Balancing Inclusivity and Comedy

Stuart here, you can go to Stuart Goldsmith dot com slash comedy for tickets to my national tour. That's right. I'm taking my second ever climate comedy show. It's called Canary. I'm taking it the Edinburgh Festival for the last two weeks of August at the mononkey Barrel at Cabaret Voltaire. and I shall see you there in the last two weeks of August and then it's a national tour for this guy. Cambridge, Glasgow, Oxford, Manchester Cardiff Maiden Head, Sheffield andirmham culminating in my biggest ever tour show at Bristol Old Vixs, Stewart gooldsmith. com slash comedy for all your tickets. My name is Sannna Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yaoi, a gift shop on the lens of artists and handmade objects. I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. all of the tools for reading your sales like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you is it doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it Start your free trial on Shopify. com Hello and welcome to the show. This week we are delving back into the archives and going back to episode two hundred and fifty nine twenty eighteen Who can remember that that long? With that year's Edinburgh Comedy Award winner Rose Matafo, someone who went on to be that year's Edinburgh Comedy Award winner. Rose and I will discuss how she ensured this and this remember, this is Rose before she went absolutely gangbusters profile wise. So really interesting to listen back and hear where she was at the time We talk about how she ensured her material about female sexuality in that year's show Horn Dog. brought the whole room along with it. We talk about how she's actively mining for hot takes, God, this takes me back and why she has a quintuple threat approach to performance. And let's not forget That all worked out, didn't it So from all the way back in twenty eighteen, here is Rose Matafo How's the show going? U the show is going fine. Yeahah. it' it's really fun. it's a show that like, obviously I did it in Melbourne and New Zealand but I always go to Melbourne with a What is deffinitely a work in progress. likeike I do one preview of what It's going be before I go to Melbourne And then Melbourne is sort of this hellish month of rewriting every day. So you have no fun at Melbourne, you just work. Really It's so hard because Melbourne is such an amazing place and all my friends are there and I get to do improv at the same time, you know now the show, but that no it is he. L It's so hard. But it's ultimately worth it because it means down the line like now, I am Far less stressed, I think uh the I like the the show. I think just It's just it takes so long to I think, figure out what a show is about So when you start months early, You get to go through all of that process of going, oh yeah, it's not about what I actually said out Yeah you get to already have worked that out by the time the time you write your press release. That would be convenient. Exactly and it's it is an amazing m because I think there's no better way of working a show than having to do it every day for a month basically like we do in Melbourne But it is just a horribly stressful process because It's it's for me, it's not only just like trying to rewrite stuff, but knowing what to cut in restructuring stuff which really takes time for me to releearn and So just every day it was just Yeah everyvery day's just like I was talking to my bring guy, another guy Montgomery who' another performer, F of the show, friend of the show. and And u Yeah, I think there's there are people who see, I think every like I say, every opportunity to perform. as like another time to like redeem yourself. But for me, I always see it as an opportunity to fail. I he sees it as an opportunity to redeem himself. Well, you know, he didn't see an opportunityem He said that like he was like trying to pump me up he was like, just, you know, hear that crowd. they' all coming in for you, you know, and you feel like, you know They're all here, you feel like the shit. And for me my panick is Oh God, these people have paid to see me and what they're about to see is horrific. And Every day is like, oh my go, why I can fuck this up in the show or this the audience is half hateful. Yeah Yeah, okay God. I just expect the worst I expect the worst of everyone basically. But But no, an answer to your question. The Frch is going fine so far. It's going. I think it's going great. Right. The night I saw your show, which was maybe Thursday or Friday last week We nearly stood up.. We nearly stood. there was a f song of like, Are we standing up? No, we're too cool to stand up. You get cool people at your audience. I nearly stood up. It was fantastic. and it seemed like I saw your show, I don't know if it was the previous year or the one before. How was that your third a second? Thd last year I saw fininally dead. Yes did L year of two years ago two years ago And I remember thinking seeing that show That you are like a quintuple threat. L you have thrown every you know that I think is in in the west end acting, they're like, you got to be a triple threat. You're dancing and playing instrument. And I was like, I don't know if you're playing an instrument but you're dancing singing, you're doing impressions, you've got visual stuff, you've got prop jokes, youve got one liners, youve got big stories, you've got like I felt like, holy fuck, you're machine gunning us with I don't know I don't mean to suggest that there's any desperation in that. It just felt like you' going, I've got an hour. I can do anything. I can do everything Yeah. I mean, I just think I don't know. I think for me I always just I think about the shows I like I love seeing and I well because I'm obviously comediian status comedy fans and it's like I think When you do that out you always want to do the kind of comedy that you would want to say, I think. and not to say that I'm doing comedy that, you know, like I'm like, o yeah, this is amazing stuff. but I just It's so weird because it's so against my person. I'm not a fun person, but weird my shows, I'm like I like the idea of people having fun or just having, I guess variety to what they're watching. because I know an hour is such a long ask, you know, And I just don't have the confidence to I think it really is rooted in the actually not having the confidence to think, oh, I could talk, I could just tell stories for an hour or I could just do this for an hour. Like I very much like confidence to commit to one thing. So I feel like I put in a heaps of staff to distract from the fact that, you know It's no, I'm not I'm not just what yeah, I'm not just one thing. like I I think I even to find it hard to say that I do stand up because I'm like,h I fucking just stupid impressions and, you know, sound things and daners and so it's Yeah, it alles I think it comes from a place of not being confident at. Well I did dyle. I did wonder whether this year's show, it seemed to me that this year's show was kind of more mature than the one I saw a couple of years ago, whichich is not only that would make sense chronologically, but you are also in your twenties. Yeah I guess Yeah I'm twenty six now. Okay So I was twenty no twenty four when I first did the No twenty three originally did a double bill. But no, yeah, and even more so than last year as well, I think. The only reason I bring up, I just wanted to sort of caveat just to bring up your age. I suppose in your twenties, a year is a much longer time. you know, the rate at which you are developing is far greateractly Absolutely Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it is a weird thing as well because like No, it is. and it seems it seems so angsty, like you're like, oh my Godd, you go through so much stuff in your twenties, but it's tr you know, it's true. It's like it's a weird thing because also when you're also self aware of the fact that people tell you and also when you do comedy and you hang out with a lot of people who are older than you, naturally, I think when you start out young you are constantly surrounded by people who are older than you who tell you Oh you're oh yeah, this is what your twenties will be like or this is what you' Oh, you'll love it when you get to thirty. And like so you're constantly kind of you know, told how you're going to feel at certain points, especially when you're doing comedy through your twenties. And so it is funny tracking that and seeing that like Also just with the doing shows like I think I think's doing it year on as well. I think it's so much easier to track how you're changing, I think as a comedian and you can really notice it by putting I guess your hour long shows if you're doing them back to back side by side and just seeing how how different they feel as well. And like I mean, I just did I was it was in u Montreal where I was doing material that I It was probably from the last two shows that I did And it honest to God is like time traveling, doing material that you wrote even just two years ago It's like being you're just fundamentally a different person on stage. and so you have to like slip into this persona that you've grown out of in a way. because I mean I'd say in the last three or four years, I've changed I'm not changeable I just just I think I've It's that weird but where you figure out, o, that's what the audience says And that's what that's ' you never know you're never aware of what you, I guess you describe as your style And then I guess it kind of becomes a bit more clear where it's like, o, oh, I get it. Oh that's what people are finding funny. because like for so many years I'm like, I don't know why people are finding this funny. That's great. The idea of who the audience sees. Let's just stick with that for a moment. Who do you think they see now and who was it that you thought they saw before. What were you offering before in an attempt to find that richest seen? I think that because I started so young That genuinely quite young that I had no, like my material was had to be very broadly observational, but like kind of I guess It was never rooted in any life experience because obviously I was like teenager so I had no life experience whatsoever and it would just been 's embarrassing to see seeing a teenager like Price is being l. wass it like being a teen guy. But it's it's so I think It's u I used to have a really nervous energy to deal with that on stage. So it was very like self deprecating, nervous kind of like Um awkward on stage And then that kind of developed to something that was like I don't know. what happened in recent years is that I think to combat nerves Um U. Because I get really ner yeah, I don't I get really nervous still before ing I don't feel like I'm not a person who lik I feel lve on stage.'m always it's alwayss a terrifying thing. So I think I comombat that with them being more I corctive than I ever am in real life.ike I'm not an energetic, high energy person in real life And that's what people, I think, mostly my friends And family find bizar is that we walk in and you're playing table tennis. hundredcent I feel like just absolutely wild like on stage. and I talk really fast and I scream basically and I'm so I'm really loud and I'm not that kind of person in real life. and I think that's to deal with, you know I feel like getting nervous. But I think people see that and get the wrong idea of what kind of person I am. And I get a lot of people who who get this real thing and I think a lot of girls do it is I get it. I think when they do comedy of the of the thing of like, oh my god We should be best friends. I was wondering about this You know your show last year was called Cass B friends. Yeah, yeah So so many girls be like, no, we are no, like we are totally. We would be best friends in real life. And it's so hard to explain I'm like, I have hardly any best friends in real life. You know I'm a very bad friend in real life, but I' friendly to audiences and to people who come to my shows And it's a It's a funny it's a really funny. It's a really weird thing to be, are't you? You've gott to say that it is not possible to be best friends with stage Rose Maphail. Yeah She only exists for that hour and you can't talk to her. completely Yeah. And it's like and I love getting to talk to people before the shows and all of that stuff. and I think But it's so hard to figure out what your personality is off stage and like on stage and if there is if there is any crossover there and I think in that aspect, I don't think I am naturally a person who like I guess is that as friendly as that in real life? But I I don't know. it's an awkward thing when I just think though I think there is something that's imposed on, I think sometometimes women doing comedy because I think when especially if woman is doing stand up that is very relatable or observational a way that's very specific and I I get I get A lot of my material is very relatable all of the time which is funny because Everyone's material is stand up is You're trying to relate to an audience. It's the whole thing you're trying to do, mostly anyway But I just find that it's so funny the distinction when I guess women do relatable material it morphs into U this is a friendship, this is a relation is that kind of not an entitlement but like an assumption that That performer would be friends with you as well. And I think I don't know. Do you find do you ever get anyone saying Stu will be based Oh my God same men don't talk to each other like that in my experience anyway in my experience. but I do get I feel like probably the tones I play, I do think people think that they'd get on with me and they you know, reviews will when I used to read them will refer to me as like, you can totally imagine him being your mate down the pub. That's the boy one. your m down the pub Down the pub. Not holy hands. We're not nothing weird about it. You mate down the pub in a safe environment where blokes won't express f here you peers barcue Yeah. That's so funny. that's the male equivalent of mine. She wants I want to be a best friend. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Here's a thing I think about your current show, horn Dog, which some of which is about not to give too much away, but some of which is about sexuality Yeah. lust, I suppose, Hornust, that kind of thing. Something I really noticed happening was men and women laughing. at the way you had made female experience of sexuality completely relatable to everyone in the room. w that is that satisfying? Do you recognize? really satisfying you must see that in people's reactions. There are some people who can talk about kind of female sexuality in a way that gets the women on side such that in an audience, I'm kind of like, I'm really noticing that the women are on side and are finally someone saying something for us, tootally valid I noticed in your show, that It was almost like post that kind of thing because the environment was such that men and women were like, Yeah, great, you know you know, menstruation and they go I'm onored. I'm bored with that aspect of it. Youve made me get what that must be like. that's so it's so funny that's so nice to say because I mean because that's exactly I think a progression, a real clear progression from what I did last year with my show because last year's show was a lot it was all about basically personersality and and when kind of discovering your personality as like a young teen into your early twenties and feeling very confused about that stuff and how that intersected with my birth control pill and having gone off it and how that can really affect, you know when you're on the pill, something that's hormonally just changing you fundamentally in your body, how that messes with your idea of what your own personality is and then you're like who am I in my early twenties if I'm taking a hormonal pill every day? it was very very That's that shocking good point. I'm sorry I didn't see that'sinings and it's you know, it was really it was like a really interesting time because I went off it and And so, you know, the end I talk about, you know, I just I just try and articulate how it feels to be on that like one of my one of the examples and I always like, this joke is not working, but you know people I think someone at the other day was like, that's exactly how it feels. It's like It's like trying it's like getting into u Being on the pill is like getting into an Uber and you're on your way home And the driver starts saying a slightly different way home to where you usually go and you're like, that's kind of weird. But I'll trust them. and they start going in the opposite direction to where you actually live, and you're like Sorry, I actually li in the other direction and then the driver turns around and it's you. you know and it's you and you're like what the fuck is going on? Be there's your own body fucking you over. And then like and so many girls came up to me after that show being like that this is exactly my either this is exactly my experience or More regretly so, I'm going off the pill tomorrow and I was like, no, no. I to so many I want at a festival. This is the worst one. But the best thing one of the best ones was a guy who totally like oh he was toasted as well. He was this tall Irish guy who came with his girlfriend and he was like, I didn't fuckking know, that's what the pill did to you. Oh my Godd, I gotta get my girlfriend off the pill as soon as I So sweet, but I think That show wasific was really I think resonated with a lot of women in terms of their experience with the Pill and that whole kind of aspect. But then I think this show, I think That's what I would lost. I think I lost a lot of guys in that and specifically talking about birth control, all of that stuff. I think there were some guys would come and Totally enjoy it, completely. but I think I really just got a lot more women in the crowds when I had a show called Sassy Best Friend. My poster was pink, you know, And that was very much actually intentional And in Melbourne, it saved me, I think, from crowds that would not enjoy it. And it was I didn't realize that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. a stager is not going to come to a show called Sassy This Friendch. Sure thing. You know, and it' a sweet little filter. you've worked out that. That was really filter because then I would just have crowds of women And you're like, o, this is The dream, like Performing to a crowd, which is more wom women than men is like is quite incredible. But that's exactly what I was like, you know, this year I'm really'm happy to find that kind of middle ground in that Not only a, you know, not only a I mean not say that men were never, you know, open to like hearing that kind of comedy, but I think It's they're much more I don't know, I think I like the idea. I think there was always that horrible thing that like, people were assumed that like weren't you know When men and women go to comedy shows, you know, it's like especially if you're going on a date or something's like one of them dragged them to it, you know what I mean? And like Women only laugh, womomen don't lagh. Women that weird myth. womomen don't laugh at it was like a fucking urban legend. Women don't laugh at other women because they feel threatened by women when they make their boyfriends laugh. And it's like, who ever said that and it's like it kills me because it's So not true because I always that's the thing. I always see women in groups laughing and I very rarely see men in groups laughing. You know what I mean? Like And I think especially in a place like the fringe, like they're the best crowds because they just get behind stuff all the time. But I'm glad I'm glad men are enjoying it as well. I mean, you know, it's not it's not for them, but you know I' it for them, but yeah I'm glad they can enjoy it as well you mentioned the clique, the cohort of the snort team in New Zealand. Yeah. Do haveave you fallen into a similar but different? Is there any kind of clique that you're a part of? Is there a scene that you're a part of in the UK? notot particularly no. I mean only through that like When I came here, I was lucky enough to I had a very rare kind of experience in that when I moved here I knew so many people on the scene because they were the ones who were brought out to New Zealand to do the New Zealand Cedy festival. So I already had such an amazing I guess But like you know, I was friends with so many people who then I came to England and I was like, oh yeah, they're actually more famous than I thought they everything doing better than I thought, Okay. o yeah. Yeah, because there's tons of people like. I mean, even like Joseie and David and stuff, like I met when I was sixteen and I've I've known them since I was like sixteen and then like realizing o they're Lgit likeike oh yeah, they're very popular and amazingly successful when you come to a the UK. But I think I just maybe naturally found myself, I mean you as well because I mean we met in New Zealand and might nich and people like, you know It was just a I mean, I moved here And moved in with Nich. so it was actually yeah, I replaced. Yeah, you actually replaced me, Rplaced you. it was you that egged Richard Herring.one That would egg Richard Haring. Yeah, yeah. We'll go to that another time. He accused me of Niche because I'll have those houses back onto each other. They do. They do. I always tried to say Richard Harring, but I never saw them. I was like, Wh Chelse's head? Yeah But obviously that meant that I was kind of yeah already U that group of And to what extent are you following any kind of a plan? Like I know that one of the things that a Kiwi comic, one of the rites of passage is go to the UK, jig every night three times a night in London for four years, then go back and get famous. That' you know that's a rooutot. Yeah. think No it's so hard because I feel like I have like ans my plans are like weird, like like I'm like, well, you know, we're got to get to the Oscars by twenty fifty. orr something like that. You know, likes something like weird like that. I have no I often don't have year to year plans because I often just structure my years around doing these festivals, you know, It's like Edinburgh is a goal and you know, doing another show in Melbourne is a goal or you know, being able to but I'm never like, I'm going to get my own TV show. I'm going to do this. I think U When I first moved here, I was a bit like When I first moved to the UK I was very I felt very like What the fuck am I doing? I've moved I've left a job in New Zealand where I was earning money doing comedy on television. veryer, very stable, you know income I moved here spend all my savings to just go, okay, well, I'm just gonna live here for a year, live off savings, see if I can do enough gigs But in that's thing of me, I'm like, I'm not kind of comedian who's like I want to get up every night, you know, I can only do comedy every night and do my stuff. Like I just don't even like gigging. I really don't I don't I'm not like brave and gigging. L I don't I am very much a person who would rather, you know make something perfect and do a gig and do it perfectly rather than I never can work stuff out on stage. I'm not like a person like that. I don't because I hate failing and I hate doing bad So and I I think the negative, like the downsides the amount of like that kills me to fail on stage outwighs being able to work through it. I think I'm really hard on myself. Not a clown then. Yeah, no, not a clown at all. It's I'm hard of myself to the point of just like It's getting ridic I'm becoming aware of how ridiculous it is getting and that it's hindering me from getting better sometimes Can you give me a more concrete example of that for the people listening who are also battering themselves? Yeah, just like mean I could tell you every every single thing I fucked out yesterday on my show, you know, I could end And part of me, what's the problem with stand upp is it because it is a completely solitary or oftentimes solitary saying You know, you're constantly having to improve by being incredibly critical of yourself. and Sometimes being able to step outside yourself and go, that shit, that doesn't work. when you are Doing that it's not like it's not it's not the relationship of a director and a performer in ass yourself saying Yeah, that was shit. You did shit there and you're being like say that to me and it's hurts. And're like, no. This is how you're going to get better. and it's such a horrible like line to kind of It's such a horrible thing to negotiate of being kind to yourself enough to have the confidence to get on stage and do comedy Also better yourself by expecting more of yourself as a performer. really can get muddy, I think because They're obviously completely linked, but it's u Yeah, I think if the balance kind of gets out of, you know, if it gets out of balance it can be, um they just shit on you, you know on just in mental health. and I know that It's a funny thing of you know when you rationalize it when you performing and you're like, I'm only performing for an hour a day. L why am I so tired? Why do I feel like shit? Why am I so unhappy? And it's like It's so hard to quantify how much It takes up of your energy and your time and your brain throughout the rest of your day, I guess when you do it. so it's But I don't even know what we'reriginally talking about. What are we talking about? Oh yes, plan, plan My plan was to do stand up for a year, live off savings. I was really lucky enough to like findind management who It's a bit like, you know best and really thoughtortive of me staying in the UK and was really invested in keeping me here What I found is that as soon as things started going well in England, the way more opportunities came up for New Zealand. Oh okay. You know, o. There's that weird thing though I think about New Zealand is like there's this cultural cringe around comedy in New Zealand where people just don't They just Almost like the general public just like almost hate comedians for the very fact that they think they can do comedy. Yeah. It's horrible horribly chit thing. It's not a cool thing. I think it's a Yeah, I talked to Di Henwood about this about how that he in particular was sort of known as being like the loose Kiwi comic Yeah. And the amount of liberties that people take with his personal space and with his personal freedom, just when he's in the street, Di Hen is very famous comic in in New Zealand. And people there is that kind of that tall poppy thing. People see you as a success, they want to cut you down Completely. and ands there's no love for I mean, I even I know that's something that, you know, is really been passed down from our culture, I guess of the British culture of that. being quite modest or being, you know, not being qu self effacing or.'s like you're being modest enough. Yeah, exactly. But I think it's morphed into something different quite ye. Like aggressive in New Zealand because I think still here you've got comedy fans and you've got pride in British comedy. a lot of. you know And I think you've got a lot of pride in that and a lot of genuine people who aren't ashamed or you know, embarrassed to say that they're fans of British comedy. And then in New Zealand you have this really horrible kind of Fin colonial hangover thing of like Oh, I love British comedy, not New Zealand comedy. You know, and it's really doing yourself down kind of attitude And u And you get so much o my Godd never read comments on a on an article about you doing C that it is a mind fact It is just every form of like horribly, deeply entrenched kind of like you know self self kind of deprecation that you can find. So It I you're actually just because there's no one here to see this, you're having a kind of a physical reaction That sounds fucking horrible. When When you were young I are artistically vulnerable, no matter what age you are, but presumably worse when you're young and you're on TV since your early twenties. Oh yeah, I did and I did music television when I was in my early twenties where I There was a mechanism. it was a live television show, but all of the comments came through live where we had to moderate them on air. So I have since the age of nineteen, had to read and feelld every type of comment of like about you and how you're not funny and how you it It's just so bizarre. like New Zealand's so small, it's like It your shit and I to school with there. Well I think the physical reaction is that like it just infuriates me. It fucks me off so much because It's the exact it's like the flight of the Concordes example. It's like, They had to go overseas and achieve amazing international success, doing the exact same thing that we're doing in New Zealand in pop comedy days. they've been doing it for years But as soon as it was validated by Oh, the higher ups in some other country in America or England, New Zealand are like Oh yeah, no we love you now. and It's just that lack of confidence in is genuinely supporting. and it's just so specific to comedy as well as an as, you know, as a perform like a as a in a heart form, but I guess just, you know, as a thing it gets me because I think But per capita, New Zealand produces some of the most like amazingly original wonderful comedy. And It's just kind of like not appreciated in the country and I just think it's such a horrible Shit toxic thing that I'm We need to get over I think, as a country, I suppose. But Do the experience of being nineteen and fielding negative comments online live as part of a show where you're trying to be funny? Is there anything good about that? Is there anything that it teaches you? Is there anything that trains you? Is it like, you know, you think of Thai kickboxes? they kick a tree and their shins are bleeding and then their shins are invulnerable? Is there anything good about it or is it just fucking horrible? It's fucking horrible, but also it is like It does teach you that like Not only that like so, you know, it's the same with reviews, you know? like, you know, you can say like, don't read reviews, you know, because reviews a shit And people and don't read comments about you because people are mean and stuff Obviously also that whole thing of like, you don't know what's going on the other side of that comment. And these people are truly oftentimes quite pathetic. That's what I learned definitely doing it when I was younger. But I think more so what I learned and what I can apply to comedy is that Not everyone has to light like It's a horrible thing because comedy is kind of, you know, very transparently, you just going on stage being like, please like what I'm doing right now I would just want you to like me I mean, maybe that's just me. Personally am I st? I don't think it's just you, but I think there are people who dont who don't do that Totally I think you're one of the people who at the moment is like that? Although who do you think don't do that? Because even if someone comes out and is an unlikeable stage persona or saying, you know, being outspoken or telling it like it is. Ultimately, I don't think I think the very medium or standing up on a stage and saying and talking people. that you want people to validate something in a way that you're like, I want you to like me. I want you to like what I'm saying So where do you in terms though of your persona on stage, given that this show has some very deft and very specific bells and whistles, but it's a lot of good chunks of good stand up, which are Let me go. this isn't this isn't you going hip it whatever, you know, I've got to do everything Do you see that continuing? Do you imagine that Who do you imagine you will be in five years time, in ten years time? I it's an impossible question, but like what are you drawn towards? What aspects of yourself are you drawn towards? Well that it's such funny thing you That was a pretentious question. I was it? I mean, I am a pretentious for not thinking it's pretious. That's the thing I've been really, I think, most insecure about this show because obviously every show you do, you want it to be better But obviously it has to be different as well. And then you have to take risks in certain ways to change it. And so that means maybe you know, getting rid of stuff you did the year before or trying something new. And I think this year I've been incredibly insecure in the I think I was so stoked because people seem to like the show last year. But this year, I feel like I've got way more. I think I've personally become a bitter justust joke writer for myself. Like I've got better writing material for myself And I'm happier with the material in that I'm like, oh, I feel like this, I'm getting better at wriding material But that means there's a lot less kind of bells and whistles stuff. There's actually a lot less than last year. Last year had lots more, you know sound elements and you know impressions and stupid shit that were like think in a show like exciting and stuff. and this one's kind of one more, you know, p more more material, but with more of a through line as well. And I think what I'm finding is I'm really happy because I think doing the show here I'm just I'm just more confident in doing the show and having fun on stage and doing material which I can I guess u'm stand by and for me actually purely from a from a is maybe selfish point of view And you might feel this as well. When you're doing it in a fringe show, you're writing for the fringe and you're writing it for a particular context, obviously The show, I'm like, oh, there is so much more material in this I can take out for what I do in the rest of the year, which are spot fifteen minutute spots. So you do club gs, you do TVs and there's so much more material that can be stand alone And I'm like That's really helpful for me. Was that a decision or discovery? It was a discovery, I think, because I think I was just like Maybe because last year I was like, fuck, some of these things are been quite bitsy and u and quite hard to do in isolation So I think in this one, I feel like I've got, you know, certain routines where I'm like, oh I can do that. And it's the first time I've ever done that. because I write very, very short jokes, I feel and The more I do it, the longer they kind of get because the more confident I feel and you know extrapolating them, but I think I want to continue down that road of just like I know. As I get older, I think my persona is getting more confident in saying things on stage and like with not authority, but like just feeling like people Should listen I feel like I that's authority. Yeah A Psychopath. But you know, like that thing of like I think often on stage sometimes you'll be like talking and you'll be midway through a joke and you're like, whyy the fuck are these people listening to? I don't know anything. I don't know anything, but I'm saying stuff I'm trying to make observations that I'm just like making hot takes essentially. But I think being more confident in just what your point of view is and what your persona is, I think that's something that excites me because I think I guess that's maybe that's something bad, but it's just some I feel like can yeah And in another five years, I think I'll just be a bit more confident with them who I am on stage, but hopefully also just doing maybe something completely different, I think Talk to me about hot takes. I think that's a really interesting asset of facet rather, of what you do. Yeah. It's very relevant. partart of an ongoing conversation. Yeah. Do you think of Do you think there are bits in your show that are cooler takes? do you what mean that are like, Well, this is this is relatable but not relevant. Whereas this one? yeah, that we're all talking about that right now. Well, that's the thing' like That's a really interesting thing though I think, and I talk it a lot with my friends about is that There is a real th fine line between sometimes, I guess and stand up like something that's relatable and off the moment, but then also geisty. So then you find things where people are doing material about stuff that is very like of the moment, but then you're like, oh yeah, and did you make a joke about it? No. But because you're pushing these buttons and you're like, this, this, this, this, you're pressing these buttons and you're saying specific tri triggering words and stuff It's like people react to it and um I mean, I think obviously like it's been such an interesting year for this year I guess with all of the Me too stuff, I think because Its some For me, I'm like I get it, I'm not annoyed, but I think everyone should be talking about it and in their own way. and I think I find it so interesting to see everyone's take on it. I am sick of seeing more men do stuff about it than women. I think women should get first dibbs on it. what That's my opinion is that this fringch women should get first dibbs on any me too routine because, you know Come on I don't want to I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear too many more men complain about how hard it's been on them as a good guy. I see know you know You know, I think but if you can find something genuinely funny and I think it's funny. but But it is it's again like that thing, that is a thing that's very of the moment But if you can find that funny angle on it, it's very good. But if you don't, then I guess it's just becoming more it becomes more of like a Ted talk stand up. So that's why I'm very aware of like, I don't want to be Um I would I would hate to be kind of like a cast as this like, you know, woke millennial stand up. you know, like talking about talking about the issues because You know, you you hope that your comedy has has enough observational Ieless kind of quality to it that exists beyond, you know, the time you're doing it in really. But maybe that's Yeah No say? No, I think I agree with that. I was going to say, I mean, you are kind of a woke millennial talking about that sorry guys do things. You you are, you know, that's you you have a social you have a social conscience. you are you are I try relevant v a bit though in terms of a worst take of it, you know, like I'm saying, I go really hard in horn doog about like how I'm I have I have got so many problems with like I'm a fucking floozy when it comes to dudes. like, you know, like I I can say that I believe all the stuff and these all my principles as a person who's like a feminist and all the stuff, but then there's all the stuff that I do that contradicts that because I'm not I'm just a a person who's just navigating through a very like interesting and kind of sometimes hard world. But I think that's what I like seeing in other people is that You want to see someone who's like I guess vulnerable in that you don't know. like And I think that's the bit that makes it timeless that out of just being aw woke millennia. There are enough shows here which are people showing their credentials trying to press the buttons. but you have I really Um really kind of personal and vivid and specific honest take on. it's like heres you are you are sufficiently skilled as a comic to go hereere's the material, here's the stuff we're all thinking And here's what I'm thinking and how I relate to it and how that fits into the stuff we've established. Yeah. And I think it's that stuff that feels I mean, maybe it won't be Maybe very little comedy is really timeless. E you know if you want to go back and look at the greats from the last twenty or thirty years, know there is still stuff where you're going to go, o yeah, we were all reacting to mobile phones, or whatever. But it does have an archetypal quality to it where we go, this is not simply someone saying We should all be like this Yeah. it's a personal reaction. But isn't that funny? I mean, that's why I'm really difficult. and I think that's the thing I find it difficult when like people like you know Go. This is where I am, I'm a feminist. I'm woke millennial, benefit from that kind of you know rhetorical like talking about those issues and then perhaps don't walk the walk in other ways. And one problem I've had really recently is that I feel really a real responsibility I think a lot of you know people who do stand up for a living He as well. is doing shows like I'm so I'm doing a show and this is an interesting thing to talk about really briefly is that like I talk so much about sexuality and like female, you know, male male and female, boys and girls in all of these very like very binary ways because yeah, right. Yeah. And so I've kind of ve been trying to rewrite things to be more um open to like to the fact that that is like, but this is the very difficult thing with comedy and it's something that's really interesting to navigate and like It's actually quite an exciting thing a challenge as well sometimes, is that you're making observational comedy Comedy is about generalization so much of the time because you're trying to talk to big group of people and relate to as many of them as you can in one second So you make wild calls, you make hot takes, as I say to get a point across. But when you try and bring in this idea, it's like, I'm not speaking to everyone here And I'm using language specifically that is not inclusive. And so That's been like the probably the most The biggest, you know, thing for me, I'm like if I'm, you know, if you're if you feel like you're a awoke millennial talking about all this stuff, these's issues, then also you gota try and at least you know, walk the walk and like actually the one having the platform to do that like I guess specific examples of like trying to like, say like, you know, not most people or say masculine or feminine or like You know J even wording slightly wording jokes slightly different, like There's a stupid joke in my show of like hunt is a word for something most a woman often have affected the art of actually being them. and it's like It was the difference between saying we they like countunter as a woman for something women have or off or putting often in there because not all women have that or saying like of female sexuality is different to boy sexuality. it's more straightforward when you have When you have a thing And it's rather than saying boy has a dck and a girl doesn't. And so it's all of those ways where you're like This is a hard new a Particularly given the requirements of word economy. ye it' yeah yeah, yeah, you're fighting against yourself to be inclusive at the expense of the sting of a joke Completely. And I talk to Eli Methon about thiss another comedian from New Zealand. And you know, we're all trying to do that, but there is nothing more boring than hearing someone say, Oh and a white cis man. Like there's nothing more bon of killing, right? And it's like then to hear someone like you know, say that, exactly the word economy of that becausecause then it brings in whole it distracts from what you're actually trying to say. So it's u That is interesting. Very few people like the cliched comedian thing men are like this, women are like this. Trans people, I can't speak to the experience of trans people. And it's like ye, you can't and is that I mean that does that put you in the position that a white man be in where he wants to talk about me too, but doesn't want to be just another. Exactly. Yeah. exactly. And so I was thinking about that and also like, you know, it's like I'm also I think it's just being aware of who you are on stage where you're coming from and are you speaking from a personal If you're speaking truthfully from your personal experience as being whatever you are think that is is is fine and it's it's it's when you it's when you get into the I guess you know, observations or hot takey kind of stuff about other people where you kind of have to I guess think more about that. And I'm so aware that it's such a journey to be on try to improve yourself in that regard. And I mean, it's even like, you know Calling sh It's those blind spots of like especially doing comedy as a woman. It's like You know, I think there's such a focus on supporting women and comedy and all this stuff. But then there's also there's so many other facets to that like that's often often I see lists in the festival. It's like these are the top women that you should see All of them white All of them white and like'm I think I was on one. I'm fucking halfway. I'm basically fully white. like And it's like, I think there are so many blind spots to that staff. that u you know, that that kind of inclusivity stuff of of it that um I think I just I think it never it never hurts to just be aware of it. and I think there can be real strrong reactions to that stuff and I know, especially in comedy I think If your heart's in a good place And you're just trying, I think there's nothing wrong with that, I suppose? I don't know. it's just but also it's egg Let thing of like notot jumping on people when they fuck up. That's what I don't like either. It's like And I think comedians in comedy can do that. you know, when someone fucks up it's like, fuck you, how dare you? but not give them the benefit of the doubt that they're like working through You know Comedians jump on another comedian, you mean ire Because comedians are bitchy, right M' absolute bitches Everyone loves each other, but also like yeah I mean, this festival' mad. Forbiding ing for just people going a bit loopy. I mean, I do as well, but it's just such a weird It's obviously when you put like this that many comedians in such a small city doing shows in the same places. Everyone just goes a bit like What things do you want to learn to be a better comedian U learn to be a bit comedian I'd like to be more ust confident in my ability to do it Like even when I got to write jokes sometimes, I c' up and ve I've written jokes. I've been a comedy writer for other people so much that sometimes I forget what I find funny truly, and I'll write a joke that I'll do because I know it'll get a laugh, but I't find I'm not one who's like if I saw that, I wouldn't laugh at that. You know? And that makes me feel shit because it makes me feel like I I'm losing An tiny bit of originality I feel like I have as a as a person as a comedian. So I'd like to be able to write material that I feel I could Stand by What's the what's the secret of writing juges for some someone else Um, what's the secret God. J just jokes I mean, just learning jokes structure is like I see it as p paint my numbers sometimes. You know what I mean? Depending on what it is I find it in my own show as well I'll find like lines where I'm like Okay, well for this to work, I just need to find two different things that are kind of similar but don't go together. and then just try and find every combination of that And I think improv is a really amazing technique to have developed to Be able to do that? and to work a lot in writers's rooms with other people, writing for other people You get so good at not being precious with ideas, like I did a sketch show of three series in New Zealand and learning not to be precious with ideas is so is such an improv thing and it's such a sketch writing thing and I think it's such a helpful thing of going That thing is so good that you know you shouldn't just cut it from the show if it's not getting a laugh. And I think that's something that I really I really have appreciated from what, you know the work I've done is that like It means that, you know, Just being like ruthless of your own yourself, being like Fuck you. this isn't working. Cit shit As a comedian, I think maybe I need to go the other way and kind of believe believe in some stuff more and Yeah, I don't know I don't know. I still don't think I have a particular persona on stage I think what I 'd like I'd like to change my persona. to something maybe more true of me self I don't know. what What risks would that involve? What's at stake? I think it would what's at stake is is a lot more silence on stage I talk with Race Nicholson about this a lot because Race is a person like me whos started young Our shows are Dense, I think, really dense with If there's not a punchline, every twenty ten seconds even We feel utter shame on stage because any moment of silence is like as horrible on stage And I think That's something I would love to maybe get more confident in is being able to sit in silence and believe that a bom would go with me on that, you know? So ye. But sit on a stool. Sit on a stool. Yeah sit on a stool and have no lastu for three minutes. Cope with it. I reallyally good. But how do people do that? I like I feel like I was listening to something of like French comedians do that a lot You know, they they tell a story and then they'll They'll do a punchline and everyone will be like But I just can't I have no stories to tell and I don't have the confidence to tell them either But yeah Are you happy Am I happ this Am I happy? I'm actually You know what No joke I am, I amm happy Isn't that crazy I'm happy, it's great. It's very good. I'm happy because I think Think I'm surrounded by people and performers who alike excite me so much And I'm just like excited to do stuff really cool, creative talented people And also I just sometometimes I'm like, I sit in my bedroom in L like I live in London and I've got like a five year visa now to live in London And I sit in my room. All my stuff and go like and it sounds so cheesy but just sit there and go This is amazing because this is like, A room of staff that I bought for myself And I've never, ever Only ever, you know, since I was eighteen, I've made Never, never got money from anything else, like apart from doing comedy and being just like Cool and like stoked and proud to like have built A weird life on the other side of the world T by doing comedy and being like, that's fucking Awesome. likeike how lucky am I to do that And that's so weirdly positive for a person who's such a miserable dick most of the time. But I think I've found myself just going, this is cool. I live in London I'm twenty six. I'm so lucky I get to do comedy. It's going to fall apart in four years, but I'll enjoy this month.