Building a Future Without Algorithms

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see Mor Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of high performance Go for the win W That's why you go to a casino, isn't it And a wind Creek Bethlehem You'll find a lot of them. bone in ribeye that ruins every steakhouse after it. Live entertainment worth staying up for. W. A hotel and spa that makes you forget to go home. W. The highest payouts in PA and only sixty minutes away. W. It's not that far, just far better. Go for the W at Wind Creek Betleem. Visit windcreek. com gambling problem call one eight hundred gamber Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance. and this is one of the Wednesday episodes where myself and Damian look back on some of the guests who have joined us over the past few years. We delve deep into a specific topic and today's specific topic is the use of smartphones. So if you've got a teenager in your life, if you've got a younger person in your life If you yourself are struggling with your phone use or your use of social media, if you feel that it's stealing life from you then you need to listen to this episode because we are going to be talking the truth about social media, the truth about being online too much, the harm that it causes, We're going to be hearing from high profile people, We're going to be hearing from experts And we're going to be giving our instant reaction to the ban that's been announced that comes into place in december twenty twenty seven Your initial reaction to Secist Am's announcement, Damiian? Absolutelylight think is you can't have been in the seats that we've been lucky enough to be in over the last six years that opposite. someome of the finest minds on the planet that have explored the impacts of social media, especially on young people come away with a sense of alarm about what it's doing and what and what we're sort of allowing to happen un check. so to see some withdraw a line and to not take away social media, but to give back the life, the opportunities, the fun We grew up Eience in That to me just leaves me delightedad. And it's exactly the point that Sakirist Dama made when he announced this. He said, it's not about us taking something away, it's about us giving you something back. And actually what he's giving people back is the single most important thing that we can give them, which is life, which is exploration, which is human connection. Um We're going to hear from a number of guests. and actually it's alarming for me how often we sit and have a conversation on high performance And we speak to high achieving people who aren't very happy And actually when you think about it so often it's linked to the fact that they have social media in their lives. So A long time ago, we spoke to Eddie Har boxing promoter, who told us he doesn't really feel much joy anymore after one of his big boxing events because he goes straight ono social media. And everyone tells him that his boxing event was shit. We actually have a podcast episode coming out This coming Monday with Lilliam Lawson. And we asked him, didn't we? We said, What's the one thing that you've had to sacrifice or give up to pursu being a former lawn driver, and his answer was And Liam is one of the drivers that I think gets the most criticism in Formula onene. And I don't think it's a coincidence that he feels he's given up happiness at the same time that he is sucking up so much online abuse. And I know that we're talking here about high profile people evidence is clear It's not just about social media criticism or abuse, it's just being online. then I think one of the most startling bits of data was from Meta's own research, right? Because I think the argument here is devastating, right? Social media companies didn't just accidentally harm childhoods, in my opinion They design products specifically to capture young people's attention, right The evidence of anxiety, of depression, of addiction, of the loss of sleep I think is absolutely devastating. And metaone data One in three teen girls. Instagram made their body image issues worse Now we both have Girls You have a ten year old, I have a thirteen year old And I guess really we've been asked a really simple question, if something knowingly harms millions of children Why have we been treating it like harmless entertainment for so long We're going to go back and listen later on in this episode The interview that we did with Alex Greenwood, one of the inspirational England NNSs, and we're going hero fifteen years of age, she was being subjected to comments about her body tyape and size and The impact that that had on her It's one of those examples you just offered there J, whether it's Liam Lawson whether it's Eddie Heoar. we're talking about adults here And yet What we know is your brain doesn't reach full maturity until you get to about twenty five years of age. So these are people that are still at full maturity and they're still talking about the damage, the hurt, and the isolation that follows from it. amplify that to kids fifteen that's receiving kind of abuse in their v. I don't think it's even about a I think let's not get too up on the abus thing. I don't think social media abuses the problem. Social media is a problem Addiction to being online is a problem. YouTube is a problem. Snapchat is a problem. For me in my life My daughter's not allowed anything. she only has what Whatsupp. Even WhatsAppps is a problem. Yeah. How often do you have a conversation with one of your kids and they're picking up a phone And you go get off the phone and they go, I'm just I'm just looking at YouTube. I'm just messaging a friend I'm just checking teams, which by the way is a book be of mind that her school use teeams to communicate with kids. Let's please stop that immediately. I know the social media abuse thing is painful for a lot of people, but I would say the majority of people don't That's not thesue, isn it course I think you're right but again don't even think about it with your kids ee How many times do you meet another parent and I'll have you a bar within An hour of a conversation, definitely within the first hour You talk about how you managing The phone news for you kids. For me, it's a huge percentage. What do you reckon for you? I think it's massive, but I actually think it for me, it's not just a conversation about whether My kids can handle social media. I actually think that we're I think one of the main reasons we're banning social media is not because children can't handle it It's because we've got to a point where we've admitted that even as adults We can't handle it. Yeah. And I think We know it's damaging us and that is the truth, right I know my life's being stolen by the use of my phone. Yeah. so much notot just sitting on the sofa scrolling also going somewhere and needing to take a frreickin phhoto and video of everything Like why do I need to do that? Like how many have you got your phone there? No no. How many photos dragon I've got on my phone About five hundred. No me, are you mad? God Oh twenty seven thousand twentyenty seven thousand photos. I bet you twenty six and a half thousand is just nonsense. I've just taken a photo of a meal or a video out of a train window or an amazing likeike yes, I' too a good example. there wass a rainbow over our house Last week, a double rainbow nice, right?. I looks out the window Florence Sepp and Harriet were all taking photos on phones and I went out and took a photo on my phone Like what is this about So let's get into hearing for one of our guests then because I think this is a really important first clip to start with. Jonathan Hite who wrote an amazing book called The Anxious Generation. He join us on High pererformance and this is what He told us about the use of smartphones and childhood everything important out of childhood replace it with millions and millions of fifteen second TikTok videos and Instagram posts That's what we've done So we can't expect our kids to grow up to be confident creative, good performers If we don't give them a childhood nature evolved for us in order to bring humans from childhood to adulthood. We have over protected our children in the real world under protected them online. I think Jonathan Hight is the perfect person to begin this episode with. and this idea that we've taken real life and replaced it with fifteen second TikTok videos really sums up The life that we're living and that young people are living at the moment Um And I guess We all need an understanding of how we've ended up in this position, don't we? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love Jonathan H his book. Pis hypothesis is one to me like a seminal text that I often go back to, but his more recent research, he talks about how It almost like we've run in this giant global social experiment without recognizing what we're doing. So it gives you the idea that we like we're wrapping children up in ble wrap in the physical world and then we just leave them isolated and alone in the digital world. So we've stopped them climbing trees or walking to school on their own or taking those small risks that kids need to build resilience and at the same time we've gi them a device that gives them access to the very best and equally the very worst of humanity twenty four hours a day. So ed up, you know, people talk about snowflakes and they go Kids aren't different. kids haven't changed The question is whether it's our understanding of risk that's kept changeed the world that we've sent our kids into. So we think that the the real world is riskier I gonna is Yeah And we think the online world is safer than it is. So our kids are no longer climbing trees in case they fall they are absolutely spending time on social media and if they fall, then the consequences are devastating And if you're listening to this conversation and you still don't think that what we're saying is real Jan Hari, another guest who join us, told this brilliant story. He was at a Silicon Valley confference and he watched a designer of smartphone apps, ask the room Would any of you in here like to live in the world that we're creating. How many hands went up No one Not one hand was lifted in the end. These are the people that have created the world in which we're living. Let's hear Johan Hari Aually explain. What's really happening here You can try having self control, but every time you do, there are ten thousand engineers on the other side of the The screen trying to undermine your self control I mean, the way that he says that ten thousand engineers on the other side of the screen tryrying to undermine your self control And I think this is where we actually have to also be kind to parents and kind to young people and come to ourselves Because companies are spending billions of pounds to addict us to tech How can you and I With all the love in the world that we have for our children possibly compete with the data, the knowledge, the influence. the expertise and the spend of these big digital companies. likeike we literally can't compete Therefore, we were always going to end up in this position Therefore, it's totally the right thing to add some sort of control, is it? A hundred percent, Great Pavall that when we sat down with Chris van Tuliin and he was talking about ultra processed foods and he gave that great example about food in Mexico up until the I think it was the nineteen eighties, there was like u some kind Up until nineteen eighties, it was some kind of trade embargo that So primarily from America wasn't allowed into Mexico And then there was a very clearly before and after state when the embargo was lifted and lots of ultra processed foods could find their way in. And you can see the impact on u heart diseases, diabetes and all those other kind of diseases associated with unhealthy foods on the population of the country. What Mexico did, as Chris explained to us is they now put like large black warning labels on the front of foodood that is considered that's dangerous. it might be high in sugar or salt or calories. The Mexican government understood that Asking people to rely on willpower alone wasn't going to be enough and billions were being invested in making products more unhealthy, but ultimately being irresistible. And I think smartphones and social media raises a similar question. If we got knowledge that kids need protection from products that have been designed to steal their attention, to steal their focus, to steal Senseor connection Why would we treat digital products any differently from The food products that Chris explained You know, my frustration in terms of the reaction to the news from the government, right? Is everyone going oh there's workarounds? Oh we hasn't worked in Australia? Oh I know a twelve year old in Australia that's still on social media Like there's workarounds for everything There's a workaround if your kid at twelve wants to go and buy cigarettes. There's workarounds if your sixteen year old wants to buy alcohol and go to a party and get drunk, like we all know there are workarounds I actually think that what the government are really doing here is there putting a warning out to all parents and people in a position of responsibility to no longer stand by and watch And I think any parement that goes there'll be a workaround you are being A useless parent. It's your job to stop the workaround So Harrry and I had a conversation yesterday. So Florence isn't allowed social media Sometimes she goes on our phones and looks at Instagram, likeike that now stops And actually it's really easy to stop it because it's like, well, it's leegal Florence. It's like you're literally not allowed to look at Instagram Sed loves YouTube. and he was talking to me last night, he was saying Who are all those videos I love on YouTube And I'm like, what about all the people that used to love smoking cigarettes? Yeah. You know, there's a moment where we have to say, you might love it But it doesn't mean that it's good for. People are listening this, C I just share a few Sts a bit of data, you were going to say something. you go first and then. Well, I was going to say like the idea of workarounds like I heard the same sort of debate about it's what works in Australia. Well, we're judging it in about six months worth of data at the moment versus what John Hight said fifteen years into. this social media experiment. but when you need Gullb back in our history where we've asked people to change behaviourors like in nineteen eighty three u it became outlawed that you couldn't get in a car and drive without putting a seatbelt on What we saw in the first twelve months of that was that People wearing a seatbt went from forty percent to ninety percent in a year because it became legal. It became mandatory, so you had to think about it in that regard But I think there's something more significant about what the Australians have done and what hopefully will do here in the UK What about the generation of kids that are never going to be exposed to social media before sixteen? So we're talking about our children that have that have been exposed to it. so they're feeling that sense of loss at the moment What about the next generation below them they're never going to experience that. That's who this law is intended to help as well. And in some ways, I feel kindind of devastated our generation of children are the only ones having lives stolen from them. Yeah, becausecause the previous generation didn't, we didn't. I remember getting my first phone at nineteen or twenty. But that was just a phone. I remember using Twitter for the first time in two thousand nine a thirty year old guy. Right And it's caused me enough stress in the years since and I'm an adult The next generation, you're right are not going to have the same questions not going to have the same problems I feel devastated that it's our generation have had this and have been exposed to this. But I love that quote, you know and you've used it a few times when we've chted, Jacob about The sign of a civilized society is people plantsing seeds for trees under whose shadow they'll never sit. Yeah. So I'd encourage anybody that's sort of listening to this debate and thinking, Yeahah, but I'm focusing on the loss of what I can't give my kids to to think about What we're setting up for generations to come in this country that Hopefully it leads to happier healthier and more productive lives for them. And if you're still wondering whether it really should happen, have a listen to this Um I mean, UK children are already phoneed first, right? Offcomes twenty twenty six reports thereays seventy eight seventy eight percent of eight to seventeen year olds haveave their own mobile phone Childhood free time has been colonized by screens among eight to seventeen year olds favourite free time activities for young people. Gaming Watching TV or watching films. Only twenty seven percent of young people say hanging out with their friends is what they want to do in their free time Mate this is devastating. eightight percent of UK children age eight to seventeen say spending time outdoors is what they want to do with their free time Eight percent. Yeah May it gets worse on OffCOM found sixty five percent of parents of children aged six months to two years say their children are online and eighty five percent Parents of six months or two year olds say their child enjoys looking at a screen Ofcom says thirty seven percent of eight to seventeen year olds in the UK think they spend too much time on screens. among children with a mental health condition that rises to them believing fififty six percent of them believe they spend too much time on screens. fififty five percent of parents of eight to seventeen year olds think their child' screen time is too high And over thirty percent of parents said they find it too hard to control But the social pressure number is the most brutal one, I think thirty three percent of eight to seventeen year olds who use social media or messaging apps feel pressured to be popular all or mostost of the time. and seventy percent of young people feel the pressure at least sometimes And finally, online harm is not theoretical Among these eight to seventeen year olds off comm ask whether they'd seen nasty or hurtful behaviour in the past Over twenty percent said it happened to them personally forty seven percent of young people that had been exposed to nasty or hurtful behavior said it happened through social media That reminds me there's a great phrase from a couple of psychologists called David Pizaro and Paul Bloom ve been exploring this as well and they talk about shitty flow You know, like so many of our guests we talk about being in that state of flow the sixent Harley idea that everything is effortless and it's easy and that's why you your best izar on Bloom called shhitty fllow that state feels like flow because you're absolutely absorbed in a moment and you lose track of time and you become immersed in activity But when you come out of it you feel depleted rather than fulfilled and what they're basically describing Doom scrolling All the impacts that you've just described there shitty flow of being exposed to These messages are the algorithm serving up things that make you feel inadequate or this structure Lavevers walking away from it, feeling lesser and before we went into it. It's almost like the opposite of what we know Six centy Harley's idea of flow is, which is being at your very best. This is being at your worst. So u We asked people online to tell us what they thought about this ban using the high performance accounts. I mean we had a lot of people saying such as this William House says as someone from Australia It stops nothing. kids just lie Um Terrible policy says Sam does what impossible to polleice or govern. It's not impossible to police or govern. Is it impossible to polleice or govern whether you're Kids. drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes or take drugs or are racist or abusive people up or carry knives. It's not you know, none of us was it was impossible to police that. Yeah. We've allowed ourselves to think we have no control. Because we as adults have no control. Therefore we can't possibly control our kids. I heard people yesday on the radio actually saying, oh this is going to be really painful and difficult for young people hing whoop Let it be hard for your kids. Let it be hard for us adults. This should be challenging. Of course, it's going to be difficult Of course there are people that are going to avoid the ban. Of course there are people that are going to sidest step it. O of course there are going to be parents that don't give a shit, right? That's just like that's just the truth But schools have to stop using Online platforms to teach our children. Yeah. They have to stop using teams to communicate with our kids. We as parents have to stop saying that we're not in control of this anymore We as parents have to stop modeling one behaviour while preaching another. If your kids walk in the bedroom, first thing in the morning and you and your partner are on your phones looking at your phones and you say good morning What message Is that sending? Yeah where the value is you've seen that brilliant social media video. It's a girl in her bedroom when her mum comes up and tells her off and this girl goes Ion't wait t I'm out on and I can do what I want. And then she slams the door And then the next shot is like five' five or six different shots. and it says, doing what I want and it's two adults sitting on a sofver staring at a phone. An adult on a park bench staring at a phone. An adult at the beach staring at her phone An adult on the tube staring at a phone, four mates out for dinner staring at a phone. can't waitil I'm out and I can do what I want notot even we are able to control our need to pick up a phone Not even me. My pickups are like three hundred a day. three hundred times a day. I still the need to pick up my phone You're much better than me. You mentioned Adlex Greenood, should we hear from her This was a really powerful moment in the interview where Soort stopped in my attackaxs, took my breath away, partly because my daughter who had come along with me to the record that day She looks up to Alex and to hear her describe the impact of what social media did to her as a young successful athlette. is workers are all reflecting on Is she is one of the great lionesses of English football. Freamb obsessed with with want to achieve what are setled to achieve and also as well, I think probably at like fourteen, fifteen when you become a woman Your body starts to change slightly and point you're seeing pictures of yourself and you're like How' that I want to love him sort of body conscious about certain things and then baffles then into eating habits and It becomes like a slippery slope to be honest, and You have to grab it quick enough before it gets out of hand and I see a lot. I see a lot of with females because I around them a lot. with've body image and comments that people say about it on social media or have a perception of the way you are, how you look you don't have a choice of a picture that's posted on social media and Some people choose to read, some people don't, and probably gone off on a really raber hole of what you asked me, but I think it comes back to The hard work probably crossed the line of that a little bit more than the real reason why I was doing it, which was to be the best footballer it could be I wonder whether that changed anything in your daughter's mind after she heard that You know what, Alex was fantastic. Like when my daughter came with me, she came in and she saw it as almost like a real responsibility to be brilliant role model. So we were going into the interview and she came back and said to my daughter, Are you going to be here when we finish? And do I said, Yes, and she said to have a proper chat with you then and then true to word, We finish the interiew she wushed then And she must have spent twenty minutes talking to her daughter about herer interest, what she liked about how She could maintain her enthusiasm for her sports. She was just the embodiment of what you would want hero to be for somebody. So I think that she looks up to Alex and therefore to listen to the way that she described this is a really powerful one that she's not some knee jerk reactionist, She's thoughtful considered. and if she's suggesting that this isn't helpful for young girls. Whever we to argue I love that for Rose. Um play a clip as well becausecause I know that for young girls particularly when it comes to body image, there are some serious questions that social media has to answer But there's real issue for boys as well and Jonathan Hite spoke about The real world issues that boys have when it comes to being online and being connected, have a listen So there you go, Jonathan Knight talking about video games, talking about porn I mean, that line there they blow out their dopamine circuits early I was talking to a friend about the social media ban He said I'm not sure we're gonna to do it in our house because our kids aren't addicted to social media and I have to say like Of all the things we do, it makes them so happy to be online Reck can makes them happy to be online me because it's feeding their dopamine addiction. that their mobile phones and their tablets have given them And I think we don't We don't understand this, therefore we don't see the problem with it best way to describe this to you, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, what is this talk about dopamine addiction Every time And we've all been there, you sit there having dinner all I mean, one of the bad things for me is watching a film. I don't know how many times I feel I need to pick up a phone when I'm watching a film. you add an excuse, which is I'm just finding out about an actor like I never used to have to Google the age of an actor thirty years ago or find out what other films they'd been in. Do you know what I mean? Or if I'm watching season five of On Murders in the buildilding, you know my kids will have to have to go straight on the internet to find out when seeason sixix is being released. It's not anything you don't care, but you have the need, the deep requirement to lift up a device So I think people don't understand that every time we reach for our phones, it's this injection of dopamine. and our body is saying, o, I'm not feeling that happy reach for your phone and cheer me up. Therefore Yes, your kids are happy when they're looking at a device. But the flip side of that is that your children sink into a depression, a lull or a lull when they're not looking at a device And we've had parents are't you're the same where our kids have wanted to be be on a phone and we've said no, they've been like crack addicts. They've been like screaming at us, curled up in a ball on the floor. The world's unfair. You're the worst parents ever only want a message my friends. likeike genuinely almost shaking with the need to pick up you can relate to that. Yeah, I mean, there was a blliant clip on Bakfast television yesterday where the reporter was responding to Stamm's press conference she there was a group of kids out in the classroom and she said, how many of you are happy with this social media ban? and not one of them, they were all furious about it And then in the same classroom she went to the the pastoral care manager And said what do you think about her And she was like, I am so delighted this issue, I get parents coming in, I get kids coming in, I get teachers coming in and tell and she gave you the full tsunami of the impacts that Kids having phones at this young age, he's calling for her and she sees the stuff that happens in the shadows. You got lots of kids. The kids were furious and it reminded me of Germman Jamie Oy did his big campaign for school dinners and he used a great analogy. He said He said if you ask kids, what do you want to read in English that's dead They want to read porwn magazines because it's easy, but they don't want to eat Shakespeare because it requres a bit of effort and even sh's in the allalogy that. Cf course kids want to eat burgers and turkey twwizzlers at lunchtime rather than having something nutritional and healthy for them Gre asking a group of kids are happy with this? Of course you're going to say no, because it's It's easy access dopamine hits But that's why we don't let kids choose their own reading on the English curriculum. That's why choose what they eat thinners and l times because we want them to have Healthy a healthy balance and it's up to us as adults in this situation to intervene and go off course you would want this because you see that sort of addadict responds when he's taken off them It's our job as a responsible adult in this to go, No no, we're drawing a line for you It's so interesting and as we draw this to a close, I know what you'll be thinking as parents, you'll be thinking please help me. how do we deal with this One very practical thing that we've done in our family, we now have a lock boox. I mean well, it's a box that just locks our phones away. We can't have access to them for an hour or so so we say right for the next hour, no one has their phone in they go into the box. And obviously if there's an emergency, you can access it if you need to. but we don't have them. That's God But Jonathan Ht has got four norms to sort of practically frame this and I'll just share those with you. And then I think you've got to a statement from smartphone Free childhood, which we'd like to read out So Jonathan Hight says, and this is great advice for all of you listen to this. No smartphone fore before the age of fourteen. No social media beforefore the age of sixteen Phone free schools M independence and free play in the real world. And you know what? I think people look at those and Pretty radical, no phones at school, no social media for sixteen.. That's literally our life only ten, fifteen years ago this So Joonn Vite said something really interesting, he said, You know, human beings have been around for thousandousand of years This has only been an issue for the last ten Yeah, we're acting like it's our everything This is just a man made creation of the last few years. Let's unpick it as we created it. And smartphone free childhood have done so much great work on this. They're a respected body parents who really care about their kids, I think we should end with a with a quote from them because I know you've been talking to them Well, I love them. They're a grassroots movement and U About five years ago, I was tempted to go to my kid's school and speak to her The head teacher about my worry about use of smartphones and it wasn't the right time. It was always like, you know, it wasn't an issue, and nothing ever happened. And then when we interviewed John H He gave us access to a letter that he could submit. and again I took it to the kids schools and gave him The evidence from him and nothing changed. So when I saw smartphone throughree childhood, this grassroots organization of Concerned parents, They sort of mobilized and did it in such an effective way They've been central to getting change They've been central to getting the law changed So I contacted Daisy Greenwell, one of the founders aggressive and One of the founders of smartphone free childhood Just to congratulate her yesterday and I asked if she wanted to share anything. for our listeners and If you'll allow me, I just like to read out what Daisy responded. She said Smartphone forld childhood began because parents could see something wasn't right We were watching childhood change before our very eyes. It was last play Less independence, more anxiety, more distraction and more children struggling under the weight of devices and platforms that were never designed with their well being in mind What started as conversations around kitchen tables and in playgrounds has become a movement of hundreds of thousands of families choosing to delay smartphones and social media. to create the sort of childhood We believe all kids deserve Yesterday's announcement of a social media bomb for under sixteenens is a huge step forward and a testament to the power hevens, teachers and young people being willing to speak up The reason change is now on the table is because ordinary people refuse to accept this was simply the way things had to be But this band isn't a silver bullet It'll only work if the movement to protect childhood from the excesses of big tech continues If listeners care about this issue, the most important thing they can do is to keep the conversation going with their children, with other parents, with their schools and with governments. Because the goal isn't just policy change culture change It's a future where everyone understands that childhood should be shaped by families, communities and real world experiences by algorithms, clicks, and likes We want to give children back the things that no app can provide. play Presence, confidence connection and the chance to grow up at their own pace That's the future we're building towards and together We can make it. reality rilliant brii well done them Thank you very much and If you want to know what happens when your phone explodes not literally but figuratively, well, the Liam Lawson conversation. The racing Blls driver is out on Monday and you will hear exactly what it's like for someone to go from racing driver to internet sensation overnight and not how amazing it felt how it stole so much of his joy. and happiness. And if that isn't a salient tale for you listening to this then I don't know what is. So C I highlight? Yeah of course that won't be on the record, but I think it's been making me laugh since we did it was Liam's a keing guitarist and he spoke to us about how he brings joy into his life And he played as a clip any of him learning a new song Oh what did light did was Both seized on the fact that we recognizeed the song byy the frank How to say Yeah. By the way, I mean, Liam Lawson has got an unbelievable singing voice. Oh, beautiful. yeah. I mean, I said, you know, would you ever do this professionally? He sort of scoffed and laughed that didn't he? But I was genuinely like He has a really beautiful voice. But what made me laugh was our desperations were a bit like we Oh Weere your m. We knew No, it was more the fact that we knew the song