Finding Joy and Balance Outside Racing

there was not one part of you that thought that phone call was coming am Lawson has been removed from the role after just two races. The whole thing was played out to be me being mentally struggling and all this stuff. just could not be further from. What if this actually like? I think nothing as well can stay really a secret. It's quite crazy how There'll be like a conversation which is between two people And it's insane how quickly that just gets out. What is the cost for you of this life? Is it fair to say that after what happened with Red Bull the effects of that you would have carried for all of our seasons. I tried not to, but I definitely did yeah I tried to adggest as much as possible You know, I even like pretended it never even happened kind of thing because I spent, you know, two races there and the whole way that whole The way it all went down was just It's just so crazy that I just honestly kind of was like I'm just gonna pretend I never even went there and my whole pretty much everything else I've done was with VCar and forormul onene, so do we not understand or what have we not been allowed to see that is actually the thing you'd like us to understand about that time Th let me say probably firstly, I you know, I could have done You can always do a better job. So I look at that stuff, I look at those two races. If I want to reflect on them, I can go I know and I did at the time. I could have done I could have done a better job in some ways. But I think just the way, you know, we did We did really no testing half a day in Harareth before the season And even then our barian testing was very was very compromised as well. We had some issues and I just went into the first weekend very unprepared Um And did you feel that I did, yeah, but I just keep telling myself that I will just deal with it. You know, it'll be fine But I think We will back ourselves, but there is, you know, with how close, especially last year It was so close Like If I'm three ths off max I'm out in Q one pretty much It's so close. So it's just like, you know, you had to be or maybe five tenth, something like that. it was really It was really, really close season. so The difference between the, you know, top teams. you know, I remember Abbe Aby last year you too I missed out I think I missed out on going through to Q three, but there was like seven cars within a tenth. and the midshield It was wild So That made it hard for sure Um But it was just a preparation that we we we, I don't think, did a good job at all. then you know, maybe I could have done a better job as well. And then Melbourne was Um We you know I missed P three with an engine issue U if we had planned to do two soft highire runs before Collie So I kind of went in a queity with no soft tie running and then I made mistakes and that's where I was unprepared going in, but I tried to make up for it and locked up went off, which I never do. likeike it was just stupid mistakes that I never do knnocked out then I'm soiding the rightice to the back and then We went to China and it was sprint weekend. I'd never driven there and it was just kind same kind of thing. China just make up for lack of preparation and just mistakes, like little mistakes. And last year it was, you know You miss up a corner out it laps down. It wasn't. You had to put it out together. You couldn't this When it's more separated, you can kind of get away with little mistes here and there Especially when you have the year of energy making such a big difference when last year it was that close You had to put it all together and I just didn't do it in either of those two weekends. And that was it then there was a race in China. We'd spoken about basically trying something quite wild on the car to get some comfort for me, but also because the team, you know at the time collectively we weren't happy at all with the car. Max wasn't happy. you know, everyone was like this is not this is not working Um and We need to try something quite radical here. And so we all kind of had a meeting on Saturday night And it was sort of decided. and I was on board with it because the idea was let's try something quite crazy, but it might help get a direction for Liam and for the team going forward to make this car a bit easier to drive. And so We decided, okay, let's start from the pit lane and basically radically change a car. We made a massive like a change you would never do on a race weekend. R You know, like a normal change times ten. T trying to do what trying to get basically trying to get a similar sort of trying to get the same sort of balance out of the car just in a very different way an easier car to drive, a more stable car to drive Um and Basically, but it's a it's kind of a shot in the dark. And even if it kind of works, you know, the chance of it working over a race was very low. And I knew all of these things, but It was sort of proposed to me as a This is going to help you for the future and this is going to give us a bit more of a direction. We're going to try this Right, you know, starting last race is kind of done anyway. Let's just try something and this will help you And so I ran it, it sucked for this race. likeike the car was so so hard to drive and just killed fronts and like basically Um destroy our race but honestly, I didn't care at the time because I was like This is You know, there's a reason we've done this and then flew back to the UK for simulator on whatever it was a Tuesday, Wednesday And then on Monday I get the phone call. Oh actually were switching you I was like what Why did we do? Like if you told me before the race, okay We're going to runun this Crazy car for your last race in a Rd Bull, or we're gonna run the setup that you do. You've run a weekend What do you think I would haveve said? you know, it was just kind of like that That at the time was like a really hard thing to deal with, but then I had Japan literally the next week or the week after. I just didn't have time to compress or think about any of this and I had to then go to VCAPp and just try and do the best, you know, prepare and do the best job possible. But it made that whole Experienced squad Quite tough. I think the hardest thing there, well is obviously There's obviously this story of We're going to We think this is the right thing to do on the car. Okaykay, I'll go with you on this and let's see. Oh, by the way, you didn't perform with that decision that we made, therefore, you're right. I mean the thing is this performance was in used against me, which regardless of the two races, whatever it, you know, in any case, two races on two tracks I've never been to in a season like that Like I won't accept that you can judge me off that. It's such a team game. so You know, you have to be everybody is working together and That was just Obviously Not what I felt when that when that happened So do how do you process an emotion like that Well, I was I didn't really have time, you know, like I just And I don't think I ever really did because then I was just straight into the rest of the season. And then you could say, okay, you know maybe get the summer break and you can look back and try and reflect on it. But honestly by then I was just like, who cares? you know, I'm now I'm now and I'm now I've already done half a season I'm now in this position So I never really fully reflected on it or thought about it too much. W respect him, That doesn't sound accurate what you've said because He told us that there was a period where you thought about, I'm to pretend this hasn't happened. so you went into this association. And yet The story you've just told us there is incredibly well thought out and well reasoned and balanced. You obviously have reflected on it at some stage How did you do that and how did you and who helped you with it? I think I just remember it. think I think I remember It's more like I remember everything that happened. I don't know. it depends on how you look at it. Maybe that's reflecting on it, thinking about it. You know, now when I talk about it, maybe that's you know me reflecting on it, but I never really What I mean is I never really afterwards sat down and broke it down and thought about everything properly. I justs that's the story. That's how it happened. Um, but then I really was straight into Japan, triple Hiter. And honestly from that point I was never I didn't really think about it too much again unless I was talking about it or it was brought up or something like that. But I never yeah, really broke it down This is what I mean by You've never had the chance to speak to a psychologist or a therapist or a really kind of I unpick this. I have somebody that I'm very lucky to have in my life that's been with me since I was young and he's been my coach s since I first moved to Europe and he was basically somebody that I speak to all the time anyway. I still speak to now And's he's played a massive role in like me as a person. I think I'd have a very roably different personality if I didn't actually haveave him growing up in Europe racing so Yeah, I spoke to him a lot through all of it And he was he was very He was very good to talk to about it. And what was he able to say that made you feel better? U I mean, the main thing is like all this stuff was happening and there was nothing I could do about it you know, once it had happened. So I was obviously frustrated, devastated at the time But there was nothing I could do about it anymore And so it's very it's a very normal thing to say, but it's just focus on the things that you can control and like breaking that stuff down and going, okay, look, it's all done You're still in Formula onene. And that's the thing I think I thought about a lot was There's a lot of guys that. badly treat and, you know, and unfairly, you know treated and informal one. and We're out Over the years, there's many cases where guys you'd argue that wasn't fair Jack doing You know, somebody who did five races That is not fair to judge somebody. I had two in a red Bull even five races as a whole is not fair to judge somebody in forormula one Um I gained in a season like last year But I still how to drive So that was what I tried to really focus on. and that's what we talked about a lot. You know, you still have an opportunity to prove yourself here You still have an opportunity to build a fure in Formul one That's all still there without focusing on the fact that I lost the dream drive that I wanted since I was young Make sure you stay where you are because in a moment, Liam's going to explain to us how it really feels when the world has an opinion life you're living in Austin without the full knowledge We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. I think the other thing watching from afar that was difficult with this was I remember when you went into the VCarb and it was like right now he can at least do what he what he loves to do to show the world what he can do I thought the hardest thing wasas how everyone had an opinion about something that they knew nothing about. Yeah. mean particularly when And I think you've said this since that you didn't feel broken in that car. Matter of fact, you've just explained to us, you obviously didn't feel broken in the car in the Red Bull because you were willing to go on a journey with the team to explore What could be done? So for them to then come out and say, Oh we saw things from Liam crazy. that was yeah, that's exactly right. The whole thing was played out to be me being mentally struggling and all this stuff and like they were doing it to protect me. And that honestly just could not be further from what it was actually like So yeah, it's again at the time like those two weekends, I remember I R remember There was a lot. there was really talk about, okay, you know, he's it's a hard time for him. He must be struggling mentally and stuff like this So and I thought rather than me getting out there and saying, I'm totally fine. You know? and argue against that. I was like, you know, let me take my responsibility here and say, I can do a better job, which is what I tryed to do on this two week. And see every time I get in front of a camera it wass like I was trying to be Gateful and say You know This is not good enough I need to do a better job, but then it was all that was taken to Oh he's mentally struggling. That's why we're helping him out. So how does it feel when you see a narrative that's been written for you that you fundamentally disagree with It's well there the thing is honestly, there's so much of that in Formula onene that When it first starts to happen, it's more of a you're like, wa, that's Totally wrong, and then you start to really think about it, but honestly, it's happened so much now, especially with all that's happening. over the last twelve months. You just honestly You start to just ignore it to be honest, because there's so many opinions and rumors and things that go around that are just So untrue and If you really focus on every single one, it would drive you crazy So and then it goes down to how much you even look into social media and stuff like that and that's something I've just pretty much removed from from my life you know, especially the forormula onene stuff, like every single forormula O account Um it's muted. likeike it's just completely muted so I don't see anything. to do with it online So I had people telling me like, oh, did you hear about this? No No idea Does that help For me, it did. Yeah, for me it made a big difference. There's like little things that have happened to me over short career and foral one so far that have like, I think, at the time been quite big But I've looked back on and been grateful for. and I think That was a thing in Mexico where I realized. the stuff with Chaco When I first came in, and twenty twenty twenty four Um and we had our incident on track and then came in and I hadn't even had Instagram notifications muted at that point. And it was just my phone. I've never seen anything like it and the messages comments on posts craziest stuff you could imagine people saying even now, like if I wanted to pull it up and go through Right Um Go find like my requests and stuff like this and have you can't even imagine some of the stuff that people are saying Um What sort of things? L just the most horrible things, like, you know, just like former one fans that are supporting a driver But then the driver that they're in competition with, they just go and say They just they like it's like support your driver, but I don't know. But not like a DM direct to you, justust a general comment. No no, DM directly to me. but like for me for me to see it, I have to go in and go into my like requests to see it, which I just don't really do. But if I wanted to and have a look, you could see then you see all the requests. And when you did see that What was the impact I was like, my, wow, people are really First of all, there's a lot more people watching than I realize Which honestly, I was so naive when I came in I just didn't even think about that. And then I was like, okay, this is really serious. ends Um, Yeah. and then I was just like, this is just not healthy to, you know, be reading and looking at. So that's when I just like wiped it clean. U I actually deleted all the apps at the time. So for the rest of that season, I had no social media And then I reinstalled it side of twenty five and was like basically just I just want to see my friends and my stuff that I want to see. and got rid of everything else I'm interested to explore this with you if we can because I was involved in F one heavily at a time where social media wasn't as prevent as it was now In fact, I remember you used to have to have an app called Twit pick to put a picture on Twitter It was like a whole separate app. you did. it was a different time But it was really positive Twitter was used as a place just to praise people. and no one could believe they were getting access to people that were previously separate from them. I think the first time I really saw turned was when Lewis and Max were going head to head in twenty twenty one stopped being Max fans supporting Max. And Louis fan supporting Louis And it became the fans of those drivers spending far more time criticizing the other drivers. Exactly than supporting their own driver And I really think we can have a brief conversation here. I really hope Formula One fans see and understand is The impacts on human beings. when this stuff is happening. Yeah. And how it's become the most normal thing in the world. to send a DM to someone which the worst possible thing. The worst possible thing you could ever write, like you could think of You know And it's Like over driving a car inide literally, you know, I just want to yeah, exactly. that's exactly right. Like the thing is it's just become so much more normal. And so like you said, it was that it just was never a thing And then at the start, like you said, it was it was this is a way to support our drivers and then it was Now this is a way. that we can criticize But it goes I mean, it's for us, it's like this, buts now it's the same with like kids growing up, you know, in school and stuff like that. You can't escape it at all. and it just ends up being every day at all times. You can basically have access to do stuff like that And it's becoming so much more normal now. And it's in politics, and it's in all other sports and it's in everyday life. I think conversations like this are great becausecause I think people can actually see you rather than just a guy with a helmet on But what is your message for people that send those things, not just to you, but to other drivers, to other sports people peopleople they're at school with or friends with I mean, it's really it is that as if we're just normal people at the end of the day, like it we're just much as we're on TV and you know We are very lucky to be doing this, but for us we're chasing our dreams and driving and for us it's driving driving a race car and That's what I wanted to do when I was five years old and I'm very lucky to be doing that now. but I think it's amazing how much the sport has grown and We genuinely love the sort of support that we have I just think support your driver You know, we love that when we get the support that we get You don't have to criticize Especially when you don't it's more the unknown part of it. I think there's so much. Probably people just don't actually see or understand. ends We'll just jump on something straight away and I don't know. I think The main thing is support your driver, but you know, you don't need to criticize other people. But having come through what sounds like a prettyity Herrific set of circumstances. you know, you are still a And that old saying that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger When you look back over the last twelve months, what would you say? you're your strengths have been. it Is it technical, psychological, emotional? It's definitely the psychological stuff. It's just building a resilience to that, I think is for me the biggest thing. like kred when I came in probablyrobably more as much as we would say we don't. L it it's new. and like I think I did. likeike it was like I said, I got those I d my phone bl up and I was like, wow, this is crazy. like I didn't exxpect this and through all those experiences in over the last el months. I think now I'm just in a much better position where I just honestly Don't care And and I feel That's something I also try and look back on 'cause it's so easy to think that stuff is unfeair. likeike you always think, Ohh Especially in motorsports, it's the most like there's so many variables. Yeah, we look at other sports like golf and tennis and Even Mote across, like I love to do bikes at the moment and I watch it and I just think It's down to You know, there's differences and bikes, you know, little differences, but it's down to the rider or down to the player. and that's it and whereas for us there's so many variables that come into it that it's so easy It's a basically think that you're unlucky when stuff like this happens or that you have bad luck or Um But I think looking back on all the stuff that has happened, I think now, I'm so much better for it. I'm in such a better place And I'm such a better driver and all red person for it, honestly So can I just explore that a bit more? because we have lots of young people that listen to this. And I think when you say we don't care, I think there's a subtext that I'm heving, you said what name is, you don't care about people the I that haven't earned the right to give you an opinion. I'm sure you do care about certain people in your life. So how have you decided who are the people that when they speak to you, you go, I' want to listen to you But anyone else hasn't earned that right? I think I love the support, you know, so when people are very supportive, that's great, you know, and we definitely love that. but it's the It's really I don't care about. If I don't know somebody and they're giving me an opinion on what I should be doing Um That means nothing, you know, any moment to me, you know, because you know, I have people around me that I trust and those are the people that I go to and listen to And like I said, you know, we all love we all love the support that we that forormmer one has right now. It's in an amazing place and the good support is great. but all the opinions and stuff, all the Th that are written, the press releases that go out about, you know, things opinions mainly, but on things that we should or shouldn't be doing Um, it's that stuff that I think You just yeah, I just don't even really think about it anymore So there's a Chinese proverb right that I love and this is obviously how it translates to English If you missed the bus Maybe you actually avoided an accident. Yeah. If you got rejected Maybe you were actually safe from being in the wrong place If they left Maybe they were actually making room for someone who's about to come into your life The universe protects you in ways that look like bad luck at first But you have to trust the detal. So my coach that I mentioned since I was sixteen years old has been telling me exactly that. basically. That's something that we talk about a lot was just, you know, every time I'd be like somethingomething would happen. he'd just be like, Yeah, but you don't know could have happened if you'd done, you know, if that it had happened or something like that Um everythingthing in life as well with airport plane delay, You know,'re sitting on the plane for an hour or something like that and you're like, this is so stupid. Why am I, you know, why has this happened? And this is like you don't know what has happened, what that's doing to protect you maybe Ctely. I mean, ye there are stories of people who spilled coffee on their shirt or bumped their car or left something in the house. deled going into work and were not in the World Trade Centre buildings. when they were attacked. At the time, they would have been frustrated and annoyed that their day at work was being interrupted. How grateful they are for those. But look how grateful they are inccidents. Yeah. And there are thousands of things that could have happened to us in our lives, of which we have absolutely no idea whether what looked like a good thing at the time actually is the worst thing ever. And equally what feels like the worst thing ever. Yeah. actually eventually can be the best thing that ever happened to us So here's the interesting place that we've got to here haveave you Because I know you didn't have the time to process this last season because it was relentless and it was unforgiving and it was about suddenly showing that you still deserved and needed to be in F one You've had A bit of time off over the winter You've said you're in a great place and I would fullyree, having watched you this season. I think you're driving brilliantly Have you reached a place in your life yet Myo you're able to be grateful for what happened I remember. Yeah, I honestly do. I think that's that's that's exact and it comes exactly back to that basically But now whenever I think about it, I think exactly what I said, you know, now I feel like I'm in I'm a fer driver and a more resilient driver and especially in Today's Formula one with how much outside noise there is Really that's it's so much more of an important part now to be a good driver, to be a good basasically be good for one right now. you have to be A able to drive the car fast, you know, but everybody can And it's all really that other stuff that you have to be really I think resilient too and I think that's something that I'm now more grateful for because there was so much going on around it so much noise at the time and Like to navigate all of that was it was really hard, honestly at the time. likeike it was very tough But look at the evidence you now have. Yeah. You have evidence that the hardest thing that's ever happened to you in your life, you were able to deal with it Yeah What was for you the hardest moment So I think the China weekend, even like before I was actually out I remember The hotel I was in it was like an an hour from the track it was really far away and the drive some of the drives that I had between the hotel and the track I was in the car and I was just sitting there and I was thinking about Everything that was going on, it must have been probably after qualifying, I' had a really bad quality. and I was just reallyally like really I was pretty upset just about what was going on, you know, like Um trying to deliver a result and then Just that whole that sort of four or five day going back to London beinging excited to just go back to work and then Basically getting the phone call and just having feeling like there's nothing I don't know, like I wish I' had a heads. I wish I'd known and had heads up And just there was not one part of you that thought that phone call was coming whichich is crazy becausecause I remember thinking there was earlier a couple of rumors around that weekend There was like a there started to be a rumor about Okay You know, Japanese grand Prix coming up Yuki's Japanese You know, do they do the? And I remember I honestly remember trusting my team so much I was like That's insane that they're even like saying that, you know, classic Fone rumors And then I went back and just I was like, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. Be we've spoken to coaches in different sports areas say that It' like we had the England Mubbilee coach on Seaan Wayne who said, Nothing I tell you should ever be a surprise to you because communication should have been constant that if you're dropped or Yeah you leave the end of a contract. that doesn't come as a shock because I'll have told you long before And he prided himself on a culture of just pure transparency What did that tell you about the culture that you were in at Red Bull? I don't want to maybe specify so much that it's just particularly red Bull, but it's just how Formula onene is there's so many people as well on a Formula One team. likeike it's quite incredible how You know, and they do an amazing job to work together as a, you know, well oil machine and you see Epecially the garage, see the mechanics everybody working here will have such a specific role. The engineering side of Formula one is Very, very impressive, but Outside of that, there's also, you know, the rest of the team. the business side of Formula one which has an incredible amount of people that work in it And when you have that many people working. It's You know, it's very hard Th things get lost in translation across between between people And u Yeah for that to be. thinkink. for me to understand, I don't know, for sure I can feel like at the time they could have done a much better job at communicating it to me U, and I wish they had of I think stuff like this sort of happens quite a lot. where People just don't, you know, people stuff rumors especially just sort of spread I think nothing as well can stay really a secret. It's quite crazy howll Yeah there'll be like a conversation, which is between two people. where it starts. That's first conversation about an idea And it's insane how quickly that just gets out 'cause I kind of I've been in those conversations And you know, for me it was about when I would be driving a car or when, you know Maybe I'd get a team change or something like this. When it was for me, when it was against me those conversations, I was thereful at the start of it and then just straight out of the media So how does that impact on Tust because you've spoken about being a team player. you took you went with the te in China with that idea because You're doing it for the team So then when you know that You're in a situation where conversations are not between us and we'll stay between us. How does that impact on you on the levels of trust in the team? Massively, but it's it's very hard to really trust to truly trust people is very, very hard Honestly, it's very, very hard We you know, for us, we look at it like where the two drivers of that get to drive these incredible cars And we have these amazing teams around us set up doing that are building these cars to, you know, for, you know, for us, but Everybody is on their own journey and the team and everybody is also looking after themselves, which is fair, you know, because it's their career, their jobs. So when you have situations It's very natural for people to protect themselves first. And I think this is also what happens quite a lot in situations it is very It's very hard to trust every, you know, to trust everybody is very, very tough And so I think for me, it's about having people that I know I do trust around me you know, mainly on a personal level, that that I go to And I think what's interesting about this trusting is that when you had that moment Where did you retreat to? the original Liam Lawson because this was the picture that you put on your social media that way. I mean you're a great artist, bro. You obviously don't like it's like, o my go, please don't show this. I mean even know what that what that is. But I did write if OneDriver. it looks like I've got s an There is if one sparkkes on my head, but for some reason I mean, it's quite a stomach on that guy. I did have one when I was younger. I did have it bit. But you've got the triceps perfectly. Oh yeah on the pictchure. working. I was so interested in why this was what you chose to share with the world in that. In that moment. I guess it was linked, right? It was I tell you what it was. It was a lot of it was a lot of making people understand because there was at the time there was so much noise around First of all, how much people think I sucked and why I, you know shouldn't be Fformmal onene and all these kind of things. and the amount of opinions that were going out and around and stuff like that ends through one of the most difficult times of my entire life justust trying to show people that look You know, it was just, it was my dream to do this and that's basically where where it goes back to and just, you know, you don't have to be. I wasn't going to say, stop telling him, you know, stop writing all these crazy things, but it's kind of just like Um, Maybe just Lay off the heat a little bit while I'm going through this crazy time because that's all I wanted to do Maybe it's a reminder that you're a human because the other it was two photos. One was you as a kid, like a reminder that there's a human being behind this. That's just a toe that wanted to race cars. A kid with a dream. Yep I love your backstory, right a your dad I mean, people need to understand your parents sold their house right for you to pursue your racing dream. You started this whole conversation saying like, I carry the weight of like family a lot of people on my shoulders. But your dad early on when you had a tough start in your carting career and you didn't am I right? You didn't win a race in your entire first season first season, Yeah, first year of racing. And your dad go, I don't think youre good enough for this. Well, he would tell me, I I'd come in basically and be like, dude, dad, the cart sucks, you know, my my first gu cart had like a rainbow steering wheel. This thing was like, it was not a good cart Um It was very, very old and the engines were just ones that came with it. they weren't you know carting now it's like you have to have like best of the best and This thing literally came with what it came with. And I ran this for a year and yeah, I just ran around the back literally fighting to just race anybody Which honestly again, even like I look back now, so grateful for that year because When I got good gear the race craft that I had versus kids around me was was so different, honestly versus like a kid that I grew up with that started started with the best and just didn't didn't have the same when it came to it, when it came to a last slap one on one dice That stuff that yeah, I got from that yeah. Not that he knew that he was doing that for me. You not think No I was actually was. I was like,' his dad just so incredible some sort of sports psychology that he gave his son a shit cart. No then filled his brain of doubt so that if he got through that, He built he built you? It did, but he didn't, he didn't know it. honestly. He didn't know it. sure Yeah I'm sure because yeah, because he would tell me, I know, you know, I know Liam. I know it's bad, but you know, You know, we can't afford and stuff like this. and then one day he obviously just got sick of my complaining and basically bought these two engines, these like two one, you know, won a couple of titles these two engines. and I remember when we put them on, we put them on for a qualifying of this big race. And when I say like I was had come from running last Literally los. put these engines off for qualifying and I remember looking at my dad and them like looking at me kind of like This is where we find out, you know, kind of like that moment and I went out and qualified poll. Like it wasn't like I just went to the front, you know, I qualified first and I could not believe it. And the best part is You have like, you know, people have like multiple engines that go kuting. We always were restricted. We normally had one good engine and then maybe a backup engine or something like that, but we'd have one good one and We got we loved it so much, you know, had this good engine, qualified first, had a good race and and We'd go to club days, you know, literally, club days and'd be like What engine should we run? Yeah, let's run the good one. And we ran it so much that it bow up basically. And then then we had to then borrow somebody else's, you know, engine again because Cting's expens. You pushed over this bit, but the bit that like stood out for me when I was sort of looking at your career was ability to keep going when you come in last is remarkable. Like lots of people would have sort of given up at some stage or decided that I can't have the best kit so I can't compete. Where did that? resilience and that confidence in your own ability come from that even when you come in last, you still believe With the right opportunities, I can do this. I think that comes from my parents because you know, when you look at at If you went back to, you know, six year old me starting G carts, and looked at You know, first of all, my family with absolutely zero experience in motorsport. My dad watched Formula One a little bit, watched vuper cars and that was probably it, but that had no understanding So like through the early years of go cutting, he's literally learning to tune engines and stuff like this. He would stand on a corner with go testing. And we did test more than anybody would go out there be a wet day And somebody told him that it was a good idea for me to run on slicks. So he would, you know, that's what we'd do. And I'd go out there on my go cart. And he'd stand on a corner and tell me, this is where you got a break Um like this is where you have to bite where I'm standing And as a kid, obviously, if your dad tells you that, you're just gonna to do that So I would and he would just keep taking a step. Again, this is all stuff like I find out afterwards, but he would just keep taking a step until literally I would fire off the end of the straight And found the limit and that's that's the limit. And then I would start breaking there and stuff like that was what we, you know, what we'd do growing up but he He gave me the mindset because my dad is one of the hardest working people that I know. U and watching him as a kid growing up working with the work ethic that he had and he would tell me that if he worked hard enough or something, Since I was veryingng if you were' hard enough of something that you can achieve it. And there's so much negativity in New Zealand, especially in Australia and that part of the world where Like if you're a kid, like I go to a go kat track now and, you know, kids, you know, want photos and autographs and stuff like that and I'll ask them What do you wantan to rice? And like honestly, a seven year old kid would tell me, Oh, I want to be from one driver like you, but it's too hard. you know, it's too impossible. you know, my dad told me, it's too expensive and I'm like You're seven years old You know, you you can't as much as something is very hard and very unrealistic. I feel like it's a terrible mindset or terrible thing to teach your son to have that mindset and That's why I feel lucky that my parents told me if I wanted to do something and I worked hard enough for it And that just stuck with me, honestly through through everything because I would get told when I when in the same situation, you know, even guys that I looked up to which I mightite mentioned, would, you know, say, meet them My moment of meeting one of my heroes said I want to be a Lon dri and he told me that it' Dude what you know I can't do that these days. And they were a forormul onene driver. they weren't a former one driver, but they were a pro They were a pro driver, yeah. pro driver. And I was thirteen years old going into my first racing season of u of cars, you know, how of go cars. I just want to twenty thousand dollars scholarship to raise this form of V car and a New Zealand former first car. and yeah And but I remember just not even caring a little bit. You know, you told me that and I was just like, oh, okay It didn't faze me at all. Like it didn't change anything. It wasn't like he told me that and I was like, oh That sucks I just didn't care. And so for some reason and I feel lucky that thats stuck with me, thats stuck with me all the way that like just not ever really Doubting that it would happen somehow That stuck with me all the way until You have any idea where that's come from? No. So I feel like it came from my dad, you know. And when I was very, very young, there's things that he would tell me Um, you know, the amount of Father son conversations you have on the way to a G kart track, sixix hour drives across the country likeike to a goo kart race. He used to get these CD's and there was this personless like coach that he found when I was I was like Young, you know, ten years old There was this coach that you know, he would listen to It was somebody that basically talked about the importance of getting sponsorship and networking and communicating, of work ethic of training and stuff like this and mindset And there were these different topics and I'd listen to them on the way to these races and seeven years later He's the coach that I started working with ironically when I when I came to Europe, it's Enzo And he basically It was wild. You know, I was a ten year old kid listen to his CDs and you goosebumps. Like listen I'd like listen to these CD's. No idea who this guy was And then seven years ye, seven years later I moved to Europe. started working with Ezo and he was with me every single race as my coach. Are you a believer in fate and those things happen for a reason? one hundred percent. Because I look back at my career There's just no way that the amount of things that happened when they did and so many situations where I was like That How did that not att the time that I thought was not a good thing which then I'm so grateful for because it put me in a bit position in other situations. So I just yeah, there's no way that the amount of things that happen for me that I always mean to do this. Lots of educators talk about the car journey home can either lightight flame in a young athlete or it can douse it, you know, like when parents are overly critical, they talk about it. Can you remember apart from the CD's Any sort of words of wisdom that you gave you on these long car journeys that that you still hold ono today. It's really that belief, you know, like I remember there was this race that There was this rice that basically was one of my first big, big races that I was doing as a kid and We just we just got these engines and like things were starting to work out. We' starting to be competitive and I knew it was this big race that was coming up, and we started testing for it and I remember him telling me, I must have been I must have been like a bit nervous for it or you know, a bit doubtful, maybe. I must have said something to him that maybe he made me was the reason he decided to tell me this, but he keeps telling me Like tell yourself, you're going to win. They just keep telling yourself, you're you're going to win this race. No matter what, you're going to win this race and Don't tell other people because my dad hates arrogance. Like if I ever became arrogant in a way that you know, he honestly would he was like, if you ever forget where you came from, I'll pull the pin on everything. Love that. and he had tald me that since I was real young. So he was always it was really important to not be arrogant but to be confident and there's a way you can do that without being arrogant. And I think that' self belief. And hed tell me this before this race, tell me over and over, just keep telling himself. And so I went to this race another the whole way there. I'm just telling myself, I'm going to win this, going win this and in this rice I spun off like I went to the back of the field side of the race buried And I remember like and honestly it should like it should have just been been over. but the importance of this race and everything we talked about, I remember like just having so much of a belief that I could still win And I just drove through the field and won this race and it was kind of crazy, but like it just that that story of that race and me realizing what I feel like I' potentially manifested leading up to it That stuck with me forever I remember I remember it so detailed now Billion. Yeah. Can I talk about some of the people that are around you now? Yeah You know, I think a lot of people don't understand the challenge for an antipideian driver. Because the European guys can still pop home and see Mum and dad at the weekend, they can still go to the odd Christmas party or whatever. Like you have to take on a whole other responsibility when you have to leave New Zealand or Australia and come over to Europe Um One of those things is having to have other people around you Can I talk a little bit about Alan Permain? and the culture that he's created at the team you're at now becausecause I think a lot of where you're at now mentally doesnn't happen if there's not a great culture where you are at the moment, what did they do for you what's back into last season over the winter. and the start of this season Well I think there was a couple of things There was There's one this there's last year The start of the season was when when I went back to VCAR was very hard and u, The basically always raced when I'd been with VCA both times before this. I'd raced with one side of the cararriage U And I worked with Pier who's with Harvard now. And for me coming into F one, I think he was and a like the perfect he's so experienced and for me he was like the perfect engineer to work with to learn about former one learn coming in But when the switch happened, The way it worked out, Isaac was working with him at that point. So I went to the other side of the garage and worked with a totally new crew. and started working with Ernie, who's in a different role this year, but he was my engineer last year in ESo ends I will always, no matter, you know, how how if my if one career, you know, pans out, I'll always reflect on him as being somebody that Honestly I don't know have saved is the right word, but kind of saved my, you know formula one career. he made a big impact last year because The car I was struggling with how it was to drive last year because there's always little things that drivers like out of a car. especially after driving a Rdball game back to VCup they are so different. despite what people think They are so different. There we go again. And like it was it was I was really struggling with it. and We kind of did we basically ended up doing something. He had an idea to do something that was a very what you would argue is a makes shift sort of fix for especially for if one with how high level it is. We did something that was I think ninety percent of engineers just wouldn't really do or not think to do because it it's quite a It's just a different thing to do, but He had an idea to do it and we tested it and we tried it and I basically drove it to the sein and I was like, what is this? because this is so nice. It was just the way the front suspension would work and the way the steering would work to me And you like more front end L more front end, but it's the response and like how you like it' super responsive. Super responsive how fast, especially how fast that, you know, that rack is and how it feels and that's something that yeah basically we he put on the car we ran it in Austria and I went from no points to qualifying six, finishing six season just turned around right there. And then we started we started scoring. So here's somebody that played a really big role in that Um And then obviously with Alen I think the difference is We work so closely with engineers And Allan obviously was, you know, chief, you know, sort of chief engineer when he was in the team. So when I was coming in Formulal one, that was his role So I already had so many technical conversations and engineering conversations and, you know car and driver conversations that you would normally have with an engineer with him So when he got that when he basically went to team prrincipal Nothing really changed on that side. We still have these That really close relationship and talk about stuff on a personal side on a caride but works for us. and I think that honestly has been something that It's been quite cool to in a different way that most Probably team principles don' Yeah. I find there's real parallels there though, between that example you said with Ernie coming up with a suggestion that you said ninety percent of engineers wouldn't have done it and the experience in China where you were sat in a meeting ninety percent of engineers wouldn't have come up with that solution either Yeah What intrigues me there is how you responded on that second occasion sounds to me that You were still open minded, you were still curious and He was still trusting other people despite what What has gone on earlier Yeah, I mean, it's true. I didn't really, I probably didn't think about it too much or I didn't think that because of what had happened, I didn't I don't remember thinking maybe I shouldn't trust this, but I also that point of the season was working, you know, and I needed to do something. So I was very much open to This could work And also I driven it in the simulator. And honestly, I'd driven it in known that this straight away as well, it was so much more felt so much more comfortable. to a car that I'd driven so many times that for me, if I was like, if this feels as comfortable after three laps, Not even that. it was after three corners I remember just driving it and being like this is just so much more comfortable. So I knew I actually knew I was really excited. I wasn't even nervous to try it. We went to Austria and I was like Let's go. I'm so excited to get to drive, you know, this and it and it But there's something there as well about your courage that I appreciate maybe it's harder for you to acknowledge that, but to put yourself back in that position of trusting other people than doing a bit of a Hll Mary pass, but it sounds like You're still the guy that's going to in the spotlight if it doesn't come off. Yeah. I mean Id probably sound more open to do sort of stuff that's a bit more left field and And and like when trying stuff with with with the car and stuff like this and even now and weekends, you know, doing something like that probably a little bit extreme, but I believe like if I have confidence in it, then Ill It takes courage, th in a world of scrutiny about Where does that come from? I don't know. I actually don't know. But if we can we trace it back like Yeah It's like to go back to child or dad and like what were they doing to give you to nurture that courage, that willingness to put yourself out there I don't know. I think I think maybe even then goes in some ways back to Like I really as a kid people around me that were amazing at networking and sort of you know, getting sponsors and stuff like this, but one thing I had to do when I was Um getting my first sort of sponsors to move into car racing. We set up this five hundred club, which was basically we had these like pamphlets made that was like joining my five hundred club. And it basically was I just go around New Zealand houses, businesses in my area and she be like, canan you, you know five hundred dollars join my five hundred club and I'm working towards starting this form of Fward season, I think it was at the time. Um And so like and I remember I was I was so nervous to do this. likeike I hated I was always really worried about doing it. and so I remember at the time, that was a big deal being like building the courage to go in there and just do that kind of thing I think I've had quite a few experiences in my life like that where it' so funny, isn't it that those little things that seem insignificant Yeah the time. Here we are all these years later They make you a better F one driver. They may be literally exactly. Make sure you stay where you are because in a moment Liam's going to tell us what it was really like sharing a team with Max Verstappen and what makes Max driver that he is. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. What if the real question isn't where you're going, but the adventures you experience along the way? It's time to set your sights higher, on peaks still to be climbed, rivers still to be crossed, and greater dreams to pursue. It's time to embrace the impossible with Defender. A family of vehicles built around capability, durability, tested on some of the most difficult terrain, defnder deffines tough luxury, and I should know, I've driven one for the past three years. I have the Defender one hundred and thirty, but from the compact confidence of the Defender ninety to the versatility of the one hundred ten through to mind, the Defender one hundred and thirty was seating for up to eight there's endless potential. 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He seems to be like that, you know, with everybody And I think Max is somebody that just wants to race cars and loves to talk about cars, loves to talk about racing. And so when I came in, he was just alwaysways very even when I was a reserve actually, like I always noticed that he would alwaysways make an effort to like just acknowledge me and say hi and stuff like this. And when I first was a reserve, this is ages ago. So it was like twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two First couple of times I go to a race as a reserve. And even then You know, knew I was racingF too I you to come and ask me about it As if twoone, you know, what's has a car? what do you know, how has everything feeling I just what The fact that he was asking me about my stuff, I remember at the time was just really cool and he just he's always been very real like that. So And then when I went to Red Bull through all of it, he was very supportive. you know, I won't too much into detail about it, but he was he was very supportive, you know, very supportive of Be I remember seeing a couple comments he made and a couple of social media posts he liked and I know it's very difficult for him because he's still in the team and things, but I sort of felt like He went about as far as he could tellell the world that what happened wasn't right Does that ring about? Yeah, hundred percent. honestly, he was yeah He was, um, I spoke to him during, you know I spoke to a lot of people during that time, but I spoke to him, you know, about how, you know, about it, basically. and was he was very supportive, yeah. And what did that mean to you? I think I just really, you know, appreciated it I think it was it was somebody that um You know, I think I was so excited to Not to go against him, but to be to go, you know, be in a team with him and be able to have the opportunity to basically be in a car that's the same as him and just see everything that he does and have a basasically have a a driving lesson from, you know, from the best in the sport basically. and that was something I was very excited for. and I never went in there You know, like these guys are going in there and talk about trying to, you know and beat him straight away and it's just it's just such a stupid thing to do. I think I think it's more, you know, having somebody like him to learn off is ye was very exciting for me, so Can you give us a moment where you saw him do something and thought He's good. Not even necessarily when you shout a team, but at some point you would have had Yeah. I'll never forget this. this is one that like that Yeah, it was so very first time I went into Formula one was Zanvor And it was wet in FP three and I'd never driven the car out of the track. you know together it was It was a very hard weekend and obviously is when Daniel had his injury. So I basically went out Trying to learn the car, trying to drive. On an intermediate tyie, which I' never driven before And u We're getting through the station and Basically in a formul of one car, especially last year' cars. And like the previous generation, you have to be so confident to drive these cars. Like the commitment you have to have which is also why the Red Bll thing was probably Even more evident for me that it looked really, really tough is because even if you're at ninety nine percent you're slow you know, you're losing so much lapt time, you have to be so committed. so Um It's wet and towards the end of the session I was trying to build up, you know confidence driving this car And we come around the sort of last corner, second last corner, and I'm leading them by and Max comes by me and just power slides this for one car across the curb and I just remember seeing it and just being like I am there's no way I can do that right now. Like I am not I'm so uncomfortable. Yes, it was my first hitish in the car, but I was just like this is there's no way. And I came around the next lap and I remember just being like I'm gonna to send it and I slid out and I spun the car. and I spun like down the hill and like I was just like, o' here. It's just but he has so many moments, you know, like where he just catches a car that is So on the limit. you know, like Barcelona last year he had that save out of the last corner, which is just one of the biggest saves I've ever seen U like little things like that that probably people don't even remember, but like you see it from a driver's perspective, you go, that is That is imprressive. and then is it's Bigg honestly the biggest all rnder though is the way he races m, which I've literally personally had experience with now. U I had it with him in Miami a couple of race a couple of races ago. in the in the rice we just is just Everybody has a wise of ricing, but he's's he's different to rice against. It's eas yeah sort of mindset of just Yeah, the back out of you crash is just how in every situation, we were racing for probably P ten. what do you see that's like, wow, that's different. Uh justust the commitment level, I think of and also just putting giving he almost just gives you the option of You either stay there and we crash together or Cing by kind of things so There's an interesting sort of mental bit of gymnastics for you as well, which is where you can have huge respect for someone like that. But also your job is to believe that you can be that guy, you can be a full time world champion, you can be a seven time worldld Champion,? When you see someone driving like that Oh, is it daunting or is it inspiring? U it's It's more it's more inspiring because at the end of the day as, you know, maybe arrogant as this comes across We all have that in a belief, you know, we all believe that we can do We can obviously, we can win U so T me, it's like his I guess he's how many years in Formul one now I think if I was to think about myself, if I had that much time in Ful one, I'd probably be much better all rounded, you know dri than I am now, so Um I think compare Myself like like that Um I do try and I do try and raise him in these situations So every time I get like in Miami, we basically came together, we touched, you know, crashed into each other a little bit and I do try and raerise him in these situations because In general, I always try not to back out anyway. like there's not somebody I wouldd really do that with and I'd try race everybody Sort of the same and not Look at somebody different, but It's it is always different with Max Yeah to be. But I also think as a driver, There's moments where you have to decide to let to like lay the go I think in Canada George was just laying a gauntet down there and being like, No, this is like, yeah, this isn't happening now. Yeah. we We're going to erace each other if do you know what I mean? And I think there's a moment of where you have to decide that in your career, like Maxon Lewis, twenty twenty one, the first part of the year Max was literally chest Every time they were next to each other, he would just doore them. you know, Lewis would get pushed off. Low was it back out And he was racing smart. There's a point where you can't race smart anymore because the other guy just knows that every single time you're going to lift and Basically They get to silverstone And you know, he didn't lif And then that's what happens basically. So It's exactly that. I think yeah. theres there's situations where there's being a smart driver and I feel like this year, I'm trying to do more of that as well compared to some of the you know, incidents I had last year orr just the amount of incidents I'd say where I was just not getting result out of a weekend and I think this year trying to be a smarter driver, but also keeping that you can't You can't let people walk all over you. And do you watch back full races? No Maybe maybe that's a bad thing you know,aybe's something I can do better, but I Yeah, I don't. But I because I always basically I try not just watch I watch something if I want to learn from something if something happened in particular I'm like okay I want to re Go over this that I will which we do a lot. you know, we spend so much time looking at on booards and stuff like this, but to watch just to watch a rice Normally why? whether it's good or bad, because I feel like there's be big biased if I was just watching the good stuff. Well, I think sometimes like people think if you lean more into something then you could be better at it. But there's also an argument and we've spoke actually about this over the last hour or so, like Sometimes not so much of that is good. And I know that like Music' iss important to you. Yeah, playing the guitar is important to you. I'm really interested in what that other than just being somethingone that you enjoy what that actually does for you. That's something that is I've realized in the last probably a couple of years, especially the last year That the stuff I do that I enjoy outside of the car is so important so. I feel and how I approach a weekend and how my mindset is during the weekends. and even on the weekend, you know, just At the end of the day, you know, from eight AM s seven or eight PM So you're just all you're working and talking and thinking about is Formula one, making the car better, you know, the result. that when you go back to the hotel Even then I just switch off and basically will do something that is not related to basically I don't even think about if one until the next morning, honestly. and then away from races as well. So music's a big part of it. Like what does it do for you? Just it's just it's just a way to switch off. It's relaxing. it's It's just very peaceful, I guess S somethinghing I just enjoy doing as well And when you play, do you play to get better or do you play just for the pleasure of it? Play for the pleasure of it because I grew up playing to get Bter. I Stied exams when I was a kid G' grateful for it now becausecause it gave me the base to sort of be able to play At the time, I didn't enjoy it. L it was really it was so intense that I was just b every time I picked up a guitar, I was studying an exam book trying to study for this exam and I stopped playing because of it because I was like, I just can't do this anymore And then I stopped for like five or six years and then picked it back up again and since then I've only played stuff that I want to play and that I want to do That that full circle moment though, like when we started talking about Yeah you drive and you drive as a kid for the pleasure of it. Yeah Yeah say best. Do I play better? I don't know. and that's I don't know if I play any better because of it, but it is important to. I mean, for sure it's important to enjoy what you do and try and get the enjoyment out of it, but it is like You know We have a good result and it's It really doesn't. mayaybe for me it's because I haven't achieved the goal I set out to do. So these these feel like maybe steps along the way, have a P seven a P five, whatever it is. you know qualify third last year. Those are ' more feel at moments along the way And they really don't last long. They last hour. I love the simplicity of just playing the guitar gives you a break from the mad circus Yeah. It is F forormula one, I think maybe that's part of it. I have one that goes to s every single hotel I stay in and every single dry room at the track, basically I have a guitar in there so I can just pick it up and play it. Youave you ever played before a race one hundred percent. I mean, I than those guys have to sit and listen to me playing in the in the was was your pre race sock June Well, if a warm up, I'll listen to music and get much more ammed up, but for in between sessions I'll just play it's mainly Probably mainly country music is quite easy to play, some are like even older. Before we go to our quick five questions, I love this idea of the guitar because I think it preserves a bit of who you are as a person We've had a phanal anser on the show And we asked him to cost the fula one personal relationships. you know, he's now a father at the time he wasn't and he said, you know, I had to delay my life for Formula One Landon Norris U use the word un lonely Nica Rosberg was the most recent episode that went out just a few days before we record this and he talks about the mental cost of the sport Whether it is relationships or whether it is your own mental clarity like what What is the cost for you of this life? sounds real it sounds kind of quite sad, but it's probably just happiness, I think been so It's probably just happiness, you know, like I think People probably think you're a lot happier because of you know, the position I'm in and like I said, don't get me wrong it's not that I'm I don't understand how lucky I am to be here, but because of that thing that we're so focused and driven towards. I feel like I'm not happy until I do it until I achieve it So for me, it's probably just overall happiness. We get I have happy moments for short, you know, like it's not that I'm not happy all the time, it's just it's yeah Overall in life, Yeah, at the moment and go match where we started E after this like really interesting, wide ranging conversation, do you really still think that if Be you're not you're not in control, right? But you can determine your habits But you can't determine your dream. Your dream is to be for a worldld Champion That doesn't control the quality of the car, the quality of the opposition. whether you're on form or not, whether it rains on a day when You know, we've seen worldld titles get one and lost I think it's totally out of control of your driver. Yeah You can't put your happiness in the hands of somethingone that you don't control, which is becoming a forormulal worldor Champion Yeah I guess I've I just I don't really I don't think I can really look at it like that, right? I think I can't really afford to look at it like that. think until it either does or doesn't happen, I won't know You know, I think until that happens This is how sort of, I feel like I'll always feel ass how I've always felt since I was young at least So you just have to be aware of the cost and happy to pay the price You I totally am. Yeah Obviously youve spent so much time around these elite sports individuals and teams It's funny to know whether to fully commit and leave no margin for error. is actually the fastest and best way to do it or whether to have some freedom and enjoyment is the best way to do it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, becausecause it's always like, oh, the more you enjoy it, the better you perform.' like the classic. Yeah, but no one allows themselves. It's impossible. Well, it's not impossible. I think you have to reach a certain point. someomeone like Lewis or Even Max could probably because they've achieved. you know, what they set out to do. But when you haven't, I don't think No matter how good you are training your mind or thinking about stuff, I don't think you can do that. I don't think you can convince yourself to just purely enjoy something for me and not think about Just the amount, like I said, the amount of s the amount of stuff behind us, the importance of it I definitely try, but there's always pressure. there's always So how so you say you try, give us some examples of how you because it sounds quite draining that if you're thinking about that sacrifice of others So how do you sort of try and square that paradox. I think I mean, gratitude is a big part of it. So being grateful for like where for me where I came from, obviously I'm very likeucky you very fortunate to be in this position. And from New Zealand, it's really It's really hard, so, um You know, I have Like my best mate is somebody that is Also a racing driver, we gre up racing each other but he just hasn't been as fortunate as I have. And so I spend a lot of time with him, but he's somebody that constantly reminds me that. Um, you know, he's extremely there's absolutely zero jealousy from him, which, you know, is honestly I just love that about him But yeah, to be for me like knowing that he just didn't get the same opportunities, but I did. Yeah. I have to be I just have to be grateful because It's so easy to just get used to what you're doing and like, I'll complain about the smallest thing and then be like Wait a second. St all pretty sick, you know, like to be doing this. See, that conversation about with you may reminds us of the research that have you seen about like the silver medal mindset There's research that says, like Silver medalists in Olympic Games often report they're unhapper than bronze medalists because one hundred percent becausecause silver medalists look up and go, I could have won gold whereereas bronzeedalists go For look force In't heard him, ye. Yeah. so at least I'm there. Yeah So so makeakes sense. Seconds the worst thing ever, yeah like there's nothing and I've come sicken so many times in my career which just sucks. but Yeah, sick and sucks. There's nothing worse than that, I think. then how do you keep So lots of people talk about gratitude, but What do you do to remind yourself to be grateful For me, it's my childhood. I just think that's a being being young. So honestly like that' the easiest way for me is to go, okay, you know Eight year old Liam you know, wanting to be a formmeral one driver. Obviously love to be like as I remember even thinking if I could just get to if three that that would be like that would feel amazing. like what would it be like Es Yeah. you' just every every step you take it just it becomes the new normal and then you're just always looking at the next thing. And even getting the Formula onene, likeike when I was close for a long time, it was if I could just Be a formula one driver and then the second you're in It's just straight away All right results now. now I got to perform getet a top ten, you got to do more G to score more points, get a top five. U you're just constantly chasing the next thing and I think that until We all have this goal of winning in my head at least and maybe this is from past experience it won't be like this, but in my head. The goal is to win once you achieve that, mayaybe that mindset changes, but until then. you talk about a world Championship? Yeah So you don't think that you could rest or be happy until you're a world champion. Not completely no. likeike I wouldn't feel like I' fully succeeded no. So We John Wilson one of the greatest rugby players of all time in our podcasts What you were you bor two thousand two. Yeah, okay, so you probably don't remember this because you were one year old but, um We won the Rugby Cup in two thousand three. We're still dining out on it, right? in this country right Pul came to Jhn left foot drop goal, the last moment of the game, like nothing happened afterwards. you ran around crazy How don' you think he told us he was happy for Honestly I think he was happy that evening, maybe Really? thirirty seconds no way And that's the winning the World Cup. because here's the challenge for you, right You might tell yourself that when I win a world title I'll be happy But there's a very strong possibility the minute do it, you go, o Now I need to show the world that I wasn't a one title wnder. Yeah So can I do it again? Oh, I've done it twice, shit, can I catch Max Can I catch Louis? Can I catch Michael now? This is A really lovely place to start this conversation Got to find the joy in this process because let's imagine you never win a worldld title, right you win How many races did Mark Weber win nine nine races or David Card thirteen races? G great drivers never won the Wld title can't not be happy They drove in Formula O for years and one races like that's fucking amazing achievement. But I don't know if they are Yeah, but dont I don't know. Are they I feel like they Because that's like the one percent of the one percent You are the one percent of the one percent of the one percent. I know but you don't think of it like that. You don't think I mean, it's important to That's where the gratitude comes in and when when you're struggling with stuff and you're thinking, this is Shit Like this is frustrating Yeah, I think like that's that's where It's important to go, okay, I I'man a very incredible position. I think also anybody that has done anything, anybody has achieved any of their goals or like has gone that extreme, they all have that same mindset which is why they're still doing it why guys like Max is still racing It one Yeah four. So wait, how many is Max one? Yeah for four. So It's you're just constantly chasing. And we've struggled with this question on this show so often because we've had people on like Rio Ferdinand Man United Defender finished his career, came on the show and said, never enjoyed it I didn't allow myself to enjoy it becauseuse it was all about the next win Yeah Now There's a strong argument The reason he had so much success was because he never enjoyed it And if you were enjoying it, maybe you don't get the success and it's it's what you want to wear that then if you're enjoy it, what' the? don Yeah, I don't know. The enjoyment part is an interesting one because that's the thing we're always actually trying to the most common advice is just go ahead and enjoy it You'll drive at your best if you just got and enjoy it. And I think honestly, I think back to some of some of my bitter performances, like there's a race where I got my rebel contract as a kid, was just this race where I basically When I went around the out I did a big overtake in the wet for for a pass and then won this race in New Zealand in the toota racing series Um, and As a kid, the Toyota racing series in New Zealand was like Formula one. Like that was like the and I always wanted to race in it. and so Every year I would watch it, but I was never old enough and I was I mean, I stillll in go carts for obviously a long time, but then When I finally got to drive in it, it was it was honestly for me, it was like getting the driving for one. And I remember being so excited and I went into the first weekend and there was no expectation on performance. I was racing U Armstrong, Marcus Armstrong who'd come off if IF three that year Um F he was driving with Freay at the time Lucas Hauer was doing it. He was arible driver. and I meanember seeing his ribble helmet in the like in the he's in the same team as me and I was just like Rble driver, like it was so cool and That weekend I just Honestly, I was just so excited to race in it And gave one of the best performances ever and I was really just enjoying it. D didn't really know what I was doing to be honest. it was pure free driving without any and then came out of the weekend had won you know leading the championship, which was just not even what I'd really thought about or was considered possible Um And then from then on it became so much more intense. And you could also argue that then I probably made more mistakes and it was actually probably not as like my best performance was round one by far. So, I wonder whether that tallies to when you got the chance to replace Daniel in Formula One for those few races And everyone was like Liam's amazing. He's come straight in with zero prep. Maybe you had that freedom then as well? I think more so, yes than when you were actually, yeah, you're probably right So if you think of there's three things you've said there that if you break it down, so What is it? Expectation two is ility And then three is the consequences of success or failure. Which of those three do you struggle most with Probably the failure, I would say For me, I really think about How much it taken to get here and how many people I would let down? I think if I didn't like it's my dream, obviously But I I know how many there's just so many people that have that have given in my in my sort of situation U There's really an incredible amount of people that have like made this all happen and that are right there on this journey with me And then I come from a small country as well. so I feel like I feel like the whole of New Zealand is also there. So I think it's the for me, it's, I don't want to lit. Sided people down and myself as well Sh we finished with some quick fire questions? Yeah, let. What would a ten year old Liam say to you today, do you think You're pretty cool man Probably something like that like u What's it like driving a form one car whichich is crazy becausecause that's the question I hate the most What I get This is the mostotion genereric question, What's it like driving a for one car? And I think that's what I would ask myself as a ten year old kid. Yeah What would you say to that ten year old kid really what my dad was telling me is just thats for me been the most important thing that if you believe in something and you work hard enough for it that You can honestly achieve anything you want. What would you say to your parents and your family that you may have already told them, but you can never say it too often? Thank you. Oh, it's just yeah, it's Thank you for Like I feel like I'll never be able to li almost repay the amount of sacrifice that and it's not just about just money, you know, it's not just You know might We found that my dad, my parents found this card recently, lesss like a year ago. that my brother had wridden my dad. My brother's two years younger than me We found this card that he'd written when he was like five years old was six years old and the card was like, dear Dad If I like racing, will you spend more time with me like Liam And like that, like honestly, like for my yeah, my siblings and family that have just given up so much, like time with my dad, time with and never going on holiday, never doing anything just always that my God, that's actually like That does actually get you, you know? Yeah. I have an amazing family, so. When you saw that, what did you say to your brother just sorry, man. you know, he now looks at it and laughs and thinks it's funny and stuff like that. But I just I think back to every single weekend being away. So Next question. We're all gonna be cryinguck. All right. Yeah. N I'm out of water anyway, so's. Oh fuck. Yeah. What are the three non negotiable behaviourors that you and everyone around you in your inner circle has to buy into workor eth think is Gyss gott to be number one. Belief. It's all stuff we' talked about, but belief, like self belief Um, you know, determination all comes into it. I think How did I? I don't know what num three is We' let you have two of them. What's the greatest advice you've ever received It's honestly, it's again, it's just it's all the same. It's linked back. it's what my it's what my parents and my dad told me when I was young just if you genuinely believe And something if you want to do this and you believe in it and you work hard enough, you can like it doesn't matter what anybody says that you can You can do it biggest streth I find it really hard to say stuff that I feel like I'm really good at But it's it'd be something like outside of you, driving, it's just probably just there resilience. from my childhood, you know, from being young And also from what's happened to you in the last couple of years. Yeah Yeahah, that's probably been quite impactful as well. Yes What's your greatrazest sweetness To be simple And this has been since I was young as well. and it's something I worked on a lot, but it's just a simple like If you look at qualifying versus racing Like I've always been a racer And like I think that's a strength as well, you know that comes and ties into that. like I've raced my way to like to do well. as a kid, all my national titles, you know, that I won I'd qualify like eleventh or tenth or you know and just race my way through in the heats. and qualifying has always been something that has been not as strong as a race and therefore I would say is not necessarily weak, but it's that's my I'd want to make that. That' good. so And after everything that's happened to you, what does high performance mean to you now I think just my entire life is sort of has been based on it, you know, it's been everything we do is working towards you know, better at this one thing that we're trying to do. So there's so there's so many things that we obviously we try and work on and stuff like that, but I think it's just My whole life has been focused on on being the, you know being high performance, being trying to reach the highest level of My sport and I think That's what also drove me towards Formul I One as a kid was Not necessarily that. It's for one to one, but It's the pinnacle. It's the high level, you know, as a kid if you ask if you didn't know anything, you said what's the best what's the highest level of racing? It's for one. That's the that's the top level. best drivers, best cars, fastest. and As a kid I was very competitive, I am very competitive and I just wanted to be that best at whatever I was doing, and I think that's what drove me towards Fal one was just said it's the highest level. A you're there Nearly Mar me that There you go. Mate, thank you so much for that conversation, Sro Damiian, Jay. Oh, I don't know how I feel about that conversation. Amazing vulnerability. Um person, I think wow. like if that was my son I'd be so proud of him Aolute. But when you ask someone what's the price of doing this and they say their happiness Oh my goodness, like We can't skir over that. and I think We can talk about it in the context of Liam, but we can also talk about it in the context of So many pererformers. If you're trading your happiness for the thing you want to achieve Are you a high performer that's million dollar question into it and I think it's a theme we've just seen so often, you know from these people that have traded a lifetime to go after one particular goal or target and then get it and realize It maybe wasn't everything that they thought it was before they did it, but you almost have to go through it to experience it. I remember reading Matthew Perry, the guy from Friends, said that he said if I could give one gift to the world, it would be teaching them that Being rich, being famous, being stored by so many people does not solve your problems, but nobody believes it until like everybody still queues up to sort of have all those things wasisted upon them We're looking at it from the perspective of two men that are nearly twentyenty five years older than Liam and How Yeah, I know, Yeahah, but I think sometimes We can look at it and go, honestly, don't trade those moments of happiness for it You need to experience it yourself to understand it because otherwise it feels like selling yourself short, the sacrifices he recognizes his family had made. You know, I'm letting them down. he's attaching lots of really quite powerful emotive u way to that believe that he has to achieve this f. Do you fully understand it, though, by the way? Absolutely. I fully understand why he doesn't allow himself to enjoy this because if he allows himself to enjoy this, having had a few good points finishes in F one The fear is or that removes the fire to become the world Champion. But I think You know, he said a couple of times, didn't? He said I said As askking about if one drivers said, we're as happy as you think Like this is obviously a recurring sce. And I wonder whether actually that's that should be more of our job. We should lean more into this with people. Maybe we do it enough already. I don't know But like trying to change what people think high performance is. There's so many shows and so many messages out there optimization and finding an edge and pushing yourself to the limit and sacrificing everything for the achievement Maybe we need to lean further towards The fact that there is no joy at the end of that life so much like performative bullshit that gets on the nerves about people telling you that you've got to be sacrifice everything, you can't have fun, you've got to focus relentlessly. And I think What Liam's giving us is that paradox because he's saying when he plays, when he was a kid and he was doing it just for the pleasure of it That was when he was liberated and that was actually when he was at his best. and yet he's in a world that demands he has to put on this image this mask being serious and being relentless and yet that inhibits his performance. So How he finds that sweet spot of playing for the love of it and actually still wanting to win going love watching his story over the years