that has been all of these things all at once, visionary and epocritical Brutal and generous exclusionary and expansive arrogance and self correcting That's not anti American. That is the only kind of patriotism that makes sense to me And instead, Here we are And I do not think there's any way to avoid the obvious reason this anniversary feels so much smaller than it should be Donald Trump has made the country's birthday about Dald Did we all see this coming? Yes We did Most of us did but it didn't doesn't make it Any left It's not the only thing that is wrong with this moment. There's other things that are wrong, but this is the defining thing. Donald Trump has ruined the American brand and the American birthday celebration The country had a bipartisan congressionally created American two hundred and fifty effort you know, years ago in the in the planning America two hundred fifty, the organization describes itself as a bipartisan initiative for the two hundred fiftieth anniversary at the US semi quinentennial Commission was created by Congress in twenty sixteen to lead this nationwide commemoration There were supposed to be state and local events, historians, civics groups, schools, museums, cities and towns, all capable of telling their own piece of the great American story. It could have been broth It might have been a little messy Might have even been a little bland at times, but that would have been fine because sometimes bland is the point Sometimes bland is how you make room for everybody. Maybe a little bit hokey and bland, right But that's okay. you were you're trying to widen the atmosphere aperture here. C couldn't do it. You couldn'tave it alone He created his own version of the celebration First, he created this cast force and celebrating America's two fiftieth birthday with Freedom two hundred fifty President is chair, the vice President is vice chair. and it competed and overshadowed the congressionally created taxpayer funded America two hundred fifty effort Trump just took it all over. he staged his own little UFC fight onn the White House lawn A literal cage gets erected or a bouncy house that looks like a cage gets erected in the backyard on his birthday. And it was supposed to also be about the two hundred fiftieth birthday What's there to even add on this, right? The image does the work. There's a cage on the White House lawn A national birthday turned into his own personal political rallying. celebration of the country made to orbit one This is why So many people are opting out This is why so many polls have shown how uninspired people feel at this moment And this is the part that Trump's supporters refuse to take responsibility for They want to say that Democrats are being petty or the left is pouting, or Trump's critics just refuse to feel patriotic while he is president Well, number one, the beauty of this country is that you get to feel whatever the hell you want First Amendment right? There's no law that says you have to love America every hour of every day. There's no requirement that we all feel proud at the same moments or for the same reason What made me proud as American may not have made you proud to be an American at a given point Some people feel patriotic when they see military power Some feel it when they see protests. Some feel it when they watch fireworks on the fourth of July Some feel it watching a naturalization ceremony One of the most moving things I've ever attended Some feel it when the country honors the founders Some feel it when the country finally tells the truth. about the people the founders excluded This is not a defect in America. It's what makes us different from every other frrein country on this planet This is the feature of this country president who understood the country would understand that He would understand that his job at a moment like this is not to force everybody into his version of patriotism. His job is to make room for other people's patriotism too. But Trump canot do that He can't even fake it Bacon Talk about the ultimate insult to all of us as Americans. He always thinks everyone else should accommodate He never thinks he should accommodate anyone else Allies are not really there for us anymore. And that is a real problem when the job is to lead a country where half the people did not vote for you once did not support you and may never support you They are no less American than you are This is the thing that gets lost in a lot of the coverage of him Character is not some side issue It is about whether Someone is personally admous It's not about that either chararacter matters because there are moments when the country needs a president to rise above himself you have the character to just put anybody else before yourself? I'm not even asking you to do it all the time, just for small pair to time. just long enough to let the country have this moment. It's not your moment Donald Trump. You selfish guy, you But he couldn't do He turns participation into endorsement He turns every handshake into a trophy He turns this natural ritual into some branding opportunity The self enrichment is just disgusting I mean, you want to know why JD Vance now says that Nixon no longer, you know would be a ten hour story.'s because the corruption taking place and the administration he's serving in totally overshadows anything Nixon attempted to do. And then we're all supposed to pretend the people who stay away are the ones being divisive Please this is so backwards. If you make every shared space feel like your personal property You should not be surprised when people stop showing up The great American state fair on the National Ball could have been amazing. could have been EpCot comes to the comes to DC Instead, it became another example of the problem A patriotic showcase that many people could not quite separate from the man who had seized it There's a reason there are sparse crowds withdrawn performers States declining to send delegations accusations of partisanship and Gif around everything Freedom two hundred fifty as an organization is touched And what makes this especially frustrating is that these big anniversaries almost never You know, we don't have a lot of them and ironically Big anniversary moments have come at some really inopportune times. And maybe that's the lesson we need to take away from this Maybe anniversaries are less like celebrations and more like mirrors one hundred The country was about to abandon reconstruction We were on the edge of one of the worst retreats from equality in American history The eighteen seventy six romise one of the worst things we have done country's hist That was just after we turned a hundredunter at one hundred and fifty twenty six, the country was still living with the stench of teeapot Dome and the corruption of the harding era, which at the time was probably the worst payer grift we've seen yet two hundred, the country was still coming out of Vietnam Watergate, Nixon, and a profound loss of trusted government. So here we are the two hundred fifty, we have this Maybe that isn't an accident Maybe the big round numbers force us to look at ourselves Sometimes we do not like what we see I do not like what I see right now I do not like that we had a chance to celebrate the country in a serious way. and are instead watching this president cheapen it I do not like that younger Americans are being taught that this is normal that natural rituals are just campaign events with better fireworks I do not like that a country with this much to celebrate has a leader who cannot share the stage country he leads And I should be clear about something. I'm not mad at the voters. Voters make choices for all kinds of reasons. Some are wise, some are not. That's demracy I'm mad at the leader I'm mad that someone handed this responsibility keeps showing he does not understand the story he's supposed to be helping this country tell Trump does not see himself as one president in a long constitutional chain that begins with George Washingon He sees himself as the exception to this change. He treats the presidency as if it begins a new book instead of being one chapter in a very old, very messy, very consequential That is not patriotism Patriotism is not being afraid of history It is not pretending the country was perfect in seventeen seventy six. It is not acting as if the only way to love America is to sand off every rough edge and call the result pride I love the American story because it is so complicated. I love it because this country keeps producing people who force it to become better than it was I love it because the Constitution gives us A way to argue and repair and restrain power and expand liberty Keep going when we get it wrong And we have gotten plenty wrong s part of the story too But I remain an optimist about America. I really do I think it is possible that someday we will look back on the Trump era and be grateful for some of what it exposed grrateful for the damage or for the cruelty or for the corruption But for the clarity He has shown us what needs fixing been an MRI He has shown us how fragile norms are He has shown us how much depends on restraint institutions, character He has shown us what happens when a president does not see the country as something larger than himself And maybe that is the lesson of America two hundred fifty. That the celebration we deserve in some ways, Donald Trump's doing all of us a favor by selfishly trying to Steal this anniversary from us We now see who he really is So no, it's not the celebration we deserve, it's not the one we could We get a mirror And the mirror is telling us something The country is a bigger Daldrump It is bigger than any president obbviously bigger than any political party And there's no one definition of patriotism, but it still needs leaders who understand that It still needs citizens who insist on And it still needs people willing to say that the national star All of us, not just whoever happens to hold power at anywone America at two hundred fifty may be a lost opportunity Donald Trump has absolutely sullied the brand of Amer. But America two hundred seventy five does not have to be Maybe by then we will want to make up for what we miss. in this in thish in this anniversary Maybe by then we're going to remember how to celebrate the country without making the celebration feel like an endorsement of one man or one political movement Maybe by then we will have learned again that the American story is the most powerful when it is told honestly, We make other countries behave better when we own up to our mistake That story is still the most important For some people, the central text in their lives is religious, and I respect for me The Constitution has always carried that kind of weight. So that's why I'm so angry. feel betrayed I do. I feel betrayed as an American by him. Constitution is not perfect But it gives us a way to keep going It ises a structure for disagreement It gives us a method for repair It gives us the possibility of becoming better without pretending we were always good. It makes some of the same promises that some religious texts do And this is why I'm so pissed off Not because I love the country less because I love the idea of America enough to resent seeing it cheapened by this man America deserve better at two hundred fifty Someday I believe It will get better Let's thnd your hands. Don't let him steal your patriotism. You don't have to pay attention to anything he does on the fourourth of July belongs to you This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you by chapter. Now almost everything you hear about Medicare is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere And you're skeptical of that. As you should be. I get it I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now Over exactly this, companies that branded themselves as unbiased while allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most as some sort of broker So if your default is to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it. I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. 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New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jery. mininimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. Full terms and wagering requirements at horseshoe onnlinecasino dot com slash promos If you are someone you know is a gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler This is Keon Miller from OK Storyime So I have a furry friend named Mia She's literally bundle of joy and love who can never get enough pets, cuddles and attention. To me? She's more than a pet, she's practically family And I love my pets Part of that love is what's best for them. And for my dog, that includes the best diet At Jinx, all dogs deserve to eat well. Jinx has premium all natural food, toppers, and treats to transform your dog's health and happiness no matter your dog's size or age Jinx's number one ingredient is high quality protein like Atlantic salmon, cage free chicken, grass fed beef, and lamb to support strong muscles and heart health. Jinx never has any fillers like corn, wheat, or soy. For meia, I get her the mini biscuits, meal toppers, kibble, the kibble sauce, and ready meals. But for her, I think she loves the mini biscuits the most, just because she loves the taste and not to mention The sound of the crrch. Jinx offers plenty of healthy and fun options for your dog Shop at national retailers like Walmart, Petsmart, Chhewy or Amazon. Hey, it's Ry Reynold here from MitMobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited preremium wireless for fifteen dollarars a month is back So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollars bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at midmobile dot com slash switch Upront payment forty five dollars for months ninety dollars for six mons or one hundred ninety dollars forelveth, reired fifteen dollars for a month equival to teaxas beess extra. initial term only greater than fifty gigabytes slow netork busy t Doar that That's my business hard to work But what you don't hear is the hard work of optimum business secure fiber interternet Send her out. For sixty five dollars a month, I get Bus F Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected interternet on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five to optimum or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms apply. See optimum dot com slash business for details All right with that. I want to go to a few things. I've done some short form videos on a few things, but I want to talk a little bit about a few of the headlines that we've had over the last three or four days. One, let me tackle the court real quick, because I will say this, I think between the birthright citizenship case, the campaign finance case in the Eging Carrool case, right Here's one thing that you cannot say. This is not a Trump court. Okay It is a conservative court. but it is not a Trump court. And that is an important distinction I think some of the coverage of the court, you know, this is where You know, This is why I'm doing what I'm doing, right? I don't, you know, I have no desire to ever go back to this the world of legacy media because I just don't think I just think that time has come and gone, not in just my career, I think for legacy media in general But you know, there's there's this, you know, binary way that the court gets covered And It's complicated. It's ironic, by the way, that the Trumpiest justices two that he never appointed, right? The Trumpiest justices or two that were appointed by H W. Bush and George W. Bush that in your establishment hat and and st it, right Um, But you see that that the This is This is a there is a majority conservative, no doubt There are partisans on this court But the court itself has not become partisan And that's important Um I will say this the look, the campaign finance decision is You know, this court has been consistent on money, so it didn't surprise me But it shouldn't be lost on anybody. And this is where I think why so many in the left believe the court just simply is pro Republicans because two of their biggest decisions have basically bailed Republicans out here in the midtermss decision one was the gutting of the Voting Rights Act that essentially greenlit, you know, and it's not lost on me. It seems as if this Supreme Court will green lightight any Republican remap but seems to not have the same enthusiasm for greenlining democratic remaps And yes, there were technical distinctions and you can sit here and say that they are, you know, following the letter of the law, they just seem to find lets The letters seem to be easier to find in red states than they do in the blue states. Um But it's an important, right? It is It is down the number of swing seats. and then this decision on campaign finance. And why is it such a bailout of the Republican Party in a moment that they needed a bailout because what it does is it allows their big donors to have their money go farther. Let me explain. So right now when you purchase a television ad campaign the candidate trying to purchase that ad time has to be sold that at time at the lowest R. There is a special political rightate, right? They're not allowed to gouge that Outside groups have to pay the same rate that Colgate pays or that prorogressive insurance pays. They got to pay the higher rate And so what the court said is the party money now is that that the for the national party. So this is just the RNC, NRSC, NRCC, right? The National Party commommittee, the Senate commommittee and the House commommittee and the DNC, the DSEC and the DRpleC same construction there, the National Party that they can now coordinate their spending and the money that is spent by the National Party to help a specific race It can be used by the lowest ad rate possible This is why this matters, right? There used to be this distinction where candidate raised dollars We're given the discount. Party committee dollars or independent expenditure committee dollars. that are essentially where they can raise unlimited funds or Huge six, seven and eight figure checks Those Um, Those used to have to pay at a higher rate Well, now that you could pay that lower rate, Well Democrats are better at raising small dollar contributions than Republicans are these days. Bue is this is why Republicans have targeted A Bue. It's been an incredible organizing tool to sort of takeake grassroots money and move it smartly The Republicans have tried to come up with a competitor and win red to try to do the same, but they just really have a small donor problem. But on the six figure and seven figure checks, there are more Republican six and seven figure donors than there are And Democratic donors in that The super big donors, both parties have about the same, but it's sort of this upper middle class donor, the person that can write the million dollar check, but that can't write the ten million dollar check. R? Republicans and Democrats have the same amount of people that can write the ten, fifteen, and twenty five million dollars But where the Republicans dominated is they have a hell of a lot more people that will write the five hundred two million dollar checks compared to the Democrats. And that's where this becomes a huge asset. So the point is This is a huge financial asset for, particularly for House Republicans But if you just look at it, right, the national Republican Party committees and their're big donors, they they they're able to, you know, I think, this will financially bring Republicans basically on par and probably means that Republicans will end up outspending the Democrats. The last couple national cycles Democrats have been able to outspend Republicans out advertise Republicans because they've had this advantage of buying lower advertising rates using dollars to buy lower advertising rates. Now the Republicans are able to essentially do the same thing. So it does This is a huge help. in a midterm cycle where all the enthusiasms on Team Blue And this is an attempt to mitigate it. So It's a huge deal But you can' sit here and say the same court that does this But then also said that Egene Carrool had to be paid and also about birthright citizenship. So My point is it's a conservative court And this has been, you know, that is fact It is not a Trump court And we should be relieved and thankful that it is not If there is one thing that this court is consistent about by the way And I think another reason why birthright citizenship, if you care about this issue, you need to Don't assume this is The thing you need to be concerned about is what this court What? Well this court will show deference to Congress if they are explicit in what they want, right? If you want to prevent the firing of some of these independent, you need to be more explicit in exactly what the what the regulatory body should do, what happens when certain people end up being fired by the president? How does the replacement process work? right? I think a good lesson's been learned in the Director of National intntelligence and how the statute was very specific Congress wants to protect the independent regulators at the SEC, the FTC, the FCC, FEC, and at the Fed I think it's clear that Congress needs to be more explicit and exactly how it wants this regulatory body to function how vacancies are supposed to be filled. gets to fill it, what are the qualifications? And it's clear to me that if you add more on the on the side of the statute You make it harder the for the courts to simply default to the executive authority. And that's what this court's going to going to do All right. They're going to continue to default to the executive unless there's explicit legislative language here that's put into the statute. So Um I think you're going to see a conservative effort to try to restrict some part of birthright citizenship Maybe it's birth tourism or something like that And the courts may be more open to something like this, but it's going to have to come from the legislative branch But that to me is the big lesson that policymakers should take away from this court that if you want to protect some of the regulatory powers of these quasi independent agencies in the executive branch You got to be more explicit. I know this sounds a little wonky, but I think that this is the lesson and this is what we're going to find out, right? Until Congress is a functional body cares about its independence again We're going to continue to have these sort of problems between the executive and the judiciary because the way Congress has abdicated its its responsibilities Now a quick little thought on what happened in Colorado. And I think the question is Are we seeing right the is this H the DSA movement broken through coasts into the heartland And I just simply think TVD All right, Denver is a, I think a small sample size I'll go back to what I said before. The real test for the DSA movement and DSA adjacent movement and the justice Democrats is going to be Michigan and frankly, the real test isn't Michigan on prrimary day with Abduul al Sayed. It is whether if he's the nominineating whether he can win the general And that is that is that is going to be the big I think the big judgment on that front, but I think you can't discuss the success of the DSA candidate in Denver on Tuesday night and ignore What also happened with John Hickenlooper where he got held under sixty percent by somebody had spent nine to one and the loss by Michael Bennett. in the guubernatorial primary to theitt Atorney General Pil Weiser U the if there was a common threat between Um The the G get race, the gov race. and the and the Senate race. It was all three sort of Washington figures here because obviously Bennet wasn't the incumbent, but he kind of he kind of ended up being treated as the incumbent Um the the the critique that seemed to hit that was hardest for them to push back on was this idea that, hey, you're part of the system that created this mess and you have not done enough about it. In fact, you Michael Bennett even voted to confirm a Trump cabinet secretary. You, John Hicken Looper, even confirmed. And this is what we saw with the Tea Party early on where where where a firing offense would be something like that, where that used to be not considered a fireable offense, sort of the confirmation of Cabinet secretaries, which is just kind of like perfunctory to many people When that starts right. you saw the right would just get mad that they even by by by confirming in Obama cabinet official you've given you've accepted the premise that he can govern or whatever it is. and I think there's this anger on the left that feels very similar to that we saw that sort of your anger in the right and If you're fighting Trump, you need to be fighting him all the time can't ever give an inch and what seemed to unify and what hit all three of those races is was was If you if you just want You need to get caught fighting is what it was and to say I mean, you know, I saw somebody note with these New York Times polls that show that the, you know, the candidate seems to be the safest is Roy Cooper. and needs to be more notice of how did Roy Cooper do this? Well, I've got a simple answer Roy Cooper avoided a primary. And you know, we're in a moment right now J just like we saw it's like how Glen Youuncin win in Virginia? mean he didn't have a real primer. We're in a moment right now where this is a restless, these are restless electorates The base of the Republican Party distrusts its establishment, the base of the Democratic Party basically looks at the second election in Trump and says, okay, this is now a reflection on you guys You guys had a chance to eradicate them and you failed anybody associated with the Biden era in twenty four. Let this be a lesson to Pete Buttigge. Let this be a lesson to anybody that Kamala Harris If your're, if you've got Fingerprints in the Biden era There're going to be voters are saying you didn't do enough to stop Trump the first time. Why should we trust you with power this time That may be what we're hearing out of here And this is why I'm not convinced the Republicans are going to easily be able to say, hey, look, the Democrats are going crazy left U I think it's something that could that they can weaponize for a presidential race. I think it's a little harder to weaponize in different races. In fact, the New York Times polling shows me that I think Iowa was one of those places where you see the numbers where people say, yeah, I think the national partarty is too liberal, but I don't believe that of my nominee in my state, right? And Iowa, like Turk does better than the national brand. And it's almost consistent across the board. So the fact that voters see a distinction between their candidate and the national brand, I think tells you that this is going to be I think harder I think it's I'm not as convinced that DSA is a is full baggage yet in some of these races, especially when you have an unpopular president in all this. I'm not saying it eventually isn't problematic And I think it becomes, you know The real question is what happens Yeah You know, there's sort of to me, there's three outcomes. that will determine this sort of civil war that's perhaps going to take place inside the Democratic Party There's sort of three outcomes that I think Um depending on what happens will trigger different types of fights So Democrats win both the house and the Senate. I don't think you know, I think our team Jeffreys is going to have a fairly smooth path to the speakership. I don't think you will see justice Democrats or DSA adjacent Democrats or DSAers who look like they're going to be a caucus of somewhere between twelve and twelve and twenty, right? U twenty on the high end sort of ten to twelve on the low end. Um You know, if Democrats are picking up more seats than than the entire size of the Justice Democrats DSA caucus thenen he should have nothing to worry about But if Democrats win the House, but don't win the Senate That's where things I think get hinky for a knocam Jeffrees and that vote for speaker. because I do think a failure to win the Senate. you're going to have finger pointing going both ways, right? You're going have the establishment pointing to the to the socialists and the progressives and saying, it's your fault we didn't pick up the Senate. and you're going to have this the left wing, the socialist progressives saying, hey, weve picked up the house. You guys suck. Schumer sucks. That's the reason. And in fact, we need to put some more guardrails on Jeffries because we don't trust Jeffries down the road. So That's a scenario where the split decision, right, I think totally sets You know Then of course, there's a scenario where the where nobody wins anything, right? Where the Republicans hold both the House and the Senate That's Katie bart of the door. That becomes existential crisis and it's like everybody could get could get thrown out. But That is. I think that's the scenario we're seeing. Look Ultimately It's clear Democratic voters are fired up about fighting Trump The question is what can get these voters to fifty percent plus one in a general election Um Resistance to Trump has not been enough to win over these voters or if it would, you would, you know, there wouldn't be a second Trump term. Um Is it affordability? Is it corruption Every day, Trump makes it a lot easier for Democrats to make their case, right? And that's probably the best ass that they got it going is that Donald Trump refuses to retreat. In fact The fact that he wants to nationalize his elections and have a national convention in September promise you, I think James Talorico and others would help fund this convention to make sure Please, Republicans, go ahead, get closer to Trump, nationalize this election a nationalized election rible for the party in power And I don't care where you go right? That is exactly You make this a referendum on Trump promise you. I know what that result's going to be. and him leaning into this Inention, I get their thinking They're thinking is well, they've got to find they've got to find a way to motivate the Trump voter to show up to the midtermss. becausecause they this may simply be an energy turnout contest That's true in a few states That's not necessarily true in some other states. Now again, I get I think the Republican line of thinking on this and I get to it more later in this show when I talk about the potential for an elito retirement. is whatever it takes for them to get that presidential voter to show up in a midterm So this is the whole idea of the Trump experiment that someow it's going to get maggag I think that that u You know, it's like put it this way If you sign Justin Verlander, do you think you got Justin Verlander from fifteen years ago or do you have a version of Justin Verlander who might have lost his fastball I think Donald Trumps lost his fastball, so I don't know if he can motivate the way people think he So we shall see. So anyway, I'm going look, I really wanted to spend more time. I'm stewing. I'm angry. I'm really just I'm sorry This president screwed up an opportunity that could have been an incredible educational experiment experience, all of these things It's so depressing U because it was a real opportunity And he ruined it. And he's the reason why we have we're all feeling kind of disappointed and how and how this is all turned out. This should be a better party This should be a better celebration but we just We have the wrong person in charge. He just can't doesn't know what it's like. He doesn't know what it's like to be in a With that taking a break and we've come back to my conversation on The, um Centrist wing of the Democratic Party how they plan to deal with the rising progressing w of the Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. mininimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. Full terms and wagering requirements at horseshoe onnlinecasino dot com slash promos If you were someone you know is a gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler is Ke on Miller from OK Storyime So I have a furry friend named Mia too me She's more than a pet, she's practically family Part of that love is what's best for them And for my dog, that includes the best diet. At Jinx, all dogs deserve to eat well. Jinx has premium all natural foods to transform your dog's health and happiness no matter your dog's size or age. Jinx never has any fillers like corn, wheat, or soy. For Mia, she loves the mini biscuits the most. Jinx offers plenty of healthy and fun options for your dog. Shop at national retailers like Walmart, Petmart, Chheewy, or Amazon Do that That's my business hard at work. What you don't hear is the hard work of optimum business secure fiber interternet. Send her out. For sixty five dollars a month, I get businessusiness F Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected interternet on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five to optimum or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms apply. See optimumot com slash business for details Real value shows up in reliability, you don't have to second guess. likeike a set of Firestone All season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road. Sason after season. Firestone All season tires. For durability, you can count on just like people Count on you Firestone, always dependable since nineteen hundred Well onene of the things that I would assume most of you now know when it comes to my thought put together is that they're coalitions. There is no, in theory, I think both the Democratic coalition and the Republican coalition have two or three political parties underneath it if we were a parliamentary system And what that means right now inside the Democratic Party is that there is a Call it a fight, call it a debate, you know, about the direction of where the party should go. You have progressives very loudly wanting to shift the party in one direction. and then you've got what Uh was in the nineties called the DLC U the Bill Clinton wing of the party, maybe the Blue Dogs, however you want to call it, the sort of center left U, And one could argue they the center left has suffered from notot having a name that everybody is comfortable with that doesn't sound like it's a pejorative when you things like that. Well My guest today is Debbie Cox Bolton. She is the head of New Dem leaders, which bills itself as a center left group Um and trying to see if they can come up with the agenda that can keep a majority coalition together. Debbie, welcome to the podcast Thanks so much for having me. Areciate. Let me start with that branding issue because we a lot of times, you know, when I'm on on the air doing election coverage, you know, we'll talk about a Democratic primary and it's the progressive candidate versus But sometimes is it mainstream? Well, that can be offensive to people in progressive bo,kay, we're mainstream too. Is it legacy, Well, that sounds like the little derogatory, right? whichich is uh pragmatic, Well, sometimes those in the center left saying, this is not about Pragma, we're not compromising. this is a belief system, which is I feel like the center left doesn't have a good brand yet. like the one moniker that doesn't feel like there's a hidden pejorative in how you describe the center left Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think that a lot of the words that people think of now as dirty by compromise and we're calling the collaboration now. Collaboration I've using language like cross partartisan. We don't say bipartisan anymore. Yeah ye. I take your point. I mean, if I have to say one thing about New deeal leaders and and other folks in our kind of center left ecosystem I'd call it to get shit done Democrats, to be honest with you. And if you think about some of the governors that kind of govern in that way, a lot of whom are being about for maybe presidential twenty eight. a lot of them, I think fall under that category whether it's Josh Shapiro, or Andy Bashir or Gretchen and Whitmare kind of to fix the roads, make government work for people. I think that's really If I had to if I would want someone to think about this center left and what would that mean, I would be very happy if that's what they thought about. You know, it's interesting, governors are always been sort of the place that you know, whether when the Republican Party is trying to present itself as reformers, they'll point to governors, when the Democratic Party wants to say, hey, we've got reformers. point to governors. And obviously there's a lot more leeway you get as a governor. U ideologically and there's an expectation of getting stuff done that allows you to sort of get away with compromising that maybe as a legislature, legislator, you don't have that luxury on this front Um, I mean, it because it seems to be it's always the case that the governors are where you at least see stuff happen Yeah. I mean, so with New Deal, we are a group of Carefully chosen, center left, pragmatic, whatever we want to want to call it state and local elected officials below the level of governor. So a lot of our folks have risen up. We three governors now who came through New Deal. But I would also add to what you just said is mayors and county officials, kind of those executive branch folks and the pipeline of those people who are having to fix the potholes or bounce the budget in a way that legislative bodies often, as you say kind You know, you can get a win by just scoring a political point. You don't actually have to deliver. That is a distinction, obviously. We still have we have a lot of state legislators that we work with. They're doing great things too. But there is a difference when you have to actually when the buck stops here, if you will, with some of the executives What it look What you just described to me sounds like the old DLC Democratic Leadership council, which was started in the mid eighties, sort of after Mondeo when the sort of old labor liberalism was seen as sort of a tired u a tired organizing A messaging outlet for the Democrats and those that were trying to sort of shift the party to not being so antagonistic towards business back in the day. That would be I would argue the sort of the what I think Alpham would agree with that description. He was the founder of the DLC What What's different and what's the same about what you're doing Yeah, yeah. So I spent fifteen years at the DLC and was our Chief of staff at one point. and so I'm quite familiar. And I mean, look, I really grew up there to be honest with you. so I think that there are some things that I feel like are common DNA that I really learned lessons there is the most of which was you've know, we've got to modernize progressive politics for the twenty first century. If nothing else. was you can't stay still, that you've got to have bold experimentation, that you've got to stick true to your values. I think that some of the DLC words like responsibility, opportunity and community still ring really true But that, you know, you've got to be willing to do things differently for different ages. You also have to be willing to say when something's not working and say, that was great. We tried that, you know, we hadt you know, vision for why that might work. So I think there's a lot of that DNA in New Deal. I'd also say that as Democrats who believe that government do good things, we have a special responsibility to make it work well as Democrats. And I think that's another piece that sometimes we don't always focus on across the party lines is how do we actually make sure the government is delivering resultves? So some of those things there's definitely some similarities there in our outlook, if you will. I think a big difference between DLC and New Deal is and you and we were joking up before we came on that a lot of the new dealiers that we work with that are you know in their twenties or thirties might not even know what the DLC is. So this is not, you know, some kind of veiled new DLC, but it does charter when the you know when the uh when the website Daily Cast first came up and running I think their North star was ing anybody that had ever been a member of the DLC and ostracizing them from the Democratic coalition. Yeah. I think that's right. I think that that's right. And the thing that I love about the New leaders that we work with, they don't always feel like they have to choose. You kind of make that you insinuated that when you're talking about governors. You know, they don't feel like we do in Washington sometimes that we have to loudly declare ourselves which part of the party we're on. They can build these kind of broad coalitions You know the other thing that I would just say that is very unique about New Dealand and it iss kind of our North Star is that we go out and choose elected officials to be part of New Deal. So have a very we're very ticky about a twenty percent acceptance rate of people who are nominated and then joined. And we're looking for really the most exceptional, pragmatic, effective, and rising state and local elected officials, And we feel like our job is to help them govern effectively because why I said? Because we think that that is actually the best politics. If you govern well, you'll rise up the ranks and change the trajectory of our party in our country. But also that we give them a platform. I feel like if New deeal leaders were speaking for the Democratic Party, there'd be a lot of people who currently are like, I'm not sure that's my Democratic Party would say That sounds right. That doesn't sound crazy. I feel like that that person' speaking to me. So we try to do both things, help them govern and then give them a platform for their voices. So you're not incubating people to run for office. You're trying to find them after they've been elected correct, which is a really unique space for us. There's a lot of people who are focused on elections, which is super important and the campaign side of things. we work on the governing side of the house. And my thought, again, I think that our kind of DNA is that if We pick people who can govern well when they are city council and then go to mayor and then go to governor, that this pipeline will serve us well. and it's worked. We've been doing this for fifteen years. We have now three governors, Josh Shapiro, Josh Stein, and Matt Meer, who were New Deal leaders. Pete Buttigjge, obviously, probably the most famous New Deal alum, and nineteen members of Congress who started out as city council members or state legislators who are now three in the US Senate and sixty in the US House. So the pipeline over fifteen years has really shown itself to be to be vibrant and important. And I would say that, you know, the other thing is we're not out there trying to just to tell them they should do. I think a lot of you two things. One is people who are looking at elections kind of think that we'll just elect the right people and then that will be it. And to me it's like that's just people run for office they can do something. So who's there to help them once they get into office, to share and spread good ideas, to have those kind of skill development things they need. So we would never do that with the CEO. and these are most These are people who are affecting our daily lives probably more than the average CEO. So who's helping them once they get elected? And then secondly, you know, this idea that again, as they're rising up the ranks, that will change kind of the whole brandom Democratic Party, and we think that that's really important Well, this is gets it to look, this is a fight. For control of the brand, it feels like as much as anything, right? And the fact of the mat and look, I we began our discussion offline The Pew center put out its's semiiannual. They've done this nine times in forty years. So I guess they do it about every three or four years A typology report trying to c basically saying, Hey, Americans don't fit easily into two categories. They actually fit into like nine, right Um, and Here's what your challenge is from the place you come from And I think where your were those that are more empathetic and sympathetic to what you're preaching come from is that byy nature, it's not allowed of the Democratic coalition And in fact, when you You know, I always say they You know I prefer moderate in temperament. That doesn't mean I prefer that in my ideological politics, but I think that confuse moderation sometimes between temperament and compromise. And The loudest voices Online and the dominant conversation in the left and the right is dominated by those that are online. And according to Pew two groups that are the most online are these two loud basasses. It's basically MAGa and and the progressives And they're super wired dictating the conversation And it's drowning out what is a majority of everybody else. You know, if they're in the fifteen yard lines Everybody else is somewhere in the middle and they don't like the loudness, but they can't break through Yeah, C you break can you be a radical moderate? Can you be a PT Barnum and moderate, right? Yeah. I like that actually we want to be the PT Barnum moderate I we have to be, right? I would say two things. One I completely agree with you that I think that I nothing frustrates me more than this idea that if you are Pragmatic or you know results oriented, you're somehow mushy the mushy middle concept. Mar Alexander complains about this at his memoir and he goes, just because I talk with the other side doesn't mean I'm not conservative anymore. Like like this is my belief system. I just know how the God star organization works. You know No exactly right. And I see on the Democratic side right now, you know, we hear this a lot, right? that you know what do Democrats want? They want to fighter? And I just absolutely reject the notion fighting equals only yelling louder. I just like reject that notion. Like what know your own polling shows it, it is one of those. I don't know how people simultaneously say they want a fighter who compromises. Right Exactly. I want a fighter and I want people by eighty percent want to you know people to work for. Sometimes the voters don't know everything that they want. they dont. But think I mean, I think what they want are people who are fighting for them, right? And so and that is a little bit different than just fighting for fighting's sake But the other point I wanted to make on your point about the online thing. I mean, I always get surprised when I'm reminded Like as a percentage of Democratic primary voters, I think I saw something from thirird way recently that post line daily or weekly is something crazy. donon't quote me, but twenty percent of Democratic primary voters are online, daily or provide ninety percent of the left wing content. Exactly. And this is the problem, right? So to try to remind candidates, to try and remind elected officials, to try to try to remind voters that those people who are the loudest do not, you know, just do not speak for the majority of people. And it's a problem, not just for our brand and which I agree with, but it's also a problem for our politics. I mean, basically like people are just tuning out you know, there's also something reccently about, you know, I think it was in New York Times about, you know, are you over the last five or ten years more likely or less likely to say something out loud, you know, if you're a moderate or a liberal and liberals have gotten more embolened and moderates are feeling less, you know, like they want to stick their head out because they're afraid it's going to get whacked off. And so, you know, that's that's a challenge again, not just for the brand, but for our politics. mean what other area of our life, do we not We have to, you know, always agree with people, right that you can, you know, I mean, that's not true with my husband, That's not true with my kids. That's not true with my coworkers. So I think we've got to get to a different politics where we can have those forums where you can have people model people disagreeing in kind of a you know, a more civil and, you know, constructed way. Look, I mean, I think we We all know this We all say we want this yet When given the opportunity, we don't take it Well, is that true or is it that and I'd be curious yeah to know what what you mean by that sense, but I also feel like it's also probably worth noting that it's not just online that I feel like these conffortt this is happening. I think this is also spilled out, not I mean, the media plays a hugely important role, but it is very much like with the clicks needed that it's easier to get the extremes fighting on TV. So it it's kind of everywhere. It's not just online.'s almost everywhere This gets it to the incentive structures, right? And that Yes. And this to me is another challenge for someone in your situation. and, you know I'm trying to help some folks who are trying to break through who are not a member of either party. We're trying to see if there's a voice for sort of like, are you tired of this partisanship? Can't we get pragmatic solutions? Yeah Yeah. You know, the hard part of it is Um, is that The system rewards sort of outlandish the system rewards. I mean, in some ways, the The more you're the main character of a story, it doesn't matter whether you're the villain or the hero If you're the main character Your brand equity is going to go up. I mean, we can we going have a long debate. This Grand Platinner situation is the most fascinating social experiment as far as I'm concerned. Is that the exact description we're going with? Okay. Well, I'm going to go with that as far as the left the Democrats are concerned. I think Yeah My greatest fear of a second Trump term was that it was going to change the left more than it was going to change the right And I do think we've seen this already and that the whole if you can't beat them, join them And I hear progressives all the time going, I want my own trump. U I want to I want to be able to run roughhot through the executive branch, the way he has And it's sort of like, well, wait a minute, I thought you guys were the party of institutions and the party of this. And And I have a feeling that are we in the middle of a realignment where the institutionalists are going to be between the center left and the center right? because what you described about your frustration with what's happening on the Democratic side is almost identical to what Paul Ryan would tell you is happening in the right. Yeah which is these loud voices are over consonsuming and those that are in the sort of Mitt Romney Wright are sometimes afraid to speak out. They'll get their head cut off , you know, all all of everything you said could apply easily to this group and some people on the left saying, yeah, it's those spineless people. And so those on the right say the same thing about the center left ends and you're like Try living in that space and then tell me what kind how spineless they are. Yeah. No, that might be the issue Yeah, no. Well, look, and I do think you're absolutely right, of course, the incentive structure and this idea that, you know, really the goal is to build a brand for yourself, you know, is a problem. I think it's more true at the federal level to, you know the state and local elected officials that I work with. I mean, I have I'm lucky P peopleople ask me all the time like, why do you keep doing this? They probably ask you this too. Like why are you stay want to keep talking about this? Why do you stay in this fight? And the truth is that I don't know that I would if I had not, if I wasn't working with state and local elected officials all over the country who despite who are running, not like Despite of what's happening but because of what's happening. They see this as almost like a public service to be in public life right now, to try to make a difference, to try to deliver results. And so, you know, your average mayor, you know, probably not, you know, the first person people think of when they're online, right? And so you know, they're out there really, they're working across the aisle. I mean, you know, we work with the folks in Alaska who have a bipartisan bowling league still. I mean there there are such bright spots out there about actually government working and what so my frustration goal a lot of the time is how do we, you know, bring those stories forward so that we're not only hearing about, you know, what we're talking about at the federal level. Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. 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Jinx never has any fillers like corn, wheat, or soy. For me, I get her the mini biscuits, meal toppers, kibble, the kibble sauce, and ready meals. But for her, I think she loves the mini biscuits the most just because she loves the taste and not to mention The sound of the Cutch. Jinx offers plenty of healthy and fun options for your dog Shop at national retailers like Walmart, Petmart, Chhewy or Amazon Do that That's my business hard to work But what you don't hear is the hard work of optimum business secure fiber interternet Send her out. for sixty five dollars a month, I get Bus F Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected internet, on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five to optimum or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms apply. See optimumot com slash business for details Real value shows up in reliability, you don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone all season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road. Season after season. Firestone All season tires. For durability, you can count on, just like people Count on you Firestone, always dependable since nineteen hundred Well, I mean, well let me, you know, which is look, I would argue the bases have hijacked political discourse. Yes. At the same time your folks can't win without their support Right. It's part of the coalition on the left Just like just like on the right, you know, Todd young and and and John Curtis can't win without the mega support. So you you find you're trying to find ways to to to get in some ways, the common ground is happening the attempts are happening more there than it is sort of between the the at the in the from the center left to the center right. And I don't It feels to me that the progressives aren't interested in in a coalition at the moment Well, and we're in primary season. so I think this is heightened, right? I mean, let's be clear you have to win a lot more than the Democratic left to win in the generals, right? So, you know, and tell this to my proressive friends all the time. I say the Democrat I said, you know, they're always complaining what it looks like, you know, conservatives and I said, yeah, they have a bigger base. They need fler moderates to get to fifty percent. Democrats need more moderates to get to fifty percent I'm sorry. it's a's issue. It isn't anything. It is have to win like sixty five, seventy percent of moderates to win, right? And so there's no other way to say this except to say, I mean, I understand again, we're in the primary fight and some of the you know and I also kindind of rejects that you know, there's been a little bit of a narrative that the left is, you know, dominating elections. and I'm not saying that they're not doing well in a lot of places, but I think it's been a mixed bag. I'm here in California, right? Javier Visera, Tom Syer, that one conveniently gets left off the list when people talk about this. So I think it's actually been a mixed bag, but you know but what we are going to see is in the general election, how the different candidates do in some of these tougher districts because just what we said, the math does not work unless you can't just win your left. You got to win into the center Well, it is interesting that you do have, I mean, I did a sort of halfway mark in the primaries or what is There's a distinction between Republican primary voters and Democratic primary voters this cycle. It is It does seem as if the perception of electability still matters a little bit more to the Democrats than it does the Republicans. R The Republicans are still They're still looking for disruptors and they'll they'll if give it if they think one can win, they'll they will gravitate. If they they don't think they win, they won't do it. likeike we saw that with Windsey Graam surviving. Yeah. They're looking for that versus I don't think the left has gotten that nihilistic yet I think that's right. And I think a proof point on that, I would even go back to the twenty five elections, right where you a lot of the thing was about know New York mayayor, Mandami winning. But if you looked at Mandami and Abigail Spamberger and Mikey Cheryll, they all ran off on affordability. They all ran incredibly aci disciplined race, unlike we did in twenty four on the issues that I think matter most to people and the cost of living specifically. Now, whether or not I agree with everything that the New York mayayor thought thinks that are the solutions to that I think that that is a kind of a proof point to you, which is like I think people know that we have to be at least talking about a broad set of issues that most people care about if we're going win elections. And that's a good thing So Let's talk about some substance here because the other thing that came comes through in this typology report from Hugh is that voters under fifty are the ones that want more the most change. Now there's different ways they've been cataloged into this and I don't The general sense is that thoseose that would like to see more disruption, more experimentation or younger Right? It's older voters that are looking for the stability to looking for the civility. Right looking for the things that perhaps you and I kind of miss about about our politics. Yeah. And I'm mindful of that. Hey, you know,mm I'm, you know, that's there's a reason they call it over the hill, right? I'd like to think I just went over the hill, but it's still I know I'm on the other side of it. Yeah. And You know, can you, can you Is there such thing as pragmatic disruption Absolutely. I mean, let's say you know, let's talk about one in particular. I'm livid that we let Trump have Doge. Now Doge was a disaster. Do was a Doge was you know a disguised for burning the house down and not making government work. But you know, since we're talking age, we're both old enough to remember Al Gore's reinventing government effort, which was squarely a democratic effort, which is to say, if we think government should work, we should make it work better.'s not when it's not working It's broken afterstray exactly That was the moment. Yeah. Exactly. And so we should have we should have owned this. We should have come out and said, lookook, there are, you know government is not delivering. How are we going to, you know, reform it? Let's make it smaller, let's make it, you know, more effective. And yet we lost that you know, fight because we were not willing to, u be disruptors. And so I think that's just one example, but I think Democrats who believe in government actually like have a bigger respibility be disruptors right now because we Republicans don't want government to work. It just self reinforces the whole argument that it is's not working, right? And so I think Democrats have this special responsibility to actually deliver. And it's not just our politics and we know this, but I mean, this is right this is hand in glove with our democracy. This is I mean, you know, not hand in glove with how people feel about the next two hundred fifty years of America. So people do not have I'm not poing just enough to say that like we can know I don't want to think we should go back. And I also think that like restoring trust in government is I believe that, but that's a little bit know amorphous and what does that mean? But I do think that there are things that we can do to make people not feel like government is actively working against them. Even little things every day, whyy does it take so long on the phone? Why do I have to do another set of doctor know forms when I just did them? I mean, all those things We've got to focus on those things Customer service, treat the voters like their customers. Treat the taxpayers like their're customers. Yeah. because they are to some extent, right? They a hundred percent are. They are customers. they pay for it. That's right They expect the services and you know, it's funny. It's like U I'm still to this day, you know, I'll get really upset if my county doesn't, you know, trash or whatever like they're supposed to And then when they when you call and they do it within a day, you're like, wow, that's pretty good. Like I'm always like, you know, that's I'm sure it's pain in the pain in the took us to try to figure out everybody that was missed and go out and do it. But, you know it's a pretty high functioning government in Arlington County and they kind of also know that Arlington County has a bunch of super voters in it. And if they do mess up, they will get like ousted. like it's one of those where it's responsive because they should be but because they actually know Yeahah, this is My constituents or lawyers, they'll somehow come after me if I get this wrong. O you'll see in the grocery store line and remind them. Yeah. and local. Yeah. It does, like local politics understands that it's a customer service type of Is for that we haven't figured out how to bring that to the federal level Yeah. But we have to. I one hundred percent. We have to. Every other company does. E other like even those that, you know, I think customer service has never been worse because they're trying to automate it But Wh why are they trying to automate it because they're trying to over time, they hope to be more service oriented to their customers This is all this AI programming just doesn't work very well yet. No, that's right. That's right. Yeahah, that's right. And you know, I'm Mark Dunkeleman, who wrote the gr terrific book Why Nothing Works, You probably know of it is a friend. and you know, so to give Democrats the benefit of the doubt on this. I think there are kind of two competing instincts, which sometimes come to a head and we have to like, I think be thoughtful about this, which is, you know, we want to give everybody a voice in government, and then we also want government you know vern to do things And so I do think that you know you're seeing a lot we're seeing that a lot around the country where you know, and here in California getting rid of some of our environmental laws that were keep making it harder to build housing, for example, that's happening in a lot of places. I think Democrats are finally saying actually, some of our processes where one person can hold things up is maybe you know might have been born from a good instinct that everybody should get to say something, but it's actually really having long term impacts that are bad. And so I'm excited to see some of that change. I'm also excited to see actually, we have a task force on AI and where a lot of people are thinking about guardrails and privacy, which are super important. talk We did a task force on where is AI being used to make government work better and deliver better results. And there's some really cool stuff happening around the country. So's I think we can do this. I have not given up yet No. I mean, and I actually, you know, I'm always I always say I'm long term optimistic, short term pessimistic. And it's just like we will, you know, we always eventually do the right thing, figure it out. We just have to exhaust all the other ideas. Right before we do it Um You know, what's funny about Democrats and rules an And this is going to sound oversplifying, but I think there's something to this, which is for the last most of your adult lives U a majority of Democratic office holders went to Los A majority of Republican office holders own a small business s interesting So and you and then folks wonder why one side is willll tell you there's too much regulation on the other side We'll say, no, you just don't understand how the rules, peopleople will just follow the set of rules. 've often wondered if Democrats need to diversify who their office holders are, the backgrounds of office holders, so that you you sort of, you know, K know what it's like to meet a payroll. know what it's like to go through and have to have a state form, a local form and a federal form in order to have a license to serve booze or um, get a delivery, you know to have a truck be able to like sit outside your property and do deliveries or whatever it is And I know that sounds like I said, a little oversimplifying, but do you think there's something to that No, I do think there's something to that. And I also think so I think small business owners, you know, all kinds of different backgrounds, I've been heartened to see how many more veterans are running as Democrats Um I think that that's an interesting kind of development and that' It actually makes sense to me and it actually should be an easy marriage because veterans serve, you know, the most egalitarian system we have in government is the military. That's right. And if if the system doesn't work, nothing works in the military. So it's one of the places where a bureaucracy, if it isn't doing something correct, it actually Bye Yeah. So they they you know, their systems just work a little bit better. No, that's right. And I think that that's, I mean, I'm a Democratic I can spe to Democric party on this one but I will say that I do think that one of the that unites a whole lot of people that I work with across the country is this sense of service? Is that public service is a service. It's not a, you know a lot, you know, I have a podcast, we have a podcast called an Honorable Profession, which is really know, Bobby Kennedy's idea of government public service is honorable. And we talk a lot about what people into office in the first place. And I mean we've had three hundred and something episodes. We've been this a long time. And so you know, almost to a person, it was a problem that needed to be solved and they asked a question whether it was you know, their father couldn't get health carere, whether the local park needed something. And they figured out that, oh, the town council, the school board, whatever it was is the person who does that. Okay, who should I talk to Oh they're not really responding, Well, you should run. And so I mean, so many people get into politics that way. And I think that you know, I still believe that that's You know, I've been this long time, you've doing this a long time. Like I really believe that despite what everybody hears and there're certainly bad actors in any, you profession, but the vast majority of people got into politics. It's not glamorous when you start. It is not money. It is a sacrifice. They wanted to change something. They wanted to make things better. And so I love people that kind of come from that you know, that orientation I used to always say that ninety five percent of the people that come to Washington came here for the right reasons. You may not agree that the reason that motivated him, but it was a but it was a sort of a noble reason that you just described. somethingomething didn't work. That's right. And they jumped in. and then they get here and they realize And then the other thing I always like to say is that actually they ag F hundred and thirty five members of Congress kind of agree about on eighty five percent of the job It's the stuff that's just somewhere. now used to be five percent, then it was ten. That's probably about fifteen percent that's disagreed upon. moreore than ever. Don't get me wrong. which is why we can't pass simple budgets anymore But that's the irony is that we're fighting over we're fighting over a fifteen percent disagreement, not an eighty five percent disagreement, which is why Rublic is in better shape than we sometimes want to admit I agree with that too. I agree with that too. And its I mean, this look, this is a really weird time. This president is a very uniquely troubling, you know norm breaking. And I think we all think and this is my concern, we all assume, okay, this can't get worse after he leaves type of thing. Yeah But you can't just assume that. You can't just can't just smoke the opium. I mean, I think That's right. Yeah, we got to I choose to look at Trump as an MRI for what's not what everyvery loophole that certainly, oh, that's that was a norm. We got to codify that. That's right And we got to add a constitutional amendment or two on pardons. Maybe that doesn't work it out just fine. like Instead of lamenting, why don't people stand up for norms can we can codify things. That's right. That's right. It feels a little bit to me like we're at the, you know, turn of the last century or something where there's like there's just needs to be some big scale reforms, right on whether you and we haven't updated our democracy in a long time, right? I mean, whether how we vote, you know, with the Supremeourt we've only done a handful of times. We've had these periods, right? right at the beginning We're right at right after the Civil War. esssentially in the right before the Great Depression. Yes with with u with the with the Rbber Barnd Um we really haven't, I mean I would argue we really haven't done a substantive addition to the Constitution since before World War II Some will say, well twenty second amendment, which was a political reform that actually in hindsight might be a mistake.. Yes. twenty fifth Amendment was actually something that was really smart And it was a necessity that was a loophole And it was that actually was a and then eight And then lowering the voting age eighteen certainly isn't insignificant on that front. But we've not had a Something more substantive, right? Yeah. That's right Bince That's right collection of senators and adding income tax. And it feels like two hundred and fifty anniversary is a decent time to talk about this, right? I mean' really it's a nice time to take stock. I mean, you know, we won't do it this year. We won't do it probably till twenty eight, you know, at least. But I do think that this is the conversation that needs to happen. And that's the frustration of where we are right now is that I think that a lot of people could probably agree with that, but everything has become so partisan and so divisive. And we're just gonna need a leader who talks differently and who's willing to be different and who's willing to say,, I mean, can you imagine in our lifetime having a president that basically says I'm not president of the state that he would didn't vote for me? Like it's actually insane It'serally insane. No. I mean every bit of behavior and that's what I know frustrates those on the left, literally if Barack Obama had ever behaved ten percent Donald Trump' behaved, the impeachment proceedings You know probably would have ended successfully. Of course. Absolutely, absolutely. And so it's going to take, I mean, one thing I worry about is, you know, what happens when we get You know, I think we're going to have a great twenty six. I think there's just Democrats are going to have to good twenty six. You know, I think that we're going to have to show I don't think I hope we don't take the wrong lessons from that that you know people like us I think they're just gonna to say that they're really yeah, they're really mad. I think that's going to be a lot of the conversation. Well maybe we can have that conversation after the elections. But we're you know we're going need to actually decide and tell people what we stand for as a party, not to just for're anti Trump. Well, that's incred really important Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. minimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. 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But for her, I think she loves the mini biscuits the most just because she loves the taste and not to mention The sound of the Cutch. Jinx offers plenty of healthy and fun options for your dog Shop at national retailers like Walmart, Petmart, Chhewy or Amazon Do that That's my business hard to work But what you don't hear is the hard work of optimum business secure fiber interternet Send her out. for sixty five dollars a month, I get Bus F Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected internet, on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five to optimum or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms apply. See optimumot com slash business for details Real value shows up in reliability, you don't have to second guess. Like a set of Firestone all season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road. Season after season. Firestone All season tires. For durability, you can count on, just like people Count on you Firestone, always dependable since nineteen hundred If Democrats win the House and the Senate How do you govern for two years with Donald Trump? That's right I you attempt to do it or you try to get rid of them I think you have to do it. Yeah. I think you have to do it. I'm I don't know. I mean, look it is a hard one s that's where I come from too. I mean I get the instinct and I mean, and I also think accountability is important. So this is a little bit of a ush poull, like right? But I do think that like going on our own retribution tour is absolutely the wrong thing to do. It's already been tried It is gigantic mistake. Yeah, what New York and Atlanta did Absolutely. I don't believe intentional about it, but nothing fueled Donald Trump's comeback more than the decisions in New York City and Atlanta and Fult. Yeah. Th those were basically point to something saying that see, see, they're coming after me And I think that that's we have to, you know, and even if look if we surpassing things and and he vetoes them one after the other, that's okay. That's, you know, that's I mean, it's not great, obviously, but, you know, we at least it gets the ball rolling in the right direction and shows people what Democrats would do if they had, you know, somethingbody in the White House as well. So I think that's we have to focus on What do you say to the progressives ivist who's been in this for a long time too and says, you know And I do sense this from the progressive movement because it's very similar to how Conservatives. who were tired of compromising You know, supporting Mitt Romney, tired of compromising supporting JohncCain or George W. Bush Um And the progressives will say, you know You know, we we got behind Bill Clinton, we got behind Barack Obama, we got behind Hillary Clinton but none of them were were really, you know, of us Obama the closer But even that was, you know, he certainly governed more like Bill Clinton than FDR, I think. and Um Don't they have a point. They've never really been in charge of the party, even though they get it evenven though their brand's been in charge of the party for the last twenty years Yeah. Well I guess I think two things. One is let's go back to the math we were doing at the beginning of the show, which is that's, you know, that kind of Democrat is not going to win a national election. J just the math doesn't work. So I think that that's A. And B, I mean, my frustration actually, speaking of like a Hillary Clinton, I think there were people not I mean and You know, you were talking about the pusing. There's a lot of things here. So we're talking about progressive. I don't anyone who calls himself progressive is not somehow an asphett of the center left, right? I think there's a lot of room here for for a big tent. But I do think there were some people on the far, far left who were like, you know, and we both turn it, you know, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump's no difference. Oh, really? Dobbss decision, Supreme Court, you know, like like I think if we go back in history, we will see that there was a very big distinction between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. So I think that, you know, I mean, it sounds kind of goofy, but it's true. L that was a conversation that was happening. What's the difference? And so I think that's what I say to prorogressives. It's like, hey, we got toa win and actually there's more that unites the left center left to left in terms of our values and what we want to see accomplish and equal opportunity for all people and all these things that I think we all can agree on that if we can't come together to fight what is by far the greatest threat in our lifetimes, if not in the country's lifetime, to our democracy and to the Constitution, all kinds of things, then what are we doing Well, let's talk about the S word because I think that is I think it's enormously damaging to the Democratic Party's brand I will confess that I grew up born and raised in Miami, so I am more acute tun to how The word socialism. is viewed by some, you know, if you If you grew up in the sunbelt U you understand that a lot of your friends and neighbors hear the word socialism and think authoritarianism If you grew up in the Midwest or New England That is not your experience U And I so I do think frankly that a guy like Bernie Sanders has no doesn't fully understand or AOC doesn't understand the South Florida experience, but it frankly, it's true in Texas. It's true in Arizona U And yet I look at this typology report and progressive left, seventy percent would prefer Democratic socialist candidates. And we're seeing a huge movement. Mani is is essentially trying to purge New York City Cgressional delegation of anybody that isn't at least sympathetic to the DSA Is that a is it can can the new Dems And can the center left Ms behind a DSA nominee if that's what happens that can help us out what happens. I' start there. I mean I also but think about Manddami in particular, like right he How he's governing, I would argue, thus far, is a far cry from some of the things he said he was going to do early on, Right? So's finding out the constraints. He's finding out the constraints. And but I think that that's an important U conversation because I think that I actually do not think I'm looking forward to digging into that to the P report. And you know, I do not think, I mean, I know for a fact that the majority of Americans would not call themsel socialists. That's No, no, no, no. I was trying to It's one faction. Yeah. in It's literally it's a majority of this progressive faction that is less loyal to the Democratic partarty Yeah in general, little little more sour on it than say your mainstream liberals Yeah, orre almost identical to the to the progressive left except on things like socialism Yeah. And I guess I'd be really curious to kind of do a couple more questions to your kind of point. What do you think that means? I mean, if what it means is I want government to do a better job of taking care of me, which is really what it might mean. Yeah. They' wrong larger safety net and maybe they don't even know what they think that. I, maybe they don't have a policy agenda attached to that. Maybe they just think, you know, I've been this rugged individualism idea, you know, is leaving too many people behind. And I would say, you know, the income inequality is out of control. Th things can be true. That can be true. And we need a politics and a policy agenda that addresses those concerns. that you know, I mean, I was at something the other day, we were talking about government run health carere, right? And so right there's a lot of the left, right, Medicare for all, whatever it is. Th you get to the paragraph in the bill about single payer healthcare and who runs healthca HHS, RFK Jr. You want RFK junror running? Is that really what you mean when you say government health care. So I think I would like I think that there's something in there that's probably important for Democrats to understand about people's sense of urgency about the problems But I'm not sure that actually the solutions'. L if you said that to a lot of our left friends, they probably would go, o, well, that's not what I mean you know No, look, I've I've you know What I want to tell my progressors is just drop the S word. Just trust me. off course, you cannot rebrand it. It's never going reganted It's not going to happen because the way the word was twisted and abused in Latin America. It just is what it is and we are in the America's hemisphere. You know, this is so these areved experiences for people that either live here or are related to people. Yeah. And gnderational experiences People are not this is not yeah, No, I absolutely agree. And again, like maybe if we can have a conversation that gets beyond labels ever you sit down with people and say Okay, I'm gonna, you know what let me let's just take that off the table. Tell me what you mean by that actually. And I'll tell you what I mean by, you know, a more, you know, a healthcare system that is absolutely about, you know, universal healthcare, but doesn't, you know require big government healthca care. M mayaybe we're closer than we think But let me throw something elide I don't feel like that there are folks in the the in the center left category aret that are and I think it goes to this this concern about sort of They don't want to debate the progressive left publicly Yeah And I understand politically why Yeah. But it's why it appears they're losing the argument and why some people think, oh, a majority of Democrats are socialists because the center left never speaks out Yeah. Well, I think that that's fair. And I think that people to your point, I mean, think and I disagree with that being the right approach. I think you've got to speak up and as hard as it is to sometimes tell our friends that we don't agree. Another thing that I've been concerned about recently, we've seen it with some of our leaders around the country, this you know the non the term that we're not supposed to use because it's not a real world real common sense word is but it's intersectionality, right? whichich is this idea that people on the left have adopted each other's causes. So you'll get a questionnaire, for example. This was actually a true example in Arizona where we had a legislator you know being asked alned Parenthood, locallanned Parenthood of who I'm entirely supportive was on my local Planedarethood board, but asking them about defund police. Why would that be on a Planned Parenthood board? right? So I do think that there's also this kind of, not only do we have to speak out indid be honest, you know, The interestive The leadership of the key interest groups on the left off much further to the left, ideologically than those folks that ran those organizations twenty years ago. I think that that's right. And I think that that's You know, and I think we would tell candidates, we know, we don't do elections, but if I was talking to some of our new dealers for rununy, I would say I wouldn't answer a question that comes from an organization What's happening noobbody answers questionnaires. is the ad consultants give. don't do it. Don't do't want to be. I mean, how do you prevent the Kamala Harris ad from happening Right that they them at That's right just donated. you know, she answered sub questestionnaire frrankly, pretty honestly I think every every rational dem leaning person might have answered the question the same way. Well, if you're just If you're already doing this and we're incarcerating them, you know, like I understand like she's not crazy to have come up with the answer she came up with, but it's like Who is asking about a one percent issue Like P Pars smack. Oh by the way. Right O on our side of the aisle. Right O one per. Yeah, we talk about the one percent all the time when it comes to economic power Yeah. But I would argue and this is true on the right too that these interest groups on the left and right that have such that try to be the gatekeepers of who gets to run for office They are one percenters. They're not absolutelyly one percenters, but they're obsessed with a one percent issue that literally I had the mayor of Oklahoma City on. earlier this week. He so he's they hadn't aired yet. Yeah He gave a speech about the importance of pluralism. and' he's a friend and I just loved it. I was glad he did it. It's an unusual thing to speak about Yeah. And he was lamenting. He's a Republican elected mayor of Oklahoma City, but it's a nonpartisan election, which means you get to be normal. Yeah. And ass he said, he goes Let me tell you what the biggest issues are in the state of Oklahoma. And he says, they're the same issues that everybody else is dealing with. cost of living, gas prices et cetera, et cetera.. And you know what the Republican primary for governors is about? He goes it's about trans kids. And it's about deportation, it's about all these things that have nothing to do with the three or four issues that the rest of the voters care about. But these interest groups and and we know that they some of them want to be kingmakers and primaries are sort of demanding this conversation And the most frequent primary voters are people that are in this world No, it's a real Yeah It's a real problem. It is a real screwy thing. and I think that it's You know, often I think it's not about winning and electability. It's about, you know, going back and being able to show your donors youve got someone to say, yeah, you know, sign the pledge, right? It's not it's really which we' just signed. I think that donors are part of the problem here. I do think that donors are part of the problem. I think that that's changing. I'm hearing more understanding about that, but I think remember when the donors were the pragmatists, but now they've become especially especially inherited wealth people I feel like that second and third generation there they all got some crazy political beliefs that they can use their money to amplify I think that yeah, I think that a lot of people have kind of, you know, issues that are their number one issue and they just kind of, you know, sometimes lose the forest for the trees to be honest, right? And I think that that's I think that is a problem within the Democratic Party. I mean, I also I think that to your point, I think that also some of some of the groups too, like they' thinking about labor in particular, I think that's been an interesting, you know, evolution for labor where you know For so long, it was part of the Democratic coalition, and it still is a very important part of the coalition. But you there' been studies that show that some of the labor union leaders are not some of the rank and file members were starting to vote Republican, right? And so I think that I think that those conversations about kind of who people speak for and what do actually real people think on the ground is actually a really healthy. Democrats need to do a lot more listening generally I tend to think that we try to short circuit listening sometimes. All right, let me let me land the plane this way. So if you're an elected U City Council member What is it that you can provide me as I'm thinking about You know, I want to I'm enjoying my work. I want to be more effective And I might want to try another office What is it that you're going to be able to what are the resources that you're providing said person Yeah, I put them in three kind of big buckets. One is idea sharing with other elected officials around the country, thingsings that are working in one community that we've seen spread across communities. People come to our conference and they bring a notebook and they say, I'm going I call my st from. often do you? We do a couple of times. We meet all together twice a year, but we also have ongoing working groups and virtual events throughout the year, which just did a really important when I sa on IC enforcement in the cities and had a real interesting conversation with mayors about cars that are being left behind on streets and what to do with them. And I think that could be a whole conversation. But so just that kind of the tactics of governing, right and learning from each other. Secondly, is we do a lot of skill development, increasingly for our conversation on communications and how do you break through? We've got some leaders who are doing a really great job ha't don't know Kayla Young from West Virginia, a tattooed granddaughter of a coal miner who helped lead the reversal de ban of nuclear energy in her state. Fascinating womoman is a great on social media, doing a lot of direct to camera, explaining how government works. So she's done a lot of teaching our other leaders how to do that. So a lot of digital and authentic communications training, how to be make sure your authentic voice get c. And then third is actually us elevating what they're doing. So getting them on podcasts, getting them out there in front of media. We have our own substack roadmap, it's called strrategy Solutions from outside the Beltway, and a podcast as I mentioned, an audible prorofessions trying to just get their voices out there, however we can to show that there are Democrats who are really focused on results and getting things done. because I think that again, as we started, that's going to be the brain of the Democratic Party that is going to be the most successful. Look, I think u I mean, it makes a lot of sense at some point this pendulum is going to swing Right? We know this that we're going to go from the what, you know, sort of been doing to something a bit more functional, but Um You know, it's one of those I I don't know do you think this is a leadership problem. you think it is it is a does the next successful Democratic president happen because they have figured out How to navigate the center left and the progressive left. I don't think it's a leadership problem. I think that the Democratic talent out there from the top to, you know, the inc amazing number of people we're going to be watching actually run for president. We have a lot of really good options actually. And then if you think about the work I do all the way down to city councils and school boards we have tons of talent. I think it's a It's almost what the work we do is almost like helping people Yes, governed effectively. they also have permission to step outside this kind of crazy structure that they're governing in. and to be able to say, you know, we get a lot of calls The consultant wants me to do this. I'm like, how does it feel to you? Don't do it. Do what feels right to you. So I think it's a little bit of just like breaking the frame and breaking the mold You know and I you know, again, I just fundamentally believe that most of us want to see a politics that works, you know, a government that's and government leaders that are inspiring and of character. And so I think we just got to keep fighting for that and not compromise on that. I'm all for it. I mean, we need we need You know, I We need a way to, I mean, I always say we invented politics to figure out how to settle disputes without violence 's right. We've got to learn to practice politics again Let's stay in that lane please. I know because Yeah know, if we stop figuring this out There's only one other alternative and that that's no fun and And that's the majority of this planet majority of this planet doesn't have what we have. That's right That's sometimes we forget how lucky we are that we have process that we have That's right. A least that's imperative to so many other places that don't Yeah, that's right. Civic education National service. There's other ways we can think about how to get people back engaged too. I would love to see us talk to talking about some of those things. Oh the civic onene of the smartest things I got was from a viewer who wrote in a question that just speculated, and I think they're onto something that the unintended consequence of no child left behind and of the and of the testing trying to create metrics for our education system is that we prioritize the metrics on reading and arithmetic, as you might imagine The one place we did not. have a test for with Cyics Yeah. I love So what happened? All of a sudden schools just stop prioritizing and the good teachers were essentially recruited to go teach English and math and the stuff that mattered to the test, which of course dollars and bottom lines and and we had and then we have a generation that doesn't know how the Constitution works. No, exxactly happen. I think That's right. That's right. That's really interesting actually I think that's as important as anything that we address actually. And I haven't connected those dots, but that's interesting. I haven'tither and I'm just been it was one of those, you know, you're like, The angels music, a, right? Like you're like Yeah, I I'm like that makes so p. And it's like if we can revitalize, create an you know, sometime between the age Everybody, what did you First get into pathon. When were first sixteen? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody I know was always high school because you had the civics teacher. You had this one, whatever it was. Um, They're just less and less of a priority. And I get why? I mean, it's not irrational Right. B that's right you wonder why we've don't even under if I have to that I have to like do a glossary in order to explain what pluralism means. No, exactly. dont exxactly And too many people just my vote doesn't matter, you know, and that may be true in the electoral college, but it sure as heck matters for the person who won one vote for mayor or city cououncil member, right? I mean, so we just got to get people back to understand this is this is a With rights come responsibilities, and voting and engagement is one of those. We always can learn from Spider Man. That's. It sounded like that F to make quote. Hey, Debie, this was great. I appreciate it. It's really fun. Great to be with you. Thanks so much Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and Ls of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. minimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. Full terms and wagering requirements at horseshoe onnlinecasino dot com slash promos. If you or someone you know is a gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler is Ke Miller from OK Storyime. So I have a furry friend named Mia to me. 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See optimum. com slash business for details. Your vehicle doesn't just get you from here to there. It's a bridge to the people and places that matter most. It's how you show up for your family, your community, and everyone else that depends on you That's why for one hundred and twenty five years, Firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind to deliver products that are as reliable as you are Firestone, always dependable since nineteen hundred Topast Jest top f top f top justest Wellne in the spirit of Independence Day, America two hundred fifty, which of course, I've lamented and how much unfortunately This has been ruined by the current president, I thought instead of talking about real presidents. We talk about fictional presidents because I'll be honest when I think of Independenceay, I think of the greatest fictional presidential speech Today is not just our independence Day U by by Bill Pullman. So I thought, you know what I'm gonna give you my five favorite fictional presidents. This doesn't mean they're who I think would have made good presidents per se U There's one or two on here that I think would have would have made good overall presidents Um But I think in the spread, I'd love to hear from you who would you have added to this list? and let's have a little bit of fun that. So here's my top five list is always brought to you my friends at Fandl. So number five is President David Palmer, Dennis Hazbert from twenty four. and I will this is the most presidential of my picks, if you will, like he could have been president. Now, I'm also going to put him on the list because Dennis was the voice of meeet the press. When he used to introduce meeet the Press, the longest running television show, that was of course u, the voice of Dennis Haysberdies and and just like his voice over for the introduction to me on Meet the press And twenty four, he was calm. He was grave. He was believable He was one of the fictional presents like, I'd vote for that guy. Um and it did seem as if he was constantly dealing with national security crisis. So at least the fictional resume is pretty strong. so count me in Number four in my list. is of course one of the worst presidents, fictional presidents we've ever had, but perhaps the funniest fictional president we've ever had, and that is President Selina Meyer, Julie Louis Dreyiffus on the Mount Rushmore of All time Great comedic actors Look, Vep, as many of us tell you all the time, you know, what's more real Vep or West Wing? I'm telling you, Washington is more Vep than West Wing. There is no, you know, the world that Aaron Sorkin has created does not exist and may never have existed The world created by Vep very much exists. And look She is what's what Selena Myer exposes is those that have the super ambition. Now the irony is M of the of the Truly ambitious driven wannabe presidential candidates Never actually get the office We do we're usually pretty good at sniffing out those who just want the office to have the office's sake, right? that everything like that. And I say we're usually pretty good at sniffing that out I said, we're usually pretty good at sniffing that out. We don't always sniff that out very well I'm Selena Meyer all the I mean, Vep Veep is one of those shows that I, when I now watch it in the Trump era It just gets different Porn but it hits different. Number three on my list H President James Marshall, you may know him. as Harrison Ford. getet off my plane. right? Look, Harrison Ford You know, I have a son named Harrison. I love Harrison Ford. I didn't technically name him after Harrison Ford for those of you wondering B. You know, it's funny if there's like two actors that sort of have been with me in more movie theaters than any other two actors that I would go to for the longest period of time, whether in movie or TV, it is Kevin Costner and Harrison Ford. So there is this affinity I certainly have for Hrison Fort. I'm a middle aged white guy, so I'm probably not alone on that front I don't know if that character would have been a good president, but I know that if I wanted deal with the Russians. I would want fictional president James Marshall and get off my plane is it's basically What happens if Indiana Jones had the nuclear codes? Because the beauty of Harrison Ford You know, I've always I heard I one time heard this interview about acting There are two types of actors humans and aliens. And the point being is that the alien is like a Merril Street or Gary Oldman, they become the character and you can't even recognize the actor playing the character. They are so good at essentially Be coming this character. And then there are people like George Clooney, Harrison Ford U who are always George Clluding and Harrison Ford. and yet They know how to play Harrison Ford as a fictional president or Harrison Ford as the archeologist or Harrison Ford is uh the Schwashbuckling smuggler Right in a in a in a space movie. The point being is, you know, they're kind of the same guy but we really like that guy And I think that's Harrison forord. So he's number three Number two on my list Normally would have been number one because it's the greatest fictional speech anybody's ever written It is Thomas Whitmore Otherwise the fictional president played by Bill Pullman in Independence Day, it is the speech, right? If Harrison Ford is defined by get off my plane when he kicks him off the plane This president, you know, it's funny. It's like he's kind of feels like a weak president in over his head. like That's kind of how they paint him, right? And Jeff Goldblum's the smart guy in the room And then by the end, you're like I'm going to follow that guy, you know, when he gets up there and grabs the microphone and does this, you know, july fourth will no longer be remembered as an American holiday W And here you you're finding yourself all fired up. about some manufactured fictional aliens that don't really exist, right Um That's when you know somebody has written some pretty good sci fi and some pretty good fantasy. But number one on my list shouldould be a joke And yet I'm putting them on my list because you and I both know that this isn't going to be filled with much subtext. It is President Duayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho played by Terry Cruz in idiocracy. Yes, it's the Chaos pick. It's the ridiculous pick. He's loud. he's vulgar. He's the pro wrestling coded president in in Mike Judg' idiocracy U, but it's an unforgettable character and he's actually Even though you may think I am picking this as a not so subtle subtext of our current politics Which yes, I am. So there's no subtext here. abbsolutely. But you know the big distinction between my fictional presresident Camacho and our current presresident Camacho and the White House is that the presresident Camachcio in idiocracy was self aware on one point He had one presidential virtue that when he found someone smarter than he was, he gave that guy power I don't think in the real world that our real President Camacho would do that. So there you go There's my top five list of this week. Enjoy it. My five favorite fictional president. who's yours? I think at this point, given the real world that we live in It is hard not to put camacho at number one But you tell me Who's your number one. numberum one that's the most important to sort of showow what we're living in. and of course, I'd love to know Wh's the fictional president that she'd actually like to see as president. And I know what some of you going to say Where's the west wing Now as I told you Its it's just a little too unrealistic to me H which is why I'm leaving u Just I Bart let off of this one, but I know many of you will put him on your top five. Look, he's he's a strong Honorable mention, don't me wrong. But there you go, there's my top five for the wee Well, this episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you by Fandal. It's the biggest stage in world soccer. Trust me, you got Americans caring about soccer. I'm sitting suddenly caring. 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You can call one eight, seven seven eight, hope and why, or you can simply text Hope NY, New York in order to get some help with any gambling concerns. Finally, you can also call one eight seven seven, seven seven zero, seven eight six seven if you're in Louisiana Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. mininimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. Full terms and wagering requirements at horseshoe onnlinecasino dot com slash promos. If you or someone you know is a gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler is Ke Miller from OK Storyime. So I have a furry friend named Mia to me. She's more than a pet, she's practically family Part of that love is what's best for them. 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It's a bridge to the people and places that matter most It's how you show up for your family, your community, and everyone else that depends on you That's why for one hundred and twenty five years, Firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind to deliver products that are as reliable as you are Firestone, always defpendable since nineteen hundred As jerk All right, let's get the jingle goingone. Let's do some m check All right Jim in Tobahana, Pennsylvania writes, Hey, what's the point of voting down ballot if so many members of Congress seem to vote along party lines? Youve said temperament is one of the qualities you value in politicians, does it still matter if representatives are more focused on party leadership than their constituents? Am I wrong Jim and by the way, he writes Go Buffalo Bills, excited for the new stadium. Hey U Jim curious, do you have a h do you have a strong preference on the OJ. Simpson situation Do you put him in the new stadium's ring of honor A. I'm just curious where you stand. I was asked this very question for what it's worth I sort of leaned on the side of I under I think you I think honoring him feels wrong An erasing him feels wrong So you've got to find what is that? You can't tell the story of the Buffalo Bills without O.J. Simpson that doesn't mean you build a statute to him, right? So I think it's a And I don't think it it's as easy as some people want to make it. But anyway, let me get to your question. U You know This is a chicken and egg situation. I assume Um which is You know, so many members of Congress and swing districts swear they're going to be, you know, they're going to, you know They're not going to follow party leadership. They're going to, you know do what they're supposed to do. And yet, you're right, right There's a reason why each side can run the ad that so and so votes ninety five percent of the time with President Trump and so and so votes ninety five percent of the time Chuck Schumer, you know, whatever it is U becausecause there's so many procedural votes. that are partying line, you know, they're rules. so it sort of inflates that. So sometimes the statistics can be a bit misleading. but The fact is in the sort of polarized world that we live in Um part part of the expectation and part of the job where you sort of You may like an idea that's coming from across the aisle, but that idea is attached to other ideas that are bad ideas that will undermine your side of the aisle and you're trying to figure out what to do. I think this is what frustrates the average voter who isn't a partisan, right? I always say like, you know, What am I doing here at the checkpile? This is basically I'm trying to explain politics to the rest of us for the rest of us, which is if you're not a hard partisan on the left or right, you know Why is it so hard to get a member of Congress to just sort of you know I sort of vote where the public is not where their party is. And it is it is just harder than you think it is And I think part of it is what I just described. It's You know You may like one idea, but you can't vote on it separately. It's attached to three other things, right? because each party essentially wants to create poison pills, if you will, in order to. It's like, fine, we know this part is popular, but I really want to get my unpopular idea to pass. so I'm going to sneak it through a popular idea and that's how partisans left and right, no matter which side of the of the aisle has the power at the moment, tries to sneak things in. and that's what makes bipartisan agreements so difficult U and even more difficult than ever This is if I were to create the, you know This just simply is politics as it is, right? This is how it works right now and If you if you're gonna if you want to try to govern within the system that we have you're kind of stuck having to do this performative leadership bullshit test What would be better? a situation where individual lawmakers felt as if they had more to worry about from their constituents than more to worry about from their party. And right now, Particularly in the legislative branches, the party has a bigger role over your ability to get anything done than if you get elect like it's easier to be independent minded as a governor. It's even somewhat easy to be in slightly more independent minded. as being a senator It is really hard in the legislative branch on the house side of things, whether it's a state House or the US House. If you try to operate outside either of the major party structures You just, you can't get anything done. the way these these entities are are and make it. this is to me what makes them undemocratic institutions is that essentially Even though we have a large constituency of Americans and are a member of either party, they basically punish any member who does not member of either party in their ability to get on the right committees and their ability to introduce legislation and their ability to do these things. So Um This is why somewhat brought up the chicken and egg Um, problem there, which is you know, in order to partarty matter less, you need to almost see the whole the rules of all of these institutions. completely blow up the two party system and they're totally disincentivized. to make the system work better for those not inside one of the two major parties. And I think that this is what makes that that That's the problem and why are, you know, why Ultimately why most Senate races now are slipping into party label territory. where the jersey color matters more than the individual Um, and I think we're going right that that that is going to that that is being tested the most and in the states of Maine and Texas Maine is a democratic state that has consistently elected and reelected a Republican senator and Susan Collins because they you've had a group of voters whove prioritized the individual over the party lab And then in Texas, right, you have a James Cala Rico who' hoping he can get a handful of voters to prioritize the individual over the party label I just think the voters is more educated than ever and they realize as much as they you know, they see their individual member as being a little bit more independent of say, the national partarty or the state partarty At the end of the day, ninety five percent of the time, they're going to end up sticking to the party label that they are, so you better be comfortable knowing that going again And and I think that that's the um That's explains why why we We're getting some many party line voters and and why, you know, it's sort of like You can't really operate in these legislative branches if you're not esssentially somewhat party line if you want to even introduce ideas and get new ideas, O. even be considered So it sort of incentivizes this and then over time voters are getting educated by it. they get it And that's that's why it's possible if Platner wins. I think it's a reminder that We're going to someome people will say character doesn't matter and I think we're just going to say partarty jersey matters more if that's the situation that we get All right, next question comes from Luke. Previously from Ohio now from Connecticut, he writes He said, Hey, had a question after your recent comments on Zoan Mandani and Israel, at the principleal Is that modern states shouldn't privilege one ethnic or religious group over others? What makes Israel the exception? What do you see as the key principle behind that distinction? I understand that the Jewish people have endured extraordinary persecution, including the Holocaust, but they are not the only people to have experienced genocide or systemic persecution. It' transgender man, I certainly wouldn't argue that the answer is transgender ethn state. I'd rather build societies where everyone enjoys equal rights and equal protection under the law Thanks. I think the reason there's so why I take issue with what Mam Di said a little bit because and others have taken a harder line on what he said is because There are You know, dozens of states that prioritize one religion over the other. And so the question is, why did you just single out Israel on this when there are plenty of Arab states that prioritize a religion. And it's, you know, and it's not even, you know, it is a Jewish state, but it is not it is also an equal rights state. Now look, I would say the issue is not the state of Israel, the issue is the government of Israel And so The minute your criticism of Israel gets it to the existence of the state itself It is hard for me to take that criticism as anything other than an othering of a small minority population versus if your criticism of Israel is that they're no longer living up, that this government isn' living up to the foundounder's vision of Israel, Well, that's a different story and you're going to certainly have more credibility me and others who are highly critical of what BB has done. And frankly, you know, there's no doubt Hs. who's certainly got, you know, who has done more damage to to the American relationship with Israel, There's no single individual that's done more damage to this than Bibi Netanyahu. He partisanized it, he polarized it. you know, everything he did during the Obama era is what led to this moment and his decision to make it a party you know, to essentially side with one party damaged Israel, right? now Israel's on an island on its own. So look, he's at You know, this I just, you know, they the The immediate criticism of Israel for this when literally there are fifty other countries that have a similar relationship with one religion over another Um is it just didn't ring true and the fact that he went there it was sort of, like I said, it was a clever answer Right? He didn't want to say he didn't believe in the state of Israel. He just didn't believe and its right to be a Jewish state And, you know, again, it sort of is you could what's the difference between you know, Israel and so and Pakistan, for instance u, you know, with preferential treatment for religion or in Indonesia or something like that. So Um Again, I just think if you you know, your credibility you know, trying to erase the existence of Israel is what makes the debate not a debate with a lot of people Um making it about how Netanyahu is twisted tortured the Um principles of what the founders of Israel intended and what he's done now. is two different things Um, and again, I mean, if if the DSA wants to have credibility with Uh, with with certain voters. Um I that They need to start there. And when you when you're when you're essentially your starting point is it shouldn't exist Um I think there should be criticism that BB doesn't no longer believes in a two state solution, right? And that should be Um, You know, if you told me American policy and American aid to Israel was tied to Israel pursuing and believing and pushing for a two state solution I think that is something that would have wide Um support in the American Diaspora for what it's wor. U Mike and Albany rightright, say a few voting questions for you. Do you think expanding vote by mail nationwide could be argued as an issue of equal access given the costs and barriers some voters face. Al also while Trump can't appear on the ballot for president again, could he legally mount a writing camp And after his electoral history, do you think it suggests America St isn't ready to elect a woman as president, thanks for your insight, Mike and Albany L in Albany, Oregon, excuse me I just said Albany and they're going to jum opening work and that was that's new to me All right, that's that's quite a few questions there So let me start with expanding vote by mail. Look, I think Look, each state has to give equal access to voters, right? It is you know, I think that there's, you know, and states you know, can't sort of prioritize certain sets of voters over the others Um, But it is a state by state basis on that. I don't think there's any Um, I think can I call this convenience voting, you know, making giving more opportunities to vote that bit on your time rather than having to You know, only prioritize one day when anything could happen that would, you know, get in the way of you having an opportunity to get to the polls, etcetera So, u So I look, I think that that's been the best argument for vote by mail has been that it gets equal access. But the way to att the end of the day why it will never go away and why the Republican Party will never be able to kill mail and voting is that suburban voters The upper, you know They want the convenience voting and if you get rid of the convenience voting, the snowbirds want the convenience voting. you know, I mean, the original The original vote by mail T. constituency would the snowbirds of Florida and the Republicans dominated that until the Democrats. Deed the tactics and found an incredible amount of success Um, so u I think that that is a u I think the best way to sell it is that it' an access issue. but I think convenience and access together U, I think make it easier to sell vote by mail Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. M be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. mininimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. Full terms and wagering requirements at horseshoe onnlinecasino dot com slash promos If you are someone you know is a gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler is Ke Miller from OK Storyime. 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It's a bridge to the people and places that matter most It's how you show up for your family, your community, and everyone else that depends on you That's why for one hundred and twenty five years, Firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind to deliver products that are as reliable as you are Firestone, always defendable since nineteen hundred All right, now to get to your second question, while, Trump can't appear on the battle to presresident again, could he legally mount a writing campaign Well, I mean, you know, in theory, yes. I mean, the problem is he just can't get certified. He can't serve. I will tell you this. So Um I think there is one legal loophole that Th that are obsessed with this, Steve Bannon is somebody that is obsessed with this that there's one legal loophole in this in the Constitution. that provide Trump an opportunity to run for a third term and I will walk you through it because If he did want to run for one more full term He would need to do the following in the next six months before the new Congress takes hold and it is the following resesign the presidency and somehow get the Republican and then you and JD Vance agrees to a point Trump, the vice president And the Republican Senate confirms him and he becomes the sitting vice president before the new Senate takes over And so why why is that the loophole Well there has been sort of agreed upon constitutional scholarship that says that essentially, if you haven't, remember, LBJ gets the presidency Um, after the halfway mark of the Kennedy presidency And And so the interpretation of the two terms then was because he had not served more than half of one term, he was actually eligible to serve two full terms. So we So he could have served almost esssentially ten right, you know, nine years plus plus plus about forty days you know, nine years and forty days plus the extra twenty. So basically nine years in two months essentially was what he was constitutionally eligible to serve. Well, if if Donald Trump you know wanted to and this is how you do it and which is you would have a you would get a Justice Department, office of legal counsel to do an OLC memo that would sort of address a circumstance like this and just sort of file it away at theLC as a justice department interpretation You would then execute this plan Democrats would raise constitutional questions, The Justice Department would release this offffice of Legal counsel. and then the courts would have to decide how to do this and and you know, the point being is then there's a legal thread. Well he hadn't served a full two years of that second term. Now he's the sitting vice president. He's only served less than six years. if LBJ could have been eligible to serve one more four year term, then why couldn't Donald Trump be eligible to serve one four year term? And oh, by the way, what's magical about becoming the appointed vice president? guuess who would get to oversee his own certification on january sixth going in on that. So What I've outlined to you is a completely nightmare legal scenario that I fear has just enough thread to make certain judges find a constitutionality to what would be this brazenly unconstitutional power grab, right But you might have it isn't going to be clean on the unconstitutional ruling side of things. So Look, it's pretty clear if you're not, you know eligible to serve you know, it is it is, you know I'm just saying this is the vulnerability that I've identified few other people have identified if you're looking for a way. Now This would mean A JD Vance would be willing to essentially be a puppet President Right? Is he willing to do that Are there is there is there are there fifty Republicans willing to confirm Donald Trump as vice president in this current Senate Are we sure right? Bill Cassidy, Tom Tillas, John Cornan, Lisa Murkowski, right? You could just So I don't think this is a realistic scenario politically in our current political environment. But if you're asking me for How would one go about it in a way that would at least create a question about its legality and it would end up in the courts. I think this scenario. him running is a write in I think Democrats would love nothing more for Donald Trump to run as a write in and you would have this situation. I mean, you know, it it is It is I He could and I don't think it would be very successful. Um And then your last question. after His elector history do you think it suggests America stilln't ready to elect a woman as president. So It's interesting that Donald Trump You know, he's run for president three times. He defeated women twice. He lost to the only man he faced Um and I know it's easy to assume it means that women can't win. Pm with being able to make that declaration is, you know, How much? was Clinton's last name And how much was her gender? What mtered more? I will I've I think some of you've heard me say this a million times. like, I'll go to my grave believing Hillary Smith defeats Donald Trump and that it was good that it was her last name, not her first name that was the problem. and that it was the idea that she was not changeed. And Clinton was a brand political name that was falling out of favor and brand names and politics were falling out of favor. and we know My goodness, it's obvious to see this now ten years later. in the moment, it wasn't easy to see and we can't pretend it was easy to see time. So again, we're all smarter you know, with distance and pretty it's pretty easy to see these days. So I don't think that's a fair test of whether the country is ready to elect a woman president And then there's Kabbala Harris. Well She's a sitting vice president. For an unpopular president trying to seek election on her own No vice president has been able to pull that Right? Al Gore couldn't do it. Um and he had a and the and Bill Clinton was was popular as president and unpopular personally and it was that distinction that caused Gore You know, that basically is why Gore came up short. Um, Hubert Humphre. U In one of the closest elections of the twentieth century in nineteen sixty eight He was trying to defeat a unpopular a, you know, he's trying, he was trying to replace an unpopular president that he was serving. So Um, it is, you know unpopular vice, you know, Vice presidents of unpopular presidents rarely win. It doesn't matter what their gender is So I guess my argument is we haven't had a fair test yet. on this front Um And I understand why it's easy to say what you've said because what we've seen, but Um, I just I just don't think we've had a fair test U And because you've had two Tw other issues both Haris and Clinton were dealing with that were very frankly frankly conventional political problems, meaning they were dragging around somebody else's political baggage.