Defining High Performance and Purpose

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see Mor Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of highigh performance. We talk a lot on high performance about adversity, about what it takes to come back from the lowest moments of your life today's convers about a different kind of adversity. Young people who face illness, identity, and recovery all at once at the exact moment they should be stepping into life. My guests today are the legendary sailor, Dame Ella MacArthur, Frank Fletcher, CEO of Ella MacArthur Cancer Trust, and Josh Rands who's been helped by their charity. Between them, they've lived every side of the story, and they know what it means to build something that genuinely serves us And we're here talking about the support that's been possible thanks to players of postcode lottery I think maybe we should just begin with each of you giving us maybe twenty seconds. about yourselves and why you find yourselves sitting in the high performance studio today and my My professional life was sailing and through sailing I met a French charity that took young people sailing and recover free from cancer and leukemia and That day will stay with me for the rest of my life because it had such a profound effect on me And as a result of that, I created Ell Mcarrths Cancer Tusterreat Frank So I've worked with young people in the outdoors for almost all of my work in life and then I knew Ellen many, many years ago. before and I went around the world and then We talked about the E McAf Count' Trust and I got involved and it's been one of the You know, the greatest things in my life to be involved in this amazing organisation. So yeah, I'm incredibly lucky I Wake up every morning and I'm excited to go to work. That's true high performance, right Hey Josh. H. So for me, it was about getting diagnosed with synovial sarcoma, which is a rare soft tissue cancer at the age of nineteen And yeah, going through different forms of therapy and treatments to try and yeah, have a positive outcome and then it was about meeting there these great Ellen MacArthur Can' Trust to thenart rebuilding my life and reffinding my confidence after yeah, nearly a year of quite quite a tricky dime. And mate that rebuild is so fascinating. We're going to talk about that in detail. but Maybe we should then begin, you've already mentioned it very briefly. the kind of moment where this entire journey started was you sailing with those young people. takeake us back to that. It was year two thousand, I think, wasn't it? Yeah. so I was actually the first person we ever employed in my sailing project years ago, this was back in probably nineteen ninety eight. Her brother had leukemia and he had become involved with a French charity called Achac Soncat and that took young people in recovery from cancer sailing And because I knew Maureen and I've got to meet her brother, she said, Would I go sailing with this charity And I remember going to France. It was in Brest actually, my first time. There was a group of boats all with young people on I remember going down there, and I jumped to the chance and I said, Yes, I would. But as I got there, I felt really, really nervous because my French wasn't brilliant These were young people that You know, I was in my early twenties. I'd never really worked with young people before, not as Frank has, for example. So that was a bit different for me. And these are young people who were in recovery from cancer. And I was so nervous. I thought what am I going to say How am I gonna, you know, how am I going to be with the young people I'm going to be able to communicate with them and literally within five minutes of setting foot on that boat, I was having more fun than I'd had in so long They were amazing. They were such an inspiration. It was just a absolute joy and privilege to spe time with him And it had such an effect on me that I kept in touch with many of those young people. W they young cancer survivors? So the young people who were finishing or had finished treatment So post predominantly post treatment, somewh were you know ongoing. predominantly post treatment. and They were just The epitome of bravery for me and So I kept in touch with many of them when I went around the world the first time in the Vonde Globe Lots of them came down from hospitals in France to the start. We had a competition designing a boat like mine, but the young people all painted the boats. They all came down to see that I had a plaque on the boat with a hundred of their names on which I sailed around the world with, I communicated with them whilst I was at sea And then when I came back The last thing I did before I went to bed the day of the finish was to go on a coach with Probably fifty kids from Strasbourg hospital And they'd come all the way from the hospital with the doctors and nurses to come and see me finish the Vonde Globe. And I went ont to this coach to see them. And I'll never ever forget that. It was the last thing I did before going to bed onn the day of the finish of the Vonde Gobe. was amazing. Asolutely amazing. What was it that you'd seen in these young people that moved you so much You know, when you're doing what I did. You get As lots and lots of questions. You know, journalists, what doess it feel like all the time and You know, so many people say, you know, you're so brave, you're so brave And what I felt was, were you not, no, you're not brave when you choose it If you choose it, that's not bravery, it's perhaps stupidity. It's a crazy thing to do to go around the world on your own. There's a high chance that you might die. and you know, it's a dangerous thing to do. And if it's hard, it's kind of on your head be it because you wanted to do it Those young people, they didn't chse it They didn't choose it at all. And to go through something that you don't choose that's harder than you can imagine and come out the other side and smile Bravery And that really hit me really, really profoundly. And you made your name by doing stuff solo, right? By being on your own, by having isolation, by being cut off from the rest of the world, which is why people would described you as brave Yeah, you've taken bunch of young people and you've almost done the opposite with them, right? You've put them into an encosed space You've given them something they can't escape from You've got them with a bunch of other young people as well did what do you think that experience of sailing might have done for them Well, first of all, it's not really about sailing and you used three words there when I was you using them just maybe you were talking about conffined space, it's not it's freedom because it's the sea it' all there. I mean, I see the opposite. You see confined space. I see, om look at that world. It's all around. We can point the boat in any. That's why you do what you do and I do what I do.Qite probably, And also, but Two things. One is, although what you saw of what I did was me on my own, the reality is Absolutely the opposite. You work with an incredible team of people to design a boat, to build a boat, to prepare a boat, you communicate with them whilst you're at sea U you really are with a team and To such an extent that when I finished my second round the world and crossed the line, I felt nothing Nothing until I got on the boat because We'd done it together I hadn't done it on my own. And when they got on the boat, we could celebrate what we'd achieved, but me alone notothing, really nothing. It was it felt deflated. actually relief, totally It was incredible. But then when they got on the boat, it was euphoria You could not have kind of changed things more. why you felt deflated at that moment? You're so exhausted. You've put everything in, you've made it and you just sit down and you're just like, I can't believe, can't believe I'm still here, I can't believe we've done it. It's just this relief, this overwhelming relief And then we celebrated. And then it was euphoric. It was absolutely Euruphoric. It was just an amazing feeling. So that team, that's what we get on the Cana Tross booats. You're with a group of people who get it For me, having done the Round the World Doz team members, they got it. They really knew what had gone into it. They really knew how hard it was Just the same as those young people on the boat. they get it. Everybody on the boat gets it. And just being amongst that group of people who really get it is so, so precious becausecause no one has to say anything, but if they do, it's understood So interesting. and I'm pleased that we've actually stumbled across this conversation about teamwork in a world where you've become famous for doing things solo, right? You're telling us that you haven't really And teamwork is where all the magic lies right in this life We've created a foundation for highigh performance because I believe that charity is so vital. but it's so hard And you need so many people around you all the time. And that's where you come into this conversation, Frank as the CEO of The Ellen MacArthur Cancer Trust I'm really interested in getting the truth from you about what it's actually like running a charity because Ellen can have this great idea. She can be moved by these young people. you can have this grand vision for how you want to help change the world But then there's the daily grind of actually the demands of being in the charitable sector Would you want us to understand about that So it is really hard, know, and it's particularly hard you know, at the moment and it has been for, you know, if you look back at all the thingsings that have happened in the world in the last five, ten years, you know every time you feel like the world's getting a little bit calmer, something else happens. But I think just coming back to what I've said at the beginning in the introduction, I think it is slightly different because it matters. So I think if you u You know, there's this there's this vision that running a charity is really easy and we're all really gentle and we g every morning and we'd have meditation and then we're all very nice to each other and You know, we' leave at three o'clock and go home. and actually I think charities are leaner and um, you know, are more focused than most businesses because we have to be U so For us, our big challenge is funding. Um Because actually that's what makes the difference. If we have more money, we can work with more young people. So twelve young people today will hear the news that they have cancer And there'll be twelve more tomorrow and twelve more the day after that and twelve more the day after that. And you know, the challenge for us, the first challenge for us is to raise the funds to to be able to support those young people. And then there's lots of other challenges as well. and that's really helped by orrganizations like the Postcode Ltery, their funding is unrestricted. That makes a real difference when peopleople come to you and say it we trust you. We know that you know what you're doing So we're going to support you, but we're not going to support you and tell the you that you have to spend it on X or Y. actuallyctually, we're going to leave you as the experts. you know, there's a very famous analogy about, you know, people want to buy, you know, someone comes on to a charity and says, I want to do X and I always use the tablecloth analogy, which is someone comes along and says, I want to buy you a tablecloth. you ever haven't got table Yeah, but a tablecloth looks really nice. So I'm going to give a tablecloth and they give you a tablecloth and they say there's that funding, but it's restricted and you have to buy a tablecloth with it. And actually what you need is you don't need the tablecoth, you need the table underneath. So you know, running running charities is hard. but I think, you know, Charities make a difference and when you make a difference, gives you that motivation to work really hard at all of the little bits that build up and make it. And again, you know, Ellen talked about team it's all about team. you know, we have an amazing team at Em Mcalf Countcs Trust But we also have an amazing team of volunteers Volunteers like Josh, you know, Josh was supported by us as a young person But Josh is now volunteer as an adult We have over two hundred and fifty of those volunteers. We have a big team of about twenty four, twenty five people And it becomes a team effort and that makes a really big difference Amazing. Well,, I wanted to have this conversation because I believe as I'm sure all three of you around this table do that Charityities what can to make a genuine difference to people's lives, right It's there when other people aren't and other services aren't. and you know from personal experience, Josh, how that feels Um Would you tell us your story? Yeahes, so my story started that you know I'd left school and got a job and it was kind of what would consider the traditional path what you thought,, growing up and being an adult was and you know the everyday success looks like from the outside and then started to have some symptoms of issues in my leg and then went to a specialist and then got referred to the specialist specialist And then at that point you start to think this is probably not going to be even if the best outcome is probably not going to be a good outcome. So yeah after significant tests and all of this W you' been poorly for a while? No, I was probably the fittest and most healthiest had been but I had a growth within my hip and pelvis in my legs. And it started to show it and Being kind of yeah, eighteen, nineteen, I'd kind of thought there's more important things like, you know, next promotion at work and that kind of life goals were more important However, that kind of traditional view on what was important came crashing down And then yeah, diagnosed with Cynovial sarcoma, which is very rare. soft tissue cancer and it's all interweaving into my hip and into my bone my in my leg, which you know, at the time, I thought This is quite Um Yeah, it's just quite unusual. L I' never thought I'd be person who got cancer I never thought I'd be in that fight And fight is a really bad way to put it, but there's no good way to put it. That fight for your own life Everyone else on the outside is suffering more than you in some ways because they're seeing you go through it. and I think through my chemotherapy and that which is quite Brucele at times you know, I set myself ten rules that, you know, cancer won't define me. Th like I shave my own head because I wasn't going to have the chemo make me lose my hair. I also had think about always being kind to the staff, you know they don't want to be poking you and putting you more than you need to be. So you know, always be kind, even really small things like bringing in a box of donoughnuts for the nurses because actually they're watching you go through it. They're seeing you, you know suffer as well. They don't want you suffering and they try and make it as easy as possible. So about being kind and also some other ones around just not letting, you no special diets. I found everyone And you know, all aunties, uncles and friends of the family that you haven't heard from them that suddenly appeared, going, o, you need to try, I don't know, avocados every morning and they'll make you feel better actually. The challenge was just to eat have enough to get through the day. And then yeah, through chemotherapy and then radiotherapy, every day at the hospital. And then again, you learn to you get focused so much on the day, just get through today you know, find the little joy in today like It might it might be a really bad day. You might feel really sick A actually at points I couldn't be sick. It was just dry heaving for hours, which was yeah quite a testing on the resilience. And then, you know, radiotherapy and then I had very extensive surgery to salvage my leg. so at the hospital, which was amazing surgeon and all that very fortunate. and it was all through the NHS. So very fortunate to have that support there And the surgeon gets to the document and says the risk and he says, you know, if it goes well, you'll still have a leg doesnn't go well your legs coming off. and I'm sitting there in the ward waiting and It was an adult ward and I sitting there is, you know, nineteen year old in Pretty much everyone on the ward of twelve, everyone had surgery, and they were missing arms, missing legs, and I'm sitting there thinking Kky, this is, you know, quite quite a serious thing and then through then surgery, you know never expected, you know, you think as of three, two, three, year old, you learned to walk but I was having to reearn to walk at the age of eighteen, nineteen or nineteen twenty. and it's not something I'd ever put in my head. and you know Waking up from surgery There was about twenty doctors around in Pokemy proddomy telling me that they'd removed a six to seven kilo tumor that hadd been interweving in my nerves within my arteries and veins. So That was kind of then the rehabilitation post surgery. It was all very much like I know I have to get through today. If I get through today, there's tomorrow and it was always about looking for tomorrow However, then once you finish this treatment, You then just have this day and you go, well, what's tomorrow? There's no agenda. I'm not a hospital I'm not anywhere else and suddenly What have been your life for six months a year just stops And then reality starts to then set in. This is the element that I really want to talk about with you. I mean, for a start, we've had over four hundred conversations, right on high performance And I'm often asked by people, what's the one thing that links together all of the people that have been on your show? And I say They are optimists. they are the light in the room. They believe that regardless of how hard a day is or how hard a week is or how bad the news is they've received that they'll be okay that they'll get through it. but they do it by spreading it to other people. They walk in this room, they walk into our production office and You know when they're a guest on the show. done incredible things because they just have that energy about them and you have exactly the same energy I love hearing when you are in your darkest moment that you got your joy or your optimism from doing things for other people, which I think is Such a great lesson for people listening to this. If you can be of service to others, it can remove so much of your own anxiety But then for someone that hasn't been on the journey you have I would think to myself the moment that someone says, you're all clear, that's just pure joy and that joy never leaves you. I think it's really important that we talk about the fact that that's not actually alwaysways the realities is So let's go a bit deeper on this moment then. when you When you are giving the all clear, it doesn't maybe feel like you thought. Yeah, especially I think a lot of other people that I've spoken to donon't actually get an all clear. They just go You know, the surgery was good, the margins were good. You know, we'll see you in three months. There was never an all clear. There was no, you know, you talked about that kind of feeling of deflated or and, you know, there was no celebration for me. It was like Okay, you know, there's no big bell to ring for me. It was just, we'll see you every three months for the next three years And then we'll see for the next five years after that, every six months. And so there's never this because it was so rare and so complicated And the probability of it coming back was quite significantly high probably higher than some other tumors that you know there was never at all clear for me. And it will always be there as something that may come back. and you know through the surveillance and that, hopefully, you know it will be picked up early if it did. There was no euphoric party. And I hope other people do get that euphoric moment. but for me It wasn't reality. Reality was You're still in recovery, you then need to start Building back your life, building back your confidence Finding who you are because suddenly what you thought, you know It doesn't exist anymore, the values you had and what you thought success was suddenly just compareing to nothing because it was about fighting fight that no one ever wants to fight and you don't choose to be, but equally For me when it came, it wasn't something I was afraid of It was about just looking forward and taking the days and taking the steps in China show the suffering so then no one else had to suffer as much it's about just always being positive and looking forward. So there was no all clear. And still today, I see the surgeon regularly for checkups and it's all positive But I also understand that when I first started my first chemotherapy, there's amazing young lady who started it on the same day as me And then unfortunately, the prognosis for her wasn't as positive as mine was, and that's also reality Not everyone gets an all clear. And that's something that I think, you know It's easy to kind of feelill there and say Oh, I got through it b you also need to remember that You know, I don't believe in luck, but My dice rolled that day and through my treatment, it came out positive for me and that's not always the case I think what Josh talks about about at the end of treatment is something that we've heard so much and over the last twenty three years, which is A actuallyct for a lot of young people, you the whole focus of their life during treatment is to get free treatment So you know, if you're a boy in leukemia, that treatment might last for three years, you know, or it might be sureort to if you've got a , you know, solid or soft tumour That actually for that moment, all you focus on is I have to get through treatment, I have to finish. I want to get to through treatment. And actually the reason the Ellen Mc Garf getst trrust there, one of the reasons we're there is so many young people get to the end of that and go And you know, Josh and I've talked many times about this and you know, we've seen it so many times, peopleeople get to the end and go What do I do now? Now what? Yeah, exactly out now what. As Josh was talking, I was thinking when you're going through treatment, you have so much structure around you you know, structure physical in support from those close to you and the nurses and the doctors, but also structure from a diary perspective, You know, you're going to be here then, you're going to be here then you're going to be here then. and not just you, but your whole family working around that. Once your treatment ends, that structure doesn't completely fall away But it starts to fall away because suddenly it's a big gap now until the next thing or a big and you've been so kind of Driven is completely the wrong word, but you've been Yeahah, focus and everyone around you and family and friends How's Josh, You know, how's Josh, How's Josh? And actually not kind of so much you know, how are you or what have you done today? or what did you do last weekend? It's almost the normal conversations. I've heard this so many times. They're just not there. because everybody wants to focus on how Josh is doing. But what Josh wants is a bit of normality. He wants to talk about the football or whatever he's interested in. You know, it's that''s it almost kind of takes you out of normality. And is that what the trust did for you when you first got the opportunity to be with them was a bit of normality a chance, have different conversations in a different setting with maybe people that you could relate to. Yeah, so I was supported by Young Lars versus Cancer, which is a great charity as well and doing very different but similarly pathway aligned to Ella MacArthur Cancer Trust. And my social worker Laura was coming to the end and we did the mental health kind of well beinging and we looked into it and she was like, you know You've had all your independence taken from you because suddenly, you know hospitals were picking your diary. you were then, you know, my Christmas over one of my Christmases during treatment was that, you know, I had Christmas and booxing day at home, then on the twenty seventh of December went into hospital to have some chemotherapy as an inpatient. And then I managed to come out just the day before my birthday in early January and soen suddenly your diary is just dictated to by hospital and you've lost all this independence and confidence And then What was nice was Laura said She said that, you know, why don't you try this trip? And I was very much against doing a cancer club activity. I' turn down other things. just I wasn't willing to be defined by canncer. Lura just said What have you got to lose You've been through enough you know, your worst day on the Ellen MacArthur trip can't be as bad as the other days I've seen you have here. So why don't you just do it and see what happens? And From first meeting other young people, it was actually a sense of belonging and you just check your cancer at the door Be it's a known, everyveryone's been there, everyone understands it, and everyone's journey is so different. everyveryone understands that, you know You've had a rough ride, but actually You're still a human under there And actually, you know, your parents asking you how you feeling every hour in case you're going to be sick is gone It's suddenly this independence back of actually I can help myself, I can meet new people and I have a community that understands me and that sense of belonging I think I've never found it anywhere else. Success isn't just about one big headline moment, right? It's about the thousands of small victories happening every single day. And that's what postcode lotottery is all about. Just by playing, you're making a real impact across communities, whether it's a breakfast club, helping kids start their day with the fuel they need to learn, a youth programme, building confidence in young people or mental health services supporting someone when they need it most. These are the moments that matter. These are the moments that make a real difference to real people When you play the Postcode lotottery, you're not just supporting a lottery. you're helping fund these life changing programs. You're part of a bigger movement of shared victories of communities winning together. If you want to see how this funding is making a difference in communities, click the link in the description to learn more about powering hope together. Postcode Lottery manages lotteries for twenty charities, a minimum of thirty percent of each ticket price goes to charity. eighteen plus conditions apply not available in Northern Ireland What that you see happening between the young people when you're observing them quietly on the boat I think the most incredible thing is seeing a young person arrive and leave you see a group of Not always, but often introvert quiet. U unsure. not so much confidence arrive barely speaking or quQuietly speaking four days later when they leave C other them up It is unbelievable. They are so full of joy and life and laughter and so often over the years and we've been going Well over twenty years now We'll get a letter from a parent saying, thank you for giving us our son or daughter back You know, in less than a week and because they found themselves again And as Josh said, you see these young people step away, they step out of it. you know, they cook on the boat, they clean you know, we're living on a boat together young people do the cooking. You know we do sailing, you can get involved or not. It's not about sailing, but the environment that exists on that boat with a group of young people in a Quite an intimate space. really works. And some trips talk about the cancer? someome trips don't. The outcome is relevant. And do the young Do the young people decide what gets discussed?ot someone on the boat.s now we're going to have. And that's really important. There is no sitting around with bean bags talking about cancer. And I think what Ellen says and what you've picked up on and Josh, you know, I know you'll have a view on this. It's really important that young people decide So you know, I've I've been on shipps where You know, young people have had really important conversations and I remember many years ago was I had my back to a group of young people I was doing the washing up. And they were having a conversation about fertility, which is a big issue for young people after cancer treatment And you know, they didn't need an adult in that conversation. In fact, the last thing they needed was an adult in that conversation and definitely a at the time a forty year old man, now fifty year old man involved. but actually equally, I wanted to make sure they were okay. So I had my back there and I spent an hour washing up one mug because I wanted to make sure they were okay, but I also wanted to leave them to have that conversation because they were having the conversation. They were all in their early twenties You know, they knew all of the they knew all the facts. But they needed to have a conversation with other people who really got it But then equally you'll have young people who come on a trip and they don't want to talk about their cancer. They want to talk about everything else. They want to And that's led entirely by the young people. And that's incredibly important that that is young person led. Actually, our team don't make that happen or not make that happen actually we just support young people to create this environment where They can decide, I don't know if you see that Josh when you volunteer now and or whether you felt that at the time, but Yeah, massively. And for me, it was about these conversations with other people. they understand you. And the trust is there is kind of a a safety net that if it gets too much, there's always other you know, guidance and support that they can offer you and push you in the right directions. but You know, it's when you' sitting around haaving a cup of tea and you're sitting there sailing or something and someone starts to go It might be something really benign. they'll start talking about a pain or something they're find it more difficult and then suddenly it open up into a conversation about people's experiences with cancer as well as also coping mechanisms and other things that they've found that might have worked. So for me, There was a conversation I had with someone who also had a sarcoma and they'd had surgery And they would find they had issues with their scar and it was about rolling a tennis ball on it which can help soften up the scar. I'm no medical expert either. so it works for me. And you know, things like that where you're talking about cancer, but you know, it's about other parts of you as well You know, I think it also most happens around Uno. and things like that. there's Uo is a great opportunity to m down anything. I have quite a few rows over Uo as well over the years, I'll be honest. The rules You can't do that. Yes, you can. What? What Uno rules are you playing by? I know also U becausecause I've worked for a long time as a vice president of of young Acess' cancer or click Sgent as it was before We would speak a lot about loneliness for people who are going through this journey, eighty percent of young people experience it. Did you and was this tripper moment really brought you back into the fold Yeah, I think loneliness is something that I definitely suffer from and maybe not at the time because you're so engrossed in it, you know friendriends either I cut them off or just went vacant and actually You soon learn that actually most of the people in your life are sounds awful but passengers on a separate journey and then the few core people are always going to be there and very fortunate that you know I had a really great best mate who flew in, who lived overseas, flew in just to turn up to take me away for a couple of days and to kind of keep some kind of you know, young lad culture and kind of it the didn't let that kind of didn't give me a day's rest with the banter and things like that. So that' really important as well. But also it' struggled with relationships, suddenly you know, my relationship at the time just fell apart because I was so focused on of getting better and that and it was like actually have the energy to do one of these things fully But I can't do both of them. So loneliness and also you know isolating yourself because you don't upset other people and bring other people in and whereas On the trips, you suddenly find Well actually, you've been through this, you understand it. you might have lost relationships or had tensions and things like that. And it's about For me what the trust does what that first trip did take you away from the cancer. as well as you know people saying about mental health, mental wellbeing. It also then gave me the courage to then someone else talked about their struggles, gave me the confidence to then go back and say, actually, I think my mental health's been affected by it And then also, you know look at it and then say, yeah I'm willing to now ask for help. Whereas I think before, I never would have asked for help. I would have been like, okay, That's the cance door, shut, close the garage door, lock it up and we go goes on and then actually Everything had changed, but I wasn't willing to admit it probably as much until I came on the trip And so other people who had been through it and had taken themselves further than I was willing to take myself at the time. Should we talk about mental well beinging then because this is obviously incredible anecdotal evidence of a young person saying I did it and it was really helpful But I know as a charity, it's so important for you to evidence the impact that you have on young people to document that evidence because again, people that are going to fund your work They want to know that this genuinely works. So What? What data do you have that this makes a genuine difference to the lives of young people Yeah, so it's been a really important part of what we've done over the last five years. So I think if you go back Before that five years, we had what I call vanity metrics So we had a big tagline that said rebuilding young people's confidence. So we'd bring young people down for four days put them on a boat that said rebuilding young people's confidence on it. We had it written on the wall where they did the welcome. It was written on all of our clothing. And then at the end of the week, we'd ask them, know have we rebuilt your confidence and surprise, surprise?ty eight percent of them said, yes, we've rebuilt your confidence. And it was a completely completely You know, had no had no basis. No scientific. No scientific basis. And it didn't teach us anything that didn't tout us think. so we But you felt it. Yeah, you did feel that and knew it. You knew it. you couldn't prove it You could touch it. you knew it. youutely becausecause it sounds like, you know becausecause you could you know, the first trip, you could feel it. Yeah. Immediately. Yeah. So you could feel it but you couldn't prove it. No, you're absolutely right. That's. It is really important. And if you bought a funder down And you showed them it, they'd get it. But you couldn't prove it. So about five years ago, we started to think about Actually, one we need to prove this But also we need to improve it. So we do slightly different types of trips and we do trips up on the west coast of Scotland in Lags and we do trips in cows and then we do some other trips all around the country. And We didn't know whether our trip that we were running here in this way was any better than what we were doing here and what we could learn from this So we we've been for the last five years using something called the Warwick, Edinburgh Wb and scale which is an academically rigorous and it's used by lots of people all around the country. and you have to use it under license and you have to do things in a very specific way But that actually measures, you know, it was created by Warwick and Edinburgh University. That actually measures the improvement that you are making or not making in young people's well being. And so we see you know an average improvement, seventy two percent of young people improve their well being most of them by about twelve percent But what's really interesting for us is now we've got five years data. We can now look at it and go What we're doing here We're seeing a difference here from here and it allows you to be curious And you're right, Ell and you can feel it, But as we've grown, it's not possible for us to be everywhere at once. So what we're now able to do is to look at this data and go, whyy are we seeing that? Why are we seeing that This is having more of an effect on this bit of well beinging Be we've got enough data now and what could we change up here? what could we do differently So yeah, so we use this Warwick in for a well being scale and we can really see the difference. and we can use that one to improve what we're doing and secondly to prove what we're doing. And actually, we see a sustained impact. So we actually go back and we ask people the same We use the same tool three months later And we are still seeing a positive effect three months later, which forver You know, an intervention that lasts four or five days is actually very unusual. so valuable And the other thing we did with that day is we were completely transparent. So we have a live dashboard where that data goes up, so E McCAfcantsrust or forward sllash impact. and anyone can go and see the data and we don't touch the data So it literally it goes straight there and and you know, anyone can go and dig in and you can filter it and you can see the difference. And I think that being transparent about the difference you're making and not just having those vanity metrics that you make you feel good, but don't prove anything and don't show anything is really important But yeah, you could feel Ellen, youre absolly it's not that we've changed what we're doing. We've just changed how we're measuring it and how we're making sure that we're still making that impact year on year and What if we twist this a little bit? What if we do this slightly differently? Can we improve it? and we can try that here and then compare it to what we're doing here and that really allows you to Keep improving what you're doing. Well it's another that's another key tenant to high performance, right? The ideda of constantly exploring, wanting to be proved wrong, realizing that what looked great a week or a day or a month ago might not look great in a day a week or a month and celebrating the fact that you're evolving all the time. And I think it is really important when we talk about charities in this way It's not a case of them helping you to do things slightly better or slightly differently or allowing a M people to come on trips, it's like This stuff doesn't happen without without funding, without the money I love that you've stumbled across something that is totally different. and Ive sort of felt like all my years in charity. I've seen everything you can offer young people So soon as I read a few weeks ago about the A trrusters like now, this is doing something totally different So we should just call out the postcode lottery and really be clear about what they've actually allowed you to do. I'm just going to say, it's been a really long term relationship with the postcode lottery. mean when we started off working together It was saailing clothing and a van. You know, now it's truly game changing. Everything great starts small. But we've grown with them. They were only just set up here in the UK and we've got to know them very well over the years, but that funding is Mly game changing, as Frank said, core funding is so hard to get Everyone will support, well not everyone, but it's easier to get funding for a shiny project, but just to run the organisation, which is behind all the measurements, all the metrics, getting the young people under the water, what we do is harder to fund. And that funding underpins everything we do. It's our insurance policy. It enables us to plan for next year in a way that without that, we just couldn't And we've done some really exciting projects because of it. So we have a base now on the West coast of logs. We would never have opened that base on the West cooast of Lgs without postcode lotottery. That was the big, you know, they've done some really Great support of us in some quite small ways, As you say, everything great style small And then actually we were, you know, we were taking young people from, you know, Glasgow, Edinburgh, In Venness. and we were putting them on an airplane, flying them across some of the best sailing in the country on the west coast of Scotland. brringing them down to Southampton, to then put them on a bus, to then put them on a ferry, to then put them on another bus to get them to our base in Cows on the Isle of Whitam' Madness But we would never have opened our base in logs if it hadn't been for postcode lottery. And the other thing that we've done with them You know, Josh talked about the fact that when he went in for surgery, you know, he didn't know whether He would come out with with his legs still in place and p please, Josh, you had such a great outcome we have lots of young people who have external prosthetics becausecause actually very sadly, the first way to treat a sarcoma is surgery and actually the most effective way sadly is surgery for a sarcoma, particularly in young people So we have lots of young people who have external prosthetics And as you f the Postgodo lottery, we have now have two yachts that we have adjusted Quite specifically for young people with those needs of being able, how do they step on and off a boat with a prostphhetic leg? How do they get round the boat with a prosthetic arm? On their own On their own their own Ellen. one hundred percent crucial. Absolutely. And there's no you know, in the past it was like people would have to help them. And you know, that's not what they want. That's not what we're about. That's not what we do So important. It's about what you can do not what you can't. so maximizing what you can do Yeah absolutely maximizing what you can do And how are you doing today I think It's It's a really tricky question introu You know I think I'm in a good place. I think that, you know Coming back as a volunteer gives new purpose to what what I do in life as well and gives new energy. I think the lessons learen through both the trust as well as through my life's journey kind of leaves me in a strong place. And I think, you know, looking forward, it's about, you know sailing with with the trust Eam Carth Trust in a few weeks in in the Isle of White, which is going to be great. againain coming back as a volunteer. And as Ellen said, you take these young people on the day one, the bus is quiet. comoming back on the Thursday or Friday, you're there as a volunteer, trying and have a half hour sleep between service stops., they've not stopped talking. And I think you know, if you'd be willing, why don't you come down for a day as well come down and see the magic. We talk about it, but as well from donors perspectives that, you know It's easy to look at the brief and go, Kk are they do an amazing thing until you sit there on a boat and you could just sit there at the back, not say anything all day and just sit there having cups of tea at the back of the boat And then you'll see the magic for yourself I think if you've got time in the summer, sounds amazing. I think you should do it. and you know you know I'm sure it's easy to make happen. And yeah, see the magic for yourself. So let me fall in guys. fall if you won't fall.our questions early. You be all cooked up on a vote? Eactly. I'll stand. Yeah. D just se your I just think when Josh talks about coming as a volunteer and he's coming back to cell with a cancer test, I think there's something really, really important that I've witnessed in that. that when we started, Young people would come on the boat and they would be with young people and adult volunteers, doctors and nurses and sailors, you know, like Frank and I skippering the boats What we now have is volunteers. adults who had cancer as a child kids with cancer or young people with cancer, they meet other young people with cancer but they don't meet adults that had cancer as a child. And just being able to look forward and go There's Josh You know, he was where I was Look at Josh now. you know, that just with no words It says so much, and that's something only as you mature as an organization you're able to do and see the benefits of. That's cool I can see your passion as well as you talk about it and what it means to you. And about four years ago, for the first time we had a boat and I watched it go and have to be honest, it' quite emotional. You know, the skipper was an adult who'd had cancer as a young person The medic on board was an adult who'd had cancer as a young person The crew leader was an adult who'd had cancer as a young person and there were five young people on that boat and Honestly, I mean, I feel a most or even talk about it now. It's like that is what it's about. It was eight people Ging off and they weren't confined because it doesn't feel confined But they were going off and they were together They'd all been through the same thing and they all understood that And the power of that, the power of Bringing people together who've been through the same experience, able to share it. You know, we've seen it. it makes such a difference The work you're doing, all three of you and everyone else involved in the trust is incredible to bring things to a close with everything that you've learned, whether it iss in your period as an elite sailor making headlines around the world or the dark times or the bright times or in your period helping to grow this trust From all the things that you've learned over your years on this incredible planet, what would you say is high performance to you So I thought about this because sort of you know the questionions is coming, don't you Um I would listen to people's answers this, I would comeome intrigued. I don't think it's about I think it's about enabling other people So for me, high performance is when you the young people we I interact with at the Eleer Mcrgh against trrust enabling them It's about the team that I work with and I include in that, they're like two hundred and fifty volunteers. It's about enabling them. you know, before we started, we were chatting about being a dad it's about enabling my kids. I mean, they're both adults now but enabling them. So For me, high performance is about enabling other people to where they wouldn't have got without your help And that would be my definition of high performance. I love it Mine's simple. I think my definition of high performance is ting the most you possibly can into life get the most you possibly can out of it I think for me, it's about having the purpose to drive on even in adversity and through and with resilience as well as being ruthlessly kind