Final Thoughts and Future Projects

Stuart here, you can go to Stuart Goldsmith dot com slash comedy for tickets to my national tour. That's right. I'm taking my second ever climate comedy show. It's called Canary. I'm taking it the Edinburgh Festival for the last two weeks of August at the mononkey Barrel at Cabaret Voltaire. and I shall see you there in the last two weeks of August and then it's a national tour for this guy. Cambridge, Glasgow, Oxford, Manchester Cardiff Maiden Head, Sheffield andirmham culminating in my biggest ever tour show at Bristol Old Vixs, Stewart gooldsmith. com slash comedy for all your tickets. Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Stuart Goldsmith. This is the Comedianss Comedian podcast And today, exactly five hundred episodes after her first appearance, we welcome back one of the UK's most acclaimed comics and someone whose mind and whose comedy mind I find Fascinating. I love the way that she is so articulate. I love her kind of erudite and learned approach to comedy, which doesn't get in the way of her being really, really funny. She is fresh off finishing her latest tour I Am A Strange Gloop We welcome Sarah Pasco back to the show. Now there were technical issues. We recorded this a few months ago initially and then they we had some technical issues. We got like a solid hour and forty five and it was brilliant and I was devastated when it became apparent that that version had been corrupted, but Sarah very, very kindly agreed to find another time to come and re record. So this is, as you will hear, we tried not to sort of hit any of the same stuff. We hit similar topics here and there, but I don't think it's any kind of we're not spending a lot of time going, Hey, this is what we said last time But if you are in the insiders cllub, then sometime later this month, not this week, but sometime later this month, we will release the not good enough but bearable if you're a super fan, audio of the original episode. So that's like an hour and forty five that's going straight to the Patreons. You can be one of them. I'll tell you more about that in a second in case you don't know. So this is the re record with crystal clear sound quality. but there is not only are there extras from this episode, if you're in the inssiders Club, you can hear if you so choose and I would choose if I were you because it's banging and You can hear the entire original episode in sort of an attempt at cleaned up audio. I'm sure Callum will have done very well with that, but it isn't the quality you've come to expect. Right. In the first half of this reo Sarah Pasco Rurns episode, we will talk about how comedians can become addicted to rejection. We'll talk about the imbalance of what the circuit means for different comedians, how comedy awards don't guarantee careers. We'll talk about whether using writers in comedy is cheating, and why there should be a workshop for comics to survive and thrive in panel shows. I'm amazed no one's doing one of them already. Surely someone's going to do that before long This is this is real good gear. I think you're going absolutely love this one. There's never been a better time to support us. We're an independently produced podcast. There's any three of us Suzie on the loogs, evvil prodroucer Callum and myself. And for three pound each not for three pound each. Th pound you can pay three pound each. For three pound a month there's basically a pound each per month That's fair, I think you will get I can't say that because we do not divide the money equally, but we do divide the money. So you will get ad free access to all of the full video. This one was videoed on Zoom. someome of them have filmed live. and you get all the audio as well. fifteen minutes of exclusive extras with Sarah from this episode. you get the new formats J and A every week. Ish I will say ish, but I I do get round to them And also a warm fuzzy feeling. So all of that said, you can go to a comedian note you can go to patreon. com slash Ccom pod for all of that, but now at long last Here's Sarah Pasco Brackets Returns You had just had like a breakthrough in therapy. Yes we spoke to each other. I was right at the end of my tour, like going into the last couple of weeks So it was intense, it was scintillating. We were both finding new things, new ideas. was great. And then it round like we were underwater, they were caording. Yes. So the thing now There's a couple of mistakes I'd like to not make. and one of them is to try to recreate that interview because then you end up going, and do remember it's annoying for the listener, becausecause we keep saying, Oh, that's what you said last time. I think we need to allow for a certain amount of that to happen. Sure. I think probably we should just I've got like a little list of some things I remember us or I half remember us talking about. I didn't want to get too, like it's hard to listen back to anyway Yeah, I mean, So I think what had just happened and something that kind of bookeended it quite neatly was you had just done the newew Mop the Week on a different channel. Wow, o that's And I think I asked you Was it a different experience doing it now compared to the stress it was when you were on the way up? Now that you're very established and confident, was it a whole different ball game and a lot easier Well, that's what I'd hoped, hadn't I? I had thought. The reason I said yes to it It wasn't because it's loads and loads of money or needy exposure or anything like that I thought this will be fun to sit there in that chair and do it, makeake some jokes that you've written about the news. without the pressure of I'm trying to establish myself. This is an audition for a future career D. I thought it would be a lot less nerve wracking and that perhaps I would enjoy it in some way that I hadn't the first time round. And guess what I didn't. It was really, really nerve wracking. and that show, because you have to produce so much for the entirety of the record all the way up to the end, which is scenes I'd like to see It's really stressful. and I didn't sit there feeling like, I deserve this, this is a victory lap. I'm so lucky to just sit here and laugh with my friends I just kept shrilling up inside myself when I said something that wasn't funny enough or I had an idea that didn't really go anywhere. It was a damp squib. And I thought, o, it's me that hasn't changed. It still really matters. With all of us, all comedians, I think that's the true test of our species. Does it hurt you when you say something that you think is funny and no one laughs? Yes, it scoalds and burns and it's very shameful hasn't changed And then now, having done four episodes of that series I can absolutely say it was just the kind of roller coaster that it was when I first did it in twenty sixteen and that some of the records went better than others, usually because the audience laugh a bit more. so you gain a bit of confidence and then you' a bit more experimental, you take some risks and that pays off and you feel proud of yourself and sometimes you feel much shy and you're looking at notes on the table in front of you going this is all terrible But why did I think this was my angle I'm noting your use of the word scold. Like you really that's such an evocative word. Oh God, I did a new material thing last night with a bunch of like ten minutes I'd written that day or substantially written that day. and like it was the same feeling of like sureurely this was good. I had so much confidence in a bit and then it bombs and that's not even televised. Well, Stu, the other day I had that same experience. I did two new material nights and I did the same thing at the second one because I thought the first audience were wrong. That's how much I believed in this bit. and it's about lush. And I took all these lush products that I've bought and then emptied and then keep them because you can recycle them. And they have stickers on them. I'm sure you use lush sometimes, do you?'ve got those st. They got those stickers on them of the person who made it. Okay And I thought this was such great observational stuff And it was like eight minutes. and so it at the first time, I just thought the audience just That's the wrong crowd for this, but the second one were definitely the right crowd And then halfway through I had to say I'm just a woman holding some litter. I realized it wasn't a bit at all. It was just it was only observational if you were me in the bath Othinking The Lush factory must be like, it isn't stand up comedy But it is stand up comedy as well, isn't it? Like I mean, I don't know how many more times you might want to try that bit because I've never tri feel I've recycled the bits now. I've recycled the That one that's nice. That nice Yeah. The membrane is so thin, isn't it? betweenween being a person observing a thing just for you in the moment and having a thought that's like, oh, this could work and then discovering that this doesn't work. Not that it can't necessarily, but that it doesn't. There's an amazing Grimms Brother tale on exactly what you're saying and it's called Auntie Tothake. I'm sure it's the Grims Brothers or if not it's Hans Christian Anwers. It's one of those storytellers people at Auntie Toothsake and it's all about how everyone has poetry in them But for some people, it's only enough for them Oh God, that's great. Yes. So everyone is a poet. It's just that some people, their poetry will talk to thousands to millions of people and for others of us It's just just for you or maybe your auntie that's one of the things I have most I mean, obviously it has a sort of slightly it's got a bit of an edge to it. but that is one of the things that is most in tune with the values of this podcast that I've ever heard. I love that and that's part of why I'm so like I wasn't prepared to put the previous episode out as like a sort of rubbish potato quality sound thing. I'm so grateful to you for redoing it because I think You are just one of the most erodite comics and there is such compassion in the way you talk about comedy as being a thing that is there for everyone. it just maybe it's only enough for oneself. That's beautiful. Yeah, I think in terms of everyone's careers, that's why I think if anyone wants to try stand up comedy, the act of trying it is so important and then how we then contontent ourselves with where we reach. I do think part of that journey is going, It's so democratic If I'm putting every gig you're putting You're putting your product out there, you're putting yourself out there the audience decide whether they want to come and see you again, That's up to them. That's the bit you can't control And it must be maybe that's why comics can end up becoming embittered Because if they're putting something up there that they think people want to see that isn't necessarily the song they really truly want to be singing And then people opt out of that That must be incredibly painful Or I think our industry does a gaslight isn't quite the right term because I don't think it's done with malicious intent. But I think sometimes people win awards or are told things in meetings or have agents say things to them and they go, okay, that's true about me. And then their career doesn't reflect it in the same way. I mean, I know someone who was told that he was the voice of his generation And if you say that to a twenty one year old who's just sort of breaking out of the open mic circuit, he will expect big things to happen Because voice of a generation isn't you know, you're quite funny. that's saying the world needs to hear what you're going to say. that makes you visualize, you know I'm going There are people who off the curb, I think we were told, they're the next L Evans. and that does make you think you're going to sell out L two . And that does that can lead to disappointment, I think for everyone. I think sometimes that's what's hard. if you've had a journey that's been less traditional and you've had tougher gigs, like thatve in the Steve Martin book If you've had tougher gigs early on, I think it does make you appreciate any success but know that it could be fleeting afterwards G back to that mock the Wek experience or those four experiences now U Do you find that there are people that you see doing that show don't appear to be scolded when a joke doesn't fire what do you think are the kind of the pantheon of possible responses to making offers? Because I often think of improv people are just used to the idea of throwing out offers. And that's different, isn't it? Because you end up you give loads away and something catches or clowns, you know, you offer and you offer and you offer. somethinghing catches, it works, you do it more. And that's a very different structure, isn't it to being the sort of comic that you are where you have got a thing that is either a deeply held belief, a thing you passionately want to express, or a funny quirky little observation that's about you. they're kind of preloaded So so what are the different sorts of responses that you see on TV shows like Mck where people are putting stuff out Well, I'd say most of the time when you're seeing someone do their first ever appearance, I think they definitely will have worked very, very hard. Usually they'll have done a gig to try out some of the material, especially if there's big stuff in the news. We had stuff with like Kia Starmer and Peter Mandelson. That's definitely the kind of thing that you can write some stand up about and go and try it a gig. as it's happening and then have it ready for mock the week. So they come in very confident And if the first time you talk No one laughs and then none of the established comics meet you. Look at you. So like no one's meeting your eye No one sort of gives a little sort of like fine kind of look. you watch them Sometimes not speak for twenty or thirty minutes or just speak a lot less. And so while they look okay, you can tell that inside there's a crestfallenness of I better be really sure what I'm going to say is good, which is the wrong attitude best way to get through it, but I don't know how you get there without some experience. I don't know how you can just be confident enough. The robustness to go, I'll say another thing and I'll say another thing and one of them will be funny, and that's the one that will go in the edit as the first time I spoke It's the odd double brain if you're not doing a gig, you're making a TV program And this is brand new stuff, and it's rhythm and what you've come after us and what other people are doing at the time that you speak. There are so many variables And I don't know how you get good at that. I wish that they did workshops for young comics The BBC when it used to have more panel shows, what it never invested in especially when they wanted to be more representative and more diverse. They never ever just did loads and loads of run throughs, not as auditions, but to give people a go You know, give give give people on my level a go of hosting. And so show how different that is so that you can empathize why a host can't always help if you've been interrupted or come back to you if If time is moving on, you suddenly understand, oh, okay, it wasn't about me They've got this other job and they've got a voice in their ear. And we've got enough on that section. We don't need your input, that kind of stuff And then it would allow new comics just to sit in those chairs and talk over each other and find out It's so different to stand up If someone interrupts you, you might have a great way of getting back to your punchline But you have to know that from trying it and You have to know sometimes that you have to drop things halfway through that you do a setu up and someone else's drop in is better than the punchline you'd written. and then they get round with applause. But if you learned all that in a safe environment, not thinking I really want them to rebook me This is going to change my if not my months my year in a lower pressure atmosphere than where they did it when it was filmed, they would feel more robust. They would be like, o I remember this feeling I can get round it like this so I can bring it back or producer gave me feedback afterwards and I now know, don't do that Yes, yes, absolutely I've heard that before. I think Rosie Jones might have said something about seeing people do callbacks to a joke that she already knows is going to get cut So it's just kind of like you know what I mean? It's like she's worked in TV production, so I suppose she's sort of effectively had done a lot of those workshop things In terms of your drive as an artist, in terms of your creative drive, you'll need to express yourself How does a show like Mck serve you What is Katherine Ryan, when we did this first episode said something really brilliant and I heard it through a journalist who was interviewing all of the people I'm pretty sure it was Catherine because she said it's like exercising a muscle and I absolutely think that's what it is like. And I think if you think about a tour show as being long distance running in that you train and train and train for it and then it's a really long race. Every show ninety minutes and maybe a bit longer, but essentially what you're doing is pacing yourself and you've spent a year and a half working towards it, whereas Mot the weeek is a across fit class where your heart is just not going to stop beating and you're going ono a different machine, different machine, different machine, and it probably isn't the way that your body loves to exercise, It's a shock to my system but I also think it's really useful to do it. I think the reason I'm back there, I had a big talk with Stein, my husband after the Mck the Weeks, reflecting on it, going, whyy am I putting myself through this? A lot of the people that I did mock the week at the same time as and I texted Josh Widakam actually and I'm not talking out of turn, so I can sort of name him and I said to him, wouldould you come back and do mock? Because he's someone I love sitting next to. He laughs at other comics. I think he's so funny andem And he was good to go on tangents within things and he said it's just too much prep. And That's what it is. It's so much prep. You have to read lots of the news and you have to know what's going on and stuff gets dropped and stuff that happens on the day. and there are the scenes you'd like to see where you do have to think a lot about flyers that come through your letter box and block unlikely titles for blockbusters. And I thought, And I said, Estine, I think it's I don't know if it's wanting to learn wanting to be better at something' that doesn't come naturally to me? O is that a form of masochism? Is it actually I'm there because it makes me feel uncomfortable and I'm not good enough? And I must in some level enjoy feeling crap about myself. And actually the rest of my life is pretty great. So I've like, no, I've got to sit back and watch the week and feel bad at comedy again. Tell me more about that because I totally I feel like I can accept why someone would think like that. I think there are certain things I've done that feel like that. I don't know why. There's something about rejection. and I would probably before Steen say this was true of my love life as well. There's something about someone not wanting you that makes you want it so much And and you do, and part of I h growing up is going, do you only want it because they don't want you? And that's not fair for me to say, because actually M the week do book me. so it's not like they don't want me but there' there's an element of discomfort there because I'm not quite It's not quite what I would do QI or a different show and definitely it's not what I do in my stand up comedy It's a little corner of it. so And I used to have this and I don't know if you have this tobe about circuit comics when I was starting out and I was really lucky. I got on TV very early, I got on the radio very early and then I was doing gigs like trying out at the comedy store. So let's say that comedy store is very much and at that time stallwarted mainly Men men much older than me who'd done three decades and We're doing a twine that was so water tight and the rhythm of it So funny, so many applause breaks and then I was going on an and what I was doing. They were absolutely right to consider it not comedy as they knew it Okay so let's say that that's fair to everyone And also by the way, this is some amazingly deaft language we over here. Yes, I totally get you. some Sometimes it went really well. He was the sort of the odd thing about me, say I'd got two or three years in. I would either go better than those men because I was weirder and different and the audience went for it, or it would go much, much worse than those men. I had no consistency And in terms of what I was offering the audience, it was never like, o my God, this girl's doing this now. Or it was, o my God, what is that girl doing? But either way It's taken such a long time for me and I don't know if it still has left me for me to try and want to convince those men I am good enough to gig with them There were certain men who, um If I was booked with them now if I saw a line up, you know, here's a gig on Friday and I looked at it and I was like, o, Son so's on. I would have a look at my set to go What would complement his material more? What is my punchiest stuff? I wouldn't think about, I would still have in my head I want blah, blah, blah to go home and going, she's really improved. Yeah she's really worked at it. And isn't that odd that's in my head And that must be to do with people pleasing, but I also think it's to do with rejection and people just wanting win people over And yeah, and the discomfort of not someone not rating you R than that, I don't know it's so hard to shrug it off and go it doesn't matter. I'm a different kind of comic. Some comics don't rate each other or we're different enough And that's fine. whenever everyone's a cup of tea, because I respect comics so much hate the idea hate the idea that they just go, yeah I've seen her a couple of times. I mean what how did she For some reason that is a real niggle. Yes And you must have, you're very smart and you will, I'm sure, have reflected on the fact that what those kind of I always remember the phrase I used to have in my head a lot of the time was you'd see an act of those that kind of issue like a comedy store optimized act where the phrase I would always think is you can't get a playing card in between the punchlines, right? It would just be bang bang, bang, bang, bang And then afterwards, you could look back on it, or you could gig there again ten years later and go, it's still predominantly the same stuff. Yeah always destroys clearly optimizing for something different So what you're optimizing for which is this is a series of ninety minute tour shows over the course of ten plus years. I know, but in terms of the audience in the room In terms of who is the funniest? and really that is the only thing that exists for that audience member, in terms of the night I wanted a gig with a comic And so he's one of these guys and it was in Kingston or somewhere and I'd done three gigs. so I was closing that gig and it's exactly what you're saying. I was warming up for a tour. so I was on last And my stuff was much, much, much looser rubbery nowhere near as compact and practed as his, and it was so odd for the audience to have someone that good, with material that good followed by me that it seemed unfair And someone wrote a Facebook message to under I'm tagged. so I'm tagged in the gig, which is how I saw it. And this audience's response is Absolutely what I imagine people would think in this scenario. They don't think that person's working up for a tour and that person's been doing that joke for nineteen years They wrote a thing saying it's unfair that just because she's been on TV, she got to go last because she was so boring in comparison to this brilliant opening act that this person had never heard of before There isn't a thing we can go that's not I would say that That would be my instinct I don't think I could really reflect it too much. My instinct would just be, it's not fair. I want to go out to the audience and go S. Yeah. That's not fair. But then I think those acts feel it's not fair when others of us go to Edinburgh and then yes, have a radio show come out or because they they're their feeling I would imagine and have I think it is explicitly expressed. if you go out for a fag with them or you're stuck in a car on a drive to a gig, it's fair. I rip the roof off at every gig. Where's my staff And I don't know that they do quite comprehend in the same way that you have to you have to you have to have more material to sell it or that once've done once you've done that on TV once, you're going to have to write a brand new set So that's the odd thing about the circuit, isn't it? that some of us are popping in and out of it and other people are just paying their mortgage and that's their living And To do that, they go and they take the best of what they've got that's been honed over so many years And that's what they give the audience. and it is incredible. And I don't know if audiences know that because I think quite often they walk out. if you're going into the car park or to the train station, you hear people talking, they're like, oh my Godd, that guy at the beginning Like whyy is he not in live with the Apollo? That's what they think because it's funniest person they've ever seen And that's where I do think the circuit can get into all of our heads So Yes, I think it's worth as well, I think from the perspective of the person writing that Facebook message, that may well be the s you've got to remember we've all got to remember that people come up to us afterwards and say, do you all go round together on talk? Yeah They have no idea. They have no concept of how it works. I think of the amount of time someone's come up to me after a gig and said, I've never been to a comedy club before And you just have, you know what seems I think that thing I suppose the wider point I would want to make is that the different kind of perspectives that comics have and the audience members have on what this thing is, it is such a fundamentally broad church. Yeah. I often think of it in terms of like agency representation. I've heard, I've been in the room with agents over the last twenty years of various stripes. saying I will act X They're just doing that or they're not doing that. And I always think to myself, ActX doesn't have any of this context. They're just themselves living their one life and their one career and you, the agent, the management person are like pos you're like the dam through which the water is flowing and they're a duck. they're just doing their thing, you know. So to get a sense of that perspective, I think it must be I mean, you do see it when people when acts with some profile who are warming up for tours, warming up for TV and radio shows when They like that gig means to you is so much different, even at the most base level, financially Yeah three hundred and fifty quQid gig means so so much it means completely different things. to someone who's eight years in compared to someone who's got a TV show Yes. So of course you would internally score it as oh lovely, the three hundred and fifty doesn't matter at all because you know that's not on my radar financially, you might imagine. but actually it is simply an opportunity to be in front of an audience and my job is to take risks in front of that audience and be prepared to fail. I think you're really right with that. I think there's two sides to it And this is very relevant to me. So I don't need three hundred and fifty pounds. So I can say that I don't need three hundred and fifty pounds. It doesn't make a difference. So my tax bill, it doesn't make a difference to what I can buy in my weekly shop That's the level that I earn at. I'm incredibly lucky. So if I am taking a three hundred and fifty pound gig. Unless I've put it on myself or a promoter has put on some gigs foret to workout stuff, which some do. I have a couple of really good relationships like Math Brown or Stephen Grant Alexandria, there's a couple of people who they' put stuff when I'm working up for a tour, so I'm very lucky but usually what I'm doing, if I'm taking that gig, I'm taking it away from someone who does need three hundred and fifty pounds. There is an ethical issue there When I was coming up, I saw people doing that and I thought, why are you here? And then and now I am that guy sometimes. and why am I there? And the reason is I don't need three hundred and fifty pounds. What I need is an exposure to an audience who didn't come out specially for me so I can actually see how much of my stuff is good enough and what needs work and What doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't have some backstory about me. that these kind of things are so important. So it's so selfish. I am going out only for me, not for the audience, not for other comedians I guess the audience in terms of like, o a later audience who might benefit from a tour show, but it's so entirely selfish. And I don't really know how you solve that problem because for me Beuse I know some comics they can do maybe six hours and just do it really intently And over those six hours, over those six days, they work up the bulk of their tour show And you could charge your audience a very small amount and be sort of ready. whereereas I just I sort of have to do it all the time because after two or three weeks of not gigging, it feels like I've never gigged before in my life. It just closes over like a hole and like a piercing or something. and so it feels like how did I do it? How do you start it? What do you say to them? When you look at them? Like I finished my tour and Steen was like, why are you I thought you would just be at home With these gigs like this gig tomorrow I' nvous at. If I haven't gigged recently, that's even scarier. But the fact is I did five gigs this weekend, so at least I did those five gigs with this corporate in my head If I looked at my diary and I saw latitude coming up and I wasn't gigging every week, that would make me feel sick So It's not a thing I can turn on and off. It does feel like it's a thing that will heal over. like comedy is some kind of scab that if I don't keep picking at it, I'll just become a normal person and I'll find aata. And I What would that mean to you, Sarah? Well I think it would mean that I'd be quite happy actually. much happier. So I was going to say so some comics in terms of using writers When you're on TV, when you've got a corporate, when you're hosting a big event show, I think some comics and I would say people like Stewart Lee and Robin Inns, again, I don' think I'm slighting those men. They've said these things publicly. They do think there's an element of cheating involved. And I think in comedy, I think we can all work to our own morality and I think when I first started, I thought that using writers was cheating. I still think probably for a tour show Yes. Other comedians might sort of shrug their shoulders and go, but that's most intensely us But I think in terms of people who work a lot on TV, they can't work a lot on TV and be good quality unless they've got someone generating ideas for them did when I hosted comedians giving lectures Lots of comics wrote their own lectures. And lots of comics had had writers write lectures for them that they then edited and put into their own words. or some people came and did it word for word and I think the people who wrote their own noctters were better The people who were very more successful, but other people who wrote their letters were also very good And I think that there's an element of paying people well for writing when they're on the way out I don't want to say it's like trickle down economics because I think that's usually an excuse for rich people staying much richer. I think I think there can be great experience gained by really great com comics. and Morgan Rese is a great example of someone who is writing for you on this thing, but hopefully one day we'll get booked for something similar himself if not he already is. Sure, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You're not using someone who's not as good as you. You're using someone who's really great at a different stage in their career. With Mock the Week, the two people who wrote for me were Freya Mallard and Tom Ward, who are a couple. And also both brilliant comics who I hope will be doing what the week next series or the series after. so they get to gain a little bit of experience about the prep That's what I and I'm not saying that is like I wasn't doing them a favor they were working for me And then there's an element of you pay people well for their ideas. and I'm not going to rip them off for the rest of my life. I han't taken their jokes and put them into my sets so I could make money off them ad nauseum. I think I'm really comfortable with the process now and that that's how comedy works, that sometimes you just need another angle, another head, another brain on something. Yes. And it's really the thing is so many comics, so many brilliant comics, some of whom might poo the idea of working with writers will go and sit in the pub with their mates and say a thing their friends said I mean, or I saw the funniest thing ever. You know, you're reporting a thing you happen to see. L I don't really see the difference. Yeah, certainly, if it's a tour show, I don't see any problem. L I wouldn't have a writer for a tour show you know pitching me jokes that would seem like I don't even think now I would have an ethical problem with that. It's just not what I want to do. because that's the point of the Tour show or the Finge show is to say my thing But I'd be more than happy. I'm working with Deck Monroe directing my show at the moment. And if he says, you keep saying stuff like this, you're overusing this. you go, oh great. all of this sort of stuff, it's like I just don't I don't have a problem with it and certainly not for corporates, I think, and like you say for TV shows Yeah think I think a lot of the people who against the idea, once they're in that seat themselves, they will understand why you do it because If you've used up your best one liners and stand up in a couple of panel shows And so you do have to generate some new ideas. You then realize, oh, am I going to be bad next time or am I going to use a writer? You then suddenly realize why, if you're busy There's a real use to it So this is Sarah. You can see Sarah Pasco for one night only at this year's Edinburgh fringe at the underbelly on the fifth of August. So go to Sarah Pasco. co. uk to find out more and you can follow her on Instagram at Sarah. Pasco. Huge news now. I'm going on tour. I've sort of teased this a little bit and if you've been listening hard you'll have guessed already. If you're on the mailing list Probably already you have bought your tickets, God love you. But I am going on tour for the first time in nearly a decade with my new climate comedy show Canary. I'm going to be at the following places. I'm going to be in Edinburgh at Cabreay Voltaire, Cab Volult to those in the know. That's under the Monkey Barrel comedy banner from the seventeenth to the thirtieth of August at two twenty five, which is convenient unless you have a job two twenty five daily from the seventeenth to thirtieth. No day off. It's only a two week run. And then this is the rest of the places. I'm going to between September throughout September, October and November, I'm going to Cambridge Junction, Glasgow St. I'm going to the old fire station in Oxford Fairfield Social Club in Manchester, the Sherman Theatre in Cardiff, Nordon Farm in Maidenhead, the Foundry in Sheffield, Birmingham Gley, and then the biggest headline show of my young career. It's going to be at the Bristol Old Vic and I'm super stoked about that. If you are listening in the southwest, get your ass to Bristol. I would love to fil that glorious venue which I believe to be the oldest continually producing. there in the country. Which does sound caveat, isn't it? anyt timee I hear something's a specific thing all due respect to Bristol Lodvk, of course it always reminds me of my brother telling me that he went on Britain's most southerly roller coaster.. But that room is glorious. I've done bundles of you know, charity gigs for the Great Western Air Abulance and others besidide the was it the sort of hospitals thing as well And a bunch of other places I've troded the boards there many a time and the idea of doing my own show there is really exciting. So if you know anyone in Bristol, send them along. You can find out how to get tickets for all of those at Stuartgoldsmith dot com slash comedy. I'm funneling you all through there and at the bottom of that page you can also find out how to join the Comcompod monthly mailing list in the second half of this episode. We are going to discuss something at which Sarah excels, which is making complex ideas funny And we'll talk about the pressure involved in that process. We'll talk about the comedy principle that Sarah still refuses to compromise on, why audiences can feel when a comic is unsure on stage, and we'll also discover the impossible balance between truth and funny in standup. And then we'll find out whether or not the bastard's happy. Let's get back Sarah Pascoe Let's talk a little about the Tour show which you were in towards the end of when we last spoke. It's called I am a Strange Goop, which is such a you title. It's like I am a not quite I don't know if you'd call yourself mainstream, but you are a profile comic doing large venues, unafraid of taking weird risks and giving it a clunky, awkward title that might alienate some people but which others will go, this is why we love ceremonies. I really wish I hadn't called it that. I hadn't realized at the time that it was a odd title or an unusful title. I was thinking the other day after the tour had finished, what should I have called it that would have been clearer? And I've thought of so many titles. I could have used a one word title or I was thinking something about Anyway, anyway, it's too late to name the show. it's finished as a tour, but I didn' I did not love it being that title, even though it did make it quite clear what the show was about. I think sometimes being Sometimes being more obtuse about what the show is about actually helps people to just come and see it and then they find out what it's about Well I what I loved because it was about the Or you know a lot of it was about the experience of the bewildering, exhausting nature of parenting two young children And but also about the idea of self and where is the self and this brilliant metaphor about being you know a caterpillar liquidizing inside a cocoon, all this kind of stuff I wondered if the title The title seemed hundred percent authentic. That is the title that you bewildered and exhausted would have called your show about how bewildered and exhausted you are. Yes. And I think it also, I don't know if this was in your mind at all when you named it, but I think to an extent it did have You'll see like an original tweet going aroundound, which I can't attribute. about women dyeing their hair red or you know, purple or green or something. where some belligerent dickhead man has said, Ohh, yeah, that's not really attractive to which the response is no, in nature. This is to repel predators. I see. And I love that. This iss just one of those things I think of whenever I see people with purple hair. I think, yes, good for you, you know. yeah. I wonder if there's an element or if it was in your mind that calling it I am a strange gloop would be unattractive to the sorts of people who you don't necessarily want at your show. No, Stew, absolutely not. I would want really in terms of tour sales, I would love everyone to come and then I would want to win them over ideally. because I Because I knew that there was this book called I Am A Strange Loop about the self, I just thought everyone would get the punch So it was the first time I'veard of it, I'm afraid of. Yeah exactly. So it was just a really, really bad choice And if I'd called it Who is Sarah Pasco? Like something I could have done something that could just it could have looked like it was about anything and still would have fit with the theme But I but I love it. there is an element of it, which is like this person is an artist It's like, you know, you you can have the poster for that show and I haven't seen the poster, so I hope I'm not made you a mistakake. but it could have been you with a baby in one hand and a microphone and the other g. Do mean We've seen that poster a million times, right? And the title could have been a similar version of that. It could have been like what's the, you know, Cryy what's going on in my life? I've got yogurt on my top, but I'm having a nice time one hundred percent Yeah. Where is it? It was an oblique choice And mod and quirky and did faithfully reflect a show in which there's material about Albert Camus the myth of Sisyphus and the nature of the self, and you know Yes. So I amm a stranger. I back that title, you don't like. Okay, thank you. I don't like it. So the first bit of press I did, I was on Ryan and Scott Mills' radio show. Not radio showow on their podcast. And it was the first time I'd sort of said and the first question about when you're doing that kind of stuff where people haven't seen the show and they probably haven't seen you stand up is, so why is it called, I'm a strange Group? They just made they just ripped the piss out of me And then it was at that point I realized, well, have I called at this? And then right up until the Jonathan Losshow, which I did in the last two weeks of the tour And he went, whyy is it called that? And I still didn't have a good answer? I didn't have a succinct, funny answer Apart from, o I'm just a broken woman and they make you name it, you know, eighteen months before you go on the tour. And I was so tired and I thought, how can I talk about who I am? I'm not anyone anymore Anyway, so I did regret it but I' am a strange loop, the book is written by a man called Douglas Hogstaffer who wrote Girdle Esa Bark. Have you read that book? I haven't, by the way. Have you ever heard of it? Well anywways, it's a really very clever sort of a philosophy book about those people Girdle, Esher Eschher the drawer and Bark, the musician about and I think it' the maths of how they construct their work And so then he wrote the second one afterwards called I am Est strrange Loop about how the self works, how the self makes itself. how the self knows it is a self And I thought, o how amazing, I'll read that book and I'll structure my show around that book. And then the book was too complicated. I got about eleven pages in So when I was first previewing the show That book was mentioned quite a lot in it he dedicates it to only one of his sisters For instance, he dedicates his book to the onene who gets it. He's got two siss anyway. So there was stuff that was funny in anyway, Obviously, none of that was actually in the Tour show at the end So it then just becomes this is title is sort of left You know, like when the creatures evolved. You know how like we've got like the stub of a tail we don't need. That's that title all of these old ideas that didn't ever exist in the show. such is the creative process. Exactly. And again, that's what I kind of the disclaimers about yeah, the audiences who come to see us You can't give them this whole pamphlet of backstory. This is why it's called that and No, no, but the title itself and I'd never heard of the book or the reference. does suggest depth. It worked for me. And did. That's why it worked for me And I'm not arguing the point here, but I think part of what work for me is something else I want to talk to you about, which is about your authenticity Yeah Like I feel that is one of your strongest suits is that you are fundamentally a very authentic voice I feel like if you think something, you'll say it. I feel like I trust everything you say. I don't feel like you're making anything up You might be, you know there are comics where you go, this is an observational comedian. you mentioned Josh before. I know that Josh Whittdakam's angle on this is that if a joke reveals a wider truth, then it is effectively true and you can say it as if it's true. And I don't think there are any hard and fast rules, but that's like one point on the scale. I think that The way you were the way you work from from the recording you sent me and the other stuff that I've seen you do I think that you are more authentic than that in terms of you are grappling with something. A lot of your material is you struggling and you grappling with something and I feel that's an authentic grapple Y I feel like You prettend anything. Hm it's od and it's interesting. I think it's very it's a very nice way to look at me as a very positive way to describe me because I think words like authenticity feel of value And it feel and sort searching for truth, for instance, you know, whether it's about oneself or the world, it feels like a very worthy thing to be doing But it's not intentional, Stu. Like I I so much I'm so much. When I was at school primary school, secondary school. I was told that I was weird and I felt there were things I did. and I was so hard doing an impression of the other children. I was trying so hard to fit in and I just couldn't And I feel like that same thing has happened with comomedy and it's not a painful thing necessarily, but I really think I'm doing an impression of Michael McIntyre. I really am doing my version of Th the people that I think are brilliant of at comedy and everyone likes it and agrees that is comedy. When I'm writing my new stuff, that's what I think I'm doing So I've got this new bit at the moment. It's not really a bit actually, it just ends, but it's about how I wish my dog would lay eggs. When I'm coming up with it, I think brilliant 've got I've got my out out. I've got my man drawer. This is going to be my bit. It's the dogs laying eggs. And then I tried it like claing gnd. and as it's happening, I'm like, what are you saying? But I really am trying to do proper comedy And so maybe that's the thing about and maybe that's the thing about the self and what we all do We keep coming back to the person we are and that's the comedian that you are. and you really can't deviate that much from it. And to deviate from it is to be much worse, not better So The years of comedy, the thing that you really do end up honing is the truer version of yourself the true version of your clown self, which is your comedy self and you follow where people laugh the most and audiences really can sniff out when you're trying to pretend to be something that you're not. They really know how present you are in what you say and they really know how much you really care about saying it They were comics whose best routines care so much about them saying it. but I don't care about the topic. could I remember Russell Howard once talking about Catherine Ryan complimentarily saying like how incredible she was and he's saying I don't care about Cheryl Cole or the Kardashians, but when she talks about Cheryl Cole or the Kardashians . And I think that's such a good example of really great comedians I can't do a routine about the Kardashians, not caring about the Kardashians because then no one cares They don't care that I can't pretend But we know when someone's passion we know we sniff it out when it's fake. And I think that is the thing if you You do sometimes look at other comics. I followed someone the other day. I was late for a gig at the weekend and I followed Bemi. His clips are brilliant online as well. He does lots of stuff at topop secret. He's got this most incredible I'd say it's like sunshine, but the speed of which he talks in the energy means that it's like and it's so amazing when a comic does that. cascades over you layer over layer. and he's you know, he's not he's not reinventing the wheel and and I don't say as a critical way. I mean He's talking about easasyJet and how he doesn't want to die an E easyJet flight. But he would So it's a really simple premise. It's absolutely universal. We've all been on shit airlines, but the waves of the jokes coming over you and the speed of which he talks and I'm just backstage going, I want to be him I want to start again in comedy. I'll just get a new name because it's very hard. I can't just go out on stage if they know me as the old me, and I have to reinvent myself. I'll get a hat And I'll start the open mic circuit again and I want to watch how he speaks, that rhythm of words coming one after the other and the jokes just being hidden in there like nuggets and the audience are laughing at different times. and I'm like, this is the worst thing to think before you go on is I want to be an entirely new comedian based on that guy, but that's how I feel when I watch really funny people. Mark Watson has a similar thing with rhythm, where I watch him and his voice and he's It's so inbuilt in him Things are so funny that written down, I couldn't repeat them as a joke, but they are so funny And I just have that so much about other comics. So when you say something really lovely about authenticity, what I think is like, I know, but I don't really want to be me. I just really'd like to be someone else. Well, I think it's an interest I think the result that we see on stage in one of your shows is you with your unique worldview trying really hard to make your unique worldview about your dog laying eggs to be relatable. Yes. mean and maybe that's one of the when I say you're grappling, mayaybe that's what you' grappling with you are like the bit the bit about Albert Camus is so Like you're doing a thing, I think we may have talked about this a little bit last time. You're doing a thing I'm really impressed by and kind of I want to do that kind of I'm trying to do a lot of that myself with the stuff that I do about climate and sustainability. You are explaining something very complex and intellectual, let's say, but you're doing it in language which is completely accessible and relatable in order to make a point which is accessible and relatable, but no less you know, when you're talking about the self and what is the self, at one point I think in the show you talk about how am I a gas with eyes that I'm looking at top you know, that's a pretty head wobbling kind of an idea. but I don't feel like there's anyone in the audience with their arms folded going can't contact what she means You're making it understood and you're making it explicit. So maybe it is part of that desire to go it's a gas with eyeballs. I'm going to do this like McIntyre. Mbe that's one of the things that makes you I think that maybe that is the nub of it is that unfortunately I don't have ideas like the man draw. I'm still waiting for something which is just so obvious and everyone knows it and it means it's just the most perfect routine where you show someone the world and it was already the world. Now it will always be attached to you People still say out out when they're going out, referencing not only the fact that they used to say it, but also Mickey Flanagan, that to become something so culturally embedded because you what you observed was so perfect anyway My main thing is that I do think that people are made to feel stupid notot by stand up comics, never by stand up comics becausecause our whole thing is to be understood and we're there for everyone So if you want to mention something that might make someone go this isn't for me or I don't know the person you're referencing It always has to be done in a way where number one, you completely explain it so there's no miscomprehension. Gee So after you've said it and told them who it is, now they do know So they they're all absolutely level. There's no superiority of having heard of someone or not. like Being aware of Alberir Kamu is no different to being aware of Kim Kardashian. There are people in the audience who won't have heard of I'm trying to think of someomeone like Stephen Fry remember in some of the ear days of QIs know, he wouldn't have heard of Katie Price or something. and' like that doesn't mean that he's dumb. It just means he imibes culture in a different way and Yeah, that bit about the self and the gas behind my eyes. when I was postpartum, One of the big things that happened to me and actually only ended up being a shadow of it in the show was that I really kept seeing Jimmy Savill when I looked in the mirror this u I really was something about my face and I kept saying to Kry out my best friend Why has no one told me I looked like Jimmy Savill And And she was like, this is just hormones. I went No, I said, no I look like Jimmy Sell. I got very similar hair and then ended up I did have a joke in the show not saying that it was a post paroning, but for months. I kept having this weir dysorphia patch you me Svel to anyway It's very hard to make the postpartum psychosis funny, but you do end up with a tiny bit and that thing about thinking walking around my house in the middle of the night and not sleeping not feeling like my body was mine that it was a vehicle and I was just looking out of my own eyes. I did eventually get to that that joke about getting out of my body, but it is a long bit of my show without a punchline. And you can't have too many of them, but I do feel the audience on Ti feel the audience go, whereere is she going with this? And as long as you only do it once or twice, it's so enjoyable to actually know You will laugh in a minute. It just feels like a long time since you have. Yes. Yeah. Yes, that's interesting, isn't it? The feeling The feeling in you on stage Do a very deliberate thing where you know that you're getting a point across like job is to make you laugh. We're doing ninety minutes worth of that. Yeah bit like so the feeling for you, is there a kind of an elasticity there where you're thinking, well, I hope this does, like if they if if someone coughs on a key worord in the one punch line at the end of a three minute weird wobbly bit Re heck like Yeah, exactly. you what I mean? is there still a tension of that for you? orr with your audience, do you feel you've built up enough trust? Because though that bit, even though it's less punchline dense, it's the it's my favorite and most memorable bit from the show And also that was the point of what I was trying to say in the whole show to bring it back to the title. if I cut that bit, suddenly it's just some jokes about being a new mom. It doesn't have this bit of being a new mom led to me losing myself And so that bit is so vital. I would say it's like that bit on a roller coaster where it starts going really slowly before the hill And actually what you can't do even if you so when you feel them go Iang know more What is she talking about You can't speed up, you can't try and get. You actually have to sort of just absolutely Be fearless. and this is the bit I wanted to say to you I wanted to say this to you and And then there's a release of tension when it's over Oh, that's what she meant and then back to another bit. So I do think there's something somethingomething enjoyable about it. I remember What's his name? Scott It all American it Sot Scottapo, he once said we did a panel together and he was saying that a boo was as good as a laugh B was because like when you you know, and I've never felt that, but I know some comics do. it's wired in the same way. That reaction is all you want Differe to my understanding of Ka, I totally get what he means. We made the kind of boo he means. he doesn't mean it's not boo, your bad quality It's boo I am against what that joke was And that's their way of laughing at that joke. And I think if you've gone to a Scotcaapuro show, you have gone for that. And if he then crosses a line that even you, a Scottcaapuro fan didn't enjoy, I can absolutely imagine that. but yeah, thatn be that wouldn't be for me that life. I couldn't live that life Some of your stuff is, I think Some of your stuff is sort of agitational. Some of your stuff is like, here is a thing that I feel that you, my audience might be with me on, but that other people won't like And I'm thinking about some of your stuff about masculinity or some of your stuff for lads, lads lads. Yeah Is there is there a bit? group that you are or in any other show that you are particularly proud of having managed to get over the linine with a crowd That's a very good question I in glp, I would say just a bit about saying that I'm trying to well that I am aging without procedures and Botox and saying it in a way where I don't think I'm shitting on anyone who does do those things becausecause I think two things can be true at the same time I think I think we've all gone absolutely insane trying to look younger than we are. Rather than doing the work of accepting, you are aging, you will die This is I think the bio hacking thing is mad. And I think the amount of money that people spend on Cosmetic beautifying procedures and I don't think that is as gendered as it used to be. I think it's insane, but I think that that insanity is a response to we have been sent insane by social media and capitalism. That's what I really, really feel And there's a bit in my show where I feel I've managed to get round that in such a non attacking way by talking about mice being sewn together, an experiment about mice being sewn together. And then in a later version of the Tour and it wasn't in there at the beginning, I talk about the very powerful men who are extremely vain and insecure And again, it's very brief Dondrump, Elon Musk and Brian Jhson, who's a biohacker. And I do that not by And I really like that I've left women out of it. that I'm not talking about women with fillers in their face and I'm not talking about L Island contestants and I'm not talking about that for me, that is an instance where I go, it's what I believe and I think it's important that people hear it of every age. And I really think it's important that there's amplified voices going. Some people are actually aging naturally. It's not everyone and you don't have to. And actually also, you don't look as terrible as you think you're going to look if you don't do it But no one's really saying that and everyone pretty much on television is having stuff done Also saying it out loud means that I never will do it as in I never can. And I do have weekdays. you know, you look at people who look incredible and you go, I'll fuck it and Saying it out loud does sort keep you keep you honest in a way It would be so much worse to say it and then do it Yes, ye, definitely, definitely. I felt that very keenly, I did lots of annti being a runner material years ago and now I'm a runner and I'm perpetually worried someone's going to stop me and go o you Yeah. The running comm community don't want you after all that to do. Exactly yeah banned from partner. Um You said years ago, when you last were on the show, which must be twelve years ago or more You said, I think you said at the time that one of your plans in your life was to become an MP. Yes, it was It was a plan I had u At fourteen or thirteen, whenever I decided I wanted to be an actor the way that my decades were plotted out. forties was for literature. I wanted to write my first book at forty. and then I wanted in my fifties, I was very aware that I had made very selfish choices as in I wanted to be a performer. and also very aware. This was at fourteen because I wanted to be an actor. My sister Cheryl who's twelve at the time. Soays being an actor is really selfish. My sister, Cheryl is now she teaches GCSE English in a school in North Essex And she also loves running, by the way. And she's so incredible. And so she's much more talented than me and this was explicitly expressed by our ammateur Dramatics group and our family And she made this decision when acting' really selfish. It's just about you I think putting MP on the end this is my misunderstanding, I think of politics That's how you give back at the end. I thought I'll go my. Yeah That's how you do you good I I thought I'll do these selfish things. And then but also I did think even at that age, I was like, I'll have a profile and then I'll use that profile to get into politics. This is before people like Boris Johnson had happened. I don't know how I understood And then even when I was starting comedy And I was learning how to write comedy and how to talk in front of people and I still at that point thought this will all be so useful when I'm doing speeches. I' want to do such incredible speeches that comprehensive talk down to people and are funny because you can release tension whenever you want. And I thought all of these skills would be so great. and I think some point Obviously since that twelve years ago One thing I realized is that I couldn't be hated in the way that politicians are hated. Politicians let people down And also even when they don't let people down, the way that we talk about what they look like the way that they are so the enemy. I just don't know how any of them, I don't know how any of them can do it. And I know that you could just not have social media and Not no what they said about you in the papers, you could just choose to as much as you I could put cott mine in yourars, I don't know how I do this for my family I don't think I could deal with the constraints of wanting to do good and not being able to do it seeeeing the numbers and going it's a choice between that and that I don't know, even on like a local politicians level, how People need things and it's not fair that they don't have them. And actually what needs to happen is dramatic restructuring economics But because that was that was my idea was that I would where my kids a bit older and that point obviously when I spoke to I't know I'd have kids but I still had this idea about doing Do an economics degree, doing a degree properly And maybe that is something I would do because I think that's something that you would have to understand really properly before you went into politics I think a lot of us have really sort of in our stomach moralistic views. that it's no good if we can't back them up with how you pay for it and how you pay for it in terms of understanding taxation and So there's this this But in terms of politics itself, I think In terms of my third act, which I would like to be much more generative, it might end up just being that I run drama groups that are really cheap because I believe so much in drama being so helpful for young people. or I get involved with a charity that already exists and you have become some kind of You work in something where you just concentrate on fundraising and doing the good things without the political umbrella Do think I've had the most amazing life I'm so lucky in all the things that have happened And there is a point on the not too distant horizon, five years, seven years where I would love I wouldd love to be going have made enough money You know the thing we look at other people and again, back to the three hundred and fifty pound gigs or surely they don't need sureurely they don't need that. I would love to be at the point where I go, I don't. I don't want my kids to be rich. think being growing up rich Eespecially if there's money in the bank for you at certain ages fucks you up. I don't want them to have it I'd like to sort of live by example. If I get to have an older age I'd love to go. Yeah, I spent the years into what in my early retirement doing valuable things And there's more that yeah I'm sorry. that would feel to me like balancing out how lucky I've been. I would go, I was so lucky and that's what lucky people should do afterwards is helpelp other people be luckier Yes. You will know who said this, probably more than I can remember, The purpose of freedom is to free other people I don't have may have been Mayare Angelou. I think Oh I saw it recently. I haven't read about Maya Angelo, but I saw it on like in something pathetic like on a poster, but that really, really stayed with me. and I think that's kind of pertinent like Be because when you are free Especially if you weren't forree in, myangela would be a very interesting person if that's what she said because she had such a hard life. And then perhaps she felt more privileged later on to have a platform and to be have money from her very, very successful books and things like that. then what you realize is It is so much better It is so much better to have to have choices and There's no reflection of worth of humanity from the people at the top and the people who are struggling Lower down Do you? How is your perception of your ability to change the world? through your work changed Why early on in comedy I realized that lots of people in the eighties and early nineties had talked about how bad aeropplane food was. Airopplane food had never improved I kept hearing comedians talking about comedy change in the world and I was like, there was one thing they had for a decade. They kept saying The meal'n't very good on aeroplanes. we could say such a vivid example It's unavoidable too have seen that many routines and I'm talking about people et what's his name? Eddie U withith the Jack Edie Mury I'm talking about the most famous comedians in the world talking to everybody. What I basically knew is we could tell ourselves We're doing a huge amount of good but I think that's Not quite right. I think we should be making the world better, not worse That's not an exc to go. It doesn'tatter what we say, it does matter what we say. I think we're usually reflective rather than leading change in terms of how cultural perceptions change in terms of politics feminism, gender identity. I think in the In the main, most comedians that I know I've got a really good grip of trans rights, I've got really good grips on sex and gender and self identifying and things like that vast majority politics have comedians U Otherwise because otherwise people big groups of people wouldn't come to see you. wouldn't come to see you So And I think that then we can reflect that back. So I think that there are There were people Climate change is a great example with feminism where you go, they're so funny. Pople are so funny and then people com and listen to them and maybe some of their ideas are broadened or They already agreed, but they hadn't quite thought about something in that kind of way. so they're maybe opinions are confirmed or sharpened. So I definitely think we could be part of a wave of U improvement and betterterness and kindness and empathy and all of those things. withith the invention of the novel They said that it was They sort of measure it as a point of society becoming more empathetic. And for instance, Uncle Tom's cabin is one of the in pointos in terms of white people understanding racism a bit better and systemic racism and the movement for anti slavery, the abolishment of slavery, because novel's all about empathy for a really long time being in someone else's mind and sometimes seeing how they experience the world. Stand upp comedy isn't quite that. We talk about ourselves and they watch us. so they don't get inside our heads feeling us, but we do tell them a little bit about what it's like to be us. So I do think there's an element of we can do goodness. but I can't think of anyone individually where I'm like, they got that prrime Minister elected or they got Nil Barj out. These things that really do need to happen. I think there are other kinds of I think that The little the seaw between activism and comedy is a really delicate balance and I don't think anyone can pat themselves on the back too much the comedic side. I think when I was a teenager I would watch Mark Thomas on TV. that has made it impossible for me to take certain You know, I like no matter what they did and how they changed, I could never vote conservative. And that is informed by amongst other people, Mark Thomas. Like there was a lot of kind of eighties and nineties overtly political comedy, notot a lot, a very small amount, really, but it really connected with me when I was developing my personality, I suppose. Yeah. And think but I think you're absolutely right is you can't really point to direct effects so much as if someone is a massage therapist, then they get to massage one person at a time and improve their life briefly, you know, if it's a course or a massage or a one off, you know, maybe they put a spring in that person's step. And I think as comics, the bigger audience we have, the more people we can kind of massage that may be in the context of comedy a bad analogy. But it's a great analogy as long as you don't actually touch anyone touching hearts. yeah, absolutely and that's where to come back to my insecurity or my that scolding feeling of not being funny It's like I gave him a bad massage You came here to feel more relaxed and you' walked out of here and your shoulders are just as high and tight as they were before. I have failed. feel that failure bothers me And And I think the moment when that failure stops bothering us, that's where we know, I can't do this anymore as a job. because I don't care. So I think the act of being entertainers entertaining people and making them have a happy time is vital and important and we charge for it and we get paid and I think that's all great. I think that's all completely fair I think it's all completely fair. I think sometimes we're so desperate for hope that we would love to think that our how much we think about these things and how much we want the world to be better. I think we might sometimes some people might get a bit carried away with what our real use is. I guess what I think at the moment, all the time is we just have to be doing so much more Once we have a mouthpiece and people listen to us and And it doesn't mean we have to. Sometimes we're not comortable it, sometimes it's too much, sometimes we just want to be funny. and I think that's enough. It's not like I think we have to, but I also I think the danger is always thinking you've done thinking you've done something when you haven't really My dad always used to talk about I was talking about my mom, but crying at the news and he said, There's no point crying at the news. It makes you feel like a good person, but you haven't done anything. And I I think that's what influenence me as a very young person So I'd rather be honest and go, I haven't done anything than No, I think I did something things didn't You know what I mean? Yeah. Yes. yourour dad struck upon the concept or a parallel concept to white tears very early on before it was. I really saw that happen. I was at an event in New France and a person was giving a very passionate speech about their experience of climate change in Uganda and the effect on their children. And literally someone older American white lady interrupted them to make it all about her And I was just like everyone around the room was going, oh, this is it. We're seeing that this is the thing that' seeing it live. It's extraordinary It is extraordinary. But also we allve inside ourselves and this is not me try to be overc comppassionate that woman but We do have to learn that we're not the main character Otherwise we live our lives like we are and that Uganda's about us soon as I've heard a bit about it, o Yes is now this is now what I think about it to tell others. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I think but you're absolutely right. And of course we have passion for that person as well. But I suppose I just think yes, it's a balaning act, isn't it? between thinking you've not done anything and actually going, o look, I am trying. I think to myself a lot. We'll wrap up just one of two little things I wanted to just draw a line under 'm One of the things I think when I'm trying to do climate comedy and it doesn't strike, you know, trying to do material out in a difficult context or newer material, what have you. One of the things I think is I'd come back to thinking Hey, I could have not tried This is trying is definitely better than not trying. It definitely would be easier not to try So just that little thing like surely that is one step on the right path even if it doesn't work or didn't work And I think as well just to mimic your wonderful natural structural finesing of this interview, back to the topics that we covered at the part. justust to briefly mimic that I wonder if in the massage analogy, you going on Mck the week is like going right. Sometimes I'm going to try and massage like a bodybuilder just to see if I can make a difference in difficult terrain just to keep the You know, variations of the gears working to kind of keep flexibility. Yes. there's an element of that. It's going or a there very different form of massage that I've not trained in properly. I'm much less experience. If I'm doing a nice Swedish one and then someone needs yeah, it's a deep tissue.'s something it's something else.'s rofing, it's something that I'm not quite qualified to do Unqualified Rolf with Sarah Baskco. Yes if we named episodes, that would be it. And Reese James is very good at Rolf thing. He does it every week. But I don't know how he feels about whether or not he's aghhast looking out from some eyes that may I don't think we'll ever know He'll never tell us. So in your show just before the interval, of your Tour show, you have a climate joke which I which my ears pricked up at, which was a very funny joke about the amount of carbon a human will produce in their lifetime, and it kind of said something about It' a joke about offsetting it if I can I've had kids, that's bad. But if I can convince you not to have kids then I've offset the kids that Ive, whichich is a lovely joke And also, I was really pleased to see you tackling something climate wise. Yes Is that something that you How do Okay, two things. How do you feel we're doing cllimate w? Yes. Yeah. How do you feel we're doing? How do you feel we and what do we need to do and How much do you How much are you motivated to talk about it So the show, when I started it, I wanted to talk a lot about climate catastrophe. I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to have these two climax points, one of them And they both got cut in the end, the one that you're talking about about carbon emissions and how mine have tripled since having children and that how because I talk very negatively about having children, perhaps I could put two people in the audience off having kids and that would offset mine. I was really satisfied and pleased with that because actually the important detail I wanted to ring in people's ears in that agitating way is how much carbon we produce every year I guess my awareness is, this is how much carbon I produce every year. And one of the things that's really shocking to me about having children, along with the domestic drunchery is the environmental costs The amount of washing I have to do every day, the amount of clothes I have to buy as they grow, the toys that they play with and how they are made and what they are made out of I would say that I Before I had children, and as a plant based eater had an element of I was trying to do as little damage possible. I stopped buying any clothes from shops, only buy secondhand clothes from vinted. So have I have sort of morality where I'm okay with it as in I've let I go, that's the best you can do while also having a nice dress when you go on TV, all these kind of things, I'd sort of worked out my moral ways. I found out that vegan leather was really bad in terms of it's plastic and it breaks really soon so you have to look into better forms of shoes, but I've got the money that I can do that, I can look for really great really great people that might be from Catalonia companies I mean who are making. So anyway, what I'm try to say is I had this time where I felt like I was constantly If not month on month, year on year, I was getting better. in terms of the damage I'm doing to the planet by existing in the Western world, as a consumer, in my consumption and then having children sent it out the windows. So that is something I so wanted to address in the show And I don't know if this is what you're finding, but I found that maybe paranoia or maybe a real intuition with the audience. People really don't like being told about it because they feel bad as well And they either feel like I know this and I feel bad, or Don't you tell me I'm already being told and I'm not going to. It's either a stubbornness andn't We know and we're the good guys and we're already doing all of the same things as you. so this is boring to us. Or it's actually it's so terrifying. What do you say? Do you say the predictions? Do you talk about you know, carbon dioxide that's about to be freed from the oceans because of melting ice caps. Do you talk about stuff that the catastrophe and then The reason I thought the show was the perfect place to talk about it was because having young children. suuddenly, these dates in the future I know what ages they're going to be and these things are happening hundred percent. And so I thought, it's so funny to talk about how selfish we are. I didn't really care as much about twenty fifty or twenty eighty five when I was going to be dead, but my children won't be dead. And the idea of Anone's children all of a sudden, bits awome sort And so I was trying to find funny ways to talk about that even though having children has made me much worse of a consumer. So it's this irony. This was my the whole ironic point I wanted to make about this show wanted to make in that show was that the ironic thing of having children that made me cared more about the future, which is ironic because the worst thing you can do for the future is put more people on the planet dad d da And then so much of it got cut and so much of it It's it's a howl into the dark and Howl isn't stand up comedy. It's a howl. And so then you go where else do I do it? Do I talk about it on podcast? Do you write books? Do you just you talk about it in your life? Do you I think every single stand up that I have seen recently will have a reference. There's something. and in terms of the new stuff I'm writing, I'm not trying to write a show about climate change, but already I've got You know, the thing in hotels I'm sure you talk about it where they have signs now to ask you not to wash your towels. Really observational. Ifveryone's seen those towels, Hotel Divan give you a free glass of wine if you choose not to have your room cleaned while you're there because I've been on tour. I've seen all the different hotels and their versions. so the wines from New Zealand, don't? Exactly, exactly. So so there's all these great It is observational society as a whole is talking about it. It doesn't have to be a howl into the dark It's then about useful choices and failures and all of those things. so I do think I'm really engaged and want to do it. but I think I really aware of how difficult it is to be really, really funny at the same time. The trade off will be, it will be small bits. The ending of my show originally was that I hadd written a Third Testament to the Bible, which was about saving the world and it was about climate change, and it was about how We'd have all these plagues in the Bible, Mosquitoes. I'm not doing the bit by the way, This is me telling you what the bit was. you know plagues of locusts and pigs and that we'd never realize that human beings were the real plague. And just like locustists, we know that what we're doing is going to be the destruction of us. We're eating all the crops, we're breeding And there's like a Greta Thumberg locust who's saying to the others, if we keep heating at this level, we're going to run out of crops and then we're all going to die. And we just we can't stop we were programmed by evolution to be a certain way. Oh my Godd, was it intelligent? And yes, it was. Was it worth writing in a Bible and standing reading a Bible to an audience No, it wasn't It wasn't it? It had a callback to a Paula Radcliffe. It did have a strong joke. It just wasn't it just wasn't right It would be absolutely great at ACMS or an Edinburgh S show, I think I'd have got away with it, but I couldn't get away with it in a thousand seatater It wasn't the right ending for a show. It didn't it wasn't positive. It wasn't Love you so much to Ila byye It was we are locusts destroying the thing that we need to survive. and even Jesus can't save us. Good night. I've done some pretty mean stuff to them in the name of climate comedy. I don't think I've hit them that hard. But that's the truth of it. So that's how I feel I did and that's how I feel. And I thought I sa I thought it was such a clever analogy it just didn't feel right and it wasn't right is the sad truth. So I love that we get jobs where we get to grapple with that and but I do think The bit of being a comedian I'm comfortable with is also knowing when I haven't made it funny enough and I didn't get away with it this time But bet if anyone else chooses to do the less funny Let's say worthier. I also don't I don't I think that's great. thank God for you, well done for doing it. I doft my hat at you But I can't stand the feeling in my body really appreciate your answer. Before you leave us then, Sarah Pasco Are you happy I'm very happy. Yes. I finished my tour My children only wake up once a night at the moment, so I'm really happy. yeah, good. Thank you. All upwards from here So that was Sarah. I'm so so grateful for her for making the time and indeed then making the time all over again and all the administrative fuff in between. So thank you to Sarah. You can see Sarah Pasco for one night only at this year's Edinburgh fringe at the underbelly on the fifth of August, Sarah Pasco. co. uk for all of your doings and you can keep up with her on Instagram at sarah dot com d Pasco fifteen minutes of extras on this one If you I mean, this is fifty minutes of perfect sound quality extras from this recording, including some really good stuff about corporates. I think I think this conversation happened the day before Sarah had a worrying corporate or a nerve racking, let's say a nerve wracking corporate engagement and I think I said some useful stuff to her. It's a really good conversation and we will get into the nitty and gritty On that in the extras also we'll talk about the different standards held between public and private shows and the survival tactics used by pro comedians on the circuit. So lots of real inside the wizards Wheelhouse stuff inside The magiciian's baseball en diagram. There's a lot of that stuff findind out for any three pound a month at patreon. com slash com compomod plus an entire later this month. hour in forty five, I think, hour a half at least. of the original recording, which is crackily but listenable if you're a hardcore. Thank you to Sarah. Thank you so much to Susie Lewis for the logging. Eil prodroducer Callum is your evil producer. I've been Stuart Goldsmith. The music was by Rob Smouton And thank you for listening What else is going on is that o o I tell you Oh, I'm also going to do a quick shout out as well. Lee Kyle, you'll remember lovely Lee Kyle. He's very, very funny, and he's written a book on doing Edinburgh S shows. It's available from I'mleeekyle. com. I Lee Kyle or one word. I'm Lee Kyle. com. You can find out how to see me live at Stuartgoldsmith. com slash comedy and I hope that you do because I have had some previews recently and I'm in that sweet spot, you know This is the sweet spot I'm in I I'm going to postble. No, I tell you what I'll do the thanks and then'll post dmble. Thank you to the Insider prodroducers LHRS ICD. Lovely to see you in Leemington. DP K S S A J L G Mcl C S Dave McK. Oh Dave, you just got to be Dave. PS A W and JB and a big thank you our two special insider executive producers, Neil TTFN Peters and Andrew SWA LK Dennant and to the suuper secret one as well. Thank you. So that'll do, and then I'll post anble at you at the thing I was about to say if I can remember, but between now and then, oh, we've got some bangers in a can. Really good one coming up with brilliant Joe Wells. And we've also got a lovely two Parter as Nish Kumar returns returns returns. No, just returns returns thirird time That's an absolute killer. If you are out and about at the moment, go and see a caster on tour. Not that you need me to tell you, but I took the boy and we both Absolutely loved it. It's an extraordinary achievement that show and it's been a real privilege, see it coming to being from first idea to previews to extra material, what have you, and then we saw him at the Bristol hippodrome and it was just such an education gun Good. And so you should definitely go and see that. Who else have we seen? I think Eric Ruston's on tour at the minute. That show inkeeper I saw at Mac last year and it's brilliant. So I don't miss that. And then There was someone else tickling at my brain but not to worry Maintain a consistent sense of self between now and when I next speak to you if you can, if that is available to you And that's the sort of thing a younger person says, justust do a handstand if that's available to you And I will now try and remember what I was going to post downble at you at about This is it. I'm in the sweet spot at the moment now because here oh so this is illustrative just briefly because I've got to go and get the girl. and Uh Illustrative of where I am in the process. reccording this on Wednesday, the third of June, I've had two very nice previews recently learearners, but learners in a good way. Learners not in a kind of a o I learned. U but like oh this is we're getting there. so much so That yesterday I sent myself a note What I've got a widget. I' got an Android phone and I use a thing called macro Andr Pro and Android, what's it gold Good, I wantan to recommend it. What' it called Macro Droid? Macro droid It's incomprehensible, but I comprehensed it. and I've built a little widget on my phone now so that when I press an icon on the home screen, I press an app. opens the voice recording thing and then I say something for a few seconds and then it turns that into the subject line of an email to myself So as you can imagine, I'm very proud of myself, use it all the time Hundreds of email notes to myself that are completely impossible to manage. But one of them said H Remember The period in July When the show is made and I'm sortort of very nearly in that period now is we're nearly there When the show is made, the script is written. What you're doing is just pruning little bits, letting it breathe, pruning little bits, letting it breathe Suddenly, when you're in that mode It's such a creative mode and because you don't have the show towering over you in full in small parts or in parts in nothing, you don't have this, Oh Christ, what am I going to do feeling? You're just being nicely creative every single day I made a note to myself that said, Why not try starting writing the next show in July because you're up and running, you feel really great about yourself. You're going out every night previewing and having bang of gigs. byy that stage, we hope. U Or taking risks and finding that this time the audience was the teacher, more on that in a second And u And so wouldn't that be good? Wouldn't that be that should be the way around? It reminds me, it echoes, it rhymes with The thing that Phil Berger said years ago about go on holiday just before your Edinburgh run because then you're relaxed and rested. and I am doing that this year and it's going to be hot where I'm going. and I will be nearly going and get the go. I will be U doing a climate show with a rich mahogany tan and I can't Stress enough that I naturally get a rich mahogany tan just from being in Clantwit major for two days during the heatavave of the week But it will look aance and I'll need to say something about it. my point being That idea of going on holiday before the thing so that you're ready for the thing rather than aining yourself through it, completing a thingion bits and then trying to go on holiday when actually you end up being ill. has resonance for me, it feels like it fits with the idea of the show written in June Keep writing it in July, keep fiddling with it and working on it, but start the new show in July Revolutionary The last thing then before I go and to go school this is. and kill the baddies also at school. and The last thing is idea of make o, so my friend Mark shared this with me very funny newer comedian Mark Sarah. He is he I think he was describing it was an arm wrestling champ and he wanted to be the the best in the world. You'll know who I'm talking about if you know who I'm talking about And and he kept trying to take down the champ and he would lose and then go away and train all year and then come back and lose again. And the thing he said was this time, you are the teacher Maybe next time, I will be the teacher And I thought that was an extraordinary piece of resilience. a great way to think about things. I just it popped into my head because I was thinking about those tough type of gigs. You have good gigs where they're a learner, good gigs where they're a teacher, you know Sometimes at the gigs you are the teacher And sometimes the gig is the teacher. And actually You just keep doing this stuff. And then one day you use up your goes and die. So you've really got to try and enjoy those goes, right? So what a lovely way to enjoy them Fortunately, recently