Right Sizing Relationships with Wall Tennis

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All vets are in network. Go to fetchpet dot com slash save right now to get your free quote. That's fetchpet dot com slash save What does it mean to become more emotionally secure saafe Stable, calm less reactive more trusting. When we talk about insecurity, we usually talk about it in a pretty narrow way Dating attachment styles, anxious people, avoidant people Ai familiar Thrapy Speak insecurity is obviously bigger than that colors how you move through the world how you deal with uncertainty how you interpret other people How you understand yourself Whatever security means We all clearly want it So if that's true Can people become more secure I'm Seaan E Alllling and this is the grreay area Today's guest is Amir Levine. He's a psychatrist and neuroscientist at Columbia, and the author of a book called Secure, The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure L Levine thinks that we can become more secure and attached to the people around us. and how well or easily we do that has a lot to do with our environment and with the kinds of stories we tell or don't tell about who we are Amir Leine, welcome to the show. Hey, I'm glad to be here You know, this is one of those episodes where I feel like some of my own personersal embarrassing shit will probably come up. so that's a little scary. But you know, these are The things we do Yeah, I think that's probably mine too. I mean, look, you say what are human beings That's right, That's right. And you know, this book It's an extension really of your earlier book on attachment patterns and I feel like We could use a little grounding in those concepts before we dive into the new stuff. So can you just lay out very briefly the three different attachment styles that you identified in your book attached so that we kind of know what we're working with here. Yeah, definitely. So they initially they found those three main attachment styles, anxious, avoidant, and secure and was first discovered in babies But then it was like extended and discovered that we Tu to really have a tasa style until the day we die basically throughout our whole life And the way that it works in adulthood is how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness. That's on one end And then in the other domain is How much of a sensitive radar do we have a potential danger in a relationship So if we love to be close But we're constantly worrying about is the partner available to me? Why are they're not answering my call? What's happening with them? Why did they go Like we feel that the relationships are not like stable then that when we have anxious attachment style U, if we We want to be in a relationship because you'll see like we're human beings, We're highly, highly social species. So we want to be in a relationship relationship But then all of a sudden, once we're in it somethingomething weird happens. you kind of feel, o my God, this person is too close to me. like stay away. And so donon't feel too comfortable with too much closeenness. And then also that translate into this script, a life script that I need to be independent have to be self sufficient So that's't avoid attestment style. So you are in relationships, it's like Keep a measure of distance. So that's avoidant and secure peoplee who love closeness but also are not just sensitive for potential danger. So if you want to take you want to stay away, you want to go and walk on your own, you want to do like Do it on your own. It's fine with them. They're not going to see it as a potential t or the end of the relationship. So these are the secures of this world. This' just warm and loving I have to say there's one more attachment style that's more rare And it's a combination of the anxious and avoidant. It's much more rare and it's called fearful avoidance. So here you really are fantasizing about closeness and wanting relationships But once you get into them You're not like he doesn't feel like you're very sensitive to potential danger in a relationship. So it's not like they're a classic ofod and. it's like, oh, I don't need you all. It's like, no, I need you but also can't do with you. So with one hand, you sayay come close and the other hand, stay away, stay away all the time. So these are the fearful avoidance. Yeah I'm already I'm already seeing myself in a couple of these categles. It's making me uncomfortable. No, but you know it shouldn't really make you uncomfortable. I'll tell you why because We now know and that I didn't know in the other book attached, but now we do know and the science really shows that we can actually have different attachment style with different people. And it's not like a category that we fall into It's a spectrum And I think that's really actually really holds a great promise to it. and that's the whole new book seecure is based on idea that we can all live to learn to live in secure modes. So when we're talking about someone being emotionally or psychologically secure, what is the most important dimension of that? Is it really just about feeling safe or is it more about the absence of anxiety? I think it's more about It's like it's almost like we're a biological species. and there's also in all biological systems There's the the we always try to find a homeostasis between kind like the baseline. Like we like it needs kind of like something. We always like want to there's something that we can come back to that will be like a quad baseline And I think The whole idea of secure can distill it into something very simple because How do we achieve it? How do we get there? It looks like such a toall order It's basically our physiology, our brain looking for a social baseline. a safe baseline So you don't think of these as discrete categories, right? Almost no one is entirely just one of these things. R No no We have manifestations of multiple styles. We do have so in my in the book, I have a new insecure, I have like a new questionnaire. and I specifically I even broadened the scope Um than even things that they have on the research papers because I think and now I'm actually studying it and seeing the results. And then you get a topography, like a map on which they all fall and then you can actually really get a glimpse of your attachment topography. And I use that in secure priming therapy. is the firing shot of the therapy. L you get a glimpse, okay, this is my social world now. this is my attachment now And then it gives you then we build a roadmap to greater security. and I'm pointing down because the lower quadrant is the secure quadrant. That it is. Is it better to think of security in the way you're talking about it as a trait or condition, or is it something way broader than that, like a social environment that allows us to flourish if that's the right word. So I really think it's like it's all of the above. And that's why I structured the book into three parts One part one talks about the secure brain What is there like So I start on the question What does our brain need in order to feel secure? What is the social and really going diving deep into the working of our social brain What is the social brain doesn't like? What makes it feel insecure? So really on that level, and we can find out that many things that we have in our society that we accept as just norms actually don't align with our social brain. So that's one And then there's part two is how to live in secure mode, even if you have insecure attachment styles to learn about, okay, what does it mean if I have this anxious or avoidant or fe avoidant And then how do I Understand my biology to sort of inch towards a more secure mode Then the final part is about The u the secure mind And this I really delve deeper into different ideas that are holding us back from becoming more secure. So that's more like you with yourself and the different ways that you view yourself that actually is holding you back from actually living to your full potential What are some of those ideas that hold people back that make us insecure. Is it' sef doubt sef loathing, self contempt, all the above? All of the above and more. They's like great. No, you know I have a whole I has like some sort of number. So I really go first The onene of the chapters that are like my favorite chapters in the book is chapter ten and about recasting your past from a secure stance And it's really challenging some of our even some of the way that therapy is done today when we people go really look at their past and make these causal links because well, because my parents because they did this or that on this way Um I actually became a scientist after I learned to do psychotherapy. I had like a weird sort of trajectory in my life in which I became a psychiatrist and an adult and a child psychiatist And all of a sudden I pivoted and became a molecular neuroscientist. I didn't even know how to hold up my pet when I walked in there, but somehow I thought it could work And luckily because I had a very secure mentor, it did work. But when I became a scientist, I discovered how hard it is to establish causality And so when I went back to the therapy room, I was like, wait a second, I can't tell someone because as a child, this't this happened to you That's why you're all this way now I can't really prove that. And actually when you look at a lot of the research, you see that it doesn't really hold water and a lot of the change that happens, happens if we actually Change the brain Changange the environment for the brain in the here and now So I really go to great lengths of explaining, you know If that causal inference helps you ine by all means keep it. and I have no problem with that. I see it as a narrative that can really help And there is really a reason why you should actually tellell your childhood, things that have happened to your childhood. and we can talk about what actually I think helps, how it can help. defefinitely not as an immediate cause because what I can tell you what happens. In my in sessions, sometimes patients come and they feel, because this has happened to me, I'm damaged good And that it then I can't change. And that is really not true I was going to get to childhood later, or let's just do it now. I mean, because That is something I have heard. what feels like a thousand times, someome version of the story that Y attachment patterns in adulthood are essentially molded in your childhood and dictated, you know, by family dynamics and that kind of thing. Right? Right. It seems like you there may be some Not that that's entirely wrong, but you think we put too much causal weight on that story That is too neat. I mean, I can give you the numbers. So yeah ye. they've done several studies and the latest one actuallyually really has the most surprising results. They've followed people for thirty years and they know their attachment style when they're kids and then they know their adult attachment styles And they saw, for example, there's very little effect of parental behavior on adult attachment style. For example, they saw that the maternal effect was something around The like it contributed maybe three percent. to your adult attachment style. So you decide for yourself if that's important, like how important that is. And then actually early childhood friendships contributed eleven percent So neither are a lot. I mean, money is like around ten percent, around three percent. But actually in that particular study early friendships were more detrimental to your adult attachment style I think it's pretty fair to say that I've struggled with attachment M of my life as we evolve Yeah I'm feeling better already. I do think I've turned a corner later in life, but it was pretty late in life like in my thirties, you know, And I realizeed you can't do a therapy session here in sixty seconds, but I think this kind of story is pretty common. What is the main danger in getting to attach to a story about who we are or why we are. the way we are because I've got a few different stories I've been telling myself about myself and they're probably of varying degrees of truth. I love that you say that because we do have different narratives and they can all potentially create different outcomes and what attachment styles are in essence Um Balby, who's the father of adult attachment who's the father of attachment in general, he had this idea that attachment is a basic need. food and water. And at the time the whole Fordian school was no, no, no. A attachment happens because the mother gives food and water and like sustenance to the child. So then they attached to her because they learned and he said, no, you actually got it wrong because he actually worked with kids on like Ford. He actually also was during the blitz to saw the displace kidits from London and how they failed to thrive. Even though they were giving the food and the water and everything they needed, but they didn't have their immediate family. So he lived it and he saw that it's just as important as food and water So attachment styles, I sort of deeviated a little bit.'ll go back to the attachment styles. There' a script and U there something that we tell ourselves about ourselves like I can't trust anyone. This is just like me. it's like for every person to themselves or I can't really can't say anything because the relationship would break up or the secure script is like, ye, you know Things happen, this person is upset. tomorrow is a new day. like and The problerom is that our brains are very sophisticated in machinery And so what it does is it actually then looks for signs that will reaffirm the script and ignores other things And part of secure pharmic therapy is to say, no, no, no, no. I can't let you ignore this, this, this or that. Here's some additional evidence in your life. to show you what your secure potential is Uh, you've been ignoring it. And you've been sort of thinking like you're sort of really focusing on that particular script. But it's just one script and we have the ability to hold within us. different scripts. So I call it secure kernels really in secure pubic therapy and in the book So is that what you're doing in therapy with patients, you're helping them rewrite their own scripts It's really the way that I see it And that's why I think I started to with a story about this vacation that I took And when I was a teenager, And I was I went there with my sister and my sister's friend and and her friend's mom And it just I don't know why she agreed. I used to tag along with my sister everywhere. I was ten, she was twelve. Her mom was so secure like she even accepted that I'll go with them and everything went so well and that memory of the vacation really stuck in my head for a really long time And I've been on many vacations since and really amazing places, but that really something that I keep going back to in my memory. And the woman Ruth was very, very secure And I think we all have these relationships and these people in our lives that where gave us the secure kernel. So it's something that we have inside us, not just a script and experience, even when I think about it I feel warmth just thinking about that experience. And many of us have those experiences, but our brain chooses to ignore them or they don't take center stage. And in secure priming therapy, we try to refocus them both in the past And in the present on those secure occurrences and like,h it's almost like summoning out that u that potential that I believe resignes in the vast majority of us Well, that's the thing you know, we are humans are narrative creatures It's sort of our gift and a curse at the same time. We make up stories to explain the world and ourselves And we get attached to those stories we often form an identity around those stories And so like you're saying, when reality contradicts those stories We selectively ignore that because we're so invested in. But if the story you're invested in is making you miserable. You should let it go., mayaybe you're missing out because Like when you told me like something about struggling with attachment issues but we can learn. and it's really simple skills that we can learn to actually Al ligner st better without A thatment logic Support for the show comes from Shopify Whenever you're taking on something new, it's easy to focus on what could go wrong. That's especially true when you're starting a business where so much feels uncertain. But there's another possibility worth considering. What if it works? 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You know, the one thing that helped me as much as anything actually internalizing the The fact noody thinks as much about you as you. Oh yeah. And and if you can let go of that, so many neuroses will melt away. But sometimes it's hard, but that's how you get in your own head. What's going on? What did I do? Why don't whyy don't they like me? You know what I mean? it's your mind can run a muck And that's true The thing is I think so that's why I love so like I've learned so much in this whole process coming up with secure priming therapy and how to help people become more secure becausecause after I wrote attached People started coming to me for therapy, th, okay, how do I become more secure? And I didn't have an immediate answer then because there was just no formal therapy to help people And do that. the whole attachment styles is not part of clinical work in adulthood U And I stumbled on it by chance But I think The way Understanding what ourcial social brain can and cannot take is very important So when you describe Oh, I shouldn't let this person Get to me where they think of me, get to me So there's certain things that we can't help respond to And in the book, I called it the cyberball effect. which is basically a set of experiments that they did to actually see how we respond to social exclusion And these cyible experiments are brilliant body of work that basically it's all rest on one simple experiment where you, Sean are playing a game of catch with two other figures you're throwing the ball, you're tosing the ball with each other and all of a sudden Stop throwing the ball in your direction And then what happens is that when they looked in FMRI, they saw that areas of painful distress and self scrutiny come online Oh. and psychologically They saw that elites to less self esteem, that you're less in control of your life and feeling that life is less meaningful So when I came across this body of knowledge, I was actually stunned because I never thought How much I st life is meaningful or how much control I have over my life or my self esteem is related to how connected I am to others And the other part of those experiments is that they showed how resistant it is to any intervention because they said, you know what, Jhn no I'm going to give you a bunch of money every time the ball is not thrown in your direction. And guess what happened? Nothing happened. You still have the same response. The FMRI lights up just as if you haven't done anything O they they took it a step further and they said Okaykay, these two other players They are members of the KKK And they're thin, okay, these are disticable people. Why would I care if they're including me or not? It doesn't matter to the brain. It still really responds really strongly And so our brain really loads being excluded or being ignored And he was to bring all that stuff up online. and really make us feel miserable. And we can say, I shouldn't let it get to me, I shouldn't let it get to me, but guess what Mm does get to us Why do you think when it comes to how secure we feel How much do those little ordinary social experiences matter, right? Like notot the big traumatic things, but the smaller things, like being ignored or being ghosted or not hearing back from people, right? non responses to that text. R Things that might be trivial in a vacuum and in many ways, but they are. But do they build up over time and really alter our psychology, alter our social brains So I think the way people think about attachment is something like, oh, these deep relationships, but all attachment is really it's like you can think about it as a safety radar It's like really knowing that these people that are important to me are there, and that I'm connected to them And then they fit into the background because they give us the safety and security that we need and we canach we can like really goo and play and have hobbies and work Uh, you can sa it much more easily with kids Um When they like if they you bring them, that's where the attachment styles were found in the strange situation test You bring a child to a room full of toys and immediately, they start playing with all the toys. and every once in a while theyll look at their dad or their mom to see if they're there Um When they're there, they don't care about the moment or doub. They're just continue to play. but Have them leave the room for a moment and that that they drop everything They rushed to the door, they banged, they cried. You give them a toy. They'll throw it in your face So really attachment is a safety mechanism and it depends on those momentary check ins to make sure that that people around us are kind of like there's a thread connects us that that thread when we pull on it, we can feel that it still is connected to someone on the other end That's all that it is We' like the baby that checks every once in a while, we're the same. So we check like with the text or little ways in which we check to see if the other person is connected to us And if they are Stad into the background So that's really the beauty of it. It's like it's really the tiny little interaction that we have We have the opportunity to provide people around us with that feeling of safety. And that really is the basis of living a secure mode or secure attachment. Those micro interactions. why do those little micro interactions you know, being ignored or shunned or whatever Why do they sting so much? I mean, is there something in our brain that's going back to ouract where we were like living in tribes of thirty to forty people and being ostracized was like literally death is it triggering? Is it like going back to that in our brain? It's exactly. So I only understood it when I went on a trip on the Sfari in Africa I was like why is it's so annoying? Would't it be better if we were not that If our brain was like, Hey, relax, dudes. L it's not of. So much better. L most of the time you drive in this vehicle And you can like you know you're not really in any danger. But one time they had us walk outside U Um And without the vehicle, just like we went on a walk. There was this guy in front of us with a rifle and the guy behind us and a rifle and they told us to walk single file and never to open up a gap between us Because like a gap like that between us could mean that they give the predators are watching and they just need to see a little opening in order to sort of swoop in and do their deed. And whenever someone opened a gap, they got behind and was like, hey, close the gap, close the gap. They were so vigilant. So you ask me, that's where because that moment of laps of ignoring That actually feels really dangerous to us because our brain, emotional brain form We were just there in sort of like staying very close meant life over becoming someone's lunch. So that's why the attachment surveys the way that he does. And that's why this small little,, it's like I call it in the book the seemingly ins signignificant minor interactions of everyday life, like Osemis How much they matter for the brain in order to change because if you create u like a series of secure small momentarily things like the checking you can in fact, Creat is like a intntroduce your brain to a secure mode I mean so at the level of the brain, the brain's not making any distinctions here, right? Neurochemically it is responding the same way, whether it's a truly life and death threat or you know, that that friend, you know, not calling you back for three days Yeah, know from the point of view of the brain, it's just like, wait a second, something happened. somethingomething is wrong. And you know thft saying our brains are very much aware. We have a baseline with every person and we're very much aware of it. You can think about it yourself. You know exactly who you should be expecting calls and when and how And the moment it's the radar, the moment it changes The clock starts sticking until, well, what's happening here? Initially it's nothing. It's very small. I'll hear him later. But then he grows and grows. We know, our brain knows maybe part of it me is I don't I don' know the distinction between say an attachment style and a personality type, right? So like A lot of what you describe as insecure or anxious To me, it just sounds like neurosis Right? I mean, is there any difference between being feeling insecure or feeling anxious and just being neurotic or is it just a neurotic person is someone who often feels insecure are anxious. I think there's like these biases like emanating from like Fudian time. sort of that go against people with insecure attachment style and sort of the neurosis that you're describing is the sens sensitivity to environmental cues, right? I find that people with Anxious attachment style, you might say are more neurotic have this amazing ability to see things in the environment and spot environmental cues others just don't have Um And It's almost like a superpar, but they don't know how to control it. So it backfires and they get into trouble That's my view. of anxious attachment or neurosis, like they's not at the immediate link, but ability to spot things in their environment because And actually there's research into that that shows that if you giveive people like a more secure environment They can really flourish I guess my worries that the more we have those kinds of little negative social experiences And you know honestly, my God, this is something I've definitely observed in my own life that the more we The more those things happen the more we start to imagine of fences and slightes where they don't exist Is that a real negative feedback loop So you see in your patience. So what I think is so The other part of it, when I told you about the Suable effect They also did this experiment that's called a reverse cyberball So in that experiment, you can imagine yourself San, you're now standing in the middle. There's someone to your right and they's say, I'm to your left. And then I'm throwing the ball to you And then then you throw it back to me. And then I throw to you again, then you turn to the right and throw it to the person on your right. So the ball always gets thrown to you and you throw it you sort of go between me and the other person. So now you're hyper included and the brain loves that. It just simply' like in seventh heaven. like you feel more self esteem, more sense of control over your life, that life is more meaningful. L that whole area of self scrutiny is really shuts down. there's less inflammation ra If the brain loves something like that, then also it translates to the body too. There's less inflammation, there's more longevity. There's this immense benefit to being hyperincluded So I was really thinking, how do I create that People's lives h And I came up with these five It's like this acronym of five things that are the five pillars of a secure life We say co carp, consistent, available, responsive reliable and predictable And if I can learn to become car And then also Teach others to be carp with me. Um then I can really W you're describing that loop that goes on, you're right. peopleeople can get hyperactivated and then they look for evidence for more of that When you actually create this carp environment really helps the brain settle down over time and then find a way a new baseline that's less hypervigilant Your predictability is an interesting one. You know, I I hear predictable and I think boring I know, that's not really that's not what you're talking about though, right? It's more about not forcing the other person to live in suspense. I mean why does dealing with unpredictable people cost so much stress Not predictable like in the negative ways like o God, this person is so predictable or like in like really in the context of like being consistent, available, responsive, in that context I'm just trying to emulate that effect of the, you know, remember the baby that looks to see if the mom or the father is there so they can continue to play We have the same neur circuitry. So it's just like The whole predictable thing means that if I look for a moment to see if the other person is there, they don't vanish all of a sudden because that really gets us going. And that's where it goes to like Oh, why am I doing this? Did I do something wrong? I must have slighted them. They don't like me. They don't want me. their friend don't like me. all that sef scrutiny. It's just like it's not there So predictable from the point of view of an attachment of keeping those seies, those seemingly insignificant manor interactions in a secure baseline. It doesn't mean you can't throw someone a surprise birthday party or like surprise them with an amazing trip or a gift on all that. by all means, that's fine. It's really in that attachment context of really maintaining that consistence and availability That's so important. it's in the little things becausecause it's a radar system, right This episode is brought to you by Choice Oogy, an original podcast from Charles Schwab Ever wonder why we make the choices we do and how to make smarter ones Join Wharton Professor Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the bestselling book How to Change, as she shares true stories from noble laaureates, authors, athletes, and everyday peopleeople about why we do the things we do and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes Choiceology covers the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard Listen to choiceology at schchwab dot com slash podcast or wherever you listen We're not saying a visit to Bloomington, Indiana will turn you into a forest bathing, sandal wearing dissertation defending streay cat rescuing, nonprofit starting, Monroe Lake paddling, guitar, strumming march, organizing, vinyl listening, Laf watching, Z finding, coffee roasting, yoga practicing, beer drinking, bread, baking co op, joining pottery throwing, vintage thifting bike everywereing arrt appreciating F farmers's market shopping, Biz sinking football fan But we're not saying it won't Visit Boomington See how it inspires you. upport for the show comes from KPMG In any organization, disruption is inevitable, but struggling through it doesn't have to be The KPMG Adaptability Index is your blueprint for building capabilities to handle what comes next It uses real data to look at how your culture, strategy, and partnerships all work together to help your business thrive Stop reacting and start adapting Visit kpmg dot com slash us slash adaptability to explore the Adaptability index and Pulse surveys today The impulse if you're someone who does feel insecure. for whatever reason is to ask Well, why don't I feel secure? But in some ways, is that question leading us in the wrong direction? I mean, do you think it's very often more about the people around us, the environment around us and how that is making us feel or not feel. It That's exactly that. I think what happens is if we don't understand who we are biologically If I don't know, you know I have this superpower that I'm actually sensitive to environmental cues And yes, if this person is not going to respond to me It's going to stay on my mind for a long time and it's going to be hard for me to let it go then It might be better for you to create an environment that I like is enriched. when with secure u secure people. So That's what part of what we do in secure chromic therapy, but oftentimes what happens becausecause of that distrust and self scrutiny, like people with more insecure attachment style or anxious attachment then start to really focus on why isn't there answering? Why are they laughing Are you there? Hello, hey, question mark What's happening? and then like the thoughts that go on And then They forget about the people the secure people that always stakes them back that always show up for them because they're boring. There's no the brain gravitates towards where there's something un soved uil hasn't been solved. part of secure prroming therapy is like, you know what? it's just a shift Instead of looking here where you're like getting what you want You look to the left. So instead of texting what's happening with you,, text the secure person who always texts you back Well, the problem for insecure people is that When you project that insecurity onto other people. It pushes them away which just reinforces The insecurity that started the whole Right. exxactly. You get to this you get into a loop of insecurity Um You're right, But there are little solutions. that you can find And I call it like the two rules of a secure engagement And it really runs deep to like understanding the attachment logic So the first rule is that only one person is allowed to be upset at a time And what it means is and it really lies on this whole idea that secure relationships Help us feel calmer And if we have a problem and we go to someone, let's say something bad happened to you And I'm sure you know exactly you're going to go to and talk to about them. We have an attachment hierarchy in our brain Sometimes for different things, they'll go to different people But if you're securely attached to them Sometimes it just a single word or a hug Will has the power to make you feel betteret right away. There's no clonopin or anax in the world that can come even close to having that effect because we're so inherently social But insecure relationships are also the most prominent instigator of emotional distress So really attachment is the basis of healing and um and suffering suffering and healing from suffering. So in that moment when you're upset with someone, and you get upset then it makes more sense that only one person will be upset at a time and the other person will try to make them feel better. That's what seecure attachment is about U So that's that's the first rule. So then there's the second rule, with the fallback rule which is called the neia Cpor rule which is like it mean now it's my fault. So now If you're both upset, both have to apologize because you broke the covenant of a secure bond. which is we are responsible for each other's emotional well being So now you have to apologize and you apologize about that And oftentimes people get really stuck on I'm right and I need to make an argument that I'm right and you have to accept it. And the other they're like, no, I'm right. I'm going to make. And it really stays stuck on the prefrontal cortex Chatter, chatter, chatter, saying, saying, saying things. But remember that attachment is pre verbal attachment doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong fromrom an attachment logic, you like Things are right if you feel connected. So if you apologize and you can connect Tomorrow you can discuss who's right and who's wrong But I'll tell you what, if you can actually find that emotional resolution No one cares about who's right and who's wrong tomorrow. It's just like a lot of chatters that the prefms for cortex is sort of bringing about and really actually keeping you from the resolution that the attachment needs So if you are trying to be more secure and who doesn't want to be more? secure, Is it more about lookingoo inward and changing yourself in some way or is it more about self knowledge, knowing who you are, what your pathologies and your attachment styles are. And then on the basis of that reorganizing the environment around you so that it doesn't trigger the worst parts of you or is it some combination of So it really is its like it it's a whole practice and that's why like it's a new form of treatment And so the first part is to understand what your social brain is capable of and stop beating yourself up from having that cyable effect. So now for example, if I see that someone at work didnn't include me in something, Th you was just like, Oh, you shouldn't let yourself you shouldn't let it get to you. I said, No, it's okay, it's getting to you because it's the cyall effect because that's how it is. And I can live with that. And then the last component and the last part is really realizing how you can do things in a way that actually doesn't backfire So For example For someone with an anxious attachment, there's something that I call the protest regret cycle So what happens with the protest? Imry prrotest, regret. Yes, cycle. The protest regret cycle. You laash out. You laash out. Then the other person gets like really upset and defensive. And then there's like there's distance thingsings are not going well, then All of a sudden, even though in that moment you lashed out and you're so sure that you're in the right and you're really saying, but now you start to regret it, you want to come close to this person again So you end up apologizing for lashing out, but now the focus is more about you lashing out You never got a chance to actually somehow communicate or find a way to resolve the non carp behavior that started it all. And so you get into this loop of like lastash out then regretting, then apologizing, but never really addressing The sometimes very simple attachment fixes that could have been addressed so, so easily Um And we have those solvable moments everywhere in our life. you tell patients to inventory. the people in their lives and purrage whoever doesn't make the carp cut So that is that a thing So here's the thing. I'm glad that you asked me about that because there's no purging. I mean, first of it's tell me cant. But there is something that I call theres for people who have an anxious attachment style There's a tool that's called Wall tenennis with Love And wall tennis would love, I don't know if you ever played tennis against the wall When I was a kid, I played tennis against the wall. So you practice. So whatever you dish the wall, the wall will return with maybe a tiny less velocity in the same direction It never initiate So In wall tennis with love, what you do is keep the attachment thread going. But you don't initiate too much. So for example, I have a friend that I'm doing Wst tennis with love with because we've been friends for more than twenty years and It's been a difficult I mean, I love him. like I really like we're very connected and it's been, but it's been a very difficult relationship. And there was a year and a half when we never we didn't even speak to each other and then we started talking again. So now you w kindis that love on the wall Like he will text me and you'll say, hi And I'll immediately text back, Hi because I'm the wall, right? and with love. So I'm responding always, never giving in the feeling that there's no one at the other end and being car U A week then goes by, I don't hear anything A week later, I get another hide It's like, youmi it it's like, Hi Two days later calls me I answer the phone, and we have a really nice conversation and it's warm and it's loving If I have something that bothers me that I need to talk to with someone, I'm not going to call him. I'm not going to initiate stuff with him or I'm not going to start texting him because then he oftentimes wouldn't text me back for weeks on end and he would start Tacer Ball effect will sort of kick in. I'm not doing any of that. It's wall tennis with love And it actually saved our relationship. We haven't I haven't felt it as close to him in a long, long time Because in the past, I would text him, I wouldn't hear back. And it would start having this thingsings that you describe, Sean. like what's happening? I see, oh my God, he's texting someone else. Is he ignoring me? I have none of that with W tenennis with love. instead If I do want to initiate someone I do it to thesecure people in my life So I haven't purged him out of my life I right size the relationship and the expectations from it in a way that allows my attachment system to stay quiet, that homeostasis that we like we that we crave in order to be more secure. you really think people can change or that we are not trapped Yeah, Dang you just said that you changed in your thirties and you were able to do more Well, yeah, Amir, but it would have been nice to not have to be almost forty before I did it. I agree. That's why I wrote the book even still. I agree.'s still some of that some of that shit is still there. It course of course I would have certainly would have benefited from all this information when I was much younger, I definitely agree with you. It's not like I'm all that steeped in the therapeutic culture and some of the literature, but I've always felt like ! A lot of it is is too fatalistic, you know, it's like I'm anxious I'm avoiding this is my pattern, my wound, my fate, whatever. And it's all about making peace with that, you know, accepting that. And there's certain wisdom in that, I guess, right? But it doesn't leave enough room for agency. Oh, I'm so glad that you said that because It is all about this combination So when people come to me for therapy, there's always this idea that, oh, there's also this joke, right? If you're make you're gonna make me feel, I'm com to you with all these problems and you're going to convince me that these problems is okay. and that's like how I'm gonna get better. I just have to accept those problems, but you're not really going change me. But actually do this kind of work. You see that acceptance is actually the first step before change happens They're just like accepting something, accepting, okay, this is my biology. this is the animal that I am. Now how do I work with it to actually find a place that's more convenient and that feels good to me And then that's when the change happens Any parting advice for listeners or viewers before we go? You, I think and I mentioned that quote insecure U let's Simon Wel, the the French philosopher She said that attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity Um So in those seies, those small moments giving attention to people I was so touched by that sentence because it really agrees with attachment That's actually a form of generosity And I think that really helped me understand better why we need it so much and how we can really make a difference in the lives of the people around us by