The Future of Football Governance

Welcome to the football boardroom H morning Good morning. How are we Well, I'm still feeling a little bit fragile that for those of us based here in England two nights ago four thirty in the morning is not my normal timing, but it still feels pretty good. And I guess you've been in the middle of it and back in good old Kansas and sitting in bars watching America Yeah, still buzzing after the AzteC a fantastic performance by England. And then going into well we're back here in Kansas City, England are resuming training today building up for the big game against Norway and Miami at the weekend. But yeah, I was in a bar last night and watching the Americans, the U.S. men's national team play against Belgium They lost for one, the bar emptied very quickly. And so you know which was strange because I was sitting there say, who can I talk to about this? Because there are so many elements to the game. The Americans, Poatino's team were an absolute shadow of themselves, as they've been earlier in the tourament, vibrant tournament. It was like there was a cloud hanging over them. And I think we know what that cloud is and foollowing Balligan started, and he was a shadow of hisself. Schoolboy defending cost them They are now out of the tournament. be interesting to see if Trump tries to get a replay.ve got to explain to him, it's actually only over one leg, not two legs. So but look, how do we get here that at the end of the game, you've got Lukaku came off the bench, scored the fourth goal, made it for one and then did the Trump dance. And then the Belgian FA, which is actually one of the more measured restrained national associations out there They then go and tweet a picture of Lakaku scoring and with the simple two words overturn this which is all about the Balligan affair. How on earth CP did we get here Well, I think the facts of this matter are Reasonably well known now as this has become a truly mega global story. and I think that in and of itself is fascinating because at its heart the decision taken by FIFA to For the first time in I think one hundred and eighty nine cases of a red card or a sending off in a World Cup tournament which confers over those one hundred and eighty nine cases an automatic one much ban for the first time ever to suspend that ban That decision, which, you know, in isolation, they might have hoped would be relatively routine has of course, we as those of us who love our football globally would have anticipated, created an absolute storm And I think the events you described last night in the pretty unfortunate exit of America. And as you say, most people would say looking a shadow of the team that impressed many, many people in the last couple of weeks, how they managed to get themselves in a situation where football fans around the world are actually celebrating their exit just shows what a miscalculation that decision really was But for me, and what I think we should talk about today is what What was at the heart of this? and it where it goes from here. And for me, this is This is a case about whether or not the game And in this case, the World Cup can protect its integrity It's reputation for integrity. fromrom charges of political interference. And I would respectfully suggest, Henry, that there is a supreme irony here that the very statutes of FIFA, the foundational laws of FIFA Statute, I think number fifteen refers to expressly Federations must be exempt from political interference and Not for the first time it looks to me as though going to charge FIA here. with contradicting its own rulebook Where did the political interference particularly come in here and was it how overt was it I think a couple of things on that. The first is the term Obviously, people have focused on the fact that President Trump has admitted a phoning Gianni infantino. gan's red card, and My take on that is I don't think that's particularly surprising or unusual. We're talking about the most media savvy populist politician, maybe in history certainly in power today around the world. And so the fact that he could pick up on widespread sadness, anger, disapproval accross America that their star playerers going to miss a crucial knockout game against Belgium and should get on the television and be seen to be trying to get that overturned. I don't think that's a huge surprise. And by the way, in the history of football, we all know that over over the near hundred year history of the World Cup It's always been associated with politicians trying to use the tournament for their own political advantage So I don't judge that harshly. What I judge is the fact that They have allowed the perception to develop globally worked but now the question is, Henry precedent has that decision taken And does that have long run ramifications for football going forward Well, it's very concerning. I mean, let's rewind it and actually look at the decision process in itself. I think a lot of people, and we swap messages about this at the time, actually felt a little bit of sympathy for Balligan with his his challenge in the Bosnia Herzeogovina game, which obviously they won too ill. he got sent off in. and the slow M pitchures didn't look great of his challenge on Maharam of Age And you just worry when there is this fuss and there is these terrible optics of political interference and a phone call having been made this does to the sporting integrity of the game, does it undermine the referee? Does it undermine you know there are two elements here. There is an invading of the sporting integrity and then obviously the ramifications of the perception of political interference and the relationship between Infantino and Trump, which we can get ono This I think is incredibly damaging because this is actually straying right into the heart of the game, into the sport into As evidenced by incredibly influential respected. Coaches like Touull and Klop, you know I was in the press conference with Tuull. and you know it should have been a moment of absolute celebration. at the Aztecca, one of the s of the greatest results in England's history. And you obviously there a lot of questions about that rightly. But he was also asked about his view of events involving other teams. And he was just saying, well Where does this end? And I thought that was very, very interesting. He says, Where does this end Does everyone now appeal made his views felt again. likeike me, we don't know for certain contents of that phone call between the President of the United States. But he admitted he asked him to review the situation. He did, he did What was fascinating was two things really. Firstly, let's be clear for our audience's benefit Not only do FIFA have express rules against political interference. and but they also have a rather classical constitutional separation between executive power and legislative power, by which I mean, in practice, that the chief executive of FIFA or Pident Infantino, cannot unilaterally make legislative decisions. That's what the rules say. He repeatedly and his people repeatedly point that out and around this particular case We heard how in fact it was the independent ficiary of FIFA who looked into the Balligan case and decided to suspend his punishment for a year. without any explanation, by the way as to why they chose to suspend it, which is another example of how poorly they manage these issues of perception around their decision making. But how independent are they? That's the key thing Well, it's it's FIFA Constitution, the FIFA rules some might say are designed to be Penetrable possible to really decodify and and understand and att the most basic level, often completely seemingly contontradictory, as I say the tournament rules clelear, a red card confers an automatic ban No discussion, no appeal End of end of the matter hundred and eighty nine times in history that's been true. So just on that, do you think that is actually a flaw in the system, which people haven't really highlighted that actually there should be a process of appeal and you have it done in twenty four hours and it's absolutely clarified. Y Yes, I do, as we have the club game and in our domestic game. I do. and by the way, I want to say like many people who've played the game or watched As much football as I have instantly highly suspicious of whether that was a fair red card on Balligan. It's not about that It was actually a surprise to many football fans who are used to appeals and Reds being overturned in club game. It was actually a surprise to people that there is no right of appeal. So that's what their rules say And yet we find this mysterious rarely used other FIFA rule Article twenty seven. that enables FIFA. I think the words are in their sole discretion or unilateral discretion to suspend disciplinary punishments with no explanation as to. That allows Infantino to do anything shortly? It does. And by the way, it doesn't stop there, Henry. It doesn't stop there. So please have this notion of rather contradictory rules And why would you have rather contradictory rules with phrases like you know sole discretion precisely to enable FIFA and this has been true from from its beginnings,'s always been true that FIFA is committed to this notion of keeping Disciplinary matters matters of rules and regulations Legislative matters, call it what you like ing them in house, subject to their own disciplinary procedures And with one caveat to that, one caveat to that which is that in the event that A party is unhappy with FIFA's decisions and indeed having appealed under FIFA appeal rules unhappy with an appeal verdict then FIFA's rules codify the notion you can go to Hass as in effect the supreme Court of FIFA for challenging appeals. Cas And the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lu Sanne Very respected independent judges sit. That's exactly what it is. and by the way, around sort of tournaments where as you've alluded to, Henry, you know they need to be able to move a little bit more quickly. I believe casts have representatives on site with the express mandate to be able to rule extremely quickly not to get in the way of the natural timetable of a tournament. And let me be clear Yesterday in the build upp to the Belgian USA game I was sure Belgiian would be really dusting off those FIFA rules on appeals and ultimately hoping to get cas involved because I asked myself a really simple question, if you took the full fax set of the Balligan case up to and including the band being suspended for that match And you applied that in, let's say, a Premier League setting I'm absolutely certain that a Premier League owner of Belgium in that situation would have been scrambling to find a legal measure to prevent Balligan playing in that football match, including seeking to delay that football match until those matters had been properly ventilated in a legal process. That's how serious Belgium would have been facing this yesterday. So I was frankly astonished to see another example of how FIFA rules really do in effect give them supreme powers. Belgians attempt to appeal The suspension being delayed were also ruled out whichich is crazy because the people that it's going to affect most are the next opponents, . e. Belgium I dont I mean, you know the perception from FIFA and we had this flurry of statements yesterday, including, well set the tone by the Belgians, saying that they were astonished at the the decision, the overturning or the sort the suspension of the of the one game ban for twelve months. He also, by the way, he got forty forty thousand Dollar fine. So there is some sort of suggestion of culpability on his his part And then obviously we had the UfA statement, which was very strong talking about sporting integrity and the red lightine. We then had a statement and this absolutely echoes your point. about the lack of transparency. We had a statement from the independent commission that looked into it, which was about eight hundred words, which didn't actually clarify how they'd got to that decision as well. So that's a separate thing. We need greater transparency on behalf of FIFA not holding Breath But your point is that the Belgians if they hadn't have won the game They might have taken legal recourse on this quite sure they would. And on the appeal point, I completely agree with you again, it really it's quite remarkable the idea being that in this particular case Belgiian were not allowed to appeal because they were deemed to have no standing in the original case, i. e a red card onfield, which was deemed under FIFA rules to be a matter solely for Balligan, the American team, the Bosnia team and FIFA. So you think about the implications of that and this is really the importance. is why we're going on about this the day after the event, Henry. That is just another example here where in effect, I think FIFA's rules have left the door wide open for these events to be repeated. This whole affair has raised questions about whether FIFA are is serious about about protecting the integrity of the sport political interference as their statutes require and whether we have set a precedent here for on the hoof rules to be made by FIFA mid tournament for whatever reason, including keeping host nations and their politicians happy. That's the perception that has been created by this sequence of ev. And more it's more than a perception, as you say, because where we now? I mean, let's be realistic about it. The football Association have let it be known that they are looking at the situation having seen what's happened with Balligan with Joelle Konzer, who I think you and I swap messages at the time, We just said that is a red card No complaints. he went in quite hard and his foot was raised. U and he, you know, he could have done some damage But of course, England, I'm gonna take your point about, you know, if it's for the hosts They might sort of want to put more pressure or infantina and FIFA be more malleable But actually, isn't it the same? Can't the football association say, well, hang on a sec, can we have concs ban lifted? The French FA you know, probably their best player after M Bay has been Michael Eisa's been absolutely magnificent for them. He's got the yellow card. couldould they You know, there's a whole the proverbial can of worms has been opened by this. Be it's huge for England going into this gameame against Norway. Yeah. And I want to be clear that the point about post nation political pressure Really, I was making two points and they are that Post nations have always had a particular standing and status around tournaments and, as I say, in the most broad sense of the word of politics, one of our Korea two thousand two. there were slight echoes then. being out there Ka When they got to the semis in two thousand two panic right the way back to the origins of the tournament and So that's not new, okay? And but you're absolutely right the precedent is by that's the whole point about precedent. It's not. it's not. you know, it doesn't have an asterisk marked. You can only apply this prestent if you're a host nation. Yes, it might explain and I'm it's not my job to explain. FIFA's behaviour because it leaves me incredulous actually in general But if you try and just somehow apply some logic to why on earth they might You know feel ing out the USA in this case made some sense for the greater good of FIFA, well, I think it's pretty obvious There's a real danger audiences in the USA for the rest of this tournament, switch the tally off and that's very damaging commercially. So So Sry, you think this was uppermost in Fantino's thoughts. His concern about hosts going out and look, we've had this debate, you and I when hosts go out of tournament, it's like the landlord in the pub turning the jukebox off and putting the chairs on the table and saying, haven't you got homes to go to? And of course that commercial good analogy and I'm not saying I'm just saying It's a money power politics, mate, we talk about it all the time Money issue here is this is I said in our last show and I stand by it This is the anything goes Let's max it out World Cup, okay, whether it's ticket prices, whether it's we described in our last show, hydration breaks that were a close cousin of this decision. You know, the decision to include three minute hydration breaks, whether you need water or not because you're indoors in aircon or it's pissing down with rain, you're getting a three minute hydration break That was a FIFA decision in twenty twenty five. in many respects contradicted or countermanded existing IFab rules on brakes. So That is a similar pattern of behavior. And so yeah, you don't need to be you know a rocket scientist to figure out that people in FIFA would see the US going out last night as damaging and losing their best player would contribute to that. So that might have been a factor. Now we're led to believe because that's what we read yesterday Obviously, these judicial processes are completely independent of the executive, which means completely independent of such commercial considerations U who knows? Okay. just just just on that. I mean, I mean, you say it's not rocket science and Houston, we do have a problem You point about the hydration. I'll give you some insight into the way FIFA works on this and the fact that They basically drive everything through and they're probably power that they have, the power in the presidency, the power they have over this great game, the concern that people have and why that scoreline was trending last night of FIFA one restest of the world four and The hydration brakes. I mean I always call them the non commercial power raid sponsored hydration brakes because they are sponsored by which a very good point made one of most important sponsors at FIFA Brilliant I'm glad you spotted that because excuse me, I absolutely hadn't, and that's a really, really good point. But a group of us sort of the English press who was s you know we get on our moral high horses about things to do with BefA. saddled up. We absolutely saddled up and it wasn't a small pony. it was an absolute sea biscuit that we climbed on pasting We were, abbsolutely. You're not a cowboy Well, it has been said. You should see my line dancing But anyay, one or two sort of fairly heavyweight FIFA officials actually came in for a quiet word, a very sort of distinguished word with sort six or seven of their English critics in the press room before the game at Atlanta in that magnificent stadium there. And just arguing the point about hydration brerakes and the importance of welfare. And you made a really important point, which I've made to parrot it as my own idea to a lot of foreign journalists who are asking about it, your point about sort of offcO and the issues with that. But I think we can see an element of that coming in and the whole game of four quarters So anyway, that's a sort sign of FIFA's Almost how they're changing the game changing the sport. I don't mind so much the sort the you know, the overly commercial side clinging to the rounds, you know, you walk through these to these stadiums and you're walking past corporate tent after corporate tent. I don't mind that because that's generating the money, which ultimately FIFA is, they say, a non prorofit making organization. and in fairness to them, their foundation and this is one of the reasons why Infantino is is in such a strong position is because a lot of the money generated from this Bonanza cashe once every four years with a World Cup gets spread around the world But coming back to the central points on this and the reason why there has been such anger is that this is not manipulation is too strong a word, but this is actually influencing sporting shape and outcome of a game if someone can be reproved. We have to come back to this central point. in that player who was banned was now allowed back in I want to pick up on ion of the FA reviewing their options with J Conos. car And I am sorry to be I do not want to sound like a dreamer here. I really don't Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of that red card versus Balligans. For the record, I thought Baligs was not a red card and I thought Gerlles was, unfortunately. For me it's not about it shouldn't be about the sporting issue. This is about the application of long held principles and rules that the integrity of the game of the spore of the tournament should be paramount And that's what I'd like our FA to be focused on. N seeing if they can it to me, there's something Does it undermine their position if they do pursue the Ker thing? becausecause I contradict I feel uncomfortable morally and ethically. the idea that RFA are going to say exploing a loophole with no tooit what we all think was very questionable. ation of you know rules to do the right thing here by FIFA, whether we can exploit that. player reinstated for the match against Norway. I want us to be better than that and I definitely want the FA and other leading federations around the world to be better than that. The temptation now, let's be really honest about this. Our audience know this. Now that Belgium have given America an absolute going over Many football pans are chuffed There will be people who think one. It backfired terribly on the USA, the Fat the boy was reinstated You never got a kick. They got stuffed there're out Nobody has suffered which means Belgium have in civil law, basic principle of civil law, they've suffered no damage. They certainly haven't got a civil case. So we really now are in the shall we just all move on mode? And I really hope wish that's not the case. and the only people who can ensure that we don't just forget it and forgive it H The leading federations around the world whose job within their own countries is to be governing body that oversees the health of the game And their vote and their seat at that FIFA cououncil seems to me a really powerful and important one. We all know the secret of FIFA's impenetrable governance and The fact that you know, long before Gianni in Fantino FIFA presidents have have survived many, many a challenging moment The governance certainly works in their favour, as you say There's nobody in Curacao or Cabo Verde who views Infantino as anything other than a hero getting them you know, into a World Cup and giving them same vote at the cououncil as Debbie Hewitt from the FA, that really does tend to provide a huge political power base for the leaders of FIFA to stay in. So nothing changedes. That doesn't mean Henry In my view, leaders of major federations like the FA, like the DFB in Germany Like the French, like the Spanish, like the Norwgians. Norwegians always strike These people need to be standing up and saying, actuallyually Enough's enough. This moment at the tournament s two a real question mark about the executive whether they are capable of Do the right thing here and protecting the sport in the long run And that should be the focal point. and I shudder at the thought that They haven't got the stomach for such for such a discussion, such a debate actually turn it on its head and think can we take advantage of this decision and apply it to England That makes me really queeezy H. I thought what was really interesting in the flurry of statements yesterday when really the piece of paper we should be looking forward to was the team sheet, was the statement from UEFA which actually, they showed their studs. It looked like it had been written by a high powered pack of lawyers and also people who are concerned about the future of the game. And I do think this is where infantino is slightly vulnerable. There is so much anger But I cannot see. And I've been involved in so many of these campaigns, written about it, broadcasted about it, looking into FIFA They keep bouncing up. They're like the Monty Python knight. We can have a go at them, but they're still there fighting. You're not going to topple infantino what I was suggesting In respect of, RFA is obviously, it's a lonely voice just our representative in that, I think it's two hundred and eleven person council that ultimately is the rule making and decision making body of FIFA. But I think it's a different kettle of fish if the leaders of the major football playing nations in the world Nations that make up the vast majority of players at FIFA tournaments, nations now led by hugely influential coaches certain to take over in Germany. Thomas Toull now in England. So, you know, coaches who who sort of straddle club and international football, those voices collectively U exerting Pitical influence using their voice to shine a light Not on know FIFA as a whole, but on some of the decision making that has characterized the last few years in particular. I'd like to think that would be something on their agenda. and this terrible acceptance that we can't do anything about it, you know, we're one lone voice I think is depressing wrong and it's certainly not what I hope and expect to see from from. federations around Europe who all of whom I loved UAfA's statement, but back it up with action, not just strongly written words. I just feel that it might just be when Gianni infantino, is up for re election in twenty seven It might might not just be the Brits, the Germans, the Dutch, the Sandies who, as you say, tend to lead the charge here on calling out stuff at FIFA they're not comfortable with I think other people might well say this was a bad day for FIFA wasn't right And it backfired spectacularly. and it shouldn't be swept under the carpet. In other words, people making those decisions should be accountable And I'd like to hope that we haven't heard the last of it. CP, this is a slight roll reversal where you're the sort the idealist, the dreamer, and I'm sort of the one coming in with the bucket of cold water and being the sort of the brutal logical, trying to be logical because I think when it comes to vote, as you say in a couple of years Those national associations around the world will look at the development centers that have been built in their backyards with FIFA money on the back of profits from the World Cup. They will look at the fact that it's now easier for them to qualify for the World Cup And there'll be an element of what of what' FIFA and Infantino done for us, loads of things. and I think Sadly We're stuck with Infantino. and I don't know how we do it, whether we just keep prodding at him, whether the football association, which is possibly going to have to be slightly mindful of hosting FIFA tournaments in the future. They might not want to jeopardize that Women's World Cup events like that It is P money politics, as you say, but this strikes at the heart of the game, the sporting integrity of the game And I think it's It's been a grim episode And well, thank you to the Belggrum players and thank you to Leaku and thank you for giving FIFA a lesson in how the game should be played