Access Journalism and Future Outlook

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This is when it hits you. That myrtle moment It's the second everything clicks when you realize Myrtle Beach is more than a getaway It's right where you belong Don't just daydream about it. find your own Myrtle moment at visit Myrtlebeach. com This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you by chapter Now almost everything you hear about Medicare is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere And you're skeptical of that. As you should be. I get it. I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now Over exactly this, companies that branded themselves as unbiased while allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most as some sort of broker So if your default is to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it. I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole reason I want to tell you about chapter independent Medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are not paid to push anyone They're just trying to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it, but it's across the board is what they're trying to do. At the end of the day, they're advocating for you. They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs, and then compares them every single plan available to find the best one that will work for you and hopefully save you a couple of dollars too And here's the part that sets chapter apart. They don't disappear once you've been enrolled. They will keep advocating for you. They're kind of like almost like a concierge service. You're just there. I need help. You're like customer service You know, the plan, you know, help me navigate this again. so you ever get hit with a wrongful medical bill, They'll help you fight it. They They want to stay an advocate for you even after you've done this. So look, I get it I think there's all sorts of You see a lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space. What I like about these chapter folks, I've spent time with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is Medicare and all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing. The whole point of this is to make this easier and less confusing Okay, so look Take the skepticism you already have in all of this. pointint it at your own plan for twenty minutes. It's free, there's no pressure and then call chapter today at nine eight zero seeven three, four Three, nine, eight, five So join me now is Carolyn Ryan.'ve had parallel tracks at major big news organizations, covering politics, covering Washington. Carolyn is the managing editor for the New York Times overseeing the Washington Bureau of Politics U And as you said, New York, I mean What does that mean, Carlyn when you say you over say New York? Is it New York City Bureau stuff, political or is it more than that Well, there's first of all, thanks for having me on So there we have about sixty staffers on our metro department. So that's really, you know, that's crime transportation politics. Quite frankly, the last six months even more have been politics. I mean I have to tell you my very first job at the New York Times, I came from the Boston Gobe. was New York politics editor. So it was Bloomberg, It was Charlie Wangle, It was Spitzer, it was Hillary Clinton And it was the best job And because New York has this outsize kind of drama to it and personality. And once again, you have this movement that is emanating from New York and kind of an earthquake in terms of the New York primary And it's fascinating to me right now You know, Adam NcGurney who got his start covering Albany You know Yeah. would tell me all the time. He said, politics was so much more fun. And of course, he has war stories that go back when Tim Russard was a political operative and he goes Mario C. you have no idea right, you know, type of thing. And Adam I have some great stories that I'll never share that came from Adam about Tim's days as a political operative. They're fantastic. But so look, you guys are I want to talk a little bit. We talk about independent media, right? The most successful independent news organization we have in the country is New York Times right now. You guys are are on one hand it setting the bar high and well and the only thing I think that we're all concerned about is that you're alone And that, you know, because, you know, You know, one isn't enough, right? You need We need independent news organizations to feel empowered up and down up and down the food chain, if you will, of this Um What do you see as this state of independence journalism at the moment you know, I've always said the best time to get into journalism is actually when it's in a in a downturn. That's how I've been trying to tell young people, don't give up on us. This is actually the best time to jump in. This is how I got my break. But How do you see the state and what what are What are some positives and what concern you Yeah. It's a great question and I think like you, I kind of obsessed about the state of local media, especially. I came out of small papers in Massachusetts, came up to the Boston Gobe U And grew up in Massachusetts? Yeah. I grew up on the south shore and started covering small town life there. My big break, I should tell you, Chuck Ted Kennedy was running for reelection in nineteen ninety four. Nobody wanted to cover him in the newsroom because he always cruised to reelection. I put my hand up And that was the year a man named Mitt Romney decided to run against him. So it became a naturational prest. So But here's the thing. you know, the Times is has a set of principles that guide us. and whatever you think of the Times or their opinion page The without feair favor is who we are And the notion of being independent of any party, of any ideology is something that the owners of this paper, of this news organization truly believe. But it's also those are the values that we really look to instill in people who come to work here who might not have had the benefit. of working at the Boston Globe or roll callall or coming up in these ways. And it's really learning, you know, fact based independent reporting and helping inform a public at a time when algorithms and social media tend to reward very different value systems, if you can even call it value systems One of the things that I always say the biggest thing I miss being at a big news organization is the resources Um, you know, and it is it's something as much as You you know, I can sit here and beat my chest about my independence and there is a lot to it There are things I cannot I would like to do a dive on this, but you know, I'm in the middle of also starting trying to, you know, run a business over here and do all this and I I don't have Um, the research department or I don't have this collaboration of a bureau where I can, you know or I can take two months off to do this. Um this is what a really good independent news organization can do. And my concern right now is that I think the Wall Street Journal has resources and they use them. I think the post has resources. and I hope they're going going to continue to use them. We can I think more of their issues are on the opinion side than anywhere else these days And a little bit of the identity crisis that the Washington Post goes through every decade. Are we a local paper? We' national paper? You know, you guys gave up being a local paper long ago, I'm teasing Um Okay So I would love for you to explain just the level of resources that you have as a reporter at the times that you really don't have anywhere else Well, it was really kind of moving last week. Someone you and I both know Jonathan Swan. We had a book party because Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan have this book about the Trump. administration and he was reflecting on something that I think a lot of journalists think about these days, which is do you go to a substack or do kind of a newsletter go truly independent. But the things that come into play when you're doing independent reporting, especially hard reporting, investigative resources Frankly, legal resources now. That's the this is People, I work on that harder than anything else and it's the hardest nut to crack Right. I know journalists who do a lot of Epstein reporting literally can't get insured because they do upstandate recorting. That's exactly right. I mean, the other resources that are sort of breathtaking at a place like the Times that really invests in journalism, Um You know, video investigations, being able to look at satellite imagery in the middle of a war and guide people into where attacks are being placed, having investigative teams, you know, not just in New York but overseas, having them in Washington, you know, some of our best stuff, which I know you know Eric Lipton and oers about Trump and the ways that he has benefited and really his fortune has ballooned during this administration. That takes a lot of time It takes a lot of time to do really deep stuff as Sue Craig did on Trump's taxes in the beginning of all of this. It takes time even we can talk about this We had a breakthrough story on the Platina race. I think the women who had dated him You know, you know as well as I do, like that's a long time talking to people. They might a lot of lawyering too, a lot of legal. We're lucky to have the best, I think, legal team. And I have to say, Chuck, when Trump was running again and some of the threats were beginning They really got ready and some of the stuff that we're seeing now play out at the Pentagon and elsewhere, you know, they were really kind of looking at scenarios. And when you talk about are we alone U You know, it's really important right now for news organizations like ours and others to come together in these moments and stand up for these basic values and kind of issues of access Um And so some of that has been heartening when people do. Some of it's been a little disheartening when some of D Some of our traditional allies have not been there Interesting. U I hear you on that. And I've looked, there are other news organizations And this has been look, the I hate sounding like Um, some sort of radical on this. b I do now see that a publicly traded company owning a news organization, if it is not their primary business puts that new news organization in a vulnerable position. And I've watched other news organizations pull back in certain ways And it's very subtle Um whether it's, you know, having people tell reporters, don't do shouted questions when you're in the pool Don't be the person that asks a certain question of the day, Don't create a confrontation And I understand the business side of it. Like I'm not I'm not crazy. and I think these there' been I look at these big media companies, you know, I'm what Disney ended up doing was a disaster for all of us. It hurt all of us I think Iiger now knows this I think that's why Disney's fighting it fighting what's going on at the FCC now They made a mistake I appreciate that they learned from their mistake that not standing up and fighting that Steephanopoulis lawsuit damaged all of us. abbsolutely had a big impact I don't think that was the intent But they had shareholders, and I get it. And I I really Oh no, I mean, look, you guys are a publicly traded company But there is this sort of independent ownership structure that does seem as and you don't have other businesses that are bigger revenue streams than the business that you have, correct? I think that's a really good point. I mean, the Salzberger family, I think, is ride or die with the mission of They will die on this hill. They are very committed to it. And that's a family that, you know, for generations has been there. The other thing, as you say, they are not looking to get government contracts. They're not looking to go to space. They', you know, they not to take anything away from people who are, but they are not. what they care about and what is their identity? Their identity is journalism. Their identity is the New York Times in a way that is deeper I think, it's not a diversified business in that sense. and it's no question like where the values are. So I think that's right. and I think your observation is correct. I do have to say and you're a student of this as well, there are some good things happening around the country just in terms of nonprofit news organizations, people who have grown up in newsrooms like ours and are, you know, going to places where good journalism is really needed. And I think readers reward that and they know what is straight up good journalism. so Part of what we're trying to do, you know, you probably know this, but we have a Dean Bckay, our former editors is doing a bunch of investigative projects around the country with local news organizations. We do it I love that you're doing this. I mean, look, it's what Pro publica started doing this and I'm so glad you guys are are doing this. I will tell you You know, what look, I think I've said it out loud. I don't care. I hope somebody steals the idea. You know, my goal is to figure out How do you network How do we create a cooperative? You know, in the history of media, the UPI was a cooperative. It wasnt it wasn't like a nonprofit like AP. It was actually a for profit cooperative and literally, it was trading resources and it was a way for individual local news organizations to have some sort of national identity when they needed it or some sort of resource when they needed it, but everybody also individually owned their own IP. And individually, you know, I would love to see us be able to build a robust independent network, and I think you guys have this ability frankly, to essentially help grow a network. You don't have to own it. In fact, I don't think I think it's bad if it's the New York Times owns local news organization acts. It is more that the New York Times is supportive of this cooperative of shared resources, of making sure there's legal insurance for small local independent news organizations that can't afford that policy, but maybe as a collective can, right think that's what's needed in order to boost this. So I'm glad You know, the more We can raise the profile of this of these independent locals, the better Yeah. I mean, I think that's right. and you know, there are small ways, there are big ways. I mean, even doing you probably saw this, but like some of our polling for the midterms have been huge partnerships with locals. Yeah. Yeah. the Portland Press Herald would not have access to that kind of and we're glad to do it. We did something in Pennsylvania the same way And you know, at the same time, we're also building hubs in some of these places like Texas where we need to get deeper into news, state politics, et cetera. because our readers are demanding it. So That's a big part of our investment You brought up Maggie and Jonathan Habersan It's thats, you know, ye. I love with the pork one too. It's great. Move over Woodstein. We now have Paper swwamp Um Look, there's the there's a there's always and it's just in journalism circles. Hey did they hold their scoops for their book or this and Look, I don't even think it's a close call. I am on the side of This is much more powerful coming out in one book than it would be because You know, I'm of two minds in most Trump books Yeah, tell me what you There itches There are a ton of them. And I always say every book's the same in one respect You won't believe what he tried to do. you won't believe what How we stopp how he was stopped or why, you know, there's always the there's this, you know, and it's always like so and so actually stopped him and you're like, so and so. I didn't think so and so would do that, right? There's there's a little bit of that. And then there's the And then there's frankly There are new anecdotes. doesn't it isn't necessarily a new Understanding Does that make sense And that is the most fascinating thing about this book is that if you covered the first term very closely, Yeah. notothing in here is I don't want to say news is the wrong way. I don't wantna call it non news. It is news. None of this is surprising. It's almost like Well, yeah, that's exactly what we saw that you saw, that's what he was hoping to do then and he couldn't quite do it. Now he did it, right? It is It is certainly you see the culmination of everything he tried to do in his first term. And I think that what I give I am glad this is on the record on account. but Eplain your icy What is that balance? How much did you have Maggie and Jonathan check in with you? How often did they say, hey, we have we have something here Did you rely on them to come to you when they thought, hey, we shouldn't hold this Or did youu regularly check in on them Right, right. People ask about this First of all, I just have to say I don't know if you've had a chance to read the book yet, because in the middle of it., it's wonderfully written to. It's a nice read.'s yeah And the level of detail, the description of these scenes is I feel like the thing that it makes me think about is Robert Carro just in terms of recreating like you are in the situation room. And by the best compliment they could get is that the Trump White House tried to create a rumor that there's a secret recording And you're like, oh, so it was that accurate. Anyway. that was pretty nice. Maggie and Jonathan, as you know are singular reporters. I don't think there's anyone like them right now. And I feel like part of what you see with them coming forward you know, in some of the excerpts we've run, but certainly in the book is just the um, way inside this orbit I mean, for me, and this goes to your question about us talking we are talking to them constantly. Maggie is probably know Even when she's on book leave, she has more bylines than like most ordinary reportters. She is just constantly She's a sccoot machine and that doesn't her brain does not turn off So if you look at even the time she was on Bookle, scoop after scoop. And so for me, the best example when people ask about this Uh and you saw it was u The reporting that they did on the run up to the war, Netanyahu, inside the situation room and what was said To me, that was revelatory and eye opening. and they broke that in our paper You know, months before the book, I think came out last week and that was back in March, I think. So they did that But how did that develop? Was that just more of you guys, you guys were constantly going, Hey, this this We gott to do this because we're about to go to war We explained how we got. Yeah, I think it was six weeks after the war started and they got So it felt incredibly timely and urgent. And as you know, when you're writing a book, you're having all these conversations, but you also have to fact check like crazy, especially're gonna publish something, you know, in the New York Times There's just a whole process to confirmation of that stuff. So they were doing it in real time, breaking off pieces And this was one where they really let us know. and that felt like it landed, you know, when the country was really grappling with How the hell did we get here? What were the decision points? Well, here's the reporting in real time. So you know, there's a level of depth that comes with book reporting and there's a level of candor that sometimes you can get. That right and I feel like they are sort of u model journalists in the way that they balance both you know, breaking timely news, but also delivering a book as you say that like has a certain impact and it felt to me like There was a frame and an arc to that story And just a precision of the reporting that you just don't see anywhere else. I mean, even when the u peopleople are inside the situation room talking about the Epstein files and like what to do about their boss and he's in there. and there's just to me, it was very eye opening. 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This is Ke on Miller from OK Storyime. So I have a furry friend named Mia She's literally bundle of joy and love who can never get enough pets, cuddles, and attention. To me, she's more than a pet, she's practically family And I love my pets Part of that love is what's best for them. And for my dog, that includes the best diet At Cinx, all dogs deserve to eat well. Jinx has premium all natural food, toppers, and treats to transform your dog's health and happiness no matter your dog's size or age Jinx's number one ingredient is high quality protein like Atlantic salmon, cage free chicken, grass fed beef, and lamb to support strong muscles and heart health. Jinx never has any fillers like corn, wheat, or soy. For meia, I get her the mini biscuits, meal toppers, kibble, the kibble sauce, and ready meals. But for her, I think she loves the mini biscuits the most, just because she loves the taste and not to mention The sound of the crrutch. Jinx offers plenty of healthy and fun options for your dog Shop at national retailers like Walmart, Petmart, Chhewy or Amazon. How do you want to spend your D? At Wrightview Senior Livving commommunities, you decide and will take care of the rest. Pamper yourself at the salon and pursue your creative passions. Toast with your friends at happappy Hour and savor chef prepared meals, close out the day with a concert just down the hall from your apartment, or simply relax. The choice is yours. Enjoy the comforts of home and the security of award winning care Discover the possibilities at Brightviewsenorliving. com No, but I guess what I would say to anybody that's like saying that they held for the book, and I would say is if the point is to make sure people are reading your work and consuming your work And if these are vital stories for understanding where the Republic stands literally at this moment book is more impactful way to do that Yeah. Yeah. I mean, u It's an interesting question for us because You know, the The number of people who write books on our staff, You know, I got to the Times in zero seven and it's definitely more. Doesn't the book deal come with the Tes hiring? I'm half kidding right now. But certainly plenty of Times reporters want to believe that, right? And so It I think you're about to bring up something that I am curious about, which is Youve got a lot of reporters that want to write a book B You know, you can't let them all go on Book leave at the same time, you know? And And so that has to also be a balance, correct Yeah, that's that is a real balance and also u You know, there it's kind of fascinating to me just the kindinds of people go through a little process here if they want to write a book Some people are covering beat like Trump and they're like, I want to go deeper on this and here's how I want to do it. and here's how I' manage my beat Some people are saying I cover this beat. And actually I want to spend a year writing about Buddhist poetry and Please give me time to do that so that my brain won't hurt in the same way. so and we've had people write novels U we've had, you know, people go into, you know, you probably know Sleichman is in trouble, Taffy. ner wrote this novel that became a streaming series. So now you have the introduction of Hollywood and So it's not like It's not like it was when I was coming up in kindind of small journalism Right Um Let's talk about what you guys are doing in polling You know, it's funny, you've been at the times a long time and I'll just be honest before this partnership with Santa. Time's reputation in polling was not good is' not cling community U It's national bl was not great. It was that CBS partnership. It was always There were more outliers that always felt like coming out of the t. It was the one of the I remember back in the old holid days it would be like, what it is that Why does they Gest news organization put up with this. That just that would be our sort of. And look, you guys done to me a dramatic one hundred eighty. It's a much more rigorous. polling unit you've created Nate Coh really works hard on these things. And as more news organizations can't afford quality state polls I mean, right now it's you and ARP If I didn't have you ARP and occasionally, the Fox News polling unit who I think is a very good polling unit They're the only ones doing quality state level polling pretty expensive stuff And you can easily have a bean counter say to you, you're not getting your bang for your buck here Oh yeah. I mean, this is a big investment area. There are a few investment areas. I should probably mention. O is polling, one is data. And u, we can get to video, which is another huge area of expansion U But it's really important for us because we have, I think Chuck You know, I'm just thinking about midterm cycles. I think we're spending double on polling right now. That's an investment that the publisher was willing to make. And it's partly because like other organizations, we set up a poll tracker. Let's see what's happening in Michigan You know, you look at quality polling. Yeah, that's right. No, you have it's usually a bunch of partisan polls that you kind of have to like, okay You know, how much do I weigh this, you know, you know, all that stuff? And you get really flukey stuff and you sense how hungry the electorate and the people who care about politics in that state are and they stop they start sharing their own internals and you feel kind of lost. Now the good thing for us is it feels like we can go out into these states. you saw we just did the six areas where the Democrats are hoping to make there are two states that I You didn't do that I I was like, where' that state? you know, Michigan and Nebraska. So Nebraska is interesting. Hintch in, whereere's my Michigan numbers? I know you There's no way you're skipping Michigan I'm waiting to see what you guys are doing with Michigan here. but anyway U But in terms of polling, look, the part of it is obviously these races are of huge consequence in what happens in the midterms and in terms of the Trump agenda is huge. But honestly, it's also a way for us to take the temperature on these other issues that our readers are so interested in. I mean, you've seen this, but the the Shift on Israel is like something I haven't experienced in a very long time. The only thing that has moved this fast culturally is same sex marriage Same sex marriage. Yeah.' sort of something that was a given and then sudenly wasn't R type of thing, right where everybody was over here and then suddenly everybody went over here E It is I can't it's about That's always been the that always always the issue. I always say what's is anything moved fast? It's like that is something that moved fast. I mean, we were Banning them inzero four banning same sex marriage in every swing state that like every single this is two thousand four. This was I always say, this was nineteen eighty four, you know,. And and literally by twenty twelve, it's legal everywhere. you know But the Israel thing is especially interesting, as you can imagine being here in New York you know, where it was an issue on some of the college campuses, the protests. there's a significant Jewish demographic in terms of the electorate and the history of who represents New York and kind of the support for Israel and just watching that get Wobbly and then the distance now is something that has been very eye opening. but I do think Gan, very recently I was covering I was in New York, covering a pretty big gathering of sort of Jewish activists. Yeah. And they did their shout out to the local officials that showed up for it and there was one And I was like there was one. And it was like one of those I'm like, you know, literally in nineteen ninety seven It would have taken an hour to read every local elected official that showed up to this the Sen e events. And it was just, you could see this is This is shifted not just in the grassroots, but also in that sort of elite circles too in here. Right, right U So some of the so some of that investment that we're making is to pick up on those things and to help reporters dig deeper You probably saw Shane Goldmarker had a pretty good story where he went deep on this whole question of and the working class and kind of where are the shifts happening now in terms of is Trump losing support among the voters that shifted toward him just as recently as twenty twenty four. Um And, you know, I gota mention as we're talking about polls and politics We got to tell these stories in ways that are accessible a new generation of news consumers. So a big area where we're investing in terms of politics, but in terms of news internationally and elsewhere is video. L you got to be able to put Nate Cohn on video and explain to you what's going on and why they should care and to do that in a way that's concise and authoritative. And so I think Monthly now, we're doing about seventy five hours of video, which is a huge increase. And so the newsroom has really embraced it. I think there wasitally you know, people were a little tentative or as you know You gott to be there. No, I I, you know, I I tell myself, I have to tell remind myself of the break I caught. So when we started a political website in partnership when I was back at National Journal We started it in partnership with the Washington Post and ABC News and Newsek. This is in nineteen ninety five, nineteen ninety six And the dirty little secret was nobody at the Washington Post, ABC or Newsweek wanted to write for the internet So it was twenty three year old me that got to write for the internet. And it was a whole bunch of us twenty somethings that got to write for the internet because none of them under the auspices of this political website of the Washington Post, ABC News and Newsweek, and you know, it's a story I like to tell. Like I have to tell myself, don't be a snob about technology. The biggest problem in journalism is and I do it, I'm like I roll my eyes at TikTok Right I fully confess, right? Oh geez. or really, I got to do an what do I what is what's the best way to do WhatsApp? What? you know? and like I, you know, I get the and I'm like, ye and David Broder thought writing for the interternet was a waste of time in nineteen ninety five, right? Like, you know, so I, you know, I don't want to be that that guy. And I think every I think now more and more journalists realize that you got to Gott to be platform neutral. That' exactly. And I say that and I have yet to on a Twitch stream, have you No no, but I'm waiting for you. The most, I think last year I think this is wrong, but maybe in the last sixteen months or so, one of the most watched videos was Maggie Habrerman after Trump got initially convicted in his New York trial. And she was just walking you through what happened in the courtroom, what it meant. And you think what you have to do is like you got to take, you got to marry the expertise of reporters like that with the forms that feel accessible to whatever generation of readers. And so we're always trying new things. We're always looking for ways to reach new audiences And you're absolutely right. I mean, even like newsletters bringing people into what we are doing and making them feel like The New York Times is a place that is helpful for their understanding of the world Let's talk about two sort of perception challenges and some of them are real challenges and some of them are just perceived and sort of manufactured ninety percent of the criticism of the coverage of the times is usually through the prism of the oped page and the editorial page. It is not about the actual reporting or the journalists. It is about the perception, right? I mean, trust me, I sort of experienced this myself through the prism of NBC versus MSNBC, right which we had this naive notion, Oh, MSNBC is just the op ed page of NBC news We tried that spin for a while. That didn't work out so well and But h shouldh the opinion section be spot off completely and it should be still branded New York Times opinion Should it be merged? I will tell you where I struggle. and I say this as a reader I know there's a bright line between the editorial side and the opinion side. But if I consume the app, I love the app. I think you guys are the best app of all of them because there's still this feeling of scrolling through a newspaper in that I can go section to section. I enjoy accidentally reading stuff. I missed that that's I love it So that's the The beauty of this. But you guys spend a lot of time promoting the opinion section It's clearly a traffic driver And so that's always like because to me, audience capture is a concern and any of us doing this in this news independent news world, which is where suddenly your audience is pushing you away from certain stories because they won't like it if you go down that road versus, you know, if you go, right, there's all this. So What are your safeguards And would you like to see more of a brighter line publicly between the opinion section. because you guys merge it and sometimes I always say, you know, the photos of the opinion writer seem to be bigger than the photos of the journalists and I'm always like, I'd rather to me, the journalists are the stars of the times but I'm I I'm I'm a wantanna being stain wrench. they're they they're sometimes better looking in their photos. I got to say a couple things. One, I just want to say one thing on audience capture because I think about this a lot Mh There are a lot of things you can criticize the New York Times for and people do. they have strong feelings about it. I do think We are not We are a place that is sending people to the Congo for Ebola. We are people we cover classical music. We are guided by audience captuure. We're lucky to have this business structure where, you know, where I'm not looking to as a reporter, say, I have to get my clicks or I have to get page views or something. That's not the value system I would say this about u The um The opinion content is is an important way for people to understand our analysis of the world and to come to familiar voices. many of you, many of whom you know, like a'm more endowed on a Saturday, people w However I do think that what you're driving at is that we need to do a better job. If someone like you who's very sophisticated and lives in the news world you know, you have this observation, peopleeople who are far less sophisticated about what is the New York Times understand the difference. And it's something that we're really working on. We have Pat Healy who, you know, is, you know doing a We've got to sort of guide the reader a little bit more. One thing we did, we made some changes to the design of the opinion content. to try to distinguish it more from news You know, the place where I really noticed it Uh A Biden's disastrous debate performance with Trump You sort of had a number of opinion call on this coming out and saying, you know, Biden she needs to step aside. So there was kind of a parade of that. And so what should that look like on the app? and making sure that that feels different from our news coverage, which was also very dynamic. So you know, we are the beneficiaries of having a very well resourced newsroom and a very well resourced opinion deepartment But I think you're getting at something important, which is articulating what is different Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and lots of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. 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And I think the question was Are the standards at the opinion section when it comes to fact checking, you know, how much do we know for sure it's the same standards, right? because we know And I think It to me was a fair question to ask if you're from the outside because we know A columnist gets a bit more leeway than a than somebody writing even news analysis, right? A Peter Baker news analysis piece is going to get the fact checker scrutiny that and I'm not saying fact checks aren't getting the scrutiny on the opinion page, but there's sort of that there's a it's just slightly different I mean, you know And so But is it? you know, in that specific case Was the good old fashioned New York Times fact checkers on this or was it was it treated slightly differently Yeah, the I mean, I'm obviously not involved in the production of the opinion pieces or Nicks piece. I know that they they obviously have spoken to this and they have a checking system. I think what you're getting at is a little bit different, which is point of view U and coming at something and presenting it it's not so much, do they have fact checkers? It's presenting something with a point of view and through that framework. That's the essence of what they do. What we're doing is obviously something different No, and I just think that the problem is, I know you're doing that. I went through this argument all the time internally. Yeah. And it took frankly, and NBC didn't act until it's been too late, right? They didn't spin off M NBC until it was too late, I think personally. But it was the same issue, which is we know there's a difference What does the public see Right? What is the, you know? and I always said the peacock was on M show and the peacock was on Rachel's show. and the Pacock was and there are plenty of people who don't see the distinction Why are we making the viewer do more work or the reader do more work to understand your system, right? type of thing. And that's always to me, that's the line I feel like you have to you have to find it And find a way to walk Well, I get that, I mean, part of what you're getting at is news literacy and part of what we need to do better. I think and what we are investing in doing better is telling our story, you know basically explaining and describing how we do our work U, and it's sort of amazing to me still How many people imagine that reporters are at their desk coming up with takes when they're out, you know in the country or they're out on Capitol Hill and they are checking things with with sources and but we have we, you know, I need to cop to it. I've been in this business for a while. I don't think we've done a great job of explaining what it means to be a reporter, what it means to confirm facts, what it means to get a story ready for a place like NBC or the New York Times. And that's partly why we are trying to You know, be really forthright Some of the videos that we're doing, frankly, are just explaining what we do and want in answering the kinds of questions that you have, like about like how do we handle it when someone wants to write a book it was As you know on social media, some narrative will take hold and it could be wildly off But it's up to us to Respond What are the other U things that I think I worry about with myself and my own coverage U is geography capture, if you will, right. And that is You know, I've often I've often joked, if the capital of the media world were Topeika instead of New York City, I promise you the coverage of religion would be different That's right And that because you just the local culture of church going and stuff would be different. It would sort of its way into the system, right? So Um I have been heartened by one of the trends that I've noticed at the times, which is that you are trying to have people geographically located outside of the Acella corridor. like whether it's trying to remember the reporter, but there was one of your political reporters based in Cincinnati. And I'm like, good. I want to know that your industrial Midwest reporter actually lives in the industrial Midwest, right? And those sort of things How much are you doing that? What is your balance of political staff not based in DC New Yk versus based in DC and New York I mean, this is a huge effort of ours and frankly, an obsession of mine. the kinds of conversations that you and I have had this conversation years ago in different ways we backack when we were both sort of, is there ways we can work together better? Like is can we do some things because we had the same issue. We wanted to be We you know, we had our Mbed program that was that had a lot of success with it and you guys did, I mean, we were constantly worried about this issue. But back then, you still felt, like you needed a lion share of these reporters in your own newsroom in New York and DC, right? You couldn't afford to let them live in these other locations I sense that's changed. That's changed. And you mentioned religion. I mean, one of our best reporters, Ruth Graham is down in Texas. She covers u, you know, mainly covers Christianity and That contactxts that she has withith ministers, with pastors, with headads of Ces, congregations, members of congregations, the conversations that she has, you know, you call Rh Graham and she's sitting in the kitchen of a pastor of a church who's going to be in a story. And it's just a different level of trust. It's just different level of familiarity. The people we have in Georgia You know, the investment that we've made there and in some of the other states like in the SEC corridor, which you're familiar with It just it really makes a difference. And then when something happens, like in Rome, Georgia, when they had the COVID outbreak or some of the political fights, you know, you have a different level of granularity. These are people who are living in these places. They know the cost of living in these places. They know frankly, where the traffic , you know, problems are the airport it's just a different context So I think Arthur Sulzwger AG is really thoughtful about this. We want to be everywhere And we don't want to be what they used to call a toe touch. You know, Johnny Apple would come in and parachute in and and it did change the byline. There it is, you know in Saratoga, you. And readers see through that, you know, immediately. So it really matters if you're in places like Ohio, if you're in places like Western Pennsylvania And readers sense it and It's it's actually good for us's it's kind of a way of giving a reporter an experience and also hiring people. We're hiring people who are in Texas, who know Texas Right. You know, and it's really helping our coverage overall. Well, and I'm just going to be cass about it. It's when you're in when you're kind of by yourself in a geographic location away from the main the main parts of where the decisions are being made and stuff. You really find out who can sink or swim and you realize I mean, the stars you develop and the stars we were able to develop with our embeds like we just throughrew these, you know, obviously you try to hire people that you thought could be could handle it But you know Every best pter that we were able to develop over the last twenty years Almost all of them came through our Mbed program because frankly they hadd a golden They had to go do that. And I'm like, you just have to go start meeting people. I'll give you four or five people to start calling. But after that, just, you know, go go, go, go go. and It's a great way to separate you know, basically the career journalists from those that Don't have it That's exactly right. those and you know, we we elevated somebody out of Florida and, you know, the politics editors saying They knew she would do so well becausecause the way that she owned Florida and that system like she knew everyone, she knew how to get to them, she knew who to trust. And like, you know, I felt like people who came out of Massachusetts and New York politics, you got to see a little bit of what they could do And so we want to do that all over the country and we're lucky enough to have kind of areas where we're growing these hubs And that to me is the future and and we can also work in partnership with some of the locals organizations. Where are you strongest outside of New York and where are you looking for whereere do you where you this is your time to ask your bosses fite publicly for more investment. Where do you feel a little underserved Look, I love that we're investing in Texas for a couple of reasons. I think it is the best story right now just in terms of the future of America where things are going. You sort of have everything there. You got urban, you got agricultural, you got demographic groups Um, so we're creating a news hub there U So that means that you'd be doing deeper political stories, but you also the news of the day, if something happens, people who know those comm who know Houston or Fort Worth going to be on it So to me, that's a really good model. So you'll get a Texas perspective on a spike in gas prices as well as you sort of The typical stuff that had been done. And I know that that seems like a silly thing, but geographic diversity and reacting to a story, I mean, that's the American political electorate. You got to have those things. I mean, the other places where we're doing that are like agricultural manufacturing. You know, we're strong in the southeast part of the US and we're getting stronger and stronger in the Midwest. Minnesota U certainly like Wisconsin, Jilly Bosman can kind of own Wisconsin. So some of those areas, the mountain West is also like generenationally and growth wise a really important area for us So it feels to me like a true national strategy. You want to have somebody in every state and you want to keep developing the next generation of journalists and instilling those values out there U I think one of the hardest things to do right now in covering Washington and the Trump administration is dealing dealing with a source that you know is lying to you But it is the on the record statement. it is the or even on background explanations. And certainly you guys do a good job of identifying, you know, here's, you know, it'll be this. and then here's this, you know, statement from them I think this has been a very difficult thing for all of us in journalism to convey the sort of This is unprecedented This is unique, this is different. this is U And I know I'm out of vocabulary you know, type of thing And You know, there's always been this pressure you guys get put under Just say it sayay it in the lead of the story. you know, the Trump administration lied about this today, you know And you're like, look The L word is a, you know, That's motive And you know I'm I'm always you know You know, you got to you You can't none of us know how to crawl inside of other people's heads, right? You know, we don't know Is somebody misleading us on purpose? Maybe they've been misled, right? There's always there's a potential explanation in you, the journalists can't eliminate any of the outcomes. Yeah Be. There's a pattern here. Right. And we know there's a pattern here. And while you can show a pattern maybe every once in a while, like Peter Baker will do terrific, you know, news or news analysis that sort of strings all this together. Um The day to day It's a real challenge. I mean, is it do you have a hard and fast rule. I mean, how have you guys wanted to tackle this when it's just sort of Literally, they want to tell you the sun is rising in the west. You know this isn't true, but you have to cover what they're saying Yeah. I mean, I was part of the I think the first conversation about whether to put lying on the front page back in twenty sixteen, which was I used falsehoods and I got criticized for using falsehoods And that's what I used in my infamous Kellyanne back and forth. I said, you know, that was, you know And there's a re if during the v I Ill never forid I thought about saying lie. I was like, I'm not handing He. defense to hang herself on. How do you know we're lying? That's, you know, that I can't believe you're calling somebody a liar, right? You get I wanted to avoid going down that rabbit hole and keep the focus on the on the on the on on the falsehood is like rightight right. And and I got critiqued for like quote pulling my punches and I'm like, I didn't feel like I pulled a punch I was being as accurate as I could be in that moment. Well, that's the thing. I mean, in terms of accuracy, you have to be able to show intent. The story that we called Trump described him as lying. which you'll remember is when he came out And it was over the Birther thing, his attack on Obama and said it started with Hillary Clinton. And so we did a very direct story. Dean Beckquet, Michael Mow and I had a really long conversation about how to do that and how to make sure we were signaling to the leader how we knew that. And I think, you know Quite honestly, some of the journalistic conventions and forumms were not ready for Trump in terms of this very question that you're getting at. And there was a little bit of a way, I think initially throughout the media that the forms themselves lagged what people what people want very direct I don't think hyperbolic but very direct description of what is happening and what we can say I have said that yeah, I have said, for instance, I will confess to have rounding the edges over the years. because you you're, you know, I look, I took very definition of being a broadcaster broadcast network which meant I had a broad audience. I was trying to speak to the largest group of people to trust or at least at least consider what I was reporting to them, et cetera So I did believe you had to round some edges because I'm widening the aperture And then there was a point, I'm like, you know, we have to stop rounding the edges Right. And And now it's a fine line, like it doesn't mean you're between being straightforward and coming across as an activist Right, right. No, I think that's right. And look, there's going to be scrutiny of There's going to be a lot of wordsmithing and I get it. and people really care about how we describe this stuff. I feel proudest are reporting about the Department of Justice and what they are doing and with that level of precision and directness about how the Department of Justice is being used by this president That's the kind of thing. I think Joe Khan, who's our executive editor He does not want language to be hysterical. He wants it to be very direct and forthright. and that's what we're trying to do No, the words themselves matter, right? because it is It is it's like you don't want to makeake it fuzzy, right? You're not trying to blur things Um But it's the high it's it It's the hyperbole. Like it's why I think the corruption stories don't hit anymore And and so I think the corruption stories don't hit. It's because we've it's the it's my it's a my broken windows theory of corruption of political corruption, meaning Take the Ruben Gallego story. Okay, so Ruben Gaig is being investigated for basically using his political campaign fund for personal expenses If you scrutinize ninety seven of one hundred senators in how they use their campaign money, I'm sure they've all done this and some are moreus abusive of the process, right? And so what I'm saying is that we've You know Over time We've Even us as reporters, you're like, yeah, that's just your typical that's that's the typical congressman rip off part of this. It's the price of doing business, right? whichich is that's a, you know another plane land safely at National Story. And it's unfortunate that it is, right? It goes to it's like the broken windows theory, right? If you let a few if you don't repair the broken windows, eventually, people will stop caring if something's happening in that community. If I think we've done this with corruption because there's so much low level sort of legalized wealth creation in the political space or expense abuse or whatever you want to call it that it has numbed us to the big stuff and I don't have a good answer to this. I think it's the genius of Trump, right? whichich is there's, you know, he is always able to say what about the what about is and is always technically there. Well That is true You know, Hunter Biden did make money off of his last name selling paintings And it is nowhere near the corruption of the crypto side of things, right? So I don't have a good answer to how to make how to, but I think that's my theory is why this doesn't land the way. It did in the seventies Well, you know, we don't have time to test this, but I would guess I would just say a couple things to that one. I think the scale of what u himself, the ways that he's benefiting, including our story today about I mean, it's eye popping amount of money. But they're numbers that don't even seem real you're just like, wow, the president of the United States pocketed two billion dollars as president What? It's very difficult to But I would say the impeachment investigation started yet? Like, it's one of I don't be like, you know, it's like There's a reason Jie Vance said Nick Nixon would be a ten hour story. Yeah comppared to this Well, there I guess I would push back on a couple things. One, I was really struck this week that the New York Post editorialized in favor or in support of some of our investigations into some of these questionable practices, I think that it resonates And This is a whole different show or conversation. but I think some of the agitation against the establishment is because people are really hurting economically and they're seeing people get rich in this way. I think it resonates. It's just It's not in the immediate way that you might have seen in the seventies. No, and I think that's right. It's taken a different. It is sort of It's like, well, I can't get to Trump, so I'm going to get to you Congresswoman to get like, you know what I mean? Like there's a and you know, u, you know, I can't I can't get to Trump. so sorry, Michael Bennet, I'm not promoting you to Gvernor. You know, That's just not going to happen. You' part of this system. you You either didn't do enough to prevent it And you're a bad police officer Or you're on the take too Right. Or you're not fighting it in a way that feels like if you look at Colorado last night, why did the AG Do better but it's because he's seen as hiding it. And I think a little bit of the frustration. I think It's not entirely unrelated to corruption. You know, it's funny, Caron, though, I' like had a flashback to the Tea Party because the biggest hit on both Michael Bennett and John Hickenlooper by their opponents wereere there votes to confirm handful of Trump cabinet secretaries. they voted to confirm the supposed less controversial ones like Brooke Rollins at USDA or and I'm like,