The Future of Labour Communities

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I hope you'll join us ACAS powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend I'm Monica Reingel, nutritionist, author, and host of the Nutrition Diva podcast We dig into the questions that you are actually asking if it's okay to drink coffee on an empty stomach whether it's possible to retrain your sweet tooth, which ultra processed foods you might actually want to include in your diet? we take a closer look at diet trends. sketchy claims and track down the science so that you can feel more confident about what's on your plate New episodes are released every Wednesday. Find Nutrition diva on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening, and be sure to follow or subscribe so you don't miss a single episode ACast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere AS. com Burnham a bit of a fraud. Rather than talk about his own policies, he seems to just want to have a go at Margaret Thatcher It's time for the King of the North to be honest about who he really is and admit He' Starmer two point zero. And we'll also speak to the Labour Grandee Baron Forwes, a minister under Tony Blair, who thinks Kir Starmer is right to keep digging in Welcome to the Daily Te with me Tim Stany and me Camilla Tomini In nineteen seventy one, the Tory MP Ernest Marles appeared on the BBC and introduced Britain to a crazy new thing called jogging. Morning, mrter Marles. Morning Now what's this about this jogging? What's it all about? The idea is it's an exercise which people can take no matter what age they are get themselves fit It's a well balanced exercise worked out by an Olympic games coach. First class, you walk fifty five yards. And then you jog for fifty five yards. No we' jogging. this ad is halfway between a walk and a run This was an import from America, Camilla which was going through was something people didn't do before the nineteen seventies They just walked very quickly. We were English. We just walked very quickly And in nineteen seventy nine President Jimmy Carter I remember this from my PhD try to promote jogging and he took part in a run around Camp David that was meant to be ten K Four miles in He lost control of his body and nearly collapsed And we shouldn't laugh, but we will laugh. It became a great example of political hubris of trying to prove that you're very fit and encourage others to follow your saintly example. but actually he couldn't go the distance. And we're discussing this because of Andy Burnham's run in his famously short shorts, which, as you say, could have led to some kind of Let's call it a wardrobe malfunction. Well, I called it a sack flap, which is the male version of a nip slip. A particular event. But this was really that the modern British political obsession with jogging is really a Blair era thing. And there was a copy, of course, of Bill Clinton, who was trying to stay on top of his McDonald's addiction. He was trying to stay on top of quite a lot, I think But Tony Blair copied it David Cameron copied Tony Blair. and now we're in a horrible downward cycle where every person who's interested in high office thinks they have to put on sneakers and shorts and go running around the block, including most notoriously Boris Johnson. I used to love his jogging outfits. It was like part what I would wear to the beach what I'd wear to a cricket match Yeah. He basically just delved into his old boarding school trunk.es, pulled out whatever he could find and put it on. He always looked like he had spotted a bus out the window had thrown on clothes and was trying to catch it. Chase it and never quite did. There was a I can't pull this off. Look about him. You know who never ran To be fair to her, Theresa May, apart from through a field of wheat. That's true. And we don't even know if she did that. Even Liz Truss to re ignite her career was famously photographed running across Brooklyn Bridge during an international visit. That would have been to show off the clothes and she wouldn't have broken a sweat. No She perfect liiz. She was in perfect top But Andy Burnham has also been doing some walking He's been walking around Makerfield in his new very slick four minute campaign video already been made It's impressively quick that, isn't it? Anyone would have thought that he might have been planning this for months What did you think of the video? I thought it was very effective you're so eas completely without substance. Yes. Look, I'm going to have this debate for the next four weeks. I can disagree strongly with Andy Burnham while recognizing that even though he's on the other team, he's a very good player And one thing I find curious about him is this is a video in which he just walks around says, You're right to people and they go, Aandem. know All that happens before. I'm un imppressed with it. That It's Nigel Farage. In fact, let's hear a little bit of it now. It was bling up in and around these streets. I saw what Fchers governments did to places like this, the de industrialization the draining away of economic, social and political power It left places like Makerfield behind. and Britain has been on that path for the last forty years, and it was the sense of injustice I got about the way this country is run. that took me towards politics. Okay. Yeah, well I'm mean United supp. Oh yeah You are more than welcome Oh really should know that That's what Nigel Farage does. He just walks around saying Youving a nice day darling and they all go, I can't believe it's Nigel Farraage. I've never said that there is not more to politics than Farraage on Clackton Per with an ice cream in his hand.. But it's like if you were going to AI How does a Mancunian candidate? how does he win over Makerfield? And what it is apparently, according to AI, is walking around in a t shirt being glazed by members of the public. Funny enough, they cut out anyone saying You're just an opportunist at him in the street to the strains of, I think it was ellbow and then of course, some might say by Oasis Is this also? This guy seems to be rather the greatest band that ever lived, by the way in case any of them are listening. I was Do you know what? I think Noel Gallgh does listen Because he did once contact Rachel Johnson to say that he found you and I quite funny. There you go. And we love you for that. Although I was always a bit more of a I was more blur, R. I had to the end as my wedding song.osh. I He' sort of slightly obsessed with Damon Alburn, but that's another story.'s laborour isn't he? anyway Oh, he's very left wing,es, indeed. exactly. His drummer. and I once appeared together on celebrity Mastermind, and his drummer is a labour counsellor was once. But we're digressing him. But my substitute point would be Yes Reform Party tries to tap into a sense of being left behind, ignored by Westminster, I'm an ordinary person just like you, and I can better speak up for you in the halls of power. and I just find it curious that Andy Burnham's great reinvention This is we're on Burnham three point zero now. Yes. is a left wing version of reform vibes. Okay, so it's the politician that we all want to have a pointint with, and in fact, he's even pictured in that footage in a pub with a lager in his hand. So well done, Andy, I love the manan of the People Act You said yesterday that I mean just I sort of look at it all go Isn't there more to it all than this? No Because if their worth were to talk about policy, he'd lose Be if he were to talk about the government's record, and let us not forget and this is being forgotten in Manchester. He is running as a Labour MP. to prop up a labour government. and if you were to walk around talking about specifics, either people would say, Well, your government screwed that up, haven't they? I mean look at youth unemployment And and how people can't get jobs. or they would say to him, what are you going to do different? What is your actual policy to do things differently? It's much easier to run against the ghost of Margaret Th Eactly than it is to run with the real corpse. I know Oh St. But this is the other thing that you'd put into AI What should I campaign on in Makerfield that was once a mining town? What would really ingratiate me with the people that are going to vote in this by election I tell you what, I'm not going to come out with any great ideas. I'm going to first of all have this kind of homage to brit pop of the nineteen nineties. And then I'm going to go further back and I'm going to attack Ferism It's like sort of socialism one hundred and one, isn't it? Let's go back to the Thatcher era But isn't it actually rather disingenuous for two reasons First of all Andy Burnham was born in nineteen seventy Okay? He is a child of Thatcher His mother's a receptionist, his father's a telephone engineer. They managed to live in a nice semi detached property up in that area of East Cheshire Okay. He then goes to a very good Catholic school and ends up in Cambridge. Okaykay, as he would suggest, I suppose he's working to middle class. so he is a perfect example of social mobility under Thatcher By the way, the likes ofridget Phillipson and Rachel Reeves and all the others are too He then is suggesting in one breath that Manchesterism is the model that we need to adopt across the rest of the country. Now I don't think the growth of Manchester has happened just on his watch, by the way I think urban regeneration has been going on for several decades. It may have started with somebody like Thatcher and indeed Lord Hesseltinene, who she appointed as the Minister for Merseyside back in the eighties and has continued since Is he giving the Tories no credit at all urban regeneration of the North. Does he not remember that Thatcher, although she was the milk snatcher and the person that closed down the mines, and by the way, she was following the rest of Western Europe and indeed North America in doing that, because as manufacturing became cheaper in parts of Asia, all of these economies shut it down on their own patch. He's not giving her any credit for the Niss sand plant in Sunderland. He's not giving her any credit at all for the fact that some of those houses he walked past in his video were bought by cououncil house tenants. In fact of the one point three. why they're very nice. Well, the one point three million homes that were bought by council tenants under right to buy Of those twenty five to thirty percent were in the north of England. So that was the scheme that gave people a generational inheritance But apparently, Thatcher is all evil. It's an unfair representation Yes, but she is like a mythical figure, isn't she? And she lingers in the imagination of Britain as a turning point, as if there's life before nineteen seventy nine When healthy welfare state, everyone worked in a factory and we rubbed along all right. We have our problems, but we rubb along. a minute. And then eomically bankrupt in nineteen seventeen nine. R OkayK, butish in the street the lights went out. Yeah. But my point is that in people's imagination, there is the world of pre nineteen seventy nine, and then there's Thatcher. And Thatcher just sort of undid all of that And again, I come back to, this is why Berham's quite reform me. He's running on nostalgia And much of the left does. By the way, in that nostalgic history of Britain in which the key bit is nineteen seventy nine to nineteen ninety seven V veryy little said about ' ninety seven to twenty ten. Yeah. When a great number of manufacturing jobs were lost in this country. Y. I mean started it, but Blair gave it rocket. Manufacturing declined in large part because of modernization because automation and because of the rise of the service economy. Manchester's revival. There's a bit of manufacturing there, yeah A lot of it is off the back of services.. It's off the back of office space finance, conference centers, things like that. But also he has to explain What he was doing if he hated Thatcher What was he doing in a new Labour partarty was the heir to Thatcher? Yeah doubling down implemented many Thatcherite and neoliberal policies. In the same way that the Tories have to explain why did you oversee the opening up of the borders? Labour has to come to terms with the fact that they were implementing much of the neoliberal agenda that they claim to dislike. Also, why aren't the Labour Party and labourites like Berham just a bit more honest about growth So this government came in in twenty twenty four, pledging growth at all costs We must have growth. We've got to get back to growth What they're saying is, we've got to get back to thatcherism. becausecause the average growth rate for those eleven years was two point three to two point five percent. Now, they'll say, well, it wasn't good growth because it wasn't well distributed growth. But the last time I checked, the Chancellor just takes the growth rate Okay they would be giving their eye teeth for a growth rate like that right now. What's the statistic of the Labour government right now today, Tim? I'm just looking at our ticket tape top story Youth unemployment at an eleven year high Sorry your brain's in gear. Right. But o. like o, so you're going to disassociate and condemn Yes. What was, I think altog togetherether collectively in real term, a rise in British GDP twenty nine to thirty percent during Thatcher's tenure. You want to completely rubbish that because of course, the alternative, this unique brand of what is it, Manchesterism, which is Business friendly socialism as if that isn't an oxymoron. That's what private public partnership And its up, it picks up off the back of where Hesseltine started whichich is Heseltinism was not actually lais faire at all. It was about the government stepping in and saying we want this areera to regenerate and we will help it. And acc tax cuts and improvements of infrastructure and things like that But what I would say is, while I think Britain's become richer because of thatcherism The controversial thing perhaps is the way that she went about it.. And that's partly the practical policies, monetarism in the early nineteen eighties imposed punishingly high interest rates, which many factories just many businesses just couldn't cope with. And therefore, although Manchester and other parts of the North had been de industrializing for a very long time, it happened rapidly That wasn't her intention. There wasnt transition plan. That was never her intention. She wanted manufacturing It all happened very, very quickly, and it was accompanied by a rise in the availability of drugs, the breakdown of the traditional family, decline of church attendance, to create an impression of an era. The other thing is that Compare Thatcher with saying Thatch is Brit with Australia under Labour in the nineteen eighties, under Bob Hawk and Paul Keating Labour also began the process of deregulation and privatization. They did many thatcherite things Politics in that era is nowhere nearly as controversial in Australia as it is here in the UK And part of the reason for that is because for Hawk and Keating Privatizing and deregulating were not ideological, they were pragmatic.es. for Maggie They were ideological. So for those who are against them and who feel they lost out It was like an experiment that was imposed upon them. Yes. And that I think is what a lot of people resent about her. The idea that this sort of Victorian matron came along and forced the medicine down your throat. All right, But look at the medicine that was forced down our throat by Blair and Brown, under which Burnham served. mass migration? Exactly. So the left liked to insist that the reason we've got a housing shortage right now is because nobody built enough council homes to replace those that were sold under right to buy. Anybody with any sense knows why we've got a housing crisis now and why Andy Burnham's parents who were both working to middle class could afford a semi detached home Whereas nobody who was a receptionist or a telephone engineer today could do so, and that's because of mass migration. It's because of housing shortages brought about by an absolutely giant leap in immigration from nineteen ninety seven onwards. Yes, we can have a go at the subsequent Tory government for doubling down on that rather than honouring the pledge of bringing immigration down to the tens of thousands. But if the left seriously think that our housing shortage has been caused by Thatcher rather than their own policies, then I'm sorry they're completely bonkers. and everyone can see it. They also dislike her because she went to war with what was then devolution, which was very, very powerful municipal governments And they say she did that for political reasons because they were dominated by the left The counter argument is she did that because they were preventing the regeneration of their areas, because their policies involve large tax rises, overspending, poor accounting and things like that. And so they sort of had to have thaterism imposed on them. But again The whole narrative of Burnham is people back local power, let them take their local services into public ownership and they will run things better. Yeah. That is his argument and that's one part of his anti thatcharism. It's this sense that she over centralized the country and she undermined local government. But since these northern towns and cities have all largely been under labor control regardless of the change in government over the course of the last thirty years At what point are the Labour MPs and mayors in control of those areas going to take responsibility for their own lack of regeneration Okay, Berdam wants to take all this credit for revitalising Manchester as a city centre. And when he goes through this video, you know he's being for high fiveived and people are saying, o, if he can do for Manchester, for the rest of the country, if he can do what he's done in Manchester, that's great. Okay. Well, the regeneration of Manchester has largely been brought about by huge amounts of foreign investment includcluding from the Chinese who are heavily embedded in the redevelopment of Airport City, heavily embedded in loads of the tower blocks that have gone up there. It's also a process of gentrification. Of course. becausecause lots of people in the eighties just left. I mean, really parts of Manchester' totally depopulated. and those people have been coming back because of universities, because the BBC has moved up to Manchester. And the place just looks nicer now because it's full of a lot of middle class people Precisely that. But then the divide isn't north and south anymore, then is it? No it's city and it's town. It's city and it's seaside town. And that's why and Matt Goodwin made this point yesterday. That's why we're seeing reform surge in places like Wakefield or indeed in long forgotten seaside towns that haven't had any funding in years. And that's also why there's a disconnect between Burnhams Manchester Rism and the towns in Greater Manchester that haven't benefited from it at all. Absolutely. Where the high streets are boordered up where there aren't university students wandering around spending ten quid on a cocktail. Or indeed people attending party conferences because that's when prerecisely just on that point, I mean, where do we always go for party conferences? great success stories of regeneration Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester We don't go to Morcam anymore. We don't to Blackpool anymore. I wish we did because you and I could go on that big roller coaster. And mean great content for socials. If you look at the development of Liverpool docks, right? Yeah That's all around restaurant fine dining. Yeah. expensive leather satchels and other gift shops selling exorbitantly priced things. Exactly. They have undergone a process of Bourge wasalsification whichich is thatcharism. Yes. The left now takes credit for that. And they do so rightly because they're proud of their places and they're proud of the fact that they have returned and they're now roaring successors and people from all over the world want to go there. That's great One could argue that it's a combination of left and right wing policies that's done that. Yes. And we need to apply that very pragmatically to the country, not talk around as Burnham has done, not go around talking about nationalizing things. So we're actually fast concluding, aren't we that Burnham's a bit of a fraud? As he parades around Makerfield in a black t shirt seemingly borrowed from Simon Cowell's wardrobe What is for this guy? Why can't he wear a tie? Because he's far too cool to stand you for that He's just so ny bloodyormal. Well, nobody normal wears a black t shirt and a black jacket let a judging panel of a talent show, by the way. or like wororking behind a bar somewhere. But anyway, you know what I've got a thing about sartorial standards in politics and let's be honest They've slipped But I'm sorry, there's something dishonest about this guy, right? He can't work out where he stands on Brexit. He's having a go at Thatcher even though he's an heir to Thatcher and a child of Thatcher He's going on about not being a neoliberal, but then supported neoliberalism for most of his labour career Scy's just a chararlatan like all the rest of them. And by the way everybody in this race frankly, and I'm sorry, and I'd probably apply the same maxim to the right as well as the left They're just thoroughly unimpressive. Yeah, well, that is true. I agree. but I think Britain is very into mediocrity. I think Britain is drawn like moths to a flame to the mediocre And I think it's partly because We don't want to be challenged We don't want to have to work too hard ourselves So we keep settling for cultural icons and political figures who just won't stir anything in us Okay, why do we hate Thatcher? Partly because she demanded that we get out of my bed and get out j. Well you like her? Well, I've got a picture of her on my desk as you know. and I've got a picture of Churchill on my desk at home. So I think you know where my priorities lie. Yes. Leership couourage ideology. Yes, a grounding in something. Yes. Could we have the people challenging the Prime Minister to actually be grounded in something because I can't define burnamism any more than I can define stararism. anyy more than I can define streetingism. anyy more than I can define rayarism. I mean, she's left Oh, she's not that left Well that's because all these these people in the Labour Party, they are all trying to define a political philosophy that has died So just It be all things to all men because they're just opportunists, Tim. Yeah, yeah no power craised opportunist. It's partly that, but democratic socialism. died And in the nineteen eighties, there were people like Michael Foot and Neil Kinneck who knew what it was articulate it and had something of a plan to build it. And even the respect for them for that by. And that has been completely discredited and no one's doing that anymore. Like I almost have more respect for Corbyn. Yes. becausecause at least we know where he stood on things. And by the way, apart from the flip flopping on Brexit for political expediency, he's believed in that stuff for decades. But Corbyn was a nostalgia vote There were young people saying, I want the seventies back. we had no idea how awful. They wanted the wrong part the seventies back. If you look at the logo of the Labour Party, it was returned to a flag. If you look at the lettering, if you look at the colouring, if you look at it styling under Corbyn, it was all a play back in time to the pre Thatcher era.. And I come back to this idea that people have in their head that there is this prelapsarian world, this idenic world of England before Maggie Thatcher came along. You're going fully prof here. I'm nothing. go on, carry on. Right. Which is what we need to get back to where you could, you know what they say You could leave your front door unlocked. Yeah you didn't Everyone was in and out of each other's houses. People squing each other's things. Yes, exactly. they were borrowing sugar from each other. Right. But also this, and this has been mentioned by a number of Daily tears and do keep the emails and the messages coming through because we read all of them and I often personally reply but quQuite a few people have pointed out the absolute sort of I don't know the kind of shallowness of what Josh Syimmons has actually done here. Yeah. Josh Symondons is a man who's at the helm of the think tank labour together that was actually responsible for Kia Starmers Premiership correct propelled him to power. It said, We need to clean up after the Corbn years and this is the man to do it He is part of the Morgan McsSweeney Peter Manelon Axis. Yes that put Starmer in as a Trojan horse pretending to be a Corbynite and then turned the party back towards the center. Yes. Although I think he's so flip floppy he is part Corbournite, by the way ight I don't believe st you know, Starmers Park Ken Loach Park Gordon Brown, I don't know what the hell he is, but the point you know Maxine Peak would play him in a biopic of his life. the point it with a wig on and whatever. But the point is here, Josh Symons has turned around to the people of Makerfield who only elected him less than two years ago and is basically two fingered salutes. sayay now I'm backing a different horse. Hang on. You got Starmer elected, you're now having buyers' remorse, and you're going to use this constituency of one hundred thousand people to play out some kind of form of political three D chess to get Burnham into Westminster. Oh, and by the way, while we're doing it, we're all going to pretend that we're not doing it and that he doesn't actually want to be Prime Minister because we're taking the electorate for absolute mugs. Right, Well, none of this makes any sense. Nigel Farage is the patriotic candidate and he spends a significant amount of time outside of this country Andy Burnham is running to be Mr. loocal for Makerfield And if he wins and then becomes Prime Minister, he'll probably never visit Makerfield ever again because primisteres don't spend much time in their constituencies. So none of this makes any sense. It's all about vibes. But I just find it fascinating that reform and Burnham are appealing to the same vibes, the sense that something has been lost, vote for me and I will reconnect you to a past which many people didn't actually live through and have No memory off. That's right Shall we just finish before we speak to Lord Faux, who is an ally of Starmer is going to make the case for the Prime Minister to stay in place? Let's just reflect on what Labour members think I don't often like to get intoide the heads of labour members but on this occasion get. I know they are. I'm kind of just playing this up in a. Just as Thatcher is derided as an old Haridan who only ever perpetuated evil, I also like to play up to my own reputation for being a quotes right wing battle axe. R. Carry on Labour members think Wes Streeting was wrong to resign as health seecretary. Well, I agree with him on that. and would rather star a beat streeting in a leadership challenge by sixty five percent to fifteen,. that very funny and reassuring. That is. Nearly half of members, forty seven percent rank Andy Burnham as their first preference for labour leader comppared to thirty one percent for stara and fifty nine percent rank Burnham above Starmer in their preference for leader. But Starmer hasn't completely tanked. It's not as if you haven't got a lot of labour members still wanting this guy to continue in office, right? Which is interesting sixixty six percent of party members believe Starmmer has done a good job as Prime Minister Just twenty eight percent think Labour are likely to win in twenty twenty nine if he stays leader though sixty one percent want him to stand down before the next general election. but that's not saying they want him to stand down now. This whole idea that the whole labour leadership is Clambering for Eylash McGraw is completely wrong. Yes. Well, we've mentioned Hesseltyne. Streeting has played the role of Hesseltine in all of this, hasn't he? He's the person who first wielded the knife. And it has destroyed his reputation.es. And people are angry about it. And they can't stop banging on about reversing the referendum. So they've got that in common too. Right. So he has bequeathed them a civil war they don't want to have. But if they're going to have to have it, then they will probably pick Burnham. And finally, eighty percent of Labour members say the party has done a good job in government making no further comment on that. Let's speak to Lord Forulkes next ACAS powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nikla Matthews Aomee, host of sideide Hustle Probe, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week, you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips. And so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check out S Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube ACast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere Acast. com While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for forty five minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears, and when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, host read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked Don't fight for attention. buuy it with ACast. Learn more by visiting Aast dot com slash advertise Fas joins us in the Daily T stududio, I should say Baron Faux, Labour Grandee, MP for Carrick, Cumnook and Dunon Valley. What a great constituency that must have been. It was called South Yyrshire for the first few years But then they changed it to Karakamak Non Valley, much to my joy because it describes it far better. It's very poetic. That was from nineteen seventy nine to two thousand five, and you are a minister in the Blair Government from nineteen ninety seven to two thousand two. The glory is, George. We will get on to the current machinations of Starmer, Streeting, Burnham, and all the rest of it But we were just chatting about politicians being filmed jogging And we wondered George, Have you ever gone on a run in front of news cameras? If you look at me, you wouldn't need to ask that question. Certainly not. No, I'm not a joggger I ought to have been. I would be healthier if I but I've managed to get to quite a high age Without jogging. Maybe you've got to that high age because you haven't jogged. My father says jogging is bad for the over forties and says the only reason you'd want to go out jogging is if you want to hear the sound of heavy breathing again. And on that bombshell, Tim, I'll on the knees It's very f on the knees. Tam on the knees. I advocate inclineed walking with a six KG vest on that's a discussion for another time. Tim, you kick off with George about Starma because I think George you're going to launch a robust defence of the Prime Minister I am because he changed the party, turned the party around If you remember we were l, well, led in inverted commerce by Jeremy Corbyn because he's not a leader, really And he turned the party around when he took over madeade it electable and we got elected with a huge majority. Not a huge percentage of the vote, I concede, but that's in a multi party situation a huge majority And for five years and he's implementing manifesto commitments, we implemented a huge number of them in the first session And in the King's speech just last week a number of others, including stopping social housing being sold off a whole range of other things So he's doing the job that he was elected to do. And that's why I think it's wrong to challenge him. OkayK, But George, this is not a presidential system. He's not elected for a fixed term, which he's definitely going to serve unless impeached. He is elected because he can command the confidence of the House He's lost that. He's lost that because the local elections showed Labour's doing very badly and because he polls as one of the most unpopular prime ministers in history, and his health secretary has resigned And now there is someone trying to enter parliament explicitly to get rid of him. Well, okay, implicitly to get rid of him In other words, things change And things have changed for Stara. And it's probably time for him to go He's had a bad press. I am not blaming the press for that. it's partly our fault, partly his fault and partly the Labour Party's fault in doing things but not getting over to the public, what we have been doing successfully. And he's a great lawyer, a determined man He's not the best politician.'s not he doesn't understand some of the dark arts of politics very well and that's why some a lot of people like him because he he's not a as such a smooth politician But that's harmed him and the media have been going at him. And not all not everyone in the media, but a lot of the media going at him incessantly. And a lot of fake news has been published, which isn't true about some of the things And then when you say, for example, that This was a terrible election result. It wasn't good, the local elections. But if you look back I've been looking at a number of them to two thousand four For example, when the great Tony Blair was Prime Minister and I'm a great fan Tony players, we had very bad election results, both in local elections and in the European elections in two thousand four and in two thousand five, Tony Blair was elected for the third time with a sububstantial majority. years into his tenure And because he was a good politician. Yes. I mean, you say, George, he's a nice man and I accept I think he's a patriotic man. I think he's got a good temperament. There are many fine qualities to Kiama But saying he's just not a very good politician It's like saying he's a great pilot. He's just bad at flying No And Prime Minister has to be a good politician. The difference between him and Blair is Blair could take a big loss in local elections and because he was politically gifted, spin it and win it. But Kirahmer can't and that's why he has to go But you te. One of the ironies is that he's probably far more popular than So that's the word to use better understood and better respected overseas than he is at home. I mean when you see him on the international stage with Macron with the Chancellor of Germany with Prime Minister of Italy I mean, he is getting on well with them and doing well When you see what he's done in terms of Ukraine, When the fact he kept us out attacking Iran with along with the Americans. He's doing a good job there and is very well respected And that's one of the ironies. I mean, the irony is that if he wanted to, if there was a vacancy for Secretary General of the UN or have some other major international job He would probably be the front runner. But then isn't that an indication that really he's Davos man that he is a globalist. And Lord Glassman, who I know you'll be familiar with in the House of Lords, he made this point that Tim and I discussed yesterday that actually this isn't now a battle between left and right. It's a battle between sovereignntists and globalists And unfortunately, Starmer represents this kind of lanyard class that appears quite disconnected from the electorate. The electorate have obviously got very serious concerns about how the country is being run. notwithstanding his negative press, George, we are talking about thirty resets and sixteen U turns In less than two years That's shambolic. I can understand why you're raising questions about the current Prime Minister. I wish All the media would raise the same kind of questions about the potential Prime Minister Nigel Farage. We are talking about elections to the leadership of the Labour Party How did Farraage become leader of reform? Was he elected No in a democracy to have a party which is a limited company which is some extent owned by him. Without any election and recently they've got a new chairman without any election And a democracy is really quite worrying And then I see on the BBC have now taken up this question about the five million pound donation that he got from a crypto currency billionaire. And the one point four billion pounds that he spent on a house which he then said He got from his TVance million, not billion. millionorry million. I mean, if it were billion,ry But hang on, I' going priceices is under labour. I'm going to stop you there because I appreciate the balance, but of course, Farge's fans will say, this is what abouttery. We've now got this fcical situation where The Prime Minister does look like a lame duck He says he's going to support a hundred percent the candidate that's announced for Makerfield, who we believe will be Andy Burnham. Andy Burnhams recorded this slick four minute video about basically how he'll be a better prrime Minister than Starmer because of everything that he's achieved in Manchester. This is all playing out before the public's gaze, and the public are rightly wondering what on earth is going on here You yourself as a former Blairite, at least there was a degree of professionalism to that outfit, notwithstanding the rivalry between Blair and Brown This is just an absolute The thing about Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, is that it was clear that when Tony Blair to eventually give up as Prime Minister, who was going to take over? Yes. and everyone Almost everyone accepted it was going to be Gordon Brown It is alleged that Gordon hoped it was going to be earlier and regularly approached Tony Blair about when he was going to step down, but it was never in any doubt that it was Gordon It was going to take over I think one of the things we have at the moment is that It's not clear that Andy Burnham is either first of all going to win the by election. I mean, I hope always hope that labour wins by elections, wins any election. And then if he is does when He has to challenge Kirstarma. And that againain is uncertain. So there are a lot of If before we get to the situation. Can you see an outcome in which he does get elected And he just It serves in a labour government, doesn't challenge star But there's a reconciation I think that's a possibility. and that would be the ideal possibility. fromr my point of view. I would prefer to see Kir Starmer continue his term And then Andy Burnham would be one of the contenders when there was a vacancy created by Kirst Armer, either deciding that his time was up because he'd had enough or being appointed some major international job bar. for some other reason, a vacancy arose and then it would be Andy Burnham would be one of the key candidates and one of the Favorites. to take over, but no doubt there would be others, whether it would be Web Streeting Angela Rayner, or some of the newer people You know, we've already had Al Karn's name mentioned, but there are others. there are I'm really very good Labor ministers at the minister of state level who ought not to be underestimated. And then there are dark horses like John Healy I mean, John Heilly would be very good Prime mininister. Now he's a politician It may not be as charismatic as somebody he is a very effective politician And so they're There would be other contenders. If a vacancy arose properly in the in the proper way. You mentioned Blair earlier in setting out a timetable. I mean, as you say, Gordon Brad was constantly at his office checking his watch. Timetable up yet, Tony. Shouldn't Kir Stahmer for the sake of the party and indeed the country with all of this confusion and chaos set out his own timetable now I think To be honest, if there hadn't been so much challenging, so much questioning, so much aggression He might well have started thinking about that and I think it might be better now If People stood back people decided not to press and gave him the freedom to decide when he thought it was best to sender But do you think he is of the character of someone who is willing to let it all go because I think as you've quoted Lami You know, one man's determination is another man's stubbornness. He's massively digging in and That seems to suggest that He doesn't plan on going anywhere. Digging in because he doesn't want to be pushed out. Right Deciding to go at your own time is not being pushed out and I think he said ten years And that's dilluded, isn't it Geor I think he was u saying that he'd been elected for five years and he would like on a program for ten years At the very least, he thinks he's going to fight the next general election. That's not realistic, is it? Do you think he does think that or he's just saying that? I think he's manifesting it. Yes, good words. Whether it's true or not, I think he'ing drinks, he can actually fight the next ch. I certainly think up until recently he thinks that he can turn things around Whether he currently thinks that I'm not so sure been discussing Andy Berham and Margaret Thatcher, because he seems to be running against Maggie as much as he's running against reform or the Prime Minister Now, Blair got elected by setting himself as an heir to Thatcher, or at least reconciling Labour to Thatcher Why is labor now turning against Thatchourism That's a very good question. becausecause we see all the effects of it, I see it in what was my old constituency which Communities are breaking down. commommunities don't exist in the same way Chures, people don't go to church in the same way. Is really such as thought. I mean, I appreciate the famous quote about there's no such thing as society