Reflecting on a Dual Identity

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see Mor Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High performance So I am just a young guy, happy guy from Shrewsbury who grew up playing football. I didn't play football for any other reason than I loved it, loved it. And then also I'm a high level goalkeeper who stands in gof for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, donon't worry Joe's taking care of it. And I love that as well. when you reflect on your England career, all the times that we went out at tournaments I we just fell the wrong side of tight games at the tournament. seeee you later. Patty bags Osky So the World Cup has started and with it, of course comes all kinds of questions. that we always ask about England, about pressure, about tournament football, about How can we get over the line this time? Maybe this is the year. Well, obviously, here's hoping and I think those questions are something that Few people know better than today's guest, Joe Hart. He was England's number one for over a decade won two Premier Leagues at Manchester City played in World Cups in Eururos and then when Pep Guadiola arrived at Manchester City almost overnight Joe had to realize that his face didn't fit But he didn't crumble. Instead, he rebuilt And in this conversation, he talks about the mental block that nearly ended his city career. how a sports psychologist changed the way he understood relationships. What it was really like inside England's tournament camps and the extraordinary final chapter at Celtic E full circle So this is a man who carries two versions of himself everywhere he goes The warrior in the tunnel and the kid from Shwsbury, who still can't quite believe any of it Chilli happen But we jump straight in at the moment of very angry Joe Pople once walked outside at the Ety Had across to where I was broadcasting live on the television Always remember seeing this face out of the corner of my eye and thinking What is going on here? Honestly, it was K kind of terrifying But it also showed I think An amazing bit of leadership Let's start with that story. As you're welc Joop How you doing goodood than you. It's nice to see you again. You too. No, can I just interject him Be I want to make sure that last time you two saw each other, you was having a crack at him. I was. It wasn't actually No, we've worked together since, but have we that did. Yeah, no. we worked together on BT or whatever it's called now. Yeah, I remember you came and did a game. Yeahah, you're right. But G on, Joe. Tell us the story. I wouldn't wear your version of this. I can't believe you've gone here straight away at the beginning You what you wantan to hear? Yeah. How are it feeling at the time? Right. Okaykay. so I am Mid twenties pumped up on life, pumped up on football pumped up on adrenaline Jake's coming to the sport. He's working for new channel, BT try to do things a little bit different. I think it's fair to say. And u I was watching you present And I felt like you were close to try of kind of making a joke of everything of a lot of people that I had a lot of love and a lot of respect for and I felt protected from. We had a player called Martin Demon Kaylee's who was who came and did a great job He was Manuel Pellgrini signing And he wasn't playing out of his skin. let's say. a few things were happening his way Ped in the FA Cup, Wiggan I was on the bench it was the FFA Cup. I think we lost I think we might have lost the game at the Eiad A Martin had given a penalty away There wass a lot going on around his name at the time And I think chairman of Wigon, you were youed Rosller. So if you remember, Rosller was the manager, Right? And he played at Man City and named his son Colin because he loved Colin Bell. That was it. rememember this. And I and you're totally right. I was making a joke about the fact that Hed named his son Colin Balan and I said to, maybe you'll name your next son Martin after Martin D McKay is one years a game. So I'm in the gym because I wasn't playing. I always like to work out after because I prepare for the game like I should on the bench wasn't playing a lot of energy And I was watching it and I heard you say that And I was Richard Wright was the third choice goal at the time and he saw me I was like, I'm not having that I don't like it when people talk about someone and then they can't defend themselves because Martin would never do English TV. U and he was like, Joe just let it go. I said, how can I sit in here Get annoyed at Jake. And he's thirty yards away. I said, I'm going to go say something. He was like, please don't go and say something. I said, No, I feel like I've got to say something, othertherwise it won't sit well with me So I walked out, waited for you. I think u we're still live on air at this point. Andike this is the first I become aware of this because I'm with Steve Mc Manniman. Yeah And we're standing there, we're doing our presenting and Makag goes Fuckking hell What the fuck on with him? And I turn round And I went, Oh bloody ye, you Joe was like twenty yards away. I think you were with one of the press officers or something. Yeah. He was twenty yards away. I am not joking the stair was inense. And he was locked on. And I said to Steve, I said Stave, I think you pissed him off honestly. because we couldn't tell it was just looking at us, but it was like there was no blinking. the eyes were like this And then we stayed on air. And I don't whether my memory is the same as yours but we came off there and immediately the press officer comes up to me, she goes Hi I would like a word with you G on, Joe, you take it from that? Yeah, so I asked for a word obviously Looking back now It shouldn't rial me up that much. Maybe I had something going on with me. I don't know, but I just felt like I needed to let you know I just subject You've got a very important role in our world. I think you just come over from F one, right? That's right You've got a very important job in our world and I felt recently that you would almost making a joke of some things people are really working hard to do and putting themselves on the line. I said, Martin, for example I said I don't even think Martin understands or would even know what you've just said, but I need to stand up for him and I don't think that's acceptable that you're making a joke of him having a bad game. And I just I didn't even know what I was saying, but I just said I wanted you to be aware We're not cool with that. I didn't know why I thought I was talking for the whole whole football world, but But yeah, to be fair, you took it on. you obviously didn't want to offend me. You weren't on TV to offend anyone But u I just want to let you know. that maybe not everyone's got a voice, but you're right. And I thought it was a brilliant bit of leadership Actually mean at the time I was just shitting myself. Bea do you remember where they took us down, or they took to the manag's office in a tunel, didn't they? Yeah, didah. And I sort of this memory in my head of we're not a dissimilar height, but I have this memory of Joe being like four feet taller than me leaning over the top, like wild eyes, like bulging muscles. And you said exactly that. what I thought was interesting For me anyway, because I was new to football is you said peopleeople in there try their best and they are human beings that make mistakes and it doesn't help them or anyone else at home to make a joke or make light of that. And I think I tried to sort defend myself and say, look trying to make entertainment as well as football, do you remember? Yeah And we shook hands and left it at that. But we actually wrote about this, you know in in our first book. I told the story of this in our first book, right? Okay? Just because I thought it was a really interesting insight into you as a leader And I just wonder when you first kind of When you first took on that mantle of thinking, No, I'm going to I'm going to stand up for my teammates, my football club, the support I love I don't know. I've always kind of felt that way. I've always felt And I suppose starting to reflect now that I'm not I'm not got football I'm not a goalkeeper I do look at things from a From a goalkeeper point of view, that's how I see life. I'm very protective I want to help I want to be the vast line of defense, if you like. And that sounds cliche, but that's literally how I live my life and especially with teammates and started to come into environments where Not everybody has a say. I've been a foreign. I've played in a foreign league where could be going on around me and I could be completely oblivious. like someone could be absolutely slaughting me sat next to me and I wouldn't know And Martin was my example. I feel bad bringing his name because he did exceptional. we won the league with Martin D Mcaleys and he's had a fantastic career. He just happened to be the guy that I didn't feel like he would he would have a voice. And I felt awful. I always have that I was saying these things about you. And I was twenty I was twenty meters away. I was a few walls away by. So why would I sit in here saying that one? I could go and have a conversation with you and I'd like to think I'd cm down enough to try and get the point I wasn't th Like you can do whatever you want. You can be whoever you want to be But I just felt it was important that I said it because three weeks later if I was sat there watching and And another TV presenter was doing it and I thought I had a chance to say something. isn't that how life should be anyway, Isn't it how relationship should work? Like It was actually a brilliant moment for me because it was the beginning of my life in football And Formulaon probably is more entertainment. and it was a great sort of reminder for me that different Yeah. well, I don't know. I don't know whether I was wrong or whether I was right or whher whether it is an entertainment business, but that was how I felt Yeah. And I just felt wrong to say something especially about you when I could say when I could pull you and say it to your face. And I really did mean it from the best possible way, even if I and probably looked a bit stupid at the time I'm interested in H hard and easy decisions and the easy decision is maybe don't say anything or if I bump into Jake I'll pull him up. and you've very deliberately chosen the hard decision of I'm going to go and have this conversation. Have you always done that? or was that something that developed? throughout your career. I don't know. I honestly don't know. I've not really got too much in depth recognition of however always behaved in those situations, maybe in school, let things slide. I don't know But since I've played football and since I've realized that um, having kind of communication with people, like things can be solved really quickly And I definitely want to give that an opportunity. So Like I say, if Jake chose to justust say sh up, I'll do my job however I want to. I'd have been fine with that, you know, I can't tell him what to do I wanted to just give it the best opportunity because I thought it was the best thing for everyone. I thought it was the best thing for you. Even though again, I can't tell you what to do. I think it was absolutely. And I thought it was the best thing for me because it stopped me from being angry when I saw a TV presenter or pundit saying things that I didn't agree with. So take us into the mind and the world of Joe Hart at that time because this is twenty fourteen, that was an FAup quarter final wasn't? At that point, you're the England guy, you're the city guy, You've won the FA Cup, you've won the Premier League What was What was life like for you at that point It was it was A lot of fun It was intense. it was Crush Bang wallet. all sorts of things happening, but It was an amazing time to be alive, an amazing time to be a young guy who loved playing football. I was getting every opportunity under the sun and I felt like If I really was at it and at my best, then The opportunities were endless And was it easy? Like wereere you in flow at that time? W the decisions on the pitch coming easy for you? See, that's probably a moment In twenty thirteen, I'd say up until up until the age of twenty six, twenty seven progressed. I'm talking from eleven, twelve, thirteen Four team with the first team, eight tes Training with the first team, reseserves, turn fifteen, first team city loan England twenty ones and I was literally just taking steps up this ladder just through hard work, believing in what I was doing and not really thinking too much. And then uh, twenty fourteen start of that season I was useless I had this kind of block where I started the season And I didn't feel right I felt that I was second guessing myself, having never done that professionally ever. Always even even in a mistake, just kind of like whatever, I'll just I'll just carry on playing. Fow was there and interesting you said fllow because that's a big thing for me I was jittery start the season, actually got taken out of the team by Manuel Pellegrini early on in his career new goalkeeper coach had come in kind of clashing a little bit. and I got taken out of the team, which was the first time in my life, my career. I'd ever been removed from a team And it was one hundred million percent the right thing to do And obviously I stormed into the office I You know, why have you done this in my head? I'm going, than God, you've done. This is the right time to do this excellent from you. Becauses not easy. likeike you said, you just gave the list of who I was and what I was and what I was to Manchester City. And he said, Joe, you just need time out. You're not right. He said, I don't know you well enough, but I know enough to know that you're playing to your potential right now and you're hurting the team Which is the perfect thing to say to me because if someone says that, then not a problem U I said, look I don't agree with you, I do agree with you what will it take to sort this out. He said, look, I'm not banning from the team. I'm not taking you out. I'm not, you know, you're not banished I just feel like you need a moment Um So I said, right, okay, go I'm going work on myself and I want to stay in regular dialogue with you And then brilliant from my agent at the time, obviously called him told him what was happening I said, I'm, you know, because in the build upp to that happening I'd been poor for probably three or four games, like poor. It all culminated in a mistake against Chelsea We lost two one, Nasic ball through ball came but didn't come. Then he saw me come but didn't see me stop So he's gone to head it back to me. Then I came again, it went over my head, Torres knocked it and lost two one. And you still remember it like it was yesterday? one hundred percent. I remember the Drake song when I put my headphones on and I pressed play and it was, don't think about it too much. And I started laughing to myself because I was like, you're a mess But it was funny. it was like, I can could see the funny side of what was going on. And I was like, Wolf, I'm a real problem at the moment. I'm a real problem for this team. I need to come out and I need to work out what's going on anyyway, so spoke to I spoke to my agent and he suggested, you ever thought about you know talking to someone because he knew that I was all professional roots goalkeeper roots I was trying, I was exhausting, like I'm always going to try as hard as I can said, you know, I'd love that. I'd absolutely love that Uh So we reached out Ironic howtw works Brendon Rogers here and he wont whyind' say Bndon was the manager of Liverpool at the time And My agent's link was to Dr. Steve Peters to which she reached out Brendon, he was working exclusively with Liverpool at the time So Brandons said, L, I can't let Joe have him But I would never le I'd never like to leave a player in need. I've got another suggestion I've got Jamie Edwards, who's a mental coach I was like, yeah, cool I appreciate that. Obviously I wasn't in dialogue, but that's what got told to me. Wne sat down with Jamie and probably know more about this Damian just They asked me about myself told him You know, it was one of those meetings where we don't know how it's going go and obviously three hours later, I'm waffling away like listening to myself kind of answer the majority of all the questions that I've got Wored out that it's not necessarily the ability, it's just the clarity of what you need in the game, clarity of what you need off the field And then we started this kind of beautiful adventure of learning more about myself and learning more about kind of control best way of getting the best possible version of me, which doesn't mean the perfect me, it just means the best possible version and we went on that. Um He came in with a new style. a new style that he was really keen on and he'd never played And it's a wide leg stuance that you'll see you'll see Edison and Stehan Ortega see them them take it up And without being boring and going into it too much, way it didn't suit me, I was more neutral and I felt really comfortable in how I was playing. But he asked me to just try it And I told him that I was quite comfortable and neutral and And he said, Yeahah, that's cool because he's a very funny character when I got to know him. And he was like, right, that's cool, but just try it I was like This isn't going to win well because you've seen I am at that time in my life. I'm like, well I think this is what's best on me. Anyway, so we're button clashing And then u three months into the season. Jamie went Wh's in your golder coat? Tld him shhabby You went, tellell me about Javy, and I went I said, what do you mean? He said, Well, tell me about his family So I don't know anything about his family He went right, well, what chance have you got Now, what chance have you got working with a guy that you're not interested in personally I said, A bet he knows about your family? I was like, Well, yeah, I've talked about mine. He said why don't you just open the conversation? Why't just whyy't you just open the door with him? So I said, You you know what, I'd love to do that. And I walked obviously charged in possibly aggressive working together. We'd been working together fine. like no one would have known But I know when I get on with someone how I behave and he probably is the same asked him for a coffee Ne thing I know find out about his family, find out about how he works. He's asking me how I'm working shouldhers are dropping I'm saying, look I know I'm out at the team at the moment. I'd love to get back in and what your style is, I'd love it if we could just kind of Bring a little hybrid version I can do that for you not a problem Pub b it Next minute, we're working together in I know some of his ideas are great, some of them are still used to this day, some of them I don't, but that's life againain, some of them he liked from me Same with Manuel U how how's your relationship with Mel Pellegrini?, you know, it's a bit difficult, you know, which kind of working together. I don't know whether I don't know whether he's feeling me or Ask him, just go in and have a conversation. You're a senior player now. So I ended up sitting down with my m, said, I don't to talk about football. I said, I just need I just want to know where you're at. I said I want you to know about me. I said, I want you to know how I'm feeling I want you to know what what I'd love to do in the game still And not just relaxed everything. nextxt minute we've got a date. you know, I feel like I'm going to play you in this cararabo cup game and I want you win for fulum, but I need to I need to see where you're at And obviously, I'm still training to the highest level that I possibly can. belieelieve it or not I'm starting to save the ball again. belieelve it or not, I'm starting to come When I should come, not come when I shouldn't. Bys are seeing a change in me. and then float back into the team and then we won the leeague that year. An amazing part of my career, one that's Probably you, everyone will look to the moment that Pet Guariola came in twenty sixteen and everything changed. No didn't I was fine then. That was just football, that was a circumstance and We move, but that was probably my best moment and biggest moment in my career and as a person. I I'm intrigued. I just it down there that as you were describing that, that famous Tim Galway Potential minus interference equals performance And I'm interested in any of the other areas that The interference was obviously the relationships with whether it was with Pellegrini or Manuel goalkeeping coach W there any Any other interferenceces that you decided during that period take away to allow you to go and perform. No because I wanted to try and remove anything and everything because my whole focus was about being as good as I could be And you know what? I do actually remember saying I feel great as a goalkeeper Probably two months before it And I said those horrible words. I was talking to my Pel. I was like, you know what? if I'm the right position, I feel unbeatable And that's not me. L I don't say stuff like that, but I did actually feel like that at the time. genenuinely did right or wrong, it was a great way to feel. And like I said got myself in that position. I've been taking steps towards like felt so good in the goal and then Maybe maybe I believe my own hype I don't know. What do you think because I'm sure you thought about it a lot Do you think you did Yeah, but I think I was right You know, like no one's perfect like they're really not and I love that hindsight and and I don't think I would be I don't think I would have got to the level I say, I've got to, I finished that. I don't think I could get to that level without believing it, but you've got to control it You've got to be able to control those feelings. You've got to be able to control confidence, youve got to be able to control always looking for that edge to move forward. and I didn't have that control then and it's fine. I was happy to feel at the time I felt it within I felt it within two minutes of speaking with Jamie, I felt it within The third game of the four game run I was like, well don't I can't quite just get a handle on this. I'm going to I'm have to need to check myself. And but you can't check yourself in football It's just a million miles an hour, million miles an hour here Next game, fank for this title Playing for England tournament Love it. L all those things I list are not hindrance. They arere amazing to be a part of But it's pretty hard to keep up with them, I bet. I'm amazed that you say I was okay with PEP. telling me that I wasn't right for Man City because you've gone through this dip You've done the work You've risen again You feels to me like just before, you know the start of twenty sixteen, like you're in a great place So when you get the message from Pp Guardiola that you're not the right man for him How are you okay with that? Surely that was Un unbelievably painful. It wasn't painful. It was frustrating. It wasn't painful. It was a It was a great man who had a vision that I didn't fit into It was frustrating. I didn't mind, you know, if it was to go to a panel and Coaches were sat there and My name was brought up and he said, No, for me, that's not whichich is what he said, He's a good goalkeeper. but for me, the system doesn't work, which is fine for But then he took charge of the club that I was a part of and that I loved But what can you do What can you do? I I'd love to have stayed and tried to prove otherwise not even prove. you know, he was It would have been look, can I can try and help you to come to the level that I need you to, but can't start you But I'm living in that world where play for in England. I want to play at the highest possible level. I want to I want and you can't play for England if you're being tried at a football club, well, I couldn't at the time So yeah, it was just just an unfortunate circumstance, but I didn't it wasn't I don't think it wasn't a personal attack on me. It was a man who had a vision and I didn't fit into it And what was the conversation like then? Oh, it was apparent that He was I think he signed maybe in February I think it was announced, Manuel wouldn't carry on Crumblings and obviously I think I don't even know if Was he a free agent at the time? or was he finishing his ten year oldion? You know b we played good football at Manchester City, but we weren't of that that brand. so I'd never played that and none of us had It was a new brand for all of us and it was something that was obvious that he was going to bring in. And obviously he, you know, I was I was deep in a contract at the club M I was Probably three and a half years Maybe even four years left on a deal. The club were committed to me. I was committed to them But their golden goose was to get pet. there was no And I thought, great, I'd love to be a part of that U and then he came in and called me very early, we spoke as You know I think I came back early from to go and meet them in China because I was Got the vibe that it wasn't It wasn't set in stone for me and I needed to have to get that v Qest You just do, right I'd imagine he's going to be the new manager. I was a senior player. He's the kind of person that I'd imagine there would have been a conversation previous to coming into training. L lookingking forward to working with you that didn't happen. I don't know that's how work. I don't know. I don't work with a gu But came in And Javi still there, someone who I've got in a great relationship, still do know He said he didn't know how to feel. He didn't know where he stood. He was still waiting to meet the manager And yeah, and I just kind of put two and two together. And then we got in front of each other and He told me that As much he admired me as a person, he didn't think I could fit into a system, too which I was like, look I don't agree with you, but That's your opinion. Is that something that we can work on together? or is that something where I need to find a new home Um which she said, lookook, I would work I'm happy to work, but I can't put everything aside that I'm trying to do. I'm here to win. and I respect that. I mean was here to win. he wasn't here G me a good career or look after me He needed a goalkeeper that he felt could function because he's the kind of He's the kind of coach who He needs all his people to work, and then hell then he'll tell them what to do and where to go and how it works which I've been a part of up in You know, Scotland playing for the similar sort mananager and when you're one of those pieces, it's such an interesting way to play I was in a trusted piece and I was in a very important position So if I'm not trusted piece, He can't put me into a system which et whether it's a fifty fifty, whether it works or not, he't whher I could orher couldn't, I didn't know whher I could or couldn' But he couldn't he didn't have the time Hence me saying about the life that we live in National team trying to win. he's in that life too. So he didn't have the time for that And I didn't fit in. so But you had that lovely example from couple of years earlier where you've decided to go and build relationships and find common ground that eventually leads to your being able to develop stronger professional relationships Did you try and find that common ground with him on a personal level? Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. that's how I had the same conversations. We actually went in depth It's a shame. I know I know it's important. it's an important thing to talk about because it's a shame it's such a vital part of my story because of a twenty one twenty two year story.'s is a month. We move Yeah and it got dealt with It wasn't ideal Here we are now. I suppose the reason why it's a big deal for people. Is this was the beginning of the man city we see today And I suppose I wonder how it was for you after that time watching the success that came. Thinking, man, I was there That was great we were pretty successful Yeah, you were. We did alright for a team that hadn't necessarily won in a while. We were part of the first team to win the FFA Cup You know, we didn't win one Premier League we won two We winning K whatever the whatever the Lague cup was called at the time. So It didn't hurt too much And that wasn't my team that did the rest. so I just supported I love that club. love everything about the club. the people they welcome me as a nineteen year old boy. and the Premier League was everything to me. I was You know, the club was doing their best to stay in the league at the time. It was amazing, some amazing people that are still there now U what comes with Great power Blots and change. N not many people survive. And you know the ones that survived They're literally some of the best players in the world to have ever played the game And I'm all right, but I'm not a guy you were very good talk at this point about England as well because I think there's a sense of belonging as a footballer. and there's more of a sense of belonging as a Premier League footballer. But I think where it gets really challenging is as an international. like that is elite of the elite. I remember on your final game for Celtic, you spoke afterwards about there's still a A large slice of you that is just a young kid Growing up in Threwsbury When you were playing for England, how did the impmoster syndrome show itself there? Was there any room to think about the young kid growing up that dreamed of playing for his country So I am just a young guy, happy guy from Shrewsbury who grew up playing football, cricket. Tnis. Whatever you name it, I played it and I didn't play any I didn't play football for any other reason than I loved it. loved it And then also I'm a high level goalkeeper who stands in goal for some serious teams, has some very important people look back and think, donon't worry Joe's takaking care of it. And I love I love that as well. U and I'm proud to those two people very far apart, but together I like how they work. And actually I was saying that there's not many games. where Champions League a few times to start with, but every England game, soon as the referee blew the whistle for the game to start I always remember just closing my eyes, smiling And then It was gone But I was that guy. I rememberking every time just thinking 's fucking min like and then Bosh, gone. I mean goal, I'm moving.m I don't care about any of that. Cn't care less I'm in goal and I want to work But u How can you not enjoy doing that? Like what's the point And if I asked you at that time you know, when you absolutely performing for England, winning trophies, playing in the Premier League. if I asked you then when you were a lot younger, what is high performance? What would you have said then squeezing every single ounce. of yourself every single day being at the being at the limit pushing it to the limit, never accepting anything less than everything you've got want in more saving every shot ceiling that's not even a feeling. highigh performance isn't a feeling. it's an attitude That's what I would have said. It would have probably been a long list And with the man who sits in front of us today talking about ' two sides to me I'm in touch with my two sides than ever before. you're no longer professal football. if I said you now what's high performance Certainly take a breath. I'd say it's Assessing the level, assessing your levels. What are your levels? what's the highest possible level you can reach Do your best to stay at that level Every you can The way I've looked at especially football recently was put myself in the best possible position. train, ask the right questions, get all the information. whistle goes however it plays out, it plays out, but it won't be through lack of preparation I think one thing that sticks with me constantly is Perfection is impossible. is We all know that no one's perfect. I don't think you have to accept that. Don't accept that. You can still look for it. There's no harm in looking for something that's not there And you can still push for it. give yourself a little bit of room and a little bit of breathing time to really to really assess where you're at So at this point, what What did hard work look like for you just looked like at work. It didn't feel like any other way. I'm not a man who will use the word sacrifice lightly I don't feel like I ever sacrificed anything. I did it because I loved it. I do it because I love it. I do it because I want to do it I'm here today because I want to be here I sacrificed anything. I want to be here. I want to be a part of these conversations I want to find out, you know, like I had that first conversation with Jamie like Speaking with yourself and Damen Having these conversations, I'll work stuff out for me U and then I might not. I might have more questions, but Going back to what you said, what does hard work look like? I wouldn't know what any other work looks like. so it's not hard work to me, but that's not me saying it's easy.'s me saying it's the only way that I like to do things. Can I take you back to that example you used or clos in your eyes when they when an England game kicks off and just having a moment of gratitude and appreciation. because Jars with the popular image of you being often seen as over aroused when you're playing for England. You know, like you've seen the footage of you I'm sure. I've seen me on the tunnel tunnels I've seen me on the pitch ever. I've never seen me on the pitch looking irate I've seen in tunnels when I've fought It looks a bit wild And I'm interested in those two sides as well, the guy who who looks wild in the tunnel as opposed to the guy that's taking a moment to appreciate just how far you've come But that he is wild, that guy, he is wild and That's that's part of my skills set part of why I'm able to get to I wouldn't sound particularly Overly blessed. I'm talented, but I'm not that good. I ha'mt got an amazing spring I'm not faster than many people. Um My left foot's okay, my right foot's Pretty good I've danance with the best and felt pretty comfortable. so The wild side of me pumped upside of me. I think don't I don't regret at all it's just part of me because I knew I knew that when it was required If you were to watch me on the pitch I've never been a bareator of defenders. I've always been I worked with my teammate I've always I've always looked to make a save I'd like to think that if I made a save or chucked one in You wouldn't be able to tell because I'm complete the same. But they yeah Before the tunnel, yeah the atmosphere got to me, but to say it got to me doesn't mean that it hurt me It got to me, it made me feel good. It made me feel pumped, it made me feel excited I knew that I was always second in the line So I'd have a captain in front of me And I always thought, I've got people behind me If they there to see this huge frame. someomeone who's not afraid if it needs to go off right now, if it's not afraid to lean in and do that for them, because that's what I need to do. I felt like I'm a defender So the little strikers, the guys who were focused on the game Jo Joe' take care of that. not a problem. I'll rip people out. No bother and I felt like that's what I loved to be in and what I needed to be, whether it was right or wrong, like we talked about earlier in our conversation, I don't know, but that was what got the best out of me. And like I say, with the talent I got, I certainly got the best out of myself But I don't think we're looking for like what is right or wrong because I don't think the answer is there. it's what's right for you And I'm interested in how did you get yourself into that state of high arousal where you are the defender of the team, you are the guy that everyone can rely on and do so in that controlled way that when the whistle blows. I'm like I'm going to deliver It never stopped never stopped donont me wrong, I wasn't sitting at home. you know, stretching and working on strategy, but just kind of how I was all the time was I'd like to think if I could stick I could stick a pair of gloves on. with a twenty minute warm upp with a goalie coach that I wanted to work with and two goalies or one goalie that I trusted. I'd feel good to go But like that's how I've lived since I was a since I was a kid And I don't need to live like that anymore. so that' going be that's going to be interesting to find out what that is. but constant state. I've never been I've never been more than two weeks. Iomething I've been more than eight days on a treatment table. So I've always been out scrapping, fighting, going in goal, making saves, making blocks. arguing Hving laugh. U so it it was it was a constant state of which that But always when I was in goal in a game, I knew that I had to be at peace with what was going on, and that was how I played my football, but not through a conscious decision. It was because I knew that was what works for me Talk about the burden of wearing the England shirt. know, we spo with Danny SZibriani on this podcast. He says every time he watches England, he sees tight restrictive players because he thinks that they're just thinking about the game too much because they know what comes with it How can we all help to lift the burden that comes with pulling on that shirt or maybe we shouldn't I didn't feel that way personally, right I feel that there's a lot of noise and rightly so. there's a lot of opinion and rightly so And there's a lot of theories when it doesn't go well that The shirt weighs too heavy inside a camp that I've always been in a past There's not those conversations. It's a conversation of What are we' going to do? how we're going to tactically play this What's the opposition? Just like when you play Lincoln City in a preseason friendly, you're looking to beat them. you're looking to win I can only speak for myself, but I didn't Butra the expectation. didn't weigh on me. I knew it was there and I felt it was there and felt it was right because why not why would you not reach for it? Because I'm part of teams where The expectation is to win and we've won And I've not been I've not been a part of a team that's not expected to win and win. so I don't know how that feels either I know I know how it feels to be part of a team that's expected to win And then that teams wins And I've been as like I said, I've been part of teams that's expected to win and doesn't But that comes with the territory of being a good team. That comes with the territory of being a top top team to can go to levels. So I wouldn't ask for it to be taken away because I feel like Play it and anyone that I've been around has has just had too much focus on what they're doing in terms of a game of football rather than worrying whether they People watching are happy or not. when you reflect on your England career, how would you describe it Ask two different people, right O ammazingly proud, made incredible memories, stuff that will never be taken away from me made People closest to me dearly happy, my town to be proud and then ask another guy doesnn't do anything, nothing Nothing, had opportunities and didn't take them Not sad Not upset Be Frank didn't do anything with the time that I got to wear the jersey C becausecause we didn't w C because other teams scored more goals than this on pilot I let goals in and we didn't school out I promise you're not being rude there' like, no, I don't feel you are, but I'm interested that you obviously. Are you asking why we didn't win? whyy I didn't think we didn'd cross the line? Yeah, I'm interested as somebody that's been in that environment, why do you not feel that given the talent that was there, the you know, that focus on going and performing like why did we not wave? We personally feelt all the times that we went out at tournaments. I' we just fell the wrong side of tight games. I can literally I can go into those games right now in my head you know, losing parently shootout to Italy then we went out the twenty fourteen World Cup close game with with Italy, we lost two one Cose game with Uruay, we lost two one at the tournament, see you later. Patty Bags Oski. Goodly team, good year, not great, but good U then we went to twenty sixteen. Sted our way through the group, played Iceland. notot a good performance banged a head against a brick wall at the tournament. notot through lack of trying, not through lack of effort, not through lack of quality. You just fall the wrong side of games And that's not an excuse. that's not's my that's my only reason I can give you. It wasn't down to being feel expectation. It wasn't down to a lack of will. it was just falling the wrong side of games and when you're in tournaments that come around every two years which are world level If you get to semif finals, finals and you fall the wrong side of one game, then fair enough, but Fs are they fell the wrong side in any of the games you've gone and I did when I was a part of that team And that was your final England tournament twenty sixteen Yeah How do you reflect on that tournament I don't think I played I don't think I played well. Ill a poor goal in against Wales I played do me wrong, ninety percent, ninety five percent of my game was good was rock solid and they let a pull goal against Iceland, which in a two one loss and a loss against a team that we should beat is u is important. So I played an important part in a game that we lost But u I still feel quite comfortable how I played, how I prepared Um L I say, what can I do now? It wasn't through lack of effort put it that way prepare for this inview I went and watched back a bunch of those twenty sixteen games because I think in hindsight, I remember the criticism in fact I message, you know, Joh B Ruddy. Yeah friend of mine and fellow goalkeeper I said I'm chatting with Joe Hart today. What would you love to know He said, I can't believe people use the Iceland pre game incident to effectively end his England career more than Rem him being super pumped up in the tunnel We lost to Iceland. He'll admit, it wasn't a great moment, but for people suggesting that it was because he was too pumped up is utterly ridiculous That's from a fellow goalkeeper. Yeah. You agree with that People are free to say what they want Um and that look, that narrative is never going to be good if you lose a game. I could have been stood there. Dormant silent. It's not up it wasn't up for the game could have chewed my chewing gum slowly not for the game. Toot it too fast admittedly, I probably was. I was pumped. I was ready but I was just I was ready to win a tournament like that's what I was ready to do. And that's what he's saying. And I think what's really interesting is I remember the criticism that swirled around twenty sixteen. So going back and watching these games, I expected to see like howlers and rickets and problems And as I hold on this like cou of moments that even you would say Yak could have done a bit better there, but even they weren't It just got me thinking about how you learn to deal with what feels often like really unfair scrutiny talked about the how an England player feels or would feel and I'm in and around the best in terms of players, in terms of coaches I've made friends through the years with Serious football people And their opinion is important to me. My family's opinions isn important to me I'm not saying it's not important that someone says he was too pumped up for the game, but I get that it's a flippant comment. I get that. it's a comment of someone who knows nothing about me knows nothing about how I work day to day, knows nothing about that prerevious However many hundred appearances I'd made with medals around my neck, I was in exactly the same mode Exactly the same mode, exactly the same person, but I just didn't perform So how can you please everyone whenin If you do, you'd make errors. at such a high scale like a it was a high high profile game Eespecially the Iceland And I made I made a mistake. so peopleople need to say what they need to say, they need to feel better about England going out at the tournament and I can't get away from it. I was one of the factors we went out that tournament, but like That doesn't That doesn't crush me. That doesn't destroy me.s I know for a fact I could do that in my last game. I could have done that in my last ever game. I've walked out Oh, Joe got a great career. how great are you? you know, what a feeling at Celtic I could have chucked one in in an old firm Derby, exactly the same. Exactly the same as what I did there And potentially that would have that would have changed the narrative on my career. for now to certain people But to me, it wouldn't I'm going out and' doing my best. I'm putting it all on the line. I'm getting picked by people who are in really important roles They're not just a random guy off the street. They're being employed to pick the best players for England, the best goalkeeper in England the best player for Celtic, the best player for Manchester City So if these guys believe in me, my defenders believe in me people at home who see how I work daily are comfry with me, then We've all got to be okay that every now and again It happens. So when you think, I mean, you're describbeing really powerfully there, Joe, the idea of being a member of a tribe and your tribe is your family and the professionals that value what you bring to them. Can you think back to a piece of feedback or a bit of coaching that you ever received from somebody within those tribes that really made you sit up and pay attention Probably the resounding one was with Jamie evenven though he's definitely part of my tribe. and it was when I was waffling on about I can't do this, I can't do that. This doesn't feel right He just said, Do you know that going goal? And I said, yes And then he smiled That was it we need? Well, yeah. I'm probably going to look there probably should be something more sensational in there I I only knew how to reach my level as best I possibly could. and that was probablyroably staying in my own lane in terms of trying to get the best out myself was the best way that I could integrate with a group and work with a team and often what I'd Well I'd ask people when I see if they're ha them a little second guess about themselves or need a little bit of reassurance And can I ask you about The fact that when you're a goalkeeper You can do something that someone in midfield can do and no one even notices because happens in midfield. if you do it. If the ball slips under your foot, it's a goal. Yeah. If the ball slips under a striker's foot four or five times a game it can happen and no one sees it How do you A become comfortable with the fact that the stakes are so much higher for a goalkeeper, but also What it that you'd suggest for our audience for moments when Something bad does come your way, like how you recover from that going forwards and recover quickly So the way I look at it is I signed up to be a goalkeeper. signed up I signed on the dotted line as a person as a player So those stakes being higher, they're just my stakes. just Like there's no point in me worrying whether a midfielder gets away with a mistake. There's no point in me worrying If a striker misses a chance or if I make a mistake and it goes in the goal, or often if you don't make a mistake, it's still perceived as your fault But I signed up to be a goalkeeper, so I don't see it as high stakes. I see it as just my stakes. in the life that I live and the life that I'm part of. and As much as I don't want I want all the good sides to what makes me feel good as a goalkeeper, like You can't have it all. It's hard for me to advise for anyone else other than my mindset and a goalkeeper mindset And if I ever get asked, from a young goalkeeper or a mother or father of their child's a goalkeeper. What's one bit of advice you can give like technically I can't really give any. I can just say Only go in goal because you want to go in goal because it's the only way you can be a goalkeeper And I love being a goalkeeper. I love those stakes. They're my stakes and they're the ones that I live I live and die by. But you can only do it if you want to do it. I don't think you could do it if you're looking and Saying what you said there, if a midfielder makes a mistake or if a striker makes a mistake Isn't that's relevant to my life. It's what I do and how and how I can be a goalkeeper. What stage of your career? didid you become a leader? the guy that you wanted people to rely on I honestly don't know. and Class yourself, class myself as it is tough but I've just kind of always wanted to be I've always not wanted to lead, but I just wanted to have I' wanted to be I have a relationship on my team with my teammates. whatever that may be and then feel together. and often my attitude and how I am has elevated me to a point where people would stick me up bibe It kind of resonates with me that I stand to I stand behind the captain. I stand with my team behind me, like that's always been my feeling, always how I've wanted to feel So whether I have been or haven't been, that's how I've That's just me. that's how I behave. love I love having people in front of me. I love people having I've always loved helping the captains. I've never been a captain. I've always loved helping the captain. If I can help the manager, if I can soften the blow for things. I've always wanted to do that And that phrase that you used about you love the idea of all being together How would you create an environment where people would feel that we were all together gettingting to know everyone. I think I think football's one of the most amazing sports where especially high level, you're getting people from all over the world like And and it it's very hard for them to just come in and have people to have a personality because you've got different cultures, you've got different ways of living. you've got people in different stages of their life and haaving a conversation with someone ust giving them a little bit of time, giving them a little bit of freedom to be just kind of assert who they are Um and then I wouldn't even try and create an environment. just would I just want people to feel comfortable and the more comfortable people feel. better the environment is So I'd say that would be one of my tools that I'd use, but it's not a tool I use. I just really like doing it. and I loved seeing people it become more comfortable. And even the more difficult boys, if you really, really dug weren't being difficult because they wanted to cause trouble. It was because they were just a bit uncomfortable what was going on with them or how they were feeling And don't me wrong, it's not down to four hour chats and But it's just letting people know like you can you can You can chill, like this is a safe place. You can be yourself, whoever that is, whoever that version of you is, it's cool. We're going to make it work for this team and beauty of football as it's been with me. If it doesn't work for you, there's a transfer window coming up. So don't cause yourself drama cause this team drama for anyy amount of time because it's a lot of effort ultimately doesn't get you anywhere And there's a big wide world out there. There's millions of teams that you can go and play for. so just dig in. It's so nice to sit and have a really sort of honest and open vulnerable conversation like this. And you know when Damen asked you what makes a good culture and you talk about, well, safety, really, the ability to be you. That's really what we're trying to achieve of this show Is this comfortable for you to talk like this now? Do you enjoy it? I love it. I absolutely love it because I don't feel I don't feel vulnerable here. I feel You're asking the right questions, you're asking them for the right reasons I'd imagine a lot of people get a lot of comfort from the guests that you get to to feel comfortable but when you trying to work out who you are like we all are in life. and I don't know who I am yet. I haven't cracked it at all and I don't claim to have cracked it, but you learn things through the way And I've always felt best when I've just spoken honestly. Yeah. But answer to your question a great environment. reallyally great environment. You're doing a great job and it's a pleasure to sit here. I think the reason why it matters is it's so easy for us to sit here and talk about all the things we have, all the highs, the great moments, the titles, the trophies representing your country's shoulders out, all of that And that's great for people that it be entertained by. But I think the true depth here is Actually some of the challenges that we all go through, we have this image that a footballer is bulletproof, and particularly for someone like you that seems so confident from the outside This is like the real Joe heart we get to see now So can we talk about a period where It was tough and actually what it was like on the inside rather than the perception from the outside, this period of going to Torina, which I think by all accounts was fun. and I can see the smile on your face straight away. but then West Ham and then Burnley and then Buzz What would you like to share with us about that period in your career? Tarina was a strange part of my life before the manager had come in It was mid August byy the time it was pretty certain that Yeah I needed to go elsewhere. Yeah So I was looking elsewhere. I was L I say I had three years left on him an unbelievableact contract that I'm you know, forever grateful, but I felt I ended Anyway, it was a tough contract for someone to take on and You know how the goalkeeping market works peopleople have got their number ones, certainly got their number ones who are getting, you those sorts of contracts or would demand those sorts of transfer fees So I was a little bit like Where am I going to go here? An that I kind of thought was going to happen got snuffed out. We got late, I think it was maybe twenty seven, twenty eighth of August, maybe That's me. somethingomet must have happened then late in that summer where you just thought I need to go out of. No I was constantly like that. but it wasn't it was't desperation. It was like, that's what I need to do. constant communication with the club. I was still The manager was playing Willy Cabillero because he club weren't able weren't going bring anyone in, even though we I knew that it was either. Steaggan or Brava that we werere trying to bring in, but they needed meet gone which I was like, I'll go because I need to go because I need to play where Sam Allodce's first England camp I went and sat down with Sam Um He said, lookook, if you can if you can play football you're in my team. you know I'm comfortable with how you play. I think you're going to be important. And then I don't know how. I don't know how the math or the calculations came about, but I was told that I could Go to Terena was like, Right, okay Didn't ask any more questions U spoke to Patrick Viera who'd played for Juventus, obbviously the same city says It' it's a beautiful city didn't we didn't go get into it or why and then I spoke to Tenisa the lights Nis Mhalovich Um who Cor and Alexander Koloroff knew And he said, comeome, play Come play for me You can come and play for me, I want you to come and play for me So I said oh outcome play for you I didn't really get into the depths of how it worked because I don't think it should work, but it did Ased my wife what she thought And she said, you know, let's go. Why not because I told her that, lookook if I don't go would be a problem for me playing for my country. and I'm not going to get in Manchester City. So We took it and we went and it was It was a it was a beautiful club Amazing club to play for, Aazing city and down kind of some games, not good. some games, I'd say Personally, I played okay. I I wasn't elite level that I would put myself at, We can't can't be great all the time and it was a it was it was in a different environment and I said, you know, I'm just going to enjoy it what it is, try and grit Beautiful, beautiful support. and try and make the most out of it and then look to move permanently the next summer So I've still got two years left on my deal Or three, I don't know Anyway, the reason I talk about the length of my contract is because the club, even though they didn't want me couldn't just give an England goalkeeper away for. free They still, you know, I'm still's still a business. They still there's still a price tag on my head Yeah. And then I was starting to become slightly less desirable at this point because of my narrative with the greatest one of the greatest coaches in the world. wasn't feeling me. And we have attempted to engage in anything that might have been perceived as gimmick creat you know, like looking for something new or different are, you know, some people would reach out for superstitions or In Tony Cascarino's famous book he spoke about he started to dye his hair darker because he didn't want to give the impression that any gray hairs would mean he's getting old and therefore that narrative starts to establish himough he's an old man now Were you tempted to do anything like that? Do you know I loved watching recently was the quarterback documentary on Netflix And I loved watching how All of them, particularly Mahones All the stuff that he did off the field and If I were to start again now I'd probably look at something like that. but this was only two years ago and I was I pretty setertain and physically I was at my maximum with the load that I was doing. There was an energizer bunny that when I was his age, you had more I felt I still got to respect that at the time when I when I was that age, that I was still doing everything I possibly could So it's not like I was leaving something away. It's just now lear I learnt more. So I don't regret that I didn't do it then but it just made me smile. But no, in answer to your question, I always feel and felt like I was pushing myself to the limit and getting everything out of myself And like I say, sometimes was it had great results and sometimes I had pretty average ones. But we attempted to do anything even to try and shift the narrative. so maybe Do more media appearances, you know, like maybe do something to curry favor with No I didn't I didn't like I say, I respect that world and I respect that people People have opinions and will sensationalise good and bad, but like it was completely out of my control. What I knew was in my control Like I say, it brought me into a place where I feel comfortable. my feet were on the ground, gloves were on my hands and I felt like I could push myself to the limit. What's the biggest you learn to stay in the moment. Stay really, really present try my best to get the most out of it not look for shortcuts. and enjoy the moment Enjoy the tough times, enjoy the good times and don't let them necessarily dictate who and what you are. How as a father and a husband? would your wife or your children I've noticed any difference in you during this tough time deceived tough time. It was not perfect for me football wise. I don't know. I'd imagine so. I'd imagine there' be there'd be tells like there's no point insane that I was skipping around. but it's just a it's a focus. like I say It was a focus and it was an energy to be at my best. But the reason I asked Joe is because I'm interested for anyone listening to this might want to offer a helping handsw to people in their lives that that needed it at that time and I'm interested in did they do anything? Love you felt had L love this, love this. How are you first time, the first period we talked about? How are you coping with, you know not being in the team? I'm all right What you know he d, your mom W, how are they? What do they ask you? How are you? How are I? And what do you tell them? Yeah, I'm al right. I'm all right All right, I'm flip it. How would you behave if you felt like One of them was struggling What would you want to do for them I'd want to help him Right? Okaykay. so why would you not let them takes apart your burden And immediately, yeah, you're right. becauseuse me thinking I'm protecting everyone. It's fine. It's fine, relax. I'll get through it. It's fine But I would never let that happen to someone who I cared about ever. I'd want to take them Let them know that everything's al right, let them know that look it iss just a moment in time And that was a huge moment for me. And it really helped me with relationships all my relationships because when you think I thought I was protecting, I wasn't, I was probably just I was leaving people in the cold and people that cared about me and wanted to help and wanting to love and I wasn't letting them. So That was that was actually a really good moment and something that I use I use a lot now when I speak to people when they're when I see young players or middle of their career players who are just kind of got like, I'll be all right I'm getting through it H That it's a really empowering thing to have help and have a good team around you takeake us to the moment where you decided to say Oh right there soon as soon as he said that on as as soon as I realized, just like when he said So what Shavy's family like I couldn't answer A guy I'd work with for three months I'd asked him one question about himself. So did you go home and tell your wife? Yeah Amad N And everyone, I'm my boys, I'm my gang. What did you say to them Exactly what happened Lughed about it. After Westam claim bdly Yep, and then t them. was hardest it for you in this partal of your career Furnly I came in, Obviously, I spoke with Sean, a man who's on a real level U He told me thought he had a He thought he could bring me an opportunity and I could help him and he could help me and I agreed with him came in Obviously in amongst Tom and Nick, you know, two awesome goalkeepers, two guys that love the pieces as well But you know, circumstances, injuries B . I thought I was play I thought I did okay. I think in fact, I played well I thought I played well I was happy on my levels. came out the team because the team weren't winning difficult but Man's got to make a decision. He told me that he he changed every player in the team. He hadn't changed me. so he was going to do that. He had Tom Heat and Fitt and ready to play. tough, but He's got to do what he's got to do. The world again does not revolve around me Tom came in, did excellent fully fully assert himself as a back in after couple of months for him who was living his own story and his own life and I'm sure would have a great conversation with you about his time there it wasn't mine I came out finished the rest of the season on the bench for Tom And then This was the window where I thought, you know open dialogue with the club. if you need to go somewhere jo, go and do it. You know, you've got ourac in Thank you. no animosity And I looked and there was nowhere for me to go. literally nowhere I think I'm one of free at this point There probably was there probably was some conversations of somewhere to go but nowhere I thought said on No wh that I wanted to play. And how did that feel I don't know. It didn't feel anything. It was yeah, look it was It wasn't disheartening, it was just Everyone around me at that time was I'd asked to deal in facts. Yes. So I was getting factax. that's what asked for Your ego isn't going hold on I'm Jo Hart I'm available on a free. Why are people not Bhing the door down here becausecause the football in world makes the right decisions So if If I'm not fitting, I'm not fitting. It's not It's you know, no one's there's no personal vendetta about stopping me from playing the game. Norm, I'd imagine not many people were going N no chance. they were just going You know what? that doesn't work for us. We prefer go down this route doesn't work for us, we'd go down this route. because I know for a fact that you couldn't it's not like people going we've heard he's a bad person, he's a bad egg. It was none of that. It was just I didn't fit anywhere that I that I wanted to play and What can you do? I still had the a ear at Burnley, I said, All right, I'll stay and I'll plane Tom went. N Nick was buck fit Incredible goalkeeper, inccredible goalkeeper for Burnley and I just had to The window closed. so then I had to accept my position and do my best to do my best over ear the team that employed me Great group of guys. great group of players who were doing something that just didn't involve me at the time, but I was still part of the squad So stay fit, stay strong, stay active. January comes round what's available? Again, not surprised Nothing's available Nothing that I wanted to do And then COVID came. COVID came and obviously that threw everything into the air made everything difficult for everyone. I think I think my contract expired during whatever transrfer window was concocted during that time Ah to which I felt I'm free to just take a breath here. I'm out of contract. I need to be open to all conversations too which I obviously want to play. love I love playing football then I was able to have a conversation with one club about potentially coming in as not as a one to work and then show they wanted to speak to me about potentially working at Tottenham to which I knew for well. No Hug goes there, but he wanted to have a conversation with me to which I said, I can't speak to him until we've until everything else is off the table because I know I know him I know if I speak to him, I'm done. I'm signing Like he's an amazing person Uh, you know, so And it wasn't a conversation like he's a grown, I'm grown. It wasn't conversation where it'd come and say, you know? I knew he wasn't going to say, look If you do well, you'll be number one. I knew what the conversation would be. It would be a support to a top class goalkeeper Um who you never know might not play. in for injury or loss of form, but very highly unlikely, Hugo is an elite operator Anyways, I got to the point where I was like let's speak, spoke to him told him on'm. I told them I understood what would be asked of me and I'd love to come and help if I can help Tottenham and help him I said a look, I'm not telling you. I don't expect to come in as one I want to come and help the team, the squad and as long as you respect that, then you, you know, you'll have a plus person and goalkeeper to which he said Come on down. So I went down So Tottenam would probably be seen as a as a difficult time, it wasn't because I said when I agreed to go to Tottenham, I said to my people around me I said I need to accept the worst case scenario. if I'm going to sign up to this because I need to accept that I might not play a minute And It might be a very frustrating year for me. so I'm going to accept that in front of all of you So the I And you will never hear me moan about not playing a game Obviously in the conversations, it would be, you know you go as an older goalkeeper, there'd be moments where we're going to need you in the cups Europa League That was what was the conversation, but that's not promised. That's not. There's no contract that I sign that says that comes with it Um So it wasn't a difficult year for me. it wasn't played games that I played, when I did, I played well I did my best to help. in and around it was great to be around that environment. Son Cane, you know, back with Eric Hyberg, Josem Marinio, it was it was a proper environment. It's a COVID year. There's no fans. It's strange for all of us, really strange Um But that wasn't that wasn't anything other than I'd signed up for and to try and get the best out of it. Andt I did feel good there. I felt like I help to felt like an important part of the squad Whever' perived how it is but I'm sure I'd like to think if you spoke to anyone who is part of that squad then they'd say the same thing, Joe did his best to help the team like I have done when I played or not played I love her that you just through in their job you've got your people around you and You outlined, this is what I'm signing up for here. I'm not expecting to play No, no, I'm not expecting to play. but I'm saying I Look, I wanted to play fifty games at T them Of course when I sign the one dot inline, that's what I wanted But I said, you won't hear me complaining if. And that's a bit that really intrges me like whyy was that so important to publicly state that to your group? that you weren't going to complain and no one thought that I was being deluded and no one thought that They in the back of their head they Their advice would be to me if I went, you know what? I've got this great opportunity at taught them. And if I start pre season well and Get in the team I know my like these we go way back And I know ninetine percent of them would go miles off it. What youre doing? like you're deluded. You've lost the plot And rightly so, I would have been delluded to say that We all felt it as a team, we all felt that do get an opportunity in if or if however the cards fall, I get an opportunity. But I think there's a huge difference between being a possibility and that being the reason that we're going. Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to get it out like This is not me being defeatist This is me saying. us to move forward and us to all be comfortable what's going on I want you to all know that I do realize what I'm walking into here I love that though, because it reminds of like when we spoke to Steve Hanson, who was the head coach of the New Zealand, be union same he reveled in dealing with uncomfortable truths that idea of like you know let's lean into these things rather than deny them and pretend it won't happen. Let's lean into them and discuss the uncomfortable truth. and that seems to be hallmark of high performers like Steve and L yourselff. How important Have you found been prepared to confront comfortable to. I've loved. I do not I' loved in all moments good, bad or indifferent.ve I've love clarity And that was me being clear. ye I' that's when I felt Best And I don't mean performance wise, not a performance wise. I mean at best in how I behave and how I want to I want to act when I've got clarity Like I say, like Very easily could that be seen as someone who's waving the white flag But I think if you're open and clear, like everyone Like I say, my people that matter, they know me and they understand that I'm going there to do business, but I'm also not deluded and I'm also realized that there's I'm going to have to be part of a greatreater good of which I was trying to be And how did it end the tonn? Us not well. didn't need to end how it ended if oneest the new manager came in club realized that they needed to make changes, he had different ideas, of which I wasn't one of them. right Yeah, a bit of a random conversation. Ab where I stood you say He said that he didn't feel comfortable No because I' asked him. said, do we need to have a conversation? because I knew they were bringing another goalkeeper in Yeah. Obviously Hugo was number one. club capaptain, so it's not doing the maths And they didn't quite work So I said do we need to have a conversation? Yeah, we'll have a conversation after the training. This was a couple of weeks in You go first that you know, he wouldn't feel comfortable playing me. He didn't feel like I was a level to which could work in one of his teams Fine al Qeda. Yeah If that's how he felt then fair enough But It was wrong. onene and two If you need me to go, just tell me like I'm a grown up, can you can have a good conversation. But he might have felt that. I might be wrong. I might be completely wrong. I didn't feel it need to go that way Whever, like I say, the world It doesn't revol around me. and then had a year left on my contract and taught them in the business that they are. Yeah. Obviously then they needed to move me on and I was quite cool with Okay, that's enough though. Yeah. That's enough Had he you not got a bit more personal than that, though, no know, didid I read? that No, what you read it would have been what he said, but I can't remember what it was, but what I said? and what you read would have been what it was say. So something like You wouldn't play a minute for me. Yeah. orr you haven't got you've not got the strength. Yeah. was there's a moment in your life where in your career maybe he was giving me advice in his opinion as apparently he played in goal. Mbe mayaybe he felt that at some point and he felt like he saw that in me. I didn't agree That's what he felt he needed to do and that's what the club needed to do. But yeah, like I said say, club Tham then need to They're a good business, they're not going to have me sat there and two other goalkeepers because Pierre Golini was already in the door But I kind of went home, I was like, you know what I've had enough. That's cool I think I think I'm okay with W this be my final final page. I feel like I've got a lot to give, but there's no real space for me in in the footballing world anymore. And you know, I've had a good ride so problem. We'll chill And then the club, I think obviously put the feellders out and I'd spoken to whispers of speaking to Celtic previously And of which, you know immediately got me interested And then they have said, would you have a conversation with Anchroposto Hugleli I said Of course I will. like I'm always open to conversations, completely open Why not I didn't know Ange. I didn't know I didn't know his pedigree. I knew that he'd just become Celtic manager. And u, spoke to him and it was a veryer, very, very honest conversation, especially from my point of view. I said, look Please don't let me come across as theeed, but. I'm in a spot here where I'm I don't know if I want to be a part of the professional world of football anymore said I' not I'm not sad, I'm not down. I just don't feel I fit. And for me to fit I said, I need to be I need to be given a chance I need to be understood And I want and I want the opportunity to play. I said, just please listen to me when I'm saying I'm not telling you. do that I'm saying that's what I need to get the best out of me engine incredible. redible, my manager said, you know what I've done my research on you, so I'm not going to try and fill you out as a person who said I've spoke to enough people about you. for me to not have to even make a decision. He said foootball wise, I can't promise you anything but I can promise you an opportunity So if you do come up here U And you do want it, I feel like it could work. You know, I also said, look Family wise, I said football's not number one in our house anymore So if I do come, I'm coming on my own I said but You don't have to trust me, you don't know me, but just trust me that I'm all in. I'm completely all in I will be working between the two on days off and things like that. So I don't want that to upset you. And if that's going to upset you and upset the balance in the dressing room then putting all my cards on the table. and he said, lookook, look tell you how it's all going to work, but that' that's not a big no no for me. I feel like we can start a relationship and and we can go from there. which I said, that's enough, that's enough for me That's enough. the fact you're even willing to listen to My so called demands, they're not demands, but like what would really make me tick and potentially get the best out of me I'd do anything for you like Let's do this. So Bam bam bam Tot, obviously I think it was muted that there was some sort of price or some sort of a transfer fee Not that I'm aware of. It was contract done yeah. Can I get myself up the road? which I did M that feels like a really brave thing. I think even when you've gone j out, I'm feel think I'm done with football That's one thing then get an opportunity at a club as bigg as sell to can still say to the manager, look I don't feel I fit in football anymore Like that takes some bravery and maybe a bit of fit I was just being honest I did not think that I could do it. I knew I could do it. Did you worry though that like This could remove an amazing opportunity if I say this No because I wanted to be honest with someone I just wanted to tell them the truth and I didn't feel, I didn't know Celtic at the time, but I knew enough about them that you don't mess with you don't mess with that club in terms of We don't play games If that conversation was was someone else, maybe slightly local to him, do I say those things? Maybe not Maybe not because I'm like, you know what? becausecause it's work at the end of the day. It's like can't get away from it. This is a job. I you're a professional footballer I don't have to love it. I'm just lucky that I do. And most of the places I've gone I've been madly in love with it But I was going to go up there, I needed to be in love with it. I needed to be given the opportunity to fall in love with it and So I didn't I didn't feel vulnerable now And when people talk about ange, I mean One of the features that often comes out is my management is ability to build relationships. And you've spoken about being something importance here Once you've delivered these uncomfortable truths to him and he's decided to accept that football's not number one in your house and the different geographical arrangements What did you do that sort of lit that spark again that made you think I'm gonna relocate to Glasgow, I'm going to go all in Nothing just let me be I didn't need anything else. I don't need anything else to be lit There wass a spark in me. Um Always He just let it burn if you like. Ive got something out of you though that am didn't Burnley didn't, Westtham didn't somethingomething happened I don't know, I don't know. because at Burnley, I don't feel that I played badly. I still felt like I was playing well it just obviously didn't We didn't do well as a team Tottenham I signed up for something where kind of evenven if you do play well, there's a well established top goalkeeper that they've already got in their books who unless anything Ridiculous happens. so like I say I was still Ecuse me at a level that I felt was My level. What I think is very interesting about this right? is that we all have a perception of what we think you have to be to be a good footballer, right And we have a perception of what you don't need to be to be a good footballer A if you we look at your career, right? when you were absolutely one hundred percent all in the tunnel for England, right People were using that as criticism Fast forward ten, twelve whatever year is to when you're at Celtic and you're basically on this football's no longer number one and look at the performance you're putting in So maybe we need to totally rethink. It' still number one in my It my being might be. It had a freedom, I think, of like, it wasn't everything anymore, was it? It wasn't what it was when you were eighteen M. But I've always it wasn't everything then. I wasn't thinking how can I get to the top? It was just absolutely play and enjoy it. L I still So I don't know if I've not communicated it right, but when I said it wasn't number one in my house, it was that There are far more important people in terms of stability and a living situation but it was still onnce I was in Glasgow, once I was on the training field. It wasn't thinking about anything else, but you have freedom, maybe Like you were more mature, you had other things in your life and that was probably good for you I think that was the same been the same lunatic. Yeah. I don't know. I might be wrong. Yeah what you're saying makes sense, but I'm just I just want to be really clear that I'm still as passionate, as involved, iss just living wise. That was it. So what was the situation like at home where you've gone home from Tottenham and said, I think the chapter is closed now or maybe football's done and then However long after You' end saying, I'm going to relocate Os to Glasgow What was their reaction It was just a constant communication. likeike I say from when I learned that all that time ago to Beuse I could have easily just said, just bear with it. We'll see what happens. But instead I was like, I went home and I said, you know what? I'm not sensationalizing this. I don't know whether I don't know because when you need a new club, you need to fight for it, you need to search for it You need to be on the phone to your agent. You need to be Working out who's like doing the chest moves. That's what I've loved not doing. the chest moves. If he goes here and he goes there's an opportunity. I said, I I'm not in that zone anymore. You're not going to hear me trying to work out a situation. If this is what it needs to be, then this is what it is, obviously to which you know, she said and everyone around me You know you've got a lot more to give. I said, yeah, I know that, but There's no point in me putting my energy into something that's not there And you know, like I say that everyone's been on the ride and understood that that's true. They couldn't really argue. it's true I was only telling the truth. So it wasn't a case of not having the energy or not being good enough. there just wasn't necessarily a place And then I come home and I got told that to have a conversation. so I just passed that on And I the conversation went. I walked in and passed how it went How you feeling quite like the sound of it Okay, keep me updated If we if I do go, I've told them that you're going to stay Let's talk about Celtic. All right Tell us about Celtic football club What you want know whatever you want to tell us I don't know. I don't know. it's u It's a special place that will forever in my heart and a team that I support and I'm incredibly proud to play for. great a great experience, something that I , like I say, I'm very proud to have done So from the outside, we think we know what it must feel like to play for Celtic a big club, you know amazing atmosphere passionate fans. Glasgow is this golfish bowl of Pressure, expectation, passion. What is it actually like P for Celsic. It's all those things, but at the same time it's It's very personal in such magnitude, there's a real personal feel to it especially being up there, getting to know people, you know, making friends. everyveryone associated with the club veryer much wanting to find out how you are, how you feel, you know How they feel you're performing, what they feel can Be better. always something on the horizon, always, you know, some sort of Madness bubbling away, brewing. or some sort of adventure around the corner Um just a really high octane place to play football and really, really enthrowing thing I absolutely loved and It was everything that I love about football And can you tellell us how it felt to suddenly be central to a team again after a few years in the wilderness, perhaps I seem to be playing brilliantly to be picking up trophies, like to be almost back to how it it started. It felt right I felt right, you know, we talk about, if I look at my career I know we've probably gone into more depth about less than ten percent of it because that's what's interesting. I get I get that bit's interesting. I really do because a lot more thoughts and a lot more Um, emotional decisions were made, but like The majority of my career has been a number one has been playing well has been leading been lif in trophies And So it felt right And you said after your final game, I've never felt professionally this special my entire life Cid you explain that Um, So I got to do something really unique, I think, because footballs Fast business, fast business and I got I decided I was going to finish Um I wanted to own the fact that I was going to finish told people early M. told of truly special ball cllub I was going I wanted to finish with them because I love them I didn't want anything else. I didn't want anything else in football. Whether it had anything to offer me, I don't know. D didn't even put myself and didn't have to do those chest moves if he moves here. D didnn't even want to go into that and spoke from the heart about something that was and it might not have gone well. We could have easily, you know, we were probablyably second in the league when I said it and we had a cu final where we werere going to have to play our great rivals. I could have walked away ot this in my last season Um, But I just wanted people to know that even though I was finishing, I wanted to finish strong And then Did finish strong Got into a beautiful flow team really clicked, Brendon. really got us playing how we wanted to play. got we've got who we were and we've started to really perform buzz of the club, like no matter how many trophies they win when you're playing well, it's an absolute buzz that the drums were going, the fans were singing. The flares were going off the And it was it was just an incredible feeling. and then there was they asked me to do a um They asked me to do a A night, a night with Jo Hartp to which I immediately said Because I said when I wanted to retire that I didn't want to talk about it. I wanted to do what I need to do, say what I need to say press that day And then we'll deal with everything else after the season because the team comes first. winning the league comes first the And they asked me wouldould you do a night with Joe Hart with about a month too I said no. And and then I said You know what You're willing to do that for me They were like, we'd love to do that for you I said that's amazing. That's absolutely beautiful. and I don't feel comfortable doing it, but I'm going to do it because For you to even come here and ask me to do that is special at Just let me know what I need to do So we did a night, we did a night with with Joe Hart feels weird talking about my name, but that's what it was And what was it fans invited to come and do a Q and A? Yeah, it was a Q and A on stage. We brought a few people up. Dave Watson came up U Mike could did a bit for me, Brendon and Cum on Brendon Callum on stage. ninetiney minute show. uh they they put it out to the real because I made some great friends up there Billy Tom andywan, shout out who made my My life great up there. We did a lot of golf together, spent a lot of time together and they were one of them's a You know whatever class fan where he gets the tables and stuff like that. And he said, they hardly put out to anyone and it was a seven hundred peopleeople sell out and they got that within an hour, which was like which was special, which and I didn't really get the magnitude and I didn't actually I didn't invite enough people from down South, but I end last minute I ended up getting a few people up because I didn't know what was going on. I was like just sat on stage and just went through it and just really enjoyed talalking about my experience and being honest loving the fact that I'd done it. So that was that was special. then We managed to win the league. You know, we had So we had a really great Derby win home. No, we went went away drew through all in a mental game then not put. I think we were still points behind, but it meant that I win at home a couple of weeks later would mean that we'd be in the driving seat And we won that game. It was an unbelievable game game. Th then the semif final Mrter penalty, saved a penalty. like the story was just getting a bit silly. I actually said in the in the warm up at the semif final Goie coach Stevie Woods who I'm really close with was exceptional for me pull them about twenty five minutes into the warm up because I've been emotional with him prereviously when I was gonna to finish I said, I feel really uncomfortable. I said, E feels right. I said, I can't I'm catching everything Everything I'm doing is right. I said, I feel really, really uncomfortable. because Becauseuse it shouldnt it didn't feel like it should go that way. Like life doesn't work like that, does it? You know I said, just keep me grounded He's like, you are, but I will. I was well enough in the war. I said keep me grounded I don't like. I'm feeling a bit'm I'm enjoying it But I'm aware We were one kn down after three minutes. So that was that was a nice little whack in the chops, but whatever Anyway, then we managed to win over win the league atmosphere was unbelievable And then we had a home game to celebrate winning the league to which It was almost it was like the kind of Joe Hart day, which made me uncomfortable what my teammates were. Unbelievable with me like So good with me And Won't I It was getting a bit bit much about me and they were and obviously, I'm always going St done there say thank you when people are being nice to me, you know A. And they just sat back and let me be me And then we had a special last day season A L lot of fuss made not comfortable talking about it in a positive way A Really, really nice day. and then we had a cup final. In our great rivals. And we win in the ninieth minute fifty, fifty split handem Well, yeah. What you say? is emotional now even thinking about that period Yeah, I'm a happy emotional person, right? So I'll cry when I'm happy and when I've got good things to say And was that was me for a long for a good couple of months that moment where you came out with that TFo. I'm watching it on the telly, it was emotional at home. I was watching with my little boy and he was mesmerized by, I can't imagine your emotions at that point. Well I didn't expect anything. I really didn't. I'd already got more than I ever ever could have asked for in terms of treatment and words and how my family were treated. And then I came out for the second half and I love that corner, the Green Brigade. love the energy that comes from that corner of their every away game and the bounce and the energy and the songs. likeike that's me, that's me. I'd happily be in there And I will be in there at one point in my life. kind of like the throb, the songs, the passassion for the club And I came out second half and I always I had my ball boy that I get on really well with. He gives me the ball, tests my gloves. second hal. Right, we've won the league but I'm still It's a big game I still got, you know, it's my last ever time at Celtic Park no Oh That's corner of my eye it must have already been up, but I didn't even know I was trying to compute what was going on.ike I really struggled to compute what was going on. I thought, Is that me? That's me These people Then they had a song that they sang And then out had to flip out I thought I'm trying to be professional here, but I've got I've got to appreciate this as as the guy we talked about previously And I did and I just took it all in and then just had to kindy click myself in the jaw a couple of times like right got work to do I've got a job to do And then I kind of myself back into it But then we had trophy lift and families on the pitch and That club celebrates in the last thirteen years won twelve leagues And still every single trophy is celebrated like it's everything. I love that about the place Um So that was a That was a special day, a day that will live me forever Ever and ever and ever and everyone involved And I love like the emotion it brings up, I love the gratitude you obviously have for it in This kind of feeling that I think sometimes we assume people in a position you're in there and they feel entitled. theyre like, of course, this is happening to me. You still have that wonderful almost childlike disbelief that You ended up position on that pitch as that guy Night. scared me a little bit and I'm not a guy who' scared either I'm not I always think, you know what? why not? let's go scant you It just scared me It just made me feel like This is a lot a lot of very good things happening in Not that good things haven't happened to me, but I know I've been there, I've seen how it flows Um That was it, That was what scared me. It' It didn't petrify. It just made me feel like I say when I spoke to Woodsy in that warm up. So I feel uncomfortable I didnt I didn' not like feeling that way because I felt amazing. Like I felt amazing. I was scared but also feeling great at the same time, you know. Well that takes you back to that That summer when you said that You felt unstoppable, you know And then what follows from it is almost survival instincts to protect yourself from. Yeah. what do you think inevitably follows Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. and I'll forget forever be on guard for that I'm also interested that you're the ultimate team, man. Everything you've spoken about here is standing behind the captain being the guy that everyone relies on and yet you look open is An evening with Joe Hart it's Joe Hart day. That's not about being a team player now. That's about you and the focus on you and I'm interested that it feels almost it's uncomfortable. How did you reconcile that I give myself a slap to get over yourself that some amazing people are doing some amazing things for you show some damn gratitude. And did that incredible finish? putut into perspective some of the more challenging e years you had before that No, because it was that was that was the moment I was in Do those moments for that There's no sense of proving people wrong Pve here wrong Anyone that didn't believe in you in those hard times now the right people that I needed mean everything to me. believed in me as a person and will continue to so I'm not out here. Do know? I've always I've loved thinking pro I've love proving people, right love to proven people right Damian, Jake There's so many things I want to pick up from that conversation. I think the first one is this idea that there's so clearly two sides to Joe Hart I loved it when he spoke about I had to be the wararrior. You know, everyone had an opinion of him in the tunnel against Iceland. And then you hear him say, Well It was my responsibility to make those guys feel that I was there fighting for them, scrapping for them. I needed them to see broad shoulders and take that on And yet at the same time, there's that Jo Ha who is ep emotional talking about his time at Celtic has this incredible ability to reflect and look at what li brought him in I think the reason why he was so emotional is I think he just has a really deep gratitude. for the incredible journey that football took him on You just described those two halves and He offered that really neat encapsulation of the guy that's shouting and screaming in the tunnel that's got that wild side to him as he said. And then the bloke that closes his eyes after the kickoff and just gives himself a moment of gratitude that He iss a young lad from Shrewsbury representing his country on the biggest stage those. T sides are not mutually exclusive. They're one of the same do that How many other elite sports people have we spoken to where they say, Oh, before every big game I take a moment? to reflect on the journey into very few. Yeah, very few. And I think that but those two parts make up the whole of him. It's a more complex nuance you know, fascinating character than what the media or what of a stereotypical view of a footballer Bay, I thought it was incredible to listen to him You know how we often overc compplicate stuff I love that right at the very beginning when he talks about one of his early challenges at Manchester City, the advice he's given by his love coach is the most simple bit of advice you could ever imagine. But it worked. Yeah, againain, lean into people. Do you know anything about this person? Do you know anything about his family, anything about his own struggles? because the moment that we connect with somebody is the moment that we can actually build that relationship. Remember Joe Wicks talking about his own father and he said that connection is the antidote to addiction We often want to push people away when we werere angry or we were upset or with disillusion with them. where there's actually the most effective way is to bring them close and to find common ground. And that was a great example of where any of us could do that. If you've got some somethingbody in your life that You're not getting the results out of, you're not getting the best out of them. Lean into them rather than lean away from them and see where that takes you. Thank you, mate. Thanks fine So they go two sides to Joe Hart and both of them Thoroughly extraordinary. The warrior who needed to be the last line of defense for everyone around him and the kid from Shrewsbury who never lost that pure love for the game. And I suppose the big thing that I took from this conversation, I remember talking to Damen about it afterwards. is that those two things aren't in conflict. They're actually the entire point. The intensity was also the gratitude, the fight was also the joy it's okay in life to have I think two sides to ourselves. If this one resonated, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. I really hope you enjoy the World Cup. The kickoff times are ridiculous, aren't they? I'm trying to work out if I can watch a single World Cup game with my son. I'm not sure what's gonna happen But listen, if you haven't already subscribed to High Performance Please do, please pass this on to somebody and wherever you get your podcasts. Ke on enjoying the show, keepep on leaving comments Keep on sharing and chatting to us. We've been going now for seven years, would you believe Thanks for joining us. Hey, stay humble. Stay curious, stay empathetic. And we'll see you next time.