The changing culture of Premier League

Welcome to the football boardroom It's strictly business this week Newcastle United The sale of Ellia Andson to Forest. What was going on there? T Nali now going to Tottenham Hotspur Have lessons been learned and a really acrimonious dispute between Chelsea and Manchester City overver Ezomareskca Please don't forget to subscribe And we hope you enjoy the show. Morning, CP. I'm back in KC Kansas City It could have been the morning after the nightmare before, but fortunately a player I know who you admire highly Harry Kaine rescued England, Harry Houdini is all the headlines on the back pages. and the front pages are saying today. So yeah, it was quite night. England March on in America Oh Mexico, that's the next stop. I really don't know how you're getting through that. you don't seem to be getting any sleep. Yeah, it could have been a sleepless, sleepless night for us all over here. in Seattle though No, sleepless in Atlanta. It was quite a hard watch and I u It ended ily for now and onward and upward, literally upward to the heights of Mexico City over seven thousand feet, two and a half thousand feet higher than Ben Nevis for a game of football for some English lads, that ain't going to be easy, but we shall see. But I have to say H, I was Fascinated by the fact that sitting there in our midfield last night. was a young man Ellia Anderson who is Unusually, I would say for the first time in my career, really unusually, we're seeing Massive transfer business completing on my side of the pond here in Little Old England while a footballer is ping his trade at the World Cup for his country. That's new. for it to be a deal of this scale is new And then one little thought when I was looking back at a moment in time that is getting a lot of focus over here this morning H the moment when Elier left Newcastle United thirtieth of june twenty twenty four, I believe He was described in the press release as an Scotland Under twenty one Innational and there I was watching him last night playing for England. What happened I mean, it's such a good question. I mean I can remember seeing him at Wol and Boys Club where he used to play and they obviously developed. And he was going along there. This was in september twenty twenty three. and there was a lot of talk about him representing Scotland. He's got Scottish lineage And there was a bit of a fight over him between the Scottish Football Association and the English football Association. And I can remember that he turned up at this event at Wols End Bys Club in September. and everyone was basically saying, are you're on your way to Scotland. And the Scots, when they found out that he was at this event and Wilst at Newcastle United, supposedly having some treatment, they thought, o, something's afoot here And maybe he is in this international week going to commit himself to England and that is absolutely becausecause we know when players are representing England, which he then went on to do after the under twenty on s, Tul called him in september twenty five after a very successful under twenty one tournament. Tul actually was there in Slovakia and Tul actually sort of came out to watch him and then you knew then that he was going to make that step up So heartbreak for the brave Hearts, the Scots, but fantastic news for England. And also imagine for his agent and the price of the ticket. CP, let's go back to twenty twenty four and take me through what was going on in the boardrooms because obviously it has ramifications now. Why did Newcastle need to sell. Well, you're quite right. were there was a lot going on in both boardrooms. We referred to in a previous episode turmoil at Tur Newcastle. in fact, Amanda Staveley had left, Dan Ashworth had left just beginning to put together a new management team Um Really Henry in and around the end of that season, it became quite clear that the significant investments that Newcastle had been making in the three years since the Saudis had bought the club had come to a sort of big halt under the overarching pressures of the PSR rules On the thirtieth of june twenty four, which was the last day of Newcastle's financial year, they negotiated two deals with Nottingham Forest. They negotiated the sale of Ellia Anderson and the acquisition of a goalkeeper called Vlacadimos, which were announced the following morning, first july twenty four And that deal, I think, has come to symbolize a moment in time when clubs that had got themselves into problems with the financial rules found themselves doing business that really had nothing to do with football and everything to do with and frankly, it was, you know, a terrible, terrible moment for Newcastle foootball Club because anyone would see that a boy who'd been at the club since he was eight years old, twenty one, forty or fifty Premier League games, certainly, I think it's fair to point out contextuallyally wast you know, wasn't a starter every week in as he is as he became for Forest and as he now is for England, but a player full of potential Um, was sold for a headline price of thirty five million pounds. to Nottingham Forest But Henry, as I've suggested, on the same day In a separate transaction, Newcastle agreed to buy Nottingham Forest Reserve goalkeeper, Mr Vlacadimos for twenty million pounds. Now you and I know if I was selling my lovely car for thirty five grand and the buyer said to me, lookook, one thing, I need you to buy my old banger for twenty grand. and I think that's worth nothing. I'm really selling my car for fifteen. And so in reality, Elliot went for fifteen million pounds. I say that because Vlacadimos had gone to Forest a year before for five million and had played four games of football, I think So that deal looks not just with hindsight, but at the time to have been what we call in business, a forced sale fifteen million pounds of real value for Anderson and then the final piece of the puzzle with no salon clause and that turned out to be. very, very unfortunate for Newcastle United because as you said player has gone on almost exactly two years later to be sold for one hundred sixteen million pounds Just before we get on to the sellon clause, because obviously that's key to the debate in all this. Just from Newcastle's perspective, I mean there was a great sort of quote, a sort of brief quote that was doing the rounds at the time is that we had a gun held to our heads in terms of Newcastle and the negotiating. and also because as you say, the clock was ticking PSR. Is that right that cost or the profit of Anderson they were able to use in their twenty three twenty four figures. But for Vlacodimos, the cost for him could be spread over the terms of his contract. So from a financial perspective, and I know we're only talking a few million here Actually it made sense for them to do those deals in those two parts. The crucial element to the deal was that Newcastle United were booking a thirty five million pound profit because Elliot was in the books at nothing. He was the definition of a home grown academy player. been there since he was eight. And that thirty five million pounds of profit on the thirtieth of june, the final day of the financial year prevented Newcastle losing more than they were allowed to lose, which would, as night follows day have resulted in them having a points deduction. So the gun to head analogy you're referring to is a simple choice Sell a player we'd rather not sell almost certainly get a points deduction So that's very clear, very understood. and you know, I would say ruthlessly exploiting that situation from a Nottingham Forest perspective. who It's one thing selling Elliot Anderson for thirty five million pounds to help them get through FFP Not a lot of people would have argued with that as a price But there are two elements of the deal that I think make it M, much, much harder for Newcastle fans now and definitely then to a stomach, and they are the fact that they equally forced to take a goal keeper who when he joined Newcastle, made one appearance before going out on loan a reserve goalie Who had cost five million pounds a year before, and yet Newcastle were paying twenty million pounds for Forest's reserve goalie. Well, there are many starting goalies of high quality who don't move for twenty million pounds. And of course, Nottingham Forest were able to book a significant profit on that goalkeeper in there SR calcul. So why? whyy did they do the Greek goie part of the deal becausecause they had no Choice And how do we know that We know they had no choice becausecause the third element of the deal For me, the most unusual the most damaging, the most costly for Newcastle is the fact Elliot moved to Forest without a so called sellon clause. And just to explain I haven't counted it up, but I will have done maybe fifty to sixty player sales in my career. And I have never sold a footballer under the age of twenty six years old without a Cllon Clause, and I've never bought a player under that age where I wasn't accepting a Cllon Clause. In other words, I want you and our audience to understand that sell on cllaws for a young player whatever their quality, whatever their trajectory, whatever their assessment the potential almost standard procedure. And the bit that gets negotiated is that percentage The range in my experience over tens of transactions I think if you're selling and you've got a little bit of leverage and a little bit of time, you'll get a twenty percent sell on clause And if you're right up against it and the buyer is saying, noope, we don't want to give you that much, you might end up settling at ten ten to twenty would be the range fifteen in the middle. Now let's explain what that means for Newcastle United today two years later. Pretty simple maths, okay prettyre simple maths. Nottingham Forest have sold the footballer now for we're reading one hundred sixteen million pounds They paid U aboutb thirty five million pounds So we're talking about an eighty million profit fifteencent to twenty percent of that today would have been payable to Newcastle United if they had had that clause. And my point to you is simply that the fact they didn't shows just how weak their position was by being in a situation where they were forced to sell a player On the very last day of their financial year Okay Taking a player they didn't need or want and we know that's true because he never played for Newcastle not having a sell on clause, which is the single most standard provision you would see in the sale of any young player. let alone a young player to don't think it's being wise after the event was obviously a player of high potential. The fact he's gone on to start for England at a World Cup in less than two years and be sold for one hundred sixteen million pounds tells you it was a player of great potential mark up in value for none of that to accrue to the club that developed the player from the age of eight I think is an absolutely terrible outcome for Newcult United. and the root cause and this is where I want to This is where I want to go with this because I think They've moved on as a club, the market's moved on. The root cause of selling that footballer Selling that footballer with two related transactions that they wouldn't have wanted to do in the normal course of business and not having a sell on Clause, the root cause it's the last air of the window and they had no other alternatives And let's contrast that with today H todayoday, obviously we move into Tanali country. But just very quickly on that, you focus very much on Newcastle's weekend. Shouldn't we also Whether you think this is opportunistic by Marinakis, Marinakis played an absolute blinder over Anderson. Take me inside you've met Marinakis, Take me inside the forest boardroom and that you can call it brutal, you can call it sound business sense. but Marinakis played an absolute blinder on this, hasn't he? Absolutely and you can apply whatever adjective you like and I think I think Ruthless is a really good one to describe the fact that he saw an opportunity to buy an up and coming player from a club that had to make a sale and it seems had to make a sale in the final two or three days before their financial year end. It wasn't the only transaction at that time in the evolution of financial rules and regulations where we saw clubs selling players they really didn't want to sell very late in their financial year. It was a moment in time. But this was a really extreme example. because again, with hindsight now, we know Bying a young player As I've explained, the real cost to Nottingham Forest of Elliot Anderson was the thirty five they paid less Let's be generous and say Let's say that, you know, the twenty million they got for their goalie, you know, was really, you know fifteen to, you know, five million of value being what they paid. So the real price they paid ull Elliot was twenty million pounds. Okay? That's the real price they pay, and they've just sold him for just under a hundred twenty million quid. By my math, simple English, all our audience can hear it. They've made a hundred million pounds of profit. within two years on one young footballer. Eraordinary business by Nottingham Forest and yep, ruthless, brutal, opportunistic, skillful taking advantage of the rules, whatever it is, you can't knock it really from a Nottingham Forest perspective. And though losing the player to city is something that Nottingham Forest fans won't welcome Anone can say it was a brilliant piece of business. Let's turn the clock forward two years now, Henry and look at Newcastle United today Okay, and the contrast is stark in terms of how they have gone about handling their summer business Not all of this will be welcome to Tune fans. because I'm sorry, this is a business orientated conversation about the process of complying with rules executing transfer business I'm not talking about the bigger issue of You know, losing your best players and what that says about the Tune project Let's focus for a second on the process. and This summer It's quite clear that Newcastle knew once again. They would need to sell players to comply with rules And rather than leaving it to the last day of the window, rather than leaving it to the last day of the accounting Harriot They have done two things They've moved early and they've managed to create by making it clear that they were willing to do business They've encouraged more than one buyer to come to the table. and with Byon and Bassor on Anthony Gordon pushing that boy out for I think seventy million pounds in the end. And now with Tottenham Hotspur and Manchter United both in for Tonale and we thought also maybe even city Arsenal. They were linked with him earlier in the year. They were. So so the thought, you know, Messaging in the market. I'm not talking about putting an advert on the front page of the newspaper. I'm saying in the market, with their sporting director, with their recruitment team, speaking to agents and speaking to other clubs, At the right number, there's a deal to be done for Tonali. And by the way, that's a really big number And guess what Lo and behold was still you well in early days of the summer window, Tinali's out the door for the best part of one hundred million pounds because they created competition and they didn't get themselves against a deadline. They are the two crucial ingredients in selling players properly for top dollar And they got it all wrong on the Elliot Anderson sale And they've got it right on the tinalle sale. That's to me the interesting takeaway on the events of this week. It's been fascinating. and to use one of your beloved Harvard phrases, are we seeing behavioral change? Have they they've obviously clearly learned? Well, before we get to behavioral change, we've see management change. You know, we talked on our previous tune episode That summer, was an absolute mess managerially in the boardroom at Newcastle United Dan Ashworth had gone, Amanda Staley had gone, Darren Eels was going to be going. I think he was still there. Paul Mitchell had arrived but was just getting his feet under the table. It was a real mess And now with management in place, I think probably more significantly, you know, with the Saudi ownership group having learned a horrible lesson about leaving things late and being you know, squeezed hard by ruthless rivals This time round, they seem to have As I say, executed a sale to sales much more sensibly. Now listen and you know, no football fan I know rejoices in sales, okay? It's just part of the business of football today that to comply with rules, you have to be good at selling as well as buying Question hanging over toe right now, right today in early july twenty twenty six is Does it end with Tanali and Gordon or who else goes out the building? Time will tell, but there is a sense, and this is a negative. There is a sense Newcastle have Woken up maybe on the back of the Eac events, Henry. But if you're absolute best players get slightly destabilized by Champions League level clubs In the end, it is very hard to keep them. And there's no doubt now some of those bigger clubs in the Champions League will be rununning the slide rule over. the remaining talent at Newcastle and just wondering whether they can pick up some more talent Well just before we move on and we head south Can you just clarify, becausecause I've been reading sort of conflicting reports on this that and you all know this better than anyone the Premier League. They wouldn't allow a sell on ause in the Anderson the home grown element because I've seen that somewhere and I think it may have been Newcastle fans, one or two Newcastle fans defending the deal saying they They weren't able to put a seell on cllause in. That very question Very good question I heard the same thing U. thoughtought it was complete bollocks, excuse my Bad language, mayaybe you'll beat that. No,'s very That's very you, CPe. And you very And your spot on I'm sure Newcastle fans would say the same There is no element in the PSR rules or the SCR rules, where a selling club would not be able to include a sell on clause in a sale complete Rubbish. was a direct function of the lack of negotiating leverage in that deal. Perhaps a more logical outcome would have been for Newcastle, whoever was handling those negotiations. and I'm sad to say I actually don't know who was. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Eddie How, but would have said, look, we'll have a sellon for Elliot, you have a sellon for Vlacadimos And I think it's pretty clear for I said, Now, you're all right, mate. We don't need to sell off for Llackadivos and we're not giving you one for Elliot. That is nothing to do with Premier League rules or the Premier League pure mythology to justify what was a terrible moment Business of Newcastle football club Just before we get on to sort of Chelsea and Morereskca and Manchester City, Elliot Anderson's new destination, we mention Tonali Mates Fernandez has gone in there. They're getting sort of Premier League players in there. Are we seeing a different Joe Lewis? Oh we ever. two hundred forty million of talent in Hecca, Fernandez and Tanali barely into July when a World Cup's going on. And whilst it's quite obvious, I think we've seen one sale of allad to Brighten and it's quite clear Mre will move the other way. Those of our audience who've been, you know dealing with the difficulties of the UK property market for the last ten years will know that you know one of the most risky things you can do is bridging I buying before you sell and Joe Lewis Certainly Joe Lewis under Daniel's management was very Daniel Levy was very reluctant to do that. In fact, Daniel wouldn't mind me saying because it's just a matter of fact that Surs, you know, were very, very often involved in business on the very last day of the transfer window to you know, kind of optimize prices get, get the best possible deal Well, that's all gone out the window, Hm. This is pure Get it done Don't dick around for the last few million quid if Deserbi and Langer believe that You know, Fernandez and Tonali are either. starters for this club for the next five years Or starters for this club who next time round will be going to Real Madrid or Basa for even more money, just go and get it done pay the price Pay the wages, get the boys in the building. It is a complete and utter change approach for the football club and the bit that's a bit weird is it's almost as though you've got a new owner and we haven't got a new owner. We've got the same owner we've had for donkeys years. but that owner seems to be giving this management team very different messages to the messages that he gave to Daniel Levy around put in his hand in his pocket, writing checks and excuse me speculating in a different hot market But I can't help but have noticed that the Lewis family raised two hundred ninety six million quid couple of weeks ago At Sotheby's, selling twenty five pieces of one of the finest collections of modern art in the world A record. a record for a single day sale at Sotheby's Lewis family raised. Well, I just wonder whether some somewhere over you know Christmas dinner, they said, look, you know what? I'm not really into my art. Let's sell some art, let's buy some footballers. He's certainly getting the checkbook out now, Henry. So basically it's Matis Fernandez is what they bought, what you're telling me. Okay, so look, we're talking about some very ruthless behavior. Let me take you to possibly the capital of ruthlessness, Stanford Bridge, a club you know well Some interesting statements coming out this week on EnzA Moresca and his move, controversial move or leaving of Chelsea. and you'll take me through the timeline. But just from a journalist perspective, reading the statements, particularly Chelsea's statement, where they refer to their head coach Ienza Moreskca, former head coach, but never mentioned him by name. It sounded like it wasn't written by a normal contractual or club lawer. It sounded like it was written by a divorce lawyer Yeah, I think we have talked about, you know, this is the era of big business, this is the era of Ruthless. behaviour in the Premier League and events this week between Chelsea and City certainly did. did look that way, H. the For our audience who haven't kind of followed this, Meresca left Chelsea on the first of January actually. and I had a little look at the press release that day and the press release that day said that Enzo and Chelsea Basically both think him leaving is the best thing for the team moving forward. So a sort of sense of mutuality. Lo and behold at the end of the season, Pep Guardiola leaves. read we read in the build up to that and certainly in the immediate aftermath of Pe Guadoda leaving City that Moreresca is the chosen replacement And then it all goes really quiet. Season ended may twenty fourth. we're now you know, in July and finally last week We see an announcement that there has been effectively a financial settlement between Manchester City and Chelsea, where Manchester City and Enzomoresca, by the way, Henry, have compensated Chelsea to the tune of seventeen million pounds. But sorry, the sevententy million is the city element Moreresca is on top of that and we don't don we don't know what his was. but I sort of wondered how did we end up here from a situation where, you know, there was a kind of mutual parting the ways on New Year's Day? And um I think I think Let's kind let's kind of dig into the circumstances of that exit first before we get to the payments It's very, very unusual territory we're in here between City and Chelsea because The vast majority of managers leave clubs when they are fired When they're fired they are either paid off in full or quite often paid the balance of their contract while they sit in their garden And if someone comes along when they're sitting in the garden and says we want to hire you for a new job, in most cases, they will take that job and the new club will pick up the salary and save the club that's fired the manager from having to keep on paying them under their contract. When a manager leaves voluntarily, that's much, much, much from your unusual territory But in recent years, the vast majority of those moments is because managers have in their agreements. effectively, an escape clause just like footballers do. A sum of money that says if a club comes in for me and wants to take me out of this job into a new club If they pay X, I can be released from my obligations immediately and start work immediately at another club. And that type of clause, Hemry, is now a standard feature of the League Managers Association's standard form of coaching and manager agreement in the Premier League. Do doesn't mean every contract has one is the standard form of agreement. And what is clear in the case of Enzomoresca is that didn't get put on gardening leave on the first of January. In other words, he didn't get told Okay, you want to leave. Sit at home. We're not letting you go to another club and we'll pay you. We actually it's been publicly made clear, he hasn't been paid And secondecondly, it's quite clear that there wasn't an escape clause that Manchester City then or later wanted to pay. So we're in unusual territory How can it be that City have had to pay Chelsea, not a couple of million quid but seventeen million quid for the privilege of recruiting Enzomoresca I would suggest and this is just my speculation joining the dots on the fact there obviously wasn't a gardening leaave here and there obviously wasn't a clause I suspect now reading the statements that you're going to take me through. Chelsea have said to Manchester City under complex piece of UK civil law. The law of Trght I think they have said to Man City We think that you have in effect persuaded Ezoaresa to breach his employment agreement with Chelsea. They have effectively alleged that there has been what's called a tortious interference, an attempt to persuade Enzo to leave Chelsea and Join City. And whether that's true or not, that's just my surmise. I have no evidence of that, but it feels to me as though They felt that somehow in some way, once it became clear that Man City We're interested in Enzo as a potential replacement for Pep Guardiola destabilized Marereska and resulted in him in the end leaving the club. And crucially H in the world of money and power When Enzo left Chelsea, their fifth in the Premier League Okay. So yeah, a little press release saying, Enzo and the club think it's better for the club Turn the clock forward from January to may twenty four. Where did Chelsea finish up Tenth did not go well for Chelsea and Chelsea are incandescent that Not only did Enzoreisca leave Two of their star players more or less said halfway through the Liam Rosinir ill fated regime. It was a real mistake for the club to let Enzo go, but the team continued to struggle and finish tenth in the league. And I think the owners of Chelsea who get criticised a lot actually have played an extremely strong Some would say ruthless, absolutely no messing about. hardball legal approach to say to city We're not letting we're not letting you get away with this We think it's because of you. that our season ended badly And we're not having a situation where the world thinks that was our fault It was your fault and it was it was enzomorees's fault And not only are we going to require compensation for that, But we're going to want that to be crystal clear on the record. And you tell me, the statements were, you know, pretty unequivocal Well, I mean, Chelsea's was, as you say, made the point and City's statement actually had an element of contrition and an acceptance and almost an apology of the disruption as they call it to Chelsea in Let me be clear. that's what happened in out of court. Civil. case of this kind where one side is alleging damaged us and under the law of tort, I want to be compensated for that damage It's not just we'd like some money for those damages or we'll go to court. It's we also want to write the press release explains why we have made a settlement And it looked to me like prettyt unequivocal acceptance by Enzo that his departure was his fault and city's fault And not Chelsea's fault. and that is very strong hand played by the much maligned owners of Chelsea, being a different form of business, ruthless corporate practice to Premier League, essentially threating threatening litigation if they don't get compensated I think fair play to Chelsea's leadership on this completely, completely agree with you. becausecause it was clear from early on in the season that there were rumblings from Morereskca he was interested, well that he was going to leave, that he saw himself as PP's successor desesignate and that absolutely damaged Chelsea's season. And it must have been frustrating because they came off the back of a good summer where I mean I know a lot of Leicester fans I live in the area. I don't think they were particularly enamored by his style of football and certainly the man of his exit from Leicester City But actually, he showed in the first half of the PSG Game, the Club World Cup final that he can set the team up and they actuallysol blew the European champions away. So credit to him for that. I'm not sure he's as good as he thinks he is and his cheerleaders thinks he is I think he's going into a club, which has been set up very nicely for him in terms of their recruitment. Elliot Anderson maybe solves the long term Rogery succession issue. As you mentioned, Gay and Sen you have come in in as well. It's absolutely perfectly set up for him. But he's certainly know Pp. there's an element of Pp light about him. Maybe he'll develop into that Good luck to him. And if I sound slightly sort of narky in my comments about him, it's slightly influenced by what happened at Leicester. but also just talking to Chelsea fans in the last few days And you know, he's going to get quite a reception when they go back there's airport when to point It's a really interesting point because Because why did I want our audience to understand that we are in very unusual territory here with effectively out of court settlement I think nobody's really won from this saga, Henry. You know, let's look at it plain top to bottom the stakeholders. Chelsea lost their manager midseason when they're in fifth place, as you say, coming off the back of a decent club World Cup. He was by no means perfect, but the season was on track for Champions League qualification. Turned out that fifth would have got you Champions League by the way. They end up tenth place They did what they could. The Rosenior experiment failed R's fault though. Just on Rina. that is not, I mean, we talk about the disruption to the season and you pointed this out immediately when he was given this long term contract and you said Rasenia probably won't even survive for six months, you said. That's not on Ra that I mean, if they've You know, if they caught sort of Chabby Alonzso in Then Then Would this have sort of happen now? So it's slightly on Chelsea in terms of Cext is Cext is important, but I'm simply saying Any which way you look at it, Mareskca's departure midseason was extremely damaging to Chelsea. I thought those two senior players coming out critically of the club for losing him big moment in the season. One of them' already left, the other may still leave. So So the list of things that didn't go well for Chelsea is quite long, okay? You've just mentioned Forenzo, Moreresca, okay? Not I'm not sure he cares that much. Yes We read he's even had to write a check as well to say sorry to Chelsea. Q quite sure Manchester City will have made him whole on that So that's more symbolic and a public statement of contrition than a financial issue But not great, and more importantly, as you say, he will not be well received at Chelsea, which leaves the most important other stakeholder man city. Look, in the end, they've got the manager that they seem to have chosen some time ago be the best successor to PP they expect and want to pay seventeen million pounds? Absolutely not they expect U their manager to be able to join a day or two after PEP's exit? Yes, has it taken another six, seven weeks? Is that ideal absolutely not as well So I would say my takeaway from that saga is It's a bloody good example of why the LMA are not stupid And the introduction over time of these buyout clauses actually saves a hell of a lot of hassle If there'd been a clause in Moreresca's contract, then to use one of your phrases, all's fair in love and war City would have known, if we want to take Morees out Chelsea, it costs X. Chelsea would have known if someone pays X, we lose our manager Nobody can complain But in this case, that didn't happen. and it's led to a really messy and expensive dam One other final little point on Chelsea City couldouldn't help but notice The after I guess weeks of negotiations, I suspect City started at a much, much lower number than seventeen million quid and certainly didn't want to be writing a grolling apology. Look when the deal got announced. I think it was a day or two before Chelsea's year end. So that seventeen million quid is going to come in quite handy in Chelsea's financial accounts. I think All in all, what links you know, when we talk to the start of this show about how One owner V hugely successful wealthy international businessman, the owner of Forest really exploited the financial rules to do an incredible deal. to get Elliot Anderson out of Newcastle differentere but very similar. Another enormously powerful and wealthy international business gang who own Chelsea saying, you know what? No, we're not just saying Oh, you know Bad things happen, whatever, we move on. We've got Zabin know No going to protect our position to the nth degree and we're going to get compensation. This is the preremier League we live in today, Hen. Does that concern you Because there's always, maybe it was under scootemore, and obviously it's changed now with so many foreign owners scattered around the world. That collectivity, which seemed to drive the twenty clubs They're communicating through lawyers in a way, some of them Well, that's a very good question. And again, I don't want to come off as some sort of romantic, let alone nostalgic Sort of person That's my job. Give us the hard news on it Well, I do think the culture of the leeague has hardened and toughened Um as a consequence, I would say fundamentally of two things. The sheer scale and magnitude of investment in the Premier League and with that scale has obviously come you know, a level of financial acumen, a status of international business people around the Premier League where It's strictly business, you know, Yeahah, I think when I first came in the game all those years ago. there it was it was somewhat more collegiate And all the focus really on rivalry was largely on the field of play. I don't remember a lot of agg grow and unpleasantness between clubs U And it is a fair observation by you that with that huge scale of investment international owners, very, very serious global business people They're used to doing business that is strictly business. And if that means lawyering up protect your position. That is standard operating procedure in large companies worldwide. We are seeing that more and more in the Premier League and not everyone will find that welcome. but T good examples today of that kind of new approach to business in football in England. CP just one final thing because I've got to get packing for Mexico City oxygen tank t guid all those elements. But just very quickly, just to sort of tie the whole thing up forest Perrera out, Glassner in. you know Glassner, you spoke fantastically about him in a previous episode of going to see him in this very sort of Spartan flat when he was just focused on football. Just give me your quick take on that Well, what a bloody good question and a mission of me not to link that into my riff on bigig bad ruthless businessman because the same. Big bad ruthless owner Evangelos Marinakis, if today reports are accurate. It turns out that the man who they turned to when they felt in grave danger of relegation, Vito Perrea had a clause in his what I suspect was pretty short term contract. I think it might have been eighteen months But it would appear there was a clause that said by you know, X date. can terminate this agreement costlessly And it would appear that two minutes before that deadline expired the pap' reporting that he got an email saying, sorry, mate All You're out of here That is brutal. U but I would say again that If you look at it truly objectively, I would say firstly that Vit Perrera is almost now a victim of his success. He has just got a card on his head saying, you know crisis survival specialist expert, you know, the reddare of his generation He's going to get plenty of phone calls the next time a Premier League club is four five, six points, you know the wrong side of the line and come in and fix it and if you do we willll pay you very well He has written that job description for himself And going the other way, I think it would be fair to say Club of Forest stature with an owner of his ambition, Marinax's ambition. definitely deciding look, there's an opportunity here to pick up a proven trophy winning elite European manager who not far down the road in South London has picked up a European trophy widely praised for his work for two years in the Premier League I think he has basically said I'll have him to try and take forest back to the European places And I think With some brutality around that process, nevertheless looks to me like a really shrewd appointment Let's see how that works out for Fororerest and Glasnaner Well, good luck to Oliver, as ever with football There's someone wanting more while the lights have gone out at my end, which is hilarious And you need to get your crampons. Your oxygen tank Whatever it is, maybe even a parachute to get to the top of that mountain in Mexico. settle for a right back. If I could find a right back that would be the great thing But NACP great you may get the nod. and not that travels down to Mexico. I will be watching at one AM. I'm gonna to have about eighteen coffees and lookook forward to the game and to our audience. Hope you've enjoyed the show. We'll see you next week. Hopefully when England is still in the World Cup