Finding Hope and Future Engagement

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And it's fascinating to me that you are very religious, you believe in God. Because typically I think that mathematicians lean more towards atheism. The great pioneers of modern science were all believers in God. And I've interrogated myself about its truth. For over seventy years. I've made myself totally vulnerable and I find that Christ offers me something nobody else offers me. Peace in my heart. The peace of knowing that I have real forgiveness. Things like, for example, others met people, even in death row and. And I never forget looking through the door of a Russian security death row. I went up to the door. And the chap came over and looked at me. He killed twelve women. He said I deserve to be here. And then his face just into what I can only describe as a ghastly smile. And he said I met Jesus here and he forgave me. So on this point of forgiveness with the serial killer be forgiven and allowed into heaven. And then how do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to is true? So I have had several experiences enough to tell me look this stuff is real. Okay, so Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. It's the algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also it's the simple easy free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so so much. Linux. Yes. You've published over seventy peer reviewed mathematical papers, co-authored two research text at the um Oxford Mathematical Monograph Series. And you've really become a pioneer in many domains through your career, but for anyone that doesn't know you What is the most important context they need to understand the reference points, experience, education? Pulling on. That is gonna inform all of the subjects we talk about today. You mean I've written a number of papers, I got a certain amount of international recognition. I uh chair Oxford and all the rest of it. But I think The real value of that. really saying that mathematics works. The fact that it works is for me one of the strongest evidences that this is what I call a word based universe. We can use mathematics to describe things about how the universe works. Thinking God's thought after him, Kepler's famous statement. But also We've lived to see. a biological revolution where we discover biology's word based as well with the human genome. And that to me Resonates. with the explanation given in both the Old Testament and the New Language. Child Muscot's fault. In the beginning was the word. I am I don't know a ton about the Bible. I do come from a religious family, so with um Right, okay. We grew up as Christians. I think I I lost my faith faith at about eighteen years old 'cause you know I mean my my brothers are Extremely good at math. Rational thinking, maybe to a fault. I think maybe I am a little bit too. I am too. You are. This too I find it so fascinating 'cause you know, typically the scientific community lean more towards atheism. Typically I think that m mathematicians lean more towards atheism. Just to sense check if that's true or not, we'll throw the numbers up on the screen. So I f I find that a to be a fascinating conversation, which I'm looking forward to have with you today. Interestingly, you wrote this book and The word A I is on it. It says God AI and the end of history. Why are you so Concern, dare I say. about artificial intelligence as a leading pioneer in math maths and sort of philosophical thinking. Well, because I'm interested in the bigger picture. Anything. Raises questions about The nature of human identity. And I was first struck by the drive for artificial general intelligence that's really become One of the it looks as if it's the prime motivation of people like Sam Altman and so on, that is really hitting the headlines. But Within that There's the notion of transhumanism. What does that mean? The idea is that we go beyond the human. one of our f most famous astronomers, Royal. This way, he says in the distant future it won't be organic brains, it'll be machine brains. And he seriously believes, as do a number of scientists who are not science fiction authors. There will be some kind of merger. between humanity and machines, to have a transhuman, something that's beyond the human. And something that is, they hope, super intelligent. All the human properties and much more. No. One of the people who's spreading the is the Israeli historian Uval Noah Harari, and he's written a book called Homodeus, The Man God. And that really made me prick up my ears because I know enough about this book here, the Bible, to realise that The drive for humans towards Self deification. Self defication. Yes. Making themselves gods. And you see it all through history. The ancient Babylonian emperors were regarded as gods. The Roman Emperors started calling themselves gods and all the rest of it. And what Harari says Is The twenty first century has two big purposes. Number one To solve the problem. physical death as a technical problem. To solve death. Yes, solve death. Physical death is, in his view, technical problem and we'll solve it. The second agenda item and he calls them agenda items for the twenty first century. is to increase human happiness by bioengineering Cyborg engineering, mechanical implants, all this kind of thing, and turning humans quote. Gods with a small G. In other words, this is the drive for a super intelligent human. We've only got started. And his point is And from his atheist perspective, one can understand it immediately. Evolution. Unguided natural processes have brought us to this point. Now we're going to take it into our hands and we're going to engineer humanity into the future. very rapidly to approach this superhuman. Thing. Now I hear that and I see that. I see that as huge implications. for one of the fundamental teachings that's behind, I would argue. Western civilization. And that is the notion Humans. Like us. are made in the image of God as rational moral beings. Now, I got into this because some Christian leaders wanted to have a conference on AI. And they wanted it introduced From someone who knew something about teaching. of the image of God in Genesis. And who had a scientific background and who could perhaps begin to lead them in to what was going on in the AI field around. And once I got into it, I realized this is a seriously important thing because We haven't got to artificial general intelligence yet. That's still a pipe dream. It's improving all the time. But we've got far enough. That is to what's called narrow AGI, which most of the stuff that works is. That is posing a threat. Two human beings at all kinds of levels. And I began to see that that was seriously important for everybody to take on board. So I wrote Two books, one twenty twenty. Called uh twenty eighty four is the title of my book. Artificial intelligence and the future of humanity. And then The publishers asked me to update it in twenty twenty four, so there's a second edition twice as big. And it is my main work on AI. That is not. That is the work on the book of Revelation with reference to AI. The other is directly going into AI, pointing out its values, which I think are immense, particularly immense and but pointing out its dangers which I think are immense, for bringing about a state in the world that none of us, I think, want. So let me just give some definitions then. Yeah, sure. You use the term narrow AI. Yes. Um, my definition of that is and I'll put something on the screen for those of you watching. AI that's focused on solving a very particular problem. So AI is that might Lung cancer or that do some s sort of um biometric data on your Apple Watch, very focused on solving a particular problem. A. Is artificial general intelligence, which is what's being built at the moment, and all the big AI companies are in a race to accomplish, which is a machine that could do any intellectual task a human can faster than any human, um, and would be super intelligent. So, you know, may maybe one way to think about it. It would have a PhD in everything. That's a very fair summary. Narrow AI system does one and only one thing that normally requires human intelligence. AGI does a lot. You wrote this book twenty eighty four. You highlighted in there some of the concerns that you think are being overlooked in this race for AGI at the moment. Well they're not overlooked by everybody. There is huge concern There's been a very interesting book published not long ago by Karen Howe. How was she missing? Well there you are. And she has got some very interesting metaphors. The pursuit of the machine god. Which I think is a brilliant summary of what's going on. And I found it very illuminating because she's obviously got very close to the the major operators in this. But if I step back from it. I look at the AI like a knife. A good knife you can use it for surgery or you can use it for murder. And that leads us into it immediately. AI narrow brilliant for picking out the terrorist in a football crowd. also brilliant for suppressing a minority in China. bringing in a totalitarian state through social credit systems and all the rest of it. And In a way. We're sleepwalking into a future. where we are gradually ceding control. An information. And data all the time. Which could be used by bad actors against us. And this is the problem. I I really this question of um what it means to be human in a world of AI, I think has been really front of mine for a lot of people and like where do we live or exist or find our purpose in a world where theoretically these super intelligent systems will reach AGI, which means they're more intelligent theoretically than any human on earth. But at the same time you've got these other advancements in technology like humanoid robots. Mm-hmm. By these humanoid robots, there was a live stream I've talked about a few times, and I'll just throw it up on the screen really quickly. That shows last week a humanoid robot working on a production line for eight days straight. And they show it up against a human being and it beats the human being on the production line 'cause it doesn't need to sleep. It just needs to be charged um for a couple of hours to fill power. And so you combine these two forces, superintelligence. And the disruption. One is disrupting This thing here, the brain. and the intelligence within the brain. And then the other technology that's em emerged at the same time is disrupting My muscles and my my mechanics. And the two come together. To make it Walla. Absolutely. So you face joblessness at all kinds of levels. And people are only going uh beginning to realise the implications of that. And not just low level repetitive jobs as high level jobs like lawyers and There's a deep Satan. ethical problem running through all of this. And it's a very simple one. It's that Technology advances much faster than the ethics that's needed to underpin it. The difficulty is the people that of all the power have Well say, Well we need some ethical control of all of this, but we need to get on with the research to make it safe for you. So let us get on with it. You can be a bit sceptical about the motivation there. It's a colossal power grab. And I do feel that uh the Christian faith has a great deal to say to this Arms race if you like. The Power that is being Forced in to having a technology that becomes the ultimate source of truth. Those two concepts power and truth clashed centuries ago in a very famous trial. And it's the trial of Jesus. And I used to wonder a lot, you know Why is there such detail about the trial of Jesus? Until I realised What it was about. Jesus was put on trial for political terrorism, to put it in modern terminology. He was a threat. to the Roman power base. And Pilate, the governor at the time. put him on trial and conducted the trial himself, which was most unusual, and said, Are you a king? And Jesus looked at him and said, Well, not in the sense you mean. To this end I was born, and to this end I came into the world that I would bear witness to the truth. And Pyland famously responded, What is truth? And went out and declared Jesus innocent of the charge. And then he said. Don't you know I have power to crucify you? Jesus quietly said. You would have no power against me unless it's been given to you from above. So there's one of the most famous confrontations between power and truth. And that statement Jesus made I have come to bear witness to the truth. I regard that as the main motivation for my life. I'm trying to bear witness to truth as I see it, at all kinds of levels, in my own limited way. And that's what bothers me about AI. It's a reductionist. We're reducing people to machines. And you said to me A few moments ago. that flagged up a thing in my mind that's very important. We need to be very clear what AI is and what it isn't. This is a machine. Machines do not Machines do not have qualia. They do not understand the redness of red. They do not experience emotion. They have no consciousness. And you see, I believe that the genius of God is that he's made you and me. And he's connected. En us. Consciousness. And intelligence. The machines are not conscious. They simulate intelligence. The experts are very clear that they're not trying to construct intelligence for a very simple reason. They have no idea what consciousness is from a scientific point of view. Trying to simulate intelligence and go as far. as they can. And therefore The danger is we anthropomorphise everything. We treat them as if they're conscious beings. And we need to step back and realize that we are conscious beings. And that gives us a supreme dignity and value to reduce ourselves to merely machines or on the other hand merely animals is to demean our value. And then where are you going to get value from? I've got a quote here that's um linked to what you just said that's from Yovel Noah Harari you mentioned. He says humans are now hackable animals. Yes. The whole idea that humans have this soul or spirit and they have free will and nobody knows what's happening. Is Over. And Sam Altman said the most successful founders Do not set out to create companies, they're on a mission to create something closer to a religion. And at some point it turns out that forming a company is the easiest way to do so. And lastly, a former Google engineer said, What is going to be created will effectively be a god. It's not a god in the sense that it will make lightning or cause hurricanes. There is something a billion times smarter than the smartest human. else. Can you call it? It's odd. Thank you for quoting that because I was going to quote it to you. the the Sabalt's point about uh about making a religion. And that is what is happening, and people have pointed out the obvious. Here you have a system even now. that has got some of the qualities we normally associate with God. It appears to be omniscient. You can ask it any question. is omnipresent through the internet, et cetera, et cetera. And therefore already. There are worship groups to worship AI. And some people welcome this and say, Well, this is the way we should go and other people say, Just wait a moment. There's something very strange going on here. And in the end you are Bowing down to something that in the end is idolatrous because it is less than God. But it's very tempting to do that. I mean people are basically praying to it now. They're confiding in a in a way that they might have. And you know I I'm fascinated by this. I've never seen one of these before, but I like it. I tell you why I like it. So for people that can't see what we're doing, it's a brain. It's a brain. And it's got two halves. And One of the people who've influenced my thinking about AI a lot. Is uh Dr. Ian McGillchrist, the author of this fascinating book called The Matter with Things. And he has studied The fact that this brain has two hemispheres. Two halves. Both halves are involved in almost every cognitive event, but the two different halves Different ways of paying attention to the world. One is narrow focus, the left side of the brain, and the other is the big picture. And he says what has happened historically in the West is for the last five or so hundred years, we have concentrated on the narrow, rationalist, reductionist left side of the brain. And we've forgotten the right side that contextualizes everything, so that, quote, We now find ourselves in a world where we understand how almost everything works, but we know the meaning of nothing. What he calls for is to open the sphere up. And of course that includes to beauty, culture, art, music. And religion. by step. He appears to be creating more room for God. God. Makes sense. Of the space he feels is very necessary. And I find that absolutely fascinating. probably notice the two, the number of intellectuals who are step by step taking The Christian faith more seriously as giving A rational account of what's going on. makes very big sense of the big picture. What is going on in society because it does feel like more and more people are Have these sort of existential questions about meaning, and they might be turning to Christianity or Islam or other. But what is From a thirty thousand foot perspective. Which is making us ask some of these questions. And for, you know, younger generations, it might be spirituality, however they define that. But there's certainly a m a a macro picture here of something happening. Oh there is. Uh I agree with you entirely. And I think it's because we've had pushed at us for too long. very reductionist view of the world. It's nothing but physics and chemistry. It's nothing but this is that. People rightly feel it's too small a world to live in. They're looking to break out of this. Isn't there a bigger picture? Can make sense of my world. And make sense of my life and giving some meaning. Because if you reduce everything, it ends up in a black hole. Of meaninglessness. And that's one of my reasons for not being an atheist because it destroys rationality by almost by definition. Because it tells me that my brain Which does all the thinking. It's not my mind. It's connected and those are two different things and that's another big story. But this is the end product of a mindless, unguided uh process. And I have fun with scientists, you know, sometimes I ask them Uh about the brain and how it arose and they tell me something like that. And I said And you trust it. Help me. If the computer that you use every day If you knew it was the end product of a random process. Would you trust it? Every single scientist, and some of them are very high powered, that I've asked that question to have said, no, I would not. So I say, you've got a problem, haven't you? Your atheism goes too far. It undermines the very rationality we need. to do science, let alone to believe in atheism. And that's my main beef with people like Richard Dawkins and the new atheists, but I see they're fading. They're fighting. So here's the irony. Atheism, claiming rationality, destroys it. Whereas I believe the Christian faith also claims rationality in all in the sense that Evidence based. We shout about that a lot in science and medicine, and rightly so. What we trust in ought to be evidence based. I claim exactly the same thing for Christianity. And that's why I'm a Christian, because I believe the evidence supports it. Otherwise I wouldn't. So I guess uh how do I Identify. Maybe as someone that's agnostic, like I'm s I don't really know. Well that's okay. Does that mean you're open to know? You'd like to know? Yes. Well that's I'm always open. That's that's wonderful to see. That's that seems to me to be exactly the right It should be. Jesus actually challenged someone in his day and says if anyone Wants to do the will of God he shall know. Teaching. Whether I'm speaking from myself or whether it's from God. I notice what he doesn't say. He doesn't say if anyone wants to know he will know. If anyone wants to do, he will know. And the difference between the two. And I'd be interested in your response to it is Being prepared to do something when you know it. is more than just knowing it and possibly just leaving it on the table. In all the words Jesus is interested in people who are going to take the step of trust and following him. And that's the big deal. Do you what it is? I find all I find all the explanations as to like the bigger picture to be like fundamentally incomplete. Yes. Because there's many things you said about the nature of Christianity and religion that I go, amazing, yes, yes, yes. And then there's a couple of things I go, Oh, well. Uh and the same when I sit here with a physicist that's telling me about the big bang. Yeah. I have the same thing where I'm going, Yes, yes, of course, yes. Oh, we've got evidence that the universe is expanding. Okay, mate. And then they'll say other things and I go, Wow. That's not complete. And so I find myself sat on the fence. I would love you to convince me. I mean, it's not your responsibility to do so, but Where does that journey of believing begin for someone like me. Because you know, people say the Bible and I go, Well, it's kinda like what you said about the computers. It's like If you're using something to justify the same thing is true, then that circular reasoning I find to be incomplete. Cause I could write on this piece of paper. Uh Stephen Butler is a lizard. Yes. And Piece of paper is true. And then You then use that same piece of paper to justify the r validity of that same piece of paper. Mm-hmm. And I was that that's not solid reasoning. No. But you see I could say Stephen Bartlett. There's a red Ferrari f parked in the streets. Yeah. And it's yours if you want to take it. We can sit and discuss it. For a thousand years. You would never know whether I was true or not unless you went and looked. And it seems to me The word sceptic is a very interesting one. I regard myself as a sceptic, but in Greek skeptime. Means to look at something from a distance. No. If you are ever going to get to know a to begin to give up. distance. You will know that from everyday life. And it seems to me one of the things to try to begin to grasp is God is not a proposition. Or a philosophy, or even a religion. God is a person. As a person, he has entered our world, however incredible that may seem, although This is the irony of the Harari position, if I might just say it on the side. People come to me, as they've done with their transhumanist agenda and say, you know, we're gonna solve the problem of death and we're gonna increase human happiness. And I look at them And I smile and I say, You're too late. say what we haven't got there yet I said you're too late what do you mean we're too late I said the problem of physical death was solved when God raised Christ from the dead twenty centuries ago. And as for human happiness and uploading us into eternity. You know, I'm waiting for the biggest uploading that's ever gonna happen in history when Christ returns and raises me from the dead, because that is precisely what he promises. And it's most interesting watching people. And I say, Isn't it fascinating? That your transhumanism consists in Humans reaching out to become little gods. Whereas Christianity is the exact opposite. It talks about a God who became human. So that he could Give us life and give us a new relationship with him. What really completes the circle for me? Is that My relationship with God is a relationship Which is based On the solution. And that is the problem that I By nature. Have not always done good. By my own standards I've failed. Now all this talk of transhumanism, AI and everything else, what it's trying to do is to build paradise, utopia, without facing the problem of the damage that humans have caused to themselves and one another. They will not face the sin problem. to me doesn't compete with any anything else. Because Christ offers me something nobody else offers me. Nobody else offers me peace, the peace of knowing that I have real forgiveness. peace of knowing that I have a friend and a companion to whom I can talk all the time. That's been so meaningful in my life as I spell out in detail my autobiography. And the peace of having been given a new life. That will not end when I die. I'm eighty two now. I'm probably more than twice as old as you are. As I look towards the future, I have in my heart a certainty that Not because I've merited it. The exact opposite. Because I couldn't merit it. Because Christ has done something for me through the cross and the resurrection that may sound all mumbo jumbo at the moment. But has done something that enables me to have a relationship that is secure. Floods over the whole of life, and has made my life what it is for the last Seventy years more or less. I think everybody Especially in a world that's getting increasingly lonely and disconnected and isolated for many reasons. is looking for that secure relationship. They are. They're looking for their own, you know A home that can't fall down. Yes. Yes, and a piece that doesn't fade and a an inheritance that doesn't exactly right. If I could choose that, if I could press the button and have it. I would have it, but there's this other part of my brain which will naturally interrogate whether it's real. Well, you're absolutely right. Why am I sitting in front of you talking about this stuff? Because I've interrogated myself about it and its truth. For Over seventy years. I've made myself totally vulnerable. That's why I got into all the debates with new atheists and all the rest of it. Because I want to be sure. But it won't come about by pressing a button. It will come about. If you're open enough to say, God, I'm open. Reveal yourself to me, and I'm prepared to take the steps. I feel are leading me onto solid ground. I do not believe that this is a process of taking a leap into the dark, but it's making a commitment on the basis of what you know already and taking a step further forward. And uh the interesting thing about this is Trust that's at the heart of everything. I trust my wife. I've been married fifty eight years this year. It's evidence based trust. I don't trust for no reason. And uh the same is true of my friends, as would be the case with you. Evidence based trust in science. And in Christian things. I don't regard myself as religious particularly, and the reason is this. And it's an important reason. Most religions prescribe a moral way that you try to follow And you've teachers, gurus, imams, all the rest, priests. They keep you on the way and then you come to a judgment. At the end, and I usually draw a scale of justice. And if you're good deeds tip over the bad deeds, then you get in to whatever it is, heaven, nirvana, all the rest of that's religion. It's not Christianity. Though many people think it is. Because if you ask them Are you a Christian and say, Well I do my best and I hope that God will be kind. Christianity. It's the exact opposite of Christianity. That's a merit based religion. And you see The irony of all this. Is We would never, at least I don't know some people might, but in a human relationship. We don't base our affection and relationship with someone on the basis of their merit. I have a little analogy I use that sometimes tickles people's minds. I say that I met a beautiful girl. On my second day at Cambridge. I'd been warned she might be there, and she was sitting in church. And I decided that I'd like to marry her, so I bought the most expensive cookery book I could. And uh I came and I handed it to her and she said, What's that? Well I said, You know, we have a interesting tradition in our family, you see. Uh and if anybody gets married, they give the potential bride a cookbook. Why? Well, look at page a hundred and fifty two. Here's the The laws for making an apple cake and I like apple cake, so law one, two, two, two take so much flour, sugar, and sugar. No, I said it's gonna be like this. If you keep those rules. the next let's be generous, forty years or so, I will accept you. Otherwise you can go back to your mother. Now when I say that to audit, they rock about with laughter. But it's exactly the way. Many of them have been taught to think about God. the rules as best as you can. And hope. That God is generous. When actually I did no such thing. I've given my wife several cookbooks. They're not the basis of the relationship. And because the relationship is based on acceptance that comes at the start of the common journey. It sets her free to live and do other things that she wants to do. And I have noticed often that once people begin to realise that they're beginning to understand the basic concept which is grace. God. Does everything. And if we trust him. He it is that gives us the certainty. So it's not arrogance to accept it from him. arrogance actually to reject them. Say, Oh no, no, I'll go my own way and I'll try my best and hope that you will accept me. part of the Christian message, which I believe is there. is that the trust is based on what someone else has done, what Christ has done. Not what I have done. And that's what's given me the power. And as I said earlier, completed the circle and enabled me To live. That was a a really beautiful description and definition of w what the Christian faith is about. It still leaves me with a question about whether it's true. And this is the sort of c central question that I need to find my way over. Yeah, I agree with you. Absolutely. But and this is I find myself often I've sat with a few um like Christian apologists and asked them similar questions about like how do I know if it's true? And I guess so so so far I've got, you know, if there's a red Ferrari outside, you have to go outside and see for yourself. That's the only way you're gonna know. But w what How do you know that this thing you've committed yourself to and you've believed and you know talked about for seventy years of your life? Is true. And could it be the case that it's not true? Okay, let's handle that. That's a hugely important question. two approaches to this, which I call roughly speaking objective and subjective. And it depends entirely where someone's coming from. They may start very far back and say, look, we read about this chap Jesus, how do we know he ever existed? Well then you go to the ancient historians and you find that most of them whether they're atheists or not. believe that he existed and so on. I accept that he existed. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Well that's a good start. You know, some of the disciples when Jesus rose from the dead, they just didn't believe the story. Ridiculous. And there's a famous story of Thomas. Who said to the others, he said, Unless I see the marks in his hands and so on I won't believe And then Jesus stood among them. Um He didn't Make fun of Thomas's objective. He said, Thomas, come on over. You never know what swimming is until you get into the water. Isn't that true? It is true. And All I can say is that step by step keep asking your questions. Absolutely. I don't believe that God will ever ask us to take a step with which we should be uncomfortable. I just don't believe that. Could you be wrong that Christianity So could it be the case? Uh. Christianity was was about a real guy called Jesus. You know, there was decades past between the things that happened and people. My academic mind says theoretically yes. No. Could I be wrong? It would be like asking me, John, you know, you've been married to Sally for fifty eight years. Could you be wrong that she loves you? Well theoretically, yes. Chile. The evidence all points in the other direction. And that's what I would say that I have built up in my life. I'd love you to ask me that question when you've read that autobiography. Why would you think it would read? Because I I think what I relate there is enough evidence for someone outside who's sceptical. To say There may well be something in that. But in the end, you won't know. Until You step into the water. And then you find that Christ is there to catch you. And what did you find in the water when you stepped into the water? Well, I was very young. You see, my parents taught me quite clearly. I wasn't born a Christian. You become a Christian by trusting Christ. That's to have somebody born or made a Christian by some ceremony is absurd to my mind. And so in my simple way. I responded as a child. I didn't have any great feelings or anything else. But what to me as I grew it, especially as I I went to university in Cambridge. And I decided, look, I really believe this stuff is true. I'm gonna stand for it. And it was when I began to stand and share with others. great deal of the underpinning came in and the certainty came. Cumulatively, not all a big I've never had these big Flashes of anything, but I d have had several experiences of what I can only put down to direct Divine guidance and I record them in the book. 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And if a person is born into a Hindi or Muslim household There is a 99% statistical probability they will remain in that faith. Only one percent switch out. And then the argument, I think it came from Dawkins or someone else, was that Is it fair that there's this birth lottery determining who ends up believing What? Or theoretically getting into hell or heaven. Yes. Because if I was born in, I don't know, Afghanistan, the probability says I'd probably be Muslim. Yeah, well, I I take that, absolutely. So God gave you an advantage in this context because he he he allowed you to be born in his all knowing, all all uh understanding way, put you to be born in a place where you were likely to be Christian. Sounds to me as if he gave the same advantage to you. So the question is, what do we do with that privilege? Now I know There are hard problems round the edge here. There are really hard problems. Not only where you're born and what you believe. This was the argument that Peter Singer advanced to me in a debate. I don't know whether you've heard about it. Peter Singer, you know, the the Princeton ethicist. Who really was one of the new atheists, but not quite. Very famous. for his views on dealing with the unborn and all the rest. Well we had a debate in Australia. And I started as I always do by being upfront about my background. And he when he got the chance to speak, he said, Well there goes my Best objection to religion. People always stay in the religion which they're brought up, you see. When I next got a chance to speak, I said Peter Told the audience. about my Christian background. But you said nothing about yours. Now tell me. Were your parents atheists? He said they were. Oh, I said that you remained. In the faith in which you were brought up. Oh, but he said it isn't a faith. And I said, Peter, I was I was convinced that you believed it. And it brought the house down, of course. There's the cyberspace went mad. point was made repeatedly all over the internet. Here's one of the world's top philosophers. He doesn't understand that his atheism is a belief system. And The irony was the very first person they met after that debate. was a fellow Hungarian Jew. who was a friend of mine. And then my friend said, and I became a Christian. So the very first person he met was someone who had transitioned from his background. That doesn't answer your question. It's a question I ask Often. Because God could correct this. Well this is just the point. And we have had these arguments and debates, w a good God and an all powerful God would, could, should, all this kind of stuff. And we never get A satisfactory answer to that. So I've come up with another problem, possibly because I'm a mathematician and we when we've hammered at one problem for centuries. We usually stop and try another one. My other problem is just as hard. But I think it gets me a bit further and it's this. Every worldview must face A mixed picture. I call it beauty barbed wire or beauty and bombs. The that's the world. It's mixed and if you don't Except that. You're not in touch with reality. Now, here's my question. Is there anywhere evidence? Enough. Trust God with that situation. That's a hard question. By that you mean the situation of the sort of geographical distribution of beliefs. We'll never understand it or solve it. But do we trust God's Do we trust God ultimately to be absolutely fair? Because if God isn't fair in the end, he knows what everybody thinks, I believe. And we'll s be surprised, maybe, at what he does, because he can measure how much people know My responsibility is twofold. One To respond to the evidence I've had. And then Christ tells me And that's what I do and I've been doing all my life. Doesn't answer a question. Gives you motivation. And The alternative to rule God out. Has so many Uh negatives to it. I think I think yeah, so when I think about what I understand of the Bible, there's a particular part of the Bible that talks about The only way into heaven is through Jesus. And other from that I inferred that the only way to get into this Great place that everybody wants to go to is by believing. I'm not sure that they do. I I have met many people who when they hear what Christ offers they reject it. But that's that's that's another point. So if If we talk about this d distribution Yeah. Sort of birthright distribution of what you believe. Um, and then those that believe this one particular thing are gonna get into this Heaven. It may it feels unfair. Mm-hmm. This idea that only those that believe get in is wrong? Mm-hmm. God is not as nice as we thought and he's playing a bit of a cruel game. There's a fabrically for your logic there. I I I think Um think there are aspects of this we don't understand because to give a crude example of this. I expect to meet Abraham And Moses. But they didn't know about Jesus. 'Cause they were before. Yes. When I approach this you said you're agnostic. I like that word. Uh people rarely ask me if I'm agnostic. But what I'm telling you is I'm agnostic about masses of things. It's how I learn. Mm. Ah, ginosco in Greek just things I don't know. Yeah. And uh once you take the other step and saying, I don't know and you can't know, it then becomes illogical because if you don't know, how can you know that I can't know? And I always remember the words of Richard Feynman, who was a Nobel Prize winning physicists, you've probably heard of Richard Feynman. Who said Bend over backwards to criticize yourself. Because you are the easiest person for yourself to deceive. Amen. He was dead bright. And That's why I love exploring these things and I feel honored to talk to someone who's so refreshing. I think there's great hope for our culture. in people like yourself exploring and sharing. With the world. the conclusions that you come to and the people that you're interacting with. Yeah, I like I said, I have no I don't have perfect answers either way, so that's why the word agnostic seems to be Perfectly apt. Um the other real question that I had. that really stumped me when I was eighteen years old was this point about omniscience. Yes. I mean it's the oldest question in in the sort of atheist religious battle which is if God is all knowing, he knew exactly which individuals would reject him and suffer. Um and go to hell before he even created them. Yeah. That's determinism. So how is creating a soul that you know is doomed? Um an act of love. Well it doesn't. I don't go for that determinism. In fact I've written a book that thick about it. I think it was actually Ricky Javes. Tell the story of the the baby being in born in let's say it's Africa or somewhere else or India or wherever it might be, the UK, who Born with a parasite eating its eyeball out from the inside. I know this. Yeah. And I remember hearing that when I was eighteen. Yeah. Terrible. And thinking, okay, so if God's all knowing, he knew that that baby was gonna have its eye eaten out by a parasite before the baby was born, but allowed the baby to be born anyway. And with my moral compass, I would have intervened. And if he's on omnipotent or powerful, he could have intervened. So how do you these questions where is the flaw in that? Question. Is there a flow? Is there a misunderstanding? I think there can be a misunderstanding, but it's a very understandable one because I feel exactly the weight of that as well. My question that I set out a few minutes ago, is there any evidence anywhere? God you can trust God with it. And the major piece of evidence to my mind Is And if Christ really is God, whom he claimed to be. This is God's suffering. And why is God suffering? Well it certainly tells me that he hasn't remain distant from human suffering. but has himself become part of it. That's not an answer. There are no simplistic answers here. But you see, once you remove God That child, there's no hope for it. It's dead, gone, out, nothing. But suppose God can compensate that child. Because he is the power to raise from the dead as he did with Jesus. Changes everything for me. The universe without a resurrection. I don't know whether you've ever watched my debate, the first one with Richard Dawkins. I suspect I have. We were suddenly told we'd only two minutes to wrap up instead of nine each. And I said Something about the resurrection. And I never forget what Richard said. It was something like this. We've had a great discussion about big ideas and so on. And now we come down to the resurrection of Jesus. How petty. Paroquial. How unworthy of the universe I remember thinking. If Jesus rose from the dead it's the biggest thing that's ever happened because it may With a way to understand? There is life after death. And you see, CS Lewis has helped me a lot. I used to listen to him. I'm that old. He has helped me a lot in in this idea of A sense in which there's more than one world. And we're so conditioned to thinking that this world is the only one there is. But if there is another world And there is a loving God. then I suspect I can't prove this to you. But when we one day see and enter that world And see what God has done with the kind of child you mentioned. We'll have no more questions. So you think he's compensated that child? Oh yes. God is a God of love. He will do much better than look, the biggest gift that God has given you and me. Is our moral sense and the capacity to love. We analyze problems like this. With our God given capacities. Um We come. And I understand it perfectly well because I've come to the same place as you. And say, Well God, if I had been you, I would have done this. Well, I suspect one day we're gonna find out why God didn't. He's gonna let me die one day. I've nearly died died already. I've said goodbye to my wife, by the way. And they thought they weren't good fourteen years ago. And I said goodbye. And it's interesting when things like that hit you. Forgive the personal reference, but it's very real. Total peace both of us had. As I went into the operating. And the surgeon saved my life. And this would take us down another rabbit hole. But I got to New Zealand just a few days after the earthquake. And I was on a lecture tour and everything was scrapped. I was on television, radio, but only one topic. Why earthquakes? You see. And I met people that had lost loved ones and all this kind of thing. And I talked. About the God who has suffered. and raise Jesus from the dead. And the interesting thing was it was that gave the most hope to the people that were listening to me because they told me and wrote me little letter afterwards and so on. So I I think there's something big here, but that God allows these things to happen is something bad. that in the end we have to take on board. Even when they happen to us. What about all the um the humans that Lived before Jesus came. Well, God will never judge anybody for not knowing what they didn't know. Interesting. That's an interesting idea. So I don't know. So am I good? I'm am I gonna go into heaven. Well no one is good but God. You see Is it important for me to You do know a great deal. That's obvious to me. You do know a great data. You know what this th is all about. And in a sense you've been very near. Uh at the beginning. And you're now doing an exploration and I mean your life stories that you must write your autobiography sometimes, but wait wait a few years. Yeah, I need I think I need a few more experiences. You will get them. I I I really believe that the openness is the important thing. Yeah. Quiz people. Your Christian friends on the now. Yes, I know, I know. It's lovely to find someone who's prepared to do that, quite frankly. Is it important that I believe in God? Like if I live a good life I'm kind to people then I do my best. But you see, that's exactly the point I was making. People think that living a good life and being kind to people is what God is interested in. When God has prepared for us A relationship with himself through Christ that deals with The forgiveness of sins that we all need, forgive me using the acneed phrase, but that's it. And will give us a new life and a power to live. A new power. You know It's all very well saying I do good and I do this and do the other thing. We don't have the power to live as we should. If we compare ourselves to the Sermon on the Mount for a week, we'll soon realise that we're lacking. And I I think one of the big changes comes in people as they realise just the depth Of what they might be capable of. possibly the depths of some things as sadly they do. And are facing a a big need of forgiveness. You meet many of them in prisons, of course. I I have seen such remarkable things happen. directly and indirectly with people who've made such a mess of life. And God has met them even And Death Row and Russia and places like that. where I was able to go because I speak the language to a certain extent. Again that I find tremendously powerful evidence. That God is at work in these people's lives. Statistically the case that the more hopeless your life becomes, the higher the probability you have of turning to um a religion. And I also if you're having a crisis of meaning in your life for whatever reason, th I I looked at some of the data and it does show that That's absolutely right. And that's what you'd expect if there if it's true, at least to a certain extent. It gives the people something outside themselves that's But simple psychology, I would have thought. Simple psychology. It doesn't prove the truth or if I believe in the dragon at the bottom with a guard or the spaghetti monster. Neparms if you're Irish. And it seems to be the case that really irrespective of which religion fills that place in your life, you still get the same boost in meaning post starting to believe. Well, I'm not convinced of that, you see. Because I'm sitting here as a Christian and I've reason for being a Christian because I don't find this need met in those practitioners of other religions. I don't find that sense of fulfillment and peace. uh that comes through the forgiveness in Christ. Now when I say that I need to guard that very carefully. Because one of the troubles And And you will probably have realise this in talking about different religions is that once you begin to criticise a religion think you're looking down at them. And so I clear the ground completely by saying A pagan or a person in any religion could put me to shame. By their moral behavior. In raising questions. About what is taught by a particular religion. I'm not criticising your moral stance. And C S Lewis helped me greatly there. He wrote a book in the nineteen forties where He tackled, I think, forty different religions and philosophies, and in every one of them he found the golden rule. Do until you're not going You would. And he points out that this is morally uh hardwired into your system. So that When I'm talking to people of other faiths and ask these questions, I I'm very careful to say that at the beginning. We've got to face the fact. There are differences. Jewish friends. believe that Jesus died and did not rise. My Muslim friends believed he didn't die. I believe he both died in Rose. Those three things cannot be simultaneously true. When I look at the stats here, data shows that devout Muslims and a devout Hindu get the exact same psychological meaning boost and sense of peace. As a devout Christian. Well how do you measure that? Well they ask them, Is your life more meaningful? And sometimes um I've got one particular friend who's Part of his c you know, uh evidence that what he believes is true. is the feeling he got when he started believing it. Yeah, well it is true. A positive feeling would reinforce that, of course, but it doesn't prove it in the end. But then your criteria for yourself. of what you accept will be different from that person. So you have to proceed. on the basis like Thomas of old. He wouldn't accept what the other guys said. He said, I need the evidence for myself and you need the evidence for yourself. I guess evidence of the kind that's going to give you a settled peace and confidence in what you believe. I can understand that perfectly. Then there were also thinking then I was thinking that there's fiction movies I've watched that made me feel really good. Yeah, sure. And they made me feel like more motivated and connected to the course. Equal day. Uh, just making myself a delicious coffee. From the freezer? From the freezer, have you not heard about Comtier? No. Oh my gosh. This is gonna change your life. I invested in this company called Cometeer last year and then now one of the sponsors of this podcast because they've taken a pretty revolutionary approach to making coffee. Every coffee is precision brewed at ten times the strength. And then they flash freeze it. with liquid nitrogen to lock in the flavor and freshness. And then it's delivered to you on dry ice in these recyclable aluminium capsules still frozen. Like a little ice cube. All you have to do is pop The capsule out. Add some hot water. And then you stir it and you are good to go. You can also make delicious iced coffee drinks as well. Just pour it in. Stir it up. And for anyone that hasn't tried it, you can get $30 off your first order of Cometeer coffee if you go to cometeer.com slash Steven. I've done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world. And one of the things you learn, which is unexpected, is that vulnerability is the doorway to connection. And after sitting here for two, three hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do. is to write a question in the diary of a CEO. We've taken all of the questions from the diary of a CEO. We have the question. Here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it. So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play the Dire of a CO conversation cards. And it is incredible. What happens? These are great if you're in a romantic relationship and you want to connect your partner more. These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say they're also great for families that want to learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world. in the analogue environment connecting human to human. It is remarkable. What the right question at the right time can do. Go to thediary.com. And you can get these conversation cards right now. So going back to this question I asked about Living a good life. It it it seems to be the case that the the Bible suggests that if you don't believe in God, even if you lived a good life, you go to hell. And hell is described as not a nice place. So I n I was thinking about the most kind person I know that's lived her life to be unbelievable passed away. She didn't believe. Does that mean she's in hell? Well Can't answer that. Let me just say something here. What picture of us is a very interesting thing. That the only people to whom Jesus talked about hell were religious bigots. Who were in danger of it. He didn't talk about it to ordinary folks who were struggling with believing and trusting God and all the rest. That's point number one. What is w and I think what are you implying there, Sarag? Well what I'm implying there is that We paint hell as something Ogre like. God stuffing and demon stuffing uh bodies into hell when actually I think Lewis got it right here, you know, when he talks about this. Hell is absence of God. And it's chosen. If a person doesn't want God in their life, and I've known people like that. and they choose it, God will give them what they choose. Otherwise God is going to have to force his way into their lives and they don't want him. And here is the amazing thing to my mind about Jesus and his attitude. He would go places, he would heal people. He would bring And all the rest of it. When folk saw what he did and said Go, leave us alone, he went. He didn't force his way into their lives. And it it seems to me the one example in the New Testament. Of a person who did not live a good life, and neglected the poor around him. And Ended. In that place. There is no evidence that he wanted out of it. What he said was Please send Abram to my brothers. that they don't come to this place. There's no indication that he wanted out of it. And I think this is a grim reality here. When we use these words we need to be immensely careful. You can choose. not to have God and God will honour that choice. And that is hell. One of the things that um I grew up believing because of the the Bible was that if you repented Yes which is you know, to ask forgiveness, admit your sins, et cetera. Yes, acknowledge Believe it then your sins would be forgiven. Mm-hmm. So If someone was a serial killer for their whole life and then repented at the end of their life, would they be forgiven and allowed into heaven? I I I guess this kind of links to the question I just asked, which is if someone was a doctor for their whole life curing childhood cancer. But they didn't believe. They would theoretically be going to this place described as hell. Yeah. We can argue about cases like that all the time. Neither of us is God. And the way God deals with these people, after all, next to Christ on the cross were two thieves. Well, they were terrorists actually. They'd both murdered, apparently. And one of them railed against Jesus and shoute and all this kind of thing, and the other Uh simply said to him, I deserve to be here. Remember me when you come into your kingdom. And then Jesus turned to him on the cross and said, Today you will be with me in paradise. And so that's given murderer. Yes. He in that sense, yes. And the apostle Paul, you know, was a murderer. There are deep mysteries here. It's just amazing. I never forget looking through the door of a Russian security death row. I'd never been a death row before and the stink it was just Like a nightmare. And because I was the only one of the Brits who could speak Russian, I went up to the door. And a chap came over and looked at me, gaunt and all this, and he was just awaiting execution. And what he said to me was this, he said, I deserve to be here. He killed twelve or something. I can't remember which. And then his face just Borst into a W what I can only describe as a ghastly smile. And he said I met Jesus here and he forgave me. And you just You go away with a very Burdened heart, I think. And he said, My colleague lying over there is the same. What do you make of it? I don't think we're gonna find out. I don't know, I feel like I'm wired to try I try not to solve these fucking problems. Big questions. I have to like figure them out, or they'll just sit there causing increasingly more confusion, which pops me right on that agnostic fence. Yes, I would encourage you to concentrate on the one that you think is most important. One at a time. And I I don't know because I forgotly met you. I think what you're doing. Bye. Talking to people from different backgrounds and so on. I'd love to be able to say here's where you must look, but each one of us is so complex and what will answer the question for you. might not answer it for the person sitting next to you. But Don't stop exploring, I would say. But I don't think you will. No, I won't, that's for sure. 'Cause I find the the curious pursuit of truth in and of itself a rewarding pursuit. Irrespective of whether I ever find the answers. That's the key. A speech that made a deep impression on me was given by Alexander Soljanitsyn when he was pushed out of the Soviet Union. Do not compromise the least with lies. Live not by lies. I think our generation needs to hear that because Great and tragic capacities of AI is the spread of lies, deep fakes, all the rest of it. I've been subject to it myself in the last month. When you think about the impact that AI is gonna have on human purpose, we talk a lot about job losses and um you know, white collar workers' entry level roles. And then really like everything else, uh if if you have a long enough time horizon, it's conceivable that many of the roles we all do today, including maybe even a as a podcaster Um I think Spotify announced this month that you're gonna be able to generate your own podcasts with AI. Um What is the high level sort of ph philosophical point we need to understand about meaning and how to live a good life? Uh, in a world where some of us might lose our jobs and have to contend with change in a way that we've not experienced before. I think we just have to I mean I have children, grandchildren, and all the rest of it. And one of my sons is beginning to ask questions, Dad, AI looks as if it's going to replace my job. Well he's tech savvy. And he will rise to it, I suspect. All industrial revolutions did this, but this is going to do it on a scale never before seen. And the tragedy is Uh I was talking about this in South Africa and they said it's all very well to tell us to reskill people. But if you don't have the educational infrastructure to do that. You just force a much bigger divide between the rich and the poor. They're really worried about it. I think the important thing which is why I wrote my books to inform and get people thinking and get them talking. What is the conversation you want them to be talking about? I think it's a very wide ranging uh conversation. You know, they're existential. Things for people that are afraid. Should they be? Well, they should be afraid of some things. I I think the creeping advance of totalitarianism is something that could engulf us all. If we're not very careful. It's creeping, creeping, creeping, and is being ruled out in parts of the world, particularly China. Not only. I read a very interesting report by a Chinese watcher. Saying Beware you in the West. Because the only difference between us and you is you've got all the technology, but not yet. A central government imposing it. Not yet. Beware. And I think we have to beware because we are sleepwalking into this. Uh Sir Anthony Selden, I don't know whether you've come across him. is a an education is very highly regarded by various governments. has written a book about AI's effect in education. And of course it's having a devastating effect. As you know. What is an essay? Everybody's using AI? And it's hard to recognize whether it's AI or not now. So that we're into a whole new world or How do we know what is true and what isn't? I was contacted could a publisher produce a transcript of a recent lecture I'd given because they liked it so much. Never heard of it. Discovered a website describing itself as Lennox Logic? And it was a picture of me. But it was deep fact all the way through and AI generated material that I would never have said, all politicized and everything else. Conceivable that Maybe You know, so much of this technology has promised that it would make us more human and so much of it failed, it made us more isolated and lonely. Oh yeah. Is it conceivable that if a technology comes along like AI It will render us um Useful for the things. position to do. As in, you know, being with each other in the real world and relationships. And is it conceivable that maybe we were never meant to sit in front of screens tap tapping buttons and Oh, I think that's absolutely true. It's already exercising many people's minds. In that direction. And could that be a better life? Well How would I judge that? I I guess one way Yeah, it's a good point. Um You know, I was thinking about this, I was thinking, is this like the moment where we kind of regress back to how we used to live our true maybe human nature. I don't know, we spend more time with each other in the real world and we 'Cause that's what you know, that's very human and uh my Maslovia needs of connection and touch and Yeah, yeah. Uh you can you're gonna stay you can demonstrate that. Look at these groups of parents. Who have said to their kids, Look, we're going away into the country for a week. And we're taking your smartphones away. And they grumble and say, No, no, no. And they come back after the week having rediscovered nature. They don't want to use their smartphones very much. Totally transformed by touch and taste and feeling. You see AI is a machine. doesn't have any of our five senses. Which are all connected with our consciousness. It doesn't see? It doesn't hear. It doesn't taste. When you say it doesn't touch, when you it doesn't smell. It doesn't see. Oh, it can it can be programmed to recognize patterns, but it has no awareness of what the process of saying is. Does it need it? Well that's not the point. What I'm saying is it's uh distinctively human that we understand what saying is. We know what saying red is. Do we? The machine? Yes, I think we do. I mean we can philosophize all around it. It's a conscious experience. And consciousness from a scientific perspective is call the hard problem. No one knows what it is. We don't understand it. Yes, we can't re you can't replicate it. So how do we know if AI is conscious. If the output is the same, I I can point an AI at this and say, What is it? The air will say it's a mug. And I can get a human to walk in here and say, what is that? And they'll go, a mug. Now the output is the same. Yes, but the understanding is not there. And why does that part why is that critical? Well, because there's a huge difference in being a machine and responding to a program created by others. Being aware of what you're doing consciously, that's a totally higher level of being. I agree, but why does that matter in this context? Well one another way of asking this question is actually visualized by what I have in front of me here, because one of the big big debates around AI is is it creative? Yes, I know. So here we have a picture done by The human. Yes. Here which is yeah, picture of a family and a dog and And then we have another picture here. Which is Done by AI. Yes. And we have another picture here, which is done by a different AI. Yes. Now, there's a debate that um AI can't be creative. Can AI be creative? Well, if you call what's in front of you as creative. Then it can be. now comes down to the very big question of what you actually mean by creative. Yeah. You see, it can create things. It can put things together that haven't been in that form before. It's not aware of doing it. It doesn't Know that those are children. Because it doesn't know. But if I ask it what is that, it would say a child. Yes, but it doesn't know. Like we know. And does and this it goes back to the same question, which is does Which is like what the process. Why does the process matter if the output is identical? Well, let me just say that That view. is exactly the view that Alan Turing beginning. And if you look at what's often referred to as the AI Bible. Peter Norvik and his colleagues. He said, look We are not trying. to create a conscious machine. We wouldn't even know what that meant. Yeah. We are happy. With the imitation game. And that's good enough for us. We're not trying to do it. But you see Punch a side. involves all that appreciation of life and nature and beauty and so on that we can see some meaning in, but also there's another thing. There's a consciousness Other people. There's God consciousness. I don't think AI anywhere near that. Machines there are certain things they cannot do, even potentially, that the human mind can do. So there's no way a machine is ever going to be able to simulate a human mind completely. But that's difficult. That's difficult mathematics and all the rest of it and it's highly controversial. Why is it an important conversation to have that It is conscious or not conscious when the output is is the same. I I can see the question. If you want to live in a reductive universe which ends up being meaningless, well then you can go that way. There's not nothing to stop you. But it seems to me there are enough indicators. Within nature, within science, within our human experience. Tell us there's a bigger world. This is the right and left brain stuff for back to McGiltras again. He would he would His stuff and AI is very strong. He thinks it's really dangerous because it's ruining All this side of the brain and the richness are of human experience, and it's in danger of destroying it. He actually invites people to come and fight with him. So in such a world, what is it that makes humans um what what is it that makes us special? Is it that those human things we talked about relational Oh, I think so. Yes, absolutely. And the fact that you and I can have a conversation like this. You could have this conversation with AI. Same. AI is pretty thin still. You can have a conversation of sorts. But remember Who's responsible for its capacity? Humans. It's something made in the image of humans, and that's a dangerous thing. I'm prepared. prefer to remain with something made in the image of God. It's interesting because we almost we're getting to a point where there's gonna probably be some like ethical questions around robotics. But I mean around robotics. Oh, everywhere. You know, in the same way that Many of us feel quite empathetic towards like trees. Yes, yes. And we feel empathetic towards animals. Yes. Um now trees haven't got a brain. Cutting down a tree needlessly I think would annoy a lot of people because it's It would annoy me. Yeah, it would annoy me too. And I think there's almost gonna get to a point where like You know People are gonna start asking similar questions around robots. Which is It's an interesting question. It is. It is. Let me ask you a final question then, which is what is the the most important thing? we haven't talked about that we should have talked about, as it relates to All of the work in these tangential subjects. Oh, I can't answer that. Perhaps the most important thing is find the trigger that would help you to take a step forward into Into faith. Ento the Christian faith. And I would just encourage you to keep asking your questions in the open way you've done. And I have regarded it an honor to And I hope very much it won't be the last one, but age may prevent that. But thank you very much. We have a um closing tradition. Where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's left for you. In a world with so many challenges. What can we do to restore hope? And trigger engagement. Give people a real basis for hope. transcends this world. And the only place I know where to find that. Is in Christ and in Christianity. John, thank you. One of the um one of the most compelling Arguments for uh Good. that you've presented and your way of seeing the world and being is not actually necessarily anything you've written in your books or not necessarily anything you've said. It is it is actually You. And uh you you you have a certain Peace. And contentment. Can I rarely see in people that I interview. But I often see and I've almost always seen. in the Christians that I've interviewed. And this is a interesting phenomenon for me. I interviewed Wesley Huff recently. Do you know Wesley Huff? Yes. Yeah. Wesley's a bright cookie. Yeah. He was very much he gave me the same feeling as you just like feels like a really happy person. Very sort of content rounded, well, There are many of us. Yeah. But it seems to be a trend that you know a lot of the Christian apologists that I've interviewed have that. anchoring that so many of us are looking for. There's a real sense of that. You know, uh I sit in front of many people and of course they often ask me questions I don't even understand, but in life that peace is very important to me. And also what We started with When I look at you I see someone who's of infinite value made in the image of God. And so what I say to you or think about you is hugely important. To me. And I wish you well. Thank you. Um, I highly recommend I mean you've written so many books, I I don't have all of them here, but I have a long list of them. But I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your autobiography, which is your uh most recent works. Yep. Um it's called John Lennox, and I'm gonna link it below. It's a spiritual and intellectual autobiography that I think is highly fascinating to read because of how diverse your thinking and skill sets are. But also This wonderful I mean you wrote if people are interested in the subject of AI, then I highly recommend. Then they should read twenty eighty four. I'll link twenty eighty four below as well. That's twenty eighty four. Artificial intelligence in the future of humanity. Um and I highly recommend everybody goes and reads Both books because they you are a truly