Life Coaching and Personal Development

Stuart here, you can go to Stuart Goldsmith dot com slash comedy for tickets to my national tour. That's right. I'm taking my second ever climate comedy show. It's called Canary. I'm taking it the Edinburgh Festival for the last two weeks of August at the mononkey Barrel at Cabaret Voltaire and I shall see you there in the last two weeks of August and then it's a national tour for this guy. Cambridge, Glasgow, Oxford, Manchester Cardiff, Midenhead, Sheffield and Birmham culminating in my biggest ever tour show at Bristol Old Vixs, Stewart gooldsmith. com slash comedy for all your tickets. Hello, Stu Goldsmith here, Wlcome to the show. This is the Comedians Comedian podcast and today we are delving back into the archives and going all the way back to episode two hundred twenty with Sasha Zamata, former SNL cast member, phenomenally accomplished standup and recent cameo appearance. I don't know, it was a longer role than I think a cameo, but I was surprised to see and er very funny in the Masters of the Universe film, which me and my family enjoyed and I will say we enjoyed it more than I expected to. So she popped up in it and I thought, o that's great. She was on the show years ago. Let's delve back and find this one. We talk about the confidence with which she frames her act, and oh boy, does she? We delve into her first stand up special, Pizza Mind And we uncover her enthusiasm for life coaching and its effect on the finely honed application of her willpower. Live from Just for Last Montreal, in twenty seventeen, here is Sasha Zamata. So I saw your show at the catacombs. Does that show have a name Or I mean, there's a show happenving like like your special? Your first special pizza mine. That's like a finished bit. there we go. Yeah show. Where are we in the life of the material you're doing here in Montreal Yeah, what I did at my solo show here was a mix of stuff from Pizza Mind and then some new stuff. So There's no name for It was just an hour of material. Okay that I did here. So yeah, there's no until I figure out what the new hour is then I'll slap a name on it. Okay. And how was were you doing a run, haveave you got one left tonight? Have you got? No, I finished it. I did one Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. Okay. how did they go? They are so fun. Yeah. like the Monday crowd was super hyped and I didn't know what a Monday crowd would be like here, but it was great Tuesday was very fun and I felt like my last night was like A great way to end it. so I'm very happy how they went Yeah And you're someone who, I mean, I suppose watching you completely like have you never seen you before. I was really struck, I think I said to you when I spoke to you yesterday I was really struck by your incredible poise on stage. Thank' So is that something that gets said to you a lot? You have you're kind of your N not just your delivery, but your whole being on stage is so just kind of Here's the stuff. Yeah. It's incredibly easy, easy to watch. you're not demanding Europe You are demanding stuff of us intellectually but you're not kind of there's no sense of neediness at all. Yeah, yeah, I've been told that my style is more conversational, it feels like I'm just talking to friends then You know, make creating audience performer relationship. And that's what I want. I want you to feel like you know me and that we are here together and we're communicating because we are. I mean, like I am performing for you, but I also get feedback from you. I can see the audience and I can feel the energy. so it's kind of a symbiotic relationship that We're all a part of And much of it how much of your delivery is a decision and how much of it is just naturally how you started off on stage? I think now it feels natural, but it I worked very hard to be chill. the chill vibe that you see on stage is from work, from years of work because when I started, you know, like every comic, you're a little stiff and you're trying to figure out how to you know, perform in this body that is that is operating what you're saying Um But yeah, I'm not sure when, but I was trying to just you know be more loose and feel more in the moment. And I think the biggest compliment to me is when people think that I made everything up on the spot and that I didn't write anything. Like part of me is like, obviously can you appreciate it incredibly hard work. Exactly, give me credit for writing an hour, but also That's cool that people think like I have such an ease about me that's that I'm in the moment. That's what I want it to seem like Okay, so it's what you want it to seem like and it's what you have kind of crafted it and trained crafted it and trained it to be like. Yeah does that mean when you started out you were kind of nervous or Yeah.peractive or what did it look like? What were the differences between you now and you on Gig one? It wouldn't be nervous. It would just look like I was performing. You could see the work, you know? Okay. So that element has decreased where I am still working, but it just looks smoother. And why why is that particularly important to you? Given that of all of the comedians in this festival, you probably have the most kind of And again, pise, I don't know, it's not casual, whatever this quality is, I don't quite know how how to articulate it. But given that that is a real calling card of your performance, why is that? whyy was that so important to you I guess because that's what I like to see out of other performances that I watch. likeike when I watch other people perform when they are in the moment or they make discoveries on stage or in the room, you feel special. You're like, o, this show is just for me as opposed to like, Oh they're performing in front of a audience and they if you lifted this person and moveved them to a different stage, it would feel like the exact same performance. Yes. So I don't want that. I want to I want the people in the room to feel like this is just for them. And what I'm doing is a creation of how I feel right now? Yes Yes, I totally agree with that. I wonder what other things might be part of that as well. Is there is there something to do with status Ben Like I think your incredibly high status as a comic. But not not in a way that you're looking down at us at all, but you look Very powerful. Ooh, like that. Oh you must know you must know that. Huh, I don't know. Oh look on Pizza Mind. So the clips I have seen that available on YouTube and all the rest of it, you are in front of a beautiful it's a beautiful there. Yeah. the decisions were made there, right? That it's a beautiful red curtain. You are I never know how to describe clothes. It's like a g jumpsuit? You know, but you like you look incredibly elegant and elevated, kind of heightened You look like you could be about to do a cello recitle. Do you know what I mean? And those are decisions, right? So ye So talk to me about those decisions. What does that mean to you to have that to have that I understand what you're saying about the you want it to be conversational, you want it to not appear like stick. But what else is going on there Yeah. I guess that is interesting because I do want my vibe to be casual but I'm very aware this is a show. So when I make decisions of like, I'm gonna to wear a beautiful blue jumpsuit, we're gonna be in a beautiful stage and have a wonderful curtain that like makes my skin look good, these are all things where it's like, I'm thinking about this and also thinking about how people are viewing it. I don't Love the like. I just rolled out of bed and came on stage kind of attitude even though I am trying to create a casual vibe. Yes. I don't know, I guess I haven't thought about it' that much, but I I do want people to feel like, wow, I got a full show out of there But I also felt really comfortable You know? I didn't feel like I was being talked at. I felt like I was being talked to Yes, that's definitely true So your do you remember what b are you opening with? Is it the same setlist every night at the moment? No hasn't This week, yeah, I think I maybe added a couple things throughout the week and rearranged some stuff, but I definitely started the same way every night. So I've seen about thirty comedias this week, so please indulge me. Can you remind me what was your opening Well, my opening bit is a new one, like really new. talalking about this camping trip that I went on with my boyfriend. Yes, taking psychedics. Yes on. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And my acid trip and listening to the animals and whatnot. The caming trip was like two or three weeks ago. So this is Yeah. So this was truly a new bit that I was like, that's fun. And I did it a few times in New York and I was like, great, I'll just start with that. And that for me makes the set feel fresh because I'm like already excited about this new bit and then and it kind of rolls into the other stuff I already have. Okay. And the crux of that routine is that you are You are having you know a profound moment about your place in the universe. Yeah. and then you're aware that you're going to continue having this profound moment for ages while the at. I was having too long of a revelation. That's a really I've never had anyone describe that stuff on stage before. you know that you know, I'm I'm kind of It's an interesting It's an interesting topic, I suppose, because in like if someone said to me, A you' to reg grow routine about being an acid, like that does not do it justice at all. But we've all seen a bunch of like, No it was an acid and crazy stuff happen And it's sort of similar, I suppose in tone to the way that say ten years ago, women couldn't make jokes about menstruation on stageertainly in the UK. I mean, you could, but you would be pilloried by other women as well as other men and I you don't want hear that And and that has really moved on that you could kind of go, o no, we can absolutely talk about menstruating now. Yeah I wonder if there is a particular I wonder if the approach is somehow analogous that your bit about taking psychedotic drugs is nothing like. the the stereotype of kind of a I'd hope so. Yeah. We actually kind of just had a thing about women talking about their lady parts and whatnot. Like a female comedian I guess kind of made disparaging remarks about other female comics who choose to talk about their vagina all the time. Okay and quote all the time. Yeah, right. Yeah ye. and then some other comedians like Sarah Schafer created this like Fundraiser for Planed Parenthood.. That also had fifty female comedians talking about their. I feel like I don't think I've seen Sarah Shafer's act, but I think she's a blogger as well. Did she write something? She's been She's a writer. She like used to write for fallon and had her own show Nicky Glazer. and yeah, she's great. But yeah, I thought it was really funny that they did the show in the West cooast in LA and the East coast in New York and I did the New York one. And so it truly was fifty women talking about their vagina. And just like, you know, anything about it could be like sex, could be you know, periods, like however you view that childbirth. And I was really, really impressed with how many different versions of jokes there were. different styles and. Were you in that lineup Yeah I was. ye. I actually told the, I don't know if you remember, but I had a joke about this like when I thought I had a STDes and going to Pln Pned Parenthood and getting checked out and whatnot. And so I told that U But yeah, it was so cool to hear like None of these jokes are like a typical vagina joke. It's like, no, you can actually have. Because what is any typical vagina joke in invented com is that's just any joke. This is a joke reference to a vagina that probably a man listened to and thought, Ohh, of this again. Yeah. and it's like, that shouldn't be the reaction. This is a This is a part of us. This is a part of our body that exists and we shouldn't ignore it. Also, it births people like you came out of a vagina. whyy are you grossed out about hearing about it U So yeah, I'm hoping that that is changing. And then yeah, same thing with drugs. I think when you hear someone saying like, I was on this trip. And I understand that when people describe trips If you aren't on that drug as well or if you've never done it before, it might be kind of lame to hear it. So I was trying to describe it in a way that you could understand it. I think people can understand being trapped in something for longer than they want. So the idea of like Yeah, absolutely. I was high for four or five hours and I didn't want to be anymore and yeah, just describing how I wanted to like be over it. I was so done. And with that if that actual event happened only two or three weeks ago, what was the first was that the first time on Monday when you talked about it on stage? or had you done some work on that? I had worked on it. Yeah. Can you tell us what that work was I'm sorry, I interrupted you telling us what that work was That was. I have a monthly show in Brooklyn called Sars A Ma Party Time and it's a variety show and I host it And so at the top, I kind of recount what I'm going through. I just like talk to the audience mostly, but I might sprinkle some established bits in there, but it's kind of a time for me to figure out new stuff. Okay. So that show was, I think the day I got back from that camping trip. So it was already on the brain and I was just talking about it and I record every set. And so I like listened back and tried to figure out which points people were actually laughing at. And then had a few more shows after that and tried to like whittittle it down the parts that were getting the most last and that were that I thought were the most important That which aren't necessarily the same parts. becausecause I think that that's a decision what we all make as comedians is the degree to which we're led by their response and the degree to which we're led by what we want to say 'cause there's some things where it's like, no one's laughing at this, but I think it's essential to the joke for you to understand the rest of it orr people are laughing at this part, but I'm like, that's actually a lame part. I'm like I don' don't know I don't really need that part. And well done to you for the quality control to throw out a bit that works. you know Yeah. again, we all have some kind of like just doing that bit I probably shouldn't. I know, yeah. I like and I've had people be like, oh what about this joke that you used to do? that used to hit hard and I'm like Yeah, but I don't feel like it represents me anymore. O like can you give us an example of a bit like that? Yeah. I used to talk about sex a lot on stage And just because I thought it was funny And u And then after a while, I was like,, this doesn't feel like it really represents me, I mean, I do have sex, but I also was trying to be wary of like, how people in the audience perceive me. Like I didn't want them to think like, wow, she fucks all the time. Or even if they did think that, who cares. But I didn't want people to leave the show thinking that's all I had to say And then when to say like I actually gave myself a challenge and I was like, I'm going to try to write jokes that have nothing to do with sex. And then I opened up a whole new world of other things that I wanted to say But yeah, there was like a joke about U how many white guys I've slept with and it was like I started telling it like a Def Jam comic. And it would be like, I've been with so many white boys that o what was it? Oh, okay. And then I think I made it was a call in response. This is a old joke. so it's truly trying it's coming back to me, but it's like this is a safe space for you to admit your're old joke. Thank you Yeah, I've been with so many white boys, you can open up a cupcake shop down there orr like a pan I just like listed a bunch of white things, Panera, bread a Haalen Hardy. and then I've been with so many white boys that Oh no, so many white boys been beaten up this pussy that you could call it Rodney King. And then people would be like, U, and I'm like, we need to talk about this and force people to like be okay with it. It was that hard to let go of that bit once you. It was a really good bit. People loved it. and it's very performative. L I was you know, it was a new energy on stage, but then I wrote other stuff that I loved. So I was like, whatever dont Yeah. I guess it's hard as in like That was good. But then if I tried to do it now, it would feel so Fake like I tried to do old bits where I'm like, it was good. let me see, but then it's like, I'm writing things that are personal to me in that moment. So the like and I'm evolving. I'm changing as a person. So like this joke that I wrote in two thousand thirteen doesn't apply to me now Yeah. because I've changed and I don't think the same things So Yeah, there's a lot of jokes that have gone away because I don't believe in them anymore. Are there any parts of your well, let's let me ask you this, of your current material, either new or old, but the stuff that you've been doing here in Montreal What is your what is the routine that you think is most representative, the comic that you are or they coming where you want to be Um probably My closer which was the resting rape face bit. Yeah where I talk about how I hate the term reststing bitch face And u and describe why my face is resting because it's just fucking tired of being told to smile, of waiting for my turn to speak when I'm in a room full of men and for apologizing for things that I'm not actually sorry for. And that's the thing that women have to deal with all the time just in general. So it's like no, there's no question why my face is tired. and then I counter it to this guy I'm talking to in the joke and saying, like, oh, it's a funny that you say that I have a wresting bitch face this whole time, you've had a wresting rape face. And There's actually a clip of this online right now and the comments section is wild. Yeah. J o. There's a bunch of dudes being like, Oh men have restling bitch faces too. And know there's just a bunch of just social justice warrior bullshit and like it's so funny where it's like all I'm doing is saying why I I think that I have a regular face. This makes people mad. makes men mad And probably some women too who don't realize that they don't have to be mad about this stuff. But I think that's probably in the direction where I'm going where it's like I don't know, just giving less fucks and talking about how proud I am to be who I am. And I am a black person. I'm a woman. I'm a black woman. I live in America And Yeah, I'm just proud of the stuff I got and I'm tired of people telling me not to be. So The more things I write, the more things that come up that are like protecting that, I guess When you say you're tired of people telling you not to be, do you mean you're tired of people telling you not to be that kind of comic or not to talk about those kind of things on stage?fy No one who matters is telling me that. You know, I've never had a boss or anyone who wrote wrote my checks out or like a manager representation tell me like, maybe you should try this kind of style because Um, that would suck But you know, there's tons of trolls or people in the audience that are like, you should be louder or like run around or like, you know, like if there's a heckler, you should attack them or what you know, people have like different understanding of what comedy should be. and especially if you're a woman, I've had people come up to me after shows and give me advice and I'm like, why do you Joe Smo, like you have never been on stage before. Why do you think that you have an idea of what I should be doing on stage. I'm the one getting paid for the show. You paid for the show. But I think some people Mostly men can't comprehend A woman doing something they can't do or doing it better than them. Yes. So something not only that they can't do, but that they're scared of that they love to do, but they're scared of. Yeah. So it's like an attempt to kind of re appropriate or kind to take some sort of ownership. Yeah. because I you know, occasionally men will almost know women, but occasionally men will say that to me, but it's very occasional. Yeah. And you do, I clearly get a sense that like Yeah, you want to be doing this Okay. Mh. I am cause far less the subject of I mean, there one there's one particular video that is connected with this podcast, which had quarter of a million views and it was to do with I never know one this is interesting. I don't know whether I want to talk about it on this episode because it's just going to fucking fire up the whole thing again. Loads of MRAs jumped on this thing. Oh wow. And but it's the only time I've had to up with it. Yeah. So I'm talking about privilege having an argument with Bill Burr about whether or not privilege is a thing. Oh wow. And nine minutes of it was clipped and put on this MRA website the titled Bill Burr Destroys Male Feminist And two hundred fifty thousand people stopped by to call me a cut fag And then started to discover my other videos which none of which you know with stand up videos, I'm not a political stand upp. I don't have much any feminist material. Ill occasionally refer to, you know, I'll try and frame things in such a way that I'm not being lazy. I'm trying to be as kind of hd as possible And I will get, oh suddenly since that happened now I'm getting a lot of hate. like here's a routine about you know, a sword and someone' like, a whining cup fag. you're like, well, you' clearly listen to reference something el. Now for me, that's the irony in that is that They're arguing that privilege isn't a thing And the fact that they're attacking me once only for this 's like, No, thats yeah because I am the beneficiary of privilege. you don't give a shit the rest of the time because I'm a white man. Yeah. Jimmy which kind of undermines their theory. But anyway Do you how are your how are you' kind of emotional defenses against that sort of thing, given that you're in the territory Oive. being I don't know if outspoken is the right word, just kind of firm, confident and talking about you know, your race and your gender T what extent do you cope emotionally with being attacked? I'm glad you said not outspoken because sometimes people are like, wow, you're so like brave for like speaking out for women or for black people or whatever. And I'm like, I'm literally just talking about my personal experiences. I'm not like trying to lead a revolution, but I mean I will. But I and I'm glad people are learning things and hearing a new perspective on things. But yeah, it's like this is all familiar territory to me. It's not me like you know, truly learning things and teaching them to people. It's like, this is normal stuff I guess it doesn't get spoken enough. That's why it's Brave. But For trolls, Again, they don't pay me, so I don't give a sh. That is a refreshingly directive for. Truly. I mean, like unless it was like all my audience who were paying for my shows, if they're upset, then I would reevaluate what I'm doing and being like, oh, I guess I my fan basees I've disconnected in some way. But if it's like these trolls who just like see two minutes of me on YouTube are like here or me on an interview or something and they don't know anything that I talking about or just know me personally or anything, but I don't really care Have you ever cared? Is Is that a skin you've had to grow or is that just like this n? Yeah. I think so. I think I don't remember it ever really affecting me. It's just kind of like, oh, people will always hate. even if I have The best joke ever. someone's going to be like I can pick apart why that's wrong. I can find something and findind a reason why it offends this group or like why it offends me or you know, she looks like a whore in this video. like it doesn't matter. They'll find something wrong with it just because I exist and I'm speaking. and I can't get bogged down with that because that's not helping me that's not that's not giving me any like added like experience or education or it's just it's it's unnecessary. Also it's like I personally have never disliked something. and then felt like I needed to type type it out. I just like, oh, I just like it. And then I've also never felt like if I loved something that I would type it out either. So this is a different mindset that I don't understand. These are people that we're not on the same wavelength. So if you're the type of person who's like I dislike this and then your reaction is to spend time out of your day to Tell somebody about it, then that's on you. it's almost The covert nature of it is fascinating because like I don't spend any time particularly I certainly don't slag anything off online. I spend very little time bingging things up unless I'm like particularly blown away by something. And I think that's probably true of a lot of my friends, but you don't know who's doing it because it's all anonymised. And I would love to be able or maybe would maybe this would be a terrible idea. But if you were able somehow to if there was a visual representation, if some people walking around were just like bright purple and you go, o, that's because they you know, then we could at least gauge how many people it is. Yeah Because it's one of the frightening things about online abuse is you've no idea. what proportion of the public does this represent? Y true And people also don't think about their actions when they're online. Like if you are a person who is inclined to say negative things all the time. likeike I've had some people tweet things at me And you know, depending on my mood, I might like it. They might just like favorite it, like That's beifressive impressive. He's like, I won't respond. I was like, I saw it. And then a few people have been like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't really mean it. You're actually really funny or like they'll backtrack because they they thought I would never see this.. They think I'm a brand or a company or like that maybe someone else is handling my social media or something. They don't know that I'm scrolling through it every night. And everyvery night's quite tellering. I they get bored. But yeah, but I'm not like looking for shit, but if some things pop up, I'm like, o, okay. yeah, depending on if I want to do do something, I might like it. but But yeah, there was like some guy who's tweing at me a lot And just like stupid stuff. likeike it wasn't specific to like, you're not funny, this joke was bad. It was just like like race stuff or just like whatever the base like like insult could be. And I looked at his account and it was created like a day or two ago. and with a fake picture. and I was like, oh, you are a troll. You are definitely just trying to make people upset. And then I looked at his tweets and he was just tweeting all sorts of celebrities saying the same stuff. And I was like Well then I don't care. If that's what you get, like if that's the enjoyment you get out of life, then go for it. But to me, it's like, o, then you clearly don't care about me because You're tweeting everybody How long have you been performing U since I was like nine. I've been in gospel choir and my church And then show choir in high school and musicals From whereab are we talking? I don't know where you're from. I'm from Indiana. Okay. Indianapolis, Indiana And um Yeah, yeah, I was in my church choir and then I auditioned for an improv team in my high school. And I made it, but then the rehearsals interfere with my show choir rehearsals. so I quit But then I I did improv in college and really loved it And and then the touring company for UCB, the a Priceices and Briget Theater came to my college. I saw them and I was like I gott to go wherever they're from. and They moved to New York, but I majored in drama. so I thought I was going to be in Broadway and like I was auditioning for all these plays. You want to be Or was it like that was the only version of being a performer that you thought was available? I guess that's the option I thought was available ' I looking back I mean, I love theater and I appreciate the art form But u I didn't love that grind. That wasn't for me Like getting up really early and waiting hours and hours to be seen. and they treat you differently when you have a SAG card and when you don't. So I didn't have a SAg card yet.. yourour union card. because you have to like audition a certain amount of times and be a certain amount of plays. and there's like so many rules. And I was like, I just want to get onstage right now. And I would go to UCB and watch shows And the and you could, I mean, you couldn't get on immediately, but you could like take classes and then have a practice group and then your group could start a show at a bar somewhere and then you could just like perform whenever and you have to rehearse. I mean, we had practices, but you know, I liked the aspect of how everything was new Yes. You could just create it and then that was the only time that show happened And then the next time you come it iss a totally different show And how old were you when you were at college and you first encountered UCV I guess u twenty one It's interesting that they kind of rolled into town. It's a bit like running away with a circus? Oh, yeah. like I mom you said I want to go wherever they're going. I guess that's why I happen. yeah, they took me. So you then went on to work with UCB Yeah, I took imp Prod classes And and then sketch classes And then shortly after that started doing open mics for stand up And it just like kept doing all of it at the same time. And were you one of there like I don't know too much about UCB, but I would guess in any group of people who are all hungry to do a thing, arere there there's particular characters, there's particular stars, the people who tend to do the best. Were you one of them or were you U a while, yeah, Yeah, Nicely, but At first, you know, I was like a student like everybody else, but then I failed my four hundred one class. they have improv one one, two, one, three, one, four hundred one. You're supposed to pass your four hundred one. and then if you pass there's like advanced study And then and also you need to pass your four one in order to audition for a house team. Okay. And why did you f I feel for a one and I The notes were like, I mean, At the time, I was like, I did not deserve to fail And I can't remember what my notes were, but I felt like the teacher maybe was checked out, but it truly doesn't matter. But now I'm thankful that I failed because that made me pause in my curriculum. I just stopped taking classes for like a few months Like half a year really and then formed my own improv group because I was like, I'm just gonna perform. I don't need to take these classes to do that. I'm going find my own group perform the way I want because the notes I would get sometimes would be like, You need to be bigger or louder or more crazy. have crazier characters, but I like being a straight man. Like I like being or a straight person. and I like wrangling the crazy rather than creating the crazy. and And then I had a three person group called Dppelganger, which was me, Nicole Byer and Kisha aler Three ladies, three black ladies, which was like unheard of at the time And We kind of took over. We like did we were kill in it. We were doing our own little indie shows and then there was a competition where the teams two teams would compete and the audience would vote who would keep going to the next week and we won a lot And we were beating some of our teachers. And yeah, it was a really You can have an honorary four hundred one pass, is that. I actually beat my teacher who was teaching my second four hundred one while I was in class. But yeah, that was I mean, I guess that's kind of how most things in my life go where I get rejection in something and then I go create my own thing and then it Turns out to be better for me anyway? Yes. Why was Dopelganger so successful I think our chemistry was amazing. like We all play very differently. like Nicole's very in the moment and she's kind of like a bull in a China shop. She'll just like drop any kind of move and then everyone else has to deal with it. like I think in the future, like, okay, how can we use what's going on later. and then Keisha thinks in the past where she's like, what did we do five moves ago and how can we bring it back? So it's really a nice like puzle that we've created where everyone's working on a different thing. And it's like, I'm so thankful Keach iss there because it's like, o, thank gosh, you rememember that thing that we did ten minutes ago. becauseuse I would have forgot And you know, than God, Nicole created this crazy move so that we could like propel the scene and then I'm trying to wrap it up in a bow. and Yeah, it's just always so fun. And was there what was the kind of the creative dynamic between you? Was there Was there a sort of a friendly competition or was it all that you were working At that time, definitely working together. And then we got so much attention and the AD at the time, Anthony King told us and all about us and because he was like There are these three funny ladies here and you should look at them. And so a producer came Watch our show told us to submit And then that was like you know great for all of us, but does create some tension because we're all now competing. for this role for one role. Yeah. ye. And And as I understand it One ethnically diverse woman since forever. Like was there was like, o this is the one place. Yeah, yeah yeah. there was no a that's problematic in its own way and also there's no question that they're going to go, Oh we'll take two of you or all three of you Yeah. I mean, they could have. I wish they did, but They didn't. So like we all auditioned for years. this was maybe like two thousand eleven, I can't really remember, but u Yeah we like submitted tapes and writing packets and then there would be showcases where you do your five minutes in front of an audience and in front of the producers and learn. and then they it like that, then they bring you into test And so Nicole tested a year before I did and they liked her a lot. And then she didn't get it. And then the next year is when they have that push for diversity. and me and Nicole We werere both doing showcases, and she already lived in LA at this time. And so she did the LA showcase. I did the New York showhcase. And then I was the only one who got called, I mean, you know, of my friends got called in for a test and then I got ced But that, you know, I would be lying if I was said that that was an easy thing for us for our friendship because everyone wants that job If you do comment. I mean, not everyone, but most people do want a chance to do that job and we're great now, but it took a lot of personal growth for both of us and a lot of adult conversations for us to be okay with still working together but understanding we're just Now we're doing different things and that's okay. Did you have to let her know that you've got it I did. she was the third person I called. I call my mom, my dad and then her and, um, Yeah It took her a while to be really happy for me. But And through that time, how did you feel so shitt. I felt like I couldn't talk to her. I felt like I couldn't tellell her thingsings that were happening in the office or like cool things that happened or bad things that happened because it felt like I was bragging because, you know She wanted this Yeah. So And was there one particular you said there was a lot of kind of adult conversations Was there was there a particular way of phrasing it or a way of you framing it between you that you kind of That's it dealt with now I don't know. I don't think there was a moment where it was like, oh got that taken care of. L it like I said, it was a lot of conversations, a lot of drunk in the rain conversations or late night phone calls where, you know, we're talking about how we really feel. And this is also not even the first time we encountered this because like When we were younger in the industry, there was there's a show called Girl Code that Nicole Audition for got it, but I didn't even get a chance to audition for it. And so when she told me, my first response was Oh, well why didn't I audition for that? Instead of congratulations. So it's like we both do it to each other and this will continue to happen probably for the rest of our careers because we are two funny Black women and until we get to a point where we all get so many chances, then there's not just like a certain number for us then we will compete with each other I did an interview recently with a British comic and improviser called Pepper Evans, where she told a similar story about the nature of dealing with professional jealousy between female friends. it struck me then as it strikes me more deeply now that I've never heard a man tell a version of that story. I've never heard a guy go. So me and my friend, we were at risk of falling out So we really talked about it and had some speual conversations. I mean the idea is sort of visible. I know. I know. because it's like, yeah, you'll probably just find another opportunity. Yeah, ye, yeah. But yeah, for women I think also, especially women of color, we're like very aware that there's probably only so many chances for us. So it's like, Well, if you got that, they're not looking for another one whichich is so silly, but I do think it's changing and it's getting better. I think shows and producers and studios are saying that people want to see more voices and more Just options and u So hopefully you'll get better. but Yeah rightight now Feel your best and amplify your everyday luck with Thrive Cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics d. com slash shine twenty six for an exclusive offer of twenty percent off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics C A U S E MET ICS d. com slash shine twenty six. I was saying before, having not really been an expert on SNL and only getting into it recently, probably in the UK. a lot of people that you know, a lot of comedy super fans in the UK, a lot of comedians have been into SNL. It's not something that had been on my radar U and I sort of It's not something that' been on my radar as much as I feel it should. I feel like, oh God, where do I start? You know, this's so much. so much Yeah. But one of the things obviously I did is really hit off is all the Trump, you know, ball window doing Trump And via that, I then in only in researching you yesterday, did I go, Oh, you were keenly on Black Jeopardy? Oh yes. Yeah. that I saw, you know, because I got into trouble and I just ended up watching loads and loads of loads of black Jeopardy. Yeah, that's a great sketch, right? So did In my kind of very naive understanding of how the show works, were you writing on Black Jeopardy? No. Brian Tucker and Michael Tray wrote those black Jeopardy sketches. And then the performers can pitch lines if they want. So there's probably a couple jokes that I pitch, but I didn't I didn't really help write the sketch. Okay Okay, and how does that? feel what are as a writer performer yourself How do you cope with hope sort of suggest I don't be to suggested anything negative about it. But obviously if you are pitching an idea for a joke and they go, No, you're fine. just say our words Yeah Is it frustrating or is it just are you kind of going, I'm so pleased to be here? It can be frustrating, but you know, after I was there for years. so Part of me was like used to it. It was like, oh, whatever. like All your good ideas go in the trash at the end of the week. evenven if it went on air, it's like now we're done and then we have to reset and then start over again. So there's It really taught me how to kill your darlings and not be too attached to an idea because It could be we could have a good idea up until The show starts up until the sketch and then for some reason, we're running out of time and then we have to cut lines and then it's like Whatever For the good of the show, we have to par things down and then change things and you know, maybe like legal says that we can't say this thing now or whatever, or this advertiser for some reason doesn't like this topic There's so many things that go into that show that I don't even know about that dictate how we execute what we do. So yeah, by the end, I was like, whatever. Yeah. That's interesting that idea of the good for the good of the show. presresumably the good of the show doesn't like someone's idea, like the steering hand of the show. theirir idea of the good of the show doesn't necessarily y with your idea of what's best for the show. Yeah, that can happen And that's there's nothing I'm not the boss, so there's nothing I can really do about that. Yeah yeah. goo make your own show. Exactly. Yeah. Also notot everyone came knowing each other. like this is kind of a smattering of people who have different writing styles, have different performing styles, and we're just told to like make it work. And that works all the time, but also it's like You know, it'd be easier if it's like you and your buddies. Yeah getting together. Yeah. I suppose one of the most valuable qualities as an SNL staffer, is that the right word? teeam member Yeah, house meber. Yeah, cast member and then writers One of the most valuable qualities must be the flexibility to be able to work with other people's sense of humour and other people's working style. Yeah I mean, yeah, I feel like I came away with a better understanding of how to communicate my ideas to people who may not understand them right off the bat. and then also collaborating with different peopleeople who have different styles and humor and Yeah I learned a shit ton and it was so valuable. That's stuff you can't pay for because you're just getting thrown in there and they're like, make something. and you have to because we only have five more days until the show finished. Can you give us an example of like one of the lessons that you took away from that Mmm. Nothing specifically I want to say. Oh yeah, okay, that's fine. Or maybe a preconception you had going in that was disproved. I guess I I don't know if this was a preconception, but I was surprised to see like How? Like what writing night is, we write everything in one night on Tuesday and You kind of just find your tribe. You kind of just find people who you dive with And and then write together. But it's not like an open room where we're pitching ideas to together and like saying like, okay, you write that, you write that. There's no real like communication throughout the whole floor. It's just like o kindind of a lot of closed doors and people being like, okay, well I'm writing this with this person and then I'm writing this with this person. and then you have to like find those people. So and I started mid season, so I had no idea might my people were. It t lot less like the kind of big table in Thty Rock. Yeah, yeah yeah Yeah, it's very much individual offices. And then when you get to the I remember I spoke to Hannibal Bereress on the show and he was talking about putting the script up on an OHP and beating the jokes Yeah. Yeah, you have to like, um That happens throughout to like throughout the whole week, people will like give punch upps and then there's like you're rewriting the sketches and then punching up the joke because it might be funny during a rerow, but we can make it funnier What lessons stick in your mind as things that you manage to take with you into your standup? Likeume I mean, would you have time to be doing standup whilst you were doing that or did? Yeah, I did do standup while I was doing it, which was I I was so happy to do that. because like if I had a bad week I could go on stage and just like agency. Yeah like I know what I'm doing. Yeah. Or even I've had a good week, but it was just nice to be able to go on stage and just say whatever I want and have an immediate reaction from the audience instead of creating something, maybe no one read it, or maybe we did read it, we didn't pick it. and then I'm just like, you know kind of waiting around for the rest of the week But I'm trying to think of a lesson I don't know. I guess I just learned like how to stand up for what I wanted or like like the things that were important to me And I didn't always win, but I at least left feeling super confident and knowing what I want where I think when I showed up, I was just happy to be there. And I was like I'm ready to go. I'll do whatever, whatever you say, and I was trying to like fit into the mold of the show. And then by the time I left I was like, No, I know my mold. I know what I like and what I want. And I don't think that I have to try to plug myself into this thing Um If that doesn' if that doesn't feel right. So did you how does it work when you're leaving the show? Do you did you decide to leave the focus on your standup I decideed to leave, ye, and to focus on whatever I want But yeah, stand up acting writing Sorry, my pro is always stand up and I think say you just totally. ye. a lot of other stres to your b. But So was that a hard decision to make or were you ready to go? I was ready to go. But that doesn't mean that wasn't a hard decision. It's like breaking up with somebody You know, like you might feel like This needs to end, but that doesn't mean the love's gone still love that show. I'll still watch that show that I you know, thought about for a long time and had many, many conversations with the people who work there about it and decided it was time to go And then How soon was it like when you walked out the door, like the last time you left What was was like the very next thing that you did creatively? Was that your own standu or was it was it like to take a break from it all? or I think maybe I Iid't get on stage for a week or something. And then getting on stage after that was weird because I was like, do I talk about it? do I like? Yeah. Does everyone know? It's so hard to know what people know about the show or they don't know because it feels like sometimes everyone's talking about what's going on with SNL. And then sometimes I talk to people and they're like, Ohh, I don't really watch it or Absolutely. I don't know. I don't pay attention much which is great. L like talking to family members almost you go,, you know, name of huge comic said this or done. and they're like, I've never heard of them yet. Oh yeah, it's still only really massively important in my head. Yeah, totally, which is nice. Yes Yes So you how long were we talking? When about did you leave the finale I think was may twentieth. that was the last They're just gone. Yeah. This is a huge hle in rearch. I'm sorry. I didn't realize. it was just H you read about it, I wasn't following the dates. And when was Pizza mind released march thirtieth So within that was released before. I understand. Okay. Yeah. And there ass a boring technical question, tell me about the decision to put the special on CSO because that's not something that I had heard of before, that platform. Is that a well known platform? where you like a kind of spearhead for their Kind of yeah it's new. So it's owned by NBC Universal. so it's kind of in the NBC family And u They were just really excited about me and what I had going on And they were also like let me be in control of a lot of stuff. They let me, you know creatively have a lot of input in what was going on. So I felt like that was really important for me. and I don't know if that would have happened somewhere else. because that was my first special. so Be somewhere else, they may be like, oh, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this or That's cute, but we don't want to do that. And you know, CO was very hands off and they're like, we support you. We want you do well. We want to be good and in your voice. And that seems like a good fit for the sort of performing you got. Yeah Yeah, definitely So what's next What's next? More stand up And TV and movie set. I book two movies. I'm going to shoot them in August, September. which s us where the movieies out. One is an indie drama called Ghetto Plainesman and it's about a gay man in the eighties, nineties who's trying to like find himself and I' best friend who's an actress in New York. He so, real stretch for me And I'm in an Amy Schumer comedy. and yeah, and I'm still in talks of other projects too. So Okay Yeah. And are you feeling I mean, It's like are you feeling kind of well at your feet at the moment U a little bit yeah People are really excited for me and excited that I'm available and that I can do more of my own work and I'm excited to give it to them So what to wrap up then, what are some of the Like I feel like you're incredibly Confident, intelligent, skilled. Do know what I mean? You're just like, yeep, I've got this Are there any chinks in your armor Oh yeah, definitely You know, I can't think it off the top of my head because I'm so confident and strong and int. But like you I'm interested in I suppose if I were listening to this interview like you know, sort of separate to it, I would I kind of go I think I think I'm really pleased for you. this is al really well. How do I get to be more like this? or what kind of sort of Either How can I be more like this or What sort like let me know that you struggle as well. Oh, sure Fine, I'll let you know that struggle. If I must. I guess I just got okay with rejection. got lot of knows before I started getting yeses. I'm still getting thoses. And I probably will continue to get nose as I keep going in my career. So just Realizing that the nose don't mean that I'm bad. It just means that wasn't a good fit And I just got to keep going and finding where I fit in and where I feel most comfortable and where my voice can flourish the most. And then it will and then it will be green And I guess I'm now I'm so confident in what I have to say and what I want that that when someone doesn't want what I got? I'm like, that's their loss. whereere before it would have been like, Ohh, they don't want me. Okay, that means I need to change or like that means that I should probably be better at X, Y and Z. And if I don't care about X Y and Z, why am I trying to get better at that? So I need to just focus on like what actually makes me happy. and makes me feel fulfilled artistically. And if someone gets it, then I'll keep them, you know, I'll keep that working relationship. If they don't, then it doesn't matter to me. You don't need to be here And is that is that approach learearned And if it is learned, is it purely learnt from choices you've made in your career and how people are treated you, or are you like, that seems like such good software, like mental software. Is it are you like have you read self help books about it? You' been on a personal development course? You have. Oh, definitely. Okay. Yeah. And tellell us a bit about that. Yeah. I mean, I'm so into like personal development and learning about yourself and self care and stuff The Artist Way helpelped me a lot by Julia Cameron. It's like a twelve week workbook where you take yourself on artist dates, you journal, you just try to figure out your your goals and then you have a better way to approach it afterwards And I also have a life coach He, I took her She has a class that was kind of like time management for artists that I took like In two thousand, I don't know twelve or something And I remember at the end of the class I was crying because I didn't want it to end because I thought it was so helpful. because we really We thought about our goals for the next year. So if it was like U you know, july twenty ninth of twenty eighteen, I want to have written and produced a movie. I want to have toured to these different countries I've never been to. I want to have these commercial or whatever the things are. and then you work backwards and you go, Okaykay, so if I have to do that, nine months from now, these things need to happen. and then six months from now, these things need to happen. you just work backwards even to the week. It seems so simple, but it's like You won't do it. You need someone to tell you to do it. So having that structure and having someone check me on it every week was really helpful for me. And then we stopped and I was like, well, fuck, I'm never going to do this again. But then I did and I had SNL and my goal list And But there's also like things you can't control. So it's like the thing I could control was like, I would like to have done well at the showcase for Audit for SNL, and hopefully they call me in kind of thing And yeah, I looked at my notebook like a year later and I was like, Ohh, I did do all the goals. but it did stick. And now that teacher is my life coach. And we have a one on one Skype session every month to kind of reassess what's going on in my life and like Now what goals do I have? And how do I approach it this way? And And it' and it's really like I like it a lot. I think it's really helpful. She doesn't like shame me if I don't like Oh, you didn't finish this outline, so that's bad. It's like, okay, you didn't. whyy didn't you? Maybe you don't think it's important right now. Maybe we should put that on the back burner and think of something else. And like Yeah, it's just thinking about Just analyzing how you're already thinking and just following those paths. It's like, okay, maybe I'm actually leaning more to this I don't know, podcast idea or like this this variety show idea, maybe because I keep going that direction. so maybe I should follow that and see where it goes That's such a great answer. I really unlike me and everyone listening to this is like, well who is this lady? get touch? H name is Betsy Capes you can you're you're a walking advert for it for that that sort of system that's really that's really u It's inspiring to hear someone kind of taking the reins in that manner because I think it's easy certainly in the UK to kind of the idea of self help you know, either self help books or whatate have you is u You know, it's probably we probably feel similar about it that we do to therapy, which is that people who are into it are like, this is really great. But there's not kind of any shining examples Yeah of oh, this is great and this is how it should work. Yeah I recommend therapy too. That really, even though I mean, I don't know if you remember the joke about how my therapist was crazy, but yeah. ye. She was a lunatic, but I did still feel like I got a lot out of therapy and I mean, as a creator All I'm doing is talking about myself. and how I relate to things in the world. and the more I know about myself, the better. So I would also recommend that people Learn about yourself. What do you like? What do you not like? What do you What are you striving for? What made you who you are today? What are the things in the past that you're trying to run away from? What are the skeletons in your closet you don't want to address anymore? Let's address them. Let's you know, put that out there because maybe someone else can relate to that Um There's like