The Role of Pastors and Politics

Let's talk about the separation of church and state. The separation of church and state has really been one of the defining principles of American democracy for generations It wasn't designed to keep people from practicing their faith. It was designed to keep the government from choosing whose faate gets power. or If you don't have a faith Do you have the right as an American? but for some reason Um Religious nationalism has been, I shouldn't say creeping into our politics. It's really been careening into our politics, especially if you are paying attention to what's happening in the news. What's happening in Texas now, schoolchren are going to be required to read the Bible. And then if you listen to Tom Emmer of Minnesota, he's saying that this is a Christian nation. I want to bring in now Pastor Cody Dce a, pastor and friend of the show Pastor. U Vinings Church, right Vining'sake. Yes, Viningsake. Vining's Lake Yeah Lining's Lake Church. I want to be accurate Pastso, thank you for joining.. I am concerned, especially we'll talk about Tom Emmer in a bit When you heard the ruling about Texas and that school childildren are required to read the Bible. Now as you know, I'm a Christian And I know that you're a Christian. But I also believe in the separation of church and state. Is that problematic for you? W you bothother by that at all Yes Here'ss there's many responses to this, but yes, I was bothered by it for many reasons. One of which is, I think we just need to be honest and upfront about what is happening here I don't believe the governor of Texas or the people that made this decision in Texas care about Christianity. Now I know that seems like a harsh statement, but here's why I say that. Because if they did then they would be, according to the Bible, welcoming the immigrant feeeding the hungry. Cing for the sick and loving their enemies You're not seeing that at all And it's telling Governor Abott in Texas He towed funding for federal summer lunch programs for low income children while simultaneously making Bible required reading in public schools That's problematic And I would pause there and say, it sounds to me in many ways who obviously haven't read the Bible that it should probably be required for are the people who are making it required for people in school. So What I mean is the governor might want to read the Bible himself because if he does, he would see that A understanding the way of Jesus would be actually feeding low income kids in that state And so it's kind of on par, Don, to be honest with you, I'm not overly shocked by it. I grew up evangelical and growing up evangelical, that's kind of the way that Christianity was. It was, let's starve the kids that desperately need food But simultaneously let's make the Bible required reading. So I'm not overly shocked by it when I heard it because I just don't believe A lot of what's happening right now in our nation is actually a deep concern for Christianity. I don't think they care about that. I think they care about power. I think they care about authority. I think they care about keeping the hierarchy in place the way it is. And you might ask the question then so why even bother with the Bible with God? Because this is how U you create some sense of authority Because if you can use the Bible, if you can use God, if you can use the Ten commandments or whatever it is you're trying to do Um your political agenda becomes God's agenda, right And what happens at that point is any opposition to it then You are equated as an enemy of God. You see what I'm saying? So any critique becomes blasphemy, notot just I disagree with your opinion. It's old, you're not disagreeing with my opinion. You're disagreeing with God. You're disagreeing with Christianity. You're disagreeing with a long tradition here. And any accountability then if you'll notice, actually becomes persecution. Have you noticed this? If you haven't, you will notice it. They'll say things like, o eople don't want B We're just persecuted Christians here. No You've just tried to take the stance. God. as some act of authority, And now you're being held accountable because it's unconstitutional And then you're claiming, well, this is persecution. and that's just not case, Jesus and Paul B Um had a metric And they said it like it's very simple, yet profound They said, Ohh, well, you'll know a tree b fruit. So I'm not like fooled by this. Oh, look, we're becoming a Christian nation. No, because I've seen the fruit on the tree and the fruit, the fruit's not good. It's not good. And hereere's the thing about fruit done. it doesn't lie Frit doesn'te Like you can actually just look at it and just see. It doesn't lie. You see what's happening with immigrants. You see what's happening to the most marginalized people in our country And this is a part of the basics of Christianity one hundred one Just take one course in the Bible, one And you will see this is what the message, the movement of Jesus was all about I it's been something has been on my heart lately as I say and I've noticed that Just the, um manipulation that happens in church around churches and around Christianity and around especially the evangelical movement. And again, they'll say this is, you know, as if it is a right. for them to be able to just, I'm just going to be honest, this flat out lie and I believe it's in order to keep power I believe it's in order to keep people controlled to control people. And what you said was similar to what, you know, James Tala Rico is running in Texas And he was on Stehven Colbert's show not long ago. I think it was his last appearance on the show before the show left the air And he was asked a very similar question as I asked. What do you think about people who use religion for political power? And here's what he said. Well, for fifty years, the religious right a political movement that is the Perfect description for it They convinced a lot of our fellow Christians that the most important issues were abortion and gay marriage two issues that aren't mentioned in the Bible, two issues that Jesus never talked about Jesus in Matthew twenty five tells us exactly how you and I and every one of our fellow believers, how we're going to be judged and how we're going to be saved by feeding the hungry. by healing the sick Welcoming the stranger Nothing about Go to church, nothing about voting Republican It was all about how you treat other people.'t And lookook, and I don't think he's wrong. I mean it's something very similar to what you said, But I find that churches on Sunday morning, many of our evangelical churches are telling people that in order to be Godlike, you have to be MAGa. you have to vote this way, you have to vote Republican. And if they're doing it on the Democratic side, that's not right too What do you make of what he said? and I would imagine that you agree with what he said because a lot of the things that people that become issues like the issue of transgenderism and transgender athletes in schools and all that we're seeing with the Supreme Court. It's Why are we focused on that Yeah Yeah I think J why are we hurting the least of these That's right. I think James Talerico spot on there.. And I think a part of it, Don I feel like One of the what you have right this second in my opinion, is like as we approach the midterms I feel like you're going to have the grasping and kicking and screaming more than we ever have as we approach because obviously there's some fear there with what's happening right. I mean, you heard Speaker Mike Johnson just recently say, o my God, if the Democrats overturn this and they actually win in the midterms, then we're going to be and now he didn't use this word. hereere's the word that's actually should have been used He said they're going to come after us. What he meant was is we are going to be held accountable Right? So he's terrified of any accountability that might actually happen coming up in the midtermsm. So my st I you I want you to I want to play that for you. I'm gonna play that please and then we'll talk about it. If we were we were lose the mid ttermss heaven forbid These Democrats Y'all, impeachment iss not even the big concern. They will turn every committee of Congress into an investigative body and they'll go after the president's family, the cabinet, his donors, and friends. Half of you in this room will be targeted. I run the protion program. I'll take care of you. Okay. We're gonna to win. We're gonna winter, o All right Im sorry Pastor, go ahead I just wanted to hear that and I want our viewers to hear it Yeah, no worries. I think I think my theory is is that he knows Mike Johnson knows this administration knows that They are slaughtering the Constitution, they are slaughtering the wall And they feel like they seem to think that they're getting away with it, but here's the thing. they're not People are keeping records. We have receipts. Lawyers have receipts, attorneys have receipts, governors have receipts. If they don't think people aren't watching, we are. This isn't a threat It's just literally there are consequences to actions. You cannot just do what you want to do and expect zero accountability. That's not how it works in any system at all And so I think a part of what we need to be reminded because as this thing barrels out of control I think it's going to get sadly, a bit worse as the midtermss come. Part of that reason is is because they know this might be one of their last straws. So they're going to, hear me out, leverage everything they can, including God and the Bible in ways that we've never seen before. That's my theory And I think a part of that is Many reasons, One of which is they just want that stamp of approval. They want some sense of a grasp of authority. So they use the Bible because they know a lot of Americans see the Bible as an authority. And so they're just leveraging everything they can to make sure it empowers their political ideology. I would pause and would quote Kirk Cameron to them. All right, whichich I don't think I've ever quoted Kirt Cameron in my life. All right, other than maybe growing pains growing up. But Kirk Cameron, D, Kurk Cameron said something like seven months ago that I just happened to see a video of it and I was like, oh my God. That's actually profound. And I've used it a couple of times in conversations with Christian nationalists because I In some ways, it may be the only thing that actually slows down a bit of this authoritarianism right now. And what Kurt Cameron did is he just asked kind of a simple question. He said something like this. He said if one president can decide who is a threat What happens when the next president believes you are a threat And what he was doing in context is he was just saying Hey Let's be very careful we are doing as people in power Because we may not always be in power And so I would just pause and I would say to Governor Abbott. I would say to Trump. I would say to every MAGA member that is beyond thrilled because they're in a position of power Great. Pause What happens When the powers you approve today are inherited by someone you disagree with tomorrow becausecause here's what I know. That is very likely And the reason I say that is because for evangelical Christians, they may look at the situation in Texas and probably a lot of them do. I've grew up evangelical. My parents probably absolutely haven't talked to him about it, but I'm sure they're like, Yes, look at us. this is why we voted for Trump because man, we're getting Christian again, bringing God back in schools. Okay, I just want to pause and say this, as you celebrate the fact that you have now made the Bible required reading in the state of Texas Are you okay If Mum Donny in New York City makes the Kuran required reading. Are you okay with that Because I want to remind you, I want to remind you that you will not always be in power. And I think it's okay for people on the underside of power to leverage that to just say, hey, let this be a check in a balance for you in a world where there seems to be no checks and balances One thing that they can't deny is that all leadership Eventually all positions of power fade. They do. And the reason I know that, check it out, Governor Abbott because I've read the Bible And the Roman Empire is no more, right? The Assyrians are no more. The Babylonians, the greatest empire of the day in the Old Testament are no more. Positions of power come. And they go And I don't care who's in that position in power, it will eventually fade And I'm in Atlanta right now in the heart of the Bible belt We got a church filled with people And I have to tell you something, we all collectively feel it The MAGa movement is fading. You feel it You feel it, You start to see it. I believe Dunam. I'm not just trying to be optimistic here I believe we are on the front edge approaching a post Trump society. And I think This administration feeles it too I think they know it. And I think based on some of the comments, even like we just saw with Mike Johnson, I think you see They're terrified of it. And one last thing I'll say Don about what's happening in Texas right now, because I think it's just like a microcosm of what's happening on a macro level Um, Just a side note, and I say this from lived experience When you force Kids to read the Bible I actually know something about that because I grew up my father, my father was a Southern Baptist pastor Um, Dwn, I was forced to read the Bible. I was forced to go to church. We didn't have a choice. Like you're going to church Um, sameame here Okay, so here's what I will say I have a church filled with people as a pastoral who were also forced to go to church forced to embrace their parents. Religion And here's my experience. there will be two responses. and I'm not so sure Texas is going to like any of these responses One And this is just lived experience. When you force a kid to read the Bible almost guarantees you They will not read it as an adult. Here's what I'm trying to say If you don't want a kid to read the Bible when they're an adult makeake it mandatory for them as a child because what would generally happen is They will either reject it al togetherether and become full on atheist because not that atheism is bad actuallyctually, reason a lot of people step into atheism is because it is the healthiest step out of the toxic religion they were hand And O Don. here's the other one which is where I fall They'll read that Bible because it's mandatory. And they'll actually begin to look at the details And what they'll find is they'll start taking Jesus more seriously than the institutions that are teaching them about Jesus And they'll start seeing the Bible in a true way rather than the way that's being interpreted to them by the people who are forcing them to read the Bible and they'll go, who, that's bullshit. I don't know if that's where you're going, but that's what happens. one hundred percent is exactly where a lot of us are right now. That's why we say we're post evangelical, right And we're still gathering, we're still going to church. Part of the problem is We didn't walk away from that institution because we were walking away from Jesus. We left because we were taking Jesus seriously We left because they took Jesus seriously enough to notice The church wasn't taking Jesus serious And so what will happen is they won't become more committed Christian nationalists, like I think they're trying to groom and disciple them to be They'll actually start asking questions about Christian nationalism and why it looks so little like Jesus. So I'm not so sure it's going to work out the way they hope that it will work out D Lent was brought you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Now, if you have been following the news like I have, you probably saw What just happened in Texas State education leaders approved a required reading list that includes Bible passages for public school students. Whether you agree with that decision or not, it raises a big question Who decides where the line is between religion and government That's exactly why organizations like the Freedom from Religion Foundation exists. As America approaches its two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, it is worth remembering that our Constitution protects your freedom to practice a religion, to change your religion or have no religion at all. Those freedoms only work when government stays neutral. The founders rejected religious tests and established a government accountable to the people Those principles still matter today The Freedom From Religion Foundation works every day to defend the First Amendment and everybody's freedom of conscience Learn more or become a member. R f.S slash D or text D to five eleven five eleven. That's D to five eleven five eleven Txt fees may apply. Support comes from Lee Now it feels like everywhere you look these days, somebody is talking about weight loss injections. For a lot of people, they have been a game changer. They're not for everybody Maybe you don't like the idea of giving yourself a shot every week. 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The promo code is lemon Here's what I believe You can tell me you' wrong we can free to disagree But the Jesus that I know would be hanging out with the transgender kids The Jesus that I know would be going and spending time with the addicts. The people the Jesus that I know be turnurning flipping the tables and the money wherever the money grubbers are and the people who are refusing to give help to hungry children for lunches You know what I'm saying? He would be rejecting those people. And so that's why I don't understand why Why these evangelical Christians or whomeever, religious nationalists why they they I understand why they're doing it because it's about control and I'll get to them I don't understand for the life of me how they don't get it and what book they're reading Because it's supposed to be again, about the least of these and rather than judging trying to figure out rather than banning trying to be more inclusive, bringing more people into the fold So I don't really understand it, but does it make sense? I don't understand it. But I do if you know what I mean. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yes, yes. I mean, that's how so many of us feel about how we were raised. At one level we get it. at one level we also don't get it. I mean, we're all still scratching our heads going, how do you not see my friend Melinda Hill which we've had recently at our church, she's fantastic. but she said, Yeah that's so weird. She's like, it's like evangelical American Christians are flunking an open book test. And I love that analogy. It's like we have an open book in front of us. literally the Bible's like open. We see it. We see what Jesus is doing. We see how he moved, how he lived in the world. But Don, a lot of that goes back to, in my opinion so much of a distortion that You can trace historically, but I mean, so much of it came early on in the evangelical days when it became so much about not following the way of Jesus, but it became all about this head religion that somehow you had to line up with correct doctrine, right? And so everything got forced in that mode and lots and lots of people began to step away from the fact, well, what did Jesus actually do when he was here? And I think that's by and large why the prophets right now have a word have a word for us and Jesus comes from a long line of prophets, right? Like I mean, when you read the Gspels, Matthew Mark, Luke and John, what you see are a lot of those gospel writers, they're trying to show you the best that they can. They're using everything they've got to show you who Jesus is to them And particularly like Luke is a perfect example He's saying, hey, I want to show you Jesus in the long line of prophets. So think about all the Old Testament. I mean, if they want to talk about the Bible, then let's just talk about the Bible. All those Old Testament prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekel Daniel Josei, Joel, Amos, Obdiah, Jonah Micah, N all, name them. I mean, that's the entire Old Testament, Most of it. What's interesting about that is is Jesus still falls in the line of those prophets And every one of those prophets They they Do exactly what you just said critiques By and large, yes, they're exposing the emmpire. But their critiques are by and large for and dialed into the religious systems Hovering everything that's happening And so that's how Jesus showed up. When he came, he stepped into that moment and he says, yeah, this is hypocrisy at its finest And I think that's what you're seeing right now. I mean, there's not a lot of difference, which is why I think the words of the prophets and Jesus are so threatening to a lot of Christian nationalists right now is because they don't know what to do with it. I mean, here's a verse that comes to mind. Isai This is the P prophet Isaiah Isaiah one hundred fifteen. He talks about all the festivals and all the things that you're doing in Jesus' name. these large gatherings and shows and your Bible readings and your prayers and everything you do ' you keep claiming we're a Christian nation, which I just wanna pause done and say Why do we keep insisting we are a Christian nation Was it Christian? Was it when we enslaved Africans? Was that the Christian moment Was it when we committed genocide to indigenous people? Was that the Christian moment? Please tell me when it was Christian. and don't tell me the founders were all Christian. I've got a list of them I have studied them. Yes, there were some Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, but please hear me do a little bit of research. Washington rarely spoke about Jesus directly. Thomas Jefferson rejected miracles and the Trinity. Benjamin Franklin admired Jesus but questioned his divinity. John Adams was a unitarian, but rejected the Trinity. James Madison championed religious liberty tellell me we're a Christianation. Also When did we just completely disregard the Constitution, right? I mean The Constitution itself clelear Hunger shall not make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof Think about The line Thomas Jefferson gave This is just kind of like, this is when I went to seminary, it was like church history, American history one hundred one. I mean, these are basic principles that I'm not sure a lot of the people in our administration ever even encountered or if they have, they've somehow twisted it in their minds to make it sound like something else. Butom Thomas Jefferson's the one who coined the phrase a separation of church and state And what he was doing is he was writing a letter, eighteen oh two. He was writing a letter, not to atheist He was writing a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association And what he was saying to them was because they were concerned. they were being oppressed by like a state religion, the congregationalists. And what he was saying was, hey Let me explain, let me break down the Constitution And that's when he said, I contemplate with sovereign reverence the act of the whole American people, which declared that their legislator should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church in state And then let's move to seventeen ninety seven It was unanimously approved by the Senate and signed by President John Adams Qote, the government of the United States of America is not in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. So all I'm saying is is these people that are like forcing They' Religion on Americans They're having to move over founders themselves and they can twist it and turn it and try to convince themselves that the founders were for it. But the founders, even the ones that were Christian are like One thing we know as Christians is we do not want to create a space where any religion is forced on Americans And here's what I would say, We are not a Christian nation, D We are a nation with Christians and Muslims and atheist and Buddhist And that's the beauty of America And that's we're fighting for and what we need to continue to fight That is a perfect segue to what I want to play for you next This is Minnesota Representative Tom Emmer The battle has been engaged since they left the garden. It's been It has been the same battle. And it just keeps getting more difficult because now our founders who are Christian They created a Christian based nation And I come from the People's Republic of Minnesota that has been so mismanaged by criminals. They're criminals. They lie, they cheat, and they steal. And by the way, they let immigrants who come to this country not wanting to assimilate lie, cheat, and steal from them our money. What do you think Well, I think I just said everything I wanted to say if I was standing in front of that guy, but also just note, notice how they continually demonize people I mean, this is classic Classic this administration peopleople that They oppose, that do not agree with them, that do not line up with the hierarchy that they want, they continue to demonize them And maybe if I was going to say anything, I would just say, here it is again Why do they insist on this being a Christian nation? I'll tell you, part of it, Don, I really believe they have to keep saying it And when you have to keep saying it, don't you begin to wonder why you have to keep saying it? Maybe the reason you keep saying it is because you're trying to convince yourself it's true because maybe there's some actual deep sense of guilt that resides inside of you because you know it's not true. Maybe the reason you keep saying it is because You have to try to convince the world that it's true because the world's looking at you going If that's true, I don't want anything to do with that Christianity If America is a Christian nation I don't want that Christianity because I've seen it. And it opposes the way of Jesus. And I would just say to that man, I don't know who he is But I'll go back to what I started and never finished Prophets Jesus They spoke to this. they saw it Jesus again and again, the Sermonal Mount, perfect example. I mean, all over the Bible from Old Testament to New Testament You see, he continually speaks to the religious people people in empire that keep trying to grab hold of religion and use it in some way And he just goes back, Don to exactly what you just said earlier And Isaiah sums it up Aaiah one fifteen When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you Even though you make many prayers I will not listen Why becausecause your hands are full of blood And it doesn't just stop there. It's just a critiqu There's an invitation And this is the thing that I would say to these people. I'm honestly not interested in all the cultural wars. I'm genuinely not interested in trying to convince this guy we're notot a Christian nation I would invite him Just like I would invite Franklin Graham, just like I would invite my own parents, just like I would invite Mike Johnson and Trump and anybody else who claims to be some Christian I would just invite you the way Isaiah invites becausecause he says, yeah God God's not listening to your prayers, He's not impressed with your Bible studies. He's not thrilled because you have now got the Bible back in schools. Great job. Wonderful. When you die, God's gonna to be bl. Well, you did my work in the world. You got little kids reading the Bible. Noope, noope,ope He says, I'm not impressed because your hands are full of blood. What is that image giving us? He goes on to explain verse sixteen, here's the invitation. Wash yourselves Make yourselves clean. Remove your evil deeds from before my eyes. Cease to do evil Learn to do good Now you might pause there and any good evangelical will be like Rot on I agree with all that What does it mean? learearn to do good? And here it is This is the core central message of Jesus. This is why Jesus, in the first moment that he had a chance to stand up in the synagogue in his own hometown, he quoted Isaiah And he gave his own life's mission This is why I am here. And Isaiah says it Learn to do good Seek justice resescue pressed defend The orphan fleed for the widow That's what it means to be a Christian Being a Christian means anything That is it And so for me and our little collective We're going to give our energies in our efforts in our voice for speaking up for and alongside with and elevating the voices of the oppressed, of the marginalized, and the people on the edges. because I believe it with all my heart I think that's where Jesus is. I think that's who Jesus is. He is inside all those individuals And he's crying out He's crying I don't believe Jesus is going. Please, America get more Bibles in schools? No. How about you feed the hungry? Let's just start there Let's start there Um, And Further into that soundbite, he said, he was sick and tired of being called racist or whatever or bigoted you know but the way he said it was just you know, just aborrant Um, and and then it was very similar to And I have a question on the other side. the plate roll this This has been going on for over a dozen years. Go home. Out. We know our country is better than yours. because we filled it our work ethic and our culture and our values You being here only duc it for us, those who built it and live it. And half of you people more than half of you won't assimilate We don't want you We don't care if you're offended. Get out. go home Go back to fucking Haiti, sorry I just I'm thinking about our friends in Ohio who've been dealing with these TPS Haitians For years now Okay So I'm wondering why because she would consider herself a Christian or a person a faith And Emmer said the same, I'm tired of be called racist or whatever Why do people think that they can use God or somehow religion of the Bible to as a defense against them being racist. That doesn't, that doesn't. U dis I want to disabuse them of the notion that they're not being racist U just because they are quoting the Bible or they call themselves Christianans. Yeah, you another thought that's interesting to me. I had not seen that Mean Phy clip. I saw it flying around, but I just didn't look at it because I knew it would be disgusting. But put two things. One, I think she knows exactly what she's doing. I mean, she's trying to get ratings, it's TV, it's one of her things, That's what she does, which honestly is probably more disgusting than anything. And that doesn't change the fact that I think what the way she's speaking there is probably actually from the heart I've learned like this rebranded racism that's happening all over right now, even within my own family. I just don't play that game anymore because I'm actually of the belief part of the reason that a lot of people like her and people like evangelical Christians that support of Maga do it because They see something in him that's also in themselves. They actually, in many ways, they probably wouldn't come out and say it, although Meghgan and Kelly just did, but part of it is U they also deep down inside believe that there is a hierarchy and they sit at the top of it. and I think that's By and large, while a lot of people support him also think because of Trump Many people like this are emboldened now more than they've ever been. I think that's going to be something Don we deal with for a lot of years down the road. I think what's going to turn that knob down is My God, I done I close my eyes every time I say it because I cannot wait for the day, but accountability and justice will come And I'm talking Nuremberg type trials where literally people are gathered around and they are watching on televisions and we are watching this administration be held accountable and be brought to justice And that day will come and I think it' turn the knob down a little bit on how much Racism has been just emboldened that you can say anything you want and there are no consequences to it I mean, Don, it was not that long ago. Isn't it interesting? L I hear my parents talk about man making America great again And they go back to this time, but isn't it wild? Even in my own lifetime, Donna I just turned forty five, I just turned forty five like a week ago And I swear I start to sound like Moan father, because I look back and I God how fast Just our climate has shifted in the last decade because fifteen years ago If she had said that, She would be done And now That is celebrated in many ways People see that and they go, Oh, she's just bold. She's just saying it like it is. No, she's not. She's saying it like she is. That's what she's doing And I think a part of it D goes back down to first, this is nothing new what you were saying Why do they feel like they can the racist justified with their Bible verses. I mean, that's, you know, that's history. History is filled with movements that use Christ's name, but ignored Christ's teachings in hisis way. Crusaders, slaveholders, segregationists KKK today, Christian nationalism It's just a part of it Also It's very telling It's very telling When you have people like Megan Kelly or this other gentleman that spoke are far more concerned about perceived as a racist calledalled racist than actual racism that's happening in our world right now And I'm just saying Man, a different approach. I mean, could you imagine? Could you imagine a news anchor like Maggan Kelley instead of spouting off Dorner thing to get reviews? Can you imagine if If she just paused and She's like, Yeahah, this is actually a deeply complex problem. My heart goes out. uned. theseese Haitians and immigrants that are here many seeking asylum My heart goes out to them and they deserve equal treatment in justice. And Could you imagine Taking a completely different approach then Get out of here This isn't your home. And Imagine imagine placing your shoes, placing your feet in the shoes person that's actually on the underside of And the reason I invite you to do that is because I think that's what Jesus did over and over again. He knew something about that because done Like we've lost all sense of tenderness country I'm not even sure this administration would understand when Jesus said, blessed blessed are the one of the be attitudes, Bessed are the meek. for they will inherit the earth I'm not even sure this administration knows what that word meek means Not even sure if they know what Having a tender, compassionate heart. actually looks like That's the way of Jesus. So if you're going to use hisis name maybe you should actually start following his way I always this is why you are my church on Sunday. I don't know if you know see the internet. Well, let me tell you something. First of all or w, hold on not just on Sunday, but you can get it anyt timee. I don't have to tun in on Sunday. I do on Sunday, but other times if I need some inspiration, I also tune in and I catch your clips Whatever. So you've become my spiritual advisor, so to speak. Well, listen, I likewise, I feel the same about you. You help keep my feet on the ground Like I listen this morning to your well, I listen to your ten AM live and I listened to the whole thing because I was trying to lean into all the Supreme Court decisions that took place today. And by the way, if just pause and say thank God for the decision of birthright citizenship that was passed. Sadly. I can't believe first of all's on the table. like we're even discussing this, which is a whole other thing. I listen actually to that whole segment of yours and I listen closely to your monologue and I would encourage all your listeners. As I have gotten to know you, man, there's just a lot of gratitude first of all for the work that you do. In many ways, I think independent media as a whole is a conversation that we need to have. and you're actually coming to our space sometime soon. And so we'll have a discussion about this in front of our people. I think a lot of what I'm doing is very similar to what you're doing. We're just in different fields. You went in independent media, I went into a non denominational stream in the church world Because of all of the red tape saying you can say this, you can't say this. I couldn't live that way. Like there had to be some sense of liberation. Doesn't mean I don't have accountability. I do. It just means that I could not beholden to one particular man who owned everything that said what I can say and what I can't say. And think I think that is a lot of that is what's happening, Don. withith you, with media all over the place, people are going, no, we're not going to live this way. We're not going to be terrified to actually tell the truth when the truth needs to be said. And I think that's a lot of what we have in common I'm saying the relationship works both ways because I listen this morning and Brother, you were like Everything you said about racism this morning. in your monologue. I mean, it was a full sermon. likeike I know you don't call it that, but that thing, I mean, I just wish I could have amplified it in many ways because what you were saying is so true. And I've been moved by your own work I mean, I just finished your second, what it have been your first book, I guess. This is the Fire And right towards the end, you you make a comment about what it's like for you having been raised as a black gay man inside the church and what your experience has been like. And u Yeah. you you've been brought to this moment for a reason. I know that you know that, but I think both of us have. I think as our guides because we all had guides, as our guides move out of the way. I've been a bit discouraged. Like Colbert was a guide for me. I love Stephen Colbert. I would watch him D on Saturday nights to get ready for a Sunday morning sermon You know, like when I was a kid, before I would play a baseball game, I'd watch professional baseball. People like, how do you get fired up? How do you get amped up before Sunday morning I used to actually watch Colbert a little bit And uh because I think he was very intelligent but I also think he carried A heart of tenderness And so I would watch him to get amped up. and now that he's gone. I've been a little bit sad, but also at the same time, I asked my wife, Kie, I said, man, I feel like all my guides kind of stepping away or stepping down for many reason forced away or whatever And I was like, I just it feels a little empty. And then she said to me, she said, Well, that's That's how it works becausecause as those guides of your step away, it means it's time for you to step up and be a guide for other people And I think that's true for the both of us. I mean, here we are, our worlds were brought together and we're here now in this moment of all moments during a Trump administration twenty twenty six And if I could ask God, why now? I think the divine voice is like, well, why not now? why not now? What better time for you to be friends with Don Lemmon And you both be talking about what is happening right now in twenty twenty six because As you say in your Newsletter on Substack every morning. I love it Believe it, Don. I do. sometometimes I'll get up and read it So people were like becauseuse I don't have like I don't have a pastor So I have friends and I'll get up and I'll read First of all, what you guys did with the The newsletter, the lucky seven is brilliant because a lot of times I don't have time writing sermons, I'm talking to people who are dealing with real problems in the real world. So I don't have time to catch the news, so I can get on every morning and I can just see those headlines. likeike, yes, that's what I need to know what's happening in our world But you always make it a point to talk about how good things are going to happen and I don't think that's just optimism. I think that's an ingrained hope within all of us. and I I'm actually I'm actually really hopeful, Don. I'm hopeful What we're in right now for whatever reason U is what we're in And we continue to work hard to shift it and change it and a move towards universal human flourishing. Also Um Mbe So a new humanity being birth and formed out of all the chaos right now. That's my hope That's my hope. I think I think and I think we I think we are Hming together collectively a new humanity U and lots of people talk about it in different ways people talk about it second tier consciousness The idea that we're moving into greater stages of consciousness as a civilization. Part of that was this full Um just Pndulum swing of what's transpired in our world today because That's like the last grasp of archaic levels consciousness that have to release themselves. and so So maybe the chaos is is shaping creating something and If nothing else, I don't know about you, but I refuse to let it be wasted Um so so everything that's transpired over the last decade and God forbid, two more years two plus more years Um Yeah, I'm going I'm going to use every bit of it that I can T show the world what we don't want to be. My friend Rob Bell says it like this. He says he was just with us recently He shook the whole Christian Foundation years ago. He wrote a book called Love Wins, The Bizarre ideea. that God might get what God wants in the end, that there is no eternal conscious torment. whoa Big idea He wrote that book and everybody freaked out, but he said something so profound I love it. He says, you have North stars and you have South stars Nor Stars are those people that you look at and you're like, I want to be like that And then you have South stars. Those are the people you look at and go. One thing I don't want to be is that and Donald Trump is a South star. He's a South star for our nation. May our nation look at him and say One thing we don't want our nation to look like It's that. And may we learn from it And may a new humanity be birthed and born out of everything Yeah, that's happening right now. So anyways, I'm just rambling, but I'm just saying to you I feel Donna, I feel the same way, man. I really do. I don't know why we're together, but It's it's one thirty on a What is the today Tuesday And july fourth is coming up this weekend And I'm just saying, U, here we are The absurdity of life in general. We're on a floating rock. Flying through space. I just remember that. Flying through space. It's all so effed up in the best ways. And we just all take it. We all take it. We're like, oh, this is normal. Yeah, this is totally normal No, none of it is, none of it is. The fact that I'm making sounds out of my mouth and you understand those sounds makes no s. through a microphone and a and a camera, but as you were I receive all of that and I I had to focus not to get overwhelmed by it becausecause I received that, by the way, thank you very much. But I thought about the prayer in the scripture that I got this morning. So the prayer that I received thisorning says the same God on both sides of your Jordan supplies what your next step requires, right And then It talked about the scripture of the day, which was two Kings two eleven And then it said and then it says, u Lord, because you were talking about people who some of your mentors are stepping out of the way. Lord, as you place powerful men and women in my life as mentors. I have made the decision that I will not stop pursuing them even when it's inconvenient even when it's convenient to leave and be on my own. I declare that I will not leave or part ways until you tell me do so, God when other people in my field try to discourage me and dissuade me from holding fast to my process, I will ignore them because I am not moved by external voices, but by internal convictions. because proximity determines my ability I will stay close until I receive a double portion of the wisdom and knowledge that they possess I praise you Lord because in your goodness, you also give me the opportunity to go above and beyond those who guide me so that I can be blessed Be a blessing to those coming after me in Jesus' name. ammen So that was this morning they got from my because Per. com which I like. And so I got that. But then as you were saying, you watched Stehven Colbert to prepare, I used to watch and prepare and listen to as I was working out TD Jakes Oh yeah. And and sometimes I would feel the same way at TDJs. I could not wait to get on the air when I was at CN. I could not wait to get on the air. And the same thing here, when sometimes I can't wait to do my monologue. And TDJs would say I got up out the bed to preach I put on my clothes to preach He said, and then I got in my car, almost drove my car into the pulpit to preach. and the Lord put something on my mind and ain't nobody going to stop me from something to that nature. And that's how I feel every single time that I'm delivering a monologue or that I'm getting ready no matter how tired I am. So that is what I used as inspiration to continue on my journey as a journalist and to bring people the news. I know that sounds weird to people who are watching. They probably don't even know that side of me, but that's where I am I absolutely love it. I love it. And we're yeah, you're doing your part. I'm doing my part. Let me read you something before we close. I wrote this recently, but this is I've been asked this a lot because I think a part of a a larger question right now in my line of work is many people keep asking Pastor Why aren't more pastors speaking up? Why aren't more churches speaking up? Why are they silent? And Don, one of the things that's really interesting to me right now is watching people show up at our church that are leaving other churches and or spiritual collectives because They keep saying, and these are like mega churches around Alanta. They're leaving and they're saying continue to support because the Pulpit, the stage. pastor is absolutely silent, just will not address anything. And so I wrote this, and I think it'd be a good conclusion for everything we're saying right now because there is a difference, Don between separation of church and state institutionally speaking. and faith in politics And the thing that I've learned is cannot to love their neighbor without talking about politics And I would also remind people Politics is a good word Now I know. I mean, think about it, Don, it's been so beaten down and our culture. In its essence, it is our shared common Good together That's what it is. And so I wrote this and this one goes out to every person that is a part of a church or wondering why their pastors don't speak up, wondering why religious leaders aren't speaking up, wondering why more people just aren't speaking up U And here it is Every church is political Every church either challenges or reinforces the way power is organized in the world and not speaking about politics. Speaking about politics Be silence is not neutral Silence protects the status quo. tells community That's centering the comfort of the powerful is more important than the safety of the vulnerable. Can't talk about loving your neighbor without talking about politics. Who gets healthcare protected Who belongs? Wh gets left behind? Isn't it interesting Some people want God in their politics They just don't want politics in their Godd TheQion is not whether a church is political It is The question is who benefits from the politics it refuses to name Now the issue is often cost Speaking honestly about what's going on in our world today can cost members, money and the institution itself too challenge the system would be to challenge a system that is working for them That's why silence is never neutral It always serves someone I know something about that personally But there are things more expensive than losing money, like losing your soul The question is not whether the truth will cost you, it probably will The questestion is what your silence is costing the most marginalized people inside your church. Most people aren't looking for a church to tell them who to vote for They're looking for a church willing to call out the wrong being done in Christ's name immmigration, racism and poverty are not experienced as mere politics They're experienced as real life So when churches say, we don't talk about politics here, what many people inside that church here is, we don't talk about your pain here Churches are already political The real question is what kind of world they are helping create. Now imagine a church more committed to protecting the people and protecting the institution itself And so I'll close here. pererhaps we need to be reminded. Jesus was crucified because he confronted powers of H his day not because he avoided them. D, you keep doing your thing. I'll keep doing my thing and we're gonna we're gonna keep spepeaking truth, speaking up and following the way of Jesus and elevating the voices that this nation is hell bent on keeping s. I refuse to let that happen I agree. And I think but we got you had Isaiah today. I had second kings or as we say in that Shorthand, two kings or, what did Trump say? Tw Corinthians? Two Corinthians. That's right. That's right. Oh my God. E my evangelical parents were like, Oh, that guy has never read the Bible Yeah. No, but when I read it, I'll say two kings, but in the vernacular, I'll say second kings, but u Yeah and Thank you for this. This is this is I did not expect to have this moment then we're going run and people are going to go what is wrong with those guys? No, no, no. Yeahah. let them think what they want. But I mean, I think I think that's what's happening right now. and a lot of us are all meeting each other and Dude it's bring a of hope and maybe that's the case for. becauseuse I know you' your limination I mean I read some of those comments. I mean, you've got your' force, man. L you've built something really beautiful and it's more than just like a like a media outlet It's a for community. It is ye. It's a force. and it's making shifts and changes in the world. And so every time I get a message from them, P peopleople show up our church all the time, like I heard you Jo Don Ln and just brings a big smile to my face. I'm like right on. Anyways. But I'm told You're going to be with us I think August? Are you coming? S sometometimes in August. Yeah, I'm trying to work out the date. I have a date that's on the calendar, but I need to make it work. I promise you, I will be there. I just want to make sure that the date works. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. love. Thank you, sir. All righton. Cody, pastor Cody Dece. Binings Lake That it church In Mapleton. N nailed it. Yes. Mayton. That's right fifteen minutes norest of downtown Atlanta. All right, my friend. It's good to see you guys and all the love to elimination people Thanks for watching everybody. I appreciate you Make sure you like, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you don't miss anything We're live weekdays at ten AM and five PM Eastern with new content at two PM Eastern, sometimes at eight PM Follow the Don Lemon Show wherever you are. YouTube, TikTok, Instram, Facebook, Titch, Substack, Spotify, iHard radio, Apple podcasts. We are everywhere and we're there every day. And if you want a little more, join the Limon community, exclusive posts, behind the scenes, live chats Just hit join or check the channel pages. All right I'll see you next time