Lessons Learned and Future Rivalries

Well, Tim, time flies when you're enjoying yourself. It's ten years since the twenty sixteen race here with so many stories to talk about Ted. I mean, we think of it as the dawn of Max Verstappen, don't we? We think of it coming straight into Red Bull racing, replacing Danielkiat and then winning his first grand. And ten years later, he's four world championships down But then we've got through a Verstappen era, we're about to go into an Antonelli era ten years later. It's amazing how quickly Formula One changes You talk of Antinelli, the Mercedes driver, What a weekend it was Carun for the Mercedes team. It was the peak of their dominance in that hero, wasn't it? We'd seen fourteen and fifteen, Lewis was always slightly ahead of Nico Nico sniffed a chance in sixteen and he In fairness, I think raised this game over the winter And that opening lab was just incredible. I remember sitting in the paddock here And I was working a different broadcasts at the time and we just the whole paddo, there was a gasp when they hit each other coming out of turn three. What do you remember Harry about those day that day? Well, I probably got a slightly different perspective because I was at home on the sofa. and was having I was nineteen years old, so I was only actually only a few months older than Max when he got that first win. So a bit of a bizarre scenario to be having a year out before going to university, but I I remember the season vividly and the run up to the Spanish Grand Prix and China, the few races before that, you had Dani Kiviat getting on the podium and getting his elbows out in the red Bull, the new kid having been promoted and was doing well then suddenly you had the turmoil that we got. In Sootci at his home race another puce into the back of Sebastian Vettel, and that was really the instigator that created what we saw on that Sunday at the Spanish Grand Prix with Max Verstappen in a red Bull. Was that the torpedo? It was. And Seb said you came in there like a torpedo. That was where the torpedo was born. I loved it. And the memes then came out of it as well. But you know, you had a ettle in that Ferrari which wasn't quite going the way he wanted, but it was size begin. I mean, if the Mercedes hadn't taken each other out, Match just happened would not have won that race. but Site has a funny way of doing things like that Of course, they two stopped as well, didn't they for Max and for Kimmy, which really disadvantagageed Daniel Ricciardo My standout memory I' two from that weekend was after the race I went into the Red Bull Motor homeome to get a bottle of water. and at the time The Red Bull drivers went one way and the Torosso drivers went the other The driver ros so the opposite ends. And as I happened to been there. Daniel Ricardo walked in and also Daniel Kfiad after the race and they both look sort of Shell shocked. And they looked at each other and they made eye contact And just through this sort of headshake and disppear in the rooment They both knew that was the day Max Verstappen had leapfrogged both of them. and become the top dog. Max was still out of the press conference and celebrating while they were sort of disappearing into their rooms. I don't remember whether people felt sorry for Kavveiat though Because, you listened, did you at home on the over How harsh can you get? mean you've been dropped from your seat. And then the guy that's replaced you goes on to win. It's talk about salt in the wound. But then you spoke to Christian Horner and he pretty much blamed Helmet Markco, didn't he? When he said, o well, you know, Helmet Markco, who makes all of these decisions, and he referred to me and I kind of gave him an opinion Christian was quite clear about this anyone who's not happy about it, it's Helmut Markco's decision, not mine. But there were twenty drivers on the grid. And I say to young drivers now look You get an opportunity because somebody else has been kicked out. Let's just remember that when you get kicked out at some point whenever that may be. It's just the nature of our business and you have to be ready for it. It is. I think, you know it's a brutal sport we know, you know, and I think For me It was about that car Dium. He had that opportunity. The strategy worked out, the Mercedes crash, all that happened Here was an eighteen year old kid first raceed in the big team World Champion Kimy Reichkin on his gearbox twowo thirds of it just sitting there within a second or so And he didn't lock up, he didn't put a foot wrong He just sees the opportunity and You know, I straight off the race. I remember seeing you in the pit lane actually and you went off and you as you normally do see the team bosses And I caught Y Jos Verstappen walking down the pit and I grabbed him And I was the first one to get to him and stuck a microphone in his face And he actually had tears. and you don't think of Jos Verstappen, this hard Dutchman with tears, but he was lost he just said to me, I'm lost for words and he had tears in his eyes as we went to the podium. Something I didn't notice on the day, but we've seen a lot of is that question Max was asked in the press about, you know, how do you feel about And Kiviat sat alongside him, didn't he? And Max ped his lips And had that, I'd really like to punch you sort of look on his face, but I know I can't and then delivered a line. I didn't notice Today, he's exactly the same, isn't he? When he gets asked a difficult question? Yeah T to be fair to Max, it was a terrible question. What's it got to do with? What's it got to do with Max must happen? Does he feel sorry for Danny Cat? What am I going to say? Yes, I mean, I don't know, but no, I mean, I felt he held himself well together there. but yeah, it was incredible. And think about Mercedes the way They were then. You know, what is it with the two number ones in the team Why can't they understand that it's always going to be It' something that's going to create tension, but they always go to it. still do two number one, two equal drivers in aam. You can sort of equate it to what we're kind of seeing now if you look at the Mercedes angle, because you had Rossberg, you know just lost out on the title to Hamilton, but he found this run of form was on back to back consecutive race victories from the end of last year into this year. And Hamilton, you know he had to get round him. Hed lost out on po position. Nikaro managed to get r him and that, you know, that's like rule number one. donon't let that happen. You've got that advantage And so that's where I think they saw the aggression, the desperation to get past some early doors because otherwise he knew might not happen. And I just wonder, you can't directly compare the situation to what we see now with Russell and Aantinelli, but Russell is obviously on the back foot right now and he's going to have to get his elbows out when he can to make those moves count. and that could well lead to something like we saw ten years ago Whose fault was it? S racing drivers. comeome on, we can't answer that. We should be asking you My view, the throttle works both ways, so Lewis had a chance to get out of it Co's move and defensive move was too late because Lewis was up alongside him. Nick Nickki Laudder defended Nico on it, didn't he? But I think it was a day late and a dollar short that defense I agree. I think Especially if you're up against your team is lap one, no other team is really in contention you don't need to be that aggressive on the move on both fronts. You know, Lewis, as you say should have see that Niico was not prepared to yield into turn four. He saw the light harvesting energy. knew he was slowing down. Um But Nico equally could have given him, you know a couple of feet. So I actually put it down as a fifty fifty. To me, though, you look at the bigger picture of it and there is a wider padallelo, right? Because Nico had been in that team in the hard years when they weren't winning alongside Michael 've been like George Russell in the years alongside another seven time worldorld Champion on You know, Louis how the Dime wasn't. And then Lewis arrived at Mercedes and won the first two championships when the car was there And are we seeing the same? You know, when the car is there this year for the first time Is George going to be the one who loses out? Yeah. All right, An one for you racing drivers. Is it possible when you're on the grass and having an accident, as Lewis Hamilton was, to think I can make something of this accident and make sure we're both involved? Or was Nico always going to be involved? orr was Nico was there a way that Nico could get out of it and not be involved by the spinning Hamilton If you think you're going out, if you think you're going in the fence, you will take try and take the other driver with you if you feel if you feel damned and that you' pretty hard wired in that situation Bouncing along the grass on full tanks of fuel I'm not sure he had a whole load of control over that car. And Nico wouldn't have been able to say, Well, I don't know what he's doing. I'm going to drive from I don't think he would have seen it. I think he, you know, you obviously did the chob And I think at that point, he had probably decided to commit to the inside line In hindsight, that would have been the right thing to do is oh, he's on the glass. Get out of the way and hope he doesn't sort of teaboard me at the apegs. but I think they would have both ended up in the gravel You know, at that point. But Nico told us on our show when he was working with us, quite recently that he ended up they both had to pay for the damage. Is that a true story? fifty fifty split, was it But we'll ask him. Yeah, let's ask him because and how do you value, you know the side of a Mercedes forulon car? You know, it's not like crashing your road car, there's like a parts list and a retail price list. But anyway, he gave us the impression that he paid hundreds of thousands of pounds. They both did to repair the cars. So I remember it really well. and I remember having had there was the initial shock And then I was near abouts I wasn't right next to the Mercedes garage in the pit lane, but I was nearabouts. And I could have just picture. I said I thought to myself, there's going to be somebody storming out the back of the garage in a huff. and I want to be at the back of the garage to find whoever it is who's running out the back of the garage in a huff and ready to talk to my microphone. It was Nkki Laouder And he didn't let me down. And he came out. he was absolutely fuming. And I was the first one there. He came out Nicky, straight reaction, easiest question canan't believe it. They've come they've taken both Mercedes out And he was absolutely furious. And the reason why he said, looking back on it and looking back on the pictures that he said they've taken both Mercedes out. was the appearance in the garage of the man with the white bushy moustache, Dr. Dita Zetcher, the head of Mercedes corporate, the head of Mercedes Ben's group at the race where he's at His mustoustache must have been twitching with fury because they've taken both Mercedes out. What a race to do it. If you have two bulls in one field, you're going to have this. two number one drivers. as you said, it's inevitable. But wasn't it fun for us to watch? I remember you know when they hit each other in Austria, they hit each other in Spa. It's great entertainment. You don't want to lose that either I mean, look at what George and Kimmy were doing in Canada, it was great. it was great to watch and you don't want The the fear of what could happen like we saw ten years ago to start impacting how teams go racing. But when you look at the race from ten years ago, it was a really seismic weekend in driver dynamics within teams, obbviously the two Mercedes, but was it also the beginning you know on the other side with Red Bull of Max Verstappen and that relationship with GP and the turning of the tide at Red Bull to be to begin following the Verstappen trend in the way forward there. What about Toto's reaction? If Nikki Laudder was furious, Toto had spent the rest of the race kind of getting to terms with it and much more measured at the end of that. D that surprise you No, I think he had to carm it all and the bosses were there and you know, you're representing well over a thousand people at the factory, making the cars, plus the power unit, plus the sponsors. I think he was just trying to smooth it all out of it to stop the story being any bigger than it was inevitably going to be Yeah, one hundred percent, you know, the he's got two fairly stubborn hots shots who didn't want to give up any inch of of an advantage to the other one and They All of those people that they represented, they let them down. And Toto had to put a bright face on it. Tot had known that Nico was going to retire at the end of the year champions. would have if he could have his chance again to speak after that.. I remember also in the pit lane, the strategy was a bit of a mind bender because this has always been a two stop race You know, apart from when the tyres do something really weird or there's a car or something, Barcelona is a nailed on two stopper. Even when they do race simulations in testing, it's always a two stopper. And so for some people to do three stops instead of two, it seemed a bit weird And then I mean, it was the real kick of Ricardo in the end was that didn't have a puncture right at the end of the race as well. So not even on the podium. Not even on the podium to be there and show that he could have won that race as well. Yeah. when Sebastian Vettel left Red Bull go to Ferrari. Ricardo assumed this number one position And it was going to be the Ricardo era of Redbull, isn't it? The Vt era become the Ricardo era and this track ten years ago, that ended. That day when Max stood on the podium while Daniel, as I said disappeared into that room in the motor home. That dream ended at that point. And Daniel started heading off to Pastne didn't and it didn't work out for him. It sort ruined his career, really, didnn't it? informorm Normn teammate destroyer from day Dot really and actually forget because I still would have loved at one point in that race. I think Carlos Syes was up in third in a Tororosso, having been going head to head with Max Ver Staffen in that seat. Verstappen was the one that got the nod. but that was one of the closest teamm margins. I know it's hard to judge because it was their rookie season, etcetera. But you had you had three reed Bulls at one point running in the top three and one of them was the junior team Another thing that strikes me looking at the footage for this feature. How many people are no longer involved in F.? We've lost Nikki Laudder, bless him Helmet Markco, Christian Horner Nica Rosberg not driving anymore. I mean, Sebastian Vetel, Danel Ricardo, And on and on and on. L little bit worrying isn't it We'll be watching the twenty W version of this. Maybe it's a surprise that it took Max so long to start winning his championships because we knew from this day ten years ago, he was ready to win. So ten years later, have Mercedes Benz learned any lessons I think they have. I think if you look at what they did after having Nico and Lewis, you know, Valteri came in as a clear number two They sort of broke that tension in that team garage Obviously now they have two equal number ones, but In Canada, we saw at some point, they went right, enough's enough. You've had your play. Let's just calm it all down. So I think they have learned their lessons. Well, I hope they haven't. What do you think, T? I'm not so sure they have, because all right, Canada's the only example we've had, but it only last until whatever it was Lap thirty seven, then George Russell had an engine failure. And who knows what might have happened after that To number ones and we've got to say Kimmy Aonelli is now a number one, maybe the number one having oneon five on the bounce against George Russell so long in the team. I think there's plenty of scope notot only here this weekend, but potentially in Austria or even maybe at Silverstone in a few weeks time for those two to get together. All depends on Russell finding some speed But I think we could have a Hamilton and Rossberg and a Russell and Antonelli ten years later, they're going to come to blows at some point this season. Yeah, I agree. I think while Mercedes is a team may well have learned, at the end of the day, the driver is the one in control of the actual car. and George Russell, the sort of the state of mind he might be in where he knows he's very much on the back foot That's when you start to see these types of things happen. And good. brring it on. I want to see it I want to see George. come on, George, let's see if it takes a little bit of a of a trick of a little bit of sportsmanship, gamesmanship. he's got to do something to put Kimmy Aonelli off his run. Maybe a bit of nerf into the gra into the gravel its own. Yeah N teater blades on these elbs. Yeah, this is how we do it. Let's see what happens Let's see what happens How does a banana trigger a CIA backed coup? Do airPods herald the arrival of a new global order? What do LED lights say about the future of humanity? I'm Ed Conway and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow