Societal Standards and Lack of Shame

The telegraph Do we need to bring back Bosts and should parents be sent to jail for their children's criminal behavior? We speak to former top cop Peter Blexley, who says there are two things missing when it comes to raising children in the UK today Discipline And deterrent. Welcome to the Daily tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me Camina Tomminy Kim, we're going to discuss whether we should bring back Bors. You obviously went to one because you compared to me you were state to state school. I meant to be this person that because I was privately educated, I consider anyone who wasn't to have attended a Borestal. It was a bit like a Boral in the sense that I was always running away. Were you?es. You weren't a happy student. Not until your Cambridge days. And we are joined by former Met pololice ive Peter Blexley to discuss Whether, first of all, we should bring back Bors and secondly, whether parents are taking enough responsibility for their children's bad and indeed criminal behaviour. Well, I've sent a few people to Bors. D you overver the years And remarkably A couple of months ago I was making a joke on social media about how I was useless at everything So I felt I qualified to be a minister. not of the clergy, but of the government, obviously.. And a guy contacted me and he said, Peter You did a very good job in sending me to Bostol. where he did three and a half years And so then we had a little bit of a chat, as you can imagine, away from the public there And he said it was the best thing that ever happened to him. Really? But is that everybody's experience? No. And is that just because it scared him straight? or did it sort of teach him things I think the length of time that he moes away from home That's why I'm such a big fan of lengthy jail terms. Right. If you've spent ten, twelve, fourteen Christmas days away from your family O does it eventually sink into you about the magnitude of the harm that you caused, the damage that you created. but it also makes you really reevaluate what is important. and what you're missing out and what you then don't want to miss out on when you leave those prison gates. It can also help some people to get sober. But I bet I mean when it can help some people to become drug addicts. True. Unfortunately, it can work both ways. But when you did send people, I mean, my question, did it teach them things, did or does Borssel or prrison have some benefits in terms of teaching discipline To young tradeicular Yes, to young people in particular. Long term, yes. Yeah. Long term jail terms actually work and that All the stats bear this out People who have served long jail terms usually come out determined not to go back Yeah, but then do we want to be sending away teenagers for years on end? What's your definition of a boreol versus what we have now, which is a youth offender Institute Well, I was speaking to somebody only last week who works in a youth offenders Institute and the tales of violence of the horrors and I mean the people. that I locked up described to me as absolute horrors regarded as being beyond redemption than in their teenage years. So these are miners, right? They're under eightens who have been Children, as far as the system iss concerned, they're called children within the system. And found guilty of very, very serious crimes. Serious crimes and they are reeaking I have a behind these doors and it's absolutely was described to me as being just off the Rig to scale and just beyond any kind of redemption. And it's had a change from the older Boral system. Was the Boral system more disciplined and orderly were largely based upon military discipline, of course, the bs Whas I think theng Fender institutes now are more based on a model of the prison service in recent decades Either away We've got rising violence in society We've got increasingly horrendous crimes being committed by people including very young people. and there are people that really need discipline It's the D word. it's what I call the D word And it's not Dirty word Certainly not in my household It's so important. I lack discipline. as a child. I got up to teenage shenanigans at the weekends with my mates, none of which I'm remotely proud of. But when I then joined the police cadets which was a wholly different situation where the physical training instructors were former Royal Marines. and if they caught you leaning on the wall, they'd say, right, down for ten Blexley ten press ups The option wasn't or what? Yes. It just didn't exist. You got down and you did those press that. Why have we witnessed a sort of erosion in discipline in young people over the course of recent decades David Lammy, the Justice Secretary is suggesting that parents need to take more responsibility. So I'll ask you as a dad of three grown up sons, Peter Blexley. When you were in the force, I imagine you'd quite formidable at the dinner table. if somebody came back from school with some bad marks. Were you the bad cop parent or was your wife? or how did you make it work at home Both my wife and I value putut in place boundaries I call it discipline. Sarah prefers to call it boundaries, but they were in place. and they were unreachable So there wasn't any coming home from school. with lousy results, it just simply didn't happen And the fact that there was pline instilled everywhere, in every aspect of their lives perfectly offset, should we say, or supported By love Unbelievable love. I still kiss My kids before they go to bed now, we've only got one left at home. he'll soon be on his way But they still get kissed and get told they're loved. every day, whether it's on the phone, whether it's in person. So they knew that the boundaries make them feel comfortable and when I talk about boundaries, it starts when they're tiny. Before they can talk, they understand the word no Pull off grandma or grandad's glasses. Yes. It's no and anybody who doesn't want to teach their children the meaning of the word no doing themselves, their children and society a huge disservice. But crucially there were two of you husband and wife Now is there a correlation between rising youth offending and single parenthood I don't have the stats to hand. I don't. so in your experience. It would probably be ill advised of me and I'd probably be doing a lot of Single parents are a huge disservice. Some single parents do a wonderful magnificent job. And I'm sure If you're working full time, You're then getting the kids home from school and you've got to do Make them their tea and Get them doing their homework and all of that. Yes, it must be challenging, but it's easier, in my opinion, if you've got boundaries, if you're instilling that discipline and it truly starts from before they can speak And it doesn't have to be draconian, it doesn't have to be Bllying But it's boundaries and kids love it. They feel secure, they feel loved, they feel safe. Look at the word no when the kid toddles towards the oven.. It's no, isn't it No. But then something's happened with love because you could have a situation where almost children are loved too much and they're told word yes too often because parents are worried about hurting their feelings And we know there has been this rise in children knowing their own rights, which I don't think we knew as clearly in the nineteen eighties we were. We just did what we would do. I was nota aware I had any rights. No. mean do we even have any rights now to That's the question. And then you get the other end of the spectrum, which are parents that are showing no le or concern for what their children are doing at all are letting them run riot. taking no interest whatsoever I mean, when you dealt with young offenders whichich category would they largely fall under? Because I could be just making assumptions here, Peter but I'd imagine you know, criminal children probably come from criminal families father's not interested, mother might have an addiction, but I'm just probably painting very middle class ideas onto different Socioeconomic pictures, right? Yeah my uniform polic in phase were a long time ago. but firstly, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with this I know my rights culture. Well, if you know your rights, then you Booming well should be aware of your responsibilities And there is a responsibility upon you to be polite, to not steal things, to not go and break into somebody's home And the list goes on and on and on, of course And this is so much of the problem. I know my rights Well, I'd rather you were familiar with your responsibilities. and then you wouldn't have to spout such drivel. Back to policing Yeah, a mixture of things. Sometimes you'd scoop up kids who had made a bad decision and done something stupid And I'd know that, they'd know that. Generally speaking, they were mortified. theirir parents were mortified and you knew that was going to be that kid's one and only experience in a police station And you think they're going to be fine. They've seen the error of their ways Others that come from criminal backgrounds, criminal families, they smash up that stolen car They're fifteen, sixteen years old cause carnage, you drag them out of that car and take them down to the police station It's largely after there's been a chase, for example And I would just know that I'm going to see that kid no matter what punishments they get I'm going to see him again and I'm going to see him again. And eventually the criminal justice system will catch up with the level of their offending, and then I won't see them for a fair few years. But then that does kind of put a question mark over so called expansion of parenting orders So Mr. Lammy is considering plans to expand and strengthen the orders which can punish parents if they fail to ensure that their children attend school or rehabilitation schemes. And this does come on the back of the South killing because in that case Sir Adrianne Fulford carried out the inquiry and heavily criticized we'll call him AR, AR's parents for not stepping in. They sort of wanted it both ways. They wanted to say on one hand, we can't control this lad, but on the other resisted getting the authorities to step in to help because they didn't want him to end up in care or prison. Well they actually challenged his exclusion school after he attacked a fellow pupil with a hockey stick. so it wasn't just that they off The father knew he was taking delivery of weapons. so that was an extreme case.. But And it comes off the back of a US case, which I think is very interesting. There was a school shooting in Michigan at Oxford High School in twenty twenty one. and subsequently not just the shooter was prosecuted, but also his parents were prosecuted because they had failed to handle his mental health problems, and also they had actually purchased the gun that he had used. So I think parenting orders could be effective if the parents actually care many of the cases, the parents are nowhere to be found. so what difference would this make? First of all, I have to tackle The fact that you've called Axel Ruda Bakana A are. But I say A are because the parents of two of the girls who have murdered say, can we never mention this guy's name again? Rud Cabada that's why I said AR because two parents have written to the media and said, stop using his name. We don't want our girls to be associated with this guy. I can't understand their hurt and their sense of loss. Of course I can't But the name Rudabakana needs to be seared into the very wide public consciousness. People need to know that name. They need to be able to identify that name with the horrors that he committed. with the failings that led to it so that we hopefully can all move together As a society, as an establishment to ensure that those abominable things do not happen againain that would be my standpoint Sure On the issue of would parenting orders help when the parents don't care what the children are up to I'm not a fan of orders whatever they be. and we've got a raft of them these days that the police can use. commommunity orders, now we're talking about parenting orders which have been in place for a long time, but have shrunk hugely from a thousand to thirty a year or something. Orders for me signifies a failure by the system the situation It's very easy. I'll give you an example. Somebody gets arrested, a persistent shoplifter So they give them an order not to go to a particular location. Well that's utter drivel. What you really need to do is grip the offending, gather all the evidence, get so much evidence that the CPS are then actually boxed into a corner whereby they can only authorize the charging of that person And then that person goes in front of a ct and then hopefully they are suitably punished. Orders are used as a sticking plaster, as a lazy way out but so that people don't grip it and deal with it properly police just a couple of years ago published figures on what people are arrested for And nearly fifty percent of Kent pololice's arrests were four breach of orders because they don't work so often. They're a shortcut, they're lazy. they signify a fundamental lack of gripping a situation, doing the hard work, gathering the evidence, getting the statements, finding the witnesses, all those kind of things and then presenting a package of evidence to a court. It's lazy. They're lazy But what Lemmy wants to do is increase the penalty for the parents if the child breaks the order. Now I take your point that orders themselves might not work, But how about that idea of saying you will be the person who is punished if your child misbehaves. And I quite like that because it compels them then to take an interest in what their child is doing What a sad indictment that we have to compel people to take an interest in what they do Yeah. But we do I want Culpable liability punishable by imprisonment. R whereere the evidence is clear, right Unequivocal. So rather than mucking about, just send the kid to some sort of detention So the parents, rightight. O parents if their parenting has been so manifestly neglectful. irresponsible, that it can be said to have contributed to the offending, then yeah, you got to prison as well. But any of Lam's reforms won't start sending huge swathays of people to prison because there's no prison space. Yeah. Lemish Justice Department is sending out messages But I know this sort of a fact Two judges, two magistrates, and it's filtering down to the police Don't arrest people, donon't charge people if there's any other alternative because there is not prison capacity Coming up next, Peter discusses flash mob crime and shoplifting. Well, this is a really important point. So when we've seen this kind of flash mob criminality, for instance, when Youths find out on social media that Everyone's going to go down to JD sports and just force the doors open and have a looting session. and that has happened in parts of London. It's happened in Clapham, it's happened elsewhere. I think part of that is that the young people because of this whole rise in shoplifting, that decline in prosecution for shoplifting, this two hundred pound limit, which the Prime Minister repeatedly says he wants to scrap seemingly nothing really changes down on the retail floor, that they just feel that they can get away with wanton criminality. I mean, I would be really distressed to see my children, one of my children on a video trying to loot sportswear shop. I mean, that would be like I would really feel that that was a damning indictment of my parenting. But wouldn't you make sure they had the best lawyer so they didn't go to jail? I would ensure probably to represent them myself with legal training. But sorry, I mean, there for the grace of God go I, one can never say that their children wouldn't get up to something insanely stupid Yes, I can. Sometimes children get dragged into stuff that they minor adults. three addult children will never spend a die in a prison cell. I would like to say thatly right. But I'm making the central point about don't you think with what you've said about people running riot in actual young young offendnderers Institute plus what you're saying about the lack of The police's ability to bring charges because there isn't anywhere to house these kids that the kids know this. they're not stupid And they just think, well, I'll go on a looting spree in sports direct because I'll probably get away with it. Another D word there's not sufficient deterrence, but it comes back to a lack of discipline in the home, discipline in schools Woeful in so many schools disciplineine and deterrence. We don't have the deterrence. They're doing that kind of chaos that they created in Clapham the other week. They realise that there's not going to be a patrolling police officer that you just happen to bump into as you run out of that store with your pair of trainers. Well we've goters nowroll the stre. The people who are policing the stores shouldn't stop shoplifting. Non interventational policies. C couple of supermarkets firing people who stopped to bring the conversation full circle Would a boreol be a better deterrent than a young offenders Initute I mean, what are we thinking? that we should bring back borsts because as you say, they were run with military precision and actually succeeded on getting kids back on the straight and narrow We'll have to wait and see it's very light on detail as usual with any of these governments policies, sound bittes and other nonsense spewed out and light on detail. but again, it comes back to we have a fundamental lack of discipline in society self discipline and broader discipline It is sadly lacking. You've only got to get on a train likeike I did half Arica There's someone with their feaith on the seats, there's litter on the floor of the train. You've just got to see it's everywhere. It plagues our nation The mess Fly shipping. that we the standards of behavior and so on and so forth, we are lacking the D word Is there a risk here that we conflate two different things? One is a general level of ill discipline? I'd agree with that. But in the case of AR, there's something very specific, which is the reluctance or inability to section people who are very clearly a threat to themselves and the rest of the community. Very possibly, but then is there such thing as so called petty crime It's not petty when your phone is nicked out of your hand or you're shoved to the phone. No, and let me say this point. It antiocial behaviour Tim that literally ruins your commute to work. Proven offences by children in England and Wales have increased for two consecutive years, rising by four percent in the year ending march twenty twenty four with significant surges in sexual offences up by for seven percent and violence against the person up by five percent. So this is not just hysteria. There's genuinely something happen. But also if you're a young person who hasn't got good parents or I don't know, is somehow socially deficient in various different ways. And you think that you can go on a commuter train and put your feet up on the sea and listen to music without any headphones on, regardless of how greatly it inconveniences others and throw your McDonald's out of the window And actually, if there's a flash mob at your local JD sports, you may as well just join in because nobody will care. It's not that much of a leap to then move to greater moments of criminality simply because you think you can. and you've lost any self respect you ever had.. I mean, those formative years of a message being sent out to young people that they can just do whatever they like without very many consequences, is societally hugely damaging. It actually puts more emphasis on parents is the parents that then have to step up the parenting against societal norms to say, no, this isn't normal This isn't how you should behaving. No, you shouldn't have your feet up on a train seat basic stuff, but we do seem to have let those standards slide There's also no concept of shame anymore. No exactly. discourage the idea of shame, but the children should be ashamed of their behaviour, but also parents should be ashamed that their child was caught doing this. Or like, haven't you seen somehow how young peopleople behave and they're sort of back chatting to adults on a train or in the street. And you think you'd not dream of doing that back when we were growing up. I would have been clpped around the back of the ear, but I'm not sure that was a good thing. I think as soon as you use violence, you've lost the argument And I fundamentally agree. In fact I would outlaw smacking as well like they have done in Scotland, but that's a completely different debate. You can put in place boundaries and discipline without having to need to raise your hand to a child. That really is not necessary if you do it properly. I think we also need to remember that there are millions of brilliant parents out there raaising their kids the right way to be polite after you, Madam, after you, sir. Can I help you with your bag? all of that kind of stuff? There are still many, many people out there trying to do it. Unfortunately, there's a growing swathhe who clearly do not clearly think that they raaise their children to think that they're entitled and they can do what they want consequently, that's why we're in this situation now Peter Blexley, thank you very much indeed for joining us again on the Daily Tea. It's pasure thank you very much.