Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris Prospects

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Watch all one hundred and four matches of the FIFA World Cup live in four K for just nineteen doll ninety nine cents a month, with three days free. Build your own multi view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox O, offers a subject to change seefox. com for complete terms and conditions the rise of Trump, suddenly these kind of fringe figures views that are way out of the mainstream, those things became assets under Trump. Certain longstanding right wing figures like Tal and David Sachs, who were suddenly vaulted to to really to the top astronons of power. And then you have people like Zuckerberg who kind of saw and Zuckerberg in particular is a guy who lacks a real moral center of his own soou so he kind of s with the wind. it's a strange thing to see, but You know what it looks like is just somebody shifting to whatever supports their business interests and their financial interests and their power. There's a real I think a cynical approach to politics are of the part of a lot of the companies. Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Hugh Ootty. I'm executive edit of the Daily Beast and I'm filling in for Joanna Hooles Our guest today is Jonathan Weber, journalist. author of the brilliant new book City on Edge, which our own Michael Wolf calls a riveting tale We're going to talk about San Francisco, the city, which has given us some of the biggest names in American life right now And we have some dynamate gossip about a couple of them. We are going to reveal why the tech Lords went mad and then went Trumpy We're going to name who and Trump's inner circle was an underwear model And who posed on a rug with Kimberly Gilfoyil And we're going to talk about why San Francisco might be the place that produces not one but two Democratic challengers for the Oval Office in twenty twenty eight. But before we dive into the show and a brilliant dispatch from the future, please take a moment, share this podcast with your friends, invite them to subscribe to the Daily Beast YouTube channel. We are closing in on seven hundred thousand followers With your help, we can get to one million Jonathan Weber, welcome to Dilyabiess podcast. Thank you for joining us U thank you Barry me? I just want to hold up This is the book we are going to be talking about. It's pretty amazing. I've been absolutely riveted. It's called city on the edge And it's about it's about the city of San Francisco, but it's really about modern America was my conclusion. It's an amazing story U There are some names. I just want to get some names out there that are in this because it's the most incredible aid to But it is the, I guess, of everybody that's important. you've got Everybody that's significant. You've got Nancy Pelosi, Camela Harres, Gavin Newsom Elon Musk Mark Zuckerberg, I managed to make it to Z. and of course, you've got Donald Trump . What should people know about San Francisco? Wh why it's so important Yeah, well, first off, thank you for the kind words on the book. I appreciate it and it's a pleasure to be here. I do think you're right that the book it's about San Francisco, but I think it really says a lot about America and San Francisco is a very iconic city in America. It kind of stands for many things and And it's a symbol politically at the moment of kind of the left wing It's San Francisco values, Nancy Pelosi, are kind of held up as often kind of parodied around San Francisco values prorogressivism But the real political story of San Francisco is a bit different than that. It's a very sophisticated political machine that has produced a number of top national politicians, obviously most recently being Gavin Nsom and Kamala Harris And the political culture of the city is not uniformly progressive as people think. It's a much more diverse group. And in fact, both Harris and Newsom are actually kind of moderates centrist in the grand political firmament of the U.S I do think that the book provides some good insight about those politicians and kind of how they came to power and what they're like and how they operate I think the other thing that is huge in the book is we're just talking about A to Z and I should have started I guess with Mark Bene off, he's nearest to A The Tch Lords. It is absolutely stuffed with amazing stories about the tech lords and I'm just going to put this really crudely You've been in San Francisco since nineteen ninety before there were tech lords you watch them rise and the way I read this book You kind of watched them go mad, what happened Yeah, I I think that's not a bad that's not a bad summary. I mean The short answer would be that these companies got so gigantic and the fortunes that the top moguls have earned are so stupendous, almost unthinkable amounts of money. And the consequence of that is to really separate them from the world. They're really not part of the normal world that you and I occupied. One person that I quote in the book aboutout this issue is a woman named Esther Dyson, who's a well known investor and kind of onpresario of the of the tech world for a very long time. She's known all these people since they were in their twenties. and her analysis is basically, you get surrounded with all these yes men and layers and layers of security and protection and people telling you you're so great. And you just kind of lose your mind in a way. lose track of what's real and And what isn't U I did see that, you know, over a very long period of time, you know, back in the nineties, it was a very different scene Obviously what really animates this and the big name that kind of hangs over the story of modern America and the story, I guess of San Francisco, is Donald Trum You watch them absolutely get detached from reality. And there's an amazing anecdote, actually, I just need to to I just need to pass on from the book U, which is that you watch the mission and how that area had once been heavily Latino and very much you know, a blue collar and middle class area of San Francisco and the tech people start moving in. In twenty twelve, Mark Zuckerberg put down ten million dollars for a house in Dolores Heights And the estimate of the value of the house was only three point two million I mean, if that's not detachment from reality, I don't know what is when you go, oh, I fancy living there. Three times the value, sureure, I'm in Was that the sort of this sort of crazy wealth? Was that being played out That was been played out in front of your eyes really Yeah, and that and that is one of the things that created, as you can imagine, a a certain amount of social tension. I mean, people felt like this is an invasion. peopleople like Zuckerberg coming in knocking on someone's door saying, I want to buy your house. Well, the house isn't for sale. Well How about five million? Well, how about ten million? I mean, that kind of dynamic is very alienating for the people who who were on the other end of that of that dynamic and uh And you see it again now with artificial intelligence where the price of housing is just being bitid up in an unbelievable fashion. And big it's a big problem because the city can't really solve the problem of high housing costs very easily. That's a big long term problem that's built up over many, many years. And so that's going to create another new round of tensions in the city Hey guys, finding the perfect gift for the food lover in your life is easy. Thanks to Goldbelly. Goldbelly ships America's most iconic foods, straight from world famous restaurants right to your door. 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Trump You saw you saw the tech lords Not uniformly, but many of them go from being what I seem to be As you said, San Francisco values kind of broadly seen as progressive Trumpy, and we saw Mark Zuckerberg on Sunday night was at the a spectacle on the south lawn of the cage match being played out by UFC for Donald Trump's birthday withith Mark Beneff as a very prompt character in your book drifting slowly to right What happened to them Why did they go Trumpy Well, I think there are a couple things First of all, againg to go back to just the kind of sheer scale of the money that was involved. and And I think that they saw that Trump was friendly to the money in a senseing lower taxes and less regulation, all those kinds of things U So I think that was that was part of it I think the social justice movement in the in the twenty ten s and Black Lives Matter and all the things that uh, that came with that There was a lot of pressure on companies to make certain kinds of policies internally. Things they didn't necessarily want to do, but they did because their employees were demanding it. And then And then that kind of turned. so with the with the second election of Trump It was sort of permission to throw all that out the window, which a lot of people didn't really like those policies very much anyway. And so then so Trump gave permission in a sense to say, we don't care about all this social justice stuff. and that was something that the the mogul was attracted attractive to the to the Mguls because they were kind of sick of being told they had to do this or that, sick of being criticized for being rich Yeah One person I talked to at some length is Mark Pinkas, who is the founder of Zinga And Mark was was a hippie. He was a liberal, a big burning man guy, you know, he had typical liberal tech guy But over time, he got very alienated by the left wing drift of the Democratic Party and felt it had become very sin serious and kind of against what free wheeling San Francisco was about and he and he supported Trump in the last election h Mark even even Mark Benyoff who has been a hardcore liberal supporter of many liberal causes has kind of made that part of the philosophy of his company of Salesforce. and even even Benny off I recently said to the great chagrin of u pretty much everyone who knew him, he said that maybe Trump should bring the National Guard into San Francisco. So even even a liberal like Bennyoff is kind of seeing the appeal of this sort of more pro business, that's kind of intuitively attractive to these big bosses. You've mentioned Mark Pinkus and what have I onene of the most intriguing anecdotes from the early Esh days of tech I'm St I think this is I think we're in we're sort of in the early early two not early two thousand, mid two thousands And you see Pinkers who had moved to the city immersing himself in it And it's quite a remarkable way he's got to immerse himself in the city. I'm He and his friend Emily Morse, later a popular sex bloger. I will take your word for it the streets in a satirical search for sex clubs. I mean, it's kind of crazy, right? But there's a link, isn't there between that and going Trumpy? Well, yeah, I mean, think so San Francisco core of the culture is a kind of a radical freedom almost or perission to permission to be who you want to be, to do what you want to do, to create your own world, your own lifestyle, peopleople aren't going aren't going to get on you about that. That's like, okay, everyone can kind of do their thing. And so So that is actually attractive to technologists, right? Because a lot of technology development can be pretty out there and the government often has an interest in kind of controlling it. And so San Francisco was a place that gave permission like, hey, no, go do your thing, play with tech all of that. So So I think that u . a satirical search for sex clubs to do videos to put on the local cable access channel in San Francisco. you know that's a very San Francisco kind kind of endeavor, I would say So let's talk about some of these big these big characters and We talk about the attraction of the of them to the biggest character of all that we have in modern politics, which is Donald Trump. You know, I wass going to say for good or for all Pe can guess. but I'm Th big characters, Mark Zuckerberg set up a Fort Zuckerberg in the mission Ben offff tried to put himself out there as a kind of liberal and then drifted off O people are I'm pererhaps slightly more sinister, if I'm honest in your portrayal of them And particularly this new wave of Trumpy podcasters who have come from the tech world I'm And you talk about the All in podcast crew and how the They were liivving outside San Francisco, but determined to have a say in San Francisco, more than a say to try and determine what goes on in San Francisco. I swe you but the sort of the mentality of these of these people from the tech world, and why do they think San Francisco is so important Well, so too speak specifically about about Foundnderers' Fund, Well, Fnder' Fund is the venture capital fund that u That is kind of the center that's Peter Thal's venture capapital fund and is kind of the locus of a lot of the sort of far right venture capitalists. And then and David Sachs, who's one of the leaders of the All in podcast, he's a long time right winger. I mean, back in his Stanford days, he was the co editor of the Stanf for Review, which wrote stories like talking about how women shouldn't be computer scientists because they couldn't do math and things like that. And so he's a well known, long standing, really a fringe figure on the far right uh who who with the rise of Trump Suddenly, these kind of fringe figures who are very in many cases, including Sachin, very obnoxious presence on social media, really has views that are way out of the mainstream Yet those things became assets under under Trump And so you had u you know, certain longstanding right wing figures like Tel and and David Sachs, who were suddenly vaulted to to really to to the top estchrelons of power. And then you have people like Zuckerberg who kind of saw and Zuckerberg in particular is a guy who lacks a real moral center of his own. So so he kind of shifts with the wind. and and so he was a big liberal when it was fashionable to be that and then Now he's a sort of chain wearing martial arts dude Trump supporter has just kind of shifted his personality. And it's a strange thing to see, but you know, what it looks like is just somebody shifting to whatever supports their business interests and their financial interests and their power And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match they spread. He's reaching for the buuffalo wing. Perfect Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's good for a C of Pepsi too. Inredible What a finish! sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. He just tastes better Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match poetry in motion. And the biggest I was going to say they're not the biggest name I dec sid has Donald Trump, but maybe the biggest influence or the most important sort of this The sun in the center of this universe here is now Elon. He features he actually features very little in the beginning of your story, but in by the end, he is a really significant figure. I just wanted well tell us you your impression of your line, I guess, but Yeah, yeah. well and Elon, you know, he's always been a bit of a weird guy and, you know, a lot of these u people are. I mean Brilliant people in technology often have slightly odd personalities. But Elon We wrote about him back in the indry standard back in the late nineties. He had his first company Zip two, which became part of PayPal. And back then he was a sort of normalish kind of Internet entrepreneur. and even as late as twenty thirteen, I met him when he came to the Reuters' office in And he was he was a kind of a normal sort of modest in his attitude. And he one thing I remember about that actually is we we had a chat thing going on with some writers clients on a chat service that we had and And normally we would sit there and the questions and he would answer and we would type in, but he wanted to take the keyboard himself, which was interesting. That seems prophetic Yeah. and so u That was a perfectly again, perfectly normal meetings, but then over time, you know, he is also someone who really changed in a huge way. and I think that he's been quite a malign influence Uh, certainly in San Francisco. I mean, he he literally destroyed the most important, uh, new internet company in San Francisco in Twitter. He destroyed it for personal ideological reasons U and, you know, it was a big company that had big headquarters in the middle of town and now it's gone U So that was certainly huge negative and then he's been among the the sort of San Francisco basers, there was almost a little bit of an industry that developed around sort of shaming San Francisco as a symbol of dysfunction of progressive cities And a lot of these right wing tech guys were really on that bandwagon and And I think that their attitude is that San Francisco is a very beautiful place It's a wonderful place to live. And so we want to live there. We want we want it for us. And so we want to kind of push out The horror people who makeake a mess and you know, make the city less less attractive U Now this is not to say, I mean, the criticism of the city government and the problems in the streets that got much worse during COVID and homelessness, which people associate with San Francisco, All of those things are real problems. It's not to say those are made up things. and certainly the city government has a lot to answer for and its failure over many years to to address some of these problems. So that so that's all true, but the But the tech moobes have a very different view of what San Francisco ought to be than most of the people who live there. And That view of what San Francisco wants should, you know, what they want San Francisco to be It's kind of like it's a I think they would call it like a sandbox to use the tech term. for what they want for America. I think that's one of the themes that comes through reading You know, we're reading in this book boat radical concepts about freedom and about Libertarianism, but a load of this seems to be that's kind of their agenda and they clearly have somebody in Trump that they believe is helping them along Mhm Yeah, well you saw as an example with the rise of Uber and Airbnb two of the most significant companies in the early twenty ten s. and that was they symbolized the convergence of the tech industry and traditional government functions, right? So now tech companies are really in the business of the city And it was extremely important for those companies to get San Francisco in particular to go along with their agenda because that was the test case as it were for many other places. So other places were to look to San Francisco Like what did they do in San Francisco to regulate these things So it was very important for the companies to have friendly regulations in the city and they largely achieved that under Edley, who was a very tech friendly mayor, who was kind of installed by the powers that be partly in order to be friendly to the tech industry. So they've They've kind of achieved important parts of that agenda, but as you say, they would really like but a situation where First of all, they don't have to pay as much city taxes because the city taxes businesses fairly heavily They would like much, much harsher policies on drugs and homelessness and things like that and they want really just kind of free reign on sort of whatever they want to do technologically, which even though the city has been fairly friendly There are still some limits to that. So that's really the agenda, I think of. And that sounds very similar to the sort of I'm going to give Trump more credit than I suspect he deserves here. but I was going to say the Trump agenda but let's be honest That can change with the wind. It's probably changed while we're talking while we're talking right now, but But they're definitely pushing this nationally Yeah. and one of the one of the funny things about about the Trump agenda and his relationship to the business world is that on the one hand Tber attracted at tech guys in particular attracted to the agenda in in major ways, first of all, just lower taxes, right? That's a big one ant or seeming anti reggulation, right? that's a big one. And then just sort of the cultural attitude, right that we love business people making money is good as opposed to evil billionaires, right? So So they they like the vibe of Trump towards business and they like some of these policies. One of the things that's been amazing to me is that Trump has pursued bunch of policies namely taking stakes in companies like the government having a piece of Intel, for example, the government investing in quantum computing companies and the government really being the heavy hand. Now that's something that Republicans have always objected to vehemently in business community in particular. I mean the idea like if you had floated five years ago, if you had floated the idea of the government like taking stakes in these companies you know, people go crazy. No, the government can't pick winners and losers. That's crazy. Why would you do this? you know, d da, you know. But now that Trump is doing it and he's doing other things they like, suddenly it's like, well, okay, yeah, that's fine. we don't mind, you know. So I think that's a real, you know, there's a real I think a cynical approach to politics on of the part of a lot of the companies You know, they they don't really believe things you know, they just want things that are good for them. Yeah. And part part of the theme that kind of comes through to me on the subject of picking winners and losers is The tech laws really want to pick winners and losers U and you know, I think it's a very strong theme in this book that the losers are kind of the normal people of San Francisco there's an amazing bit bit of a sequence where The streets are suddenly flooded with I think you described them in more profane terms at one point, but the Google buses, the Facebook buses, and it's sort of a metaphor for the tech ls don't care at all. They're like we're going to send buses to pick up all our workers. and Right. And then they try and keep them secret. It's a crazy anecdote. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, and the buses were absolutely you couldn't really get a better metaphor, you know, these for the priority of the tech industry, right? You have these giant Giant luxury coaches, you know, driving around these neighborhoods, picking up selected people and stopping at the city bus stops and the city buses have to wait while the luxury bus picks up the specified workers. So that really was very, very alienating, especially in the most affected neighborhoods in the south of the city or the mission. No Valley and it was kind of ironic because San Francisco is a pretty environmentally conscious place and and so People riding the buses like previously they had been driving their cars. So you'd think that that would be something that people would welcome. just didn't play out that way at all. And and this business, you know, that scene that you're referring to in the book where the companies are like, yeah, we're not going to tell you what our routes are because we don't have to. Yeah know, screw you and and u and s there attitude was remarkable to see, but then the city did really push back on that and eventually was able to kind of come up with some rules that mitigated the tensions a little bit. The dailyase we report all the time on the Trump administration and often We are confronted with, o we're not telling you something And in fact, the answer is on one of their social media. peopleople actually worked out where all these buses were because the Facebook workers were saying on Facebook and I imagine I assume other workers were saying on their social media, o, I'm getting the bus at whatever time. It's kind of an absurd I'm surreal seen Um, that everything's everything's out there. um And you know, one other thing I'll mention about the buses which I think uh illustrates an important point is part of the way that I see the uh sort of takeover of San Francisco, I guess for lack of a better word, but some people think of it as That it was a plot, you know, that that Google had an idea that they they wanted You know, workers live in the city and then they'll send these buses to pick them up and that'll be good because they'll like the city and we won't have to build parking garages in mountain view and But that actually is not at all the way it happened. I mean, it wasn't a plan. It was just some person at Google who kind of was sick of driving her car and there were other people who also drove their cars and were sick of it and was like, we can't we get a bus you know, I mean, that's sort of how it started. And and then it grew organically over time. And I think that that is actually characteristic of the way that the tech force it's a bit of a force of nature, the tech industry, you know, and it doesn't really operate with the kind of intentionality that people sometimes attribute to it. It's just that the the kind of the capitalist forces drive certain things and the buses are kind of an example of that. And peopleople living in the city. I mean, you know, Google got huge. U people wanted to live in the city and so they did and then It made sense to have buses. so there were buses, you know, but this this was kind of a sort of organic development, it wasn't really anyone's plan. We all live in this Trompified tech world But San Francisco is consistently ahead on it. I mean You're the first just as an example, first city in the United States. In fact, I think in the world to have driverless cars going around picking people up and I don't know many people I imagineed watching this will have been to San Francisco and at least have seen them going around, maybe dared to get in them and then going, o, this is really weird. And then you like, o then it it just seems normal, but you're writing this dispatch from the future. Give people some advice, canan you push back on this sort of trumpified tech Lord world? How did San Francisco deal with this takeover by tech Yeah yeah Well, it's u, I mean, it's not an easy thing San Francisco itself is a relatively small city and one of the One of the challenges for any cities and especially a geographically small city is that There's only so much you can do within your borders. So for example One way that San Francisco deals with these issues is to tax the companany. So San Francisco has a lot of business taxes that most cities don't have and And so that seems to make sense, right? The companies are wealthy. There's a lot of impacts on the city. So you tax the companies to mitigate those impacts, and that seems like a fair deal. But the problem is that company can move three miles away and be in a different city that doesn't have those taxes So they're always threatening to do that and that, you know, that kind of ties the company's hands or the city's hands a little bit. But I would say for the most part, threats of companies to move are mostly exaggerated. like those are kind of fear mongering so So for the most part, companies don't move out because of taxes. I mean, it does happen sometimes. It did happen in twenty eighteen but mostly If companies move out, it's you know the costs of doing business in the city are very high for many reasons other than taxes, for one. So So they move out for c cost reasons or they move out for other reasons. The CEO lives out in the suburbs and he'd rather have his office nearby. So U So I do think cities should kind of stand their ground a little bit on the on the blackmail that they that they get from the from the companies and I also think that that people kind of need to be sort of smart and open minded about about what makes sense and what doesn't because There are benefits to technological advances, right? And self driving cars as an example, you know, people are very much of two minds about that. L there are people in San Francisco who hate them. and say, well, you know, why can't we just have taxi drivers drive us around and that's fine. But there are other people who are like, no, this this is awesome and this is going to be the future. Why not have it here first? And driving a taxi is a shitty job anyway? Why do we want to preserve that? you know? So h so there are people who are both suspicious of the tech industry but also kind of inspired by some some of the innovations. So I think partart of the balance to be struck for the cities is that you want to encourage innovation and actually cities themselves need to really innovate a lot more But but need to do that in kind of a smart way that doesn't just kind of give companyies carte blanche to do things that may or may not be in the city's interest The Strokes Live at Flushing Meadows Corona Park in Queens, New York on Friday october second with Beach House, TV on the radio and fuckers. Tickets on sale now at nYc. thestrokes. com Let's talk about the other half of this. We've talked about the tech Lords A city is a big bundle of different interests and different people and the other big Big names, big characters right here in San Francisco are, as I said, at the top, some of the most powerful politicians in the country First of all, why why is San Francisco such a furnace that is churning out. powerful figures because the We are sitting here, I'm sitting here in New York. Well I suppose we've got a president. He technically is a Floridian currently got the Senate minority leader. but It's actually there's actually not that many big powerful politicians in recent years who come from New York San Francisco. You know classed everywhere unless it seems. I think there are two main answers to that. So the The first is that there's a particular dynamic in California where San Francisco, even though it's No longer the biggest city. It hasn't been the biggest city in a long time. But it's always been the kind of the business capital and the political capital of California until the twentieth century it was by far the most important city and it kind of retained the title of business capital and political capital in some ways. And so As a consequence, if you are If you are an elected mayor of San Francisco, for example, you are immediately in the conversation about being goovernor of California And if you're governor of California, you're immediately in the conversation about being president of the United States. You can actually see a direct line. from San Francisco Board of suupervisors to the White House, right? And so that is not present in most cities. So so as a consequence of that, you know, people see that, right? That's an incentive thing. And so it's like, oh, okay, well San Francisco Politics has like big prizes attached to it, potentially. So Uh so so therefore it's it's long been very, very competitive political arena and then that kind of competition can kind of create more highly trained players, as it were. then The second big phenomenon is that there was a handful of exceptionally talented politicians. The main one over in recent decades has been Willie Brown, but there was what was known as the Brown Burton machine for Phil and John Burton, who were brothers and then Willie Brown Now Willie Brown is perhaps, you know, one of the greatest politicians in American history, you know, up from his bootstrap, you know, was a poor kid in a segregated town in Texas. and worked his way up. and he was a state assembly speaker for many years, most powerful figure in the state in a lot of ways. And then late in his career after California passed term limits kind of basasically because people were tired of Willie as assembly speaker And so then he ran and won as mayor of San Fancisco in nineteen ninety five Now from ninety five until twenty twenty four. eachach of the mayors was picked. So there was Willie and then Willie picked Gavin Newsom And then when Gavin went to Sacramento, Willie picked Edley. and then when Edleee died, Willie picked London Breed. So so the the city has been run by the Willie I call I call it the city family. That's a term that Williamself willill Williamself coined actually. So so it's kind of this system. It's it's sort of a machine a little bit different than that and you know, built on these, you know, very long term relationships and includes includes the unions, includes the civil servants, includes really politicians on all parts of the spectrum in some ways And um And so that system that Willie built was very kind of sophisticated. and Willie himself was a tremendous talent spotter Uh, so he he and the Burton brothers, you know, they they they they pick these people, you know, they pick Nancy Nancy Posi has the seat that was held by by Phil Burton. So she was picked as like, you are the one that's You're to kind carry on this legacy. You know, Barbara Boxer was an obscure U Marin County supervisor was was picked to be first a conressman and then and then a U. S. Senator Uh so So the brown machine was u had a lot of talent. they had figured out a lot of things about how to win elections and they were extremely effective. and so a number of politicians came up through that system with a lot of skills and a lot of financial backing. Well let's talk about winning elections because the name you mentioned there, Gavin Nsom is a man who quite clearly wants to win well, two elections. He wants to win a Democratic primary and then he wants to get into the White House. C he do it? I have long been very skeptical about Gavin Newsom's chance of being elected president just because I think it's very tough for a San Francisco liiberal to be elected president. but Um And Gavin has flaws, which I point out in the book. I mean, I think he's a great idea guy, an ide volcano as one person called him But he's not very good on the follow through And he's not really very good at kind of building a team that can can really, you know, get the hard things done So I'm critical of Gavin in that regard. However, He's an extraordinarily talented politician h he's he's he's an excellent communicator. He has very good instincts about where to go at any given moment and As an example of that, the redistricting ballot measure that passed earlier in the year. and when Gavin ramped that thing up in response to Trump pushing their redistricting in the Red States Uh, When Gavin first said, okay, we're going to do this, and there was a lot of skepticism, a lot of pushback. California was very proud of its nonpartisan districting system people like Arnold Schwarzegger were very opposed. And so at first it looked a little bit like h, past might not But then Gavin Gavin leaned into it and made a great case for it and it won very easily. So So I think he's someone who can't really be can can't be underestimated. I mean, I think he has a lot of liabilities as going into the presidential race, but I Unlike my view has really shifted a little bit from a year ago. A year ago, I would have said no chance Now I think a chance. You talk about liabilities. You've got an epic bit of gossip in here about Gavin Newsam's first wife to remind people who are watching Gavin Nsom is now a happily married father of four to Jennifer Sebel Newsom, who's the first partner of California Previously he was married to Kimberly Gilfoyle. She is as trumpy a figure as you can possibly imagine She is now the ammbassador to Greece. She was He was engaged to Donald Trump Jr. And I thought I could learn nothing new about Kimberly Gillfile Uh but Page one hundred and seven You in fact reveal Kimberly Gill file was a bespectacled former underwear model who loves animals Pride yourself on hard work and her track record in the courtroom I had no idea she'd an underwear model. This is a bombshell Yeah, well, that was that was a classic, that was a magnificent quote from a chronicle profile of Kimberly Guilfoyle. She has buried this She had gotten prominence. She had got a little bit famous because she was the prosecutor prosecuting a dog mauling case. It a terrible situation where the two dogs had killed somebody. But she came she was animulute, know, And so people, the media kind of was like, o, who's this Kimberly Guilfoyle? And that was what the Kron came up with. But you know, she was also the daughter of a political power player in his own right and u Yeah, it's a kind of a strange story because obviously when Gavin married her, she was not a trumpian figure, particularly And it's not obvious what caused her to I mean, she was ambitious as a media person and so she got a job. she was offered a job with Fox News in New York and she went to do that job. I think that being at Fox News kind of made her a much more right wing person But you know,'s there's a notorious picture. I thought you were going to show the notorious picture of him at. C I thinkab it and Kimberly Guilfoyle on the on the carpet in the Getty mansion And you people will see a lot of that picture if he does. I was about to mention the picture, but I have a big warning on the picture. We can't afford to show it on YouTube. It is very expensive to reproduce And we are we are independent media. are we carefully count every one of our pennies so that we can produce these shows I would just say to people I rarely say to people go and Google, it's worth it. This one is worth it. Google, Gavin Nsome, Heirst mansion, I believe. carpet or the Kimberly Go f bit. Yes. Yeah, yeah. you'll find it. yeah Yeah, it was quite a quite a notorious picture. You know, they they had their moment as the glam power couple of San Francisco and I leaned into that with that Can I I'm sure he greatly regrets. Can I just say that our producers are both googling that image and giggling in front of me? So I invite everybody to do the same But the big question is is she is this a liability for Gavin Newsom? Is she a liability you talk about in once turning up for an event inebriated There's a notorious scandal of an affair with a c with, you know, with a coworker's wife There's a nineteen year old girlfriend when he's in his mid thirties Is this all going to be bad for him? or does it all matter Well, I think they're start leaving aside Kimberly Gilfoy for a second. and so just talk about the scandals. I think the scandals at one time would have been very damaging. but now You know, it's hard to It's hard to outscandal Trump I mean, so Nothing that Gavin has done is nearly as bad as many things that Trump has done. So So therefore, like I think those issues are not issues in the way that they were. weirdly and this might have been a San Francisco thing, but it really those scandals ed right before he was up for reelection. and it didn't hurt him at all in San Francisco. So I don't think the scandals are too big of a problem assuming that there aren't like others that we don't know about, but I mean, the things that are known about think will hurt him. There is an issue. I mean, something that sticks in my crawl a little bit and I think some people will react this way is you sort of say, well, Gee, like it calls into question his judgment a little bit to have been married to Kimberly Guilfoyle. So you know, that's a you know, it's hard to, you know, it's hard to judge people in love. You don't really want to do that on one level. but It also, you know, you kind of look at us like, really, Gavin? I mean in perhaps in Newsom's defense San Francisco was the first city where love meant love he may have taken things too far there. Ryan Reynolds here from MintM moobile, with a message for everyone paying Big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just fifteen dollars a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile d. com slash switch Upfront payment of forty five dollars for three month plan equival to fifteen dollars per month required, intro rate for three months only, then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra. Sfful turns at mintMobile. comot' was the next big figure that's worth talking about Is Camela Harris? And of all the figures in this, of all the characters that come from San Francisco in your book, She literally is the one that has gone the farthest. In some ways, of course, Nancy Posey is a far more powerful politician, having been speaker. She's probably the most powerful speaker since probably Rayburn, maybe others be maybe even further back, but be the first female Black, the first Indian American president Camela Haris is going farther than anyone else You obviously saw her close up for many, many years. What do you think her prospects are now? I think that she hast reasonable chance of of being the nominee again, I wouldn't I don't think it's likely, but I think it's possible. I mean, usually you don't get two shots at these things. so People say, well, you lost, so we're gonna no We know for forty fifth and forty.' the resident, so yeah But the way that she lost and you can say, well, she didn't really have a fair shot at it because she only had three months. So So I think it's possible that that that she'll be able to come back. I mean, she is a brilliant political tactician. That's my analysis of Kamala and the fact that she rose to be vice president, I mean, you don't, that doesn't happen if you are not a hell of a politician And and she she's very good at winning elections she lost the presidential election, but if you look at what was stacked against her could say, I mean, I have my criticisms about how she ran the campaign. But if you look at what was stacked against her She didn't necessarily do that badly. So so she's very talented politician and really I mean, a literal protege, she was Willie's girlfriend, But even beyond that, she's a protege of the machine and has kind of learned the blocking and tackling that that machine really knows how to do, how to count votes, how to build coalitions. And so she's very good at that part of politics which is a huge part of politics. what she's not so good at and the reason that I think one of the reasons that she lost and her big weakness really is that she It's hard to tell what she really stands for. She She doesn't kind of convey a strong belief system about where she's taking the world. She's very she's very cautious in her policies and she tends to zig and zag, you know, try to please everyone. That was very apparent when she was distr district attorney in San Francisco. where she was against the death penalty, but then there was a terrible cop killing and then maybe she was for it, but maybe she was against it, you know. So she was kind of triangulating crime, but for criminal justice reform, but also tough on a crime, you know, So kind of zigzagging, you know, so that kind of indistinct identity, That's a real liability for We can't rule out, as you say She's she is an incredibly skilled tactical politician We can't rule out the possibility of A Gavin News some Camela Harris primary What do you think would happen Well, it's going to be fascinating. I mean, I think they both are going to be candidates in what is going to be a very crowded primary field. And u It'll be interesting. I suspect that they will try not to focus too much on each other. Um and more more focus on others, but it'll be really interesting to see how to see how that unfolds. I mean, they they've been kind of rivals U They pretend to be friendly and I don't really know what their personal relationship is, but they're certainly rivals and could be quite interesting if they're really going going head to head Let's just talk a couple of the other one of the other big names, which I just mentioned, obviously, Nancy Pelosi I'm See isn't actually obviously she's not a huge character in this book because she's always in DC B she seems to have learned lessons from this this city And she certainly, this is one of the things I think is really significant. the amount of money in San Francisco. is one of the things that clearly propels that forward Is San Francisco going to produce another politician soon that's got that sort of that sort of ability to claim the runs of power perhaps much more discreetly than Gavin Newsom and Camela Harris. Well that, you know, that's a good question. I mean, Willy Brown when I spoke to him for the book, you know, he's kind of critical of the current class of politicians thinks the talent level is kind of not what it was U if you look at the current I mean, if you even look at the recent Democratic guubernatorial primary If you look at some of the newer figures on the scene in San Francisco you're not immediately inspired to like, okay, here, here are future presidential candidates. So I don't I don't really know if the if the system or if San Francisco can continue to produce that that level of talent. You know, you mentioned the money and one important factor in all of this was the the Getty family in particular. So they were Back in the day they were the richest family in the country. they would go back thirty years. And the Gettyies are very implanted in San Francisco and they and there's this whole social circle of old money wealth that kind of revolves around them. And they have been very active political deemocratic political donors for a long time. and they they played a huge role in Gavin Newsom's career played a huge role Nancy Pelosi's career. you know, they were friends with these people from way back. And so once somebody like Pelosi got to a certain point. could they could count on major financial backing from the Gettyies and the people around the Geties. So that was also a big advantage for some of these San Fancisco pololiticos. Now I do think that there are You know, whether the Geties will continue to play that role, probably not. but just because old and tied and you know, Gordon's very old. but there are many other moguls now, you know, there's a lot of wealth in the city. So I don't think that money is going to be an issue if there's a real star out there, but it's not obvious who that star might be time You know, Nancy Pelosi played things very oddly, I thought at the end of her term. She waited too long to retire.. seem U, you know, she's very old. she's very rich She's really lost touch, I think, like many rich people have. She's opposed congressional ban on stock trading because Hand Right And she gets a lot of criticism for that, rightly so. and u And then I don't know what she was doing at the end here, but she, you know, in the race to succeed her. So she played Ki for a long time that made it very hard for successors to know how to position themselves and then Um, And then there was a primary and then just at the very end of the primary, she endorsed Connie Chan, who's a progressive Nimbie a member of the board of suupervisors and, uh I found it an odd, very odd endorsement, oddly timed and I don't really know what that was all about. And also you also covered the tragedy of Dianne Feinstein, of course Yeah, and yeah, and that was a very, very It was both a sad situation and a very infuriating situation, honestly, because it was another example of where a politician just because of you know, her own ego and disconnect from the realities of the world you know thought it was a good idea to run for Senate when she was eighty six years old for a six year term. And I thought that was a disgraceful decision And, um, And it's and it certainly played out that way. And I think that kind of thing that was very damaging to the to the party And u and you know, Nancy Pelosi did the same thing. you know, so we, you know, we had just had a situation where partarty suffered a catastrophic defeat because people were too old And then and then the other party leaders who were too old somehow couldn't take that less One of the other things that's happening in California right now is there is of course a gober notorial race. On the one hand, you have Xaviir Bisera who is an incredibly honestly low profile Democrat And in the other you have Steve Hilton, who hails like me from the United Kingdom kind of bizarrely A bizarre tech figure married to one of the most powerful PRs in the tech world, a Fox news occasional Fox News host an eccentric advis to British Prime Minister The thing that I think is relevant to San Francisco here is It's the first time in many, many years San Francisco isn't in this conversation. Yeah, well, I think was it was kind of weird the way the gubernatorial primary played out and it's funny because People had kind of thought Kamala Harris would run for governor Um A lot of people, including me were not necessarily that enthusiastic about that prospect. although in hindsight, maybe it would have been been better alternative. but Yeah, so Bachure is a very, u u As you say, low profile figure, he gets very poor reviews from people in the Biden administration over his performan as HHS secretary. You know, he's a kind of a generic San Francisco or generic California Democrat without very conventional views without much profilile. So he's not really that great of a candidate Bye But The ani Trump sentiment in California is very, very strong and I think it's very, very unlikely that Steve Hilton can make a serious contest out of it I mean, if a different candidate if a different candidate than him, I mean might, you know, I wasn't I'm not sure why Rick Carusso the Los Angeles businessman was talking about running for governor. likeike if he had run, I think he would have been a much more formidable candidate actually But the deemocratic lean in the state is so strong that it takes a really good candidate on the other side to win. Coming back to San Francisco, one of the One of the the sayings about this nation, but particularly about San Francisco is that America only has three cities New York, New Orleans, San Francisco And the rest of it from Tennessee Williams is slightly cruel, so Ill apologize in advance to anybody who wants to hear the rest of it If you're from the Midwest, close your eelars for a second Everything else is Cleveland. and I have hugeffection personally for Cleveland, so I'm sorry about that. but was fascinating about sittitying on the edge Jonathan is It really is on the edge. It's like on the edge of the future. You've get you've got this, you can, you can see what's going to happen. thoseose those dririverless cars are going to come to our streets. Those Ubers have come to our streets. Those Airbnb's have gone up have gone into apartments beside us People are liivving on AI models in San Francisco way more than they are in the rest of the country Coin is bigger, crypt is bigger Just give us a prediction. What does San Francisco right know tell us about what's going to happen next in the United States Well, certainly the The AI impacts are very, very significant. and we're starting some of the most significant early impacts actually come in the tech industry. So So in the traditional software businesses that have were really central to the big booms of the twenty ten s those companies are all cutting back employees very quickly. So Uh, so the AI is coming for the jobs, right? That's a bit of a cliche, but it's coming first for the tech jobs. So that's that's ironic, but true. So that's something that people should keep in mind And then I think you know, these these issues around, um you know, how should the city manage the relationship with its businesses? you know, you know, these are these are kind of perenial problems, but I think I think there are a few lessons that San Francisco can offer some other cities. And one of them is that For the city government, like don't lose sight of the basics because I think the city got itself in a lot of trouble. The government really create a lot of problems by losing control of basic stuff, you know, basic street safety , you know, car break ins, they sound trivial, but It really is innervating after a while that you can't you can't park your car on the street without it getting broken into. This was almost a joke about San Francis. You you call it the city of I believe it's the Bip from the noise. Yeah, B ye bipping they called it because of the noise that the tools make, you know? And so that's a kind of a problem that's not That hard to saudi, but A bunch of surveillance cameras and other things. So So I think that A lesson is like if the government loses control of very, very basic issues of street cleanliness and street safety, like then the government loses credibility and that creates all kinds of problems. So I think a lot of the attension in the city you know kind of in most recent years, you know, kind of spring from that. So I think that that's one lesson. A secondcond lesson would be that the managing this issue of kind of where the company is going to be and what kind of incentives are appropriate or not and what kind of tax levels are appropriate or not. and I think that u I mean, it depends on the city, but certainly attractive cities like San Francisco if they have I downtowns that at least potentially can be attractive. They can they can actually drive a harder bargain than they than they think because the A the companies are first of all, very influenced by what their employees want and their employees oftentimes want to be in the city rather than be out in the burbs somewhere U And and secondly, you know, there are there there are a lot of benefits potentially if the city is nice to being being in the city. So So I think cities kind of have more assets than they appreciate sometimes and can push a little harder on something like that. I've got to say, there are few more beautiful cities than San Francisco. and I say that with great affection from New York. It's a beautiful summer dayays here I I love this city, but whenever you go as a visitor obviously I'm somebody who has not lived in San Francco, but And whenever you go as a visitor, it is a beautiful city. I'm It's it's amazing that inside this beauty we all go when we go as tourists you're like, Oh, it's the Golden Gate Bridge It's you know it's the water, it's alcatrzed, but There's this Incredible fulcrum of the future hat Mhm Yeah, well, it's it's yeah, the physical beauty of the of the placeays can't really be underestimated as a as a kind of part of its power. you know, it's really just kind of mesmerizing in its beauty in a lot of ways. And so And so that's part of what creates so much attachment to it, right why people kind of care so much about the about the future of this kind of gorgeous magical place. And then of course, on top of that, it's got this kind of exceptional culture of being the place where people go to do new things, to create, to innovate, to be free, to think different the old Apple ad cliche, you know, So u so it's got, you know, it's got those those very special dimensions to it. and and therefore, you know, in that kind of it's a double edged sword because It's what makes city great. It also is what puts a lot more pressure on everything because First of all, people have a lot a lot of people care about what the city does or doesn't do. so there's pressures in that way. A lot of people want to live there because it's such a beautiful place, makes it very expensive. And then of course the the culture that I was referring to of kind of free willing experimental, experimental and try new things and that because that culture has kind of been so successful in the context of the tech industry and it's produced this tremendous amount of wealth h, that's made the city very, very expensive and so that kind of creates a lot of att. I notice you did not say the tech clds want to make it great again. It's already great It's it's a great city. one of the you know, even in the worst of times, right? even in the worst of the of the the doom loop days in twenty twenty two U A lot of the problem, most of the problems in the city were confined to the center city area. and there were a lot of neighborhoods that just fine and still very beautiful. And if you're walking across the Golden Gate Bridge, you would never really know about most of these problems. so in some ways, the public perception of of the disaster that is San Francisco was was quite exaggerated, I think. So so then people go there, you know, and now things are a little bit better. and so now people go there and they're like, Ohh my God, the city iss fantastic. Well, Johny Weber, the book is the city is fantastic. The book City on the Edge is fantastic as well. If you can't visit San Francisco, you should buy the book, but you should probably visit San Francisco as well, I think, right M And and if you visited San Francisco or you lived in San Francisco and you want to kind of understand the city and how it got to where it is right now, I think the book provides some insight there. Johns Web, thank you so much for joining us. Apologies to the people of Cleveland. But a big prop to you as an author is I'd say, highly recommended book Thank you for joining us. And I should say one final note, It is recommended by Michael Wolf co host of insside Trump's head and I will just say from personal experience, it's very hard to get Praise from Michael Wolf. He is extremely demanding taskmaster. and He calls your book a riveting tail which has turned San Francisco into an unforgettable character get finer ones than that Joant we. V very bad. Thank you for join us. of Michael, Yes. Yes All right, well, thank you very, you. it's been a pleasure It was a fascinating gossip filled dispatch from the American Future. There's even tips from Jonathan Weber and what you should do when Trumpy tech loords come to your town in their self driving cars. Joanna would be back tomorrow with the unmissable David Rothkoff on the Daily Bes podcast. Thank you to all our subscribers. If you are not a subscriber, smash that button down It helps us to reach more people with great guests like Jonathan Weber. And finally, thank you to our brilliant production team Brian Marray, John Romero el Passor, Heather Varo and Nil Rosenhouse. So the good news is we have so many be Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and All Birds continue to trust and use them With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your one dollar per month trial at shhopify. com slash special offer. 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