Mental Health and Future Creative Directions

Stuart here, you can go to Stuart Goldsmith dot com slash comedy for tickets to my national tour. That's right. I'm taking my second ever climate comedy show. It's called Canary. I'm taking it the Edinburgh Festival for the last two weeks of August at the mononkey Barrel at Cabaret Voltaire. and I shall see you there in the last two weeks of August and then it's a national tour for this guy. Cambridge, Glasgow, Oxford, Manchester Cardiff Maiden Head, Sheffield andirmham culminating in my biggest ever tour show at Bristol Old Vixs, Stewart gooldsmith. com slash comedy for all your tickets. Welcome back to the show. This is another one from wayay backack when in the Archives with Suusie Ruffle. From twenty nineteen. Brilliant, Sy. We talk about, o amongst other things, we talk about making sure that LGBTQ plus people in the audience feel seen We'll talk at length about how punishing she found being a new act and find out whether she feels she could do it all again And we found out why at the time she found happiness Terrifying Susie was already brilliant way back then has gone on to fantastic things. She's currently on tour with the juggle. You can find out more about that at susieruffle. com here from twenty nineteen It's Suzy Ruffle ere you an actor for any length of time? I did a bit of acting, but I was always sort of the funny part and Casting me was always quite difficult because I was never It's never like naturally the romantic lead. therefore you play like the funny roles and that's often to girls that are a bit older So I was sort of this younger actress that didn't really couldn't really find a space. And that's when I started writing bits myself Aen stand up Money And then flash forward eleven years later. here we are. Yeah A Yeah And a very nice flag yourento. It's absolutely gorgeous and it feels very I feel This is the first place I've been able to record at home in my edit reccordodation because it's nice enough. V. To paint the picture for the reader, we'reitting on piles of money screwed from a Duck style. It's pretty good. So we'll bounce around the timeline, but let's talk about your show the other night, which I had tears in my eyes watching it and joy, it was like a joyous thing, right? Yeah. It me like bounced on stage like Janelle Manet just take that just gave us a show with physicality and wit and erve and big, big punchy bits. and by the time you get on to that routine, which you know the spotlight routine, which we' talk about later on I just felt like I'm watching someone's breakthrough show. That's a nice thing of you to say. I really love doing the show. I really enjoy performing it. I think it's my best Um, It's u It's a show that I've written quicker than any other. So my chore have done I did a tour couple of years ago that was like Um And I like ten dightes. And then last year I did about twenty five. I say last year. It finished in May.. Yeah Yeah the festival started on the thirty first of July. So it was the twenty fourth of March actually that's not I did one show of it One last time on the fourteenth of July, my old show So I've been writing a show whilst touring another show which has been A rare challenge, but quite It's helped me manage material really, really quickly because I think when you're on stage all the time, you're more creative. So because I was doing an hour twice a week at my tour shows to an audience that are really excited to see me I was way more confident trying new bits in the first half of the show or when I was opening for somebody else that week because I was so used to being on stage in front of a good crowd U But yeah, Ive really I'm really proud of the show and I really I'm really enjoying it every night and I really hope that that continues. I'm sort of waiting for that tough show. It hasn't happened yet. No at some point it will Last night had a weird thing happened though. my venue started leaking onto the saage, which created a Junice Sa? A real clocking pain in the ar. Yeah which is a bit annoying, but I've taken that in my stride because as people listening to this will may or may not know, the Edinburgh Festival venues are often cobbled together out. A lot of them are like old schools or university buildings. and some of them are kind of hand built and fished. I' like a big porter cabin that I'm paying a lot of money for that now has a lake. So I'm winning in many respects. Fm But yeah, it's Yeah, who knows? I think that it's u A show that I'm enjoying doing. P peopleeople are coming, peopleople seem to be having a nice time What more can you want? Other than everything. O than everything. Well this is I was just going to say you're speaking now and I realize it' early in the morning, you're speaking in a very sort of humble and nice kind of way. Yeah I mean, because what I really want is like a Netflix special and a series and. That's what we're going talk about because you're the Susie on stage, which I know is How what is the difference? What's the distance between Not that Yeah, it's not that much. There's a great Fank Skinner book, which I'm sure we've both read where he talks about when he comes on stage, you turn down certain parts of yourself. S And you go on, you turn up certain parts of yourself, turn down other parts of yourself The I think the reason the show is doing well, and I am enjoying it is because it's the closest I've ever been to myself on stage So this is my sixth solo hour My first two I was doing an impression of what I thought a comedian was. So I spent a lot of time some of the sort of during that period Even still now, I spend a lot of time with very talented male comics like Josh Witicomb, Romes S most U and a number of others as well And I think my first two shows was me doing an impression of what I thought stand up was So I had a bit that was a bit like Josh that was a bit observational, which isn't really what I do, had a bit Biger act epits like Sean which is actually what I do and what I do enjoy doing. had you know, and so I had all these I was trying very hard to work out what kind of comic I was being on stage And I did that sort of quite visibly twice at the Edinburgh Festival Which that's very deftly put. I very visibly tried to work out what I was. Yeah. it was spotlight. I had yeah, I had two shows that were complepletely fine. wouldouldn't have upset anyone wouldould have made you laugh a bit wouldn't have been your favorite show of the festiv Totally fine And then I had a little break from Edinburgh Um And I briefly wondered whether I would stop doing comedy. because I found it it's really hard when you start And I Yeah, I wasn't sure whether I would carry on doing it and I found I came back from at the Edinburgh Festival in must it have been twenty fourteen? almost like Don't think I think I'm fine And I don't think I want to be fine as a standup And so I think that this might have been Those five years I had to go comedy and I'll go back to acting or try writing or do something else And I went to my agent is the fantastic flower of the curve And I said said I think I might give up and then I cried in a wholeole foods. Um, which is I mean, a very middle class thing to do. Im cried the whole f because my stab up career wasn't wor. Yeah exactly. I mean, for someone who's comes from a very working class family, that's I mean sounds very arrogant, let's be honest. And she said to me, Ohh, I think if you give it a few more months, give it a few more months. like you know, on of the gigs that you've got in I think you've got something. Cry on, carry on, carry on And then I we're still considering giving up and u She ran me and said, you still like, you know, how's it going? You still when I was like she was like, what about if I told you could support Alan Carr for the next six months on his warm upp tour And I said Okay And then being on tour with Alan His audience are very similar to mine. I had six months.ot It wasn't every single night. There was probably twenty five shows, thirty shows in total over the six months but I had I ripped every gig because I found an audience that If you love Alan, there's a really good chance you might like what I do And I completely whilst at the same time it be a very different flavour to what Alan does. Ely my audience. Yes, exactly. Over those six months, I completely fealling in love of comedy in a way that I hadn't those first two years of trying to be a stand upp, trying to unlock what this puzzle is that makes people I was Whereas then I just started just loving being on stage every night and working with Alan because He is He was the comedian I loved before I was a comic. So his tooth fairy DVD. When I lived in my student flat when I was at drama school We u We would put on tooth before we went out It's a really weird thing It's really strange that I now do stand up. Iten have it on in the background We wouldn't put on music. It's strangely not always, I'm not saying like that's what we always did. but I remember there was quite often we' be like, Oh should you watch a bit about that DVD again before we go out? It's so funny So so we'd watch different bits of it. And so Alan knows all of this now But he was that comic for me who I loved and then I was genuinely thinking, I don't think I'm good enough at standup, I think I'll stop And then just You know very good agenting from Fow and lovely opportunity that Allan was about to go out on the road and he didn't have a lot of material and he wanted to do hundred and fifty cers in North Wales and you know really far away from any big city so he could go and work out what he wanted to talk about And I was very available and very, very keen. and I just completely fell in love with standup. in a way that I never had before What's the kind of ratio of stuff that's funny to stuff that's meaningful in a typical hour in this hour or the sorts of hours? Is it just chunky, bit, bit, bit, bit, bit? I'd say fifty minutes of funny, five minutes of thoughtful Be I think that and I don't think that's the same for everybody. I think that's a kind of stand upp shows that I like writing. but I also think I Um, There's always something with being someone that is openly gay on stage talking about what my life looks like as a gay person and talking about like this year I'm talking about getting married and potentially starting a family. Um For me, it's very important that Um that I say So there's a moment where I sort of go, by the way, this is different for me So the show at the festival is playing really, really well and people are really enjoying it and people are coming up to me after us and saying lovely things. and saying that you know, the bits about gotot a reading about carrying a backack of shame because I was gay feel like I've always had it all my life. It's a very small moment in the show. It's actually a thraway line thats then a callback later on It's important that I say it because I know there'll be people in the audience that that really meanans something to. and the straight people in the audience it's so quick that they won't even notice it At the Ed of the Festival that I'll play great. I know that when I go and play the Darwin Theatre in Blackburn and The majority of the audience will still be straight, but there will be people that have driven for two hours to see me that will be It's important that I have that moment where People that are like me feel seene and feel heard and feel like our stories are being told There was a lady the other night they came up to me after the show and a moment in the show And I mean like A moment I talk about U the LGBT inclusion in schools and then the fact that Alice and I decided we wanted to start a family just before that came out in the press And that it made us worry, well, it wasn't us actually it was me. She's very chill But it made me worry that I Can I Can I be a mum? A my kids going to get bullied A they going it bully because of me. What does that all mean And do I want to Am I going to be putting a child through something if I'm their mum And a lady waited for me afterwards the other night and she was maybe in her sixties and she said, I came out when my thumb was ten And u Things have always been fine. He's never been building. He's an incredible man He loves me and my partner wonderful grandchildren do it do it And then and she said to me like, you know Thank you for talking about our stories on stage, we never get our stories. We never get our stories and stuff because often when there's a gay person in things It will be a punchline or a friend or they'll be like the comical gay guy or like the slightly butch lesbian who says silly things. and it's really or it' be a woman that's gay that has a fling with a man, which is, you know, which happens, which is totally fine. You know, every letter in the LGBTQ plus means something and is important, but I find that as someone that's just I'm just a gay lady that just I find that our stories are rarely told And so I feel like if I make you laugh for fifty minutes. non stop. punching you with gags I totally deserve that moment where I go, Please see me Please see me and see people like me and know that we're normal. And now even just talking about representation do you feel like there is a sense amongst kind of right thinking, nice people that hey, we we're, you know, everyone sees gay people now. Yeah And we still have miles and miles and miles to go I think we I think that, you know Most people in our little bubble, like, you know, I don't need to You know, I don't get any shit in my bubble. I don't get any, you know, no one's uh I'm not getting any homophobia from the artistic London or Edinburghool. You know, I still experxperience homophobia on a routine basis. I'll get shit every time I'm on TV Um, People genuinely think that people like me shouldn't have children It's there's seventy two countries across the world where homosexuality is still illegal, there's eleven countries where it's still punishable by death And I say that and I said that on stage in my last three shows It's really important that people hear that And it's the only thing I've ever repeated at the festival but just because I don't think that people like Alis and I gang on a honeymon I've got a funny little gag about it It's an important thing to consider which is we have to We want to go somewhere hot. But we don't want it to be illegal to be gayer And straight people never have to consider that They never have to go, Oh god, I'd love to Barbados. Oh no, we better not because thatd be a really awkward moment when we're checking in And then We'd probably just have to pretend that we're friends so we'd probably have separate beds we don't wantpar beds on a honeyo And It's important to me that An audience hear that And it's funny. It's a really funny gag It's important that they hear it There are lovely moments throughout your show where you can you can kind of an audience member can kind of identify the gay pockets in the show by reactions There was the night I saw Yeah. there was that one guy that hooted at a joke that Yeah. You know what I mean? It's not that no one else gote it It was just a turn of phrase. Yeah that you were like clocked it and he felt seen. You know what I mean? An of that that was really beautiful. And I'll get that. every night in a different little way even more so on the tour evenven more so on the tour on the Tour Obey It's a weird thing in that like people I'm not a famous person, but There'll be people every night that wait for me because this There's so few gay women that are on television at all. You know, I'm not on it much, but So if you go wom they're on television at all, it's I'm and I think because of the podcast I've got with Tom Allen as well Um, I think feeling like you're sane It's such an important thing And you know, it's representation of cross You know, not obviously just gay people, but, you know peopleople of color, people from different parts of the world, people with different cultures, different religions, you know, people want to feel Sene And I think that And I guess withith my shows is that it's a hundred percent stand up. It's not Theatre, it's not those shows that are sort of like a call to arms. You know, it's funny stand up. It's for everyone and then there might be a little special moment for someone that's just come out or someone a lot of people A lot of gay people come to young gay people come to see my shows with their parents. I get that a lot parents waiting for me with their teenage daughter that's just come out a teenage son that's just out and this a special moment for them, I hope I hope which is lovely which is how I've managed to find my crowd, evenven though when I'm on tour the majority of the audience is still straight which is great because I want to be Be able to pare to everyone There's a throwaway line in the show about Sue Perkins. Yes. In a kind of waiting for her to die, kind of wa. I'm not waiting for her to die,ait for her to retire. Waiting to retire apologies Huge fan of sin. No, there's no one suggested you're hoping for that. No. But waiting for her to retire. Do you feel like how much truth is there in your apprehension of The the places available at the table. Oh, I mean, it's certainly a joke. I think that there's I think there's enough room at the table Um, but You know, you do sort of go Look, for a long time, the only gay women on TV was Superkinsanda Txy and Clare Bolding and that was it. And they were the same women I was coming out, which was when I was twenty, which is thirteen years ago. It's the same women. They're on television There's not really anyone that you can be like They're on TV all the time and theyre Right? there's not And I don't think that I've got to like muscle in for my seat at the table. It is It's a you mean it's a throwaway line about the lack of gay women, I think. I think that's what the gag is. I mean, I just improvis it on the first night of the show. I did do it before. I did it on like literally a week ago, I improvised it and I was like,'s funny. I' st standing. And do you like there doesn't seem in those three women that you've mentioned, None of None of them make an issue of their gayness. There is there an equivalent of camp in lesbian? Oh in the fact that they're quite de sexualised? Yes Um Yeah, don' I don't know if I would say they were dexualized. Well I think that's sometimes is that part of it? Well, I think that's sometimes a thing with cam in that it's not always, of course, but There is this notion of oldld fashioned camp culture, which is like It's nothing to do with sex. it's all to do with like being a bit of a fop beinging a bit over the top or being sort of a character I'm not saying that camp guys are that at all Um, but um, I think there's an element of it that A lot of gameen that were very have been very sort of Okay, like Dal Winton or Jule and Clarary not, he was always quosexual But gay men that are on television would often be sort of dexualized because it's more appealing to a straight audience. If it's just You know, you don't have to think about them having a partner or what they do in the Door the shop Um and I guess there's some of that with um with those women I mean the sort of thing is that like, you know, they're all very clever They'rever, clever middle class lesbians you'd around for dinner. They're acceptable somehow. Exactly. It's except for professor lesbianism And I don't know how'm unacceptable, but I It's quite important for me that I don't talk about sex that much. that I'm not in that You're not necessary to say that they are that I'm My sexuality is part of me Not a massive part It'sust who I going to bed with you know, but it's, um Yeah, I guess that I've sort of made a decision that I didn't want to be sort of a dexualised version of that you something I really something really appealed to me about your show is that you and the fact it appealed to me was kind of to do more with the maturity, maybe of your writing. There was no moment where you did a kind of like an introductory I'm gay joke. No. Do what I mean? And that felt like a decision on your part that felt mature and not to suggest anyone doing the equivalent is immature There's often a kind of set upp of the character with a gay person. Yeah, you know, which I've had for years. you know, I'm, you know, I don't know if I need to come out, my hair gives it away or whatever. Yeah. I've had those. So you know, so my girlfriend, sorry boys, or what you know, those kind those things ye. And the decision this time was not to have one of them. Yeah. So talk to me about that decision I don't know, I just feel I haveve done a lot of coming out jokes I mean like I'm like catch up. Um But I guess also You know been out on television a lot you know, whenever I'm on, you know, I'll often do a gag about being gay. you know, and in like a Panel show situation is quite easy way to get a lagh Um But yeah, it was a So decision not to do it. And I don't know exactly where it comes from But I was like, I'm not going I'm not going to come out in this year's show. I'm just gonna to be I just I think that really resonated It like the absence of that joke. Oh I hadn't even considered that Yeah I don't know, I don't know quite what I mean. I think The absence of that joke was felt somehow.. You know, part of when I kind of came away thinking Like I like I've always enjoyed your work and I came away thinking fucking hell Ruffles got really good. partart of that is a maturity and part of that is a kind of definiteness in the way that you're if you're playing chess, you're putting the pieces down like Do you mean that that's how that that show fllt. Well, that's the thing I think that I mean, one of the The most important thing with standandup is that you're enjoying your show And I think with this one, I really enjoy it I really it's exactly what I like doing And that and I think there's a conffidence within that, whereas like this year You know it's so hard at the festival because you're constantly being reviewed, which I absolutely hate I hate seeing people at the end of every big routine looking down with a notepad Um I don't know it's something that, you know, sort of people, you know, it happens because It happens, but I do notes to the reviewing community findind a different way to make notes. Show. God knows how, donon't be visible making notes. but enday ends. And there's You know, there's a lot of reiewers that I really like and respect who have, you know, really supported me but I do I hate being reviewed, of course Um, withith this show I'm like Basically, if you like what I do, you'll like this show. I think this is me doing what I do best. If you don't like what I do, this will not change your mind This is the comedian that I want to be. And if you don't like it, that's totally fine. I found an audience the day And the response from the audience every night and the people coming up to me afterwards has confirmed that that I'm like, this is I think critics will like the show But the audience that come and see me will love this show. and that's what's most important So let's talk about the writing, like day one of the writing process. Is there ever a day one or is it always that you are cycling in new stuff into an existing support or new material slot. Yeah, always I don't really I don't type it out I don't sit down and I'll do like a spider diagram. I like all different ideas, what's the funniest things out of those Um I'll improvise a bit. there'll be something that happens and what often happens is there'll be a line that So One of the early ges in the show is that my mum has a catch phphrase. and her catchphrase is, are you look tired? And I The idea of my mum having a catchphrase I thought was really funny. and then I just tried Th different versions of what a catchdays could be Tired got the biggest laugh That was it.. tides are in down And so And he is that you tried three versions, all of which were true about things your mother's ss. Right. They you tired. you're too thin U you're teoth tired, your tooet thin and u Your hair is very short. But your tide gets the most. Sure. So your tide's in. U but I think that I think I was I'm very much I think there are two camps of comedy And it's performers that learn to write or writers that learn to perform, and I' definitely a performer that learned to write. I think that was the thing with those two early shows I mentioned earlier The act outs were very good. That would be what everyone would say. The act outs were very good, The accents were good, there taking on different characters, doing that sort of thing. I could always do that. It took me a little while to get good at writing And I think that's because of a range of reasons. onene of them being I have severeid dyslexia and I never thought that writing was for me because I didn't think that I was good enough at it So actually In the first of four or five years of me doing stand upp, the idea of sitting down with a pen and paper was terrifying because I'd never written anything since my GCSA's I went drum S squad did a vocational course. I didn't do A levels. I did a vocational course because I hate Writing And now I'm a writer, which is very strange. I didn't think that I could. I hadn't like sort of given myself the permission to think of myself as a writer. So It was just always me improvising bits and then making notes of the improvisation rather than improvising bits been sitting down and writing a better version of that improvised bet And so I think what happened for a long time is that I made the same mistakes over and over again but didn't hadn't worked out how I could change it. And so Now writing is something that I really enjoy doing. And so This year shows about me being happy And so The first thing that I did was make a list of all the things that made me happy and then the two Everything comes from truth. There's not one thing in the show that's a lie There' I mean, the ending bits are lies, the punchlines are lies, you know, the the way in which I stretch out the story and give you colour that wasn't really there That's all the creativity of writing Everything in the show is true. The fact that it's called Dance L likeikeveryone's watching, it's completely true that my mum misread a sign that said Dance likeike noody's watching We were in Wilkinson's she misread it We're all dyslexic. It was hilarious I wrote it down and Yeah, every how I then play with the truth is where the laughs come Oh, wr right down. okay, what's made me happy this year? This that, the other my girlfriend. but buying a little flat U my career all these silly little things and then go What's the funniest things They are true. that's happened in all these little scenarios In these little worlds of my life, my world of my relationship, what's the funny things that have happened in the last year Alice and I have experienced What part of it can I make funny on stage And u That's how the whole show iss written. The show will never be typed up It's an absolute buarger when I have to do bits for TV and then I could just send across the script? I don't have the script. Um, And then what I usually do is I record the show and then pay someone to type it up for me because I'm It would just be easier. I found the website Fiverr is Oh really for that. Oh o. Yeah ye to know. The entirety of the show. I put a picture of this on Instagram a little while ago on like my stories bit The whole of the show is fourour lines of words and each word is probably about F minutevent And that's it. That's as written Four lin of words, how you mean? Do it? I'm going to show you And then you can maybe do a better explaining. Do a better explaining. Do a better explaining, please, Stu. Um okay, well this is a slightly longer version, but basically That's as written as the show will ever be Oh yeah, lovely So it's just like flat moving. Ryan. Yeah, ye, yeah. So what we've got here is sort of twenty five lines eachach of which has got between two and six words on it separated by little slashes, little dashes or forwards. What's the difference between a dash and a forward slash? I use exactly this technique. A dash has no idea forward slashes Fllowing on. Great, love it. I do exactly the same thing, that's hilarious. And this is literally the back of a postcard, I see, which is quite sweet Yeah, the postcard has a quality wren on it, which is what I'd take on stage and put down. And some people would notice it and some people wouldn't. Great So that's I've, you know, I remember Stephen Grant, the comedian U messaging me and saying Oh my god, like I put it I put something put like, I going back to Edinburgh, whatever and then a picture of like papers all over my floor And he said Do you only ever handwriteer out, do you not W process it No, it doesn't that doesn't feel creative to me tapping. It feels creative to write with my rel hands that's how I wr. and I think that that's a little bit different to other people, but I think it's about There's a thing isn't there. Like when you start h stand on. It's like, you have to do it like this and you have to do it like that and you've got to think that Stewart Lee is the best. You just have to. that's the rules. have to we want to think that Stewart L le is the best. and we all have to write like this and do that and And I just I think that's why it took me a little bit longer to find my voice for want of a better word Um, because None of those tools worked for me because I didn't go to university and I don't and I didn't I don't know how to sit down and write in front of a computer because I never had to write dissertation only have four GCSEs, so I never concentrated at school and So I had to find my own way of doing that, which is I've bought a flat It was a funny thing that happened with an estate agent Okay. Heres all the funny happen with this state agent. Okay, I'm going to top secret I'm not being paid so I can do I want Here's some funn things that happen with an estate agent record it, listen back to it, tick, tick tick, cross cross cross. there's the beginning of a routine It's interesting to me that you attribute that discovery of your voice in part to like the fact it took me a long time. It's because I'm dyslexic, it's because I'd never had the university thing. Whereas I would say the reality is you have taken an absolutely average amount of time to find your voice. It's just that the people with whom you're knocking around are If they're Kevromash and Josh, those are all the people who found their voices the fastest out of everyone. You know, and they're also excellent comedians. Yeah One of the things that defines all of those people Kevin, I did so you think you're funny with Kevin Yeah. And I remember at the time, everyone was going like, Has he been doing this for forty years? Yeah. you know, He was like twenty. Yeah he was eighteen. I think he was eighteen. Yeah Hven't Because those people found their voices incredibly quickly. just had that kind of you know. So that's almost one of the disadvantages of the useful slip stream of supporting excellent comics and learningam. One of the disadvantage perhaps is that you put yourself or you kind of and I'm sure we all do come up with reasons why I always think God if I hadn't pissed around on the street, taking risks, challenging myself, having a wonderful time and enjoying all the art around me. But my preconception is like Oh, I could have Yeah I was grinding out shows when I could have been learning. you know, I think everyone carries around. Yeah, of course. If not a backpack and if not a shpe. Yeah. Maybe it's, you know, a pocket watch of o, this isn't idea Hell I did get it wrong like this. Yeah I mean, Kevin is the out of the people that I only done a little bit of support for Kevin They were the harder shows because he is Like he's got such a specific audience. Sure that absolutely love him. Yeah. where when I've been doing support for other people, they've been like, oh, okay, something else. sureure. But with Kevin, it's like, fuck off. you're like, o that. I I like come off after being like, Ohh, that was tough and then watch him completely annihilate it and be phhenomenal and then go home and go. I need to work harder. I'm not sure what this is. But yeah maybe it is. It has taken me a normal amount of time. I think that You know, it's difficult sometimes when you're someone that's not been like in that category of like having a first Edinburgh that's amazing where you've like got all four stars, a couple of three. sure, you might have been like on the long list for the nominations or been nominated for newcomer. That's like it does feel like if you don't start out in stand up like that then you've not had a good start. But actually, you know, the year that I was not nominated U You know, there are people now that don't even do stand up or aren't even or certainly don't do the same sort of things as I do now and And I'm sure they're doing their own thing, which is brilliant, but I can't even exactly remember who all of them were because They're doing different things and they're not necessarily stand upps anymore. The ecosystem of being a new act is extraordinarily Punishing mentally I don't think can do it again. I look now and I go I don't know how I carried on doing stand upp when I was like, I was mediocre for I think a lots of us are. mediocre for quite a long time when I'd only come out two years before I started doing stand upp So it only told people who I really was two years before. So Then I was telling audiences. I still didn't even really know how to express who I was You know, and so It's Yeah, I so I had like a I didn't I didn't know so I wasn't authentic on stage U And u You know, I guess that it sometimes feels like if you're not in that Oh, you're in the final of this competition and that competition or you win a thing, or you're in this list of six names that come out of the Edinburgh Festival that is the deciding thing about who the new people are It's really easy to feel like you fail But you haven't, you're just doing what you're doing and you'll find out the best way of doing it and That's Brilliant. That figurered like people comics often say, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah One of the reasons we all think it's a sprint is because we all start our marathon. And a hundred meters into the marathon, someone takes a picture and goes, there we go. thoseose are the winners G was clever gooldsmith. That's exactly what that is. Yeah We do it is a marathon, but everyone is fucking constantly pretending it's a sprint. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm pleased that it has taken me like So I did liine at the Apllo last year, which was Like the highlight of My life Maybe my life, no, but the highlight of my career certainly. and it was a dreamy gig. A lot of people have said to me, Oh, it can be tough, it can be quite a tough gig the audience alert. it's You know it can be sort of a funny setup. Lit lit in a sense of if you can see their faces. Yeah not like Yeah ye the audience of them litit No, s sorry. there's lighting on the audience so that cameras can haveutaway shots to people laugh And You know, people have said to me, I'm sure Ill have a great great gig, but just be aware It can be tough and I have probably one of my guest gigs of last year at and it's serendipitous, you know, it's I was lucky that Karrie Goodlin was hosting, who's really good friend of mine Caree was on and Felicity was on the early show ' because they shoot two in a night, and Cere and Felicity two are my really good friends We got hang out all day together M me a lot less nervous than I've been sing room by myself Cerry ripped it. I know that if you like Cerry Godlman, there's a good chance you're like me. We're not a million miles apart. and she started had this incredible gig was smashing it and I got to slide straight into the slipstream. because I wasn't doing anything different get, you know, and um Yeah, I think that H wanted to do Apollo for three years before that and had been knocking on the door and they'd been coming to see me but not booking me and being like, we like her, but not yet And that was frustrating at the time. When I walked off stage at the Apollo, I was like, tonight. was the night that I was meant to do it. It was meant to take this long. It was meant to be, you know, whereas some of my friends did the Apollo after four years of doing stand upp. I did it after nearly eleven. but it was Perfect It was the best night. And it was amazing. And Um, And if you would tellld me when I started stand upp, this is, you know you're going to be shit for a bit I' have been like,h no, I probably won't. It's so hard. And you look back and go, you know the the laugh that you get when you' no They sort of fuel you for such a long time. likeike When you first start ripping gigs or having really good shows You'd be on a high for like two days Now it's like twenty minutes and I'm like, Heyah is You know, and so and it's those things that you like cling on to. I remember when I was still temping and gigging. You know, and I'd be like joyful for the next two days doing photoc copies. After being like, I've got a new bit that worked in front of ten people Oh my go. I'm winning. Um But similarly As you say, if you had to go back and start again. Oh, it's so tough It's so tough and like, you know, there'll be people at the fringe that are having really hard years And it's really And when you're having a hard year, you don't have the perspective to say it as a hard year. You just think, I'm shit at this is. You also can't go in six years it'd be much better. you're like S years But It's about I guess one thing that comedy' really taught me is about patience. and I have really enjoyed You know, after those first couple of years Well once I' got on the road with Alan And I was really enjoying being a stand up best time. I've absolutely loved it And I say on stage, I love my job Absolutely true. like Doing the telly' great. Doing the panel shows are fun We did a little travel loog series earlier in the year called The Comedy B. We went to different people's hometowns So fun, but there's nothing that I'm enjoying more My hour on stage every night. When you were selecting your material for the Apollo, you probably had quite a lot to choose from. Yeah So what kind of decisions did you make I knew that I was going to do my routing about naked attraction because It was a routine that I improvised on stage and I never changed a word of. Oh, yeah And so it was just thats out And I've done it in all different situations. I've done it opening for Katherine Ryan You know, with her audience, I'd done an opening for Josh, I've done it on my little tour I've done it at the Birmingham Gley, I've done at the London store. It worked everywhere I can't remember time it didn't work. And I can't say that about all of my bets And so Um I knew that was in. I knew I had to do a gag where I set myself up I had to let them know I was gay in a way, you know, like we said, I don't do in the show, but when you're doing in front of that When you're saying hello to that many people you know For most people, that might have been the first time they've ever seen me on teley So I need to go just so you know I know I'm gay. Like that's sort of what you have to do. This is a choice to look like this. It's not a choice to be gay, but to is basically where I need to stay at the top but Yeah, I think that I just used the bits that I thought were funniest and then stitch them together And then I I'm a big practiser I did like at fifteen times the exact set fifteen times around London The exact set. Changing like one word here or there Um and Yeah and then then and that was yeah, that was it. I was just And then you send across your script and they okay it And so they did that and they cada And I was like, okay, this is it, this is the routine. And I was really happy with it. you know, you record twenty minutes, seven goes out on the show They really cut it down, but I was happy with the cart and people seem to enjoy it. It's actually the only time that I've never got. An show on Twitter When Ive been on Ty, I didn't get onene piece of negativity. who were said me, don't want it to the night that it goes out just in case And so the next day I looked and I was like Not one bit of your shirt I mean, I've had your shitt before, sure, but for my Apollo set, I didn't get bit of it, which was lovely. And the shit that you're getting is it because you're a woman, because you're gay, because why you want? I to callor man yeah, I mean, some people don't like Kind of sound if I day. That's cool I mean, there's no need to let me know, just stop watching U but some people yes, some people don't like funny women. And some people don't like the gazays. I mean, I'll get a bit of like you're gonna burn in hell You just get you just have to take that in your stride to. Repent now God, I wouldn't even haveagined you would get it. I think he's done with it. If she did But yeah, it's u That's a different thing That's like a weird thing of I did a show last year which I really liked to well actually that was about being trolled by this one guy who created thirteen different Twitter accounts. And I always knew it was him was skeletal's face. so it had the same avatar and slightly different wording of who of the name. but I would block him He would create a new You must try to create new email addresses. likeike you'd go to the trouble of just to tell me I was disgusting. that what I was putting in front of children was wrong, that I was dangerous, that People like me were ruining the world. That's why the world's falling apart because of gay marriage I mean, I think it might have some other things But there might be some other reasons for that, but That takes it out of you. That takes it out of you. you know, all of the plus thingsings of being like like I was saying earlier about P that come to my sher that they feel he. That's lovely. The downside is that There are people that You know There are senators in Congress in America who genuinely think It will be better If they killed all gay people, if there was a cold You know, the deputy president of America You know, Donald Trump once joked about Mike Pence where he wants to hang all the gays anyway, and then they both laugh You know As a gay person, you can You know, shrug v does slightly knock away at yourself. and go There are a lot of people that think that I'm that I need therapy to go out. There, you know, like U I've got a friend that's making a documentary at the moment about the fact that gay conversion therapy happens in London every week every week. It feels like a very American thing, but it's happening in the UK as well Homophobia is still alive and well. You know, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be, but it's interesting. I did Richard Herring's podcast And inute I spoke a little bit about being gay and someone messaged me being like, What the fuck you have to keep on about being gay? Homophobia doesn't happen anymore So the fact that you felt the need to tell me that means that homophobia is happening because I'm just telling you about my life I'm just telling you about what I experience and what I have to experience And so That's the thing that It's the lovely thing to be like to be able to feel like you're a voice and to be able to feel like saying the right things, We were saying the things that you wish that you had heard. You know, like, I wish a teacher at school had told me it was a KBA, I would have saved thousands in therapy You know, that's why that LGBT inclusion thing is so important now S You know, there will always be someone that Hopefully not always, but there often is someone that now because I I talking about this in a very public way Um just think that I'm piece of shir. I think it's a choice and think that it's and that is the thing that is I'd say the hardest. and when people make it very personal, like, you know People like he shouldn't have children. When you talk about spending thousands on therapy does it complicate what is I mean, all mental health is complicated. But presumably one's sexuality and ones Apprehension of one's sexuality further confuses like were you depressed about? talk to me about talkalk to me about therapy. Talk to me about mental health I'm anxious person, so I've always been a worried, but I think that comes from the fact that when I was thirteen or twelve or thirteen, I realised I was gay And I think that's where my anxiety started because my fear was If anyone finds out about this to hate you. And so I just had this massive secret. And it was seven years until I came out. I came out when I was twenty. and there were boyfriends in that time and there were You know, I tried to have relationships with guys because I was so desperate not to be gay. I really didn't want to be gay. I don't I think very few people I realize that guy Maybe less so now because it feels like a more positive world for gay people. Certainly if for younger people That. I went the day that I realized I was ged. there wasn't necessarily a day but when I was like, oh, I think I'm definitely like that I remember thinking I wish I could be anybody else in the world And I'd sit at school thinking, I wish I was her I wish I was her, I don't have to deal this. I w I was them. I wish it was them. And I think and I guess that's where a lot of my anxiety started that I that I was terrified that people would find out I was gay. terrified And part of it is because there was no gay women for me to look out on television think I'm normal and I guess that's why I've always been so openly out And I'm not trying to be a fucking hero and I'm not trying to like be a It's just saying people like us exist. And also, I'm really funny and maybe you'll like me and straight people like me. and I'm not this weird idea of what a gay person is, I'm just a person. that's really It was a really hard thing for me, which is a strange thing now because I am so open about my sexuality I hated that I was gay. I was really ashamed. I really hated every part of who I was. It's why I started doing acting so I could just pretend to be somebody else for a few hours just desperate to be like my female cousins, who I'm really close to, who we're all in my head normal. And u You know I guess it's cliched in some ways, but I always make people la That was my way of dealing with it by being stupid That way I wouldn't You know, I'd be stupid to the boys at school rather than trying to kiss them I do something like mad O or I'd be really nughty or I'd climb on the top of the school and run across the roof of the school and do really stupid things and be Oh my go, Jes he's funny And then no one would see that I was gay I was being funny And then if you're funny, you get picked on less and people won't thinking Why is she a bit weird like that Is there any part of your current practice as a comic which you feel is still defined Bye kids you knew at school and your feelings about them. One of my preconceptions is always like every time I have a really good gig, a tiny part of me is thinking Oh, well done, St, you are continuing to prove something to some children that no longer exist. Yeah think that I mean, I think my desire to be liked I mean, I definitely have a lot less of that on stage now And I'm a lot more comfortable in the fact that like some people like some people who don't, that's totally fine Certainly in the first sort of six, seven years of stand up. D desperate for the crowd to like me. Like me like me laugh, laugh, clap, clap may reassure me that you like me so it doesn't feel like school I'm just gonna sit with that for. Yeah. and that is And I think that's why I hate being viewed judged by comics. by not comics sorry, crritics. Yeah because I'm I find it difficult at the festival because I don't reviews. I just know the stars. But I need to know the stars because people are like, why don't you just do not look at all? Like, Oh what I will say about myself Wh I can imagine someone writing about me is so much worse any critical right that I can make up like a story in my head of like All these terrible things about myself, which aren't true But you know, I can do that And I'm sure like I'm sure people have said that to you before on the podcast, but it's is that sort of Y desire to be liked. which is strange thing because a lot of comedians have it and it is So a bar into an audience. And And it's and it's it interferes. it's an obstacle in the in the way of creatingity. hundred percent I remember in your I remember seeing the branding for for a For some of your shows maybe ree and four years ago. And I felt like you were experimenting with your positioning Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I talkau a lot about class. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. so with the show that was like my The first show where I was being me on stage was called Common And it was like an investigation into my working class family want to for a better word and And I'm from a very working class family. It's a weird thing because I've got a bit of I'm like, I'm not I don't sound super working class Portsworth is a really weird accent, that's a mture. Yeah, right. It's a mixture of Devon and Cckney. Yeah, ye hang on. So the vowels are really weird. so it doesn't necessarily read as really common the show is about the fact that Noobody in my family's been to youing, not there's anything wrong with that. but Everyone's A brick layer, a labouorer Um a roofer, hairdresser works in a shop My dad buys and sells horses and Lorries and was a long distance raer driver for all of my childhood and u I wanted to write a show about that because I realized that I was Not surrounded by, but I was with a lot of people that' been to Oxbridge or that had been to a university and had this already felt like they had this sort of status in the world, whereas I always felt like I I didn't quite know where I belonged And so that was the first show with me really talking about my family and it's the I all of a sudden started writing really funny stuff because I stopped trying. to be a different type of comedian. I just spoke about what I knowew So that show was common and I did that in the five pound fringe or the pay what you want fringe. And I sort of gathered a little audience that really liked me. and after the first week it was selling out or there would be queues of people paying what they want. It was The best fringe I'd ever had. I got really good reviews. I was getting four stars and I was just like, you know, I was someone that had stars on their poster and I'd never had that before. And it was very nerve wracking, but I loved it And then the next year I came back and did a show called Keeping it Classy And that was about the fact that I live in a middle class world and I'm probably middle class now I still have a very working class family and Who are we when we straddle two worlds when we pretend to be someone to our family and then we pretend to be someone slightly different. And then who does that mean that we are if we're always pretending to be someone different? And that show I then filmed for Life from the BBC And so that's A lot of the stand upp that's out there in the world that people can watch me doing is from that show And then last year I sort of took on U my mental health, I want to talk about anxiety. Um And u I really enjoyed that show. and end that show was about The fact that a lot of my anxiety comes from the lack of representation of gay people in the media or gay women specifically in the media. And u Then this year I was like I've done it. I' like what else have I got to say What else have I got to say? And then I was like, Oh, I'm happy And then honestly, my first thought was Oh shit, ye. Terrible Terrible. I've got a woman a woman that I loved bits. We've got a nice life, we've got I get to do what I love for a job. and all of my success has come from me going, o, I don't know. Oh things have gone wrong. Oh go. Keing it classy was a lot about me having my heart broken and feeling like I had to start again as a person because My heart was broaking so into such smithereens that I couldn't quite work out who I was anymore without that relationship. and the week that the breakup happened, my nan also died and it was this weird thing and it was probably the best stand upp I' had ever written And then the sh I was like, oh go I'm happy Does that mean I'm not funny? And then I thought Well, that's That's a sh I'm not sure the question was but that's the answer How are you feeling about the next five years of shows in terms of subject matter? I don't know, I'm not coming back to Edinburgh next year. I feel creatively I feel like I've said I've done four years on the bounce. And I feel like that's about my limit for show. so I'll have a little break. I'll tour this show for a bit. Hopefully flucky here and about. And um then on I necessarily a little break from standup but I don't know, like I mean, I talk about it in the show, I'm really hoping that that Alice and I adopt I feel like there'll be things to say about that. I feel like that's a story that's not heard a lot. There are, you know, there are some people that are talking about that sort of thing, but Um, Certainly something that I I wish there was more stuff out there about people that are adoptive families and that you know, you've really got to hunt find about people that have adopted, I'm reading everything at the minute. and you do have to really seek it out. and so it would be lovely to be able to put something out there in the world about what that experience is like. Um But I don't know, presumably things will happen and I'll write about them. does that Is there an element where you're sort of thinking ahead and going, o if I talk about an adoption journey, then I've made the decision to tell my child that they're adopted? Oh It's just given that you tell them now Is that Yeah like also yeah like so you have like quite a lot of therapy when you begin talking about whether you're going to adopt and it's very much on you know, a baby from three years old Adoption is like a word that you use all of the time So that it feels very normal in your home That's nice. Yeah Okay So I'm certainly not thinking like, oh, great, I'll do a show about adoption. But I just mean, whatever, mayaybe Alice and I won't adopt. Maybe we'll decide not to have children. Maybe who knows what will happen? I mean, I think that that's the road that we're going down But I guess whatever' happening in my life That' be what I'm talking about. because I think There's sort of two types of comics, which are Pople this sort of feeleel what's going on around them and tell you how they feel Well they observe what's going on about them and tell you what they observe And I'm definitely a feeler That' really well put. That absolutely guys. my next question was going to be about because the base of the spider diagram is always what's happened to me and I'm the same. Yeah deep down. I try sometimes to write an out there. What's happening to me? Yeah fucking writing. No's not No that's not how my as work No, and that's the thing that's what I was struggling with when I was first starting out. and I think while a lot of people do, which one of these am I You know, often you'll watch a newer act and they'll sort of do a bit of observation and then a bit of me and then a bit and sometimes you can package it together and it will work. but For me, I'm definitely like a feeler. L this is how I feel. This is what happened to me. This is what this did to me And so I guess wherever I am in my life They It'll be me talking about that But I feel like This show is a really great example of where I am right now And I would just hope to write another show like that Last question. Yes. If you were to review yourself. Oh Godd, honestly What if I had to like re you anw show that I'm doing now? you know yourself as a comic. So let's say a club set, the type just the type of comic that you are If you were to critically review yourself and go, These are her strengths, these are her weaknesses. Okay Um And there there's no right way of doing this. No I'm interested in what it reveals the way you see yourself good or bad. Um She brings like E on stage with her, there's nothing that there's nothing that I'm scared of talking about. Um Her physicalities are really good, Her voices and accents or characterizations A very funny Um She's not reinventing the wheel, but she's doing what she does very well