Defending the Disney Adult Phenomenon

This episode is brought to you by Sailie. So what's the plan for this summer? Thinking about traveling overseas? Maybe visiting a couple of different countries? Well, that certainly sounds like a fun adventure. But what do you do if while you're on this trip? You suddenly find yourself in need of an internet connection and you can't find a Wi-Fi spot. That's why before you head overseas, you really need to do the smart thing, which is to sign up for an E Sim plan with Sail. Which is this new E Sim service app brought to you by the creators of NordVPN. With an e sim from Sale, you can then have an internet connection wherever you travel to. Better yet, you'll save money on roaming fees. The process couldn't be simpler. Just purchase the e sim plan you prefer at the SAI website. They've got global and regional options. And then follow the instructions on the app and install the e sim on your phone. After that, the Sale ESIM will activate instantly. After you land at your destination. Me personally, what I love about Saley is you only have to install it once, which means no wasting time at the airport. Standing in line is you wait to buy a local SIM card. With Sailey, you can choose from several affordable E SIM data plants in over 200 destinations. Better yet, you can travel using the very same eSIM plan, no having to install a new SIM card with every country you visit. With the Sale E Sim, you'll always have a connection when you need it. So sign up today. And as a Disney Dish listener, you'll get an exclusive 15% discount with Salie ESIM data plans. Just download the Sale app and then use code Disney Dish at checkout. Again, Disney Dish listeners get an exclusive 15% discount with their first purchase. To learn more, go to salie.com. Again, that's salie-sa-i.com. Affordable e-sim data for international travel. We thank them for sponsoring today's show. Welcome back to another edition of the Disney Dish Podcast with Jim Hill. It's me, Len Testa, and this is our show for the week of Shmursday, May 25th. twenty twenty six. Happy Memorial Day, everyone. On the show today, I ride Soren and Muppets Rock and Roller Coaster, and they're great. plus an interesting new Magic Kingdom survey that hints about what refurbishments we might see next. Then in our main segment we're joined by Los Angeles Times writer Todd Martins. Let's get started by bringing in the man whose grandfather was responsible for twenty five downed German aircraft in World War Two, making him the worst mechanic the Luftwaffe had ever seen. Mr. Jim Hill. Jim has it gone. It's going well then. Though speaking of Germany and the war, I want to remind folks that the only Donald Duck cartoon to ever win an Academy Award is one you'll never see on Disney Plus, and that's Because it's De Fura's face. Uh and uh this short, which was originally called Donald Duck in Nuts Land and that's M U T Z I produced by Disney Studios in forty two in the early early days of World War II, and it makes Absolutely no bones about being an anti Nazi film, and I I have to warn Dizzy Dish listeners, if they head on over to YouTube, which is kind of one of the only places you can see it these days, uh by two thousand twenty six standards a number of the gags in the Furious Face are are pretty racially offensive. Yeah. Um also should probably mention why it started off a production with one name and got released under another name. And uh Oliver Wallace uh wrote a theme song for this thing, The Furious Face, that Spike Jones recorded. I went out into uh Yeah, went out on the airways, I wanna say three months before the movie was supposed to arrive in theaters. Len, it was number three on the the North American charts. I yeah, I knew about the uh I knew about the song. I didn't know that that was related to the cartoon. That's interesting, really. Yeah, yeah. And uh and so Walt being Walt, it's like well, you know, why would I be calling it Donald Duck in Nazi Land now? I'm I'm gonna name it after the hit song. So DeFura's face Came out in in uh January forty three, and we've we've all been hiling ever since. How about that? That is fantastic. Also with us on the show today is Todd Martins, a features columnist at the Los Angeles Times. Who writes about theme parks and West Coast experiences. Todd's new newsletter, Mr. Todd's Wild Ride, is available online. Welcome, Todd. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Todd, did that name just did that newsletter name just come to you or I have to give credit to my editor. She came up with it. And I think she said it initially as a joke. And I'm kinda. Sometimes the first idea is the best. Yeah. Yeah, run with that, get the T shirts made. Exactly. All right, before we get started, let's do a quick shout out to our subscribers. Thanks to everyone who subscribes to the show over at Patreon.com slash Jim Hill Media, including Lee Stone, Bridget Hurley, Ken Aubrey, Alex Eveland, Amanda Notverney. And David Lou, Jim. And Todd, these are the food by Swedish chef line cooks, trying to get the chef back to work. Apparently he stormed out during previews, saying only Der music is a true alertin for the true roast tour to horizon. Fork, fork, fork. True story. Okay. He's inscrutable like that. Yeah, uh celebrities they're temperamental sometimes. I I I'm waiting on the subtitles. So Okay. Awesome. All right, Jim, let's do the news. Folks, the Disney Dish news is sponsored by unlockedmagic.com from our friends, it's DVC Rentalstore.com. Disney's now got four updated rides plus new stuff open, and unlockmagic.com has discounted theme park tickets that'll save you enough to enjoy snacks in all four parks, too. So visit unlockmagic.com now to save money on your upcoming visit. Alright, Jim, let's start with Walt Disney World. First thing I did uh this week, I rode the new Soren across America. Okay. And it just from from minute one with the pre-show which has a new uh Clip in it. Uh it it's just a fantastic ride. So we get uh current aged Patrick Warburton. Uh who introduces the safety video. Then we go to the old safety video and Patrick's like, look at this young fellow over here, isn't he handsome? You know, something like that. And that that definitely got some laughs. Okay. Jim, I know as a Disney theme park historian. You you will love this the opening scene here, uh, because it's a rocket launch in Florida. I believe it's the Artemis Two. And Jim You know how much Disney loves their rocket launches. in widescreen film formats, right? Oh yeah. I in fact but but I love the transition here. I again forgive me. I cheated. I went on YouTube. Uh and and just the notion of you know we are looking at the rocket launch from a distance, you know, it that that Beautiful twilight. It it goes up into the clouds, and don't we transition straight out of those clouds into what, New York Harbor with the Tatue of Liberty? Right we follow the rocket up into the clouds, and then there's the familiar Soren opening. seen clouds. But then we end up in in Manhattan. And from in Manhattan, I think you're like at Governor's Island in the south tip. sort of going forward. And uh you get to see the Statue of Liberty, you get to see a a couple of other things. I couldn't quite make out any halal guys' carts on the streets, but you know, my my vision is not what it used to be. Okay. Uh then from from there we do um Washington D C. Uh I remember seeing Uh Alas beautiful mountains in Alaska. We see the beaches of Hawaii. We do a couple of scen is it Southern California? We see the Hollywood sign? We do we do. What's interesting to me is that there's a beautiful shot over the Griffith observatory. Right, yeah looking down into downtown Los Angeles. And then they literally Do the reverse angle of sorts so you get the Hollywood sign? Yeah. Yeah. That was that was really interesting to me because the it was funny, the first time I wrote it, I didn't understand the reverse angle thing. And I went back and I'm like, did we just switch to a different city at night? Like it looks remarkably similar. But yeah, okay. So it took it took me two rides to figure that out. Yeah. But I thought that was great. And then we end up in a butt. There we go. There we go. And in fact I I have to say I'm I'm I'm kind of pleased that you know uh When we were talking about the fiftieth anniversary and the big you know, nighttime Epcot Lagoon show that didn't quite go over, but you know, the little side project where they they the you know, they they inserted those traffic signal lights in Epcot that everyone loves. It's like And that's the image that's the end of the show on. You know, it's like okay, you know, I I I know this has gotta stick in the craw of the entertainment people at Walt Israel. It's fun. It's fine. It's fine. The uh the ending scene does have some uh that links up to the two hundred fiftieth anniversary. So it's a patriotic uh closing to the to the ride. But the thing that I noticed about this ride versus Sorn around the world is the CGI that they use in the scenes with a couple of exceptions. is much less overt um than it was. Like I think Everyone's reaction with the same in looking at Sorn around the world. You uh, you know, you're you're flying over the icebergs, you know, in the first scene. You see the polar bear with the kids and you're like, Oh, that's nice. And then you have to you realize after like the polar bear turns to you, you're like that might be CG. And then the the uh the glacier calves and you're like, Okay, this is all fake. And then you can for the rest of the film. You're trying to figure out which things are fake and which things aren't. And there's almost none of that. It's it's a much more natural looking, less computer enhanced view of, you know, how big and beautiful the United States is. And and I will let you know from from chatting with the folks who did soaring around the world. I mean that that was a deliberate choice. I mean inserting the animals with the notion of this gives this thing rewriteability. Whereas this time around It just feels like to me that they trusted The ride format, the ride experience? Yeah, that's the thing. It's like you don't you don't need to plus it up. I mean you've got A massive film you've got natural beauty. You don't you don't need You don't need to guild a lily, right? Just just let it let it let it happen. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jim, I I did not on the first ride pick up any scents, like any piped in smells um into the ride, but I could be wrong there. It was early in the morning and I wasn't really looking for it. I like I said, I do think it's better than Soren around the world. I think in particular the pacing of the scenes. is significantly better than it was in Sor and around the world. There are definitely times where Like when we're going through the Grand Canyon. Um well I thought to myself, like we're getting a really good look. Yeah. Everything here. Yeah. Like I said, I can know it it it's just one of these things where like, for example, the the sequence in Alaska where there is that slow pivot and you then realize, dear Lord, look at the size of keep calling Mount McKinley, but you understand what I'm saying. Because you were there when he named it, right? Good close personal friend. Uh yes. But that's the thing. It just it it There there was a trust that these are strong visuals. I mean the the footage off of Hawaii where they they pivot and then oh that's diamond head. You know, uh no. I mean I uh again, uh third time might actually be the charm here. So I think so. It's uh it it's better than sorting around the world. Um but Jim, uh I got a note too, uh Mention Neering's actually developing quite a little library. Uh films that they could play here, couldn't they? Yes, they are. Yes, they are. And I just want to point out there are three theaters, you know, in Florida. You got three movies. Could get a random experience. There you go. Mm-hmm. All right, the other big opening, and I think the one that I was looking forward to the most was Rock and Roller Coaster starting the buppets. Uh, and for this one, Jim, I did not look at any preview videos. I didn't read the Disney Parks blog, I didn't read our own blog. I went in only knowing that there were five songs and we talked about that on a previous show. uh my first uh impression of it was there were way more changes in this than I expected. Like I didn't think The you know, just to point out something small, I didn't think that the ride vehicles would be repainted or or rewrapped. Um they are. But also You know, when you and I were talking to Jim Shul, who designed the ride, um Jim was under the impression that there weren't gonna be major changes to the scenery inside the ride. Mm-hmm. And everything's changed inside the ride, too. We'll we'll go through it. Um but For my preview, relatively small number of people in there. It wasn't a it wasn't yeah, it wasn't invited by Disney or anything, it was just a happened to be that I got a preview with that many people. Um There are so many Jokes and gags. In this attraction starting from the minute you walk up to the to the show building. There's no way you could see it all in two or three rides. I've been on it five times. I have not seen Anything close to all of it yet. It is Incredibly pecked. It is like you know the old Muppet Vision three D pre show where there's a gag everywhere you look. Yeah. It's like that all over again. And by the way, if you are fans of old Muppet stuff in Hollywood Studios You're gonna find a million things to love in this ride. Uh there are references to uh to all of the old Muppet things in Hollywood studios, um, there and I'll say that. Um There's a It starts like I said, it starts in the G Force Records lobby. There's a video in the vestibule That's really funny. Um Jim, I think I we we mentioned on uh the show earlier. Mm-hmm. that as soon as we heard that they were redoing it with the Muppets, I emailed Ileana Douglas's agent. So Ileana Douglas's aerosmith's manager in a little pre show video. And I said, I don't care what you have to do. Iliana needs to be a part of this pre show. And I'm not gonna say w whether Iliana Douglas is in this pre show. I'm just saying, Jim, that sometimes prayer works. I am so happy to hear that. I'm more to the point. Again, I I cheated. I I've looked at the videos. Uh yeah, and I love what they've done if only for Know Kermit Frog still says you got a minute and a half. Got a minute and a half. It's and it's just it it's like that. The whole thing, there's just so much humor and so much goofiness in it. Like I I've seen the I've actually stayed one extra pre show to see the pre show one more time. So I've been on the ride five times. I've seen six pre shows. I don't know where to look to find the next gag. There's it's there's three sections in the pre show and in typical Muppet fashion, everyone's doing their own thing at some point in the pre show and it's just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, like one after the other and they build on each other. It's like I just need to sit there for an hour, I think, and just watch it. Yeah. I I just what intrigues me about this, and face it, just looking back at at how this all occurred, I mean the the news coming out of The D twenty three expo in in two thousand twenty four and how reluctant Disney was to admit, yeah, well, Monsters Inkland is going into where the Muppets are. Oh No, this is the this this compensates for all of that. That's it exactly. I mean the the whole it just feels like that if we are moving the Muppets and you know, not only that, we're we're we're getting rid of Arrow Smith, you know, we have to bury the needle so far in the other direction to compensate. And that's that seems to be the reaction that This is as it better than anybody anticipated it was really going to be. Like I like I said, I had high hopes for it and I had high expectations for it. And it so exceeded all of those. Like I I I I was walking out after a preview with someone and I'm like I had stopped riding rock and roller coaster unless I was with someone who wanted to ride because, you know, been there, done that. But I feel like I could add this to my regular rotation. Like I go on Mickey Mini's Runaway Railway every time I'm in the park because I love that ride and the gags are so funny. I will I will ride this again every time I'm there. Because there's gonna be something new for me to discover for the next, you know, two years or whatever that I there I do wanna point out one other thing, Jim, if you're a fan of um classic rock and roll, especially classic rock and roll album covers. Um, the ones that they line the pre show area with uh in G Force Records, right before you go in the pre show. Whoever did those captured the essence of like seventies, eighties, and nineties album covers, Jim. Yeah. In a way that Like I it it deserves its own art award. There's this one of uh L Lou what's Lou's last name? Lou Oh uh Lou Zealand. Lou Zealand doing a parody of it I think it's Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy cover. And I looked at that and I was like This is If Andy Warhol had done this, it would be in a museum somewhere. Like It's so encapsulated. The aesthetic of like s early seventies rock. That it it's hard to tell whether it was like parody or you know, uh a joke, or whether like we're actually just trying to really make a a an actual album cover here. It's just brilliant. Everything is so such an homage to that period and they got the style so right. Like even without the ride, like just walking through the pre show and you're like, I get these gags. That's great. It's really funny. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. The um the onboard ride audio, the last time I went was completely dialed in. The timing was there. I know that there were early reports of like Uh audio or timing being off. All that's fixed. Um Jim, we should live so long as to uh as to see this line come in under an hour. Like I don't know how that's ever gonna happen. Uh it's it you know, this is one you definitely need to lightning lane multi pass or premier pass if you're gonna if you wanna see it, uh, to avoid long lines. It's just gonna be insanely popular. Yeah, but fantastic, fantastic job to imagineering, over delivered on this one. Um Yeah, frankly i y my next question after this was like when is the villain show going away so we can get an actual uh electric mayhem concert. Oh, that would be killer. One thing I'm gonna be fascinated to watch And again, remember, we are now in the middle of prom season here. In uh the United States. Uh, just over the next two to three years I'm gonna be interested to see, you know, the the number of of young adults who are climbing into to Limo's who turn to friends and go, I I believe it's pronounced Limo. Yeah, that yeah, that's a it's a it's a joke, yeah. Yeah. So uh wanna see, you know, how long it takes for that to get away. There we go. The other thing I uh finally went to uh went on was uh Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Uh since May third. Yeah. Okay. For me, heat in the long lines just not a thing. Anyway, I it's fantastic. Um it's very, very smooth. Um and you know, if you're getting older like I am, the idea of getting bounced around in a Or roller coaster maybe isn't the most appealing thing. This is fantastic. It's way more pleasant to ride. I think they may have slowed it down a little bit or the track is just that smooth, but it's a really, really pleasant experience. I enjoyed the entire thing. I would ride it again and again. There were uh there were a couple of QFX that I tried that weren't quite working, uh and the cast member said that there's kind of still intermittent Um Whatever, they'll get that fixed. But overall, just another great update too. And You know Jim if you think about Rock and roller coaster, if you think about Big Thunder, um, if you think about um Millennium Falcon. Um and Soren. I you know, Disney's four for four. Mm. on these refreshes, which is uh fantastic. That's average. And again, it's just nice to be in in a situation where I think as you mentioned with Mobbins it. Disney's over delivering. I can know and and We haven't been able to say that, you know, a lot in the past. So th this is nice. This is genuinely nice. So Yeah, everybody who worked on all those projects did a did a fantastic job and and uh no no complaints here. It's uh all very solid editions. So there's a couple of other things I'm gonna uh experience starting as soon as we're done with this show. I have to go on Smugglers Run, um, Bluey's Wild World opens I think Tuesday, but they're might soft open before that. I gotta borrow someone's kid to get into uh Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Disney Jr. And then I did walk around the Walt Disney Studios courtyard, which they opened up the old animation courtyard. Way more pleasant. They've added The trees that they've added in the benches and the grass? Oh my god, it's a completely different space. Oh no no absolutely. And I I I have to admit, I love the teeny tiny vignettes. Yeah. There's stuff in there if you're an animation fan. It's worth it alone. For you know, the you when you come upon Rusefi from Cinderella who has targeted Zazu from from the Lion King, and it's like this story is not gonna end well. You know, but but just these little teeny tiny touches in there and as somebody who has been uh lucky enough to be on the Disney lot out in Birdbank, they definitely got the vibe. I mean it just looks tremendous and I the only downside is do we have a ballpark yet for the actual magic of Disney animation? Experien the building 'cause right now? Nothing. I haven't heard anything from everyone. I know you know who to ask for that, but uh uh I I haven't heard anything official. All right, I'll poke. I'll poke. Okay. All right, fair. The uh the other thing I want to say about the uh the new Walters East Courtyard is you know, they've got the uh sorcerer's apprentice hat, the sorcerer's hat in there. If you line if you're taking if you're taking pictures of someone and you line them up exactly right, you can make it look like they're wearing the hat in your photos, and that's that's gonna be, I think, a meme at some point. So I've already done it. I've already done it. So all right, a couple of other bits of news from Walt Disney World. Um the Walt Disney World luggage service is expanded now to American United and South West Airlines. Mm-hmm. So if you need your luggage transferred, three more options for doing that. And then um I was talking to some friends who were over at Expedition Everest last week, and it looks like they've gotten rid of the single water line. And made some changes. So Jim, you and I have talked about how Disney does line management at things like Tron and Guardians of the Galaxy, where they separate groups into two lines of odds and evens. Looks like they're doing that at Expedition Everest as well. So they're loading odd numbered groups and even numbered groups and got rid of the single writer line for that. Something to watch. Okay. All right, Jim. Over at uh Universal we're expecting uh Halloween horror nights news. Uh, any day now. I see that one of the houses now is Sinners. Have you seen that? Yeah, that we just announced yesterday, uh, both for East Coast and West Coast. So uh gonna be intrigued to see what they do with that. Yeah, I'm excited for that one. That's gonna be uh that's really good. That was have you did you see that movie, by the way? Yeah, Michael B. Jordan did some twice. An amazing performance. So Yeah, really, really good performance. So I'm excited to see how they do as a house there. And then um Uh speaking of Universal, uh Jim. Epic Universe is getting a Captain Cacao meet and greet in Celestial Park. Okay. I can know just it needs more things to do. Character greetings are one of those things, yeah. I I absolutely I just I know I and don't get me wrong, it's a it's a lovely uh walk around outfit. I just it's like During summer. All right, there we go. Alright, kind of just sort of like okay, I I buy chocolate and I meet this guy. Okay, all right. One of our uh one of our listeners uh suggested a uh similar uh new Mickey's not so scary Halloween party character greeting to compete with uh Captain Cacao and with Halloween Horror Nights. Uh and their idea is this Duffy the cocaine bear? Shereby snack stand that'll cover everything in powdered sugar. I'm I I am merely a vessel for these ideas, Jim. I'm just saying. Wow. Okay. That's it's a little dark. Okay. All right, Jim. Onto surveys. Got a really interesting survey from Brian here. with questions about Big Thunder Mountain and Jim, as we go through these questions, I'd love to hear your take on how Disney positions, big thunder mountain railroad. different age groups in the park. 'Cause you know, you think the barn server is like your first one and the sort of trons at the opposite end of that spectrum, right? Mm-hmm But here's the here's the survey questions. First one is this, which of these aspects, if any, had a positive impact on your experience with Big Thunder Mountain Railroad? And I'll give you the options. It's big thrills without being too scary. New special effects and surprises? Smooth, comfortable ride experience. Interactive and engaging Q. Length of ride, Wild West theming, appeals to all ages. The thrill and excitement of the ride Nostalgic charm, parentheses, a classic Disney attraction, or other. So for that, what is What's Disney trying to get there, do you think? Wow. And by the way, you can you can select all that apply in this question, so you can choose more than one. guess I'm kind of intrigued by well, first of all, this survey being out And you, for example, I mean they deliberately cite uh interactive and engaging cue experiences at a time when you were mentioning, hey, this stuff isn't working. It w it was a rope drop. Okay. Uh but that coupled with the fact that you noticed that Now, you know, they're they're literally hyping the smooth, comfortable ride experience. Right. As opposed to remember, this was the ride people were sending people on to get rid of kidney stones. Kidney stones I made that joke in the lawn after getting off the getting off the getting a line again. I was like, I wonder if this is gonna affect the ability to break up kidney stones 'cause it's way smoother. Like do like do we have to retract some sort of scientific paper now because of this. You improved it. I now I find my kidney stone. You know there's some more that's humanity going, damn it. Okay. Now I I have to ask our Are the new special events and surprises significant enough to note putting them in a survey? That's the thing. I I I didn't notice them. If there's stuff on the ride itself, I don't I don't think I noticed it. I you know, the the cavern scene is definitely more vibrant colors. Okay. And and and, you know, some different sort of Painting effects. I didn't other than that, I didn't notice a whole lot. I'll go back and re ride the um The ride opened late the when I rope dropped it, and then by the time I wanted to re ride the line was kind of insane. So I didn't um I didn't do it a third time. Yeah, I'm going to try it again. It just it seems like I mean, it don't get me wrong, it sounds like a a A wonderful referb. Yeah. Uh but I I g it just for me, it's a this is kind of intriguing, kind of Hey, it's got new effects. It's like really? If if people are noticing the new effects, are they new effects? That's a good point. The um there is one survey question later on that says this, uh how would you rate your overall experience with this new version? of Big Thunder Mountain compared to the earlier version. Would you say that it is and you have three choices. Better, about the same, or worse? And I love this because this really cuts to the heart of the refurbishment, right? Like Better is the only good answer here. About the same and worse is not good. But I would have answered that it's better. So uh yeah. So Wow. I guess w d given the amount of time the ride was down, and obviously, you know, th they replaced the entire track on this thing. The track is a significant improvement. Yeah. Yeah. Th there were two other interesting questions in the survey that Brian sent in and I want to go over them real quick, Jim. The first one is this. Were you aware of the following during your visit? And it's a photo of the pamphlet. that the Magic Kingdom gives out titled Fun for Families with Kids. And the options were I was aware of this, but I couldn't find one. I was aware, but I was uninterested. And I was unaware. What's going on with that? Well, now remember that when Disney, you know, launch its most recent ad campaign for the summer. of two thousand twenty six, it was leaning very heavily into the kids fun summer at the Disney the parks and the notion It's like are you aware that we d we did this, you know, for for each of the parks, that there is literally a guide to to help you have a kids fun experience? And uh just uh remember they're they're asking the survey question in in May out ahead of the start of the official kids summer. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. So like if we if we need to redo our marketing, this is the week that we're gonna make the change. Got it, got it. This was the push of our summer and it is this in fact Something that people are aware of. And if not, what are we doing wrong? Oh, that totally makes sense. Yeah. So basically May is the is the pre season for summer. There we go. Like do we need to do we need to change anything here before the regular season starts? Okay. Makes total sense. I think Other than the big thunder questions, the By far the most interesting set of questions in Brian's survey. was this. Um and so it's the same set of questions, but for twenty three attractions in the park. And the questions are this, please take a moment to review the following terms that could be used to describe attractions in the Magic Kingdom. Iconic, which is a classic ride. The par the park would not be the same without it. Personal favorite. It's my perfect day would definitely include this attraction. Immersive. I'm able to live in the story. It's boring. It's uninteresting and it feels like a waste of time. It's dated. Which means it's not relevant or it's in need of refurbishment. It's insensitive. It's either disrespectful to some audiences or something else, or I'm not familiar with this attraction. And Jim, we've we've seen this question before, but maybe for a handful of rides in a land. This is for nearly two dozen Attractions. In the park. And when I when I went through the list of attractions, I was trying to figure out You'll love this. Where Disney was going with this question? Right. Um, and so I note that the attractions list nearly two dozen attractions. Didn't include Buzz Lightyear, Country Bear Jamboree, or Big Thunder Mountain. Which are relatively high capacity tractions that have been recently referred. There we go. Okay. It also didn't include Seven Dwarves Mind Train, 'cause I think that we all know that's untouchable. It also didn't include Hall of Presidents, but I think for the opposite reason, I think its fit is already sealed, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's break down the rides by touring plan slash unofficial guide survey results to see if that sheds any light. on what Disney is going for here. Okay. So um Keeping in mind that the average satisfaction rating on a scale from one to five for the Magic Kingdom is around four point two stars out of five. Which is pretty high. Here are the things that were listed. in the survey that they were asked Disney was asking about that are much above average across all age age groups. So things like Happily Ever After was in the survey. Mickey Sfill Hard Magic, which was a surprise to me, but it's Either four or four and a half stars by every age group. Um, Festival of Fantasy and Pirates, all much above average. for satisfaction ratings. And they were in this service. Then there was a set of above average attractions, Tron, the Walt Disney World Railroad, which was another surprise to me, the people mover and haunted mansion. All four of them got questions asked about. In this right. And then there was a group of average attractions. Peter Pan Flight, a pirate's adventure. Mickey's Magical Friendship Fair, Monsters Inc. Laugh Lore, and the Mining Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. The attractions that are rated as below average. By every age group combined. is Dumbo Enchanted Tiki Room, Prince Charming Rinkle Carousel, m mad tea party. And surprisingly, it's a small world. And if you look at the very lowest rated attractions in the Magic Kingdom that were in this survey, Magic Carpets of Aladdin, Swiss Family Treehouse, Barnstormer, and Astral Order. And I just want to focus on Bottom group. So Dumbo, Enshanity Room. Prince Charming Riggles Carous. Mad Tea Party, it's a small world. Magic cover to a lightness with family tree house, Barnstormer. An asteroid orbiter. Okay. Now then, let's think about if we were Disney What would we do? With those low rated attractions. Okay. So Let's Jim just assume for a minute a hypothetical where These surveys results come back. And Disney confirms that those low rated attractions are indeed low rated attractions. Okay. If you look at a map, Google Maps, and I've included some in the show notes. The footprint of the It's a Small World building. Is roughly the size of Mickey's Filter Magic. Peter Pin's light. Columbia Harbor House. And the Hall of Presidents combined. And we think that averages around fifteen hundred guests an hour, maybe seventeen hundred if things are going well. No one is buying lightning lane. It's a small world. The maintenance for water rides probably isn't. Easy. It's not the original that's in Disneyland. So there really is no cultural significance to this specific version of It's a Small World. If we're thinking big bold new attractions that are gonna drive lightning lane sales in the Magic Kingdom. It's a small world, isn't it? And Jim. If you look at the map, I'm just throwing out here. If you were to demo it's a small world. you would have significantly easier pedestrian access. to the eastern half of the land that is now adjacent to villains land. Which I don't want to point out might be valuable real estate. Wow. Why do we why do we need and it's a small world in Walt Disney World when the other one in Disneyland is better? That's my that's a question I would be asking if on Disney. Okay. I'm trying to You're trying to contain your rage as much as possible. I understand that. No. I mean I just you know it's ironic because we we are actually in the process uh uh getting a Disney impact ready about the history of it's a small world. So I'm I'm kind of face down D d down into uh that attraction and Boy, you are not wrong about uh Walt Disney World's version of It's a Small World, but Once upon a time there was a plan to have put where the old Skyway station was. Right. Yeah, with a tangled bathroom. It would have had a show building very similar to the one out in Anaheim. It would have had such a stronger presence, but uh they made a creative decision early on about uh where this ride would go and it wound up being cross the street from Peter Pan, which to be honest, more people notice. I mean, you know, you you can walk by Walt Disney World's version of Small World and not realize it's there. It's it's so poorly positioned. Yeah, to your point, yeah, if you're if you're coming in from the center of Finishy Land instead of um coming in from Haunted Advanced, you'll miss it. You'll miss the entrance. Yeah. If you are thinking Uh on a decades scale in investment in the the the Magic Kingdom. Uh yeah, this is an attraction where you'd be gathering information on and and it's like Do we really need that? Yeah. And I'm not saying it's a small world is a great ride. It's culturally significant. It's important to the theme comp park community. In Disneyland. And we would still have that. Mm-hmm. But If you're Disney, right, and you're thinking about how do I add capacity, how do I add things that people really want to do? Is it's a small world worth Two new rides and a counter service restaurant that faces into Villains Land. So the other uh the other interesting thing, and by the way, I encourage our listeners to look these up on on Google Maps, but if you take the land of Barnstormer and Dumbo, Again, neither of which are really driving lightning lane. Do something there that might keep it, you know, super family friendly, but also add Lightning lane multipass that people want? Like those two things are contiguous. That's a lot of land. Yeah. I mean and technically, yeah, if you want to get really bold, you could take everything from mini adventures of Winnie the the Pooh to Mad Tea Party to Dumbo and the Barnstormer and do something of size there. I get it. So funny that you mentioned that remember, you know, if we go all the way back Yeah. For New Fantasy Land. Uh this was where Pixie Hollow was gonna go. And that was the flavor of the week, you know, uh at the Disney company at that point, and you know, there was a series of films and They got within inches of actually turning the key on that and backed away. So Um yeah, it's a it's it's a valuable chunk of real estate that viewing everything from a lightning lane sensibility, it's like are you are you earning your keep these days? Right. And it and again, like I you know, I think there's another Dumbo in Disneyland, there's another Winnie the Pooh, you know, global parks. Is the Mad Tea Party which again also exists in Disneyland. The Mad P N Mad Tea Party and the Barnstormer of such cultural significance or importance in the Magic King of history. that you would have to keep it. I mean it's not carcel of progress. Yeah. I mean I d it again, you know, the irony here is if you go with that mindset, the fact that this attraction exists someplace else. Uh and that opens up uh some some real estate. And and and face it again, this is the modern day Disney company where you know you've got Frozen, you've got Zootopia, you've got things that you can bring into the parks 'cause you know they worked elsewhere. Exactly. And more to the point people would pay to do a lightning lane to be first in line for Zootopia or first in line for Frozen ever after. Exactly. The uh the last one area that I wanted to point out, Jim, and and again, there's a image in the show notes. Um Swiss Family Tree House, Magic Carpets of Aladdin, and Enchanted Tiki Room are three attractions mentioned in this survey that also have among the lowest Guest satisfaction ratings in the park. And Jim, in this uh this image that I've put in the show notes I've noted a couple of things. One is in orange, all of the land that those three attractions occupy. And the other thing is you could technically reroute The walkway in Adventureland once you get past the bridge and make it go south and join back into Adventureland over where the jungle cruise is. As a temporary measure while you demo the inside of Adventureland. But Jim. Look at how much land. Getting rid of those three attractions. Swiss family tree house. Magic cover to the light in an enchantique room. Give you. In Adventureland. Mm. Now Magic Carpets of Aladdin does around eight hundred guests an hour. The tree house cannot be doing more. Than a couple hundred guests an hour. There's no way. And so Tiki Room's what? Maybe six hundred an hour? Mm-hmm. So is that Space. Which is the size of Pirates of the Caribbean plus some other things. Is all of that land Worth maybe fourteen hundred guests an hour. Yeah. And not to belabor the obvious here, but back when the Pirates of the Caribbean live action film franchise was white hot, uh, there were serious discussions. Doing Pretty much what you're talking about here. Oh, really? You know, effectively leveling uh Adventureland from the hub. all the way down to pirates and the notion of, well, you know, what if we made this into a pirates themed land? And you would have had you know would have been able to go aboard the Black Pearl. And there were all sorts of things that they They were thinking about but then um but that film franchise ran out of gas, though uh been some interesting developments on That side of the fence, by the way. Uh yeah. People might want to be ready for Mr. Dabar. Uh at the D twenty three expo this summer to talk about how Disney's getting back in the pirates business. But you didn't hear that from me, Len. I I've already forgotten what you've talked about. What I have no idea Okay. By the way, so speaking of pirates, um I and by the way, my uh my refurb would keep jungle cruise. Jim, could you imagine Jack Sparrow as jungle boat skipper? Oh Like how have we not done that already? That would be hilarious. Oh, that would be killer. Oh, yeah, so for our listeners, uh take a look at the uh the images and the um in the show notes. Let me know what you think about where uh where these attractions are and uh whether they would uh would make sense to replace Jim, I do note that we're still waiting on any news at all of a phase two refurbishment for Magic Kingdom, right? We've talked about, you know, the ten year plan. We know what the first five years are. You gotta think that these survey questions are being used sort of as tabletop exercises, right? No no no no. Absolutely. Absolutely. But at the same time when you You think about the amount of money uh that did get poured into Tomorrow land between the uh the Tron light cycle and and just recently the sort of the house keeping things of the new Walt uh introductory scene and the fixing up of the the tail end of Karas uh speaking of which do we have Yeah, no date yet on that. Yeah. Okay. But Buzz has been taken care of. I mean we still have the stitch space still is sort of like a Uh missing tooth and a smile. Yeah and I Monsters Inc. Laugh Lore is is a fine show, but I I suspect once Monstropolis opens um that's gonna be on borrowed time as well. But then to your point, that that opens up an entire corridor in Tomorrowland, right? It does. Interesting. All right. Well uh again, I just It'll be fascinating to see what happens on the other side of Piston Peak and Villains Land. The lazy Susan that is Walt Disney World, you know, they'll obviously show some love to Epcot yet again and the studios, but eventually they will circle back to the Magic Kingdom. In the thirties, and it'll just be interesting to see, you know, which side of the park does in fact see some significant work. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a couple of years until we start even hearing hints about this, but it's surveys like this that that are gonna inform. Like we'll go back and we'll you know, in in four years, we're gonna go back and say, Oh, that's survey. Mm-hmm. All right, folks, we're gonna take a quick commercial break. When we come back, we talked to Todd Martins from the Los Angeles Times. about the new Galaxy's Edge in California and what it's like covering Disneyland. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Story Worth. Hey there, just a reminder that Father's Day this year is being celebrated on June twenty first, which is closer than you think. 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Order right now and save up to twenty dollars at storyworth.com slash Disney Dish. Save up to twenty dollars at storyworth.com slash Disney Dish, Storyworth.com slash Disney Dish. We thank them for sponsoring today's show. Changes in sexual performance are more common than most people realise, and support doesn't need to feel awkward. With Med Express. Everything happens privately online. Start by completing a short consultation reviewed by UK registered clinicians. If eligible, treatment is delivered discreetly to your home. with ongoing support whenever you need it. You're not alone in this. Visit medexpress.co.uk slash podcast to learn more. Todd, let's uh let's start by asking you some questions here. So uh why don't you give our our listeners a background here about your Disney theme park history? When was your first visit? How often do you go? What appeals to you about your parks? Happy to. Uh so yeah, my first visit, I would say I don't remember the exact year. I grew up outside of Chicago. So my family would take yearly pilgrimages to Walt Disney World. And I was maybe five or six. I have an older brother and older sister. They're both, you know ten, twelve years older than me. So they went to D Walt Disney World before I was born. And then my mother decided she would never go back to Walt Disney World with a stroller. So you were a teenager on your first visit. I I had to wait until I could walk. So I think I was like six or seven. But um but I was immediately like many of us who go to these places as a young child. I was a really shy kid. I was slightly bullied as a child. Um you know, so I think I uh just a real quick story is like I remember distinctly as a child, like if we'd have family dinners on a Saturday, we'd go out to a restaurant. I could never order, you know, like the kids' burger or whatever. Like I would not speak to a waiter or a waitress. But at Walt Disney World I would like we go to a restaurant and I'd like Get up out of my chair and walk to the server and be like, excuse me, sir, ma'am, can we have more trailers? Yeah. So it I just immediately remember it making me feel welcome and safe. And you know, I didn't put those two and two together when I was six or seven, but yeah, you know, it created an environment where you could sort of be yourself. Yeah, that's fantastic. And so you your first trips were to Walt Disney World. When was your first trip to Disneyland? I moved to California in nineteen ninety seven for college, if I'm getting all my ages. For our younger listeners, Todd took a a covered wagon West. So I came out here for undergrad and uh W that was my first trip to Disneyland and it was a culture shock, you know, when you're going to Walt Disney World, we were taking long trips, like ten to twelve days to Walt Disney World. So when you're taking and just The monorail is one of my favorite attractions, you know, 'cause just as a little kid that just blew my mind. And then you go to the monorail at Disneyland and you go down Harbor Boulevard and you're like, Wait, why do I see like Normal fast food restaurants outside the Montreal Gate. What is this Denny's in my view? What are you like? Exactly, yeah. Um But over time I grew to really appreciate Disneyland for its history. You know, in the nineties and when I was college aged, you know, I was maybe more obsessed with music at that time. I still love the Disney parks. But that was in the nineties it was, you know, that era of crunch and punk and I kind of kept that a little hidden. But I I did love Disneyland and I I love the history of it. And once it became a full resort with California Adventure and the hotel editions. You know, it sort of became It's now my first Disney it's now it's not my first Disney love, but now I I love it probably more than I do Walt Disney World. Oh, that's interesting. So you had a front row seat for the transformation. Um Uh uh quick question. When did you start at the Los Angeles Times? Sure. I started in two thousand seven and I started on our web team focusing mostly on music writing. I used to work at Billboard magazine. I grew up wanting to be a music critic. And uh so I switched from I've over over my years at the times, I've done music, video games, theme parks, immersive entertainment. These days it's Heavily theme parks, Los Angeles sort of cool random, uh weird immersive events you can do and Occasionally a video game here and there. And how did you end up uh covering Disneyland for the times? Did they ask you or did you ask them? That's a really interesting story. And there's sort of you know, there's the initial story I pitched which was my first but then my coverage has also changed over the years and I I think, you know, I I became more confident and how I would cover it over the years, but My first pitch to the Times was in two thousand thirteen. I believe that was the year If I'm I don't have it in front of me. So but I believe that was year Tony Baxter became a Disney legend. Okay. And uh D twenty three, the twenty thirteen D twenty three. And um I pitched a story, I was writing about music at the time, but I was going to Disneyland a couple times a month and just loved The history of it and I thought, you know, Tony tells such wonderful stories. He's worked on Bigger Mountain. he was instrumental in bringing George Lucas into Disneyland. But it was kind of a good with him being the legend to talk to Tony. And I pitched a story and my immediate editor said yes. And I went and did the interview with Tony. He was great. It was my this is my first Disney story for us. And then my higher up editor, um, John, who's who's lovely and we're good pals and all that. But at the time he was like, we can't write about theme parks in the entertainment section. Is it a was it were they thinking like business section instead? Exactly. Exactly. Theme parks. The his argument was theme parks are part of the tourism industry. They belong in the business section. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Okay. Okay. They're not art. They don't belong in the entertainment section. Okay. All right. So those are fighting words. Is there a parking lot we're gonna meet in later with this guy? No, no, John's great. But at the time I was trying to make the argument that like You know, we cover movies in both sections. We cover music in both sections. We should do the same thing with theme parks because so many people go to these spaces and That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. Okay. Fantastic. All right, so we jump ahead to two thousand twenty six, and in fact, uh we are recording Uh this week's show on Friday May twenty second, which is the day the the new Mandalorian and Groco movie arrives in theaters and and uh also the Millennium Falcon smuggler's run uh ride. Uh changes out to a Mandalorian Grogo themed redo at Walt Disney World and and Disneyland. So Uh you you've experienced this one so far? Yes. I uh Disney land held a media event and um I was there and and rode the ride uh three times. I did each new location that you visit. Okay. And well I I have to ask, 'cause that this is you know, anybody who's been familiar with Star Wars uh Black Spire Outpost uh Batu Um Spugglers Run has been kind of a problematic ride, right? Yeah, I think you're right. I mean and I was looking back at my initial review of it in twenty nineteen, and I was overall positive. And I I did mention I write about video games. So I do love interactive experiences. I do love games. And I loved what I loved about it at that time was that it sort of felt like a full scale arcade. And You know, at at that time I focused on the role of the pilots and who tend to have the most to do in that attraction. And Over time, as I would continue to ride it, I think I I wouldn't say I agree to dislike it, but some of its shortcomings started to become more prominent. The fact that, you know, the engineers don't have as much to do, the fact that you're constantly Looking away from the screen in front of you to look to the buttons to your left. Um and just sort of the initial story of that attraction. Um, over the years I started to feel like it doesn't excite me. It doesn't have like it sort of became it sort it felt a little bit like you're doing an errand for Hando, like go pick up some crates. Yeah, instead of like joining the resistance or whatever, right? Like you're it feels like it feels like you're a contractor, not a participant in the rebellion, right? Yeah. So um I I I still enjoy going on the experience because I love video games. I love interactivity, and I think engineering wise it's a impressive Um, but yeah, I agree with you, Jim, that um it didn't it it wasn't aging as well as I wish it was. And what do you think of the the new run? So I think what Imagineering did with the uh the redo that focused it on the Mandalorian and Grogu, uh you know, it's tie in with the film. You know, but I do I do think they really did a fine job with this. I do think they took what are the limitations of that ride ride or the quirks of that ride and they improved every position in that experience. So like in just in the pilot, for instance. You know, you still have control over the ship. One person controls the horizontal, one person controls the vertical. Um but if you remember on the uh previous version of the ride, you could spend the entire attraction crashing the ship and being yelled at by Hendo. Yeah. Yeah. So then you you get off the ride and it's like I was just yelled at for four and a half minutes. Um but this time you They gave you still have pilot control, but it doesn't really allow you to crash it as much. You can still crash it a couple times, but there are moments where there's a guided sort of hand. And so like you can move it up and down, but you can only move it up and down so much. You're not going to be crashing it as much, which I do think is a wise decision. It does add more enjoyment to it. It does uh um feel make it feel a little faster. And um you're not being the action isn't being broken up by you hitting another crater. And then with the gunner and the engineers, you know, they added Grogu scenes. Um they added a few more uh animations with the gunner position so you can see uh some few more ships. can see different levels of the destruction. you have some more uh versatility in in where you can aim, which I I think is good if you're into that. You can also put on automatic and not worry about that. But um you know, I I do appreciate the fact that they did sort of up the animations there. And then the engineer now picks where you go. There are three different locations, three different Star Wars locations that you can visit. Okay, and that's up to the engineer. So you get uh a few seconds. I think it's like five seconds. So you could quickly, you know, shout out in the cockpit, you know, where are we going? Where are we going? Or you can just you know ignore your friends and go someplace else. But um each location has a different vibe, a different sort of atmosphere. You know, you can go to Endor and if you go to Endor, you're looking at the the destruction of the Death Star Two and it's very industrial and if you go to Coron, you know, then it's very like this sort of sci fi slightly like um cyberpunky sort of neon city. Um that's really kind of great to go through. And then if you go to Bethman, you're going through Cloud City and going through all these like really beautiful reddish mountain natural wonders, but also these sort of the bulbous sort of infrastructure of the city. And within each of these locations, there are multiple c locations, directions you can take. Could drive the Falcon left or right. So you have a little bit more uh a little more uh agency in in what you see. You do have a little bit more agency, yeah. And I I talked to people who've wrote it more than me and they like still didn't get to see um All the spaces, like on Tattooy I always mispronounce it. The Luke's home planet. That's where you start the attraction. That's sort of the uh like a 30 second sort of like uh training mission. Um, but you can go left or you can go right. And you know, most most cats don't really see that you can go right. And You know, I I I but I think these are cool little Easter eggs and then and then there's of course there's a Grogu mode, similar to the chewy mode for the hardcore guests who are gonna write it multiple times, but Um overall I think it's a huge improvement. I think imagineering really What impressed me is they really appeared to listen to guest feedback and sort of How do we you you're still picking up crates, but that's kind of been minimized. 'Cause now you're flying. You're you're going to break up a deal between pirates and ex-imperial officers. So you're really focused on the pirate ships and the imperial officer ships. So it does feel more like a Star Wars kind of dog fight, space flight sort of thing. Speaking of the the Star Wars aspect, I mean uh just the fact that, you know, uh in talking about the new places you go to that you mentioned mean these are uh any Star Wars fan will recognize uh Tatooine Corusant Bespin andor. I face it, the last time around in regard to Black Spire Outpost, you know, we were in the world of the Disney produced trilogies, which Uh, I again I d I think you mentioned earlier. You know, has it have it aged as well as I I think did they would have hoped. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the early version of the Traction Tube was also kind of pivoting or sort of nodding to the Han Solo film and that you were chasing like a train. at one point. You know, so I and And it had a very kind of dark and grey kind of look in the video's atmosphere and There's a lot more color and a lot more life. They they upgraded the Unreal engine. So technology has advanced in, you know, the first six, seven years. So it does look better as well. And um You know, I I I think uh yeah, I think people are gonna Especially if you had some qualms about the initial version. Cool. And what do you think is is driving this change in Disneyland's Galaxy's edge to go from, as Jim said, the uh the Disney produced films back to sort of the original canon. What do you think what do you think is the uh is the underlying reason for that? You know, I mean that's really interesting because um I was somebody who like I love immersive theater. I love stuff like Sleep No More in New York or the L. Sleep No More was great. Did you ever do um Life and Trust? I didn't get to do Life and Trust. No. Um I went to New York. Anyway okay, good. But anyway, I do want to go to New York to do masquerade the uh ball. Yeah. So just like a real quick ten second history is yeah, Galaxy's Edge was supposed to be the sort of immersive land where you would go in role play and There would be new characters and it would sort of remember things. It would all unfold in real time. And I know you're you and your listeners I'm sure know this history very well, but I think uh And I was very excited for all that. I I I thought it was very ambitious. I thought um if Imagineering and the Walt Disney company could pull it off, that would be a great feat. I think in some ways it was maybe too ambitious for a theme park. I think uh There were a lot of things that were publicly announced by Imagineering, you know, that never came to Galaxy's Edge. Right. You know, the special effects show, uh the dinner theater. Uh I mean even even the the fact that You did on Smuggler's Run would stay with you as you visited the land. Like that's that never really happened. That never really happened. Yeah. The the idea that your reputation would follow you never really happened. Yeah. No. Um So I think part of it was just because uh and then the idea that instead of, you know, having actors and like you know, I remember uh Scott Trowridge talking about a bounty hunter and a Scott Imagineer who Ledland talking about, you know, this bounty hunter would tap you on the shoulder in the canteen and you know, that never happened either. Never happened. Yeah. Um I do think it sort of became a little Maybe too ambitious for the company. Not necessarily the ideas and the art. Uh I think those were in in the right place. Yeah, but I so I think part of that is an acknowledgement that, you know, maybe they couldn't fully live up to these massive ideals of having actors run around the land. And without that, the land just kind of felt a little empty over the years. And you know, I think there were You'd walk through the land and you could see Kylo Wren, you know, every 30, 45 minutes or so. And um Ray every, you know, the same. Um in the early days they would interact. Like I I wrote about this in my one of my pieces. You know, I remember Ray sort of sneaking around the land with like 20, 30 people behind her all crouching and it was this really beautiful scene. Um and then it became a little bit more um stagnant over the years. But uh So I I I think Because of that. They had to sort of look at how can we bring more activity into this land. And one of the criticisms of the land since day one, there there was a segment of the community that was like, where is Darth the Star Wars fan community? It's like where is Darth Vader? Where is Hom? Where's Luke? Where is Leia? And at the time, Imagineering sort of talked about, you know, those stories are over, those stories are in the past. This is a place that's supposed to be. In the moment, in real time. You're supposed to become your own character. Um but you you can't become your own character if there's not Like a population to help you do that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You can't you can't LARP without other people, right? I mean, exactly. 'Cause then it just looks like mental illness, right. So uh yeah, exactly. So I think so I think it's a combination of I think it was those two things coming together that They were hearing from guests that they wanted these classic characters and they were looking at, you know, maybe the original idea of the land wasn't being fully realized. Okay, so now uh this new iteration of Black Spire Outpost is is getting up on its feet and What's the guest reaction so far? Yeah, so I I try not to like, you know, just Nity doesn't like it when you're interviewing guests, you know, but I'll talk to people online casually, like as a f as a friend, as a fan, and and I don't quote these people, but I just sort of like um and But also looking at sort of the emails I've received and the feedback we've gotten on our Instagram posts. I say it's lean's positive. I say there are a lot of people who I I'm surprised that there are a lot of people who are like me that were like, We wish the land had lived up to its original intent. But you know, and I was happy to hear that that people heard what Disney was trying to do with the land and maybe wish that they had been able to pull it off. But it's sort of the The sentiment seems to be I wish that would have happened, but if it didn't happen, I'll take more activity in the land via these characters and via these editions. Yeah, it's a fair compromise. Jim and I uh joke on the show all the time that Disney will open something and then the fans will tell them what it means. Mm-hmm. Right. So like the haunted mansion never really had a story, but yeah, fans tell you like what's basically what's canon and what's not. And stuff like that. And I think this is a good example of that. It's like Yeah, Disney Disney went with the original direction of you know, to Jim's point and what you said Todd about Yeah, we're gonna focus on the most recent three. three movies. And then the fans were like, No, you're not. You know? And I and I love that because it it shows the It shows two things. One, it shows that the the power that that the community has on influencing direction in the parks. Um but and and also it shows that Disney's willing to listen, right? It's like they they can say, like, okay, yeah, the first thing we tried that didn't work. Let's pivot here to something that that we can do. And they can still add their own touches to it, to your point, right? Like as they as they upgrade Millennium Falcon Smugglers Run. It's a better experience for everyone. So it shows that feedback from from from guests actually works. No, and it's a little bit like a Star Wars Greatest Fitz Land, which the LARPers may lament that They they never got to do that, but uh most theme part guests, you know, don't question like why is Darth Vader in the same spot that Ray isn't. They don't question that. They just like here's Darth Vader, here's Ray. Yeah. Exactly. Well, there are most guests and then there are the Disney adults, which by the way, in a a a a recent uh edition of your uh Mr. Todd's Wild Ride newsletter uh you talked about, and uh we'll get to that in just a sec, but first there's this And we're back. Uh with Todd Martins of the Los Angeles Times, who's just launched a terrific new uh newsletter about uh the theme park industry, Mr. Todd's Wildride. Uh and we were uh t touching on the issue of the Disney adult, which which which you have some thoughts on, right? Yeah, this is a controversial topic, Jim. You know what I'm saying? I I've written a couple pieces about Disney adults. I wrote a piece uh a little more than a year ago in defense of Disney Adult. and sort of talk to people about play. I think the Disney adult phenomenon is partly to do with the theme parks, you know, like as much as people love the movies, it's the fact that you can go to these places and live in these worlds. So the theme parks has really given birth to what we consider the Disney adult. And uh as somebody who loves theme parks and does believe theme parks are art, I I wanted to sort of talk about, you know, like why people go to these places and why these things matter. And there was a n recent article in the New Yorker and it was a fine article. The reporter did a fine job interviewing Disney fans about, you know, going into debt and You know, but there was also a part of me that thought we don't do this article for, you know, sports fans who are all sports fans. Yeah, yeah, theater fans, anything like that. Theater fans, Broadway fans. You know, it's not a uniquely Disney thing. And you know, but we do sort of center out these Disney adults. And there was a quote in that article. Um, like I said, the reporter Great story. I'm not criticizing reporter's work. There were but there was a quote in the article from an academic researcher who she went to and she was like, Why do people go to theme parks? And he sort of criticized Disney fans, you know, at least that's how I took it. You know, maybe I'm being a little sensitive. But um that, you know, they're going to these places because, you know, it's all laid out for them. It's all fake. They know what to expect. And that kind of rub me the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah. My biggest pet peeves is people who say theme parks are fake. Um drives me insane. Yeah, theme parks are no less real than here in Los Angeles, you know, the Getty Museum or Lacma, you know, theme parks are just as important. And And I remember when I was like fifteen, sixteen years old talking to the music critic of the Chicago Tribune about like how do I become a critic. And one of his pieces of advice to me was like, you can criticize the art or the band or the artist. You know, don't say anything you wouldn't say to their face. And then he was like, but don't criticize the fans. Yeah. Yeah. Like if somebody loves some artist that you don't like. Like more power to them for finding something in art. Like they're still being They're still loving something. So I kind of wanted to do a piece that was like, hey, you know. Disney fans are getting a lot out of these parks, these are artistic spaces. These are In my mind, they're stages, you know, where you know guests have some level of agency. So that's why going to, you know, Animal Kingdom or the Magic Kingdom or Disneyland or DCA always feels a little unpredictable and it's like each visit is a little different because I'm the one in control of the path. Like I'm the one in control of What's what I can do. And Yeah. You could stay in front cheerland all day long if you wanted to, right? You could. Yeah, exactly. But just because there's robots doesn't mean it's fake. It's just a different kind of theater. It's there, but the it's still it's still theater. It's still a theatrical art. So that's why I kinda just wanted to write a piece. Defending that and I did get a lot of hate, which I'm a soft person, so I I did spend a day in bed. Yeah. So so people wrote in to complain about that. There were there were people who criticize, you know, just wanted to sort of just wanted to say that um, you know, no Disney is a corporate Souless entity, which I don't disagree with. I mean I I do disagree with. Um sorry. Um, you know, but I I I don't disagree with that it's corporate art. You know, that absolutely I don't think even Disney would disagree with that. Um Andy Warhol would like a word, right? Yeah. But um but it was just sort of this idea and it and it was again attacking the Disney fans as being You know uh simple minded sort of people. And I was like, you know I'm I guess sure I'm a Disney adult, but I'm also a theater adult, a baseball adult. And I think all of us have a little not I'm not gonna say all of us. I I do have some friends who will not go to Disneyland. But I think uh Most of us who go to Disneyland or Walt Disney World, like you could be charmed by Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion and these classic attractions that have lasted for decades. So I think everybody's got a little bit of Disney adult in them. Yeah, I mean all Jim and I once visited uh the Holy Land experience in Orlando. And yes. Yes. You can approach that one of two ways. The way that we did it was To evaluate it on the merits of the craft itself. Like what's the story you're trying to present? And how well do you achieve that goal? Right. And that that's no different. Than evaluating a theater performance or a film or a musical performance, right? It's like, what was the artist trying to convey? And how well did they do it? And I think that's If you approach that a th park the same way. It's it's endlessly fascinating, right? I agree a hundred percent. And I think that's that's just what I'm trying to argue, you know, is exactly what you said and you you just I I would just echo your words, you know, that was well put. Awesome. Thanks. Okay. I mean I just i it is such uh you know, for me what's fascinating about two thousand twenty six is when you look at The theme parkation. I mean, for example, uh Len, you live in New York much of the year. You go to Times Square or Forty Second Street these days, and you know, I mean if you compare and contrast what that was like in, you know, the the the eighties and the nineties to the way that space is today, where it's like This is you know uh On the back of These entertainments, you know, uh enterprises in Orlando and Anaheim and you know, uh in Hollywood itself. I mean, look at Hollywood Boulevard these days. You know, uh Hollywood and Highland, uh you know, uh right across the street from Period? So much of the theme park is no longer confined to the theme park. Oh no. So if you g if you go to the uh the new wing at the uh Natural History Museum in Manhattan If you go in there and you don't immediately think Disney theme park influence. Like you've missed something. Like that you know, if you you go to the old wing where it's like, you know, here's a hallway and it's filled with stuffed beavers in bad lighting with plaques that no one's read in twenty years, right? You go to the new thing and it's like We could put Bluey in here and people would be fine with that, right? It's it's just the the influence That theme parks have In exposition and storytelling also useful in things like museums where you have to tell a story about you know what it is the thing you're seeing. Yeah. Most of these theme park firms, you know, they they do that museum work. They uh story about the wild safari park down in San Diego here. And that was Um a a collaboration between the park and a theme park firm. So yeah, that's fantastic. All right. Uh to to pivot back now to again your your great new newsletter, uh, Mr. Todd's Wild Brian, uh just recently you did a feature piece about Ruth Shellhorn, uh, the woman who You know, finally, finally, finally getting some credit for all of the work she did for the landscaping at Disneyland. Uh so I I I have to ask, w what made you decide to focus on that topic? Yeah, that's that's a deep cut. That's a deep cut. Oh thanks. I mean two quick Thoughts or reasons was um I wanted one of the since the newsletter just launched, I wanted one of the early columns to be sort of a historical column just to but Readers know we would dive into Disneyland history. And um Disneyland uh in uh recently launched a women's history tour of the park. Um it's a a hundred and ten dollar add on that you can do as part of your day. And as part of that tour, they talk about Booth's work and um I was as somebody who's been writing about Disneyland for about a decade, I was familiar with Ruth, but I never really looked into her. I'd never read the biography that came out about her and Um, I knew she worked with the Evans brothers, but I I didn't know all the details. And I was happy that Disneyland was talking about her on this tour. And then I was like, instead of just doing it a a column that says, Hey, Disneyland has a new tour. Let's just focus on maybe one of the one of the really important, you know, people, one of the really important women of this tour. And use that as a way to let people know that there's a tour. And also talk about somebody who's I think Ruth has been getting a lot more attention in in recent years and somebody's mainly been rediscovered and uh was integral in sort of making theme parks also garden spaces. So yeah. Yep. What what uh what specifically did you find out from uh from that research? Uh yes, I I reached out to uh Todd James Pierce, uh who does a terrific Disney history podcast, but he's also written number of books. And uh talked to him about Ruth and Um, I've talked to uh a couple other people here in LA who've studied Ruth over the years. And It just What I I think I just want to convey just sort of, you know, because you hear all these stories about Disneyland being influenced by, you know, the great um pleasure gardens of Europe and you know walk going and seeing Tavoli Gardens and uh you know seeing these places. And you know, but The amusement parks in America at the time weren't capturing that sort of grandeur and those gardens and And Ruth uh four or five months before Disneyland opened, Walt realizes that, you know, hey We we've got a problem here. These places aren't looking as beautiful as I wanted it to in my head. Um So somebody like Ruth comes in, you know, especially as the Evans brothers at the time were so focused on Adventureland. Okay, Jungle Cruise. Exactly. And you know, was able to sort of really sort of create pathways throughout Main Street and the hub and create garden spaces and really give it that beautiful sort of tone, you know. So I think it was You know, these days I go to Disneyland and Like I I try to start my day with the the little horse carriage. Um you know, and it just sort of admires sort of the flower work in the gardens and just to see that. A lot is the pathways of these theme parks change over the decades, especially at Disneyland. And you know, obviously some of most of the stuff we've planted is no longer there. But just the impact that she had in sort of creating the tone and the vibe of this place remains. And Ton, what kind of reader reaction did you get from that? Like is that something that the LA Times is is monitoring for your newsletter? We're definitely looking at it. I'm trying to uh I do have access to like our subscriber numbers. I try not to look at those. At least when I only when I have to. But uh You know, it's been positive so far. I think for the Los Angeles Times. You know, and I think for it being a general interest publication. We do really well with Disney history stuff 'cause there's so many people in this region who you know maybe aren't uh reading you know the Disney sites or the Disney enthusiast sites and podcasts. And but you know when something is like digs into the history and it's sort of, oh I they went to this part multiple times over their lives. Um so the L Times in particular tends to do really well with Disney historical pieces. That's fantastic. You I I again I'm just fascinated by this, you know, uh your gig at the Los Angeles Times you cover the parks professionally. You know, just from your comments in in today's interview, you're you're obviously also still a fan. And I've been upfront about that and and thanks to the Times for allowing me to do that. I think in twenty sixteen, after I'd written about the parks for a number of years, I did a column about why I go to the parks so much where I talk to like people like psychologists and brain researchers and and even great imagineers like Joe Rodie about why we need to do these Why we need to go to these places. And that was inspired by like a date I went on. A woman was like, You're, you know, in your late thirties. At the time I was in my late thirties, not in my forties. And she's like, You could go to uh anywhere in the world. Why are you going to Disneyland or Walt Disney World? I was going to Walt Disney World for ten days. And I was like I needed I needed an answer more than these places are fun. Um so I I wanted to sort of dig into it and I've been trying to do that with the coverage, but um So we try to bring a little first person into it. And but yeah, I'm definitely a fan and there's pluses and minuses with that because You know, you're Social activities becomes your work, as you guys know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's hard to visit it. Yeah. So so can you like turn off the reporter uh part when you when you go into the parks or are you always just looking at like Be an interesting story. No, it's it's a mix of both. You know, if if I go with other people, especially people who don't go as often, that's my favorite, is to go with somebody who only goes once every couple of years. 'Cause you could see the part through their eyes and you could see what they're noticing. Yeah. Yeah. So that that I I love doing. Yeah. Are there things in the parks that you you experience differently? When you're going as a fan versus as a reporter, like are there things you're like I will only do this if I'm covering it, or I'll only do this if I'm you know, if I'm not covering it? Uh not really. I mean, like do you like do you approach do you approach dining in the parks differently? Yeah, I know. You know, I've never been a huge Disney snack person. You know, like I I well I go to the parks I wanna you know obviously I gotta watch my budget. Yeah. But um you know, I I would rather have an appetizer at Carthe Circle than uh, you know A churro. And granted the appetizer is more expensive.