The Reality of Military Service

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Get long lasting battery life on the Dell XPS laptop powered by Series three Intel C so you can work from anywhere And now starting at six hundred and ninety nine dollars for the exclusive student pricing, starting at five doll ninety nine cents It's lightweight, portable, and packed with enough processing power to make multitasking a breeze So say goodbye to distractions and hello to more free time because you finished your work faster Complete your setup with savings on select monitors and more must have electronics and accessories Limited time deals and free shipping on PCs and more await you at dell d. com slash deals. That's dell d. com slash deals Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast. designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice and wisdom into the real world It's Ryan. welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. There's an old joke on the internet that says every day there's a trending topic on Twitter. And your goal is to never be that topic. Right? You might thinkink you want everyone to be talking about you. you might I think you want the whole eyes of the world on you But if they are, it's almost certainly because somethingomet really bad. has happened. or in some huge way or Things are about to get real bad, real fast Imagine going to sleep and you wake up trending nationwide. But it's because everyone thinks you're dead People are total strangers or posting your photo, they're tying you to this tragedy, they're politicizing you and your identity. They're telling stories and lies about you that aren't true They're incredibly angry. Imagine it's so extreme so crazy that you have to record a proof of life video. just to make sure the world knows you're still alive and in the process tri desperately defend your name. and that actually happened to the person that I talking to Joe Ellis is a Black Hawk helicopter pilot She was in the Virginia Army National Guard for many, many years. when she was suddenly, falsely accused in January of twenty twenty five. being responsible when that tragic terrible airliner crash happened over Washington, DC, right? A Black Hawk helicopter crashed into a commercial airliner over DC and sixty seven people lost their lives And shortly after this happened Ellis, who is transgender, was accused of being that She was accused of this for no other reason than bigotry and sort of rage profiteering. peopleeople wanted to somehow take this tragedy and lay it at the feet of a minority. and then specifically the feed of a personerson, veteran hard working member of our arrmed force. they wanted to put it on that person Internet points to Pve a point, I don't know. But anywways, this rumor spreads all over the internet. She becomes this trending topic. She starts getting hate messages and death threats. Imagine you get death threats. after you are falsely accused of being There's a whole bunch more of the story as we're gonna to get into the episode. it's not really about this current event. it's about this incredible and fascinating woman who was also forced out of the armed forces as a result of what happened. But that's only a facet of this fascinating life. she sort of goes into hiding, handles a bunch of stuff in her personal life, but then re emerges as a stand up comic. Lo and behold, it turns out She's hilarious if you saw her on Kill Tony. My int is getting long, so I won't play it, but it was really, really funny. and you should definitely check it out. I'll link to it in today's show notes. So in this episode, Joe and I are talking about this crazy experience. I was fascinated to ask her a bunch of questions about sear training let's survive Evade Resist. which is the training that Stockdale went through, which I'm writing in my book right now, what it means to come to your breaking point, how you come to a realization about your identity. We talk about our experience being a trans person, being a trans person in the military. What happens when you're private life becomes a public debate and what service means when you are suddenly a headline I think you're going really like this episode. You can follow her on Instagram at Joe Ellis. Really go see her perform stand upp Enjoy this episode and follow Joe. She's a fascinating person to be tracking So did you always want to be a helicopter pilot Yes, I wanted to be a pilot. I wasn't sure about helicopters, but definitely when I was little looking up at the sky, seeing planes fly over very much wanted to be involved in flight. What took you to helicopters then Down. Oh the film So the Ridley Scott film was just Not that I wanted to crash them, but you know, ye that's the opposite But just seeing them and seeing that movie and that came out around the same time that I was like thirteen. So like it was kind of like that formative years of just like, I want to be a part of something greater and I want to fly and Those machines just looked incredible And so you started as a mechanic, though, right? I did, I did. Yeah. so I started as a helicopter mechanic My recruiter told me that's the best way to become a pilot is to learn everything about the helicopter Not not sure if that was entirely accurate. Yeah I was gonna say that sounds like something you would tell like an eighteen year old who doesn't know anything because you're trying to meet a recruiting quota. For sure. I mean, it's definitely easier to recruit someone as a mechanic enlisted than it is to recruit them straight into flight. But there was a pathway to go straight to flight. I just didn't know it, but it worked out for the best because I did get a good understanding of the helicopter and a lot of experiences and I ended up getting rejected from apppplying for flight school, I think I applied three times, got rejected twice. so the third time is when they finally accepted me. When you were in high school, did you always plan to join the military? Was that like your career path? Was that common in your family or? It was like definitely in my mind. like service you is in my blood and my great uncle fought in the Battle of the Bulge and my grandfather was in the Navy during World War two My cousin is Admiral Jim Ellis who is now at the Hoover Institution. So like huge line of history and just always wanted to serve, but wasn't sure how. Yeah. My brother served in Iraq zero three as a tank driver, he was active duty and So that kind of taught me like, o, I don't think I want tona be active duty. I don't know if I want to do that all the time And so that's when the National Guard came up as an option and I was nineteen years old. And you know, struggling to pay for college and always wanted to serve and just driving down interterstate sixty four, seeing bllackhawks fly over me and just like, yeah, I think I want to do that. Like I want to fly. I want to be a part of something greater. It all just kind of hit at the same time and So what did becoming a mechanic look like? What was that path? So I was like fifteen weeks at Fort Eustace in Newport News, Virginia and learning just how to work on them. So I started as a structural mechanic, learning how to like shoot rivets and bend metal and make fabricate parts and patch holes Things like that, lots of composites and stuff And as soon as I got out of school I immediately got deployed with my unit to Iraq. Yeah. And They asked for volunteers to be door gunners. Right. So I was like, sure, I'll do that. because that'll put me in the air exciting. Yeah. It'll put me in the aircra that's closer to the front seat. Right. Right. So my whole idea is like how can I get closer I mean, nineteen twenty year old doesn't want to operate a machine gun out of a helicopter while it flies, you know? So that's what I did. And that was a blast and u you know, flying eight hour days, you know, just over the desert doing that whole life But you're doing two jobs in the same. Yeah. so would one day I would fly, the next day I would work on helicopters in the hangars and then the next day I might be on the flight schedule again, I would fly So kind of leading to two different jobs at the same time. And you're probably just starting to know this machine like inside and out. Inside and out, yeah same time. And in the meantime, I'm still maintaining a civilian career because your're guard, right. You're part time. so I fell into and just started doing like technical support like help desk and climbing that ladder too. I originally wanted to be a video game designer, but yeah So I went to ITT teech, which sny because that school doesn't exist anymore. I remember all the commcials as a kid. Yeah, yeah. and they're like video game design degree and I'm like, yeah, so I learned a lot about like Adobe creative suite and just like graphic design type stuff. out of that pretty quickly just because it wasn't going to jump me into like a paying career, but tech support did. So Here I am fixing computers one day, the next day I'm flying in a helicopter, and then the next day I'm repairing helicopters. And then what's the path to actually getting to fly So the path to flight is you have to put together a flight packet, which is like a huge application process. You have to get recommendations from people and then submit that to the military and then you sit for a board and they interview you and then if they give you the blessing, then you get to move on to flight school. So I did that twice got rejected two times. end up going for another military specialty, which is like another specialty on the Blackhawk, learning that job. and made it to Staff Sergeant, which is an E six and I was like around twelve years of service. I was like, you know what, I think I'm going to get out. Like I never made it to flight. didn't I think it was going to be in the cards for me. and then on a whim, I decided to throw my packet together one more time, submit it they accepted me so I was like, oh, I guess I'm I'm stay in this for a long term and we're going to go to flight school and That's eighteen months of training Yeah in lower Alabama at Fort Rucker And that involves wararrant officer school, which is kind of like basic training again, but also with college level courses So like a lot of military history courses, things like that, military writing And then once you do that, you move on to SR training, which is a very brutal three weeks of training And then after that, you go to primary flight training. So once you do all that, then you can actually start flying the helicopters and you start out in a smaller aircraft The Lakota, which is a UH seventy two Eururoopter frame And then you move on to your what they call go to war aircraft, which for me, because I was guard, I already knew what I was going fly. There was no like selection process for that. I just knew I was going gonna fly bllackhawks because Virginia only has bllackhawks. so that's the only thing I can fly And so then I went to Blackhawk course and then finished that. So's about eighteen months later, I was a pilot And this was like around thirty one years old, thirty two years old. How many hours do you think you have in a black hog Not a whole lot because I finished flight school in twenty twenty two And then I flew for about a year with my unit. So I've got about three hundred hours total as a pilot About a hundred as a crew member Yeah four And then Oh right, because you your National Guards, you're not in it every day. Yeah. one hundred hours a year is typical. Yeah for even for active duty, like one hundred hours a year, you know is like your standard minimums for It's not like you can just have one at home that you pr. They don't let me take it home.fortunately But yeah, so unfortunately it was cut short because of the military ban and everything. And so so like, yeah fly anymore. I've been actually reading a bunch about Sear training. It's fascinating because Stock, I'm writing about Stockdale and he obviously. not just went through. it was like a formative experience in his life But it sounds like it was re. Oh, it's yeah. Yeah, I don't know how much you dug into my story, but what SR training was a huge part of. Tell people what it is, because I don't think most people know. Yeah, so it's sururvive evade, resist, escape Yeah and It's a classified school Well, parts of the school is classified. so there's only certain things I can discuss. but like there's a lot of classroom, there's a lot of how to make a shelter, like Boy Scout type stuff. Yeah whichich is all unclassified, which is like what you would do if you crashed in Yeah. if you crash, like how you going get water? How are you going to get make sure it's drinkable? likeike what kind of plants can you eat? L very basic type stuff that goodood to know. But then there's other aspects of it too. There's like a POW aspect of it and learning how to resist when you're in capture and And then of course, some of the more dangerous parts can be the escape part or the rescue,? And so it's learning how to, if you're gonna to escape, how you gonna do that? And then if you're gonna be rescued, like how do you not get shot during the rescue process like as things are going down So Good stuff. Like really good stuff. I would never want to do that school again. But it was Probably the best school ever That's also where I had my epiphany that I was suffering from gender dysphoria point in that training and you are placed in like sensory deprivation. put in a box, right? Yeah, a box. Yeah. It's more like a closet. So ironically, it's like I came out of the closet in the closet. Yeah. But no, it's like you can like do like this, you know, like there's enough room to like squat and move around. but anyway, you're in there. It's probably to what mimic like being in an isolation In a cell cell In a cell. Yeah And say you're in there Eightish hours, twelve hours, you're not sure, you know, you know, you're standing up most of the time They're blasting Yokoono over the speaker, which is its own form of torture, you know like, But they're trying to break you, right In a way, like I don't know exactly what they're trying to do, but or mimic what someone who's trying to break you would so you can be familiar with that if that were to ever happen. So stress inoculation training is another way they define it. And there's psychologists like blended into the role play watching, you know, like it's very controlled so they're not like just messing with people Yeah But it has to be one of the most interesting points of data the Army has is everyone who goes through the school and what kind of data they might gather from that, right? Right But yeah, so I was in there and like I I think what had happened, my best way to describe it is you're very tired and very hungry by the time you get to this process You know, and so once you're in there, it's like You have no deffense mechanisms mentally, physically, likere you're kind of just t Yeah And I think it took that much to be in a position where I wouldn't just push this away or or say what it wasn't justify that it couldn't be me, that I couldn't really be having these these things and I describe it like like an old you know, slid show, like just Images like flipping through, zipping through of all these things in my life of gender dysphoria and just like running from it and in all of those things and it just it's where I had my epiphany they' like, oh, that's what this thing has been this whole time, my whole life that I've been like struggling with that I didn't want to I didn't want to name it, I didn't want to face it and I wasn't even sure what it was because I grew up in in an environment where you know, very conservative Christian. so it's like I didn't even have language around it. I didn't know what gender dysphoria was at the time So I guess they broke me in a different way. Well, I was going to ask you that. I have a bunch of questions about this because I've been thinking a lot about it, But like I guess that would be one sort of ical read on it was would be like The training was traumatic and it caused some sort of break in some way and's. training is supposed to reveal. Do you know what I mean? Like did you consider like, hey, maybe I didn't discover something about myself. somethingomething went sideways. I did think that at first because when I got out of the training and you eat a nice meal, like I went to Chick Fil afterwards. That's where I went. You can't deny the Lord's chicken, you know. So I went to Chick Fil A and just like had a milkshake and chicken nuggets and just like sat with it and I was like, you know, that was just some crazy episode, you know, because I was also like in the woods at one point before getting into the PWV situation like You're so tired that you can start hallucinating, right? Because it's dark and there's shadows and it was raining and lightning one night and I was just like, did I just see somebody You know, there's all these jokes about, oh, when you're in Syer, you'll see like, you know, the ghosts of the forest and like all these things. And so I was trying to once again onnce I had kind of come to my senses trying to chalk it up to this thing that B And a few weeks went by and it was still festering. And so I went for the first time I went to see a therapist about it and I said, Hey, look, this is This thing that happened, but then here's all these things that thought of during that time that like feels like True Yeah. And they said, yeah, that's gender dysphoria. And I was like Really And like yeah I've'm I'm successful. like I've done this I've done a doctor, right? This is notot VA. This is private. Yeah. So u As pilots, you learn not to do certain things. Medically, you know when you're just asking certain questions then you're not quite sure because of the impact it can have on your flight physical. And so since this wasn't like a formal diagnosis or anything, this was just like a counseling session But that's where I kind of started exploring it And then once I realized that's what I was, because I was in the middle of flight school, I was like, well, I definitely can't get a formal diagnosis right now. I can't go get it treated because then I'll be pulled from training immediately And I don't even know if this is Re what it is. I still hadn't really accepted it And then I told my wife immediately after and Yeah, it was it was rough Yeah. I still managed to get like nineties and above on my flighty valves and graduate. know, I was really good at compartmentalizing and Fight training is so demanding of you entirely that It was actually a break. I would go to class or I'd go and fly with my instructor and I couldn't think about anything else but that that was kind of a way to manage processing it So are you actually alone in the like you're you're obviously alone in the box, but whenn't what I was reading about person I was researching is that them in the box and then're sort of like shouting things at them while they're in the box. like because they're trying to help you sort of learn how So he remembered they were shouting like get your head out of the box over and over again. What he took that to mean is like, you have to sort of physically be there, but mentally you can be wherever you want. And so like one of the ways they'd worked him through dealing with the long hours of being, you know, in isolation was like to go on these sort of mental journeys and they they had him like like walk your celic, pretend you're you know eight years old and you're walking to elementary school. And like you would go on this sort of mental journey It sounds like you went on quite a mental journey. I went on a ride, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I've heard people say psychedelics are similar, like the type of state I was in. Yeah. because it wasn't scary. like ye having that epiphany. it was like puzzles were clicking. Like it was just like, o, like How should that make sense, but at What were the pieces that you're thinking about? because I do think people think that we have epiphanies in life and it's like you just get struck by lightning. Yeah white. Be what it usually is and this is also, I think people think like scientific discovery is again, like lightning striking. What it usually is is you've had all these pieces for a long time you just didn't know what they meant or how they fit together. And then the epiphany or the moment is where suddenly you see it or you see a glimpse of what it is and then you know the work you have to do to put the pieces together. Right. It's like you take a bunch of clues and you scatter them and then reassemble them, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, now it all makes sense. R. Like I guess old like mysteries, you know. And so yeah, that's basically what it is, like the pieces where dressing up in my sister's clothes at five years old or being very envious of women and not realizing conffusing it with attraction. So attraction and envy is sometimes very similar. And so it's not understanding that But then also like all throughout the years like, you know, just haaving these moments where trying to blend in with whatever I thought I was supposed to be as a man and trying to emulate that and realizing like even other people could see it wasn't authentic And it would come off as like, o, you're being awkward or o, you're this or that. and or being accused of being gay, even though I never was interested in men. So it's like people were seeing something that I wasn't seeing Right, right. And then also internally having this these these feelings that like, oh, but The only example I know of that is like Buffalo Bill and sign on into the Lambs or like these terrible depictions Well I'm not that. so it can't be this. And then of course My moral compass was very much based in scripture, which is These are sinful terrible things that you're thinking of or wishing to be or even though that's not actually in the scripture. Sure. Right whatever the people then acc version to tell you what was supposed to that it must be sin, right? Like it must be sin to Somehow I'm broken. to be thinking these things and other people don't think these things. because I'd never met anyone whoever said someil other things, but then like even other things, I remember like as a teenager like planning a birthday party with my best friend and I was like, Oh, it'd be really cool to do like karaoke and like all the guys can sing girls songs, all the girls can sing guy' songs. and he like dead pan looked at me in the face and said, whyy would we do that And in my head, I'm like, why wouldn't anyone want to do that? Sure. Why wouldn't anyone want to And then yeah So it stuff like that like over the years. And that kind of stuff just came flooding back to you in that box? Yes. like all these images and feelings and phrases and things that people had said and things that I had said, you know, very much would just be like Surely everyone wishes they could be the opposite Ls like that's a normal thing And maybe some people like entertain that thought for a second, like out of curiosity, but I would well on it. I would obsessed over the idea of it, like how cool would that be you know, to to be this other thing that that I feel more closely aligned to Yeah. It all comes down to hiring. You got to find the right people for your team and you got to bring them on board and you got to onboard them You know, just throwing up a job posting and hoping You get lucky. 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Start earning up to four point three percent variable APY today by heading over to wealthfront. com slashic. Terms and conditions apply This has been a paid testimonial from a current wealthfront client, which creates a conflict of interest. Client experiences will vary Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank Base APY is as of january thirtieth, twenty twenty six and subject to change. For more information, please see the episode description. It's like sort of like your world gets rocked in there Yeah. And then and then you're like, I should probably talk to someone about this. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And of course as we're leaving that school, there's a psychiatrist, psychologist there like, oh, if you ever need to speak with them, there's the person you talk to, and that's the last person I want to talk to about. Be it's like because the fear was if I say these things, then I will be immediately pulled out of training, I'll be immediately Which probably wasn't true.. Right. But it's the fear and it's the story every pilot tells you It' like, well, whatever you do, don't tell the door like which is not great for aviation safety and its own. but at the same time, it's archaic and they disqualify really good pilots for no reason. So And historically've disqualified people for a bunch of a bunch of staff. right? Like that's not that big of a deal R. And so yeah, it it's tough to kind of go it alone knowing like I can't really talk to my family about this. The only person I told was my wife and That was rough in itself. that feels like a that feels like a tough conversation Yeah Yeah Have you ever told your wife? Nothing like that. Not yet. Yeah. ye, that was a hard process At first it was very much, you know, like you did this to me, you tricked me, you like you know, like betrayal. and of course, justified And had you guys been together a long time Yeah, yeah, about about ten years. So And then after a while of me telling myself that I'll just I'll just liivving life this way. I've done it for this many years. I can keep doing it. att least I know what it is now and I can can treat it without having to transition and things like that and Ab a year or so in couple of years into that pull me to the side and said, hey, look, I can see this affecting you and You need to do whatever it is you need to do for you, for your health. Wow, what a gift Yeah. And she said, not worry about me like I'll still be there for you whenateever way I can, maybe not in the same way, but I won't forsake you. and I say that She didn't give me permission, but she set me free Right? because there's no way I would have chosen to do that to her. I would have just suffered Yeah and The dark side of gender dysphoria that's untreated is the indifference to living What do you mean by that knew that I wouldn't kill myself I was Totally okay if something killed me That's not a great attitude for a pilot probably. No. Yeah. And it was never. other people's lives at stake. So it was always one of those things where like, no, like I need to do this for them and neverever occurred to me, but at the same time like I'm in the car by myself driving and it's like, oh, if someone pull it on in front of me, like That wouldn't be so terrible. Right. But I would never seek it. It's not like I would ever do it, but it was one of those things where like I had accepted in a darker way that I found I'm dead I'm dead. That was tough T 'ause that's like taking The soldiers' acceptance of death and pushing it to a point of Being, like I said, indifferent Indifferent to life. The soldier's indifference to death is in service of somethingxact someone. Exactly. What you're describing as more like in service of myself. Yeah. ye. serv O resignation Yes. Yeah. Yeah, not giving up, but like I'm like, oh, this kills me like There's an upside to that. Yeah, maybe. Well, because it resolves an irresolvable conflict in your life without you having to anything Well, who doesn't like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's very. the ultimate lazy approach, I guess. But it was also one of those things like even though it wasn't my wife's fault that I wasn't transitioning at the time or treating it It was building resentment. Just generally like at her at the world like they won't accept me and now I have to suffer because of It's weird how something how long something can lay inside you And then as soon as you put a name on it or think about it, it becomes something you have to deal with Yeah. When you just realize that's what the mind and the body must doing as some form of self protection. Right. Well before it was pursuit of achievement So it was whatever this thing is, if I just get a degree, if I just go to flight school, if I just have a house and a wife and a dog and all of that thing and a kid you know, that's that's the, I guess productive version of dealing with whatever it is is is a way of pushing it away. You need something to pursue in hopes that This will be the thing that fixes whatever this is. Yeah And I think on top of that, fight school is kind of like my last big thing to do And then afterwards I would just try to be an expert pilot. and so There might have been some timing in correlation to that as well of like, I've done everything else where you've eliminated all the other things that could possibly be source of whatever, the discontent, confusion. Yes. Yeah, like I was playing in the church band, you know, my wife had a daughter, so like, you know, I was helping raise her in the home and from five to eighteen. And you know, it's just like one of those things like you're like there's still something else and like But you're busy so you can't think about it that much. Well, yeah, if you're busy, you won't think about that. Yeah. Yeah, you just think about the next thing. You get locked in a box for a while and you' not busy for a second. There's nothing else but to think about Yeah. and you can't even You don't even have the energy to think about something else. Right Be all of that is gone because you're depleted Yeah, you're left with what your mind wants to think about Right. E against yourng Bill Yeah. yeah I mean, at hour one, I was singing songs to myself, you know? Yeah, how many hours into it is this? eightish, twelveish, I don't know. Yeah. It was probably like three quarters the way through, I' already guess. But you know what's weird? Like, you know, like you think you're dreaming like the whole time you're asleep and then actually it's like two seconds, you know, like the dream could be the last likeike millisecond as you're waking up because it's all in your mind That is the weird thing about the sensory deprivation experiences is just how muchuch it reveals Like I remember I was in a sensory deprivation tankpe one time and I had this experience that I was like spinning around that I like that floating in a circle. and then they turned the lights on later and I was like, o, that's physically impossible. Like I couldn't have done that. Like I was obviously just here laying in the exact same position. But when you You just lose your your bearings and all the things that sort of hide you down to how you thought things had to be and were. And so yeah, this all could have been in the first twenty minutute. You don't know, I guess, right? Like Yeah, like I know other things happen before and after. Yeah Yeah But no one was there coaching me in there or anything. Interesting. Yeah. The only interaction was negative if there was interaction with anybody else. Are there other people in different cells near you or you like how does that even work You're aware of other people around. Yeah. Yeah. sorry, because it's kind of classified. I don't want to give too many details, but yeah Have you talked to other people who went who had similar awakenings in there? No I mean, other people had like, things but You know, men. They don't like talking about stuff like that. And they're not going to say that they had epiphanies of all sorts of wild stuff, maybe if they're really open, but They tend to not be so much At least military men now. Yeah, I guess. yeah, that's interesting. But obviously leading up to the training, people who've been through it like, o, enjoy the box. like It's a common thing But everyone I asked like, hey,, Of course they say no, no, like I was just really tired of hungry or I thought I saw a ghost. you know, it's like very like surface level. but I wonder if some of them had some other things that they explored Maybe're too embarrassed to talk about Not necessarily like identity or anything like that, but even out there, like crazy. feavver dreams or whatever. Yeah and then how quickly we push those things back down where they belong f course or where we s thinkink they. Right Yeah, if it's anyone's fault, it's the arrmy's fault. You know, I should get disability for what they did if they're claiming it makes you unfit to serve and it happened there, I don't think that's that It's funny that Yeah, because of it, I'm unfit to serve, but it's not a medical condition I can claim in the VA for disability. Right, But it's disqualifying for So that's kind of a fun one Yeah, where it's somehow a choice, but it means you're unfixably broken because you made the choice. it I mean, we all know that if it was really because of a medical condition, they wouldn't have put animous language in the memo of being inherently inconsistent with an honorable and disciplined and truthful lifestyle. because that's verbiage that was actually in there And so if it was truly a medical thing They would just say it's because it's a medical condition, but they wanted to make it sting a little bit as well Yeah, I don't get why people care so much. That's always been the weirdest part about it to me I know why a lot of people tell me they care and it's all the things that the Army had controlled for to allow us to keep serving. case by case basis. if you're not deployable, you can't serve, It doesn't matter what you have. If you know, we have these complications or whatever it is and it's like, oh, well the cost, it's like, well, the arrmy spends more on Viagra than they do. generated froming care. So it's like What's really the problem here? It's like we're just uncomfortable with people Yeah Because it is uncomfortable. I can it's funny too Like I find it hilarious like this life I lead because it's just I never thought I'd be leading it. Yeah you know, and so I can come from the conservative Christian world like so I understand what this looks like and what this seems like to people And so just I just wantan to build those bridges though. I don't know. I think I can make a difference. Before we get to that. Yeah So you become the pilot and then then the new administration comes in, your status looks like it's going change, but then this's other adding absurdity on top of absurdity. Yeahes. so I'm worried that I'm gonna be kicked out because The election happens And that's what he said he's going to do. But also he said that in his first term and there was an exception clause. So they were grandfathered in anyone who had already transitioned while serving. And that was part of my reasoning under Biden why I went ahead and jumped in and did it because I was like, well, This might be my only opportunity because they might close the door on it later. And so in twenty twenty three, that's when I started that process. so ome inauguration time, twenty twenty five, January in the first week or so, the executive order comes out that they're going to ban all trans people from serving. and that it's likely going to be a full purge as well where they're going to kick out anyone who has ever had a history of gender dysphoria or ever attempted a transition, which don know how you define that, but they put on a wig one time. Right. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. ye, yeah who knows, right? Like they painted their nails over crap. That's half of California, right? So But no. and so like That was a lot. Yeah. in the same time frame There was a terrible tragedy over the Potomac near Reagan Airport where a blackhawk collided with a airliner. K killing everyone involved all six. was that was January of last year And so Around the same time So like I had been asked by someone I worked for, Michael Sirkanish, who has a serious XM show. He'd asked me because he knew me personally, Hey, would you ever want to write kind of like a reflection on being trans in the military as a way to humanize the story because I don't think people understand you're the person that's being kicked out. They think it's these, you know, kind of cartoon characters that you know, blue hair and like undeeployable and just, you know, sucking off the government's teeth type people And I said you know, like let me think about it like because I knew the risk of being public and being targeted by anti trans people, plus I was still technically serving. and I didn't want to risk my service for maybe someone misconstruing that I'm speaking ill about the administration and I figured, well, this is my chance to actually be brave and be all these army values. I've been taught and religious values and speak about it. So I wrote this essay and just said, It was basically a love letter to service. like I want to keep serving. And I will serve until they won't have me. Like I didn't speak ill about the administration, just talked about my personal journey and how important service was And coincidentally that was published the same day the crash Oh. And so Somebody found that essay and twisted it to say it was a Suicide manifesto and that I was the one who flew the Black Hawk intentionally into the airliner because it was such a non deviation flying straight Everyone was like, oh, this must have been intentional And then on top of that, there was an unnamed female pilot that the administration had held from releasing for a few extra days. and presresident had made a bunch of, well, we know it's DEI. we know DEI was involved. And so between all of that someone had put together my essay and pictures of me that I must be this unnamed pilot. And I intentionally causeed the crash. and I'm another example of being a trans terrorist. Yeah And that happened on X or Twitter and I didn't even have an account on there And so I wake up to text messages of people asking Am I dead orr friends asking, do you see what they're saying about you online? Like are you okay? And then I received a phone call from the Daily Mail, which I'd never talked to The Daily Mail before, and there's a British guy there end going, I'm surprised you answered. You know what's being said about you online Yeah. And I even though that by nature of you answering the phone. is disproving the rumor that you died in a plane crash. Right. Yeah. Well no big media outlets were running with it. They were just running with the rumor that was happening, right? Right. And so I Googled myself, which is a weird thing to do as a private individual and saw all sorts of stuff hing said about me. And so see your training. right? proroof of life video. I'm going to put a video out that hopefully I'm going to say it in a way that can't be turned into more propaganda, right? All this training immediately came to light And I record this video as clear as day as I can that I'm not involved and this is terrible that you're doing this. like insulting the victims of the crash to try to tie me up into some conspiracy theory And that viral, the video itself. and then of course I had a wave of direct messages and things about how I'm a plant and I'm taking the fall for someone else and I was actually supposed to be dead, but I spoke too soon and they didn't have time to kill me. and wild stuff. on top of that death threats, you know, like the fact that like, oh, you are a person that actually exists and you are alive. Well, we don't like that. L you know, very much messages like, I can't wait to spit on your grave You know, things like that's just like, it's a lot for still trying to make coffee in the morning. you know on a Friday morning. So when you've done literally nothing wrong didid nothing. Yes. I did nothing. and so You know, the next morning I was on CNN live telling the story. and in between that time, I hid my family. like we all went to separate locations. I packed bags, I armed all my firearms, I concealed carry. My fear was that. againgain, you're having to do all of your training. All my training came to light in the most Like you expect to get shot down or you expect to in a war in But here I am at my home in Virginia having all this happen. and My private employer saw everything happening and reached out and said, Hey, look We can hire security for you because we do this all the time when there's like C suite people that like, you know I said That would be great because I'm scared to death that something's going to happen not to me, but to my family or to people who are associated with me. I mean, I had friends that own bars in Amsterdam calling me. saying they were seeing it. on the news. Right. It's like a global story. It was a big story and I think a lot of people When I tell the story, they're like, oh, but you were alive. so there's nothing there. I'm like, No no, you don't understand. Like now I'm a trans bllack Hawk pilot that's alive. Y. that people didn't know existed, right? They didn't think that there was a trans Black Hawk pilot in the world, right? And now I exist And I'm not the only one and it's just like And then they found out that over the course of my transition, I was also converting to Judaism, which added to the rumors Right? Now now I'm like the DEI wet dream. I like trans Jewish, you know, like all conspiracy bingo. So that was an intense weekend, to say the least. and life hasn't been in the same since. When I've got to imagine, not just like as a trans person going through life generally trans person trying to not get kicked out of the military. The whole point is that you're just trying to Not draw attention to yourself. Exactly. and here the whole world is looking at me And then the perversion of it is like You're trying to fly under the radar and then they're like, whyy are you shoving this in our faces? Why can't you just be normal? And you're like, I am being normal. I was just living my life Yeah until you put this on me I had many people say like, oh, you're making trans like your identity. It's all about being trans. and like, no, it's just that's the story. Yeah. Someone said it was a trans person that has weight to it because Elon Musk loosened a lot of controls on Twitter after he bought it. And it became very common that in the first minutes of any tragedy, any shooting It was a trans person, right Be he also has a personal vendetta against the woke mind virus, as he calls it. because his child One of his children is trans and he believes that they were corrupted by this woke mind virus. So he has an especially like a sensitivity to trans issues. Yeah. And so Duff was flying on X like no big deal. and so there was It created like a very fertile ground for something like this Yeah and for it to go so far because so many other examples had happened And it kind of just created this machine that somethingomet happens Tie it to a trans person, get all the clicks, get all the outrage. And then maybe it' be true. If not, we'll just delete it And so when that happened to me, which is one of the reasons why I was hesitant to even publish the essay I said, okay, well, I'm going to fight back Yeah, the instinct when something bad happens to think about, what's a minority group I can blame this on? or how how can the presumption be that it's pilot or a Jewish person or a trans person is such an insidious and Dark form of racism and bigotry that we just kind of accept it as a society is like somehow like a normal political talking point, and it's not. like It's amazing. isn't it insanely dark? Well, it comes from the idea that what they're doing is they're saying, well, it's not because that they're black, it's because these DEI policies put unqualified black or trans people in these positions and if they'd used the normal meritocracy system, then we wouldn't be questioning their skill set because they're black Right. So even though the by assuming that the right and you're also inserting the person into because you have no idea who it actually was. But exactly Yeah presuming that because it was a woman or it was this race or that race or this orientation or that orientation, that they are they exist, one of the unqualified token recipients of the promotion instead of one that earned it, one that that is the rac is, That's what we're talking about. R right It could be that in one specific case that some woefully unqualified person slipp through. And if that was what the evidence happened to be, then you'd be like, okay, this is why we don't do that like what you're doing is presuming that happened because that person looks like person who could be could benefit whichich is racism. It's it all just it at the end, it's just you can make it as complicated as you want. You're being a bigot I don't know what to tell you It's it's wild because I never Got any C EI beneficiary. L it's not like I was in fight school passing the same evaluations as everyone else was by the same instructors that 'ause I went through as a guy. I wasn't. I didn't transitionure. So it's like, what are you talking about? Like it was no DEI for me Like I went through as a straight white male if anything think that was the advantage? Yes. L I had I had a female stick buddy is what they call when you put in paris and flight school and they call them you your stick buddy because you fly together and do everything together And I had a female partner Stick buddy and she had an instructor tell her to her face, womomen shouldn't be pilots In twenty twenty one in flight school. Right So where where is the like advantage she's getting when she would get all the hard questions and I would get the softballs. whenever they would sit down and do like some like just knowledge like oral like back and forth. It's like, o, tell me about this, tell me about that. And like I could just like confident like BS my way through it and then like they would just grill her For no reason It's rare, but it still exists Like, especially in aviation, like That's such an old school like good old boy circle. and thankfully it's changing and it has changed in a lot of ways. but You know, those fifty, sixty year old, seventy year old instructors. They haven't changed that much And so they still have their biases that whatever they were taught growing up and it comes out and you see it and you're like, yeah, that's But I was a straight white male, like what was I gonna do How you experienced that as the person's partner then probably lands a little bit differently Yeah. now becausecause I have to imagine she could have had a whole life like that, not just that instance, right? Y. And in my mind, it was just happening there Be of that environment and So you have a whole different appreciation when you are the eye of Saurononss on you. Yes,es. R sure. And so that's just It's crazy because I still am conditioned as a guy in a lot of the ways so I can businessus meetings or whatever people will sometimes try to, I guess treat me like a lady and like It bounces off becauseuse I'm like I just say it. I'm just like, why are you talking to me like this? Yeah No, I should get this raise. L I wasn't conditioned to make myself small in that example, right? And so it's It's weird living on both sides of it. You know what's weird to me about the T thing in the military? is it Like it seems like the definition of a don't ask don't tell situation in that like, who get like how does this affect anyone but That person when they go home at night Well They're reviewing women in combat effectiveness now right. So it wasn't just people in their medical condition now it's Well, maybe women aren't effective doing these jobs they've been doing for a decade, right? Right. So it's almost like Project twenty twenty five was exactly what they wanted to do which they said they wanted to do. And then people people like, no, no, no, no. It's like, oh, all these people very close to the president wrote it. It's like, yeah, but that's not what they're going to do it and it's like they're solely implementing every piece of it. Yeah And I don't know, like There's they've kicked out about six thousand or so Well well trained trans people that I think are going to make a very interesting resistance I was going to ask you, yes. So how many trans people do they think are in the Armed Forces Between six and ten. They don't know because believe it or not, the Department of Defense doesn't track it why? Because it's a note in your medical file. It's not a status that anyone can see anywhere in the system. And so they needed us to out ourselves in order to kick ourselves out. Yes. and six thousand out of how many people are we talking about? Oh, I don't know. Like I't know what the current But a very I mean, it is an incredibly small Yeah, and of course when I tell people that they said, well, they kicked six thousand out because they wouldn't take the COVID vacs Yeah And I said, Yeahah, and that was stupid too If you didn't like that, why are you okay with this? Oh, because it's not about what it is, it's about retetaliation punishment, it's about the idea of I didn't like your side, quote unquote. and now my side is doing things that I'm It's like they're glad that there's some bullying happening. like on a meta level. like they want someone who will bully back because they felt like they were bullied That's my best guess when we're talking about them sure. Yeah Yeah. No, it is just weird how enormous a political issue it is for something that is Well, it wins. Yeah, right now Yeah, and it wins because of you know, the things that I get in trouble with when it comes to trans organizations is like it wins because Jenifing care for children is you know, very controversial. and then of course, trans women and women's sports. Yeah, which they do generally have an advantage. Yes But again, effects such a miniscule, right Right A amount of people, right. But that becomes the wedge issue, right? That becomes trans people represent this very small edge case of a thing that is not great and I mean, even like on ships, like women and children first, right? That's who we protect. And so What is the trans issue? It's mostly women and children, right? We don't want mutilation of kids and on top of that, we don't want men coming in and stealing trophies from our women Yeah. And so it falls, I think on more of that Core consciousness of like being an American is like protecting women and children. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's more like this thing makes me uncomfortable and I can't just say this thing makes me uncomfortable. So what can I where can I find one or two edge cases where It makes a lot of people uncomfortable or there actually is some legal or you know, health thing to be concerned about. So then I can say, o, no, no, it's really just this And so it it makes it makes an illegitimate thing seem legitimate. Does that make sense? Like I think that's more what it is. I think when you're talking like political operatives, yes, but talk when you talk to people who the result of all that messaging, they don't think that way. They're thinking this is an issue. Yeah because they're being told it is and because the biggest issues that most people don't know a trans person. Right And so when people ask me, like, oh, why you doing all these engagements, speaking and comedy and like being so public after everything it's like because like No one else is telling the story Hey, it's Ryan. I'm on the road right now doing talks all over the country. I love traveling. I love going to new places The thing I don't like about it though, is I don't get to sleep in my bed at home which I like not just because it's home, but because I have an eight sleep on my bed. I've had an eight sleep on my bed I don't know, five years. I love it. My wife loves it We love it because it cools the mattress, it heats the mattress. you can have different sides cool at different temperatures. It's even how I wake up in the morning instead of an annoying alarm clock or that, you, horrible sound on your phone, it lightly buzzes you awake and then when you're up, you want to turn it off. you just The mattress, There's all sorts of awesome features in my eight sleep. It was worth every penny. The point is, I love my eight sleep and the eight sleep keeps getting better. Eight sleep users report up to thirty two percent better sleep and up to thirty four percent better deep sleep. This is all stuff you love. You can use the code daily stoic at eight sleep dot com slash daily stoic Right now to five hundred dollars off And this fourth of July sale ends on july twelfth. So don't wait. And if you have an HSA or an FSA, some eight sleep stuff qualifies for that as well. through trrue med and qualified customers save about thirty percent on average Check your eligibility at trrumed d. com slash eight sleep before you buy Tue med is for qualified customers, HSA and FSA tax savings may vary. I'm on the road for these daily stoic talks I'm doing. I started in Seattle. My family and I drove all the way down now I' in San Fancis. Sacramento tomorrow It've actually been booking houses on Airbnb all along the way. We stayed in this awesome one in Mendacino last night. We stayed in a lovely one on the ocean in Bremmererton, Washington. It's been awesome. And that's usually how we stay as a family when we're traveling. We book houses or apartments on Airbnb. But what a lot of people don't know is that when I first started as a writer, I used to list my house on Airbnb. My first house This little house in East Austin, we would book it out when we were out of town, which is what Airbb is so great at. And then when we moved out to the country, I would write at it during the week and book it out on the weekends. And that's how we helped cover the mortgage. That's how I was able to make the transition from a marketing person to a writer. Wherever you live, but especially if you live in a city that's hosting a bunch of events this summer or you're traveling You should think about listing your house or apartment or condo on Airbnb. It might be worth more than you think. and you can find out how much at Airbnb slash host There's two things there So most people probably do know a trans person Which is the whole fucking point, right? Yeah you do. and you don't know it, which is how it not just should be, but which is the point which is it's somebody else's thing Somebody else's life, it's somebody it's what somebody else has beneath their clothes or deals with with their doctor And that's all that it is, which is to say no concern of yours, right? Like like And so I think there's that. And then yes, there is something I do think really important about meeting and knowowing some representation is so important because then you go, o, okay Again, it's nothing. Like it's again, it's normal, like all things are normal Exactly. Yeah. and I keep going into these traditionally red circles for that reason, right? Like as a soldier you run towards the front. Yeah. you know, you don't I don't want to be in the the liberal circles, the glad you know, rooms because You already agree with me? Yes, right I mean, my parents voted for Trum each time. And it's like I want to win them over and mayaybe that's like a weird piece of this is like You're trying to win back your family. Yeah. Yeah, in some way. How's that going It's going great everywhere except them You know, I meet people exact the inverse of how it's the unverse. It's very much like I never realized that this is what this is, you know You are a trans person, like youre not anything like the things. Right? I mean, other than like few other prominent trans people, like there's still not a whole lot of examples. And I don't think we should be given spotlight just because we're trans. and that's one of the things after the crash Rumer it's like, I don't want to be known for something that I didn't do. Well h. Right, rightight. And so I'm on this journey of figuring out how to become known for something I did do. and not waste something that while it was a tragedy in the sense of the crash itself, but also a tragedy and like how it turned my life upside down Also like You know, making lemonade and lemons. When my wife and I moved out here to the country, we bought this ranch we were bothoth from California and the suburbs had zero experience Our neighbors were these two women and one of them was trans. and her name was Vivian. She's amazing She's the one that showed us how to use a tractor. She's the one that showed us how to fix things our front. Actually, we were so helpless that afterwards she started a charity helps like Basically city slickers do what we did, right? That's amazing. But like she showed me how to do all this stuff that by the way, my dad never showed me how to do.ight She worked on oil rigs. She wass a vet. Also she lives in Colorado now she was running for I think, state Senate there. But like we would not have survived like literally and figuratively without this person And I think about it all the time because like I don't know if we ever talked about it, which is kind of the point. Like you're just like, you know, maybe you can tell, maybe you can't. Maybe somebody told me. I don't remember how like I don't remember how it came up And then you're just like, That's a fact about this person Yeah, amongst many other facts And then you choose whether that's be the thing that you let define them. O you choose whether that's a significant fact to you or not. to me, the way more significant facts, not that this is insignificant or significant. it's just The things that matter to me about this person is all the things that they and the kindness that they showed us and the friendship that they showed us and that they were fun to hang out with. So you have those experiences And so it was sad one day to wake up when she was running for office. Uually she's on the front page of Libbs of TikTok, you know that account? Oh yeah. Yeah, they posted the rumor too. Yeah And so what I think is really important is not just meet this person and you become friends with them and then you go And then when someone decides to treat them shitty there's a human face on that too You're like, you're You, a person whose only job is posting random bullshit videos and rumors on the internet, have decided to take this person who's been incredible to me and to make them into some sort of predatory monster or some sort of degenerate. It's like No, that's not going to work for me. I think that's what needs to happen more. Sure. Well, it's like I tell most people like I'm all these things like Black Hawk pilot, now comedian, like used to be a level two crossfit trainer, like all these things I just happen to be trans. Right. Like And that's how I wanted to be. Like when I came out to my unit It was kind of like, oh, cool, like It was a non event. sure Everyone I came out to, I mean, other than my parents, of course it was an event. like my wife, of course it was an event, but most of my friends became closer peopleeople I worked with in my private job, I came out and they're like, okay, like no big deal Because why would it be a big deal? You people that made a big deal about it it was current administration who made it a winning campaign issue. Right. And you know, and of course everyone who likes to feed off of that and like lives a TikTok who just makes a living you know, getting retweeted by Elon because he owns the platform. so it's just I don't know, and that's a tragic in itself because Elon's got so much to offer to the world. You know, it's just like Yeah, who has God? Who has the mind virus Yeah, it's interesting because yeah, like we're all susceptible. to The toxicity and the corruption that is being popular Yeah. and and you would think though when something like that happens to one of your children? There's very few things that your children do where your impulse is like anger and Judgment and especially when This is happening in Well they don't They don't reflect parent They're their own person. Yeah Like, especially when they're an adult, but also it's like, yeah, like you like my parents, I I applaud them because didn't react that way.. Like they still tell me they love me, they don't understand. they think I'm inherently on the wrong path based on their belief in Christianity. and that's I can respect that because I understand where it's coming from. It's not coming from hate or anger, like towards me personally They want the best for me. they just think the best for me is this other thing. they still love me. and I just I don't understand why I have a daughter, Even if she like, you know, like whatever I can think of that she could do, I can't imagine reacting that way. Yes, you know, has to be ego, right? It has to be some form of ego. Yeah, it's like, you're like, I don't want to lose my my child, so I'm gonna to push them away really, really hard. It doesn't make any sense. What happens in history, right? So like what is that instinct? L how is love not the first instinct in this world. Like I just don't understand it with so many people claiming religion, especially Christianity or whatever, like the first principle of all of this is love. And love shouldn't make you angry. Yes, love, understanding, curiosity. R, acceptance. It also just seems like a much better way to go through life. Like even if it was a choice, even if it was harmful, even if like people do lots of crazy shit. Eactly. You know what I mean? lot people smoke cigarettes, people do all sorts of things that may might not be great for them or for people around them. Yes, right? And it's weird that some of those things are just so much bigger to them than others Right. And how we hold those things in society even is like we hold the trans issue so much higher than What is killing children and we're worried about this very small subset of children that might have got some care that was risky or dangerous or maybe not appropriate even for them But yet The number one killer of children, I think was firearms or something many, many, many Yeah, like guns. Yeah, which you could actually do something about right now and which you can't restrict at all even in a lot of circles. So it's just strange to me like The things that we go after and it's You know, you always fear what you don't understand, right? Like that's part of it too Well, I think the child onene is another one too. It's like one of the things I've learned having kids who are, I guess you'd say neurodivergent is like You have a lot of opinions about things before you have kids and then before you have your kind of kid. like whatever your kid is, right? Like we all have opinions about like, why don't parents just do this? or you know, the solution to that is this And then what I think happens is God gives you something that challenges that very assumption. and in that moment you realize had No idea what the fuck you were talking about. Right And if it was only so easy or as simple as you thought it was And if you've met any parents who have children who have gender dysphoria or curious or what you realize is like they like you are totally overwhelmed are trying to do the absolute best thing that they can for their kid and that they're having a hard time. And they are there some parents as there are in all facets of life doing Totally fucked up things you know, parents who are using their kids to do this that sure course. But the vast vast vast majority are trying to do the best thing they can for their family. and are getting the best advice they can and are not sure like I remember my wife and I were talking to someone about like, you know she we send our kids to this kind of school at this kind of school. And he said, you know, I haven't met any parent who's like We figured it out. You know, that we are sending our kid to that perfect school. It's like every parent is questioning their choices. And when you realize that You go, I just honestly, I don't have any time or authority think about what you're doing at your house or what those parents are doing in that state Because like I'm underwater over here Yeah. If you're really doing the work. Yeah. Yeah, then it's difficult and it's a journey.s not it's not a one and done anything. like you could put do everything right and it still end up wrong, you know, or different. the greatest contontradiction to when it comes to gender dysphoria for youth is in the UK, they banned it after having it, and then they said, actuallyually we're going to do a study now And the people who were against it because there wasn't conclusive studies are also against the study. Sure. Because now you're experimenting on kids again. And it's like, well, we're trying to get the data that you say doesn't exist to justify it. and now you're saying we can't even do that. So People just I get too much time other their hands. there a lot of spend a lot of time thinking about other people's genitals, and that's I think, our main problem. chronically online, right? likeike that is the woke mind virus is that. Its being chronically online and, you know, it it's very freeing to just not hold an opinion about stuff. Yes, right? Like this is actually one of the core ideas of stoicism. I was say, this is from Marcus Reeles, right? Like there's power in . Well, no, he says, you have the power to have no opinion. Yes right. and there's power in that. Totally. And a lot of us are like, no, no, no, no, I gott to make up an opinion about a thing that I just heard about. You know why, right? It' because when you scroll each thing you see is asking you for your opinion. Yes in either an overt or a subvert way, it's asking you to form an opinion because you read it and you're like, what do I think about this? Yes evenven you're asking yourself, your opinion on it. and It's exhausting. right? By the time you're scrolling for an hour You've had to decide and come up with your thoughts on so many things doesn't pay your bills doesn't feeds you, doesn't your kid, like Wh yourself out. There are things that for the most part, you wouldn't have known existed if you were not. And then also were specifically and algorithmically filtered for you to elicit strong, positive or negative opinions Right. So on top of just that mechanism now it's also Fottinging against you. Yes Yes, to basically make you a judgmental sort of like intolerant asshole. Yeah, then you put it down and and you walk outside and your kid's doing something you don't like and your reaction is completely different Yeah, sure because you' you're amped up, you're something, right? And it's just it's just nuts to me and people don't They don't understand like You're literally playing with something toxic every day when you're scrolling and doing these things Well it's toxic for you, but then also I think what your experience is a reminder of is that it's also has toxic effects for the other people that you've turned into a video game But it also changes how you interact with people in real life. Yeah. Right. They they're like, oh, it's online, it's not real life, but it's so much is, right And it's tough because like I think in productivity, like they talk about like decision fatigue And you have to make so many decisions and the best way to like kind of Orient your life in the way you want it to is to have M things already decided, like whether that's what you wear or what you're going to eat, if you don't have a lot of options and you narrow it, then it's not a decision you have to make so you get to save that energy. And so when you when you crack open social media, you're justre you're spending all of that. Yes. You're spending all of that on on passing the time. so when it comes to when you need to have those resources, you're spent, whether it's your child or your parent or your job or whatever it is you're doing or you're driving and now all of a sudden you're angry at everybody and it's like,, I've already wore myself out for the day and I hadn't got out of bed yet Be you wake up and you just start scrolling, right? Sure. So it's it's it's wild. I'm a big fan of like Cal Newport like digital minimalism and like a lot of his books, but in general, like stuff like that. And of course atomic Habits was huge to me and understanding that and just I try to example Live that example because I don't know any other way to show people