Future Purpose and Mentoring Youth

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see Mor Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High performance to a penalty shootout. For us in that moment, it was about the process that gives us the best percentage chance of winning. A friendriend of ours had looked after the dog and he's thrown up all over the bedroom floor. Now bear in mind the Spanish manager is currently in Madrid on an open top bus. go over to support the fans, they're loing beer at me. If the joy's gone, then you're gonna find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players S Gareth Southgate managed England through eight years, four tournaments, two finals And in the course of it became the most successful England manager since nineteen sixty six By the end of his tenure. Funs were turning on him in the stadiums, the media had decided that he was a problem His family stayed at home because he didn't want them in those environments. What Gareth shares in this rich, revealing conversation is something that you rarely hear from a leader at that level. doesn't offer spin or excuses But instead on its account of what it costs to hold the line Crowd has decided it's already moved on He talks about how he managed the voice in his head Wh he shared his nineteen ninety six penalty miss with his players And the single moment when he realized that the joy of the job had gone It was that moment. More than any result is what told him it was time to leave This is one of those rich, revealing conversations that just gets better and better every time you come back to it. 'd like to welcome Sir Gareth Southate performance got to a stage where The FA were very keen for me to stay. They offered me a new contract. I didn't think signing a new contract before the tournament would be a good idea because I'd seen Fabio Cpello do that years earlier and it created a ion Wh why is he getting a new contract before the tournament? It should be after and It actually I thought increased the pressure on the team So okay, what will be acceptable performance? Well That's hard to judge, but I knew anything less than winning it and You know, we're one of the favorites but still only a even as one of the favorites is fifteen percent chance statistically of winning it But if we don't win, I just know the narrative will be a desire for change externally And then during that tournament that we didn't play as well as we wouldd have hoped. We couldn't find a rhythm. we We had players with injuries, we had some key players that We lost just before the tournament, people like MagGuire. By the way, people who we were criticized for years for playing, but have now actually become really important part of how people view the team So Th then we In the early stages of the competition, the crowd are turning in the stadium And that's now starting to affect the team, I felt. You know, we're back to the Tension in England game, we're back to this sort of sense of entitlement and you know, probably Once we place the Venia Again We finished the game. We haven't played well, but we've topped the group go over to support the fans that lobbing beer at me. You're kind of thinking well probably win or lose, it's probably the right time to go because Further down the line, this is just going to ramp pressure on the team And also from a personal perspective The enjoyment from the wins was getting even shorter and shorter. you know, even the semifinal against Holland is I might changes one sub sets up the other sub to score the winner and it's about as good as it can get as a coach. We're now in a second final, first final in. on foreign shores. celebrate on this pitch through ridiculous Dad dance on the pitch love watching the players celebrate in the dressing room for five minutes and then suddenly you thought, No no, but I lived all this in the last yearos and Three days later You know, it was carnage So it's straight onto the next thing. So Even the semif final win probably enjoyed it for Eight nine minutes And if the joy is gone, then You're going find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players. Probably any leader, it' a long period, eight years, you know, if you look leaders in anything. I think people get I've said in the book incumbency, fatigue or whatever they call it, you know, they're ready for change Circumstances around the team don't change, you know, if We create a change of government tomorrow The new government's got all the problems and issues to deal with People that elected a different government would think there's hope because they they're hoping for something different Whoever is in power But I think that's what happens in football, you know There's moments where the support's gone for managers. Clubs change becauseuse they're trying released the tension and there's hope But actually they've still got the same center back. they've still got the same they've still got no money to spend. they're still So you've got to be a wizard to come in and make that very different because a coach is relying on all the other parts of a football club or a rugby club or whatever Be in a good place to be able to succeed Let we go back to that voice in your head at this stage? because Some of this narrative that's building around you is unfair, patently based on the facts and of history and decisions you've made in that semiinyl What were you saying to yourself to be able to still front or to still represent the leader that the team needed I've got to navigate the team through this Of the four tournaments, this is probably the most challenging for keeping The outside noise on the outside So after every game Bringing the whole group together players and staff talking to them about This is where we're at. This is the reality There was a picture We drew one with Denmark Not a good performance The Danes are celebrating with their fans They've got one point and they're on twowo points for the tournament Our players are like this. They're on the floor The heading hands We've also got a point We're top at the table on four points But the players have gone with this narrative that we should be ashamed of the performance N thinking, hang on, this is tournament football You know, the objective is to qualify from the group. so Fellllows were fine You know we've now T games gone. we're ninety seven percent chance that we're through anyway. whatever happens in the third game So we've got to stay on track. We've got to stay calm in a In a tournament, you're in this bubble where You can be so affected by what's going on outside and lose the togetherness lose the sense of direction that You know, my job through that tournament was to keep reminding them, boom Hey, we've got to get better, by the way This is what we've got to do better. We're not doing this well enough. We're not But we're still here And regardless of everything else, we're showing resilience and we're showing spirit that we've developed over six, eight years through the Big nights where we've won and the nights where we've lost So just keep on track. and You know, they needed to see the leader is confident of where we're heading. You know, in those moments, everybody's looking at the leader. How's he dealing with it Am I ready to follow him? How iss he coping So I know what I've got to project, but also now in my room, I'm thinking I've got to see this through. I'm going to keep my dignity in the press conferences I'm not going to bite I'm in control. I know I'm actually feeling him personally in pretty good form So Yeahes, so all of those things were Had I been ten years younger back to my time at Middlesborough, I've got nowhere near there catalogue of experiences to draw on. So I couldn't possibly have got through that then. but ten years later with hundred internationals behind me Totally different experiences to draw on strength of resolve, everything, really. And what about your family though? because that must be It's horrific for them to watch you having to walk through this. Yeah, well that is I mean, reality is that is different because They haven't elected to be in that environment and they are living it and they are reading about their dad Um They didn't come through a game until the final because I said You know, I don't think it's a good idea for you to come. I don't think you should be in the stadium. of the abuse. Well, yeah, just because the environment for them, the discussion, the narrative around my position through that tournament, I didn't want to be worrying about what they might be dealing with. So Let's cut that problem out You guys stay at home When we won the semiinals, you might be alright now So we turned a little bit, you might as well come because you never know, we might actually ever You know, incredible night that will be So Again, you've got to manage the things that you're in control of. I don't want to be worrying about I've got a play. I can't be worrying about those other things. So I had to manage You know, there's always a bit of We've gotrilliant I have brilliant people that look after me that would have helped my family with their travel and everything else. but smallm part of you would have still been saying I hope they're all right. I don't know who's sitting around them, what are they saying? You know So, yeah, we avoided that issue. Did they know you were fininishing the job after the tournament Yeah, I did have that conversation with him because I had to reassure them, look, you know, I'm reassuring them, I'm fine Yeah they're they're at home, they're reading things there, watching television, there listening You know, they're not as experienced as I am at closing those things off So they're thinking Blumey is Dad al right, you know, in a rare moment of worrying about dad. So But um Yeah, so I'm thinking, no, I don't look I know where we are. you know, this if it ends on Wednesday We've had an amazing journey I don't want to go. and you know, Slovakia first knockout game or whatever it is. I don't want it to finish on Wednesday, but if it does, we'll have to deal with it, but I'm fine. Okay, we're on to the next one, on to the next one. and I needed to reassure them that I was fine in it It was easy for me to do that because I was in a good place. so I wasn't having to act that, you know, they would have known me. they they they would sense where I was with everything. You didn't feel lonely brilliant staff around me. Yeah. So You're never succeeding on your own. You're constantly drawing on good people around you Yeah, the leadership position there are moments where you're the only You know, you are the only one and you make decisions and you're left with your own thoughts, but I wasn't in that camp thinking, o God you know Im I felt unbelievably well supported by good people. You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfare gets it, planning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. 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So You are fighting it for it wasn't like, o, okay, I'm getting a bit of criticism, my mouth You know, I'm a bit more resilient than that. There'd been this build upp for a long period, you know, even through the euros at home we should be playing Should be playing X should be playing why? Why are we playing? five at the back against Germany, Well actually we've matched them up and we've We've won against a very, very good side first time we beat in Germany in a knockout game thirty years. so You know, it was a constant fight. I had those twoo three years leading into Russia that it was all It's all new, it's all fresh. Do you understand it at all was confusing, whyy is this the narrative around a successful team, the most successful teams in South Ramseay Well that? That's logical to take that view. and of course, part of me Definitely thinkink that That would be a fairite way to look at it I understood it because I've been in football for thirty seven years. I understand that as a leader You know, the important thing is they come for me, not for the team My job iss to take it for the team. I've got to give them space 've got to take the pressure off of them. So I've becausecause of all the things that have happened in my life, I've developed that resilience to that shell that you can cope with it a little bit more and You know, I can't take it all You know everybody's got to take a little bit, but I'm going to protect them as much as I can So and you accept, you know, I've seen Everybody from Graham Taylor to Bobby Robinson, I knew what the job was Most amazing life experience, incredible memories, nights that I'll never ever forget that People that come up to me will never forget, you know, some kids think we always get to findals, you know. They've never known anything different. They haven't lived the forty five years we have so Look, leadership's hard, isn't it? You know, and it's never been harder because of twenty fourty seven media, social media That is the landscape. It comes with great rewards great experiences and there's there's another side to that as well If you had' known the costso, would you have still taken the job W I? I didn't know what the costs would be When Roy left, I was asked to apply And I backed off of it really One of the reasons being I'd seen all those previous managers and do I want to go through all of that and a little bit of a lack of belief in myself, perhaps and a feeling that actually an internal appointment at that moment where we'd just lost to Iceland, I think would have got lambasted by the public. So actually two months down the line when Sam left slightly different. actuallyctually we've got a gaming a week's time. someomebody's got to take the team. I'm the only one left. So you know, we'll give it a go There's a different narrative that you're inheriting. If you're going in on the back foot from the start, it's hard to change that pushing a boulder up a hill from the off, you know, It's not impossible to turn that around But it's much, much harder desespite the way it finished. You didn't ever regret taking the job God now I mean the life experience I've had. There things I've been able to do, I've met rooyal family, Prime M ministers traveled the world at the most amazing nights in professional sport, being involved in some of the biggest games in worldld football ammazing relationships with players and staff. so No, I mean, not, you know, for all the focused a little bit on a period where It's hard and you You know, that leaves a few scars. There's no doubt about that No, what a life experience to be able to do that, hold that position for the length of time I had And the following day after you told the FA and you were no longer the England manager, how did that feel Karma the morning after the final We land back in and Birmingham We're obviously charter flight My family is still flying back on with all the other families so they're going to be home after us. So to home. And u F friendriend of Azid looked after the dog We've got a little cockapoo, by the way. I don't normally like to be seen out in the hours of daylight with him. I'd prefer a lab or something but Teddy Teddy's twelve now So opening the door and there's Ted I mean, he doesn't care about the final Do he you know he doesn't care who's played left back. He's there. It's unconditional I've got all my bags from six weeks and I go upstairs, I take my bags upstairs. And he's thrown up all over the bedroom floor So Now bear in mind the Spanish manager is currently in Madrid on an open top bus with a trophy So if you want the contrast between The margins of winning and losing There you are in a nutshell. It'sadly welcable. You know what though in some ways, isn't that almost the best welcome home? becausecauseuse it's a reminder that like life just keeps on moving. Yeah, yeah. ye. I mean, I'm not putting myself in me rock bands, but I've heard about rock bands going on tour and the struggle to adapt back to you know I mean, my wife's pretty quick to tell me, never mind that, your're own now get the bins out so But that's, you know, that is life, isn't it? Life goes on, okay But they are that's the difference. you know, where eighty five minutes one all. in the final They were a better team But if we win two one You know, I'm not home alone with the dog. I'm in Trafalga Square, you know, that's that's the margins of winning and losing and that's legacy in some ways for and it made it's made me wonder historic figures that have incredible history that we've read about Church or wherever else it might be across world history I wonder what those margins were in those moments and how we judge whether people were successful or you know, less successful Take a look at that photo and that fresh faced young man On the day he's announcedces the England mananager. Did he realize what was ahead of him, you think No, clearly you can't know at that point. How Everything's going to play out. U I do remember talking in a press conference and saying I've seen people Get into roles And that's That's almost been their end And I was determined that, okay getting the role, that's fine. It's a level above anything I've ever experienced before But it's really now about what we do and what we go and deliver and how we go about it. So I was very clear that That wasn't the end of it. It was Day one Yeah, even though it was a huge step from anything I'd done previously See, I think we're now talking at a very interesting time for you because I think when you were the England manager And it was about results and it was about tournaments and it was about progression and it was about selection and it was about players All the other things that you did in the role that are now your legacy were kind of They weren't dismissed but they weren't discussed because there was bigger things in that moment. And I kind of feel that now we're finally having the conversation about just how different England looks to the day that you walked through the door in twenty sixteen So can you take us back to what you found in the England setup. when you did walk through the door and you thought, okay, this needs my attention Yeah, I mean The start point was obviously results So No knockout win for ten years Dconnect public, disconnect with the media I didn't find a group that were disunited. So you know, under Roy, I thought lads got on You know, there was the start of relationships being built. So I wouldn't say we walked in and Goodness me, you know, they were all over the place disagreeing with each other. That wasn't the case I think because teeams underperforming They sometimes don't commit as much because they sense it it might not work and they don't want to throw themselves all in because they'll be scarred by the failure almost. So It was a fortunate period in that I think because the results, there was a willingness for change There was definitely an openness within the FA. We moved to St. George's Park a few years before A lot of changees going on with the junior youth teams and been involved in that. People like Dan Ashworth were there, Dave Redin. so good strategic people. You know I'm not I wasn't then particularly good strategically. so I people around me with other skill sets that I was able to lean into Culture felt like one of the biggest things and this commitment to the cause and was thereory really Well definitely fear of I guess what I experienced being the player that was responsible for the moment where you go out of a tournament And I think there was There was definitely a feeling of I don't want to be that player. a bit of self protection playing for your national football team doesn't come with much more pressure than that in sport Becauseuse you're outside your comfort zone at club, you're there three hundred days a year You know, everybody from the kitman to the lady that wass washing the kit to people providing the meals. so If you have a bad performance This comfort there, I suppose what would call psychological security withith the national team You're in, you've got to bond quickly When you have a performance Everybody's weighing in with opinion. So for a player, it's a much muchuch less secure feeling, if you like. And one of the things I wanted to create was Okay, how do we How do we release that tension? Be I'd played for England and I knew what that felt like And we couldn't be burdened by the history of My generation not getting the results, you know, Part of what we did was to focus on this moment in time free you up of all everything that's gone before talk to them about my experiences You know, you can make this moment something really special. You'd have heard us talk about creating our own history. That was Wh we kept using that phrase really Okay, we've one here for thirty years. Let's be the first to do it. sort of challenge mindset rather than feeleing the pressure of we've got to win, I suppose I think what was significant Gareth is and you write about this really beautifully in your brilliant book. You didn't just rely on slogans of let's create our own history You didn't boiled it down to where they clear cultural behaviourors you include in how you give the kit back Yeah Do you explain a bit about that and its significance Cult is a word that's used an enormous amount, isn't it? What is that? what creates that? Well the leader definitely sets the tone for that and respectfully There's what you say But then what you do is far more important. Yeah. So same as our kids looking at us, you know They're looking at our behaviourors, they're mimicking what we do. That's why I pull the same faces that my dad pulls. you know, you go, o God, I must be getting old because doing those things. so playlers are the same, you know, if you're saying We want to have freedom and then A mistake happens on the pitch and I'm jumping up and down like John Cleves then they, well there is no hang on a minute. he's talking about freedom but actually he' killing us always killing us in a meeting afterwards. so And then there's the small habits So when I was a young coach at Middlesbory, I let small things go I didn't pull up cultural creep. What things would count as small cultural cps pututting the kit in the wash bath, you know kits on the floor Okay So it's the is it the kit man's job to pick your kit up off the floor or actually we going to have a standard where There's respect for the kit man All we're asking you to do is put your kit in the wash basasket makes his life easier, shows a bit of respect for the kid You know, we're not going to find people for doing it But let's have those little things as accepted behaviours And when those small things are right, noobody actually notices them But when they start to disappear, you get what I call this creep of behaviour that slowly erodes and if If you don't step on it Th slightly more important, you know, time keeping starts to suffer and Before you know it, then on the field, you're taking those behaviors onto the field. So I think it's about respect for the whole group, players, staff You know, everybody thinks about the twenty six players, but ' probably got double that many staff now as well. So everybody's got to be part of that One of the other things that I really enjoyed Sing you do early on was taking your players out of the comfort that so many are used to it into the mud of the marine environment and doing some time with the military Would you sort of share with us why you felt it was important that you have not just a shared experience, but some shared discomfort with your players. Yeah ye. So firstly I always think it's important to acknowledge where other people have been involved as a leader you get lot of stick for things that aren't all your fault and you get credit for things that aren't all your decisions. So I mean, Dave Reddin, who's now joined Wor's rugby He was with Clive Woodward in two thousand three. They'd been to the Marines. So he'd lived through that experience and he suggested He thought this would be a good way of putting the guys into a different environment taking them out of their comfort zone. then as the leader, you've got to assimilate all those ideas. Well what does that mean? We got Tens of millions of pounds worth of football. if one of them turns their ankle, we're in real trouble with the clubs here. where we're heading with that Will they like it? Will they hate it You know, a lot of the players that were with us for The full eight years would say one of the best experiences they ever had. Did the Marines give you any feedback on what they were seeing from the squad Well we definitely asked about who they saw as you know, strong leaders in the group So I remember on that camp they talked about Joe Hart Harry Kane. and You know, then we were, you know, okay, well, you know, what what was that? and there was a selflessness. there was a going in first, you know, the fearlessness about how they approach things. So it was great to get an outside view of your group. I mean I love that aspect of it anyway. I'm always looking at the psychology of a group and hierarchy of a group and the dynamics, because Fundamentally that's what you're building. there There's the tactics board, but there's the flesh and blood and there's How does this all fit together? Those team dynamics and squad dynamics are critical to creating a culture where players can go and perform at their very best and a team can perform at their best. So I have to be careful I don't You know I don't just focus on that because there's all the other things that you need to get right. but an idea of players that are going to fit in or not fit in any way But a trip like that accelerates that massively because They're under pressure, they're a bit tired, they're a bit irritable They can't just be on their best behaviour. you know, their natural tendencies come out and you can start to identify Not sure that's going to work in this environment really Remember you tell me a story about on that trip? Was it Kain tripp you collecting rubbish that impressed you Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, we're back to smallm details, but You know, you're camping out and Some of the lads wrapped the tent up id off and there's a a mess on the, you know, we're out in the countryside. Okaykay, what are we doing about that? just Tid did his bedroom basically, you know, again, simple things, but Small habits matter , you know, small habits every day what end up leading to elite performance really? And how would a trip like that help England to win games of football Well, I think there was an element of hardship I mean, we actually Our next game we were away at Hamden Park. So we're going into a really hostile environment And You know, we talked about the resilience that we'd gained and When we were one' ahead in the game pretty comfortable. eighty five minutes, Lee Griffiths hits a free kick. onez Two minutes later he gets in an identical free kick same position and I'm looking at thinking this is going in, by the way, he's going pops in're now two one down And if we lose this game, now the whole Marinees trip's got a different lant on it. There's a brilliant story in the book that I'd like you to explain about the poker chips and how you engage the players. Would you tell us more about it? Well that was players so much, it was more the staff group behind the scenes So This was when of Davees again At that stage, everything was up for grabs Okay, how can we improve performance of the team. so be the physical preparation, could be the psychological preparation It might, you know, what are we doing on our football? so details of set plays. And had you take in charge of a game before you did this? This was after my four games as a caretaker. Right. So this is almost the start of your reign properly. Yeah, right. Yeah. And how do we, you know, we're now fourteenth in the world We want to be the best That's the gap. How do we bridge that gap? media relations as an example, we knew there was this disconnect. How do we bridge that gap You know, our coms team wrote aper, almost almost like an academic paper on influence of communications on performance So it wasn't just how we're going to do the media better It was look, this is actually This is actually how we view our communication as a performance gain And if you think back to Russia where It was the first time really a team had used social media to engage with the fans. you know, we were in that transition where clubs weren't necessarily doing that. So all this different content where You saw the dad's genuine You know, behind the scenes, enjoyment, relaxed pictures We had our own photographer embedded, whereas what you used to see was photographs from the day before a game training at the stadium Everyone's got their game facing because we better look serious because the press are in. so 't look like we're enjoying it everybody will think we' messing about and not taking it seriously were So people thought, well, they don't like playing for England. I don't think that was always the story. but That was the images that were going out. All all of a sudden, you've got You know Mcuire on his inflatable unicorn and all those sorts of things that are Oh these lets get on, you know, the changing the narrative then you win a couple of games and So yes, so all those details and back to your poker chips So there's all these things we could do We've only got fifty days a year with the team So we can't do everything And what are the key things? so stuff then, okay, where are you going to put your poker chips basically You've got thirty chips, you can put them on, you can put them all on one. area and what your topics were you offering them? So in a football sense, How we attack, how we defend set plays, penalty shootouts. so we know or we knew you've probably got to win a penalty shootout to win a tournament. History tells us that We're a disaster at them. History tells us that as well So that's an obvious one againgain, set placeays, you know, setcept play coaches at that time speespecialist coaches in other sports were more prevalent. they weren't in football When we went to Russia, we had a huge amount of success with plays and then medically You know, you can't make the players in the time you have them internationally, you can't make the players fitter and stronger really You haven't got long enough If you push them too hard, you're going to break them, you're going to send them back injured So you've got to really think about how much training they're doing. You know it's got to be aligned with what they do at their club. othertherwise they're going to be fatigued going into a game. That's going to inhibit their performance And so all these things right I'm going to put some chips there and We slowly developed a picture of Okay this is where we need to allocate Our time, this is where We've only got a certain amount of financial resource. so If we want a set play coach that's going to cost us money, what aren't we going to do if we're putting that in place and it was basically a prioritization exercise. But your staff were the ones that made the decision as to where they thought the time should be prioritised. It didn't come from you No, we we all, I mean, I had I had to go But it wasn'tiitarian No, no, situation where you're like, this is the this is how England runs under Garal Southsgate. No, no, you know, there are some things where You have to put your marker down You know, so culture I want to set that is That has to come from me because I've got to live that Every other thing, you know, I've got people that are better at those individual areas than I am, more experienced, greater knowledge, My job is to gather all the information and make the best possible decisions with what they're telling me So I need to give them the most open forum possible to feel like they can speak that I'm not influencing them, you know, talk in the book that We in team meetings I tried to speak last for my staff. Be as soon as I've given an opinion, that risks influencing someone else's Not their thinking, but their willingness to share You know, if theyre thinking differently to the leader who perception is holds the power in the room then they're going to be reluctant to go in a completely different direction I've just seen that in so many businesses and so many environments I've been in where Li comes in and gives a speech and everybody people are thinking I wouldn't quite have done it that way, but better not say anything So I think so many organizations underperform because That environment exists pick up on the point about the way the press spoke about England. Who was it a rugby player that said to us? He watches football and sees every player playing within themselves Yes. Who was it was It John Wilkson I thought so. So a long time ago when we spoke with Johnny Wils, we talked about dealing with other people' opinions of you. And he said he watches footb And he sees fear gripping every Pfession football in the country because of the amount of social media scrutiny, the way the media write about football is Have you ever allowed yourself to kind of think about what the game would look like if We just spoke positively about these young people that are doing the best to represent their club and represent their country Jake, I love it And now let's go back to the real world and what we because why are we in this world where we want to be hypperritical and then say, now go and perform as a twenty one year old in front of the worldsike how can we and then pillary them for playing badly. It feels like We'll create the problem and then we'll criticise them for being part of the problem. Is that fair? Completely. And that's why internally when you're coaching You've got to create an environment where balancing all of that noise that they're getting externally. So you've got to allow them as much freedom as you possibly can. You know, I talk to my players regularly about You know, if we're not trying things, if you're not making mistakes then we're probably not really going for it You know, I'm expecting you to make mistakes And I'm not going to criticize you for making mistakes Like I will criticize you if you make a mistake and then you don't look for the ball. The next time,. I will criticize you if you make a mistake, lose the ball and you don't Chase back quickly But the actual process, especially for attacking players because They've got to fail. To beat somebody is hard The odds are in favour of the defender So if I'm running at you You're going to probably stop me because even by just putting a foot out, you might get lucky So forwards are going to fail because they've got to Try things and it's harder But then you're waiting for one moment where they beat the defender get the whriip the cross in and bang you win the game. you've got to keep reinforcing that because their brain and All the noise around them is telling them the opposite U and it's annoy I always talk about You know, where does pressure come from? It's the voice in your head Really? Yeah. It's how you've voices interpreting all the noise that's around you. Its Nobbody's standing over you pressure And actually all that noise doesn't mean anything. until you interpret it in your mind. And which player do you look back on in that period or players and you thought I really hope to lift the pressure there because it's a myth to think that these players aren't seeing what's written in the papers or what's said on social media. They are on there, right? They are using these apps I mean, I don't know why they do that Yeah Did you try to encourage them to do go on? I do know why they do it There's a great method of communicating with people Yeah unless you're really Strong Bilient can rationalize things then if you're starting to read all the comments underneath I can't see how that's ever going to help performance. Is anyone strong enough to deal with that? Well I'd say no in reality because the volume now of that debate is So intense. So yeah, I remember talking to players quite often after their debut you know, how did you find it? Yeah, great. I can remember I think Harry McGuire's debut was in Lithuania. How did you find it? Yeah, great You know, didn't make any mistakes Great How about next time you try to be the best player you can be. you know said. Yeah Yeah. the number one criteria for professional football is to make no mistake. Yeah yeah That's restrictive in itself, isn't it? It is. But I think I you know, if I think back to when I started playing My aim when I first got in the team was just to stay in the team. Yeah and your thought processes If I don't make any mistakes, you know, it totally understandably achieve And so again, as a coaching team, you've got to work doubly hard to Okay, that's fine. that's a certain level. but If we're going to be world class, then We can have a different mindset. and of course, you've got players that have You know, they don't see that. risk in the same way you know, their personality if you profiled them. They see opportunity not not risk and so they're more likely to go for those things naturally With the other boys, you've really got to keep encouraging them when they fail. Come on you can go again, you know, so it's all trying to affect the psychology, really? But can I ask you about that voice the voice in your head that brings the pressure How did you learn to manage and control that voice for you? Yeah, took me fifty two years starting to crack it on the last three I was there as a player So periods Actually going into Euro ninety six, I was flying You know, and I played really well in the tournament on the biggest stage I'd ever been on because I was in flow I wasn't worrying about what might go wrong. I knew I was in form, I knew I was fit, I was reading things well. When I miss the penalty The next six months of my England career, not so much club because the club I was back to the comfort but England career now C can't afford to give a goal away here You know, if I give a goal away then media are going to be on me again and So I'm now playing, trying not to make mistakes. As you know, it's disaster. You can't You're never going to perform at the level you need to. So What flipped that for me was I got dropped Glenn Huddle drop I was mortified at the time. I went back to my room and then actually I was relieved out the team And then it was kind of whanging I that's not good So how do we get back and Okay, well now I realize' probably been through The worst that can happen is I' out the team And if I reflect on missing the penalty to realize that's probably the worst thing that can happen to me as a professional sportsman. bar injury So actually it's all, you know No inhibitions now. I can go for it for the So it was a real You know, it was a six month period because we didn't have people like Damian to come in and help talk us through all of that in those days. You had to work it out for yourself, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think somebody skilled like Damen is in working you through that journey would have helped fast track the learning and make that more structured whereas you You to kind of work it out for yourself, but got through it and the resilience that was built because of it helped me for the rest of my life. So you realize there then that just because something is hard for you, it isn't necessarily bad for you Do you think you're missing the penalty in nineteen ninety six directly related to the fact that you were the England coach that managed to get England to a successful penalty shootout in twenty eighteen. Yeah without doubt Well because I've become a world expert on penalty shoits now. And what mark your beers then? Well Um, Well, firstly to go back to your you asked about how did I control the You know, it was all these experiences along the way that taught me how to control the voice in my head before to g all day and people who've done enormous penalty studies. so Again, this was an area we threw open to our analysis team, right? You guys go away. We need we'll need to win a penalty shoot out and we need to get the British public out from behind the sofa every time one. we go to one. so what areas can we work out and they You know, all of this has been made public over the last few years really, so I don't feel like I'm giving away intellectual property that's going to cost England next year. but You know, they analyzed everything from The Ment The referee blows the final whistle So Actually, how long have we got to talk to the team because know we don't want talk too early and then the players are hanging around well, actually we know there's at least three and a half minutes. or why? O because Every TV station in the world goes to a commercial break They won't start the penalty shootout earlier than that So Okay, so we've got three and a half minutes. what are we doing in that time? What do the players need at that moment? What type of communication? and then you're going through And what was the ty communication they needed? Well had to be really clear, concise. You know, in moments of pressure when I talked to people from the military or You know, they're used to communicating and there's got to be you know, less is Sink You know, you can't be U using elaborate language, you can't be talalking for too long because ability to take information on at that moment is really difficult You know, halfim is tough, but End of the game waiting for a penalty shootout Really, really concise. Again, I think I got better at that. We had four shootouts By the last one, we cleared all Everybody away, all the subs away. communication I'd kind of prepared it the day before because I knew if we at that moment, I know exactly what needs to be said What did you say in your final one basically reassurance that You've got a process You know, we're in control So one of the important things was The narrative for years was it's a lottery. you can't practice it But actually having control over situations like that is critical or perception of control. So we know the techniques that we need to use You know, we weren't working to improve and Iv and Tony Ges every week But we did need to work with here in Tpia before Moscow with Harry McGuire before he buried is one in the top corner against Italy. So You know, we could show you video footage of McGuire practicing that penalty in training bomp So That doesn't make it Any this pressure I'm sure he was still incredibly nervous But he had a routine And so he feels in control of that moment. He knows what he's going to do. Now you've got to stick to the plan So the By the point we got to the All the work had been done It's just reminding them that you've got a process stick with what you What you've been practicing? That was it, simple as that, really You don't need to be whipping them up at that moment it's actually But it felt good for the first one when Eric dies, I bet you were like. Put some of those ninety six demons away for you There were so many layers to that shootout because There's obviously the personal narrative This effect You know, we had to at least win a kn if the team were going to show progression in that tournament, we needed to win a knockout game. that That's the first knockout game. So We know before the game Ready perceived success or failure of this tournament rests on this knockout game then we go to a penalty shoot out You know, if we don't change this narrative, you can imagine what the narrative The stories about me would have been well, is it any wonder we've lost a shoot out because he got us knocked out in ninety six. so and also belief in all the processes we've been going through on details across all these different areas of the game. so They definitely felt a feeling of redemption. but of course that doesn't help the players that played with me in ' ninety six. But it was a start process of hopefully You know, if England get a penalty shoot out nextxt summer I think the whole nation is looking differently at that because we've won three of our last four, whereas we've lost Six of our seven Did you ever tell them about your experience in ' ninety six? Yeah I'm not somebody that worries about showing vulnerability players needed to understand I had empathy I mean, you're not always going to be able to directly relate to a group of people that you're managing and leading. but in that instance, Having been a player was helpful You know, I don't think you have to have been a player to be a coach which was lucky because I wasn't the top player. But in those examples, the fact that you've walked in their shoes and you know how difficult it is and you can tell them why you didn't you know, I couldn't I failed to execute a skill under pressure. So How can I help you to be able to master that skill? And this is why I think it's important. This is what I think can help you You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfare gets it. Pning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfare's Fth of July clearance. sccore huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, sururprise Flash Deals July sixth. Don't wait. Shop Wayfare's Fth of July clearance now through july six at wayfare dot com d Pay fair, every style, every home. He said showing vulnerability can be helpful What are the benefits of you as a leader doing that I think people see you're human. I get that you' opening up for them, you know, you're bearing you're bearing everything. you're leaving yourself a bit exposed, but Actually, you're confident enough to do that So it's not a sign of weakness, I'd say it's a sign of strong confidence that Yeah I don't mind standing up in front of this group of Alpha males and superstar players and talking about now, by the way, I mean, not every story can be about things that went wrong because they'll start to think has you got a clue what he's doing. so you know, I think I think in that environ You know, it's a very Macho you've been around sport long enough to know men's sport, how that all what that all looks like But I think People are changing as well. The way we lead people is changing. I don't think they'll just give respect to an authoritarian leader. You've got to earn their respect even more. think Younger generations, it's not about a title It's how you treat them. It's how you engage with them. So I think timing of the way My style is always going to be that way because that's how I am. and maybe the timing of that is good for me that professional football, professional sports changing a little bit The expected communication isn't just directive demanding there are moments you've got to do that People want to see what we call softer skills, but But critical skills really, it's not soft Talking about critical skills, two years after that penalty shoots out There was another one againgst Italy this time in the final and I've read about the work that you did with Casper Berry, the poker player And I think about the relevance of that moment where you made late substitutions specifically for penalty shoot out I mean, I saw the criticism that also came your way after the penalty shootout because of the result primarily, but really interesting how you got to a point through maybe some of the work you did with him where in that pressure cook a white hot moment that Weembley against Italy in a final to still be able to make what you believe to be the right decisions, regardless of what the external opinion of those decisions might become or might be at the time For us in that moment, it was about process that gives us the Best percentage chance of winning. And you know, people criticized Rahim Sterling for not taking a penalty, Jack Greelish, But that wasn't their call I didn't put Rahim in that position on that night. He was a more experienced player. He was an important crucial player for us. But his penalty record was thirty three percent Marcus Rashford eighty seven percent So so these were data driven decisions. Well, they were you know, evidence based now If we're not going to go that route, then we just toss the coin and go back to what we were doing for years before. So You know, had we left Rahim on A not used markers You know, had he missed and maybe you would have scored, but had he missed would' have been going well It's thirty three percent. Wh of course. Why did we mry with? by going right? He's thirty three and he's over eighty He' been sitting on the subpench. he's been playing. He's played well. he was he was in a good form this week. He came to me with a bit of a fear a couple of days ago. how do you balance kind of the data with the Yeah human? And that's fair because you've still got to factor in all those aspects Clearly only being on the pitch for a very short period isn't helpful. You know, that's a big percentage shift and and is plenty of You know, World Cup final, Argentina put Dbalar on in the last minute He takes penalty scores, Nobody's talking about it. when Harry Cane missed his second penalty against France in Qatar Some people said, Oh, I shouldn't have let him take a second pen. Um There's two parts to that in the World Cup final. and Bae scored three. And then also if we hadn't let Canaine take it and we'd let somebody else take it and he'd missed, can you imagine? So again as a leader, you've got to accept people will judge on the outcome. But to your point about the poker player that came in, his point to us was You had a good hand there. You were right to play the hand You lost it But if you play that hand, Ten times You're going to win eight of them. Yeah. So you've got to gamble on the hand you had Did that help you afterwards when you thought about that? D about the result? You like, well, I played the hand I hand. Well we had that meet eight months later So I then was thinking back becausecause we' then got a decision on do we stick with the process for our next penalty shootout or do we change it and that discussion around the decision you made with the evidence and information you had at the time, do you still think that was right That did affect my thinking moving forward because There was a risk of ripping everything up that had succeeded against Colombia, had succeeded in against Switzerland in a Nations League game but we've lost one now. So Are we going to stick with it or are we going to change and we slightly refined you know, one of the things we actually practiced a little bit less So I think one of the things in twenty twenty one Marcus had almost practiced too many times he was trying to be too perfect in practice because the goalkeepers had started to read where he'd go. So if you look at the penalty he takes in that final, He takes way longer than ever before Now normally people talk about rushed penalty ticks, not not taking long enough over the penalty he actually takes longer now he might feel differently about that, but My sense was, and I said to him, mononths later I think because he'd been practicing against goalkeepers in training too often, trying to be too perfect. so he's looking for the right in that stanchion area and Hits the post So we okay, we're going to take fewer penalties Next time There's more pressure on each one. You can only have three Not eight because actually they lose focus And we're going to take an extra goalkeeper so that you're not facing the same goalkeeper every time as well. So Yeah of course We win the shootout. so everything is everything right? I don't know. In football Well ye, ye yeah, probably. But I think The more you build up the percentages in your favor, then Logically to me, you've got a better chance of succeeding. Let me speak you about some of the tougher calls that you made as well, G, like navigating the retirement of Wayne Mooney from the international setup. It seems that You handled that with thought and consideration. Would you tell us how you came to decisions like that Yeah, I mean They are big calls So You're very conscious that whilst talk a lot about people and managing people and people that think I'm emmpathetic and hugging everybody and You know,'s decisions that have to be made and you've got to make big calls and Waynes one of our greatest ever players Now I have to say he could have made that incredibly difficult. because We know that one of the hardest things for an athlete is to accept They're on the decline You know, one of the reasons they are as good as they are is because they've got unbelievable self belief They won't want to admit that they're coming towards the end You know, in the second game I had It started the first game. I said, lookook, I'm not to start you in the second but he You know, for a top player, his humility and his awareness was incredible, really because he said, no, look, I'm not getting into Manchester United's team Don't expect, therefore. just to start for England. play that out of few months down the line and he's you know, heading towards the end at United and You know, there were players that were playing better than him. Now all I could do then is show as much respect as possible for the career he'd had. You know, I played played with him in his debut. so I wanted to be as respectful of what he'd achieved and go and see him and talk it through But the reality of that is the way he received that information made that much more comfortable for me because that could have gone anywhere that conversation, you know, we've seen those things happen. so his humility, his acceptance and we all have a choice in those moments, don't we you know? It's a bit of a reminder that Dellivering Bad news is difficult, but How you receive bad news, I think the person on the other side would always remember that because You know, I could have left with a very different view of Wayne. I'm telling you a story where He comes out with enormous credit I probably wouldn't have talked about it if it'd been the other way. In the back of my mind, I'd been thinking h yeah that that didn't go so well. What is the secret to to delivering that kind of news. particularly when it's a winner light. Like Wayne Rooney, is it Let me tell you about all the amazing things that you've done for me and will'll continue to do. But by the way, here's some b news. or are you just like Lit and Wayne I've made a call and you're not in my plans at all I think there were different types of tough conversations So there's performance conversations where You know, you're probably going to be with this the next Game stake But we need more. So I need to highlight that Firstly, where do you see your performance And are we seeing it in the same 'cause maybe it isn't a tough conversation because maybe you're saying to me actually ve been struggling with this and this and Okay, well, how can I help you For a coach that's much easier. So let's try that way first and save ourselves a lot of heartache But if you're not seeing what I'm seeing, now I've got to say, look Now look, I like this, this and this I think you've got to be better in this area and How do I help you get there? Because if I don't highlight that issues I'm seeing and now I'll just leave you out the team in three weeks This is shock That's a harder conversation to have. and I actually haven't helped you. I haven't helped to coach you to be the best you can be. so So although that might feel like a tough conversation By avoiding it You're then out of the team I'm creating an even harder conversation further down the line. So I think when people put those conversations off, which I did a couple of times as a young coach, Actually, they're storing up trouble for themselves. so I would urge people haveave the coaching conversation. I heard Steve Peters talk about it, you know, frrame it if you're delivering that discussion, frame it. I'm trying to help you, but it's coming from a place of love, if you like trying to help you get better It's not. try to highlight that you poor at this You know, you're going to be a better player, you're going to be a better person for this information I'm handing on whichich means that then The other conversation where you're delivering bad news I don't think you should spend too long on that I don't think I don't think people hear too much. Once you've told them bad news, I think the I think they switch off. And was that what the conversation was with Wayne Well, I think we were further down the line So You know, I'd ask to go and see him. That's not normally a good discussion, so he's seent me prepared for what's coming. But to broaden it more generally, if I've got to leave a player out of a game then I think it's T them the bad news, no use fluffing up, but then give them the opportunity to come back later when they've had time to process their thoughts go through what they're really thinking, what their emotions are simply because as I said, I think if you Waffle for a long time and try and make yourself feel better because I'm giving them a bit of suugar here as well as the bad news I don't think they're hearing any of that. I think all they're thinking, you know, I know I've been dropped from teams. All I'm thinking is right I'm out and what does that mean? I'm away with the fairies then. So how do you think people will? in the years to come right about about your The old time you Yeah, I mean, some people will have loved it You know, it it's the most successful period since sixty Six to seventy two because even Seralph didn't qualify in seventy four for the World Cup. So Even he ended up leaving on a bit of a low. Others will say we should have won with the team that we had and you've got to live with that as a leader. you know, you're defined in football by trophies But I think broader scale if I was talking to youngsters about leadership and You've got to think about what you've What was there when you started You know, what did you leave behind? How did you affect the people that We're with you What are their memories of it How did you make people feel along that journey. so this You know, the risk in purely defining it and people will say, Oh, well, he's not going to define it by trophies because he didn't win So I'm accepting that I'm accepting that But we have to be broader than that. othertherwise life for most people in the population is going be pretty miserable. We have to have a better balance on those things And you said earlier on that Some scars still remain from the the way that it finished England. I think some things will always be there but I've enjoyed Well, I I'm I'm now in a somethingomething else you' have talked about over the years with other people. you know, I'm now in a Cer transition moment almost. okay. I've had thirty seven years fififteen defined as a player never had the chance to think about because I went from player to manager overnight. So this is the first period where Am I going to stay in football? Am I going to do something completely different And a lot of people My sort of ageer. going through that process, I think, you know sold a business or have stepped away from a big role and What do I want to do with the rest of my life? I think a lot of people are looking for purpose You know, I had amazing purpose because it was my country So replicating the size of the job I had and having purpose. that's cllose to impossible, really So I'm not against going in a completely different direction. You know, I want to help young people, I want to help this change this narrative around our country that country is a mess. you know, we should all be moving away. Let's change that, you know, let's give young people hope, let's think about how we mentor young people and None of us want to turn the television and hear that every day. It's just a self fulfilling prophecy. so But we've all got a chance to do something every day to change that guide young people, mentor young people, whatever that might be. you know We're an amazing country with so much talent People want to have businesses here because the legal systems best in the world. so how much more valuable is it for young people to be told Actually in so many areas, life has never been better the opportunities are greater than they've ever been And that's not for young people. I think that's for you as well. I think you know, you've If you've learned anything is that you can't control everything, right So what happens next is probably arguably not within your control. So it's maybe time to explore and just see what the world gives you, what the universe offers up. Definitely. Finally, I wonder why that guy in the middle would have made us the journey that you've been on Yes, yeah It was my granddaddy was a in the Royal Marines. And I mean, I've been B blessed that my My parents gave me a loving start. so I mean, you've have heard of attachment theory where the first hours, weeks of a kid's life it' hugely important. they feel that love. So there's this security that gives you there's a Tust You know, a lot of young people find it hard to give trust because they' not experience those early years in that environment. And then becausecause my grandad had standards of the basics, you know his shoes were polished every morning because he had that military background. He always had a tie on take his out off if you saw walk past the lady. so He was around when I started playing for Chrryistal Palace. he didn't quite get there to see me play for England, but without a doubt when I stood and sung the national anthem the first time in an England showt. He was one of the people I was thinking of, yeah Well, he would indeed be proud As should you know there's no doubt about the fact that you changed the narrative around the England team, you changed the trajectory of the England team There was hard times. toward the end of that story, but In some ways, the hard times hopefully frame just how incredible and special the good times were, and I think you are a voice for for the future that we all need to hear. No thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak Damiian It was really interesting understanding the things that he did at England to improve the culture, the mindset, the self belief of the players and I honestly think that's work that Thomas Tuchl and others will benefit from But the other half of the interview was the clear pain that you could see in his eyes actually when talking about the end with England and I really hope that Gareth as much as this Book these releases is about leadership I also hope it stands as a testament to the fact that We need to be kinder to people I know that often isn't the currency in football This was a guy giving England their greatest results since Sir Alph Ramsey and pretty much hounded out of the job, right? You know? He said he left because the perception around him had changed. If the perception was different, he wouldn't have left And I just got this sense that it remains really unfair. I think the second halfay talks around the culture of the England say. You don't need to understand football to be able to take lessons from that in wherever we are, you know, in any culture, whether you're in a school, a business whether youre thinking about it in relation to your family I think what he's learned and what he's sharing so generously in his book and in the conversation with us is invaluable. I love the stuff about poker chips and giving people the opportunity to decide where you going to put your money where your mouth is, Whher are you going to prioritize? You can't do everything. We can do anything but we can't do everything. So where are we going to invest our time I think your definition of a leader is, do you leave a situation better than what you inherited it? And I think When we look at it through that lens, not whether he won a trophy or not, the answers are unequivocal. Yeah, of course he did. What about when he said didn't have his family like that bit for me was heartbreaking, right? When you're the England boss, you're winning games He then says against Holland D Felt very little thrill because he knew the storm that was coming if things didn't work out And his family weren't even there Like he kept them away from England games. That is the that is how Victriolicatedatedcs. How sad is that To me, it's a sign of a sickness in society is't that means that we have to look at ourselves rather than For him as a leader, the fact that you've got somebody in charge that's out there in the arena doing the best and worried about the safety of what their family would be subjected to That's something that Should if anybody listen to this, pause for a moment of self reflection. Youve just hit the nail on the head there? criticism of Gareth as the England boss was not a reflection on him or the results he was getting. It's a reflection on society. one hundred percent and I just hope that people read the book. Ustand the man behind the England job and reflect positively on a guy who from The very best place possible with a good heart, a kind guy. Changed England and by the way, what was he like with our team before and after the recall today Exactly what you see, decent, humble Caring, courteous I remember what means if you'd see a Kalisi, the captain in the South African a rugby union team who bats aboutat worldorld Champions and