Revitalizing Civics Education

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It's how you show up for your family, your community, and everyone else that depends on you. That's why for one hundred and twenty five years, Firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind to deliver products that are as reliable as you are Firestone, always defendable since nineteen hundred This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you by Quince So summer always changes certainly how I get dressed. I want pieces that feel lighter, are more breathable, things that are easy, but still put together so I don't look like a schub with you guys, right So that's why I keep coming back to Quintince. I mean, they really are partart of my wardrobe these days, they focus on high quality essentials feel and look amazing. It's breathable linen Soft organic cotton easy to clean. you're not throwing it at the dry cleaner and all that business. 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You have progressives very loudly wanting to shift the party in one direction. and then you've got what Uh was in the nineties called the DLC. U the Bill Clinton wing of the party, maybe the Blue Dgs, however you want to call it, the sort of center left. U, And one could argue they the center left has suffered from Not having a name that everybody is comfortable with that doesn't sound like it's a pejorative U when you things like that. Well My guest today is Debbie Cox Bolton. She is the head of New Dem leaders, which bills itself as a center left group Um and trying to see if they can come up with the agenda that can keep a majority coalition together. Debbie, welcome to the podcast Thanks so much for having me. Areciate it. Let me start with that branding issue because we a lot of times, you know, when I'm on on the air doing election coverage, you know, we'll talk about a Democratic primary and it's the progressive candidate versus sometimes is it mainstream? Well, that can be offensive to people in the progressive boom. Okay, we're mainstream too. Is it legacy? Well, that sounds like the little derogatory, right? whichich is pragmatic, well, sometimes those in the center left saying, this is not about pragma. We're not compromising. This is a belief system, which is I feel like the center left doesn't have a good brand yet. like the one moniker that doesn't feel like there's a hidden pejorative in how you describe the center left Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think that a lot of the words that people think of now as dirty by compromise and we're calling the collaboration now. Collaboration I've using language like cross partisan. We don't say bipartisan anymore. Yeah ye. I take your point. I mean, if I have to say one thing about New deeal leaders and and other folks in our kind of center left ecosystem, I'd call it to get shit Democrats, to be honest with you. And if you think about some of the governors that kind of govern in that way, a lot of whom are being band about for maybe presidential twenty eight. a lot of them, I think fall under that category, whether it's Josh Shapiro or Andy Bashir or Gretchen Whitmare kind of to fix the roads, make government work for people. I think that's really If I had to if I would want someone to think about the center left and what would that mean? I would be very happy if that's what they thought about. You know, it's interesting governors are always been sort of the place that, you know, whether when the Republican Party is trying to present itself as reformers, they'll point to governors, when the Democratic Party wants to say, hey, we've got reformers point to governors. And obviously there's a lot more leeway you get as a governor. U ideologically and there's an expectation of getting stuff done that allows you to sort of get away with compromising that maybe as a legislature legislator, you don't have that luxury on this front Um, I mean, it because it seems to be it's always the case that the governors are where you at least see stuff happen. Yeah. I mean, so with New Deal, we are a group of Carefully chosen, center left, pragmatic, whatever we you want to want to call it, state and local elected officials below the level of governor. So a lot of our folks have risen up. We have three governors now who came through New Deal. But I would also add to what you just said is mayors and county officials, kind of those executive branch folks and the pipeline of those people who are having to fix the potholes or bounce the budget in a way that legislative bodies often, as you say kind You know, you can get a win by just scoring a political point. You don't actually have to to deliver. That is a distinction, obviously. We still have we have a lot of state legislators that we work with. They're doing great things too. But there is a difference when you have to actually when the buck stops here, if you will, with some of the executives. What you just described to me sounds like the old DLC Democratic leadeadership cououncil, which was started in the mid eighties, sort of after Mondeo when the sort of old labor liberalism was seen as sort of a tired uh, a tired organizing Aam messaging outlet for the Democrats and those that were trying to sort of shift the party to not being so antagonistic towards business back in the day. Yeah, that would be I would argue the sort of the I think Alphfon would agree with that description. He was the founder of the DLC What What's different and what's the same about what you're doing Yeah, yeah. so I spent fifteen years at the DLC and was At Chief of Staff at one point. and so I'm quite familiar. And I mean, look, I really grew up there to be honest with you. so I think that there are some things that I feel like are common DNA that I really learned lessons there is the most of which was you' we've got to modernize progressive politics for the twenty first century. if nothing else. It was that you can't stay still, that you've got to have bold experimentation, that you've got to stick true to your values. I think that some of the DLC words like responsibility, opportunity and community still ring really true Um, but that, you know, you've got to be willing to do things differently for different ages. You also have to be willing to say when something's not working and say, that was great. We tried that. you know, we haven't you know, a vision for why that might work. So I think there's a lot of that DNA in New Deal. I'd also say that as Democrats who believe that government can do good things, we have a special responsibility to make it work well as Democrats. And I think that's another piece that sometimes we don't always focus on across the party lines is how do we actually make sure the government is delivering resultves? So some of those things there's definitely some similarities there in our outlook, if you will. I think a big difference between DLC and New Deal is know and we were joking up before we came on that a lot of the new dealiers that we work with that are you know, in their twies or thirties might not even know what the DLC is. So this is not, you know, some kind of veiled new DLC, but it does in our charterin when the you know when the uh, when the website Daily Coost first came up and running I think their North star was outing anybody that had ever been a member of the DLC and ostracizing them from the Democratic coalition.. I think that's right. I think that's right. And the thing that I love about the Neweal leaders that we work with, they don't always feel like they have to choose. You kind of make that, you insinuated that we were talking about governors. know they don't feel like we do in Washington sometimes that we have to loudly declare ourselves which part of the party we're on. They can build these kind of broad coalitions. But you the other thing that I would just say that is very unique about New Zealand is kind of our North star is that we go out and choose elected officials to be part of New Deal. so we have a we're very picky about a twenty percent acceptance rate of people who are nominated and then joined. And we're looking for really the most exceptional, pragmatic, effective, and rising state and local elected officials. And we feel like our job is to help them govern effectively because why I said? becausecause we think that that is actually the best politics. If you govern well, you'll rise up the ranks and change the trajectory of our party and our country. But also that we give them a platform. I feel like if New Deal leaders were speaking for the Democratic Party, there'd be a lot of people who currently are like, I'm not sure that's my Democratic Party who would say But wait, that sounds right. That doesn't sound crazy. I feel like that that person's speaking to me. So we try to do both things, help them govern and then give them a platform for their voices. So you're not incubating people to run for office. You're trying to find them after they've been elected correct, whichich is a really unique space for us. There's a lot of people who are focused on elections, which is super important and the campaign side of things, we work on the governing side of the house. And my thought, again, I think that our kind of DNA is that if We pick people who can govern well when they are city council and then go to mayor and then go to governor, that this pipeline will serve us well. and it's worked. We've been doing this for fifteen years. We have now three governors, Josh Sapiro, Josh Stein, and Matt Meyer who were New Deal leaders. Pete Buttjge, obviously, probably the most famous New Deal alum, and nineteen members of Congress who started out as city council members or state legislators who are now three in the US Senate and sixteen in the US House. So the pipeline over fifteen years has really shown itself to be to be vibrant and important. And I would say that, you know, the other thing is we're not out there trying to just to tell them they should do. I think a lot of you the two things. One is people who are looking at elections kind of think that we'll just elect the right people and then that will be it. And to me, it's like that's just people run for office they can do something. So who's there to help them once they get into office to share and spread good ideas, to have those kind of skill development things they need. So we would never do that with a CEO. and these are the most These are people who are affecting our daily lives probably more than the average CEO. So who's helping them once they get elected? And then secondly, you know, this idea that again, as they're rising up the ranks, that will change kind of the whole brand of Democratic Party. and we think that that's really important Well, this is gets it to look, this is a fight. for control of the brand, it feels like as much as anything, right? And And the fact of the matter and look, I we began our discussion I'm offline. Pew Center put out it's semi annual. They've done this nine times in forty years. So I guess they do it about every three or four years A typology report trying to cut basically saying, hey, Americans don't fit easily into two categories. They actually fit into like nine, right Um, and Here's what your challenge is from the place you come from And I think where you or those that are more empathetic and sympathetic to what you're preaching. come from is that byy nature, it's not allowed of the Democratic coalition And in fact, when you You know, I always say they you know I prefer moderate in temperament. That doesn't mean I prefer that in my b ideological politics, but I think that confuse moderation sometimes between temperament and compromise And The loudest voices Online and the dominant conversation in the left and the right is dominated by those that are online. And according to Pew two groups that are the most online are these two loud basasses. It's basically MAGa and and the progressives And they're super wired dictating the conversation And it's drowning out what is a majority of everybody else. You know, if they're in the fifteen yard lines Everybody else is somewhere in the middle and they don't like the loudness, but they can't break through Yeah. C you break can you be a radical moderate? Can you be a PT Barnum and moderate, right? Yeah. I like that actually we want to be the PT Barnum moderate Yeah, I mean we have to be, right? I would say two things. One I completely agree with you that I think that I nothing frustrates me more than this idea that if you are ragmatic or you know, results oriented, you're somehow mushy the mushy middle concept. Marlexander complains about this at his memoir and he goes, just because I talk with the other side doesn't mean I'm not conservative anymore. Like this like this is my belief system. I just know how the God starred organization works. You know know exactly right. And I think on the Democratic side right now, you know, we hear this a lot, right? that you know, what do Democrats want? They want to fighter? And I just absolutely reject the notion fighting equals only yelling louder. I just like reject that notion. Like what you know your own polling shows it. It is one of those. I don't know how people simultaneously say they want a fighter who compromises. Right. Exactly. I want a fighter. and I want people by eighty percent want to, you know people to work for us. Sometimes the voters don't know everything that they want. they don'. But I think I mean, I think what they want are people who are fighting for them, right? And so and that is a little bit different than just fighting for fighting's sake But the other point I wanted to make on your point about the online thing. I mean, I always get surprised when I'm reminded Like as a percentage of Democratic primary voters, I think I saw something from thirird way recently that post Oline daily or weekly is something crazy. donon't quote me, but twenty percent of you know, Democratic primary voters are online, daily or provide ninety percent of the left wing content. Exactly. And this is the problem, right? So to try to remind candidates, to try to remind elected officials, to try to try to rem voters that those people who are the loudest do not, you know, I just do not speak for the majority of people. And it's a problem not just for our brand, which I agree with, but it's also a problem for our politics. I mean, basically like people are just tuning out and they you know, there's also something recently about, you know, I think it was New York Times about, you know, are you over the last five or ten years more likely or less likely to say something out loud, you know, if you're a moderate or a liberal and liberals have gotten more invbolened and moderates are feeling less, you know, like they want to stick their head out because they're afraid it's going to get whacked off. And so, you know, that's that's a challenge again, not just for the brand, but for our politics. area of our life, do we not We have to, you know, always agree with people, right? that you can, you know, I mean, that's not true with my husband. That's not true with my kids. That's not true with my coworkers. So I think we've got to get to a different politics where we can have those forums where you can have people model people disagreeing in kind of a you know, a more civil and, you know, constructed way. Look, I mean, I think we We all know this We all say we want this yet When given the opportunity, we don't take it Well, is that true or is it that and I'd be curious yeah to know what you mean by that sentence, but I also feel like it's also probably worth noting that it's not just online that I feel like these conft this is happening. I think this is also spilled out, not I mean, the media plays a hugely important role, but it is very much like with the clicks needed that it's easier to get the extremes fighting on TV. So it's kind of everywhere. It's not just online It's almost everywhere This gets it to the incentive structures, right? And that Yes. And this to me is another challenge for someone in your situation. and you know Thank. cl I'm trying to help some folks who are trying to break through who are not a member of either party We're trying to see if there's a voice for for sort of like, are you tired of this partisanship? Can't we get pragmatic solutions? Yeah. Yeah. You know, the hard part of it is Um, is that The system rewards sort of outlandish the system rewards. I mean, in some ways the The more you're the main character of a story, it doesn't matter whether you're the villain or the hero If you're the main character Y brand equity is going to go up. I mean, we can kind have a long debate. this Grand Platinner situation is the most fascinating social experiment as far as I'm concerned. Is that the exact the description we're going with? Okay. Well I'm going to go with that as far as the left the Democrats are concerned. I think Yeah. My greatest fear of a second Trump term was that it was going to change the left more than it was going to change the right. And I do think we've seen this already and that they hold if you can't beat them, join them And I hear progressives all the time going I want my own Tump. U I want to I want to be able to run roughhot through the executive branch, the way he has And it's sort of like, well wait a minute, I thought you guys were the party of institutions and the party of this. and And I have a feeling that are we in the middle of a realignment where the institutionalists are going to be between the center left and the center right? because what you described about your frustration with what's happening on the Democratic side is almost identical to what Paul Ryan would tell you is happening in the right Yeah which is these loud voices are over consonsuming and those that are in the sort of Romney Wright are sometimes afraid to speak out. They'll get their head cut off. you know, all of everything you said could apply easily to this group and some people on the left saying, yeah, it's those spineless people. And so those on the right say the same thing about the center left ends and you're like Try living in that space and then tell me what kind how spineless they are. Yeah. No, might be the issue Yeah, no. Well, look, and I do think you're absolutely right, of course, the incentive structure and this idea that, you know reallyally the goal is to build a brand for yourself, you know, is a problem. I think it's more true at the federal level to, you know, the state and local elected officials that I work with. I mean, I have I'm lucky. P peopleople ask me all the time like, why do you keep doing this? They probably ask you this too. Like why are you stay want to keep talking about this? Why do you stay in this fight? And the truth is that I don't know that I would if I had not, if I wasn't working with state and local elected officials all over the country who despite who are running not like Despite of what's happening but because of what's happening. They see this as almost like a public service to be in public life right now, to try to make a difference, to try to deliver results. And so, you know, your average mayor, you know, probably not, you know, the first person think people think of when they're online, right? And so you know, they're out there, really, they're working across the aisle. I mean, you know, we work with the folks in Alaska who have a bipartisan bowling league still. I mean, there there are such bright spots out there about actually government working and what so my frustration goal a lot of the time is how do we, you know, bring those stories forward so that we're not only hearing about, you know what we're talking about at the federal level This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you by Eethos. And what Eethos does is it helps you find life insurance. Let me tell you why life insurance bailed me out. 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For durability, you can count on just like people Count on you Firestone, always dependable since nineteen hundred Well, I mean, well, let me, you know, which is look, I would argue the bases have hijacked political discourse. Yes. At the same time Y folks can't win without their support Right. It's part of the coalition on the left just like just like on the right, you know, Todd young and and and John Curtis can't win without the mega support. So you you find you're trying to find ways to to to get In some ways, the common ground is happening the attempts are happening more there than it is sort of between the the at the in the from the center left to the center right And I don't It feels to me that the progressives aren't interested in in a coalition at the moment Well, and we're in primary season. so I think this is heightened, right? I mean, let's be clear you have to win a lot more than the Democratic left to win in the generals, right? So, you know and tell this to my progressive friends all the time. I say the Democrat I said, you know, they're always complaining what it looks like, you know, conservatives. and I said, yeah, they have a bigger base. They need fewer moderates to get to fifty percent Democrats need more moderates to get to fifty percent. I'm sorry. it's a' an issue. It isn't anything. It is We have to win like sixty fivecent, seventy percent of moderates to win, right? And so there's no other way to say this except to say, I mean, I understand, again, we're in the primary fight and some of the, you know and I also kindind of reject that you know, there's been a little bit of a narrative that the left is, you know dominating elections. And I'm not saying that they're not doing well in a lot of places but I think it's been a mixed bag. I'm here in California, right? Javier Visera, Tom Syer, that one conveniently gets left off the list when people talk about this. So I think it's actually been a mixed bag, but you know, but what we are going to see is in the general election, how the different candidates do in some of these tougher districts because just what we said, the math does not work unless you can't just win your left. You gott to win into the center Well, it is interesting that you do have, I mean, I did a sort of halfway mark primaries or what is there's a distinction between Republican primary voters and Democratic primary voters this cycle. It is It does seem as if the perception of electability still matters a little bit more to the Democrats than it does the Republicans. Republicans are still They're still looking for disruptors and they'll they'll if give it if they think one can win, they'll they willll gravitate. If they they don't think they win, they won't do it. Like we saw that with Lindsey Graham surviving. Yeah. They're looking for that versus I don't think the left has gotten that nihilistic yet I think that's right. And I think a proof point on that, I would even go back to the twenty five elections, right where a lot of the thing was about know the New York mayayor, Mandami winning. But if you looked at Mandami and Abigail Spandberger and Mikey Cheryll, they all ran off on affordability. They all ran incredibly aci disciplined race unlike we did in twenty four on the issues that I think matter most to people and the cost of living specifically. Now, whether or not I agree with everything that the New York mayayor thought thinks that are the solutions to that I think that that is a kind of a proof point to you, which is like, I think people know that we have to at least talking about a broad set of issues that most people care about if we're going to win elections. And that's a good thing So Let's talk about some substance here because the other thing that came comes through in this typology report from Hgh is that voters under fifty are the ones that want more the most change Now there's different ways they've been cataloged into this and I don't The general sense is that thoseose that would like to see more disruption, more experimentation or younger Right? It's older voters that are looking for the stability looking for the civility. Right looking for the things that perhaps you and I kind of miss about our politics. Yeah And I'm mindful of that. Hey, you know,mm I'm, you know, that's there's a reason they call it over the hill, right? I'd like to think I just went over the hill, but it's still I know I'm on the other side of it. Yeah. And You know, can you, can you Is there such thing as pragmatic disruption? Absolutely. I mean, let's say, you know, let's talk about one in particular. I'm livid that we let Trump have Doge. Now Doge was a disaster. Do was a Doge was a you know, a disguised for burning the house down and not making government work. But you know since we're talking age, we're both old enough to remember Al Gore's reinventing government effort, which was squarely a democratic effort, which is to say, if we think government should work, we should make it work better.'s not when it's not working. So know exactly That was was the moment. Yeah. Exactly. And so we should have we should have owned this. We should have come out and said, lookook, there are, you know government is not delivering. How are we going to you know, reform it? Let's make it smaller, let's make it, you know, more effective. And yet we lost that, you know fight because we were not willing to ob be disruptors. And so I think that's just one example, But I think Democrats who believe in government actually like have a bigger respibility to be disruptors right now because we Republicans don't want government to work. It just self reinforces the whole argument that it's not working, right? And so I think Democrats have this special responsibility to actually deliver. And it's not just our politics and we know this, but I mean, this is right this is hand in glove with our democracy. This is I mean, you know, not hand in glove with how people feel about the next two hundred fifty years of America. So people do not have I'm not calling just enough to say that like we can, I don't want to think we should go back. And I also think that like restoring trust in government is I believe that, but that's a little bit know amorphous and what does that mean? But I do think that there are things that we can do to make people not feel like government is actively working against them. Even little things every day, whyy is it take so long on the phone? Why do I have to do another set of doctor know forms when I just did them? I mean, all those things We've got to focus on those things Customer service, treat the voters like their're customers Yeah. Treat the taxpayers like they their customers. Yeah. because they are to some extent, right? They a hundred percent are. They are customers. they pay for it That's right. They expect the services and you know, it's funny. It's like U I'm still to this day, you know, I'll get really upset if my county doesn't, you know, our trash or whatever like they're supposed to. And then when they when you call and they do it within a day, you're like, wow, that's pretty good. Like I'm always like, you know, that that's I'm sure it's pain in the pain in the took us to try to figure out everybody that was missed and go out and do it But, you know It's a pretty high functioning government in Arlington County. and they kind of also know that Arlington County has a bunch of super voters in it. And if they do mess up, they will get like husted. like it's one of those where it's responsive because they should be but because they actually know. Yeahah, this is half my constituents are lawyers, they'll somehow come after me if I get this wrong. O you'll see them in the grocery store line and remind them. Yeah. and local. Yeah. It does, like local politics understands that it's a customer service type of Ier. We haven't figured out how to bring that to the federal level. Yeah. But we have to. I one hundred percent. We have to. E other company does. E other like even those that, you know, I think customer service has never been worse because they're trying to automate it But why are they trying to automate it becausecause they're trying to time they hope to be more service oriented to their customers This is all this AI programming just doesn't work very well yet. No, that's right. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And you know, I'm Mark Dunkeleman, who wrote the G terrific book Why Nothing Works. you probably know of it is a friend. and you know, so to give Democrats the benefit of the doubt on this. I think there are kind of two competing instincts, which sometimes come to a head and we have to like, I think be thoughtful about this, which is, you know, we want to give everybody a voice in government, and then we also want government, you know government to do things. And so I do think that you know you're seeing a lot, we're seeing that a lot around the country where you know, here in California getting rid of some of our environmental laws that were keep making it harder to build housing, for example, that's happening in a lot of places. I think Democrats are finally saying, actually, some of our processes where one person can hold things up is maybe might have been born from a good instinct that everybody should get to say something, but it's actually really having long term impacts that are bad. And so I'm excited to see some of that change. I'm also excited to see actually, we have a a task force on AI and where a lot of people are thinking about guardrails and privacy, which are super important. talked we did a task force on where is AI being used to make government work better and deliver better results? And there's some really cool stuff happening around the country. So there's I think we can do this. I have not given up yet No. I mean, and I actually, you know, I'm always I always say I'm long term optimistic, short term pessimistic. And it's just like we will, you know, we always eventually do the right thing, figure it out. We just have to exhaust all the other ideas. Right before we do it Um You know, what's funny about Democrats and rules And And this is going to sound overplifying, but I think there's something to this, which is for the last most of your adult lives U a majority of Democratic office holders went to lawk school A majority of Republican office holders own a small business interesteresting So it and you and then folks wonder why one side is 'll tell you there's too much regulation on the other side will'll say, no, you just don't understand how the rules. peoplee will just follow the set of rules. but I've often wondered if Democrats need to diversify who their office holders are, the backgrounds of office holders, so that you you sort of, you know, know what it's like to meet a payroll. know what it's like to go through and have to have a state form, a local form and a federal form in order to have a license to serve booze or get a delivery, you know to have a truck be able to like sit outside your property and do deliveries or whatever it is U And I know that sounds like I said, a little oversimplifying, but do you think there's something to that No, I do think there's something to that. And I also think so I think small business owners, you know, all kinds of different backgrounds, I've been heartened to see how many more veterans are running as Democrats Um I think that that's an interesting kind of development and that' It actually makes sense to me and it actually should be an easy marriage because veterans serve, you know, the most egalitarian system we have in government is the military. That's right. And if the if the system doesn't work, nothing works in the military. So it's one of the places where a bureaucracy, if it isn't doing something correct, it actually People die. Yeah. So they they, you know, their systems just work a little bit better. No, that's right. And I think that that's, I mean I'm a Democratic I' speak Democric party this, but I will say that I do think that one of the things that unites a whole lot of people that I work with across the country is this sense of service, is that public service is a service. It's not a you know a lot you know I have a podcast, we have a podcast called an Honorable Profession, which is really know, Bobby Kennedy's idea that goverment public service is honorable And we talk a lot about what got people into office in the first place. And ac I mean, we've had three hundred and something episodes. We've been done this a long time. And so you know, almost to a person, it was a problem that needed to be solved and they asked a question, whether it was, you know, their father couldn't get health carere or whether the local park needed something. And they figured out that, oh, the town council, the school board, whatever it was, is the person who does that. Okay, who should I talk to they're not really responding, Well, you should run. And so I mean so many people get into politics that way. And I think that you know, I still believe that that's You know, I've been this a long time, you doing this a long time. L I really believe that despite what everybody hears, and there're certainly bad actors in any, you know profession, but the vast majority of people got into politics. It's not glamorous when you start. It is not money. It is a sacrifice. They wanted to change something. They wanted to make things better. And so I love people that kind of come from that you know, that oriation I used to always say that ninety five percent of the people that come to Washington came here for the right reasons. You may not agree that the reason that motivated him, but it was a but it was a sort of a noble reason that you just described. somethingomet didn't work. That's right. And they jumped in. and then they get here and they realize And then the other thing I always like to say is that actually they ag F hundred and thirty five members of Congress kind of agree about on eighty five percent of the job It's the stuff that's just somewhere. now used to be five percent, then it was ten. That's probably about fifteen percent that's disagreed upon Yeah more than ever. Don't get me wrong. which is why we can't pass simple budgets anymore But that's the irony is that we're fighting over we're fighting over a fifteen percent disagreement, not an eighty five percent disagreement, which is why public is in better shape than we sometimes want to admit I agree with that too. I agree with that too. And its I mean, this look, this is a really weird time. This president is a very uniquely troubling you know norm breaking. And I think we all think and this is my concern. we all assume, okay, this can't get worse after he leaves type of thing. Yeah But you can't just assume that. You can't just can't just smoke the opium. I mean, I that's right. Yeah, we got to I choose to look at Trump as an MRI for what's not what very loophole that certainly, oh, that's that was a norm. We got to codify that That's right And weght to add a constitutional amendment or two on pardons. Maybe that doesn't work out Just fine. L instead of lamenting, why don't people stand up for norms? We can we can codify things. That's right. That's right. It feels a little bit to me like we're at the, you know, turn of the last century or something where there's like there's just needs to be some big scale reforms, right on whether you, and we haven't updated our democracy in a long time, right? I mean, whether how we vote, you know, the Supreme Cour only done a handful of times. We've had these periods, right? right at the beginning We're right at the right after the Civil War Essentially in the right before the Great Depression. U Yes with with u with the with the Rbber Barnd U we really haven't, I mean I would argue we really haven't done a substantive addition to the Constitution since before World War I Some will say, well twenty second amendment, which was a political reform that actually, in hindsight might be a mistake Yes. twenty fifth Amendment was actually something that was really smart it was a necessity. that was a loophole. and it was that actually was and then eight And then lowering the voting age eighteen certainly isn't insignificant on that front. But we've not had a been more substantive, right? Yeah. That's right ents That's right collection of senators and adding an income tax. And it feels like two hundred and fifty It anniversary is a decent time to talk about this, right? I mean it's a nice time to take stock. I mean,, we won't do it this year. We won't do it probably till twenty eight, you know, at least. But I do think that this is the conversation that needs to happen. And that's the frustration of where we are right now is that I think that a lot of people could probably agree with that, but everything has become so partisan and so divisive We're just going to need a leader who talks differently and who's willing to be different and who's willing to say, you know, I mean, can you imagine in our lifetime having a president that basically says I'm a president of the state s didn't vote for me? Like it's actually insane. It's not really insane. No, I mean, every behavior and that's what I know frustrates those on the left, literally if Barack Obama had ever behaved percent Donald Trump's behaved, the impeachment proceedings You know would probably would have ended successfully. Of course. Absolutely, absolutely. And so it's going to take, I mean, one thing I worry about is, you know, what happens when we get You know, I think we're going to have a great twenty six. I think there's just Democrats are going to have a good twenty six. You know, I think that we're going to have to show I don't think I hope we don't take the wrong lessons from that that you know that people like us I think they're just gonna to say that they're really yeah, they're really mad. I think that's going to be a lot of the conversation. maybe we can have that conversation after the elections. But we're going you know we're going to need to actually decide and tell people what we stand for as a party, not to just for're anti Trump. Well, that's incred really important Horseshoe Online Casino has a special offer for you, New Jersey. New users can get five hundred bonus spins in their first month on games like Huff and Ls of puff and more. It's simple and rewarding to play your casino favorites. Download and play today. Must be twenty one plus and physically present in New Jersey. minimum wagering within five days required to unlock bonuses. 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For sixty five dollars a month, I get businessusiness first Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected interternet on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five to optimum or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms of applly. See optimumot com slash business for details Real value shows up in reliability, you don't have to second guess. likeike a set of Firestone All season tires. They're designed to deliver confidence inspiring wet weather traction and a quieter ride, no matter the road. Sason after season. Firestone All season Tires. For durability, you can count on just like people Count on you Firestone, always dependable since nineteen hundred If Democrats win the house of the Senate How do you govern for two years with Donald Trump? That's right can you attempt to do it or you try to get rid of them I think you have to do it. Yeah. I think you have to do it. I'mri I don't know. I mean, look it is a hard one It's that's where I come from too. I mean, I get the instinct and I mean, and I also think accountability is important. So this is a little bit of a ush poull like right? But I do think that like going on our own retribution tour is absolutely the wrong thing to do. It's already been tried It this gigantic mistake Yes, but New York and Atlanta did Absolutely, I don't believe intentional about it, but nothing fueled Donald Trump's comeback more than the decisions in New York City and Atlanta and Ful. Yeah. Th those were basically point to something saying that see, see, they're coming after me And I think that that's we have to, you know, and even if look if we sur passing things and and he vetoes them one after the other, that's okay. That's, you know, that's I mean, it's not great, obviously, but, you know, we at least gets the ball rolling in the right direction and shows people what Democrats would do if they had, you know, somebody in the White House as well. So I think that's we have to focus on What do you say to the progressives? ivist who's been in this for a long time too and says, you know And I do sense this from the progressive movement because it's very similar to how Conservatives tired of compromising You know, supporting Mitt Romney, tired of compromising supporting John McCain or George W. Bush. Um And the progressives will say, you know You know, we we got behind Bill Clinton, we got behind Barack Obama, and we got behind Hillary Clinton. but none of them were were really, you know, of us. Obama the closer But even that was, you know, he certainly governed more like Bill Clinton than FDR, I think. and Um Don't they have a point. They've never really been in charge of the party, even though they get it even though their brands been in charge of the party for the last twenty years. Yeah. Well I guess I think two things. One is let's go back to the math we were doing at the beginning of the the show which is that's you know, that kind of Democrat is not going to win a national election. J just the math doesn't work. So I think that that's A. And B, I mean, my frustration actually, speaking of like a Hillary Clinton, I think there were people, not I mean and I think you know, you're talking about the peew thing. There's a lot of st here. So we're talking about progressive dont Anyone who calls himself progressive is not somehow an affrid of a center left, rightight I think there's a lot of room here for a big tent. But I do think there were some people on the far, far left who were like, you know, we both turn it, you know Piller Clint and Donald Trump there's no difference Oh, really Dobbss decision, Supreme Court, you know, like like I think if we go back in history, we will see that there was a very big distinction between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. So I think that, you know, I mean, it sounds kind of goofy, but it's true. L that was a conversation was happening. What's the difference? And so I think that's what I say to prorogressives. It's like, hey, we got toa win and actually there's more that unites the left center, left to left in terms of our values and what we want to see accomplish and equal opportunity for all people and all these things that I think we all can agree on that you if we can't come together to fight what is by far the greatest threat in our lifetimes, if not in the country's lifetime, to our democracy and to the Constitution, all kinds of things, then what are we doing Well, let's talk about the S word because I think that is I think it's enormously damaging to the Democratic Party's brand. I will confess that I grew up orn raised in Miami, so I am more cute I'm more more in tune to how the word socialism. is viewed by some, you know, if you If you grew up in the sunbelt you understand that a lot of your friends and neighbors hear the words socialism and think authoritarianism you grew up in the Midwest or New England That is not your experience U And I so I do think frankly that a guy like Bernie Sanders has no doesn't fully understand or AFC doesn't understand U the South Florida experience, but frankly, it's true in Texas. It's true in Arizona Um And yet I look at this typology report and progressive left, seventy percent would prefer Democratic socialist candidates. And we're seeing a huge movement. Mam Dani is is essentially trying to purge New York City. Congressional delegation of anybody that isn't at least sympathetics to the DSA Is that a is it can can the new Dems can the center left Ms behind DSA nominee if that's what happens. But can help us out what happens. I'm start there. I mean I also could think about Mamdami in particular, like right? he How he's governing, I would argue, thus far is a far cry from some of the things he said he was going to do early on, right? So he's finding out the constraints. He's finding out the constraints. And but I think that that's an important U conversation because I think that I actually do not think I'm looking forward to digging into that to the P report. And you know, I do not think, I mean I know for a fact that the majority of Americans would not call themselcialists. That's not No, no, no. I was trying to It's one faction. Yeah. in It's literally it's a majority of this progressive faction that is less loyal to the Democratic partarty Yeah in general a little more sour on it than say your mainstream liberals Yeah' almost identical to the to the progressive left except on things like socialism Yeah. And I guess I'd be really curious to kind of do a couple more questions to your kind of point. What do you think that means? I mean, if what it means is I want government to do a better job of taking care of me, which is really what it might mean. Yeah. They' not wrong. lararger safety net. and maybe they don't even know what they think that., maybe they don't have a policy agenda attached to that. Maybe they just think, you know I've been this rugged individualism idea, you know, is leaving too many people behind. And I would say, you know, the income inequality is out of control. Th things can be true. That can be true. And we need a politics and a policy agenda that addresses those concerns. that know I mean, I was at something the other day, we were talking about government run healthcare, right? And so right there are a lot of the left, right, Medicare for all, whatever it is. Then you get to the paragraph in the bill about single payer healthcare and who runs healthcare HHS RFK Junr. You want RFT Junror running? Is that really what you mean when you say government health care. So I think I would like to I think that there's something in there that's probably important for Democrats to understand about people's sense of urgency about the problems But I'm not sure that actually the solutions. like if you said that to a lot of our left friends, they probably would go, oh, well, that's not what I mean. you know No, look, I've I've, you know, What I want to tell my progressors is just drop the S word. ust trust me. Of course, you cannot rebrand it. It's never going reg it It's not going to happen because the way the word was twisted and abused in Latin America. It just is what it is and we are in the America's hemisphere. You know, this is so these areved experiences for people that either live here or are related to people. Yeah. And generational experiences People are not this is not yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And again, like maybe if we can have a conversation that gets beyond labels ever. Yeah You'd sit down with people and say Okay, I'm gonna, you know what, let me let's just take that off the table. Tell me what you mean by that actually. And I'll tell you what I mean by, you know, a more, you know, a healthcare system that is absolutely about, you know, universal healthcare but doesn't, you know, require big government healthcare. Maybe we're closer than we think But let me throw something els I don't feel like there are folks in the in the center left category are that are and I think it goes to this this concern about sort of They don't want to debate the progressive left publicly Yeah And I understand politically why Yeah. But it's why it appears they're losing the argument and why some people think, oh, a majority of Democrats are socialists because the center left never speaks up Yeah. Well, I think that that's fair. And I think that people to your point, I mean think and I disagree with that being the right approach. I think you've got to speak up and as hard as it is to sometimes tell our friends that we don't agree. Another thing that I've been concerned about recently, we've seen it with some of our leaders around the country, this you know non the term that we're not supposed to use because it's not a real world real common sense word is but it's intersectionality, right? which is this idea that people on the left have adopted each other's causes. So you'll get a questionnaire for example. This was actually a true example in Arizona where we had a legislator, you know being asked a Planned Parenthood, locallanned Parenthood, of who I'm entirely supportive was on my local Planed Parethood board, but asking them about defund police. Why would that be on a Planned Parethood board? rightight? So I do think that there's also this kind of not only do we have to speak out Lets be honest, you know theive The leadership of the key interest groups on the left off much further to the left ideologically than those folks that ran those organizations twenty years ago I think that that's right. And I think that that's You know, and I think we would tell candidates, we know, we don't do elections, but if I was talking to some of our new dealers who running, I would say I wouldn't answer a question that comes from an organization What's happening N nobody answers questionires. Don't questionnaire. consultants give, don't do it. Don't do't want to be. I mean, how do you prevent the Kamala Harris ad from happening they at That' I just don't ask. You know, she answered sub questestionnaire frrankly, pretty honestly I think every every rational demn lean person might have answered the question the same way. Well, if you're just you're already doing this and we're incarcerating them, you know, like I understand like she's not crazy to have come up with the answer she came up with, but it's like Who is asking about a one percent issue Like P talks about the. Oh by the way. Right on our side of the aisle. Right So Yeah, we talk about the one percent all the time when it comes to economic power Yeah. But I would argue and this is true on the right too, that these interest groups on the left and right that have such that try to be the gatekeepers of who gets to run for office They are one percenters. They're not absolutelyally one percenters, but they're obsessed with a one percent issue that literally I had the mayor of Oklahoma City on. earlier this week. so they hadn't aired yet. Yeah He gave a speech about the importance of pluralism. and he's he's a friend and I just loved it. I was glad he did it. It's an unusual thing to speak about Yeah. And he was lamenting. He's a Republican elected mayor of Oklahoma City, but it's a nonpartisan election, which means you get to be normal Yeah. And as he said he goes Let me tell you what the biggest issues are in the state of Oklahoma. And he says, they're the same issues that everybody else is dealing with. cost of living, gas prices et cetera, et ccetera.. And you know what the Republican primary for governors is about? He goes, it's about trans kids And it's about deportation, it's about all these things that have nothing to do with the three or four issues that the rest of the voters care about. But these interest groups and we know that they some of them want to be kingmakers and primaries are sort of demanding this conversation Yeah And the most frequent primary voters are people that are in this world No. It's a real Yeah. It's a real sc thing. It is a real screwy thing. and I think that it's You know, often I think it's not about winning and electability. it's about, you know, going back and be able to show your donors that you got someone to say, yeah, you know, sign the pledge, right? It's not really we just like got I think that donors are part of the problem here. I do think the donors are part of the problem. I think that that's changing. I'm hearing more an understanding about that, but I think I remember when the donors were the pragmatists, but now they've become especially Eespecially inherited wealth people I feel like that second and third generation, there they all got some crazy political beliefs that they can use their money to amplify I think that yeah, I think that a lot of people have kind of, you know, issues that are their number one issue and they just kind of, you know, sometimes lose the forest for the trees to be honest, right? And I think that that's I think that is a problem within the Democratic Party. I mean I also, I think that to your point, I think that also some of the some of the groups too, like they thinking about labor in particular, I think that's been an interesting, you know, evolution for labor where, you know For so long, it was part of the Democratic, coalition. and it still is a very important part of the coalition. But you know, there' been studies that show that some of the labor union leaders like are, you not, you some of the rank and file members were starting to vote Republican, right? And so know so I think that there's I think that those conversations about kind of who people speak for and what do actually real people think on the ground is actually a really healthy. I Democrats need to do a lot more listening generally I tend to think that we try to short circuit listening sometimes. All right, let me let me land the plane this way. So if you're an elected Um City Cncil memers. What is it that you can provide me as I'm thinking about You know, I want to I'm enjoying my work. I want to be more effective And I might want to try another office. What is it that you're going to be able to what are the resources that you're providing said person