Reflecting on LeBron's Legacy

, I'm tired of this man being celebrated For what? This is the step back. Drive steps back, puts up a three Cleveland Cavaliers select LeBron J. Bron, what's your decision? I made a difficult decision, but I understood what my future was about. un belieleve one president is trying to divide us. My first response was new bum Welcome to episode five. Shut up and driven Well the climbate is hot. The number one job in America, to point of person, is someone who doesn't understand the people. and really don't give a fuck about the people. Let's use this moment as a call to action for all professional athletes to educate ourselves. Explore these issues, speak up, use our influence and renounce all violence I mean, we've been doing some dramatic readings with you this time. I kind of want to do like a slam poetry reading. if you could. it's of The third most retweeted tweet of all time. Really? Yes. and it comes from one at King James september twenty third, twenty seventeen at eleven eighteen AM H Wow, that's five dollars No It's for dramatic offect dramatic You clear your throat before you do dramatic We also haven't established fins on this show yet, so give it a as I was You bum, Step Curry. stop right there. That would have been the greatest tweet of all time if it was just you bum, Step Curry and setting up the ultimate rivalry, but it has nothing to do with that really. You bum, Steph Curry already said he ain't going So therefore, ain't no invite. Going to the White House was a great honor until you showed up end quote Again, I mentioned that was the third most retweeted tweet of all time But was that not the most Give me a hug LeBron has ever done. like from the public, I know you're all going to love me for this. Check this out. I'm going to throw Steph's name in there. I'm going to call the president a bum. I'm a champion right now. G me a big hug cup in his ear, a little bit of act to the crowd, a little playing to the crowd. No, I mean, I thought when he did that, it was the most overt cllaim against the president I'd seen from a pro athlete. Well you know people campaigning and all that stuff, that's fine. But this is straight up. you called the presresident Obama, man. That was groundbreaking material right there It did feel like he was calling Steph Curry a bum, right And then it was interesting to see him retreat into the shadows subsequently after that when the comments came with Brittneany Griner or China, where he clearly was out of his depth on anything beyond race talk. This fight was a fight that LeBron James wasn't quite equipped for. I'm not even sure it's fair to ask him to try to fight it, but he wasn't here for it much long after that. Safe to say his public persona in terms of politics and things of this nature Pretty uneven. Yeah, I mean, he's a guy who's had contradicting stances that sometimes come in conflict with one another And so how do you navigate it? And for most people, it's not a question that you need to really argue about. L you can have these competing ideals in your private life or even amongst your friend group or whatever, but when you are the most popular athlete in this country, then it poses different things. So For example, how he could be very outspoken about police brutality towards people in this country. and then be very silent about what's happening in China. featuring a lot of police brutality. For most people, it's like, yeah, I can navigate that because nobody cares. But when it's LeBron, everybody cares. But he's allowed to be a voice for just black people if that's what he decided to grow into. like Well let's see what he decided to grow into because Obviously, and I know you got excited there. We're not sticking to sports today. further exciting. you're going to have Jamille Hill on a little bit later to talk about whatever it is you would like to talk to her about But let's go back to may two thousand seven The NBA itself doesn't even have a Facebook page yet, let alone LeBron James, he's twenty two years old. The cabs are in the midst of the Etern Conference semifinals against Vince Carter's Nets The Olympics are coming up LeBron is dedicated to the Olympic team. It's going to be in China in two thousand eight There's a conflict in Dafur in Sudan. It's led to that point to the death of five hundred thousand civilians and the displacement of two point five million more. China, for the uninformed supplied Sudan's government with money and weapons, China imported Sudan's oil. Im mean, you grew up in Sudan. You've talked to Ira Newble, He was a teammate of LeBron James' and Ira had a very specific issue with the Olympics being in China I was reading the newspaper one day US said the day at the back of it was a blurb and I was ironically on a way to shoot around in Charlotte ust reading the back of it and it was a small blurb in the USA the day about what's going on in Dark Firm So A at this time, I'm working for the Phoenix Ss And obviously, I know what's happening in my country. It's been happening for a while, but it's starting to get a little just a little bit of like news coverage, but not a whole lot And so I remember when I R Newal did this, what did he do? So what we did is I constructed a letadder posing on China to do something about the situation And I pass it out to all of my teammates as well as some other teams in the NBA. and tried to get them to sign a petition. And you know, most of my teammates did sign that petition as you recall. With the exception to one and we all know it was LeBron Leron I don't know enough about the situation to put my name on it Yeah, it was basically more so just he needed to educate himself more on the situation. and become more aware of it and he just was uncomfortable at the time signing the petition. I mean, I completely understood that, you know, look, hes he was twenty two years old just in the league. startarting to solidify hisself in his career. I'm going to read a quote from this open letter saying that quote, China cannot be a legitimate host while it remains complicit in the terrible suffering and destruction. Asking him to sign a petition to bring awareness to it was not the same as asking him to boycott the Olympics, right? And he didn't. That was the whole thing that Iis said. We're not asking for a boycott I was really just calling about raising trying to raise awareness J to get some help over there and kind of do something about the situation From Iris's perspective, he just thought it was a situation where because of the Olympics coming up, there was a great opportunity to bring a spotlight to it. But at the same time, He says now yeah, the guy was twenty two years old and really hadn't dipped a toe in these kind of waters Almost any kind of situation like this probably we would have been daunting say the least And like I said, I believe more more of that is him being young And at that time, He didn't have necessarily have control of his career. I mean, he had control of his career on the court, but off the court. he didn't necessarily have control of his career. He had, you know, agents and manager and all these other people probablyro instructing him and telling what to do and guiding him At this point, Dan this age with this level of discussion point, right? Basically genocide in Sudan Are we expecting LeBron James to be informed on this, to have something to say, to be sharp on this at twenty two years old? Or are we giving him some grace and saying when he says I need to educate myself, we give him a break at this point twenty two It' totally unfair to ask him to go down the path of being adult enough to answer for things like that. when he spent the last six years of his life, hyper obsessed on how do I get to the league? You got to give him some time to find his voice. I didn't think that he found it in any way until he joined up with Duayne Wade and they went a couple of years into being in Miami before he was like, okay, I'll tackle some of these once in a while We'll get to that In a second, I just want to get Amin's thoughts on whether you thought Bron in this position, whether it was unfair, like Dan says or whether you thought maybe he could even come back with a little bit more information or a little bit more opinion when he did actually educate himself. Dan brings up a great point in when you're at that age for him And I ever smoke at this as well. You're still trying to figure out who I am as a basketball player. I'm still trying to establish myself in this league. And I know it might sound weird to people like w, he's the number one overall pick. He's been in the finals is' still kind of not discovered your identity yet. I think that's part of it. The other part of it is this was a very obscure humanitarian crisis for the mainstream American public There are many Coaches, many GMs, executives. Hell, many American citizens who are educated and have access to resources and are affluent who did not know about this who could not point to Sudan on a map obbviously as a Sudanese person, I wish something more could have been done. But I also understood that at that time Just the fact that Ira Newble or Don Cheetle or Tracy McGr, these people were taking these steps including traveling to Sudan to go to refugee camps and see what was happening. That in and of itself was a pretty big leap It was just the way I was raised and my father Growing up in the South was part of civil rights movement. and me coming from Detroit And just raise just wanting to help and do something B R Nuva was not his teammate. This probably wouldn't have been just on his door. So yeah, so that's a big thing. What made it noteworthy was I Renewable and that every other Cavs teammate signed the petition. other than Le. Yeah, but he's got a different set of rules, a different value to being attached to any cause. I actually think I make the argument even though of course you want a human rights activist to advocate for the proper human right Sitting that out though, if you don't feel like you have enough information, that seems the most prudent thing for a twenty two year old in his economy class to do. Not just a twenty two year old. Almost everybody because because it's something that they truly don't understand, it's not like this is dominating the news cycle and how can you not have an opinion That year, I was later traded or I ended up signing with the Lakers in the playoffs And Kobe Bryant actually did a PSA for the cause to help raise money when I was out there, I was able to convince him. he did him and D Fischher did a PSA for it. Let's go five years forward. He's twenty seven years old. He's a member of the Miami Heat. You mentioned it that he sort of found his voice alongside Dade Wade. point He's got four million Twitter followers. It's been a month since the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, who was a heat fan. He was seventeen years old. He'd gone out to buy some Skittles in a hoodie. During warmups actually for the MBL Star game And u He was killed Heraldo Rivera goes on Fox News and says, quote, I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as George Zimmerman was, just the most idiotic thing to say in making the symbol of racism the topic instead of the actual racism. So the heat, they get together in a hotel ballroom and they take this photo Basically all of them with their heads bowed wearing hoodies and Hashtag. We are Trayvon Martin, hashtag hoodies, hashtag stereotype Hashtag, we want justice. Dan, you wrote a column on this after they put this out the next day. What did it basically say This is a literal stand that this team is making as the most famous powerful sports thing that there is in America. They are using the attention that they have for a statement that is being made without a word made a bit of a work of art and I'm guessing LeBron James is now growing into I'm done being Dwuayne Wade's little brother around here. and for several years, I will remind you, Izz he He didn't have any Twitter followers when he started with the Miami. it was a thing when he joined Twitter and realized, oh, I can have my own power over here as well. And this is how he chose to use it. I'm not going to say early on, but long enough into whatever the pressures of America had been the previous ten years of his life for him to know the statement he was making here without a word I mean, we talk about this in the context of LeBron James, of course, but how did you see this and feel this when it came out? This very much felt like to me, a team thing, a sort of unity thing, a Florida thing as much as anything, and LeBron was just a part of it. black thing. R Back thing. Yeah. And that's what I felt like. I felt like this was something because it was local enough V. team came to that conclusion To this day, I don't know if LeBron spearheaded it or was just One guy who said You know, is this kind of basically the flip side of the R Newble situation which is five years later about a topic that he's a lot more well versed on at a time in his life where he feels more established and he's grown into more of a mature adult And knowing as a father, it's a cause that resonates a lot more Maybe this is the time where he says, Yeahah, I'll sign on to this. Let's do it guys versus him spearheading it. I don't know the answer to that It's certainly more understandable if it is him just going along with the group.. It's more understandable why given his advanced situation from five years earlier and also this is a topic that he does know about that he is comfortable and educated I gott to say that bothered me a little bit. L the idea like you don't understand the value of human life until after you have children. likeike that to me It's kind of silly. I'm probably never going to have kids and that hit home with me as well.'s not It's human nature, Iz, that when it's something that is similar to you It'll hit a lot easier and harder. I'm not saying that the value of human life means zero and less when it's like, oh wait, that's just like me. That makes a big difference, I think, to people in general. And then in this case, like I said, specifically in terms of understanding the forces at work here. understanding a judicial system that does not prov justice for people of color, understanding the Rampid stereotyping of black people particularly young black men, in this case, not even a young black man, a young black boy, right These are things that LeBron has known about his entire life versus a foreign country is fueling and arming in a conflict in another foreign country, neither of which I've ever seen or could point to on a map It's a little distance Particularly for someone of that age, twenty two years old The other thing about this specifically is again For younger listeners who either weren't of age or weren't even alive when this happened. There was like a huge counter argument to Trayvon Martin's murder that Well, he shouldn' have been wearing a hood Like that somehow the act of wearing a hooded garment was in and of itself a threatening act and that's something that you shouldn't be doing And so it was ridicous I mean, not ridiculous if you're predisposed to find black people threatening. George Zimmerman got away with it in Florida, got away with that crime because there is something in our legal system predisposed to allow white people to find black people more threatening, even if it's just a garment that's making So. And But in tying into that also was the legions of people who are saying things like, yeah, you shouldn't wear a hoodie. It's almost like respectability politics, right? Like o, pull your pants up and stop wearing a hoodie All of these things are The red herrings really, right? It's designed to distract from what happened, which is armed man murdered a child walking home with a bag of candy in and the hoodie's the excuse. So the excuse. And they all what did what do you remember, Izzy about the doing of this? because I understand exactly how this was the cause that reached him as a human, a father, a black man, and then at this point now you become activists, right? Because he hadn't done anything. He hadn't done this. And I remember thinking to myself that, you know, what we want these athletes to be is these voices for a cause, what has been LeBron's cause? And if the cause is simply racism, He and the team took a stance there. If the cause as we go later on becomes police brutality and racism, great. let's do more of that. I want that to be the voice that I want to hear for sports because Dan you wrote in that column, you talked to Jim Brown, and Jim Brown said, the modern day athlete doesn't get behind anything, which means they're wasted a lot of their real power. LeBron is learning that money, fame, popularity, and notoriety pale compared to human feelings and consciousness. And to me, like I don't know if this is because I've just been watching the Vietnam Dark on Netflix, but know the activists, the sports related activists of the sixties and early seventies, like it was an actual cause. There was meaning there. It was not just anti government pro human life, etcet. And it didn't feel like LeBron is finding his lane until maybe right now with the help of the Miami. The other thing about that photo that I find interesting is that it invites invites it because you feel like you're on the right side of a cause. So when you mentioned Jim Brown, first thing I think of is one of the great sports quotes he ever gave me, which is he said, Muhammad Ali did not go from the most hated athlete in America ies, civil rights, all of that stuff. The most beloved athlete in America until he lost his ability to speak power of Jim Brown saying that of Muhammad Ali is the crucible that LeBron is at here and he's not even speaking He's making the statement without speaking, but in that space, to me, it's super interesting where the power ends up going with the choice. And after that he learned something some things that made him sort of back away from what this initially was. Well's let's more localize it, right? Let's move forward two years because in December of twenty fourteen, this is when a white cop in Cleveland had just shot and killed twelve year old boy named Tamir Rice for carrying a toy gun five miles from where the cals played basketball. A grand jury just declined to indict the cop in Ferguson, Missouri, who had killed eighteen year old Mike Brown And a grand jury had also just declined to indict the NYPD cop who killed Eric Gardner in a chokehold as he said, quote, I can't breathe C cabs are playing in New York. LeBron says at the garden about this, quote He says it's a sensitive subject right now. It doesn't matter if you're an athlete or not. If you feel passionate about it, you have the right to speak up on it If not worry about it part to me felt like he just got caught up in the air, didn't know what to say, and then sort of dismissed it at the end. A couple of nights later, the cavs are playing in Brookly protestters outside. Kyrie wants to wear a shirt. Derek Rose wears the shirt that says I can't breathe a little earlier. and Kyrie wants to wear the shirt. LeBron says he wants to wear the shirt and then they come out for warm upps in this t shirt that says I can't breathe. What do you remember I mean about that moment? Yeah. so Eric Garner, as you mentioned, was killed with an illegal chokehold. It's a tactic that was banned by the NYPD. and I think made the Eric Garner killing suuper viscerals. We saw the video. We saw the tape of this man being choked to death. And so when they came out with the t shirts Again, it's one of those things where it's a very easy point A to point B connection point for LeBron because Er Garo was a larger man and that these cops felt like they had to do all this to subdue him. for by the way, he was I think grand crime of selling loose cigarettes illegally. it was a nonviolent thing that the guy was up to and for them to use that level of force to even try to subdue them let alone the taking his life It was shocking and sad and yet all too commonplace and When you talk about that quote, I remember that quote from Leron What I heard was kind of almost like a distilling of what we're talking about If this is something you're passionate about, if it touches you You should be able to come out and talk about it If not, we should not be conscripting people to causes that they don't really That would have been a better quote. But I think it's exactly what you said. He's trying to give the out for people like, look, I don't want people coming to me You know, why haven't you talked about this thing that's happening in Atlantis? that's happening to the seaahorses that like I don't know too much about Atlantis, right? He doesn't want to be conscripted into causes that do not ally resonate. And let's fast forward a year, then. it's december twenty fifteen. A grand jury declines to indict the officers in the death of Tamir Rice. Bron says quote I haven't really been up on this issue, so it's hard for me to comment. I'm not much of a social media guy. I don't have enough knowledge about it. So here he is again saying, let me educate myself about it. When it happened five miles from the Cavs arena, protesters were calling for LeBron to boycott the games, like hashtag, no justice, no LeBron, and Tamir's mom called his non response, quote, quite sad Where was he at this point because that's a bit of a l It is, but let me stand back from this for a second just so that the expectations of this aren't unfairly burdensome. I don't know what you expect from your athletes. I don't know what you expect from your human beings. So LeBron James was a full time basketball player and the inconsistencies you are talking about are not making him to me a part time man of principle They're making him a human being who occasionally is inconsistent, might not be equipped to tackle every single thing and probably didn't quite sign up for when he grabbed a basketball for the first time. I'm going to be the best and most informed thing on every political issue. I just don't know I couldoney it matters to you. makeake me feel like it matters to you. I' in your team with the hoodie down and everything so somber. I feel like it matters to you. When you have a year to discuss what just happened near where you play basketball, where you're probably reading or hearing more about it than anybody else across the country, I would expect at that point for you to have want more and better and it's fair becausecause that's what advocacy looks like. And it's disappointing when someone who has that power fails to reach your level of expectation and disappoints you there. Like I get I get why you'd want it, but wouldn't you get why he would say, hey, it's not my responsibility to go full spectrum on where you reside on this issue I think This one is as I look back at LeBron's career and this part of his career this advocacy This one might be the most confusing one because of everything that Izz said, because it is a young black boy because it was in Cleveland in Northeast Ohio, his neck of the wood, so to speak And for him It seems doesn't seem like you need to educate yourself that much. It follows many of the same tropes of all these other police brutality cases where he did speak up That one is the one that confuses me versus some of the other things. I wonder if Princess Muhammad Ali if he was in a social media era. Would we champion him Thanks for speaking up against any no Viet Cong ever call me Or would we say, Yeahah, but what about like the indigenous people in Australia get face crazy racism out there? You haven't said anything about them Muhammad Ali, which is kind of the culture that LeBron is going up in right now is operating under If I say I like oranges, it' also what about grapefruits? This Tamir Rice. If you've already stood up against racism and against police brutality, evenven if you hadn't dug any deeper into the Tamir rice case itself, this would be the time where I'm like, okay, give me your soliloquey. now is when we want to hear what you have to say about this. And instead he effectively no comments it and never came back. Right. Like it's not even like look, this is awful, da. But I think we all agree Cops shooting kids bad. But what are you guys doing here with is this that much different than the I R Newble petition where he's saying, I'm not saying it's a good mission for him to make and I'm not saying he's right in either saying it or sitting it out. If he doesn't know about something Is he allowed to not know about it and say out loud that he doesn't know about it? or does his public comment on this have to be responsible instead of disappointing because he needs to lie responsible because again of the local proim of it. How can you be ignorant to this None of these like with a year after the Olympics did anybody go back and ask him about what he educated himself on Sudan? No, right? This to me arreice in twenty fourteen It happened in twenty fifteen, you had the time to educate yourself and now we're coming to back around to it and it's just like, hey, what do you got? Nothing. It strains credulity that the first time it arrived to him was when reporters asked him, what about the stir rice? That's the part. It's not one of those things that is obscure, that is So you guys have this as faking your way through that answer in order to avoid the subject matter entirely. That's not okay, That's not how I read that And this was a bad look for him individually. and what is he going to do next? What he has done in the past He's going to call on his teammates thirty three days, thirty three episodes. Join me, Max Rushton and our expert team of socer journalists every dayay of the World Cup for analysis, drama and everything in between. World Cup Daily, listen on Sotify now or watch full episodes on YouTube. to the shot. No Golf is a mental game but you can't focus if you're not comfortable Lululeemon Glf gear frees your mind and your swing with fabrics that breathe, wick sweat and block UV. Streamline cuts clear distractions from your backswing and your follow through. So whether it's the first tee or the last hole, your mind stays where it matters. 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Plus, you can earn one hundred twenty five thousand bonus miles for a limited time through july fifteenth The Delta Sky Miles Rerve Bus card. Check out the new card design at wWW dot delta dot com slash sppotify businessusiness. mininimum spending requirements and terms apppply offer endings july fifteenth, twenty twenty six All guys, we're in twenty sixteen now A lot of things have changed. LeBron starts the year singing Welcome to the Terodome by public Eemy in a Samsung ad He wins a championship, obviously top of his game He won it with Cleveland, which I think elevated him a little bit more than Miami. seventeen days after he won that championship, Alton Sterling is shot on camera in Baton Rouge Less than a day after that. Fando Castillile is shot on camera in Minneapolis Less than a day after that. Five white cops killed at a protest in Dallas. P important protest from the Minnesota links the W NNBA at the time It's a whole notice Th then the Banana Boat crew gets up on stage at the SPs in Tuxedos. And if you don't know who the bana boat crew is, it's Carmo Anthony, It's Chris Paul, It's Day Wade, and it's of course LeBron James. Although Carmelo always points out he was not on the banana. N actually on the boat, He was just on the vacation, but here they are on stage at the SP We all feel helpless and frustrated by the violence We do That's not acceptable. It's time to look in the mirror and ask ourselves. What are we doing to create change It's not about being a role model It's not about our responsibilility for the tradition of activism I know tonight, We' honor Mohammad Ali, the goat too do his legacy any justice. Let's use this moment as a call to action for all professional athletes to educate ourselves, explore these issues, speak up, use our influence, and renounce all violence. And most importantly, go back to our communities, invest our time our resources Hel rebuild them, help strengthen them, help change them. We all have to do better Do you guys think that at that moment when LeBron's reading that, that he's saying, o, they're talking to me I need to do all these things. because isn't this him basically saying, we need to educate ourselves. This is a call to action. We need to use our position. Everything that we're saying we don't necessarily have to put on these athletes, he's saying, Wow I'm putting this on myself. You got the speech writer putting Easter eggs we talking about LeBron basically the whole time and LeBron is't realize it. Well he's reading so clearly there from the prompter I do think the context on some of this They are standing in the middle of America before all of this gets grabbed and held against ESPNna and Disney and becoming the word woke or whatever it is. like the word woke and the weaponization of all that starts around What is ESPN and Disney? What are they doing around this and Caitlin Jenner that's making me uncomfortable and making sports something different than it was. But I'm not totally sure is those four guys are reading that up there that they know exactly what's happening in America or what's coming their way and what they'll have to face if they want to keep speaking up on this stuff. Well the amount of atrocities that I read to you that has happened to young black men or black men in this country, what's happening and they've seen it all and it was just can we have to say something? We are public figures. An all public figures were basically being asked about this if it was in sort of their realm of understanding So then what is the next step on that? okay? When I ask both of you, what's the theory then? If it's that overt and he's that aware of it, why is he doing it that way? Is it because racists buy sneakers too? Is it to protect business? Like what's the accusation you guys are making when he's not allowed to have an ignorance or to be so insulated that he's just an giantly famous rich person I don't know Maybe it is possible that he's not that connected to Cleveland or his hometown, that he's interested in every racial story that people are talking about. I't say that. then this is just a show. This is symbolism and it's just him using his name, but he doesn't really care that much. And this is why I'm saying if you can't care enough to learn about the Tamir Rai situation, then you don't really care. And you are not the athlete that I want to speak on behalf of every other athlete There's always room to educate, right? But I don't know how much more education you need As a black man from Northeast Ohio who grew up in less than ideal conditions, surrounded by other people like that I don't know how much more education you need to hear about twelve year old child shot by police officers. neither of you are answering my question. If it's what you're saying, the way you guys are framing this, it seems like this is inauthentic, doesn't care, not aligned with his principles. How could you not know about this? This is not true. So why would he choose that p? It's going to seem re, it's going to see It's a level of selfishness. It's a level of him putting himself above everything else. He doesn't necessarily have time for other things. I can use my voice and my name for a cause if I think it's going to help. I don't have time to dig in to that cause and everything that comes with it. and there is an element to it of everything that comes with it is way different than it was in the past. There's a lot more at your front door when you do dip your toe This is a part it's pure reckless speculation, right Hold on a second. let me. Let me just find it real quick for you. Forgive me for this for a second to try away all their unouralistic credibility and get Rgless. Here is something we like to call Rgless speculation Sone' got to clear me. You'read, Thankk you. All right. So I think there's a difference between talking about police brutality in New York, police brutality in the suburbs of Saint Louis, Missouri, police brutality in Dallas and Minneapolis. Like those are police departments that I don't have to deal with Cleveland. I got to see them every day So we've got a great guest to discuss LeBron James and all of his activism. Jamell Hill joining us Oh nice. the neighborhood, the friendly neighborhood race lady. Okay, so she is the definitive voice, if you will, in the intersection of sports, activism and politics. She's the contributing writer for the Atlantic. and full disclosure, she worked with LeBron on a docu series literally called Shut Up and dribble, and she's also worked with Colin Kaepernick on a project about his journey, which we'll get to Jamelle in January of twenty eighteen, I don't think a lot of people remember this sort of where the shut upp and dribble came from. Carrie Champion, former ESPN colleague of ours was doing a branded content series produced by Uninterrupted. She got word that LeBron and Katie and Kevin Durant wanted to get together in the backseat of an Uber, and we talked to Carrie about this Watch the video of her with LeBron wararriors said, if we had an invite, we're not going to the White House. LeBron, you called the president aump. Yeah, straight up How do you describe the climate for an athlete with a platform nowadays that want to talk about what's happening in our world W climbing is hot The number one job in America, the point of person is someone who doesn't understand the people and really don't give a fuck about the people. And while we cannot change What comes out of that man's mouth, we can continue to alert the people that watch us, that listen to us as this is not the way. I feel like our team as a country is not ran by a great coach. It's not even a surprise when he says something It's not even surpreds laughable. It's likesgh It's laughable and it's scary. But it's also scary. Be it shouldn't be known to your racist. Right A couple things about that clip Jamel that get me is I've said this a little bit about LeBron. He seems most empowered when he's got a teammate next to him, right? And this with KD is just like feeling like he's really getting into it I felt like once we got in the car, LeBron was very clear that he wanted to state a message. And I don't know if that was because He felt like he was the one that was going to deliver the message and that wasn't necessarily Kie's area because it has not been his his situation. It's not his Kevin Drant is it known for being the person who wants to speak out But I remember LeBron felt very, very intentional. And he could see that both KD and I were very intrigued on his thoughts about the political process and what was going on in this country and how it found its way to intersect with culture and sports But it also, and this is something I said before you jumped on with us, Jamelle, is I want you to make me feel like you care. And in this clip it really feels like a lot of this stuff had finally hit home with LeBron and he was ready to say something about it, which Carrie said afterwards, she was pretty surprised that he was ready to sort of lay it all out there. I remember distinctly Kevin Arant even asking him questions like, wow, you know, that's interesting that that's your point of view I think LeBron came to play in terms of I'm just going to lay it all out on the line. I've already said what I've said before. What I'm saying isn't new. waterater is wet, sky is blue Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of us who see athletes in that position, like he's occupying a very rare air is that Historically he some people consider him to be the greatest ever He is the leader in his sport. He's the face of his league. And that's a pretty co posy position to be in just in the sense that you don't really have to say anything on the political front or the social justice front. and people are just fine with you and there's an argument to be made that maybe you shouldn't given what your stature is. That's what I mean about LeBron kind of growing into the role. Like I think sometimes we have this false assumption or false expectation that as soon as an athlete gets a platform that they should automatically be ready to speak up And if we think about our own voices and our own journey as people who are in media, people who are journalists, it didn't come that way. had to come through experience, had to come through seeing, it had to come through observing. And I think it was the same way with LeBron James. We had reached in his mind, a critical mass point in our country where we had a leader in office who did not respect the office and certainly didn't respect a lot of the constituents in which she was put in charge of governing and I don't know if he knew this was going to be his moment. I know that someomebody in his position has to be kind of calculated about when you speak out, what you choose to speak out on But I think the moment came to him and he decided, you know what? I'm ready right now to really go all the way with my opinions about president in a way that I haven't really engaged politically So when we walked away, I was like, we have something so special What we have seen is an athlete, a generational athlete and others would say arguably the best to ever do it. unapologetically about being a black man in this country, being a black person in this country and what it means and the cost that comes with that He was very clear about, I'm a rich black man, but I live in Brentwood and they let me know that I'm still black, no matter how much money I make, no matter how successful I am, I understand that I am a black man at the end of the day first and foremost. And so when we leftgh I immediately felt like that was very special and significant because and we hate to do comparisons. But no athlete of this caliber had ever done this, especially in basketball. We didn't see Michael Jordan do it. We definitely didn't see Magic Johnon do it. That was a different generation, a different approach. a get along approach. LeBron was like, I'm tenin toes down. I am saying this and I mean it. And so for that in itself, I knew it was historical I do want to get the reaction that got the reaction. Laura Ingrham on Fox News reacted this way M they run their mouths like that, unfortunately, a lot of kids and some adults takeake these ignorant comments seriously Look, there might be a cautionary lesson in LeBron for kids This is what happens when you attempt to leave high school a year early to join the NVA And it's always unwise to seek political advice from someone who gets paid one hundred million dollars a year. to bounce a ball. Oh and LeBron and Kevin You're great players, but no one voted for you. Millions elected, Trump to be their coach. So keep the political commentary to yourself O as someone once said shut up and dribble Must today dan Man, that triggered you, didn't it? I'm not racist. They're liy. They're liy. It's not that I'm racist. I thought that they was doing a lot of work right there. But that sounds even worse now. I've said this before and you know just to give you all kind of a full view of this. So at the time, I was already working on shut up and dribble, but it wasn't called shut up and driribble. a nebulous project that frankly There was some difficulty in finding what the story actually was. To be honest, it was a little all over the place. We knew that we wanted something with sports and social justice and looking at the history of activism And there was nothing really tying the story together And as soon as Laura Inraham says, shhut up and driribble, it was like We got h So give her a lot of credit and I thank her because kind gave her. She gave us the structure that we needed to finish the piece because we while we had a lot of great material, great interviews, great footage, It wasn't cohesive yet until she said thats so Thank you, Laura. I appreciate it. Well, where does LeBron though disappoint you here the way that he disappoints Izzy because you want him to care a little more? And where is fair to put the expectations for him, Jamell when we just showed you a clip in which he was talking about Trump and offering no expectation on Kevin Durant, who didn't seem to have much of anything to say next to him becausecause it's often fair not to think that every single athlete should have an opinion exactly like yours. And so we don't expect anything from Kevin Durant on this front, do we No, all of the focus and attention is on LeBron. And you know, I have to admit, this is a question I struggle with all the time, whether or not it is an obligation or whether or not it should be something that you have to be led to do. Depending on the situation, I could land on either side of it. And that is just because I recognize the inherent unfairness of the fact that not just black athletes but black people in general who did not create racism, who did not create white supremacy are then forced to be the ones to bring all the solutions to the table The other ones forced that create the conversations and the dialogue. All of it is on us and we're the ones who are most victimized by what is happening. And to me What it does is weaponize a certain level of incompetence around people who are not Right? It's like it allows people to happily be ignorant and they're never tasked and never get the responsibility of having to do and ask something more. becausecause No white athlete is ever going to be assed kind of question. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Like they're not going to be asked like, well, what do you say to The white people who say this, they're not asked for the accountability of what other white people do. And black people are asked to be accountable for not only what black people say, but for what white people say. And when I think about it in that context, it allows me, even in moments where I wish an athlete, where I wish LeBron would have been stronger on something. like yeah, I still remember what he said about Tamir Rice. To me, that was a missed opportunity and a failed moment. But at the same time I have to then have a dialogue with myself and say, am I asking too much? This man is here to play basketball. He didn't sign up to be some kind of activist leader even though he's in a position to have the most change because by nature of his influence So I think we also have to understand it in that context Lets Let's fast forward to twenty nineteen twenty because we haven't even gotten to COVID. So we've got LeBron first he's a laker. We should know this stays quiet when Daryryl Mury shows his support for Hong Kong. the Lakers are playing in China. That same season, Kobe passes away CoVID starts the MBA stops And then a Minnesota cup kneels on the neck of George Floyd for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds k him. LeBron posts side by side photos of Derek Chauvin kneeling and Colin Kappernick knneeeling to his Instagram followers, and he says, Do you understand now? or is it still blurred to you That summer. He started the more than a vote campaign Now we're in the bubble. This is just while they're in the bubble. A Wisconsin cop shoots Jacob Blake seven times in the back. Cal Rittenhouse shoots two protests with an assault rifle, The bucks go out strike, and so all of sports go on strike LeBron gets annoyed And he walked out of a players only meeting, supposedly because it was kind of all over the place. But then he calls up Obama with Chris Paul, Carmelo, Russell Westbrok and Andre Guala, and they demand action from the owners. E even Michael Jordan got a call. But then LeBron, what did he do? He just played basketball and won a championship. So I'm not sure, Jamel, what you make of what he did there Did he do much while it was there at his doorstep and the whole world was watching? or was it just more of him just kind of I don't know group thinking and just kind of going with whatever everybody else said I mean, I think the players were understandably emotional, but because of the situation with the lockdown being in the bubble, I don't think they honestly knew what to do And they knew that they felt something, they knew that something wasn't right. they knew that something needed to change, but I don't think they actually had an organized plan of how they needed to change it. And that's really no fault of theirs. They're not professional activists. Like if we go back and look at the Montgomery busus boycott, for example, that was plotted strategize execute it. Two years. And I don't know why we think on the fly that Black athletes should be able to create a national movement or create like some kind of substantive change without research without strategy, without talking to people on the ground. like that was just all happening in real time and they reacted very emotionally. And I know that they called Obama trying to get some leadership and If I recall, one of the main things, you know, his point was that they still needed to play, that people still needed to see them I kind of disagree with that, but you know, it's their careers, it's not mine. so I understood his perspective, but I think it was one of those things where I'm not sure LeBron knew what to do. and I think that's fine too Why was that not fine on Tamir rice I think for When you look at the situation and Again, I don't know if today LeBron would have that same response. Naturally, just because LeBron is in his position, that doesn't mean he can't internalize someome of the same damaging tropes that affect all of us because we're conditioned in this country You know, a lot of times because we're used to violence happening so frequently, whether it be state section violence, or intra community violence within the Back community, our immediate thought process is how could they have prevented their own demise. And so instead of saying, yo, it's wrong for a trained professional to not know the difference between a toy gun and a real gun. And in this situation, to be so panicked and scared. and with that I don't even say panickic and scared because that lets him off the hook. but to react that recklessly instead of putting the onus on the adult DeBron's default was or his go to response was, this is why I don't let my kids play with guns. I was like, it's not about the guns is about this system of violence that seems completely sanctioned Bye not just our country. by a system that is supposed to be protecting us And so Just because you're LeBron James doesn't mean that you can't internalize oppression like everybody else Would you say the largest victory for LeBron in terms of just public stance when he dips into the political world was in the twenty twenty election? Because we read your column from the Atlantic and after Trump lost in twenty twenty, and you wrote, quote, The election is a clear demonstration of why athletes should use their public platform to advocate for justice and democracy. Now that black athletes have seen how powerful their voices can be, the stick to sports narrative may be gone for good. I don't know if that ended up actually happening, but was this LeBron? did not no, it didn't end up She got that one wrong. She and it's for all time and you just read it right to her face. But did he pick a villain and at least defeat that villain for the time being It worked for the time being, and now that we look back on what's happened over the course of five years. And it's funny because I think I did write this for the Atlantic for twenty twenty four. I'm pretty sure that I did leading it to the twenty twenty four election about all that momentum that was gained in twenty twenty. And I realized it was a very unique moment, not just because of COVID, but because you actually had two pretty outspoken leagues that were both all were in both leagues that being the WNBA and the NBA where all the players were actually together. It's so much easier to organize when everybody's there, right? And so you had that And you had the fact that you had players in the street who were protesting when George Floyd was murdered. And so it was a very rare time that you would see that. And so my Obviously your assumption was that that was something that would be a blueprint that would show them that it works and twenty twenty four rolled around And you barely heard from athletes in the political space. I did not see many of them if any, I'm struggling to think right now campaigning for Kamala Harris or just Even encouraging people to vote. You saw some things here and there like I know the NFL ran something, but that same energy that was there in twenty twenty was not there at all in twenty twenty four. We back two years to twenty twenty two actually, and that's we actually read a reread Will Leach column in New York magazine in which this was just before the midterms in twenty twenty two, which she was a Lebron didn't respond when JD Vance called him vile. so he wasn't really going back and forth. The more than a vote campaign thing kind of grew quiet. And then there was this quote from it. He said surely athletes saw how much shit James was taking and concluded Totally understandably No thanks And so he was kind of a human shield for a lot did die down there because of that twenty twenty victory. And it's just like, hey,re sort of a yeah, we're in a victory lap mode. Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of it. And I also think that Sometimes the examples of what the consequence can be can feel louder than the examples of what the progress is You look at Colin Kaepernick and I contend of the many ways that he was let down was because none of the players really stood up for him. You know, like of course some imitated his demonstration But you needed players en masse in far more massive numbers, not necessarily protesting. Even if you didn't protest, you at least needed to let it be known, it is not okay E o and to suppress somebody for expressing this kind of belief And they didn't do that and they didn't protect their own rights to speak up. And as a result The NFL was able to quickly get them in order And so I think the same thing kind of happened with LeBron is that even though No, L bar didn't lose any money. You know, he didn't lose a contract. He didn't lose his job. He's still a great player. He's still celebrated But it got it permanently in political crosshairs And that's where a lot of players don't want to be. L every time if LeBron says anything related to any kind of social justice or expresses any kind of political opinion, it's going to be content on Fox for weeks. And a lot of players They just don't want to smoke. I think you might have gotten a piece of that wrong though. I think the China thing did cost it money And I think getting close to the fire on the sneaker stuff made him say, I'm not going to talk anymore about anything that I don't know anything about I think that's a fair assessment. So yeah, I mean, I stand corrected. I think when you're dealing with something as complicated as that as a geopolitical issue is that We know that there are there are ways in which you don't have to Always involve yourself. You got to pick your spots Obviously that was very much tied to the NBA and how they make money And did LeBron lose some credibility there I think it's fair to see it that way I thought it was his worst public moment. To me that was that than Tamir Rice? thought I thought it was more public. I don't know why. I saw more of it than I saw the Tamir Rice response. I think I think it was the conflict of interest, right? Like it was the clear conflict of interest of there's a reason why he's not going to be vocal on this and it's not because he's not educated enough although that would have been I guess an understandable statement to. It's because, hey This is where my bread is buttered. I'm not about to kill that golden goose. He was triaging his priorities live as we were wor. Yeah. And I think that to see someone compomromised So so clearly. I think that's what makes it a more jarring thing than Tamir Rice Meanwhile, this was kind of more It was, first of all, it has already been a huge story Because Darl Mory was really the kicking off point because the NBA was a kicking off point and then the hypocrisy of people saying, Oh, the NBA is in bed with China as if the rest of America isn't. And it's not as if he was interviewed the second after he saw the tweet. had time to come up with something and he was still just caught you guys are doing something interesting here because I would understand why Jamel would say and sound almost hurt in saying it more than Tamir Rice. That one hurt you guys more than Tamir Rice because onn behalf of look, I don't want to speak for black people, but on that one, LeBron, we wanted you to We wanted you to at the very least know, come down from the bubble or the Iivory tower and be like acknowledge here that you have some knowledge of this. Like the hurt in that is different than a world away and some political you know, weaponized thing that making money off of the atrocities that happened in Cleveland. He was making money despite the atrocities that are happening happening And also my I wouldn't say ur I would just say it was a. bigigger kind of fiasco of a moment That's not my personal pain or disappointment in him. That's just knowing the gravity of that situation for the exact reason that he justescaave W exactly. And there was I think that's what makes the Tamir Rice moment more disappointing because there was no money at stake for LeBron James. There was nothing at stake. It would have cost him nothing to say something. And listen, everybody's compromised. Let's just keep this real. Like we're all compromised in some respect But with China, as Amainj just said earlier, America is compromised. This is not just an NBA issue The running joke is don't let China cash the check. L That's about our whole country. the level of At least to some degree I can understand when you are compromised better than when you aren't. No, you've absolutely changed my mind on this. The Tamir Rice was his worst situation because of what I said earlier that people might not remember. It was after the sentencing that he had this. So it was a year later that he had time to think about it, to do research on it, and he still effectively no comment at it. So you're right, I've switched my thought. The China's situation is his second most embarrassing public moment So where are we now with LeBron James? He's obviously the imperfect spokesman, but he is still very much a spokesman for athletes, for black men. Where are we Jamell with LeBron and sort of gauging his public persona when he gets out there in terms of politics? desespite his missteps that he's had both globally and domestically, I do think that people will generally view him as somebody who cared and as somebody who tried to do the right thing We can debate whether or not that's good enough, whether that is too low of a bar But When you think about all the expectations, all the pressure that has been on him since he was literally a teenager, I think it has more to be proud of than in the social activism space thenen he does it. and I think that's probably all we can really ask for given that Aivism is not his first job You know, there are are plenty of athletes who be mantle of being a face in the league and don't really do shit with it. Listen, a lot of Kobe Bryad's awareness didn't come too late in his career. okay? Because like my entire relationship with Kobe started because of comments I felt were toneed deaf that he said about Trayvon Martin. But I think because myself and other people called him out about it, it caused him to look at the issue differently. And then after that He became very involved. in Trayvon Martin's parents, the foundations and the activism that they did. And my last interview with him, when I asked Kobe If he were still playing in the NBA and when Colin Kapernick took a knee and he said he would. And I don't know if you get that answer from Kobe five years in or seven years in or even ten years into his career So it just shows you that These guys are learning in real time about what it means to have that platform and they are going to get it a right sometimes and there's going to be a couple of ones they wish they had back But if you're LeBron, when your career is done I think he will be able to positively stand on his record as somebody who tried to do the right thing most of the time Jamell, last thing before we let you go. You did this whole interview. Behind you is a bunch of shoes and a box that says Jion Chi and I'm just wondering how much do you think much do you think the shoes behind you costs if you total them up? See, You know what, Izy, this is why I hate That quest That's wrong. I hate this question. First of all, let me just say this, these are not all my shoes. Only half On the what would be to my right, those are all my husband's shoes My shoes are here on the left. wow. Wow. what just happened there was Izzy was saluting your man's shoes and putting the trope on you. Yeah. right. Exactly. The G Oh actually No, yes, the Gch box, That's his. That ain't mine. He, look, you're the only person there. I see a bunch shoes and I'm assuming they're yours so my badel them But the reason I hate this question is because my mother told me to stop doing interviews in hard dress in room because she's like people go look at your shoes and judge you and they w. right. So right And look at that. Look at always listen to mom Yes. And the next time I do an interview, which y'all I'll be doing it for doing it for my family dollar closet, which is around the corner. Or the old Navy sh. Thank you, Jabelle. Thanks Jelle. All right. Thanks guys Okay, so the homework for this week, It's an actual book we're reading. It's called There's Always This Ye on Basketball and Ascension. It's by Hanif Adorba Keib He's a poet, a MacArthur genius, a finalist for the National Book Award, an Ohio native, and he'll join us on the season finale There will be a quiz