Personal Growth and Letting Go

On that point about me and vulnerability. Is vulnerability important? Because there's a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the issue. Is is it an important thing for my health, happiness? my future to be a vulnerable person. Trevor Burrus Well let's define it. Um vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we have When we are up against uncertainty. risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe. The awkward. The thing that I the emotion I feel. in times of uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because There's we're so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness. That it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces. Ask soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage. in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you yourself have done. One example of courage. That did not require uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally a young soldier stood up and said three tours. There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives. If we if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way. that's values aligned. And courageous. We have to be able to reconcile. when we're uncertain, at risk, or exposed. I mean, and really weirdly The next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks. football team, NFL team. Yeah. Ask the players. Give me an example of courage on the field or off. that did not require vulnerability. They said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like if you're doing things in your life in your work. And there's no risk. No uncertainty. And no exposure. then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end. That is not courage. Courage is a willingness to show up and be all in. when you cannot predict the outcome. Courage is saying I love you first. That's you know you want to know what vulnerability is? I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first? Uh, I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a while. But it's hard. It's you know I need to give context. It's been a while since I've Then in that situation. Well, you've had to go first. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's this great story that I tell about I w I gave a talk here, it was actually in LA and afterwards a kid came up to me, he's probably twenty two or twenty three, and he said, Can I tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life? And I was like, Sure. and a kind of a crowd grew around. And this is like the last time I ever got pinned, like not being able to exit a stage. 'cause it was such a traumatic it wasn't traumatic, but it was like he said, Well I was dating this woman. And so crazy about her. So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant. And I waited until the dessert came 'cause we love this chocolate volcano. And I ordered it and I said And she looked at me and she said, Think you're awesome. And I think we should date other people. And then she ubered home. And so I was like, God damn, this is the worst story I've ever heard. This is not a good story. And he said. So I got in my car and I drove home and the whole way home. I just kept saying to myself over and over. Brene Brown. When does this when when's the turn on the story, you know? And he said, I got home and I walked into my apartment. Push the door open. And both my roommates were wired in, they were on their computers and they looked up and said, Dude, what's going on? And he said I told her I loved her. And she told me I was awesome. And one of my roommates looked at me and said, That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away. So they come towards you. And he goes, oh, oh, no. No. I don't wanna I don't wanna be that dude. I was daring greatly. And he said both of his roommates just got teary eyed and went. Right on, man. Right on. Like There is no courage without vulnerability. How can you say you're brave? If you're not putting yourself out there. So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult for them to be Vulnerable. I was speaking to someone yesterday who was cheating on bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood. And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about I was asking her questions about because I'm very deep person. I this carries over into my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things you know she'd been through and whatever else. She just shuts down. And she told me that she she um What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability that she tries to stay away from because she needs to really, really, really trust the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a lot of people. They they won't open up enough to form a connection because they've been hurt before by opening up. And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being Single, alone. Unhappy, so on and so on. Yeah, I mean I think there's there what you said was so loaded. With so many things. So first of all, there's the the there's this very interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust. And how does that work? And people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability. Do I trust you first, then I'm vulnerable? Or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other. I share a little bit. I don't I don't share, hey, nice to meet you, Steven. Here's my darkest. horrible most painful trauma. You know, because that that is actually That kind of litmus testing. is actually a form of armor. I'm gonna throw something at you. our relationship in no way has been built long enough to h hold you're going to go away. And I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like that's litmus testing. Летми про that you're not trustworthy. Oh, I see. You're backing away. That's what I thought. I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story. Can we start can we start small? Okay. Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust. I think I g in that in my work we call that like The Smash and Grab. I'm gonna I'm gonna hit you with something really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence. Mm. Yeah. And it takes a really skilled person to say. Yeah, I'm really I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that. And I don't have a way to file it right now because I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share. I mean, we also call it spotlighting. So like if I had a military grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness, I work with the military a lot. And I I picked it up and put it in your face right here, what would you do physically? That's what that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like, yeah. I don't know. I don't know you. Um So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and a vulnerability and trust. And then you're also talking about that When When we've had a lot of hard things happen to us, I think this is where I really believe the democratization of coaching and therapy, that a lot of times we have to work with people, like we have to get help. to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor That we put on. It's frickin' survival. I mean, and you wanna start adding you wanna start adding variables like race. Gender. Like You know? Any anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival. Like telling me right now at my career. like, hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team and and talk about your previous failures, you know. Well, of course I could do that. And I would do it and everybody would clap and they'd think, man, she's so brave. And take the new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say, Hey, tell tell every don't don't tell anybody shit. Develop trust first. Develop Uh see how how Trust your own instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like vulnerability. is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else. But certainly more difficult for other for for some people, for sure. And I think What's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part of my career, is that regardless of why the armor is on. without vulnerability you cannot access. the experiences that are the most meaningful in life. Love. to love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that you're in a relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right? And have you ever buried someone you loved? Like I lost my mom two years ago. Like My kids, it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like to love is to be vulnerable, because it's to risk grief and losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most vulnerable human emotion? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable. That when some of us get close to it. We dress rehearse tragedy. It's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy. because we're so afraid someone's gonna rip it away and we're gonna get sucker punched by disappointment. Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed. rather than to feel disappoint risk feeling disappointed and get excited about something. Yeah, it's like the first time my kids shared with me when they were young. Certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I really, really want to make this team, Mom. And I said. I want to pause you for a second. tell you how brave it is. to talk openly about something you want so much. when you don't have control over whether you get it or not. I want I want it for you because you want it. But regardless of what happens, I admire your courage. for wanting something and sharing. Wild. that you want it. Because if you don't get it, I'll know. It was a crushing blow. But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way. So we And I and I'm really, I'm a really I'm I we call it foreboding joy. That joy is so good. just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for me. 'cause of the way I was raised. when something good happens, I'm like, Oh God. Now what's gonna happen? Statistically, that shit's gonna roll around any second now. And it's interesting because the group of people that we research, the only group of people that could take that you know, there's a bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability. Have you felt it? Yeah. Yeah. The only people that can really lean into joy consistently. Are people who use that vulnerability quiver? as a reminder to be grateful. to be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge enabler of joy. Is that automatic? Or can one train that No it's a training. Oh shit, no. I had to I I I mean standing at my front door. Watching. my sixteen year old daughter walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school and get in his truck for for a prom. Right. And I'm standing there and I'm like. And you know, what am I worried about? You know, prom night. Right. When I tell the story, the military is always like pregnancy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she gets in and and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie. my my son's, you know, at this time he's ten. And I'm like, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the croissage and the boutonier over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes Looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom? Um She's practicing gratitude. Let her do it. Otherwise she's gonna get on a crazy train and it's gonna be all health. And you know, like, because it part of me wants to say, okay. beautiful and so joyful. Get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I want to know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's that's what I want to do. 'cause I'm afraid. 'Cause that the joy of that moment was just too much for me. It appears you've overcome. Various traits of old. Renee Brown? I'm overcoming. Overcoming. No, I'm not over I I have not overcome. Have you overcome anything? Yes, the belief that I will overcome anything. I've overcome the belief that I have overcome the belief that I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have. That are new skills. that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be. But I I Um mindful all the time. I try to stay very mindful that I am scary when I'm scared. that I catastrophize very, very easily, and that's painful for everybody around me. And I don't need to be liked. I just need to be myself. Like, but those are things. 'Cause I will I will sit down like two days ago and be like, oh my God, it'd be so freaking easy to be liked here. I was like, this will be this would be a piece of cake. And I'm like, shit, I don't do that anymore. Two days ago. Yeah. Out of what? Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked. And you made the choice. Just to be myself. Yeah. Why? Because now the person I'm gonna betray Last is me. Yeah, I hope I see you again, but Not that important. Some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they they too might never cure parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking for s solution fixes. to not liking myself, to the way that I react to my emotions. They want to fix it. Because if they can fix it, then they can be happy. I don't think that's in the consideration set. For a very Beautiful reason. That if we could fix it. And never have to wrestle it again. We would be so short on grace. for other people. We would be So you think it it creates a form of empathy for this? Yeah. I mean like I'm not gonna I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary person. But when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like my asshole sees. You're inner asshole right here. I get I get it. I get what you're doing. I'm not gonna tolerate it. I'm gonna set a boundary around it. But I'm not really judging you for it. It's just that behavior's not okay right here. But you like yourself now? I I Yeah, I do. I do. I can I can I can think I can say that pretty I like what I'm becoming. And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what what work has that to go into getting to the point where you like what you be you're becoming? I think the hardest is Maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last twenty five years is it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work. It's armor. Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self protect when we're afraid. And how that armor moves us. Away from Love, connection. and our values. And so I think the hardest work is For me. Constantly being aware of what is my armor. What am I what am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of self worth, my ego? Like and and heavy that shit is. You know, at some point I had to wear it. because that was survival for me growing up. But this is the big this is the big developmental m milestone. of middle age, which you are squarely entering. which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you really close. And says not fucking around anymore. gave you gifts. Cosing not to grow into them is not. Benign. There's a consequence for that. and your armor is getting in the way. You're a grown ass person now. you have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve. And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife. What no longer serves. that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be. And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh for sure. Because all the armor. All the armor. is about vulnerability. It requires a huge amount of um I was gonna say self awareness. Yes. That some people just don't could probably never accomplish, I mean. That's why I think metaphor is helpful. Mean Most of us can understand. if you back me into an emotional corner. What are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement. I get super intensive. I get recklessly decisive. I know my armor. And my team knows my armor. I think my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get When I feel vulnerable. Is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces. But that's It's not possible. It's just it's just pretend. That's called anxiety. like pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives. Your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of Is fear the opposite of Couch. No, I think the opposite of courage is armor. I think the opposite of courage is self protection. to be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another environment, you talk about these four steps to courage, you talk about it in strong ground. Yeah. This was research that emerged like 15 years ago and I was really, really nervous because I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new data. So you develop a hypothesis or a theory. Based on data. And then as you collect more data. Does the hypothesis hold? And you know, this we collected that data pre-pandemic. You know. Pre pre a lot of things. And so I was really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are Identify and understanding your core values. I would love to do this exercise with you sometime. Um two understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to become super important, trustworthy to yourself. Self trust. Because one of the first casualties of failure are disappointment. Or set back. is we lose our ability to trust ourselves. our ability to make good decisions, our ability to take care of ourselves. And the last one, which is my favorite. because it can really I've seen it really change an organization is how to get back up after failure and disappointment. How to reset, how to be. how to manage your own bounce when hard shit happens. So those are the four skill sets of courage. Again. Evidence based. observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165,000 people through this work across 45 countries. collected data on all of it. It's so exciting. and it withstood all of the complex changes over the last five years. including AI. organizationally, 'cause this is where we do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist or clinician. I don't work with like families or individuals. I mean I have a therapist, but I'm not one. Um so I think you can develop scurt courage skills. The third point is bri braving trust. Yeah. And I've heard about your marble jar theory, so I've got a jar of marble. I saw that. Um could you explain to me what your marble jar look how excited you are. I know. Um so this comes, you know, where where is where where do I get my information? Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school. The front door closes. She slides down the door. into a heap sobbing. Oh my God, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on? She says that Something hard happen. She shared it like very confidentially with one or two of her friends during recess. When she got back to the classroom. they had told everybody in her class, all thirty kids. Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her. And she said, I will never trust anyone again. And my response immediately to my in my mind was damn straight. No. Person. You trust your mama, and that's it. Like that was my response. But again. That's not the right thing to do, right? You want a kid who can develop trust with others. So I said, trust is really hard. She said, I don't understand it. And her teacher at the time, Mrs. Bauham, had a mar a marble jar. And when the teen when the when the class would collectively decisions, she would put marbles in this empty jar. And when it got full, they'd have an extra recess and party. And so immediately what came to me, because I'm describing trust, which is a hard concept to a fourth grader, I said, trust is the marble jar. She's like, What do you mean? And I said Every time you share somebody something with someone that's confidential and they don't share it, they get a marble. Every time you build trust. When you want to share something really private and personal, you look for a friend whose jar is full of marbles. Do you have any marble jar friends? She's like, not the ones I shared with today. And I said, who are your marble jar friends? And she said, Hannah and Lorna. And I said, tell me something they do to earn marbles. Oh, well, like if I get to my tray late at lunch and there's no place to sit. Lorna will scoot over and give me half her seat and then we just share one seat and I can sit at the table. And then the other day when I had strep throat, Hannah was worried about me. So remember her mom call and said, Hannah's worried about Ellen. Why wasn't she at school? But then the biggest thing that Hannah did was the other day. Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her her husband, came to my soccer game and Hannah looked over and goes, Oh my God, your Oma and Opa are here. And I said. Why was that a big deal? And she goes, Because everybody's divorced and remarried and I've got eight. You know, four sets of people and she remembered their names. And what was shocking to me. is that Ellen was conveying These marbles. were being earned on these very small, she knew my grandparents' name. She gave me a seat to sit at. She checked on me when I was missing school. And so It made me start thinking about the literature on trust. So I immediately go to the Gotmans. Oh twice, yeah. Yeah. I mean just like yeah. So I go to the Gottman's research on trust. And I read right off the bat where Gottman say trust is earned in small moments every day. He tells a story. It's my favorite story that he tells and I've had them on my podcast and I've done blurbs for their books and written forwards. It's just great. So he tells a story about how he's also a mystery r lover like me. He's on the second to last page of his mystery. And he jumps up to go brush his teeth. And he gets g walks to the bathroom and he sees His wife. crying and brushing her hair. Everything's good. Just go to the bathroom and get back in your get back to your book. And he's like That's a sliding door moment. can I have a choice in that moment. to build trust and stop and say what's going on. or to build betrayal and pretend like I don't see her hurting. So I stop, I take the brush out of her hand. I start brushing her hair and say, What's going on? That's the sliding door moment that we have all the time, right? And so to me, trust is built. Slowly over time. A marble at a time. And that's how that's how we teach trust. to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies. The trust is a marble jar. It's earned. Leaders believe. And you're a leader, so you know you know the temptation. Leaders believe that in the middle of a crisis Yeah. You put the numbers together and there's a fever dream in the United States and there's new tariffs and you wake up and you know you're you're you've got a revenue line that's in crisis and then you can just look at your people and say, Hello, everyone's like back to the the uh executive presence. Trust me, here's what we're gonna do. And it means nothing to people. What matters is a leader that walks past you in the morning and says, Hey, good to see you Steven, how's your mom's chemo going? Marbles. marbles. Then when the crisis happens, you don't need to say, trust me. You just need to say what's on your mind. They trust you. The other thing I think uh has often plagued my mind is as a leader, sometimes you say things and those things can't happen for whatever reason things change. Right. And um And I think leaders sometimes think that trust is always being correct. Always predicting everything correctly, always being right. No, trust is and I think we had nailed this. I thought This was how this was gonna happen. We were wrong. You've been working your asses off for six months on this. And I've got to deprioritize it today, standing right here in front of you. But I'm not gonna bullsh you. You've been working your ass off on a priority. literally does not exist today. I want to stop and say thank you. I saw what you were doing. I want to be completely transparent about why the priority has shifted. And then I'm gonna ask you for the same level of work on the new priority. Yes or no? Yeah, and in the blame and responsibility often rear their heads. That's right. Eyelash or something. Oh no, one marble. There you go. Oh. Is that a marble? Yeah it is, yeah. You didn't have to say that, you do? I think that sometimes people say you got some shit on your shirt. I'm like, that's thank you so much because it would have been much Easier for you not to point out the bogey on my face or whatever. You know what I mean? I don't trust somebody that doesn't do that. So I guess it is a marble. Mm. Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago in the podcast they said, I trust people who say things in public that is against their near term interests. And I thought, hmm. Oh That's good. That's a Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor though, right? Mm-hmm. It's the trust in the marble jar has been very helpful for us. And let me tell you, there are behaviors This is plastic. There are behaviors in relationships where you take this whole thing and just slam it on the ground. Cheese. I think that's an obvious one. There's one that's more has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating. Which is just slowly disengaging. Emotionally disengaging. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gosh that's a ragged that's a ragged edged break on that marble jar. And it just happens over time and every the the other people think that they're nuts and It makes them question their own judgment. What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.