The Decline of Music Hall

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Law Supplies last ends june thirteth turns at aka. mS slash college PC Last time on the Harry Hill Show Hello there, I'm Harry Hill and this is my show. It's the Harry Hill showhow. What's up, Gary? You look like Alabala stole you Hallum Balum. It's my shoe, Daddy. All the other boys are teasing me about my new shoes Well, They are a little flamboyant, Gary, aren't they? Yes, they're a collab between Christian Leabuta and the Danbury Mint. Well, as long as you like them, Gary, that's the main thing. Yes, I love them. I love them so much, they make me want to tap dance. Horay Careful Gary Oh, My shoes Gary, the guest is here Well, in that case, we must welcome our guest Cy Preacher McLean. Thanksome Caryy, McClean. I say McLean, but I'm not that preciious about it. Well it's that joke. You remember too young for crracker Jack, aren't you? I' slightly, yeah. Peter Glaze used to say to Dom Mcleean, McLlean, and he'd say, yes, I had a bath this morning Very good. It Doesn't really work though McLean. Anway, welcome. love did to see you. Really nice to see you. And I'm trying to remember the last time I saw, you may have been on a train. I think it was Yeah, I still feel embarrassed about that. Yeah. Well, it was weird because We were And we have we have met a number of times before you know, around the clubs, doing the gigs And we were on a train and I looked over and basically it was the The table next to us, me and my tour manager, we were on the way to I don't know call it for somewhere Glasow Glasgow, Yes, always get those two mixed up. Whays ago. I And I looked over and there you were, I thought,, that's a curary Pard McLan. and you're on the phone, but you were talking Welsh, you all that. and I said to the two measures Kiry. and he's going we're both sort looking over. and you're very animated on the phone. don't. And you're know banded from Wales,. It's been over fed know, they're very touchy. And so I texted, I think I texted. You texted me. Yeah. I was sort of we was trying to say Kiri like that sort of to attract your attention, but you weren't responding to that So I texted you It' something like. Where did they put? You said, Are you on a train speaking Welsh And I looked around and you were sat opposite me and I hadn't noticed. I know. Be I've been so engrossed because I'm not a first language Wels speaker, have to really concentrate. Well It seemed very convincing to me. It did. I would just go, Harry Hill keeps staring at me and he's sat on the table opposite me and I'm trying to ignore him. That's what I was saying in Welsh. Yeah, probably And and I was just listening, I was saying earlier that I was very moved by something that you did on the radio, which is why I kind of got in touch with you Be you were doing a thing on radio four about what was it? It's kind of where you go for a walk in the countryside and they ask you about your relationship with nature. They've let all the studios go that's well. So now you just have to keep on the move. so you don't have to pay any location fees. Yeah. Yeah. So with Martha Carney, I think it was. Right. Yeah. And what you were talking about living in Angles City? Yeah and about how you were fostering ren was just something just really sweet about. And I thought, gosh, I didn' had no idea that she was so nice. Be it doesn't come across when you she'd been so mean to me. Ly Oh dear.icky the Harry Oh no masot It's Licky the had a j Harry Mascot he's coming in for a little. Just with my foster carer. How Mind the hair. mind the hair, she's taking ages on that. G Gone. G back to your quarters I hope he's got a DBS because just with my We never got the results of that DBS Pnding. Yeah, so so still you live on a farm in Anglesy. Yeah. so I grew up on Anglesy, and then I moved back yeah, about twenty twenty. and yeah, Ive live on a farm in the middle of kind of nowhere and I love it. D diffifficult to get geeks though isn't entirely practical. It is. Sometimes you have to sit on a train all the way to Glasgow. And is it true that the dating and I've got a thought of a joke, that the dating app on Angle C is Angle Grinder. 's Ver good. Really good stuff. Yeahah. Interestingly, if you are on dating app to where I'm from, quite often you get paired it with people from Dublin and the Isle of Man. Be it' It's close It's closer, I suppose. closer yeah than you know, becausecause you' got to set your pyimid is quite wide, othertherwise is immediate family. So it's yeah, so youve gott to start fishing aroundound Ireland. Yeah. But how does your partner feel about that? We're very modern. Yeah, we're foster parents and swingers Fus to swingers Am So listen, how do you feel about AI Guinely Yes. genuinely. I feel very unsettled by it and and don't really use it at all. No. And I've got some friends who are in kind of kind of deep relationships with Chat GBT and use them like therapists and I find it quite chilling. Yeah. Yeah. Well a lot of the time you don't know you're using it, I think. Yes, that's the other thing is I feel like it's stealth moved into things. However, I think hereere's the problem I think when it's used in things like medicine, so like MIA it scans like results of masectomies and can get much quicker results. You still have to obviously have to have a consultants check it, but it can really streamline things But we're not using it for that. We're just like being like where should I go on holiday and using huge amounts of energy And I think we shouldn't be allowed it. I think intelligent people. with important job should? So But do you think that the consultants, you know, they're looking at the results from Mia and then they're going booking a holiday They earn that holiday. Yeah, but it will be to a left breast. like that's the only information they've got from that. Yeah. Well, we have got an AI bot. Okay. Yes, so I'm a bit nervous about introducing it. Sarah, the AI bot who's going to tell us a little bit about you. Can I be cheeky? canan I make a request? Hly unorthodox, but It's only because on my way over here, I saw a primary school playground full of children right. re doing the Andy Burnham. Oh yeah they're all doing it. And obviously it would make me cool with the kids that come and stay with me If I got to do the Annaera does. We've made a bit of a rod for our own back with this thing. It's become bigger than the podcast But yeah, as it's you, Kary, come on, let's do the Andy Burnham One, two, a one, two, three, go. Cap your hands Rrow a chair Pel the person it Iy in your trouses Sve the greens. Strangle the fox. Pipe the buttercream. Stub your toe. Ccel your Netflix. Andy Burnam That felt really good. Yeah. That felt so good. Yeah, you're good at that. I was having an out of body experience. I wasort watching myself do it. Yeah No, you're good at that. Not everyone gets it. Should we get Sar out? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, Cing out, Sarah, H she comes. She rreustles while she wals Lets say hello to Kiri Hey Hory, great to meet you. Big fan. Love all things Welsh. Got nothing but good things to say about the Welsh. 'use I don't want them to burn down my holiday home in Flanvia Put Gwingith Gog Erraqu and Robbutlantasilogogog. Ohretty good. Die out. That was very good. Yeah Um, Yeah, I mean the Welsh are a bit u Wh where that come from W' the Where does that come from there? I think maybe the Welsh kn. It's got something to do with it? That they were in What's the Welsh not? Very English of me to ask So They don't teach us this stuff at schools, they? So essentially a group of three English academics came and sort of investigated the Welsh and then said, o they're a very thick uncivilized nation And is all the women were quite loose So they were right in some respects. And then they said because they tested the children. they said they're far below the English children in attertainment, but they tested the children in English and the children didn't speak English. So they introduced a thing called the Welsh knot. And so if you caught speaking Welsh in school, you'd have to wear this sort of block of wood around your neck and then whoever was wearing it at the end of the day was beaten Good heavens. So So we are a bit touchy.. When did this happen? It was still happening when my grandparents up until the forties, Yeah my grandparent. Oh in the forties right. Okay. Well, may I take this opportunity to apologise? Yeah. goodood. Sarah, you're gonna tell us a bit about Kiri. Okay, here it goes Hiri Louise Pritchard McClean is a Welsh comedian and wr establed. She has performed for several consecutive years at the Edinburgh Festival frringe and won five Chortel Awards. Early life Jwn in Glceser Is? So you not Welsh. Pritchard McCleean was the first daughter and last Ja J in Glossy. She was raised on a farm in Lambedagogue, on the island of Anglessey Wellales That's not bad.ot bad. so it's not five Chortles. I think it's more, I think it's actually seven now. I think you know it's seven. No, I don't actually, because also once you get pz five, you stop acc counting, don't you? But I know it's more than that. You might have won one, you know while you're here or in transit. impending You never know that lot. Chortle by the way is a sort of comedy website, is it Yes? Not real awards, I would argue It's just for sort of comedians, I think, really reason it to look at. I see how many awards they've won. But you say you were born So what happened here? So you're born in Gloucester, your family weren't farmers then So well, the whole story is I was born in Gloucester and then when I was eight months old, my father was relocated with his job to North Wales And so what did he do? He worked I'm going to be vague because I'm going to be not nice about who he worked for, but he worked for an animal welfare charity and then he moved him And his very young family to this house that had like no indoor bathroom and things, and then they sacked him a few weeks later. Yeah, so my mum who had been doing a bit of farming on the side was like, okay, well we'll start a farm. Right That's what she did. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah.. And so then and so you and that was to Angllesy and that is Is it an island? It is an island. It. Two bridges, desperate for a third, as you know, big talking point on the island, the third bridge. Yes ye you only need one to go in one to come out, don't you? whyy you need the third one? Because often the old one is just turn two hundred this year is closed. because it needs repairs and or you know high winds, etcetera. So then you've only got one route on and off, and we've obviously got the Irish fairies. You know all this stuff. this is fascinating. This is stuff we don't We don't hear about really. Okay, great. How many in the family? I'm one of three, the youngest of three. twowo brothers And what are they farmers or Well, they're older I mean there's an age gap of seven and nine years. So you're the baby? Yes, I'm the baby and' the only girl, which means I can cry on demand. And my brothers are both in teaching. it goes to the family. So you're taking over the family farm essentially, are you? Yeah, well, yeah, me and actually my eldest brother started working on a permaculture farm T about yeah, so kind of regenerative farming. So what's permaculture? Permmaculture is basically a principle of farming where it's about like nourishing the community in the land and not just extracting. So there's twelve principles, core principles to it. Yeah, it's quite sort of like hippy hippy farming Right Commy farming. Do it involve burning your own effluence? Yeah Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, cooking on methane from your own France. Absolutely. I think we all started doing that during the pandemic. It's a very difficult habit to kick Burning your own effluence. Sarah, have we got anything further to add about friend Kire? Not sure how she got into a stand up Information is Fanty. Rrichard McClean is the director and writer for Sketch Group Gimess Family E on who were nominated for Best Newcomer in twenty fourteen for the Edinburgh Comedy Award. Rrichard McClean done haveave I gotot News for you? One of Russell Howard's thingsings, She done? Hypothetical and cats do countdown. Would I lie to you and multiple appearances on radio four Is that fair? ye, yeah, I think that's quite fair. Yeah. I mean, I since have another sketch group called Tarot. What happened to Gin's familyamily's gift shop, they?? No, we sort of disbanded and some of us went and joined another sketch group called Goose, who I think you know goose. Oh, I've heard of goose. Yeah Goose And some of Gaines came together to make Tarot, basically. So super group. Super sketch group. Yeah. And where do you do these? Well Tricky isn't it being in a sketch grou It is, In fact, the last thing my partner said to me was ask him why he didn't pook Tara for his Harry Hill comedy C night on TV Yeah, I didn't like, I don't really like sketch. That's fine Yeah. Mbe okay. Yeah. Tell him that No, I mean, not I don't remember that. There were some tryouts at the moth, weren't? There were, yeah. It'soth Cub It's hard to sketch is a young man's game. It's when you So is this la? So Yeah. You try this sixty one years old. Is how old you are You look good on it, don't you? Well, you know. What SPF are you using? comeome on I just well I just my moisturizing regime. Yeah. I just, you know, I start with a double cleanse. notothing fancy, you know, I use an oil base but emulsifying balm Followed by sulfate free foaming cleanser then move on to a ace you know, this phace tonic of beta hydroxy acids combined to really clear out the congested pores and followed by alpha hydroxy acid to increased radiance, then I don't know you I use a Korean style hydrating essence. Oh nice. Yeah. know they're pack full of multiolecular humectants, like I don't know polygreatamic an hyuronic acid Um and I protject my skin barrier. Mike most people with ceramides peptpeackoncclusive gel base And And then I prevent damage from both UVA and UVB with a broad spectrum sunscreen of at least For thirty. Yeah, That's absolutely immaculate as a skincare routine. And'' in a hurry, then one quick w with the flannel I. The it Mamage, the masty one, the masty f Don't remember, C' breathe. hurt to me. And Sorry, Cury, would you excuse me for a moment? Of course Slfie gires.. Yeah anyone wants selfie. That's it, Hopy. Got it. So that's a pound. Oh ye.ust the thing. Oh Sorry about that just. that problem. Right, Sarah, do you want to say anything further about Kire? She is also co host of the podcast All Killer No Filler with Rachel Fairburn. Her half hour radio stand up show Kire Prichchard McLlean. Eistential crisis was on BBC Radio four. She was awarded the Carolina Hearne bursary Pritichard McClean will also receive mentorship from a BBC comedy commissioning editor to develop a comedy script Pritichard McClean and her partner are Respite Foster parents in Anglesy. Her peacock tour was based on this. That's it. You're up to date with Kiri Preetie Patel. she's dropped you at twwigs Hry. Oh, that's nice U I can't eat it. Oh. Vs in't it She's a vegan, Sarah Crying out loud, do your research. Yeah, we had a similar problem with Deborah Meen She she vegan? She's plant based. She can't say she's ve apparently because she eats skin Right. Oh blood drinks blood. So this was good, wasn't it? This Carolina her anniversary. Yes. Did you ever meet Carolinea? No, I really wish I had. What an incredible incredible talent. Yeah. But she was she was only met her a few times, but she was quite naughty. She was sort of trouble I love that though. Yeah.'s what I mean, she had a real twinkle I had this I mean, I don't know if I should tell this story, but I was I was trying to impress a girl This is before I was married long before I was married and found my soulmate and life partner Hi Darling, if you're watching, she won't be And So I took her to the up the creek. Yeah, right. And we get because Caroline was on doing a nun act. Sister Mary Imaculate, ye And it was like a really weird night. and you remember Jimbo No. was just U odd Sometimes it he would be absolutely it would kill it, you know, absolutely kill it. Other nights hed just absolutely die the worst possible death And that night he had this it was a cuddlely toy dog. He had tied to the mic stand and he was feeding it dog food Wet or dry wet have a tin and then he was started eating it himself. and it was just horrible and he was gagging And actually afterwards I said some Is that, you know, what would you put in the tins? It's chew. He said, No, it's dog food. And I thought, well, why wouldn't you bit sy It make us think it was dog food, but it's not really dog food. It's like an awful night and you know some nights there it could be a bit o couldn't it peopleort a bit lerry. we get a taxi back and I gave Caroline a lift in the cab as well. There' the three of us in the cab And she's going to me, So you two are you w Are you going to be staying in the same bedroom Really? Really uncomfortable. Yeah Yeah, she's good Are you one of them reality TV stars? famamous in the nineties stroke early two thousands? if you don't like it, switch. Such as Tabby Callaghan. Allan Twitchmart. Liz Thrash, or David Bowie. Sorry, not David Bowie. Jennifer Aniston? No. Raxu. Yes. That's right. Raxu. U to living high on the hog, but work not coming in quite like it was. You've been in the jungle? Dumb strictly. Celebrity cash phrase, Sipping point, Celebrity pointless. And your agent keeps asking about traitors, but they're ignoring her calls. You are a victim of the fame surplus. There's simply not enough, celeb based shows to go round for everyone to w on the tey. Well turn that famous face into instant cash with the new selfie board from Regency Innovations. Simply draw around your face. Pay your subscription to receive a coupon, which then unlocks a link to a QR code It takes you to our interactive website. Uload your face size, small, medium, or Winston Churchill, and for the cost ofers who re save anytim they return with Senior Rail car, you'll receive your selfie board made from durable corrugated cardboard with a bespoke laser cut hold that fits your face exactly. Wander around affluent areas like the deli couounter in Waitress, Car park of the Wine Bar, Paul Burllls Loft, or Paul Murll's Motor caraveay And watch your Inome sore. Beat the Fame surplace with a selfie board also available in Spam, black Spam, and Cnbee flavourors. By one selfie board and get a set of free stick on Andy Burner eyebrows. Absolutely free. A can of Vverbal incontinence magic Putty and a Peter Mandelson cuckoo crock absolutely free. Absolutely free Wning may have no effect whatsoever. Sorry, fame is the mask that des your own face. Regency innovations Pince the interventions in an uncaring world.. It's time for a theme of the week. Music ha. Music haall and we're joined by our expert who is Oliver Dubble Reader of Cic and popular performance at the University of Kent. Absolutely. Full disclosure. I know you and so does Kire. Yeah We're sort of friends. I think we have a very strange connection though. So yeah, you were my well you explain how each other. You didn't fost Kiring, did you This is my eldest.. They grow up so quickly. So yeah K used to teach stand up but there used to be a comedy course at University of Salford and I was the external examiner So I saw her feedback to her students and it was amazing It was so good. Well incredibly supported dat out and individualized. It was. So you would go in what were you looking for? I mean, isn't it as simple as You know, how funny are you? No, because it's not is it? It's more, you know, you can see someone having well we all know we can see a bad comedian having a good gig and we can see a good comedian having a bad gig. And you know, you'd mark them on things like ambitious they were with their material, had they used things like their voice movement? Did it feel like the first punchline? Had they pushed it past that? you know? So there's lots of feedback you can give, I think. Okay. And I think there was really specific stuff about like this gag would work well in this But not, if you tried it here, it just wouldn't work, that kind of thing, which is actually like way beyond what somebody' starting out would normally be able to access that knowledge It was great. Good. Now Yeah, I recognise that we would down a cool the, but you've stop driving. You've put all that behind you for today to talk about musical. I have a love of the idea of musical, but I'm not sure I know much about the specifics of it. What is music Hall? So Music Hall was a popular entertainment form that started in the mid nineteenth century and it was sort of the predominant form of popular entertainment right through to really the nineteen fifties, and it sort of its sort of staggered on into the early sixties Right, so what did we have before music all then Well, before Music Hall, there were a bunch of different things. Yeah one Brown's vo B was exactly Well Fullily enough, there were some very crude and bardy shows called Song and Supper Rooms where they had genuinely naughty lyrics I mean there I've got a book here Baarddy songs of the early music hall Briant T Okay, if I just get my glasses out, I can read you a sample lyric And I I love, o how I love to ride, My hot my wheedling coaxing bride Wow. G rice May. Pretty on the nose. And the bride presumably isn't the name of the horse. No. And also what's quite interesting about the songs is it's not just about male sexual pleasure, either, it's like the women like it as much as the men in those songs. Well let's hear one of those.. You're a feminist, I love that. Absolutely. So it's the mid nineteenth century. Yeah. so what's starts happened is that you have these song clubs where people sing songs, right? And they sit around a table And they take it in terms there's a chairman who sort of calls them up to sing and they would, you know take it in turns. And apparently they could be quite rough. you know if people didn't like it, they would throw star. So there was an audience. Well yeah, what started to happen was instead of just being the singers, people would come along to watch and then eventually it changes so that people are actually on a little stage and it's much more like a kind of show But initially audiences sat r tables eating and drinking in a pub. Well, yeah, initially in a pub. and then in the eighteen fifties you start to get purpose built music halls. So the first one was the Canterbury music haall. In Canterbury. Not in Canterbury in London, strangely. They were playing a trick with with. there was a guy called Charles Morton started it. And then they gradually as it became more popular, very, very quickly You know you start to get hundreds of these things around London and then around the rest of the UK And as it starts to grow, the theaters gradually change shape. So Wiltonons in London would be an example of one from the eighteen seventies. And not many of those buildings survived. And then examples of ones later than that would include the Hackney Empire opened in nineteen oh one and the London Palladium, which opened in nineteen ten Right, But yeah, I mean, have you played Wiltons, Kirary? No I haven't. I played the others. Is it kind of Frank Matcham theaters? Yeah abbsolutely Frank Matcham was one of the o not Wilton'sough was it Wilton's is a Frank Matchsin. I know. I mean, Wiltononss is a very odd thing I mean, isn't it like the last musical? Yeah of that of that era. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Because actually it's like a terracist house, isn't it? I think he bought two terrac house, knocked them together and then extended it out the back. very yeah, you should go It's really good. Anyone actually who hasn't been to W it's worth a visit? Yeah, I saw Roy Hood in Pantamine why? And it was superb. Well he wasn't he the president of the musical? He was. He was president of the British Musical Society, and could I just say Join that if you're interested. It's so good. and all you need to do is go to the British Music Hall' Cciety website and it'll tell you all about how to join. Yeah. Well I had a rather unfortunate association with the British musical Or an event that happened. Roy, I knew Roy a bit. Yeah And he was great fun. And he inv he was giving I had this old warm up man called Bobby Bragg, you know, Matt Bragg. Yeah. hisis dad. So Bobby Bragg was used to do all the warm upps for TV books. And and and I knew he was a friend of Roy's and I said, I'd love to meet, you know, Roy So we went out for but Bobby was very ill. you know, he got very ill. And anyway, the three of us went out. And I said to Roy, I said, Oh by the way, Roy, this is on me. He goes, Oh, he goes, well. He goes, I'm a diabetic and he's got cancer. This's going to be a cheap bill. Anyway, he said, Oh will you come along and present Bobby with this award from the Musical Society? goo there. And I've been to some like the comedy hereritage things. I' been to those Have you been to those? They're quite old. People there are quite old, but the British Musical Society, they're old And they' really really Oh, I mean, there's a lot of I think they're looking for younger members actually after say. rightight? So I go on And we're on like a raised thing. There's a table there It's me, Roy, Bobby and then there's there's some other dignitaries of the already old And I go and I say, Well thank you. he hands over to me and I go It's great to be here at the Dignityas reunion dinner. Nothing. Nothing. okay. And then I carry on a bit and then the boke on the end fell off. yeah, fell off the stage. everyveryone goes. And then I'm like, what do I do? Carry on, no one moved. and in the end someone got up and sort of helped him back up. but it was like, really, I mean really yeah So that's my It's nots are great. Yes, I'm sure it'. I mean you know, as a kid, I used to love watching that the good oldays. The good old days indeed. city varet. city varieties, exactly. Oh I love that place So I mean, you could think of music hall as a precursor to both stand up comedy and pop music, but kind of joined because in the kind of classic sort of Victorian music hall, The main there are lots of different types of action. You could get performing elephants, anything. but But the main type of app would be a comed singer and they'd known as a comedian and they would do a song. So you'd probably know some music hall songs. Oh, I do like to be beside the seaside. That's a music hall song by Mark Sheridan. or down at the old Bullen Bh. that was Florry Ford. And so a lot of these songs we've remembered. In fact, the revers is to do like to be beside the seaside. Nobody knows. The bit we know is just the chorus. Right. And yeah a lot of them are like that, aren't there? Yeah. My nan used to sing one which I always really love called Oo Antonio, do you know that? Yeah, I do. yeah I think is that Mary Lloyd or I think that might be Florry Ford as well. Flurry Ford. Yeahah. Oh Antonio. He's gone away. L me on myono all Aono. I'd like to see him I don know and his new sweetheart because off we go Antonio and his ice cream car It's an ice cream man Yeah, and I think I think I'll right and say that up would go Antonio because I think she'ss I think she's turning his cart over in revenge for him. Oh there' up with somebody. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And so who are some of the comedians that we've Well, there was a comedian called Little Titch. I've got my shirt. Oh yeah. So littleittle Titch was from Kent. it was from Cudham And he was a very small person and he had an extra finger on each hand Wow. He's very self conscious about it. So might start right there. Well, yeah, he was very self conscious about it. If you see photos of him, he's often got his hands hidden. Yeah. But he he's wearing mittens for mister Titch. Yeah indeed. Mittens would have been the ideal handwear. But yeah, always thinking about the merch. I like that. Yeah, He well you could get a little you could get a little wind up little titch. you could get a little kind of wind up model that it would do that because he was famous for this big boot dance where he had these long boots and he would sort of tap dance on them and he could sort of lean unlikely anglely. It was the length of the feet. Yeah. That's right. Have you seen? No yeah. There's a famous film of it made in nineteen hundred where he does this dance and it's just amazing Be he goes up on them He goes up on them like still. So it's probably very dangerous and quite painful to do. But here's where we get the word titch from Oh my gosh. Yeah, abbsolutely. So he was named after a famous sort of Victorian con man who was the Titchborne cllaimant, who claimed to be the long lost son of this rich Victorian family, evenven though they didn't look nothing like this guy. And famously, the Tichchborne cllaimant was a large man. So he called himself when he started off littleittle Ted because it was quite funny the idea of him being littleittle Tch And yeah, originally littleittle Titchborn goes down to littleittle Titch. and then within his own lifetime, he'd given a word to the English language. that's how popular he was. I the bits I know of musical hall, which isn't a lot, When I've had it sort of portrayed to me is that it was an area where actually women were well represented and sort of dooy in. I'm so glad you raised that. Yeah. So Mari Lloyd was one of the biggest comedians of the music hall at very, very saucy. My old manan said Follow the van, that was one of hers. And the songs were always full of innuendo U and she's always she's always kind of comes out on top And then later in life, she was that innuendo That was very good. Tards the end of her life. She had a song called onene of the Ruins that Cromwell knocked about a bit and it fitted the fact that she'd become middle aged. like she had to change her persona in a way. Right. And when she died, you know, I mean, like thousands of people lined the streets of London to say their final farewell to her. But another great woman from the music hall was Vesta Tilly. who was a male impersonator And she was so popular. that she influenced my old fashions Men would go along and check out her trousers and whver And she appeared at the first ever Royal Variety show in nineteen twelve Apparently, the idea of a woman in trousers was so shocking to Queen Mary that she hid her face behind her program. Yeah Yeah, and that was tough because if you in the Royal Variety showow right into the mid twentieth century, Apparently it was a really tough audience because they listened to I was gonna to say it' ninety seven nineteen ninety seven, It wasn't easy. All right, but did they do this? Because apparently this is what they used to do. They'd watch the royal box and'd only laugh if they laughed. Well I did it, I mean against my better judgment. I was on with the sppice girls. Wow. What a double bit. Did you do a numberble with? I went on with them. That would be great If you had got on with them, which soong would you have done? Uh, I probably would have done u I do like to be beside the seand. No, but I did so I was on with the sppice goes. Jim Davidson. This Yeah, Jim Davidson. What's his face? Connelly? Brian Connlly? ye And And Michael Bolton, I think Wow. Yeah And I went on, it was really tough. And I was you were very aware of the quQeen up there in the it was the quQueen. I come off and as I go off I walk past, Des Economy was hosting, I walk past Jim Davidson and I said He said, how did it look? And he goes It looked fine Oh Oh no! Yeah, it was like, you know, cold sweat. So these are like actually, can us tellell you about another woman. There was an amazing woman called Nelly Wallace and she played a kind of old maid type. so she plays a kind of woman who looks grotesque. She's always interested in Romantic adventures with men, That's the basic comedy. And she had there's a live recording of her from late in her career. and it's quite rare to have recordings of these people with an audience. And she's really funny. Oh really. Yeah, And she does one of the things they would do is and Dan Leno pioneered this style is that the song becomes less important. The song is just a little bit at the beginning and then you stop and you do like three minutes of gags and then you do the end chorth. She just one of those And she does this whole thing about how U have father was ill in bed or something and they recommended a trip to the seaside but they couldn't afford it. So he'd stayed in bed and they found him with a kipper. Rightrect. see, I think that's the same basic comedic DNA as you've got. Yeah, possibly. Although I wouldn't open with it Yeah. It killed in nineteen forty eight. I'll tell you that. Well see, Dan Lino's a name that comes up a lot, isn't it I mean, Roy Harbood would be going Danina. Well he was known as the funniest man on eararth But do we have any, you know, is there any recordings? any scripts or Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things a bit like pop You know, when we were young, you know, Pop you'd buy a single. Well what you would do then was buy a song sheets. So there are lots of song sheets of Danlino songs that they have the pattern written into them as well. Oh do they? Yeah, But there were also quite a lot of recordings. There's enough for an album of recordings that would have been released on seventy eight. and he is you know, he was identified by somebody who worked with him as being the person who did the most to sort of shift the center of gravity from song to patter. So you could argue that he's one of the progenitors of stand upp comedy And But what's really tricky is because he died in the very early years of the twentieth century. So it wasn't possible to record him with an audience. So it kind of sounds weird because you hear this very crackly recording of somebody saying these really weird old jokes and no response. And he himself because at that point you couldn't record like with one of these, he couldn't record ronically, it was like a mechanical process. So basically you had to put your face into a funnel And he said, how the hell can I be funny into a funnel? Which is a fair question. Yeah ye U And so then what so you say ended in the sort of fifties Yeah, so it changed quite a lot in the early years of the twentieth century. and one of the reasons was because youn't the licensing laws changed and what that meant was that you couldn't serve alcohol within the auditorium in most cases. So that meant that the wet money, as they called it, the money that came from drink sales, massively descended, right? Oh, I know that phrase. I used to work in a comedy club and the wet spend. Is there spend is thrown around and it made me feel ill every time anyone said it So So what they did was instead of having a show that in the Victorian era, the shows would be long And they would advertise when each act was on because people wouldn't necessarily go for the whole night. They would go to see this person or that person. But then they changed it because they needed to make more money on ticket sales. So they changed from being these one long show to twice nightly So they would do the same shows twice a night. six nights, so twelve shows in a week And it maximized the money that could be taken on the door. But also what around the same time, it started to move from it being just these comic singers being the vast majority of the acts to being more of a mixed bill. So you'd get dancers and performing animals and magicians and petriloquists and speciality acts, some of which were very weird. So I wrote this book, Britain had Tent about variety And've got I've got what's the difference between variety and Well, they're really kind of It really marks I mean they're both the terms it's complicated because the terms are interchangeable really. but normally when you say music hall, you mean the early tradition. and Once it goes to twice nightly, people normally talk about variety, but both terms were used really throughout the history It strikes me then with those sort of speciality acts. To me, it sounds a bit more like when I hear people talking about the start of alternative comedy and there are lots of sort of almost circusy acts the guy with a block of ice and stuff like that. Yeah Yeah, the Iice manan. I mean, I've also sort of written about that era as well. and what happened? one of the kind of influences on that with street performers and they brought a lot of that stuff into it like, you know, comedy escapologists and things. would be hung upside down and everything would fall out of their pockets, that kind of thing. But yeah, there was there was an act called Henry Vaden whoose act was he wore a helmet with a spike on And they would drop a massive wooden cartweheel and it would fall onto the spike and then he would spin it around. Right. And presumably there were some buildups said absolutely, but also imagine doing that for twelve times a week. Yeah. You'd be shorter at the end of the week than at the beginning. But remember Bob Blackman? you remember Yeah used to smash the train on the train? Yeah ye, yeah, yeah, yeah ex Mule train. Yeah. Jimmy Tarbuck namro told me a story about him, right He's on tour with Stop me if I've told you this. He' is on tour with Bob Blackman and Bob says so every night he just come out doing mule training himself over the He says to Jimmy, I'll got a new bit tonight He says, W you stand in the wings and watch So Jimmy stands in the wings and you he comes on this mule train, smashes himself over the head with a tray And then the last one, he leans into the audience and smashes over the head of someone in the front row who gets up and punches him in the face. So what killed it off Well Kelly, so yeah, that was a huge factor. I think there were a bunch of different things. I think one thing was that there was demographic shift. So the kind of population, the Glasgow Empire was one of the most famous or infamous known as the graveyard of English comics. Yeah particularly if you were there second house on a Friday night where people have been at work for the week and then been out to the pub and had a few inside them hated the English. You know, they just I mean D a kind of famously fake to fint to avoid facing the audience at the Glasgow Empire. But the point is the Glasgow Empire was in Sockey Hall Street in Central Glasgow. And so all the people who lived in Central Glasgow in working class communities So once Glasgow was being developed and they started moving those people out to the new towns, the sort satellite towns of Glasgow, suddenly, people can't get to it, can't get home afterwards So that was a huge thing. Also kind of real estate prices in towns heads were going up, so it was worth selling the theaters off Also, yeah, the tey was a huge thing because if you could when ITV launched in nineteen fifty five One big flagship shows compared by Tommy Trinder was Sunday night at the London Palladium. Well if you can see the best variety acts in the world for free on your tey on a Sunday night, why do you want to go to the Leeds Empire and see a much lesser bill for money? Wh the theatre is peeling a bit And you know, the acts aren't quite as good So yeah, it was a bunch of factors really, but it disappeared, you know, it hadd been around for a centy and it disappeared within about a period of ten years. W Yeah. But in a way like the alternative cabre thing mirrors that doesnesn't it? Becauseuse it starts in pubs and Yeah. abbsolutely. And I think, you know, one of the things that helped alternative comedy to spread in the eighties was Cast New Variety. Yeah. It was a sort of left wing theatre company thatort repurposed itself as a promoter of this new entertainment. and it it was called New Variety consciously. And they they ran the Hckney Empire. Yeah, they brought the Hackckney Empire back as a theatre because it shut down in the fifties. It was initially a TV studio and then a bingo haul for years and years And this bunch of trots, this amazing bunch of eccentrics Dave managed to bring it back. It's a fantastic achievement. Wow. Great. Well, look, thanks so much, Oliive. do you want to plug those books again? I absolutely do. Look at this. Look at that. You can't argue with it. Britain had talent. Britain had talent. That looks really good. We can get that. And what was the other one you said? Well, this bdy songs of the early music hall I'd like to borrow that Yeah Super, An anything? I well, and I So how do I explain this? So my nine, so that's Welsh my grandma. Yeah had lots of brothers and sisters. and one of the sisters was in musical ha and was a comedian. Wow but died in her twenties of TB So like that's because people always go, you know, whereere's it from? And then suddenly relatives mentioned, o, of course you know, your ninine sister was a comedian at the time. Well, one of the things is I mean the people who were the big stars made enormous amounts of money, but there were a lot of people who were not big stars who were really exploited. And in fact, in nineteen oh seven there What's called the musical War It was a strike And there's one of the theories about why Mari Lloyd was one of the only big stars who wasn't invited to be in that first Royal Variety performance in nineteen twelve was because she'd been so active in that. in that story John Major's dad was also active in that strike Yeah because he was a music haulw comedian That's mad. It's amazing. But I love it because one of the reasons when I'm on stage I always wear sequins and I always dress up and part of it is trying to do a head nod to that kind of world and I love playing those venues. There's quite a funny thing that they would they really looked after their costumes and famously there was a booker for Moss Empires, one of the big chains, Cissy Williams who wouldn't book an act if they had dirty shoes, right? But there's a thing that they wouldn't if you're wearing it like a suit If that was your thing that you wouldn't sit down in that, neverever sit down in the props. You take take them off in the break. wear a dress out or something. That was a funny thing about that Rw variety. So I'm in the same dressing room as I had this there was a kind of ventrloquist bloat with a bird And there's the Russian strongman And there was, you know, Brian Connlly you because there's not enough And and all these all those acts, all the acts from sort of the generation before me They all had dress shoes. Yes. Yeah patent at the dress shoes. you know, I didn't Can I tell you about a strong woman . No, no. Her name was Joan Rhodes. and I interviewed her. She was eighty nine years old and she was fantastic. Her act She wears like a spangly bask and fish nets and massive heels and like blonde and, you know, incredibly glam. And she comes out onto a song called Sweet and loveovely. And every thinks this is going to be a stripper, but no, she challenges men in the audience to feats of strength defeats them in, you know, Tug of war, like two or three men on each arm. And She tears a London phone book in half and she bends a steel bar around her knee or a neck And she was a remarkable person. She also beat me at Scrabble that after. But that's another story. Thanks so much, Oliver. Really good to talk you. good. than. Yeah, thanks. That was our theme of the week. show It's time for nameame the celebrity seed Celebrity It is a celebrity version of Name the Seed. Are you familiar with the? Well, I know name the seed. I don't know about celebrity name the seed. Well it's o hang on, so that's come out of the That's come out of the. That should be in that bag. but it's not important. It doesn't really affect the gameplace, it's more part of the buildup and that's a big Part of it. There's the Okay. How many eight thousand seeeds. In there I've got a sealed envelope. Okay. And you can see that it's been sealed. Yeah, it has. And what does it say on the front Kid? It says Kry Richard McLain, my name. does. So this has been something we've prepared speespecially for you. Thank you very much. And when we say celebrity seed, what are you thinking? U I'm thinking Oh is it is it a pun Is it a seed that is also Or have you dressed up a seed to look like a famous person? You're not far off. You're not far off. On just I Well I know what the seed is. What your turn So that's there's a seed on there Okay, and on top of the seed is a tiny photograph of a celebrity. It's really tiny. It is tiny. And your job is I'll press that button up it goes and you have to name the seeed and also the celebrity. Okay. Do they have any relation to each other the seed and the celeb Not that I'm aware of. Okay. So that would have been a better idea. That would have been a making notion of that. That would have been a better idea. Are you ready to play? I am ready. Okay. Uff it goes. Can I get stuck here? Yes Is it? Well I know the I know the seed. Oh, you know the seed? Yeah. It's a pea. arere you saying pea Oh wait, it's not sition Well, I mean And is that is that Peter Mandelson Is that a p it a p Is it nosturia? Can I touch it? You Well, it's glued to the bit. Be You can touch it, you can touch it, Yeah. I feel like maybe it is an n aurtian. Jo want the magnifying glass? Yes. Wait is it the director who died? Whato would that be? Robert Redford? No, the amazing director with shock of white hair? Steen Spielberg? doesn'. Sorry to I've come here to tell you that. No Richard Richard Aenbr? No, can I get suuck in? Itcess would be the mil I mean we could go on and on. This h does not improve Why was it wayit? is it Oh no. God Is it a man or a woman, do you think? I think it's a man. Right I would have said Stuart Le, but he's got a little Jauncey bow tie, sort of one of those he's sort of got a KFC tie on. To be honest, I've forgotten who it is. But it's on the other side we can over alook on the other side. Are you ready to commit? I'm going to commit to Oh my Godd, who is that? I do know that face. Oh she knows the face. So it is a face. B Some of them have complained that it's just The tie is more prominent I really Oh wait, I know exactly that. Is it Billy Connolly Are you saying P, Billy Connolly? Yes. Orastalation Billy. Oh. Well it is a P. Is it a P? o It P but the Oh, it's Mark Drakeford, of course. It our former first Minister of Wales. I should have always known that it was Mark Drakeford, yeah. I mean It's a bit of Billy Cy. And a bit surely if everybody you looking. There is Definitely on the other side, you can see it like that. You can see that, right? Yeah. I see, yes Now, it's always been Mark Drakeford to me. Just Well I'll have to take your word for it. Well thanks. You've got one out of two. Conggratulations. Thank you. canan I plant this? Well we need to get the close ups of it. Okay. Be I'll let you know how my Mark Drakeford peas get on. Please, that'd be great and it'd be really interesting to know When it grows, it looks like Mark Drakeford. Yeah. And it lowers the speed to twenty miles an hour around my farm. Is that what he's done? It's probably the thing he's most famous for, but he was just the leader when it happened, anyway It's brought down casualties and fatalities and yet still some mad old right wing people think we should bring it back. Yeah. There were more dead Welsh people. Yeah. Well, let's bring it down to ten, I say. Yeah, perfect. it Celebrity. That's brilliant. I love the way you're so fascinated by that Garary's Joke Cner. Helly, Kiry Hi Gry. name was here all along. I was down there. wasn't they Daddy? Yes you were, Gary.,,,. They't made that noise, Gary, why not to limit my feel. Can I say just speaking as a foster carer The state of that collar It would be flagged as a safeguarding issue Yeah, he's only twelve. Oh, you see for what you No, no, is it his collar still coll. Th I would be asking questions about is there you know, levels of neglect there Well, I can answer that. There is My work here is done. So Gary is taking over the business in twenty thirty four short years from now. and he needs jokes. So do you have a joke for Gary? You got a joke? Yeah It's kind of a I'd say a very family friendly joke. Great. With a lot of economy. It works clean. Okay, great. So Gary, this is my joke, which is whereere do cows go on holiday? Hey I don't know. Let me just think. Where do cows? There's one about cows, what comes out of The Is of White was Browning Suting out the bt of white Well I say, what's Brown and comes out of cows, the Isle of White Fairy G Yeahah, good stuff. Is that it? No. no, 'cause it's a different s. Oh, o. What is what was it again? Where do cows go on holiday? Where did c? M Mew Zealand? No, not bad. yeah,Quite close. Moo South Wales You're right with the Mon and what you're placing. Moew Castle? No, that is who goes on holiday there? I don't mean that lovely. You've already upset the Wels New York New York, Yes, I love that one. New York Have you got a Joephis G? Yes, I have Daddy Daddy, daddy, Daddy. I recently ran into a sixty singing icon. Really Gary? Yes, a sixty singing icon in a retailer of athletic apparel. and she was goschhing on a citrus fruit Lulu Lemon. No Sandra Shaw, the Tangerine That's the sound that tells me it's the end of our pod scarf So all the remains is to thank our expert, Oliver Dubble and of course our special guest, Gurie Prichchard McLan. to fly in blue jeans. Hand ster in a chiffont top. Puppy in a poncho Fluffy duck cling with a bob. Butterfly in blue jeans These are things ofad dreams. These are the things Good night everyone. Thanks for watching. See you next time of dreams Dames Lovely, Karrie, What a lovely voice you. We can all sing in whales. They can all sing in whales. Excuse me, wouldould you mind repairing my shoes? Let's have a look at them Okay Sure, I'll have them ready by Wednesday. Thank you It's the H Hill show