Book Recommendations and Closing Thoughts

Hello podcast listener Welcome to the Flophouse podcast Usually on a flop house podcast, we watch a bad movie or as Dan likes to say, a movie that has been a critical or financial failure because he feels bad for the movies, and we talk about it. But this is a miniature episode, what we call a Fop house mini, where instead we will be doing something different, still movie related, but something a little different. My name is of course Elliot Kaalan Todam drive. am I? Yeah Oh, sorry. I using my usual cue. I'm Jan McCoy, loving this gentle energy you're bringing. Yes. And I' joined by. I am Stuart Millant. But today we also have another guest. We did it perfectly. Yes. We did it flawlessly. You can really tell we've been doing this for almost twenty years Today, we're also joined by another guest or in this case, perhaps a guest host, you might say, in a way, because he's going to help lead us through a conversation about an interesting topic. His name, of course is Alonzo Doralda. You probably know him as the chief film critic for the film verdict. Perhaps you know him as co host of the podcast, Maximum Film, and also Lenolium Kife, Lenolium Knife being one of my favorite podcasts He's author of the book Have Yourself a movie Little Christas and also Hollywood Pride, among others And he's here to talk to us today, Alonso, are there any credits that I've not mentioned that you'd like me to mention in this video? Well Well, Elliot, I also co host a show called Breakfast All D dayay with Pry Lir on YouTube. and I'm a regular contributor to the Deck the Hallmark podcast. And I had no idea we were doing ASMR today, but I'm here for all the bedtime calm vibes. That's right. That's what this minia is all about is bedtime calm vibes. Bedtime calm vibes, and then Stewart hwking blowing his nose. I'm sure I'm sure Alex will that. Lave that in, Alex, leaave in Stuart human frailty with this. Now it I don't want people to think that I'm some kind of inhuman, godlike being who cannot get I am recovering from strep throat currently and it fs sucks. Yeah. ye. Yeah I forgot does not be when I started making fun of you Now have there's a specific topic that Alonso was going to talk about today, but before we started recording, Alonso broke the news to us that he he attended one of the screenings of after last season whatever that mo is called that we did recently. And so I do want do tell our listeners a little bit about what the experience was like. Yeah. Yeah. So everything your guest said about the trailer being on Apple trailers and everybody thinking that it was viral marketing for where the Wild thingsings are Absolutely true. I remember when that happened And I just remember seeing that trail thinking,, okay. And I have a couple of people that are friends of mine who see just about everything that opens, and every so often they will sound the alarm. For a movie like say, I don't know if y'all have seen Standing Ovation. No, I don't know. The teen musical or Dangerous Men or you know, they were early on the birdemic in the room. Like when they tell you, drop everything and go see this movie, you listen And so after last season opened in four markets for one week only. One of those markets is Lancaster, California, which is a good hour from where I live is way up like you're heading towards like Bakersfield, I guess But I know I had been told, you have to go see after last season. So I went with two friends And we've never forgotten it. And I actually own a DVD that was a brief moment where the mysterious Mark Reion was selling them on his website. and one of the friends who went with me to that screening got it for me. so I still have it in my collection. It is a sur prize possession. So what I saw, y'all were doing an after last season episode like by had explained Yeah I feel like we were so we're so late to the train on that one. So you know, that there's this whole whenever I hear about one of those and I'm like, I'm like, o, how did I how did I not know about this? But then I feel revival, I think. You know I think enough time has elapsse. We've always maybe the people who knew forgot. and so now you're there to sort of Beat the drum again to let people knowice. All right. This is better. Yeah, and it's in the public domain by now, right? probablyroably. Yeah. Heaven only knows with the crackpot history of this movie and how much it did or didn't cost, you know? How has a feel that feel like a lot of these like really like legendary bad movies are the stuff that we would cover. uh during small bber and u Thus like You know, it's like once a year, we would get around to it. Unfortunately, our bread and butter has become Mediocre Hollywood I mean those are funing but yeah, there's something about these movies where it's not even just that the movie is so bizarre, but the making of it is is so shadowy. You know, where did they get their money? And who, you know, how was this actually edited and put into theaters? you know, like when because when you get to something like the room or, you know, Ben and Arthur, you're just like the origin story is as weird as the film itself, you know But it's also fun and the answer everyone always goes to is like, oh, it must been money laundering operation. It's like there's easier ways to launder money car wasash. Yeah. But Alonso, originally that works out usually, that works out. If brereaking bad is any indication, yes. Awash is the way to go. Yeah. Alonso, you weren't here originally to talk about after last season, although when you texted me this morning, a picture of your ticket stub seeing it I was like, I gotta hear more, yeah. But you were here because it This because it is June and June is Pride Mth. Be because it's June, June, June, June, June, June, June. And so Alleonso, you wanted to have us talk about a little bit about kind of like U the question was, I believe, like when was the first time that we remember seeing kind of like er representation on film That was the question that you had asked us originally. Yeah. this is a conversation I've had with a lot of queer people because I think, you know, we were always sort of on the lookout for it and it's sort of, you know It felt like a signal from the world like, oh, wow, maybe there's this, you, there's a community out there for me or maybe, you know there's I'm not alone in the world. Although for people like my age, it was more often than not, o my God, I'm not that, you know. And so as people who are equally versed in your solarises and your bikinis car wash I thought it would be really interesting to hear what y'all's take on when did you start sort of realizing these characters existed you know in the world and in movies? Did it color your judgment of what a queer person was based on, oh, are they all like that or or or do you immediately no, wait. that's Gross, you know, I mean, it depends. I'll tell you mine. The first time I really remember like perceiving a queer character movie And I'm sure as a kid, I had seen like, you know, old screwball comedies with you, Franklin Payangbourne or whatever. And I knew the sort of the sissy and theary blower in the Fred Astairire movies in and you Exactly. Yeahah, exactly. The sort of uptight and you know, fussy and whatever Once I hit Puberty and I was looking at movies in a different way, do you guys know the nineteen eighty one U sort of Broadway sort of slasher movie The Fan. No I don't know. I'm aware that it exists. Okay, so it was based on a novel that was apparently quite successful and it was an epistolary novel. Like The whole thing is letters and faxes and whatever else But the premise here is basically that Lauren McCall is a big Broadway star. I buy it, I believe it Yes. Well weirdly she was at that point. like she actually did win a tony or two, which is bizarre because Lady cannot sing and you see that in the fan where she has a couple of big numbers that are really embarassing. more Alonso, Alonso, may maybe this is me being feeling stereotypical about G. There's more to Broadway than just musicals. There's straight drama, you know. s but she did musicals. Well okay. I'm not judging her based on the things she wasn't doing actually was in like Woman of the Year and stuff.. It wasn't like a revival of death of a salesman or. Exactly yeah. ye. there're not enough tunes in Long Day's Journey theonight. So there should be a musical version of Long Day's Journey tonight. That would be great U boozies. Anyway. so yeah, so she's a big broader musical star and she has a stalker played by a pre terminator Michael Bean. And the whole time he's sending her these letters that are increasingly like obsessive and like sexual And the movie never comes out and says that he's gay, but I think we're sort of meant to pick up on that because he is stalking a woman of Broadway. Nonetheless, there is a part where the police are closing in on him and he has to fake his own death. So he goes to a gay bar, picks up a guy who is his general like size and you know, body type They go to a rooftop Pickup initiates offs screen, oral sex on Michael Bean. Michael Bean reaches for a straight razor encased in a pink plastic sheath, by the way. sllits the guy's throat, sets him on fire, leaves a suicide note to sort of make the police think that he has killedself and I guess immolated was once he cut his own throat, he then lit himself on fire, I guess. Yeah. I guess he mentions Savannah Rola once or twice in the suicide note, perhaps Anyway, so that was the first time I'd ever seen two men ha sex in a movie And they didn't finish because one of them got sl his throat slit by the other one and I was like, okay I'm not where, you know, that that that movie alone, I think kept me in the closet for an extra three years probably.. So that stuck with me. and so that's that's like a biggie. And the eighties were rife with these kind of really terrible, you know, like The De Mooore's next door neighbor in S almosts fire with the with the strawberry perched on the lip of his margarita, you know, or I mean, countless other movies. and also I think the eighties was was prime time for like the hero gets to say Fagot and no one cares, you know, and it's funny. So, you know, this is I'm older than you guys, but these are the movies of your youth. These are the films that made you. So yeah, I would love to hear like your recollections of like, oh yeah, there was this guy and that lady and you know maybe they were good, maybe they were terrible, but you know, tell me. The first one that comes to mind for me is which police accademy was it where they go to a bar? All of them. Yeah. They always wind up at the bllue oyster, which is somehow a bar where leather dudes dance the tango. It's That's what happens at a leather bar. I think that's always leather night ye. There was such a when we were when we were kids, there was when you would I think that was probably something like that is probably the first one for me also. It's something where like comedy or an action comedy, and there's a character in it who is either very swishy or is a leather guy or both. And there was this I feel like growing up there was this understanding Gay men are all incredibly effeminine, but they're also into leather and, you know tough daddy stuff. And the idea that not all gay people are into leather and not all leather people are gay was such a like just didn't it just conflated into into like a general other. And I think I'm trying to think what the specific one was, but I feel like there's They were so many what's the in the is it is it Frcon Pitchot in the Beverly Hills Cop movie who's like Sge the Sge the kind of minsing. But yeah, I'll tell you, he actually, I think is more in the tradition of the old screwball characters in that he is self contained and you meet him on his terms. He iss not going to meet you on yours. That's true. I think they like that's maybe one of the first ones I remember seeing where like where it's like, o, this guy is being Clearly there's like a there's not there's a lack of a the very least kind of macho quality, which I had started like or like a traditional I don't know, like the hero of the movie masculinity, likeike Is Yeah, not but yeah, butch. But then but I feel like also when I was growing up because I'm a little bit you know, Nilono, it was during like what I really remember is kind of like the late dis early nineties when suddenly Um suddenly like the idea of queerness or hosexuality was now a big topic of conversation nationally in a way that that I think it had been more of an undercurrent before. and so like The It felt like I remember growing up, I was like, it felt like so Did we just discover gay people? Like Is this thing that is this like a new thing that happened? And you go back and watch old movies and you're like, oh no, it you know, this is something that has always been around and aware of. The same way that like you watch thirties movies and you're like, wait a minute, they had sex back then. And people making the movie like knew that sex existed. know? Well, think I mean the late eightyies, early nineties is where like AIS was happening. I think. Yeah, we were topic of conversation as a problem You know, as as either objects of pity or like hide your children they are coming to, you know, give you their koties. But I remember that started to edge into like like the the like, you know what It's okay. You know what? L like the the very special episode of the sitcom where exactly to show you that like guys, you know, they're just like you and me. But it was but I feel like it was like the Like we showed them The first Bill and Ted movie to my older son and they really enjoyed it, But the part where there's just like that one moment where they're where they're using that word with each other. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I don't like this.. Well and to their credit, both Alex Win and Kanter were like, you know what? we were young and dumb. and like the apology tour is always fascinating. Like they did one the Beastie boys. I think we', you know kind of like looking back at their early stuff. So, you know, I'm for And, yeah Edd Murphy, because I say, because Beverly Hills Cop does give you Eddie Mury doing his little mincy limprist thing and talking about having, you know, Herpes simimplex ten or whatever. and it's like I feel like that was the erra when it was like Eddieur and like we're see Robin Williams doing like his his kind of mincing voice, his kind of like like pre bird cage when it's not, this is a character I'm playing, but this is just like the voice I'm doing in a routine. and everyone and the joke is, can this is hilarious that I'm doing this voice or something like that. Yeah, I mean ar all of the Robin William stuff. I mean I think he had at least sort of a San Francisco background and I think kind of was mining that more for the comedy of the outrageousness than the like, look at this silly homo, you know? Yeah, I guess that's probably true. But I think in some ways, but looking back on it, I didn't realize at the time, but I think the first character the first qu character I've seene might have been now that I assume that Styles, the character from Teenwolf, the best friend, I believe is is a is a is is a closeted character. he and he has a moment where he where he says that But he says he's not as a joke, but I'm like, there's no way. There's no way this character's not in love with Michael J. Fox. Yeah. Yeah. The people who say it' loudder sometimes, you know, especially when you're a teenager. I remember that So when I was a kid, I, you know, I just I really loved I loved the movie Zoro the Gay Blade. because because the thing was like I just loved Zoro. I love the character of Zoro And Zor the Gay Blade is this movie I don't know all how I would react to now. I haven't seen it since then, but like He had a twin brother who was forced to take over the mantle of Zoro, his twin brother Bunny Buddy Wigglesworth. Yeah, who was very feminate. But like as a kid watching this movie Loving Zoro and not knowing anything about gay people. I'm just like Oh, this is his funny. twin. Like there's like none of it like registered to be as like, I think a gay stereotype evenven though it's in the title. I'm just like, oh, this is a fun adventure movie with this big Nsy guy. No, but here's the thing. like for me and you know, As twenty gay people, you'll get different answers on this. I love Zora of the Gay Blade. And what I think is great is that he is never the butt of the joke, at least in terms of, you know, yes, we're meant to laugh at his wild, outrageous sense of fashion, the fact that he like turns these Zoro outfits into these like fringe, you know kind of like crazy things He is as effective with the bullwip as Zoro is with the sword and he wins. He wins the day. He is always defeating and shaming the bad guys in the way that Zoro would. And so weirdly it's this kind of like, yeah, we're meant to laugh at how can't be outrageous over the top you are, but you are also a Zoro level superhero, you know Yeah No, I think you're reminding me like I ask to think that like I loved Indian Jones so much that I just like I thought whips were cool. So I'm like gu has a whip. It was a brief period when whips were like the weapon, the cool weapon of choice, even though they're maybe the hardest thing in the world to use. like Yeah talk about you'll put an eye out. Yeah ye. But I can't believe we haven't talked about C three POo by the way The original gamer. Thank you. Well he was a real role model for me they did something recently where they, um, so in the Mad magazine parody of Star Wars that first came out, they had a joke from Rudit two where he says, Ohh, great, I'm stuck here with an F worord robot. and talk about this. And they changed it for a recent more recent reprint. They changed it too. I'm stuck here with a gay robot. and it's like, well it's still the same joke. It. it's still the same you have a changed the jo. I mean, but yeah, but it's not wrong. I mean, is totally a gay root. He's one of those characters who I've always loved C three PO. And I think that was one where like not until I was older or was I like, oh, I see this this kind of this kind of stereotype that that he could be I was always just like, ye, I love that he's always complaining. I love that he's very specific about what he wants or doesn't want fussy Yeah. ye yeah. he is totally he's the Franklin Pangbourne of the Star Wars Universe.. I love Franklin Pangborn. The you know in the nineties there was a web zene called Blair, named, of course, for the character from the Facts of Life. and they had an article called Lamar Latrell is the Total God of You And it was a celebration of the Lamar Larell character from Revenge of the Nerds Whom you may recall like, you know, when they' when they have they have the field day with the other Fats, like they they they the phys the physicists and the nerds design a javelin that can be thrown with his limp wristed style that makes it go further. But again, Lamar Latrell is fully himself and he is one of the nerds. so he is one of our heroes. He is one of the put upon characters. The other nerds accept him. So any blowback that he receives from straight people, you know, in every sense of that word in this movie just makes him part of our underdog heroes. So as as much as there are elements of that character you could point to as being kind of silly and stereotypical, you know, he again, gets to win. Yeah Yeah. So' that is that how when you're looking at would you say that's that's the way to look at kind of like judging the For lack of a better word, like offensiess or inoffensiveness of the characters iss also kind of like how does how does the character treated within the narrative in terms of like are we on their side and not just judging it based on are they are they enacting stereotypes that are, you know, that we recognize are can be used in offensive ways? Yeah, I think so, because I mean, I think the narrative has a voice about what we're meant to think about these characters and how we're meant to understand whether they are good or bad or you know heroic or villainous or whatever it is, there's a terrible movie from the late sixties called The Gay Deceivers. and it's about these two dudes pretend to be a gay couple so that they can avoid getting drafted and sent to Vietnam It's likeice comppany the movie. Yeah. Kind of, yeah. And so to maintain the illusion of it, they move in together in this apartment complex in West Hollywood that is run by a guy named Malcolm De John. and the actor playing him is the great Michael Greer. You might know him from Messiah of Evil or Fortune in Men's Eyes. And he basically rewrote the character turns him what could have very easily just been a sort of swishy stereotype joke into this like fabulous presence who is nobody's fool and is large and in charge. And he makes that movie worth watching because he is so in charge of the situation and such a fun character and such a character who is in control of his domain That yeah, even though the movie itself is patently offensive on numerous occasions, and all the stuff with the straight lead characters is just like, they say some shit you wouldn't believe, you know, But you just you're waiting for Malcolm D John to come back on screen and just be fabulous and put the whole thing in his pocket I will say that even even when it's u a positive description in like, this is a hero way. sometometimes the stuff that we grew up with, I remember like Part of me is like Oh it's really to my parent and my brother's credit bringing me up that even as like a straight male living in Cornfields in the Midwest. I was able to look at mannequin and be like This Hollywood character is a bit much. It's insulting, I think to I think it it's playing into some stereotypes here. Yeah, I mean again, I think a lot of it has to do with who's telling this story. you know, like did a queer person write it or direct it? Is there a queer actor playing the role? Is the character you know, allowed to have a love life or a sex life, you know, or they just there to be the shoulder to cry on or the helper, the magical homo, if you will, of the straight, you know protagonist. Like I always talk about how, you know, you know, Hallmark movies have the black friend on phone Which is, you know, the woman the friend that the white heroine will talk to throughout the movie to tell her what's going on with her relationship and the supportive black friends does a lot of nodding on the phone and And it's kind of like kind of like so many horror movies have the person of color who has a closer connection to the supernatural and can tell the white hero what's going on with the thing that's haunting them or cursing them. Yeah. that ghost Is it the horror of Party Beach that has the maid who keeps saying, It's the voodoo I tells you. Yes. the funniest but she's also the smartest character in that movie because there's the part where he goes, she's looking for sodium to destroy these monsters. And he goes, I called a couple places and I can't find it. And she goes, you call every place. She yells at him. Call all of them H I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, so you have like I think there are a lot of times where the gay character is there to like give the heroine a makeover, you know, or whatever to just sort of be in service of but not have any actual inner life of their own. So I mean, yeah, I think at least with Hollywood in the first or second movie, I think he's got boyfriendight? It's been so long since I've seen either of them. I don't remember. But you watch Vnequin all the time a lot time. I know, it's one of my many failings. What do you do during mannequin's giving? What do you But that reminds. So I think one of the earlier ones where I think I might have been for fully aware is The char is it's like that is the is the Harvey Fierson character in Mres Doubtfire Well yeah it's like where it's like he is there to give Robin Williams a makeover into to be a woman. But also like he does have a husband or at least a partner, you know, a long term partner who's living with him. Like you do get a sense that he has a life outside of appearing in the scene. Yeah, that couple is referred to as like uncle Jim and Aunt Jack or something, whatever the characters are. L like it is very clearly stated they're a couple kids movie in the nineties, that' a huge leap forward, you know, like the fact that these two people, they're not just roommates or' not just pals, they are referred to as aunt and uncle. even that that's a joke, that at least is a joke that says they're a couple. This is how you know them in our family. So yeah, that that in in a tiny way is actually a big step forward. It's such a weird it's such a weird thing where there there's a becausecause Sexuality as with race is such a messy thing in terms of like people's understanding or acceptance of things that are different from them. There's so many movies like that where it's like, this is a little bit more progressive than you would think, but it's also kind of reggressive in this other way. Like those characters do are also like makeup and mask experts who are there to like put give him put him through a makeup Mage Montage basically And you see that it's like it's a's it's hard to find that of like, oh well, this is a good version of it. this is a bad version of it. because you're also living within the stereotypical assumptions of the world that the movie is existing in and reflecting and stuff like that. Um But you're right. it's a big thing in that movie that's, o yeah,' members are our family. We have no question about their relationship. Like we love them and and this is how they love and that's it, you know, it's just for t for granted And I think the fact that these guys are like working with latex and stuff, it's not just like, oh, I'm gonna to give you a smokey eye. Exact. You they're they're artists. They at it's not oh, yeah, my swwissy brother in law who works at a salon. You know, it's like, o these these are professional makeup artists. Yeah. If one of the looks they' hadd given Robin Williams was like, you know, the T one thousand with like one robot ey sticking out. I don't think you're gonna get this job as a. Now I wish that was that instead of like different types of women in that my p She was like would really up we do everything. It keeps terrifying because he tries to be I don't think we want to hire the Gillman as a nanny This is kind of up to great what a great movie that would be if it's like, it's not just that he's pretending to be a nanny but he's pretending to be a monster nanny. And it's like ye we want to hire a monster. It's called Monster Nanny So make right?. Yeah. M's too easy, toooo easy, yeah. This is kind of off to the side of like the current part of what we're talking about but I was thinking about like how Growing up in rural Illinois at a time when like You know, itdy J people around me would have been closeted mostostly. I It's just what it did to my ability to pick up on any sort of subtext in anything, which is to say like I didn't have it as a child imag But well I just remember watching you know, fried green tomatoes and being like I think these women are more than just friends You know, andre based on an expressly lesbian novel, but in the movie they took out, you know, any sort of Yeah. that's an infuriating adaptation. No really D you very mad. I the same. Let's to be in love. Yeah. Dan, you had the same experience when you watched Dert Hearts as a kid, right? Like swimming my Hold on There didn't put my finger in. And then when you were foundound, you were like, I think these women might be, hold on You're like female friendships are' just so much more comfortable with each other And again, I think, you know,' fighting. That's what with the early nineties that was that was there was such a terror of that stuff because yeah, the I mean, Fanny Flag is a lesbian. likeike, you know, she was, you know, involved with with Rita May Brown for years. And so and the book is pretty clear about that relationship. and I think you'd made that movie the originaledreen lesbians. Yeahah. Yeah exactly.es But have you made it caafe? horify. Do you do you think and do you think if they made it today, do you think they would just not Yeah I think they would they would be they would be very straightforward about it I do would I do remember this is, I mean, this is a little bit later and this speaks more to me confronting my own bullshit. but I remember I think it was somewhere in college when but I'm a C cheerleader came out. I feelt like that was not only was it very campy, but it was also like such an overt like a depiction of a l like lesbian coming coming of understanding and lesbian romance. And I feel like at the time, it was It felt very confrontational to me because I feel like it was very much a moment of C college Start who is already insecure being like, but wait, I'm not necessary anymore. And like it was to me in all. I had like I had to unpack at the time and obviously I have under come back. I've been led to believe I'm at the center of human civilization. What's going on? But I mean, that does come from the fact that, you know, similar to Dan I came from a fairly u Midwestern closeted universe I think I've told this story before, but I I just think he deserves his u His plaudits whenever I can give him to him. I remember very clearly when I was young My brother John saying to me, for some reason, like I don't know what context was was like you're going to grow up, you're going to fall in love with a woman or You might fall in love with a man. you might be gay, and that's okay too. and I'll love you no matter what I'm like, looking back on that to be given that so young, I'm so appreciative that he did that because I don't I feel like it really did mean that I'm like, o, yeah, sure. that's Fine. You know But now you know looking back, you should have said, it doesn't have to be a binary, you know? Yeah. No, no. He's woke He's cancellled. Yeah, exactly. He didn't address every possible situation You could find yourself in a polycule, you know? But, you know, to Stewart's point, yeah, there are movies that come along that really, you know shake it up and I think get, you know, Desert Heart certainly was one of those movies for me I remember going with my best friend in college, Kurt Holman to see both my beautiful launderette and prick up your ears. Both of which have these, you know, are like you know like like my beautiful launderette has that amazing scene where they're out in the street and Daniel Day Lewis secretly like licks the guy's neck You know, and and prick up your ears, you know, they're like ottaging, you know,'re like going to public men's rooms and picking up dudes and stuff. And both of those Uies I remember were sitting there being like Stone face, stone face, no reaction. do not Don't show the world Don't show the world with to me. Yeah. Dt do not gasp, nothing. just keep it on lockdown, you know? And obviously when Kurt was one of the first people I came out to and he was great about it, but I wasn't ready to go there yet. But these movies were showing me something that I hadn't seen before and this was not the fan, you know? This was like even though things don't work out well for Joe Wharton at the end of print up your ears, nonetheless, it's not directly tied to him having sex with people Um, yeah, so I think it it's great whenin You see that movie that isn't like a big Hollywood production that suddenly is like, you know, oh, wait a minute.'s this is also a thing. Although now, I mean, I guess for some people it could be a Hollywood production. You could see loveve Simon or something and it would, you know change your your perspective on what this stuff even means, you know? Well, it's, mean, it's it's the value of having it's the value of storytelling and many different people telling stories, right? is it's like I think it gets boiled down to to the idea of representation, but it's like a's like a very simple basic way to look at it, but the idea of like you could, it's not just the thrill of going and seeing something that You haven't seen before that means something to you partarticularly on screen, but seeing something that is outside of the realm of what you understood was possible in any way. like that's the magic of stories and movies and things like that You know, it's thebertine that everybody always likes to quote, that the machine the movies are a machine that creates empathy. you know? Yeah I have an issue with that quote. I have an issue with that quote, but still, you know, because I think I think movies can also be used to create enty know ot is of course. Yeah.' a machine that creates only empathy. Yeah. I think I think that's off, but I think that's often how the quote is used in the same way that we There's a The same way that can't create. You cant create. Well, the same way that people talk about like And this is totally off topic, so I apologize. when they're like, comedy is only funny when it punches up, well, that's not true. Like there is part of the problem with comedy is that it can be funny when it punches down. so you've got to be discerning audience, you know, But true. But anyway, anyway, But I but I do think that seeing characters that are, you know, not you in a movie, you know, that's where the empathy part comes in. And so yeah, I think for a lot of people, their awareness that A queer people exist and B queer people have a right to exist and, you know are not a direct threat to them and just want to live their own lives and you know fall in love in their own way. You know, I think for a lot of people, movies provide the way for them to get there. But to Elliie's point, I think also a lot of homophobia is probably engendered by people saw in movies in the like late sixties, seventies and beyond because, you know, we were invisible pretty much during the Haze coe. look movie you look at the movie version of Cat on a hot tin roof. Well you're What's guy's problem? Eact L his about his best friend died. That's pretty sad but I don't know why he's impotent now. and it's like, oh, it's because in love with. Oh, I understand O like, you know, crossfire, you know, which was a book about a gay bashing that becomes a movie about anti Semitism. Okay, sure.. They werere like, we could admit that Jews exist now. And then progress for American cinema. And like you're saying in those movies in the sixties and seventies where where being queer is synonymous with being psychotic, essentially in some way, you know, or sadistic in some way, you know, more pathetic, you know,'s also that was also an oion. Like there's like a at least for me, I feel like a lot of what I saw in movies was a certain seediness,, a certain danger And But at the same time there was like the femininity or like anything that others something so that it's like, stay away person. And they were talking about with queer men in particular because there's you would have similar not as often we'd seen in movies queer women who were the they're It's the same problem because they arere super butch. They're super masculine. You know, super tough, you know suuper butch or they're like scheming to try and take women away from men Super Bch also sounds like a great like sort of Zine comic. Superbch is like an underground comic. You'd be buying a head shop an underground bs book. Yeahah. Yeah, her four issue team up with hothead Pizon is But it it's a, u It's interesting I mean, it shows you how like a movie reflects the assumptions or or the stereotype of society, but then it also perpetuates them at the same time. You know, And it's a and like there's a lot of people who I certainly like There are I remember when We' seeing for the first time I saw bllacula And there's like's there's Glycula's coffin is discovered by these antique dealers who are very much, you know, like stereotypes of swwishy gay men of, you know in the seventies and it's one of these things where it's like Oh, so like these characters are like They don't, of course, they have no the Laplot does not need them to have much of an interior life. They're just there to like Black ye backack to life to. Yeah, to be big. But it's like the trying to parse when I saw it like, what is the reaction they intended the audience to have to these characters? Because were they supposed to be comic relief characters, or was it supposed to be some other aspect of like, oh, this is a horror movie so there's like these are these kind of other kind of deviant type people. It's like it was a very strange thing to me. was deserving of their fate. my. Yeah you're something like that. But the characters were it was a And I like it became like a real I had a lot of trouble enjoying the rest of Blacula, because I kept thinking about trying to otherwise problematic.w Owise it' imp movie, you know.uch a funny statement. Yeah. I mean, ' like you go back to silent cinema and you see examples of like the movie now, but there's some movies like that in the West or whatever. and one character Somebody sees like Charlie Chaplin kissing a woman in drag and thinks that Charlie has just kissed a man. And so this guy immediately starts like flouncing about in this very specific way. and it's like, oh, this was coded in the nineteen twenties. People already knew what these arm movements and little know hip swishes and whatever tiptoe walking meant know And so yeah, I think it's an easy laugh for audiences who assume, well nobody in this room is that. So let's all find that hilarious, you know, But yeah, I think Stuart's, there's also that the what what I think Andrew Serris once referred to as the Twilight Dmimond, you know, the sort of, you know, the seedy underbelly of the big city where, you know, the gays and the heroine addicts all gather, you know And and they're always looking for victims. Yeah, they're always they're always looking to corrupt somebody into the world into into a dangerous world of antiquing and listening to Judy Garland albums or whatever else wh whatever other stereotypical things they're doing because that's because it's the it's like it's that weird Yeah it's that weird flip thing of the stereotype is either Pitiful and weak or incredibly sinister and dangerous, but they exist in this together and because they and they exist as an opposition to what I guess is supposed to be like for men, especially like the proper role or proper whatever, you know. Well And again, it's that' we see this today in like the, you know ask a hard right conservative and they will tell you that Um Immigrants to this country are both lazy welfare mooches and they're taking all your jobs. Yeah. You know, So you sometim managed to do both those things at the same time because they're all bad. And it's the similar thing with antisemitism has always been that way, where Jews are both kind of subhuman vermin, but they're also so incredibly brilliant that they managed to control the entire world and take over everything. desving despite being like weak and having none of the strengths you know of the Gentile human beings. it really goes to show you that there's not really much rational f in bigotry, you know It's never made through it of. No. It's never based really at a really straightforward consistent philosophy There I It is hate you. partistent. I don't list consistently. I don't like it. Yeah. yeah Ready go. knock knock. Wh's there We got this. With Mark and Hal. you knew this one. I can't put that out as an ad. We just did new episodes every week on maximumfund dot orga or wherever you get your podcast. Now it's hume and rock. Han and rock Yeah How do you hue something in rock? With a chisel. There's only one hue in rock and it's Hueie Lewis And the news is, we got thoses of Mark and hows available every week on maximfundot org. I walked right into that. C on! Wonderful is a podcast where we talk about things we like. That's hard to sell in a promo like this, so we've enlisted the help of piano rock superstar Billy Joel to tell you about some of the topics we've covered. Take it away, real Billy Joel. City Rck's beenin on Lake sign Worstonsshire, Circle Time, Sega drrinkass sees a sad Ter of Annoy. Keep me up at time capapsules, Wayne's, World cheese Bulls, Wallace, Stven, Donky Gone, fununsize almmentjoy They didn't stop the podcast! Except that's not true. They didn twenty two. They didn't stop the podcast. 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Beautiful styling options, unrivaled visual design effects No experience required. so If this interests you, my friend Head to squarespace. com slash flop for a free trial And when you're ready to launch, use offer code to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or Domain So I feel like it was in the not to shift too much, but in the nineties, I feel like there was also a shift where we did see, you had mentioned before, that it felt like there was an increased representation of gay characters. On some level, it felt like these characters were often presented where they're Uh, like their chief struggle is against the repercussions of them being gay Like Yeah so by having sex with a person of the same gender They're going to die or something Yeah, I mean it's the nineties version of the traragic Milato You know, like the Their lot in life is to suffer and eventually pay for the sins of humanity, you know, ye. Yeah, the nineties there's a lot going on. because first you've got, on the one hand, you have like the new queer cinema, you know, like in ninety, poison and Paris is burning both win the jury prizes at Sundance you know. And sudenly you've got like Gregor Rocky and Gest Fansanth and Rose Trochet and you know, Cheryl Dunier and all these Filmmakers who are well John Waters around are mean all agrees. It's so funny. John Waters is like. I mean, he's he's the like I think about this all the time that like you watch his older movies and they're genuinely filthy. Like they're genuinely like incred like really outray. Yeah, they earn the word subversive the way a lot of movies don't. And just by lasting He has become such a like mainstream beloved figure in a way that like it reminds me so much. I mean, this is the negative way to put it, but the line in Chinatown. When they're talking about when John Houston has the line about like that rich people are like they're like like ugly buildings and prostitutes. If they last long enough, they become respectable. Well, I think Nick Jagger said, you know, in America, they try to ban you and then they put you in a museum. Yeah, which and both of those things have literally happened to John Walers U're say we say so in you're saying in that so you had this you had this in the nineties, you had this like outburst of Yeah, this indie boom, you know, of like of low budget queer films and then kind of this sort of like crosssover into commercial and even mainstream movies where suddenly, they're like, oh, there's money to be had here because We were such a starved audience at that point. We would run out to see whatever it was., let's face it, disposable income. 'use you know, it's not wasting them on children most of the time d am. little ds, right Well, I mean later, not so much, but yes, at that time, sure, let's say yes. But um, you know, so so then you start getting movies like in and out or even like, um You know, a Jeffrey, you know, where like like big names are attached and you're getting released into like, you know, big city art houses and maybe even some suburban multiplexes. Philadelphia, that is that Yeah, that's I mean, that's right in there, but that falls more in the category of like these sort of that's almost like a movie Stanley Kramer could Yeah That's a message about exactly about social issues, you know But but an important one, you know, And I think for a lot of people, their first time seeing a queer character who was the hero and who was played by Frein Hanks, you know and they get to follow Denzel's journey of going from like homophobic and AIDS phobic and you know, not wanting to deal with this stuff to completely accepting and loving this other, you know character and wanting to save him and wanting to, you know, like help him J But yeah, I think also like there is that thing of the nineties, there's that residual, you know AIDS panic, certainly. I think it manifests itself probably most vividly in the what we call the Michael Douglas seexual Panic trilogy. fatal attraction, basic instinct and disclosure, which are completely heterosexual movies, but they're all about AIDS, really becausecause they're about like, you know, married dudes, you stray and it's gonna it's going blow up in your face and you better watch. He is just so fuckable is the thing.. When you're that hot, what are you going to do? He had so much sex you gave him cancer. Dan, that's not how it happened. Do not? I mean it could be No, we can't. Yeah can't..'s actually's actually. I actually have a friend who just got through that same cancer from likely the same cause from HM. Right. Well, maybe that's how it happened with Michael Douglas then, I don't know. So I mean, I just wouldn't conflate him as a real person with the characters he played in the movies. like he wast It's not like those experiences in fail attraction and basically things that actually happened to him. What Those were documentaries S closest alive A someomeone stop her. But the bunny's okay, right? Stewart, I gotta talk to you after the show Yeah. That bunny is still alive today So yeah, I just know, you guys talk about like you know eighties exploitation a lot. You know, it's clearly, I think movies that meant a lot to you guys. And I just find that's such a fascinating period in terms of, you know, it was sort of the last gasp of like, oh, you're just gonna say Fag it outut loud. we're all goinged to accept that, you know And and so yeah, you know, it's it's it's not like We can't still point to movies and be like, u, I can't this this this is problematic or I question your, you know, what you thinking with this. but I think Im Im I' going to say for the most part, we you know we are not we're no longer in those waters Yeah the most it is Yeahah. There are several reasons why u Being a fan of like eighties trash like really like hurts my heart in certain ways. I mean, I think anyim anyim anyime you're a fan of trash. like trash is going to reflect, no matter how greatertain, trash is going reflect the often the worst of a because it's going for the basest instincts not just basic instincts, but the basic. And so like it's going to reflect that stuff, but it's also like that that's the price you pay by loving culture is that is that you don't get to just you can you want to find pleasure in the things from before and the world has not always been what it is. It's not, you know, people have not always been as understanding as they are. And so It's like It's the same thing with like, we talk about movies because' a movie podcast, but like it's the thing with books or plays or you know, any depiction of reality is going to reflect the understandings of reality of the people who made it and those understanding. their limitations.. Exactly and their limitations, which is not to excuse it. but it also means that like You just got to be ready for it. You know, conf. And maybe and there's this may be a little bit selfish, but there's something about watching like trash cinema where you're put now as an older person who's maybe a little more enlightened, you're able to look back and be like I can identify that as gross and that It signifies that I am a better person than Wh I feel better. You're like, I'm still watching this. I just I identify ho. I'm not that much better. but it' also like it's like when this came out, this is things that people felt comfortable saying out loud. You know. And like they were this was a bit that they were happy to commit to and they didn't see any problem with it When Criterion recently put out Risky Business, which is a movie that I was obsessed with in high school, Glen Kenney did this great piece. It was like, Thank God, it holds up. Like there's nothing in this movie that is so glaringly eighties. Like there's even there is a trans sex worker in that movie They are treated with respect in risky business. And it's just like, wh Because so much so much from the eighties, I mean, my go the early J O you're just like, o, did we do that? It's such a joy to find older stuff and assume it's going to not hold up and then be like, oh wow, like I mean, this is a dumb one, but like rewatching old episodes of Nightcourt, I'm like, wow, Dan Fielding was actually fairly progressive despite being like a letithario. Yeah. Well, look as opposed to, you know onnce the Gen Z started watching friends during the pandemic, it was like, o. O or Starship troopers The Starship Troopers is a movie that you people don't get and that's their problem That also it's so I mean, I find it so funny. when Starship troopers came out, they were like, Paul Rhoven doesn't realize he's made a pro noti movie. and it's like I think dude, I think he knows who he's doing. I like a lot of people and I'm gonna make a national judgment here. Maybe particularly in America feel the need to like hold themsel above whatever they're watching, which allows them to make assumptions that like The blindingly obvious thing in front of them was like done by mistake somehow. that's Do you know he's wearing a Nazi uniform? Yeah, like that that's the signifier that is supposed to tell you how to feel about the movie. it's like, I mean, like I was saying about how they didn't like invent sex after the thirties, like you watch a movie like the Gang's all here and that whole dance number with those giant banas and you're like And they're like they they they realize these are phalic? Of course they did. they had premises then. likeike they knew They'd invented by that point. Yeah lookook, I just started watching The Bys for the first time and I jobsmacked that anybody watched the first season of this show Yeah and didn't immediately get what the show was about. Like I remember hearing like somewhere on like episeason three people were like, Oh my Godd, the show's gone awoke and like It's right there from the beginning. Like this he is not the hero. Ter is not thext. Well, I think there's a lot there's a lot of people who they don't know how to how to read a story. like they don't know how to read what the story is trying to tell them. also especially when something is like Starship Troopers or like the boys, they're using the They're recontextualizing something to make it to make a point, you know, that people just, they don't know how to understand that new context yet. And so they just assume that it means the thing that they've always expected it to mean. you know,? Like if you did a movie where I this would never happen. But if like John Wayne had done or I guess it maybe did. I guess if you look at the searchers and you look at like John Wayne's character in that is a racist and he is shut out from society, not just because, oh, he's too strong for this world, but because he cannot make the acceptances in his heart that he needs to in order to be a part of society. And but you still and it's so it is it is a such a strong statement about that John Wayne character, but a lot of people still watch it and they're like, John Wayne, what a hero. the hero because I know John Wayne he's in it the. It's the ro. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of I think that's kind of what what doesn't work for me about unforgiven is that Clint Eastwood is such an icon at that point and for him to play this character who is so messed up, I remember seeing it with an audience and when he starts shooting everybody at the end and you're supposed to think, oh no, this character is now lost to the dark side of his soul and they're all like, Yeahah, get them. Do it do it. Yeahah. I think' also muchict sure. I mean, as much as I love Clin Eastwood's work, and I think he is I thought I loveved jor number two. I thought it was so I thought that was such a such you and I differ my friend. No I really a do I liked a lot. But with unforgiven, I think there is part of it J number real turn you guys around. The third ye yeah. Oh I thought it really improved on juror number one, which had potential you know But I think I'm forgiven I wonder if's or at least for cause If there's a part of him where he's like, I want to say this, but I don't quite know how to say this and he falls back into Kind of the old patterns I feel like unforgiven, it hits its point when they shoot that guy who's sitting in an outhouse. and then everything after that is like, yeah, all right. like that's I mean, that's the moment of the movie that hits its point, you know. So. Well, and to bring this back to our topic, like when cruising came out in nineteen eighty, a lot of queer people were mad about that movie while it was being made because We'd been absent from the screen and now he's this movie about like these Serial killers in the leather world And the same with basic Inst. when that came out, I remember the protest. Oh yeah Yeah In both cases, I think those movies have evolved in a way that like, for example, when cruising was being made, a lot of people in the leather community were thrilled. They were like, oh, great, we're in a movie. L we are being shown as part of the queer community because so often, you know, this is in the era Leather guys and drag queens were often being discouraged from like being in the parade because you know, they weren't sort of like, you know, a heteronormative, you know, assimilationist enough But yeah, as cruising ages, I think people have a lot of different reads on it. I mean, you can just look at that movie as this kind of like anthropological study of a New York that no longer exists, you know? That whole the meat packing district where all those bars are, those are condos now, you know and the brambles community was about to get hit so hard by aIDS that that is this moment in history that is at least captured, you know? And basic instinct, same thing. A lot of lesbians have since sort of embraced that movie like Sharon Stone is a badass in this movie. She's in charge. She is calling all the plays. She is Befuddling and bewitching everybody smartest person in the movie by far. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you know, for a movie that at the time, people were furious about because it was like yet another queer killer, she is such a cool customer and such a glamorous object and such a, you know, again, people are coming to her on her own terms that audiences respond to that And I'm fine with queer villains in a context where there's queer everything. And that's I think that's the I think I was going to ask if you thought that was the difference, maybe, is that at a time when the only queer representation was as villains or victims. was was about silence of the lambs for Yes. likeike that means something different than in a world where multiple types of queer characters, and so you can have a queer villain without it being like This is the rep this is the speaking for everyone. Yeah, totally. No, yeah, I think it makes a huge difference. And Silence of the Lambs, you know is still argued about in queer circles. I think everybody acknowledges it's a great movie, obviously. It is, you know, it's no Joururn number two, but yeah it's ar. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it'll do. But no's it is this extraordinary thriller, but it's like, you know Well how are we meant to read this this, you know, trans a serial killer essentially who we werere given this, you know, and I think again, it's the context of like, are we seeing all kinds of trans characters? Are we seeing all kinds of queer characters? or is this it? you know And partly because it's not only a great thriller, but it also is a presentation of like likeike U Earthy American life, like Steel toown life So you see like a lot of extras that look very regular and normal people. And then you have this one like seedy character. like it further complicates it for me at least I mean that There's a lot with that character that I think in a world where you're seeing a variety of characters, a variety of of you know, transmask, trans fam representation in movies, then it just becomes part of, you know, the tapestry. But at the time, you know, there were so few, I mean G's and L's let alone T's in movies. and certainly that we were being presented as heroic or even protagonists Yeah, I get why at the time that movie upset a lot of people. And you know, you hear conflicting reports about whether or not Jonathan Demy went on to make Philadelphia as a Ma Coopa or not, you know, like who even knows Yeahah, I it has been fascinating, you know, we've been getting a lot of trans voices in film criticism in the last few years. like if you've not picked up Cpssees Fools and Monsters by Willow Caitlin McClay and Kaen Mark Gardner,'s that's a book that will actually tell you what's great about Glenn or Glenda. you know, Like they will take these sort of texts that have been discarded and be like, well, actually this Has this to say about Len Lndza maybe one of the most progressive movies ever made in For the fifies. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's trying for something and it's trying to like, you know, make a plea for tolerance and under the moment at the moment using buuffalo stock footage and things. Yeah. That's. It's like that characters left not with like a rejection, but instead of a like, well, let's let's figure out how to how to boat together. Let's angora sweaters.. you know, the BJ and Harmony Coangelo wrote an entire book about sleepaway camp, which ot made trans people very angry at the time, but I think why. You know, there's a I don't know what were they so upset about? No, but I think there's a way that these texts exist where even something that is considered at the time like negative or, you know, like like people you know, people used to think And to this day still think like the boys in the band is a terrible representation of like queer life. But it's there and it's an attempt to at least tap into some real truths and and an acknowledgement of our existence, you know, like I'll even say during the Hes code years, you know, you could you could pick apart Hitchcock, you know, giving us like Mrs. Danvers and Rebecca or you know, Ro strangers on the train or Yeah, exactly. Robert Walker's character or like, you know, or Norman Bates or whoever as being these negative representations, but it's like, but at least we're there Yeah you know, I guess that's the question. wouldould you rather the question would you rather be invisible or would you rather be acknowledged in in a less than positive way, you know, Yeah. Yeah, neeither are great choices. They're terrible choices. You know. And I think I think it's the fact that we've moved past those two choices that now allows us to look back at the negative ones and say like, well, at least they, you know, they got this or they included us in this or they they they make this acknowledgement. like, you know, I think it it's too easy to just dismiss something as terrible or reprehensible or, you know, negative. But if you if you approach it in a different way, you know, I my God, I just read like a fascinating book about the history of the Children's Hour on screen from these three, which was the sort of cleaned up version to the eventual movie of it. Like yeah, I think that any text even if it was reviled at the time could later yield some kind of insight into the queer experience as it was you know, either being lived or at least being perceived and understood by straight people. people who for better or worse been that story main storytellers or R sometim? You keep taking the jobs. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeahah The u So if the u We should we should start to wrap up, but are there particular are there I was wondering if there are either you mentioned You mentioned now Cpses fools and monsters. But like are there other books or are there recent movies or forgotten movies that you would recommend to people where're like, this is worth watching, not just for historical purposes, but like this is, you know, this is one that you're really going to get something. Oh, sure, yeah. Well, yeah, definitely Cpsus Fools and Monsters and the Sleepway Camp book by Celangelos Also, Travevele Anderson, a former Max fun host, has a book called We See Each Other aboutb trans representation in film. That was very helpful to me as I was writing Hollywood Pride. pointed out several folks you like artists that I didn't know about and characters on screen that I didn't know about. As far as recent movies, a queer movie of recent vintage, I think it's on Canopy that I've been really trying to press ono people because I feel like it got generally overlooked in its release. It's an Italian movie called Lemenita It stars Penelopei Cruz as the mother of a trans son. But it's Italy in the early seventies and nobody understands what is going on with this quote unquote girl. you know, and they don't understand his behavior. But the kid has this very rich fantasy life of his own involving, you know what his future is going to be like or how he can exist in the world as a boy, as the boy that he understands himself to be. And so it's got these really big fun like kind of musical numbers that are fantasy sequences, but there's also this really cool thing where there's this encampment of people living in the woods across the street from their high rise apartment and he goes there and hangs out and just presents himself as a boy and that's how they welcome him. and he gets to sort of live this separate existence where he just gets to be a boy and nobody asks him questions about So that's a film that I really love that that I would love for more people to see. So yeah, go look for Lemensata Dan, do you have any other, I mean, you're kind of the you're kind of the expert on this stuff though. So Dan, do you have any other thoughts about queer representation in film or you know with the experience of it. I mean, I was going to talk about seeing cruising for the first time last year, but wow. I feel like the moments' passed so we can just than. I want to talk about my favorite movie of the year so far, Pillian W Okay well, maybe not my but it's up there.'s's dinner. Yeah, yeah. How favorite was the Mandalorian and Grogu, yeah yeah. was not in that community. I found it to be really affecting in part because of the way that it presents like kink and that the like, I guess BDSM or leather culture in such a like plain format, like yeep, and they don't seem to make a joke out of it. But I don't know. how do you feel about it I liked it a lot. I actually I think it would be a really good double feature with Baby Girl, the recentman movie because I kind of feel like they're both sort of coming out movies for kingsters. You know, they're about people who are able to sort of understand this is what I And this is what I like and this is what I respond to. and this is what I don't want. you know. And so it' it's about people understanding themselves, declaring that to the world and also setting the boundaries of what that is going to be for themselves. And they're totally and stylistically different films, but I think they're both really effective at that. And they're but they're both like the drama comes from them trying to understand where those boundaries are and like figuring that out. They're not meant to be what like paragons of this lifestyle. This is simply people learning something. Yeah. They're figuring it out And they're figuring out how do I accommodate this into the life I already have. whether it's you know, the husband and children I have in my position as a CEO or just Tony B lifeife with my parents or, you know, how my day to day existence, like how does this all fit in how does this all fit together Yeah? You're saying it's a step forward from in most older movies is it would be a joke about someone walks into the wrong room You' someone just kind of swinging a short whip with a biker cap on and that's the and just know person Yeah yeah I have not listening to your exit to Eaten episode yet, but I have to I gott to get into that. That is that is What's funny about that is that its's portrayal of Ky communities is like the least of the problems in the movie Although I mean, like smuggling or whatever. Gry Marshall spent a lot of time in dungeons doing research on. The funny thing about that movie is like the problem is not that what it is showing is offensive. The problem is that what they're showing as kink is so tame. so funny. Why does this even go to an island for this?ike let's look at some. There's a showroom sequence where they're going through different kinky situations. you can do it and they're like Love in an elevator. Ooh, with you're going down It's like, okay, well this this is the most. This is the most like you know, two percent milk, one percent milk v. I'm gonna sit on you with my bare bottom. I mean, yeah, I am not part of the BDSM community, but even I could tell that the fifty Shades movies were some bullshit, you I mean, the most real moment in any of the fifty Sades movies is thev moment where Daka Johnson is in the middle of getting dressed and they have an argument. And I was like, this feels real. This is ever Human behavior. It' a human. sometometimes you have an argument in the middle of getting dressed. But but there's not sexy about it, you know Elliot, do you have a recommendation? I should have prepared one considering I the question. I don't really I'm gonna to think about one. That's gonna be my homework assignment.s. I think about what you've done. I've been so deep, yeah, Ely. I've been so deep in Czech comedies lately that I haven't been going outside of that world too much. That's a two circle Venn diagram, I'm pretty sure So But what was Milas Foreman? One of his first American movies was like taking off them Taking off Yeah. I don't know if there's anybody queer than that haven'ten know that there is, but I mean, taking Off is a great movie at the very least about people trying to understand other people, you know, like, you know, so those parents are looking for their they're looking for their daughter and their daughter' is in kind of like youth culture. but I don't remember there being any Anyone we in it, but I'll watch it again It's a good movie And I'm sure that now that I think about it the movies I've been watching, I'm sure probably have gay jokes in them that I just didn't because you know Yeah. I mean, the thing about like those early like the late sixties, early seventies, like the code was gone, you could suddenly do characters like that. But since most of those movies were being made by like straight dudes, it was like, well, let's either it's either going to be comic relief or a killer, you know, But look at how progressive we are by having this, you know Homo inclusion, you know. we put you in the movie, You're the bad guy or we laugh at you. We acknowledge your existence. What do you want? What else could we do? Come on. C C I be the star of the movie? of a movie I'll to I'll have to think of something. I'll have to Well, I'll have to expand whate I'm watching Uh because it's like listeners for the past few episodes of the show, they're like, let Elliot watch some other stuff. So you stopp recommending just chezch companies from the same director over and over again U this has been a really fun and very I think What an eye opening conversation. really learned something today. share. Alonso, it's always such a joy to have you to have you on the show. We'll have to have you back again real soon. But thank you for watching this book one last day. Yeah yeah. please. Yes my book, Hollywood Pride, that I wrote for Running Press and Turner Classic movies It's available everywhere book an eb book and an audio book. so look for them where you find those things. ask your library to snag a copy if they haven't already. And it's got tons and tons of ideas of films that you might want to check out. But always a pleasure to be here, guys. I'm thrilled when you have me back and this was a great chat. Who reads the audioob book Me. Oh. Wh Id to get Morgan Freeman and we wouldn't return my c. No I would so much rather hear you read at Alonso than anybody else. Oh, snop But thank you so much, everybody for listening. This has been the Flophouse podcast. A mini episode. We'll be back next week with a movie episode, but it won't be as interesting, But it'll probably be dumber It'll be dumber, probably. We can praise this episode without bearing another. I don't know how do. That' the way I was raised. We are a member of the Max Fun network. There are lots of great Max Fun podcasts. Maximum Film is a Max Fun podcast. Yes, it is And where you can hear it more of our friend Alonso. Our show is produced by Alex Smith. You may know him better as Howell . And if you don't know Miss Hal Doty Take a look. Listen to his music, listen to his podcasts, he's hilarious. He's a great guy. He does great work for us. and he does great work on his own Owise, if you happens to find yourself in a situation where you could leave a positive review for us on the podcast Listener of your choice Why not do so? Why not take advantage of that fiveive stars whyy not be generous? Give us five stars. Yeah. If six is an option thill yourself, why be stingy with stars? we have saving them uponey. You can't take them with you. Infinite supply. That's true. And dnam It's filled with them. Just grab the b graber Yeah, be like the kid in that in little Calvino story that Pixar made a short out of and just pluck some stars out and you know, bring them home with you Everyone Is there anything else I forgotten, Dan? No you did. Great. Okay. So thank you so much for listening again. We'll be back next week And I guess I'll end with my normal catch phrase that I end every episode with keep floping it up, flopppos. Oh man,'s f. And I've been Stuart Wellington. I've been Damn M. And we've been joined by Alonso Doraldi U Maximum fun