Final Advice on Reaching Potential

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see M and Damen's favorite episodes from the last six years of High performance the hell back into that car coming Formula One world champion Nico Rosberg is stunn, motor racing. I've decided to end my Formula One career for you were reat buddies when we were growing up. We were best friends when were kids yeah. There's no relationship. It's proper war. It's like war. This guy is like God. whenever he walks into a room, Michael Schua. He lives and breathes destroying his teammate mentally. Michael, stop these rubbish games Engineer says to me on the radio, You now have to pass steppen. othertherwise you risk losing the world Championship. What m So scared or marginal gains. holds my buyser open. Push into this discomfort. I'm like a kid. This is probably the one moment where it's best not to go into the exact details Nia, welcome to High Performance. Great to be here and thanks for making your way all the way to Monaco. It's almost ten years since you were the guy driving a forormula O one car around this track I really want to explore the last ten years for you Inn't that time Have you come to the realization that when you left F one, you were running towards something or you are running away from something U both, I was running towards my dream, which which started as a very young child watching my father race he was at the time driving in the European touring car championship. and it was incredible. And that's where the dream started for me that I would also want to be a professional race car driver. My father was managing Mika Hackinan's career McCagan became a two time world champion. So I was watching that very closely And all that together was, okay, I wish I could be that one day myself But it seemed impossible because those guys were like gladiators, like it's like impossible to get there myself. But that's where the dream started. So I was running towards that dream then also once once I did get there The further I got along, it's also running away from failure and failing. So that was like one of the big driving forces was like trying to do everything I could to avoid failure U and yeah to win But even in that twenty sixteen season where you became the world champion Do you still have that feeling that you were running away from failure even when you'd become the best in the world That's where it's the most pronounced Yeah because you're at the close to the top of Everest And almost anything you do is a step back down, which is failure So that's where it actually gets the most intense And and the most scary in a way. No know that it's proper scary too to fail when when you're all the way up there Let's go to the moment then that you cross the line in Aber Abbey. And then you do know You are the world champion. Yeah and all those fears and all those doubts You can finally put to bed Is that the reality of what happened in your head crossing the line first of all, there was just relief. There was no joy. There was no no happiness or anything. It was just Oh my God relief Reliefid you expect that or did it feel different to how you thought it would feel? Relief And me saying, that's it, I'm done. I've done it. How how quickly did you decide on the line on the line? No. Yeah, I'm done. Yeah U this was this was like when you're watching at home where you're watching the television, you know it looks like the easiest thing in the world to drive that little race car, drive it in circles. fromr time to time win the race But when you're in it and you're in that life, it's like super, super hard It It's very It's very intense this thing. so whichich all I think everybody who's in a high performance job We'll know this feeling, but it gets exacerbated even more When you're in the public eye and there's hundreds of millions of people following you live, you're measured by tenths of a second. Every is on a knife's edge because driving these race cars is so incredibly hard Now some people listening might say, oh, yada, yada, yada you're earning the top guys now fifty million a year, justust shut up and drive But you as a human, you just, you know you're in your little bubble and everybody has their own struggles then. and even though you're earning fifty million a year, or the best are now, then the struggles are still real in that moment. Even a Lewis Hamilton, ear tons of money at Ferrari If you ask him about last year, how horrible was it fromrom a scale from one to ten, he'll give you a ten Um his young te him coming to a new team the whole of Italy slowly but surely turning against him because he's not delivering his young teammate beating him, although he's earning, although Louis is earning much more money Um It's that's a horrible situation to be in. So I'm pretty sure without speaking to him, I don't know But just looking from the outside, I think it would be pretty it would have been a pretty horrible situation and there would not have been much fun at all. Fun would have been probably a one out of ten Um, So it is it is you're on the edge, you know, and It's intense. Right. So this is what I'm interested in this in this period, we were sharing a team with Lewis Did you have to stop being the real Nika Rosberg? Oh, totally yeah. because the real Nicon at Rosberg is way too nice So what were you doing? Give us an example. Yeah I had to push and be Be tougher sometometimes, even though it didn't come naturally to me. O again you have the same example with Lando Lando, generally, people will say he's just too nice wheel two wheel battle He he has always lost against Max in the time when they in the last years Every whe to whel battle against Max he lost out Um because what landowner needs to do once is just hold his ground causeed a crash. Yeah That will send a message to Max. Oh He's changing. He's becoming more ferocious. Maybe I need to calm it down a bit next time against him because otherwise we're going to crash And you just have to do that. So did you do that? Well, we crashed, right? You did Barcelona twenty sixteen. Yeah. that's just me consonsciously saying I have to Um be more firm. I have to not yield. like my naturally mean I would yield. Um ye like I did so often before that and I had to push myself hard And it was part of my visualization and rep repetitions that I was doing in meditation. I was working very hard on that, visualizing myself Um not yielding, you know, and being firm in my position. That was a strong part of my visualization. And even I was meditating with posture. you know, It is like you meditate with a posture of like strength, you know? And it just it's all these details that add up. And then in the heat of the moment preparation helps to hold your ground and not yield. And unfortunately, then of course, it led to quite a few crashes. Yeah And unfortunately because Lewis is such a genius Most of the time it was more my fault than his fault Are you actually glad? Itid't matter. Look It was still for me. I had to do that. But it sent a message to him. I had to do that because it sent a message to him I think it So him back a little bit. o something's changing here with Nico He's not the Mr. Nice guy anymore Um And that was a very important ingredient to then having a chance to actually beat him one day I don't know whether you've spoken about this before So when the big incident happened in Barcelona Did Mercedes come to you both and say You findi it First of all, there was a There was the, you know, Toto throwing the headset on the table, corct destroying the headset There was at that moment without the headset though. Oh really there was no headset at his hand. What he just smashed his hand? Noob butbody came in hard D he came in and he was like, what are you guys doing out there Because Red Bull, we handed the win to Red Bull. off course, that's the worst thing you can do, you know, hand the win to the fierce enemy Red Bull. That's the most horrible thing. So Toto was not happy with that And but did he say you to are fired until you come back and apologize It never came to that fired thing, No. But I know he actually had internal discussions. Yeah with big boss, with Dita etetcher. aboutbout that? About firing you both. About taking that step as a I don't think it was probably suspending or something Would it been a first step for a race? Yeah, somethingomet like that Um So there was there was actually that conversation behind closed doors. It never came to us That's pretty crazy hh. And How how did you feel when you heard that's what they did? I didn'tar it at the time Um they what Toto did was he put a contract on the table um that we had to sign and it was fifty, fifty of the damage I had to pay myself. and it didn't matter whose fault it was. So even if it was ninety percent Lewis' fault I had to to pay fifty fifty of the actual damage we caused. So One of the crashes, I had to pay three hundred sixty thousand dollars was what I had to pay So that definitely calmed us down. That was expensive. L that was not really a fun exercise Um, so one crash was three hundred sixty thousand dollars. That was That was expensed. So that was one thing you did contontract on the table One thing that they could have done better, the most important thing is, again, a lot of communicating preparing for every possible scenario as best you can And the team also could have done, but it's hard to predict all these things. You know, you can't predict that there's going to be such wheel to wheel incidents with teammates. Yeah. Yeah. But they could have, u done more effort really laying out exactly who'se fault it is in what in what different situation And we did a good job then in doing more and more of that. So it was really like really all the way to the details like if your tire is there, then it's the inside car his corner. but if you're blah. So we really went to the extent of every single d adding so much more to think about. Really you have to. You have to be because at least you have guidelines that you can then refer to afterwards Be if you have a crash and it's a big big big fight behind those doors because no one really knows who's at fault. Um, then it it really becomes difficult Be then then people take sides and you feel unfairly treated And that's when it all spirals out of control completely still to come. Nica tells us what it was really like sharing teams with Lewis Hamilton And what was your relationship like with Lewis in this period? Were you talking no relationship? No, there's no relationship. It's proper war. It's like war Chip Noot, don't talk about it. donon't talk. Really But you were greatreat buddies when you were growing up. Yes, but when you fight for a world championship, you will always compromise the friendship for getting the worldor Championship Unfortunately It's just so, it's such a big dream Um, that, uh that you'll just, u Yeah if you choose you will choose the worldor Championship over that friendship, It's not like we werere best friends at the time anyway, we were best friends when we were kids, yeah. But then we kind of anyways drifted apart during our careers we got on well, but we're not best friends anymore. And then between getting on well or winning a worldorld Championship, you'll choose winning the worldorld Championship. And to win a world championship, you need to exploit the grreay areas all the time you need to end When wheel to wheel races, you cannot just be the nice guy. You need to push into the gray area hold your ground because that's the other guy's gonna do it too So you've got to go there. You're almost living together. You have engineering meetings together, you're in the garage together, you're at media. As you can imagine, it's maybe not the most comfortable environment. So would you just not talk No talk But how would prepare for that Be you're not. That's not you, though Yeah, that's not you. You let me know. So what would you do before you were walking into what could be a contentious meeting How would you prepare to be able to be I'm not good at that. That's the problem. I was not good at that And I didn't have anybody to help me. because my dad was not there at the track because we agreed that it was better because I put a lot of more pressure on my shoulders when my dad was there because it's so important for me to I want him to be proud and I want to impress him I want I need his recognition So when he was there, I always got a little bit extra pressure and we kind of realized that. and so that's why he then stayed back and didn't come so much to races anymore, which is great. Yeah. so it's not never really a strength of mind to know exactly what the right thing to say. The right version of the truth, you know, remember? Lando can say, Perfect lap or I messed up turn ten, bothoth is the truth.. and I was not good at that. And Lewis was very, very good at that. like in meetings Sing the right thing. Um so that and that's a it's a battle off the track. it's a huge battle because it's, do you have the team on your side or not? And if you say the right thing U then you got the team on your side. if you said you feel the team was on his side No was it was divided. ome some people were Camp Lewis and some people were my side which was important and helpful, of course. But but it remains tough when you have when you're up against the people who are at camp Lewis One of the things that I felt most difficult about was Patty because Patty won Patty Low was our team principal, I think was called that time He won the championship with Louewis at McLaren. So they had an existing very deep relationship. I generally felt that Baddy wouldood If in doubt He would be on Lewis's side Um That was one of the one of for me personally, subjectively, Yeahah maybe's you don't know if it's true or not but subjectly it felt like one of the most difficult things for me to to deal with because Patty was then most of the time the one discussing the first person to discuss any incidents with us was him before any other senior people like Toto or Nki got involved, we would do a lot of the incidents with him first. And that generally was was difficult for me. It felt different. Yeah. By the way, I'm fascinated what Nickki Lauder was like in a situation like this. How was Nki Lauda said said right Tomorrow morning, Monday, I went both of you at my house in Iibita We are going to make a discussion He was the mediator He did He did a great job with mediating Did he go Be his what he did as a mediator was He pushed us each to take ownership least a little bit of what happened.. So to get to a point where you say, okay, yes, that I actually could have done better. Yes, I understand That was part of what caused our Fresh Whereas going into the conversation with Niki, it's hundred percent, the other guysy's fall And then at the end of the conversation is, okay, yes, I understand part, maybe yes, I could have done better and that is my fault actually And then Louis the same And so that went first. That's the sorry. Who conceded first No, you don't go together. It's one by one. Okay. so he goes into the house first Comes out, I go to st And you're both outside not talking to each other. It's like naughty school kids. headmaster. And then most of the time it would be though putting us together, but just getting us to a point where we are calmed because when we accept that we actually had part of the blame And then sometimes it's also then sitting us together and and, um getting to a point where kind of make a little bit of progress. So just take a bit of the tension out, you know, the air out of the Many people are still intrigued by the relationship with you and Lewis. Have you spoken since reconciled? had this kind of discussion between We're neutral now The craziest thing was that we were neighbors in the same building, you know, so I moved out since I moved out, but we were neighbors. so we saw each other quite a lot quite a bit So we're just neutral. Have you ever spoken about twenty sixteen? No. We took a moment a very personal moment when I made my decision, so we had that Um I think we also have very different lives and interests. So there's no We wouldn't be best friends anyways with the different lives that we have and So so it' just neutral and it's fine. It's okay. bad things happen. so you can't really you can't fix that so easily either. U And then who's gonna to say sorry first Yeah. I don't know Um, yeah, so so that's it. so it's mutual And I'm amazed that he's still driving. It's crazy. I'm out since ten years. And it's not like we were young at the time, like Yeah And he's still going. still going And it's incredible how he has managed to build his life with such stability as well. too be able to have such longevity in a career, no scandals performing at such a high level. It's not only you don't it's not only about being a great race car driver. You know, you need to buildu a life around that and not have scandals, not have lookook at there's so many there's infinite examples and Lu is an incredible job to build a solid life to be able to perform at such a high level for such a long time and now taking on another huge challenge now at Ferrari and a huge struggle U it's getting better now because with these new reggs, he's performing much better than it was last year. But still, he's up against Charle Leclerire, who's like at the peak of his ability and he's one of the greatest drivers of this generation U so it's going to be difficult, you know, but it's great to see him taking on the challenge and Um Would you like to see him become an eight time worldorld champion? Yeah, of course, I would. And he would deserve it. deserve it and it would be great to see him keep progressing as he has into this year And and I think you'll win a race at least this year together the championship, I think it's not the car is not good enough and and his level is not quite there yet Hopefully can still improve through the season but it would be inspiring for all us men in our forties to see a worldld champion Is he forty seven forty one. Amazing. And what was hardest for you? was it Season one where you first come into F one as the son of a Formul onene worldld champion Was it when you get put into a Mercedes as a German driver alongside The great Michael Schumacher Was it when you finally had the opportunity to win the World title up against Louewis Hamilton in twenty sixteen and that got really, really u ret contentious Or was it all at hard? No no, so the hardest is very easy. It's season one. Um, when you come in as a twenty year old. and as I said before, I'm not the super confident person. So I come in more worried, am I good enough to be in this sport with the gladiators? You know, onn the grid next to Michael Schumacher, my God, I felt completely like a fish out of water, like completely out of place. Like what am I doing here? This guy is like the greatest, you know and I'm on the grid next to doesn't add up. U so that that is and then I also got into a situation where I had a really bad car. team full of Feeling wise army generals who had no idea what empathy meant u so it was just like Um, so the team being full of army generals. Is what the car being a disaster and breaking down all the time? pllus me personality wise being on the less on the younger side, less confident side than some others maybe Um And so it's a really difficult situation to get into because you also know as a young driver, look at Kimy Aonlli last year You only really have one shot them If you fail in the first year and you get kicked out, it's ninety five percent that your career in F one is done And that's what Kimy Aonelli was going through last year He was really so close to being fifty fifty whether the team retains them or kicks them out It was literally, I mean, it was very close without knowing it, just looking from the outside It was really touch and go because it was just so hard to see, is he really going to be able to turn this around? and actually perform in a good enough way to be worthy of staying in F one and with Mercedes. because at times in the season, you know, it was so bad what he was doing mistakes and being slow and this and that, you know, is really struggles And so as a young driver, you have that that you know that chances now that's maybe it So when I was then with Williams and car was breaking down I was crashing, making mistakes and less and whatever That's a wow, That's a tough tough situation to be in Um And and so there was that And let me give you an example of the Army general U So So two examples. One is Patrick He. so I was it was Melbourne qualifying and Q one, I was sixteenth So just about or fifteen just made the cut like but almost last comes to the car from the side, pullose my visor open and says to me And he's shouting in an arrmy general like because it's quite loud. So it's really powerful shout If you keep driving like that, you're going to put us out of business. What I'm like a kid just startorry hold on in was Melbourne, not Melbourne? Yeah. So this was two thousand seven. First race is two thousand seven. Okay it's not quite the right fit, but more or less it fits the story. So two thousand seven So it's the first race of my second year. Yeah. If you keep driving like that, you're going to put us out of business, shouting, huh? And to my eyes, I'm studying the data, like I'm in my most high focused moment of studying the data to try and make progress He interrupts me, comes to the car. And this guy is the legend,? Yeah. He was my dad's boss. So they won the worldor Championship with my dad twenty four years before that G guy's a lege And he says, in the middle of qualifying That's not a lot of that's not very I think that he thought that was the most helpful thing that he could do in that situation. Well, I was sick right after that, so maybe And it was horrible, but maybe he was right. I don't know. it seem like the right thing to do. Anyways. and then the other story This was year one then Hwenim, maybe ninth race of the season. I after the start messed up the start. I was last. And running lasts in turn ten of the first lap I spun out on my own and crashed So that's pretty bad. Yeah. And so then at six o'clock in the evening, I'm in my car, my way home, get a phone call Trum Sam Michael, who is the deputy boss And he says to me, Nico W it Frank Williams? I think it was Sic. Sam Michael, you were useless to us this weekend. So he called me to tell me that you were useless to us this weekend. That's the words Comeing guys instead of like, Hey, what can we do to you know, to to, you know, don't worry first year these things happen and hey it's important And just to learn from every mistake and and make and grow, you know, through mistakes that we grow. So you got to it's normal. You got to get through this and and look, you've done this in this so well. So let's just build on that and You were useless to us this week That's like that's hard. So that's what I'm saying's team of army generals. Yeah. We can smile in some ways about that now No, I still can't smile about that. No. You can I can smile about anything that happened in my d the ending was so beautiful. Yeah I can smile about anything. But whenatever was thrown at me, I don't care in that moment. horrible. I'm like destroyed. and and he calls me on purpose to tell me to tell me this like you're useless because becausecause a Patrick head They had their greatest success with drivers like my dad. or or drivers like Alan Jones, who my dad had a fire in his race car in Brazil, jumped out of the car and Patrick head runs towards him and screams at him the hell back into that car. And my dad, my mouache is on fire and they have a shouting match like that And then my dad gets back in the car and finished a second. So that's how they that's how they kind of grew up in the sport with these macho drivers. Allan Jones was the same. You had to you had to shout at him and probably threaten to punch him to get him going to get him fired up and actually perform well. So I think that's how they got into the into the sport and that was just the way they were. so u So when you look back to joining Williams and being led by army generals I they listen to me. Hopefully they do. Michael apologized. He wrote me a Whatspp three years ago. he's been reflecting I said, I'm so sorry, I think I was a bit tough with you. But I think also that was the team led by Frank Williams. and he came as well from that era It was the same. T was the culture? the same thing. Army Genal. Yeah. Empathy did not exist Did empathy exist fromr Michael Schumacher when you raced alongide him, because I think that' He's the opposite also He's a He's u he's a mental warrior, that guy Um I mean, he lives and breathes destroying his teammate mentally, but not in a not in a Like you not in a mean way, in a casual G using the gray areas Daily force He wakes up,'s just it's just natural to him. It's not like He doesn't have to push himself to destroy his teammate naturally immenseally It's his way of life. It's his competitive Super casual. And all day long,? So whether it's We arrive at the track and there's only one parking, there's twenty parking spots at the track. Everybody else has to park a kilometer away. So one for each driver. now there's the team bosses also and Michael would park his car just slightly across into my parking spot U So two wheels just across the white line. in a way that I cannot fit anymore. L literally I would scratch the cars if I would try So stresses me out, obviously because I'm late for the meeting. You always arrive one minute to go, enngineering meeting. It's the most horrible thing to come a minute late when everybody, even the factory, fifty people are the factory, everybody's online. And it's sorry, we're just waiting on NicCo to arrive. horrible So he parks the car across So I'm stuck. because I cannot leave it in the middle of the road And it's just all day long. Monaco qualifying, he locks himself in the only toilet that we had in the garage. There' only one And the last thing you do as a driver is you always go to the bathroom before getting in the car. Um, and he locks himself in looking at his watch time is ticaking and he knows that The most horrible thing is jumping in a race car when you're stressed because you need to adjust your seatbelts and there's these crutch straps at the bottom That' are high risk You need to take your time to position them very carefully and nicely becausecause the worst thing can happen is if something shhifts out of place whilst you're out on the raceetrack. Yeah, because there's nothing you can do about it. Every driver has experienced this It's so painful And because when you're breraaking, you slide down into the crutch And if something's not right in position, you have an hour to go and you're out on the racetrack and you know you can't do anything about it, that's horrible. So you don't want to jump in the car stressed And he's in the bathroom, lock the door. I'm knocking on the door, and I don't know who's in there because no one's talking Come out, come out, come out, please, I need to go. And he just, he knows, okay, three minutes to go, two minutes to go And by then I had to find a bucket to in the back of the garage to be honestly. So'm there where the big addicts are working around me and I'm peeing in a bucket was shaking and I was stressed And this is like all day long. That's like he loved it. So wouldould you ever go to Michael and say Stop with the games. come on Today yes, but at the time I was too young But now knowing everything, I would stand right in front of him. I would look him in the eye I would say Michael these rubbish games like this is useless, you know like And it's not it's not right, you know, to cause me a stress just before I get in the car I would I would I would Now today I wouldll do that because It's showing vulnerability in the moment, but actually it's a great strength. And I' bet you know whenever So he sees that it's causing me suffering. but actually showing vulnerability is superpower So it feels scary in the moment, but it has such a big impact And And so today I would I would be super brave and And I would do it. But remember this guy is like God, huh? Yeah? Like he walked into a room And the engineers stopped working whenever he walks into a room Everybody, the mouths went open. Michael Schuman It's like it's literally this guy' gone I mean, as great as race car driver would have put his arm around you and no, no, no, no, in three years of being teammates He did not mention my name once in three years of sitting across the table in engineering meetings I did not exist. Whbody call you No, I did not exist. Like it was not I did not exist because mentioning my name would be showing respect, like ye, but not me not existing was pushing me the little guy there who we don't even know his name. we don't even know his name, you know. That was his mental worship. It was he never once asked like what did Nico do there? or Not once Like not a single time Is did you do like to protect yourself So that was the learning, which I just also covered from my from my work with my psychologist where he said When you feel that you're, you know, someone's not treating you right or something, the best is with respect, but firmly tell a person This is causing me great discomfort. I don't think it's fair. Please treat me appropriately and One of the examples was now the team boss of Williams It' James Wells who was our genius strategist And he too was consumed by this genius sitting or this God sitting in the room with us at the beginning of Michael joining Mercedes So one of the first races We were small intimate circle, you know, just pre race, high pressure moment, discussing the strategy which James Vows is responsible for. so for him, it's like very intense moment And he faces the Godd, which is Michael Schumacher to explain the strategy to Michael. And then comes my strategy And ninety percent of the time when he spoke about my strategy, he was speaking about my strategy to Michael Like I was not there. like I was like hot air in the room. I was not there So he's discussing my or explaining my strategy Also, focusing most of the time on Michael , but he didn't even realize it's just because you have God in the room, ye. And so you're like, you're just consumed by that. and And it was really hurtful for me though, because plus I was the guy getting more points for the team. I was in front of the championship. I was I was in front of the grid as well. This is the interest I be Michael most of the time, which was very important to my career. Yes, he wasn't at the peak of his powers anymore because he had retired and come back. neverevertheless, it was important for me to stay ahead. Anyway. So then after that I went to James Vals and I said, James um Please I deserve that you give me at least fifty percent of your attention in such strategy meetings, especially then when you're discussing My strategy also, U I'm not sure if I was brave enough to say that that hurt me. probablyrobably not. I don't know. But I did say, you know, in Um, or I must have said, it didn't feel nice to me that, you know, you're just and Then James very kindly did pay attention. next time and did address me appropriately, you know, So That was a very nice example. important example of progress in that sense. Can I ask you about that period where you saw Michael doing things that were uncharacteristic? There was that moment where he baked and He hit someone in Barcelona, he got hit. Yeah, I know exactly what there was So he was his peak was probably pretty similar still to his greatest just said he was he struggled. you know, a race driver's skill is the speed of adapting. We are super fast to adapt to new situations, new grip levels, Because every lap is different in our world The fuel is coming down, the grip is coming up, every lap is different And you have to have an incredible ability to be present and adapt from corner to corner, lap to lap all the time. It's never the same And that was the area where Michael, that was the only area where you could see a little bit that he was that he was u not at his best anymore. His ability to adapt to some things. And the best example was this DRS He had never in his career had DRS where you drop the rear wing and you suddenly go it's like a turbo boost on the straights. You suddenly go fifteen kilometers per hour quicker which means that you get to that next corner in a way that you've never usually get there because you're suddenly fifteen kilometers quicker in a race, only when you're overtaking someone So So he's doing the race, getting to that corner always the same and then suddenly he comes up to Bruno Senna. This is in Barcelona and hits the DRS And so his brain failed to remind him that this is a new situation. He's going to get to the same breaking zone that he's come to with the last twenty laps with fifteen kilometers more speed So you have to break in a much earlier Because if you bake in the same spot, you're off. Yeah. And any bakes in the same spot So he took out Brunosenna in front of him and had a massive crash because that was the only little thing that he was worth at I think then in his peak. Did you see that he was accepting that or that he may be U, he was generally someone, I mean, he's very self confident. Yeah. and And also he's built so strongly on just passion for the sports He just loved racing and loved the sport So I'm sure it caused them mental struggles. to be behind me and to be crashing But I But I think he dealt with them very strongly and in general still was enjoying the moment and the time largely much more than most others would be able to in that situation because the media was bashing him pretty hard Be he the media was expecting he's going to come to Mercedes and win the W worldld Championship Yeah. And yet he came to Mercedes was driving in twelfth place, crashing and getting beaten by his no name teammates. So So I was obviously working there at that time. crashed him the most. I remember the headlines you were creating. I mean, it wasepective. It was horrible was it was a disgrace. I tellld you what was a challenge for the media He at no time said, ye, I think I need to I think I'm struggling in areas. He every time something happened, he would go, Well, it wasn't fault And I think that was part that's the weakness I told you before. the confident the very most confident drivers like Verstappen will question themselves less than someone like Landonris or myself because they always think it's not my fault. I'm perfect. I'm exaggerating,, but I'm perfect, it's the other guy. It must be the other guy's fault This is exaggerating, youh? And well Sw is like Damn I must not be good enough must be me, I need to improve. Where can I improve? Yeah. So it's like one of our superpowers as being more sensitive is pushing more and improving ourselves always. As somebody that is empathetic and somebody that is willing to what you could do better. But empathetic is when you're empathetic is You can be empathetic towards yourself, no other kind of towards yourself. and that's of emotion towards yourself? Yeah., I didn't know that. But I'm interested in how did you learn to trust people where you could share your fall abilities or where you could improve because it sounds like that you're working in a world where People don't necessarily respect that on necessily. No sure. You work with a brain doctor, you're a loser That's the crado in F one or at least at my time on. So you couldn't tell I couldn't tell anybody. Did you not tell anyone that you were not working with a psychologist or No So I probably told my I mean, my wife knew. she saw how much time I was spending She didn't come to check if it was maybe a girl instead of a psychologist. Are you having an affair? saying a psychologist a lot of time. I spent a lot of time in that house. But we have a lot we a lot we have a lovely relationship, so there none of that. What was the scariest moment, you think? The very scariest moment in my whole business life, which includes racing B the, um middle of the race in Abu Ai When I was twenty sixteen where I was fighting for the championship in that race and Lewis had been backing me up And that resulted in me dropping behind Verstappen who didn't pit stop yet So I was behind him and he was driving a fantastic race as he does so often I was behind him And the other guys were catching up from behind and Lewis was disappearing And then my engineer says to me on the radio, this is Tony Ross. Nico You now have to pass Verstappen. otherwise you risk losing the world Championship This is like twenty years in the making childhood dream and it was like it was there for me to take it, you know? And now these totally unexpected extreme circumstances of me dropping beind Vstappen, which normally was never going to happen because we were so much faster than them. U than being stuck there. And at the time, he was still completely crazy. He's changed a lot now. You know, he's become much more measured, much more driving for the championship. At the time for Stapen had nothing to lose. He was, I don't know, eighteen or nineteen years old O knew that it was a fifty, fifty percent chance. If you try and battle with him, it's fifty percent crash, you're out Or fifty percent or twenty five percent you get passed or twenty five percent, you don't get passed. It's like So the odds were not really in my favor. And the engineer Tony says to me, you have to pass now within the next two laps goodness, that is like horri And so I went for this massive lunge And then I'll be forever grateful for st up and left some space and we didn't collide, but he did hold on and he was still in front of me by the time we got to the next corner. So I had to go for a second move uh and then by the time I got past My foot So I was so scared of losing my dream and of messing up and crashing that my foot started shaking. so violently that it wasn't like a little vibration ye. it was a bouncing which I' never I'll never have it in my life you're acceeratated the accelerator forot So I'll never have because the accelerator, you have to, you're kind of, you know, you're being precise with it So when you when you try and be precise with your hands, you also see a shake coming on. So I'm try to be but it was shaking so violently. I'll never again have that in my whole life. ye, no way then I couldn't accelerate properly anymore because the foot was bouncing And so then it obviously is a mental spiral because then your head says, okay My foot is bouncing so much that I can't drive anymore. So then the foot just bounces double as much And just luckily, I got through this sequence of corners with a bouncing foot. Fr Stepan still staying behind me somehow And then I got to the straight, the next part was a straight And so I could push the whole leg through So normally you accelerate with your foot and here I use my whole leg to push it through into the throttle pedal. And somehow it then didn't full throttle. So I was driving down like a rec moment. J driing down the street like that. And that was enough that by the time I go to the next corner, my foot slightly calmed again, which then your head says, okay, maybe it's not as bad as it looked And so I just managed to somehow get my foot into a state where I could drive the car again. So that was my worst ever. you take a that moment when like you get that call over the radio from Tony that says, you have to do this What was going for your head at that moment B I'm going to lose this again like I always did in my career So that was that was my mind telling you that Can it is it can it be possible that I lose this because I most of the time against Lewis, Yeah, I always finished second in F one and in the three years before that. I finished one spot behind him or whatever. and then second in the championship And um, And again same, it was the same in G carden I finished second you finished first So my mind was telling me no, it's not possible. I'm gonna lose this again And that's horrible. you know, And all and all the I had a psychologist I was working with, you know, and all the work I did, but it's hard to completely transform your instinctive thoughts, you know And in that moment, in the heat of the moment, my brain was telling me, No way, I'm losing this again. And that's like that's horrible. So you were aware that these automatic negative thoughts were kicking in What did you do to try and override it or did you just surrender to it So I worked because I'm someone In today's world, it's a bit like Lando Norris. Lando Norris, it's always glass half empty.. When he does pole position with an amazing lap He will talk about not how great the lap was, but about the one corner where he could have done better Ah, yeah, I mean, Yeah. J just at that one corner, I could have done better You're in p position. like talk about how amazing you just did. No that one corner. I felt that I messed that one up and you know I could have done better and because Lanonorris is someone he has a lot of self doubt U and So he's not the super confident Verstappen type. Um And I am I am like that as well and it's benefits, there's pros and cons to being like that. On the one hand it makes the struggle a bit more real because you have more of a mental battle going on there. I'm not good enough, I'm going to lose Um or whatever. But this the strength is that you question yourself a lot more because you're not arrogant. you think How can I do better? I need to do better? So you question yourself a lot more. And you're generally also very sensitive to all little details. So it's like a So theres there's a pro and con to being this kind of character So Where did that come from? Because I'm quite taken when you were describing you doubt what he was managing drivers, you said you looked at these guys like gladiators, superhumans So it sounds to me like you like you identified them as being different than you And yet you entered that world. So Where did that conditioning come from to believe that You weren't quite good enough or believe that there's a lot of genetic in that, I think because it's as long as I can remember that I'm a little bit that kind of profile of person very like in school, yeah, like the most shy person the world's ever seen in my point of view I was, yeah I couldn't even speak to girls. like it was impossible or or speak out in front of class. My whole body was was shaking, you know, It was like really like very less than average self confidence, certainly And I think another thing that probably adds to it is that my father is very different to me. He is many of the older people listening to this will remember him. you know, he's like macho You know, cigarette in the race car. Ohicking clicking it out, putting the visor down, medal to the metal U, And and real like, you know man's man. Yeah, exactly, you know? So so he's very D differentere to me I'm more like I'm more like my mom in that sense and For me, that was kind of the stereotype of how a race driver had to be when I was growing up. That's all I knew how a race driver had to be Um And then also me realizing that I'm so different probably added to to this u What we're what we're talking about I wonder whether Now that you can I wanted to be like I told my dad recently, you know, always wanted to be more like you And did you ever try to be you can't, it's genetic. Yeah. But did you tryind you know what the funniest answer that he gave me, it was like one of our really personal conversations where we sat down for an hour and really went deep and just spoke openly, which you don' you rarely do, but it's like such a powerful thing to do with your dearest friends or family to take the time sit down one hour Brave Be it's scary brave to open up and to discuss deeply things that are worrying us or things that we're struggling with or whatever in our relationship So so hard to do. So I did that with my dad just as a nice thing. I just was a catalyst to do that Um I think just just me being brave and wanting to make sure that I get that covered with my father U and not miss out on having such a deep conversation. And it was right after I retired just to go through it all again. And so I said to him, I wish I was more like you And my dad's answer was I always wished I was more like you. he's very impulsive, whichich creates a lot of problems because he doesn't like take the time to think about it. He's like, boom, react Feel angry, react. And I'm super different. I feel, take time, think, rational A And howt feel with? I wish I was more like you. And then we came to the conclusion that, okay, yeah, I mean, middle ground would probably be the ideal place to be in which for me was an eye opener. You know, I was like, wow, okay, so he wants to be more like me But how did that make you feel? Like you've obvious se in life as spy was me. It was a very I that was really was a good moment for me as well to realize that that he too wanted to be It's not just me, you know, and he too wants to be so because Each of us has our struggles in our different ways, you know, and probably middle ground would be be the best way to be as a. We had that conversation with your mum as well U with my mom it's it's generally just more easy She's just a happy go lucky person so I do sometimes, but She So yeah, we do a little bit yeah, sometimes, but not not in a profound way like that, but from time to time yeah yeah In a moment, we're going to talk to Nico about why he worked with not just a psychologist, but also a philosopher during his forormula One career because you've used a few like strrong words out like it destroyed me and some of those examples as an empathetic. person pretty horrendous But what did you learn about yourself because it didn't destroy you U diffifficult one. I mean, I learned that I'm training my body five hours a day and I'm not training my mind. I'm training my mind zero hours a day. I'm feeling that there's room for a lot of progress So why am I not training my mind? So that's what pushed me to look for a psychologist and a sports sports mental coach, mental coach, psychologist and even philosophy philosophist is it philosopher. So I covered the whole thing U and I went all in on this And and this was one of the greatest discoveries of my life. Like, my goodness, this is huge G and tell us more I was very lucky. I found this quite elderan who used to coach the French national team for skiing And he lived here in the area. Now he lives right next door found him through good fortune and He he accepted me and and then we went through u the emotions. And I worked two hours every two days with him. So two hours every two days harder than any physical training was to be there present, be focused mentally onto everything we're discussing practicing meditation, practicing visualization repetitions Breathing studying philosophy. whyy am I scared? Why am I jealous? Why am whyy are we humans all of our basic needs. Yeah. so I learned that to be happy and content. we need We need progress. We need to grow as humans. you need to learn something, you need to push yourself That's our way to being happy and content you need to do something significant, yeah, where you get U appreciation from others also around you. you know so you need to be doing something significant. And so really understanding all of that it just helps so much in then also understanding that you can't necessarily switch off these instinctive emotions. That's really hard. That's like that llama level. So you'll always feel fear, you'll always fear. but can what you can really powerfully do is adapt your reactions to it You know, if you don't like my father, feel fear, bom, react, bom, knock him out or whatever. No, that's not what my dad did, but kind of But actually Take a moment, think about what you're feeling and react much more appropriately that will have a snowball effect. You can adapt your reactions to things by by learning, by understanding, that's huge for life. So can you tell us an example there where you took that learning of just practicing a pause And it actually manifests itself in your career in racing. where I took a step back and thought about it before reacting impulsively. Do you know what the big problem is that most of the difficult things happen on track and um and you come out the car and you do not have that moment to think about things because They You guys shoved the microphone in my face, right after I got out of the car I didn't have time to speak to anybody that I trusted about anything microphone straight in my face and I cannot say to you, no comment. I need to think about it. You can't say that. You need to engage And that made it very hard. And that's where Lewis was so amazingly good in those instinctive, immediate reactive answers. He was so spot on every time. And I was lost. I was always saying the wrong the wrong thing because you can You can The truth, you can talk about it like that or like that. you know, you can talk about it Lando did a great lap. He can say I did the most best lap of my life or I messed up turn ten. Both is the same truth very different ways of talking about it.. And Lewis was just amazing at when you get that microphone in your face saying exactly the right thing And I was really bad at that. I was not good. So I made a lot of mistakes and that caused difficultty. So U didn't have too much of the opportunity to really take a moment when things happen race on the raceetrack, which was one of my That was a weakness of mine. In four hundred interviews, we've met lots of inccredible performers like yourself that have spoken about the mental game and using psychologists and some of the techniques that you've just described I don't think we've ever heard anyone talk about using a philosopher though Could you describe a little bit about what that entailed and and the benefits of it It's about understanding as humans and understanding how we what are our needs Why are we scared Why are we jealous? Why do we Why do we need recognition from others So it's really about understanding and then specifically myself as a personality. because it's all so much of our struggles are a lack of understanding. So much of our struggles in relationships are we do not understand the other person What what is his needs? What is his goals And if you don't understand, it's very difficult then to find an agreement come to middle ground, you know. And it's the same with myself. I need to it really is so powerful to understand myself better And that's where philosophy just comes in a lot to really understand us as humans What are Well, how are we made, you know, like what are our needs and thoughts and all that? Because There's Geniuses in the past who have already gone through anything that we ever will experience There is geniuses in the past who haveve already had that And they have written it down in a very profound, thoughtful way, in a way that allows us to understand So it's all there, you know? And there's nothing new that we will experience that a genius in the past hasn't already. all these great thought leaders of the past, you know, So it's all there So it's all there for us to just read through it and understand and It's super insightful. And was there any one philosopher that resonated with you? It was a mix because my philosopher was actually the guy I was I was with And he was a philosopher himself who was who There's these German guys like Schopenhuer Netzsche and all these people and he or even Freud and all these guys. So he kind of consolidated thoughts from all of these and he also liked the the Greeks a lot So he brought everything together in his own way. He created his own mixture. And he was teaching me essentially. And is of a line or like a particular mantra from that that you still that still resonates with you today U, man. now I need to uh now I need to think of that Eine or Mantra. um I mean, what something for me today is is but it's not really philosophy, it's more psychology now again. It's like I love to to I'm now super brave. Yeah. Whenever there's a situation where I feel like of, this is a bit, this is going to be difficult mentally U I could not care less. I'm just so I'm just because I know that it's so valuable for my life to just go right into it whatever it is, going up to a person I look up to in a conference, and there's thousands of people who want to speak to them and who are around. and I politely push my way through and just stand right in front and say, hey you have ten seconds for me, whatever, you know I would never have been able to do that thirty years ago, ever, ever, ever And it's still then scary in that moment because you have a fear of being rejected Um And I just had that. two weeks ago a conference, the person looked at my you know, you all have your badges. L looked at my badge It said Nico Rasbberg, Rasberg ventures the person that it was really important to me to speak to this person stred at my budge looked up at me and said, Sorry, I have to go. I'll not full on like the biggest rejection But I could not care less. Yeah. like So I'm just super brave now because I know how valuable it is to be brave and push into this discomfort and just keep going and who cares? So that's a big learning and change that's happened in my life as a result of all these insights and all of my supportort and understanding, understanding that that's so important to do that. And that's why I'ming to teach my kid I'm trying to teach my kids because they're They're scared of every new situation. They're scared of going to a new ballet class. they're scared of taking on guitar lessons, they're scared of performing with a band, evenven though they would love to do that. and I know they love to do that It's their dream to perform in a band Um and they're scared to do day one. Always trying to repeat to them important it is Brave because It's actually what you want to do If you do it on the tenth day, it's going to be easy. It's just the first day that's hard. Second day gets easier, third day easier Repetition makes anything easier. And I'm trying to teach that to them and also show them how that in a way that I it, although there's not many great examples now anymore. Oh no, no, I use myiPone examples actually So I show them the videos and I talk them through it and how tough it was and how brave I was. And then I got better and better and easier and easier and at the end I won. so I do use those examples and and I try to I try to teach them the importance of being brave pushing yourself into discomfort Be that's where you grow. it's where you find joy. You become proud of yourself. suuper important. But tell us about how you learnnt to trust people to be able to share So Because you have to unburden yourself in such just stressful. toust I didn't share I didn't share with anybody. I shared with my wife and the coach And that was kind of it no But I mean, like when you're working for Williams, like when you're going into the team How did you learn to be able to about getting better. How did you learn to talk about your failures in a race without worrying it was going to expose you But I only talked about that to my coach, not to Williams So you never spoke within the team about the challenges you had or your doubts or your fears See that must have ft zeroly though Yeah, that is not nice. You know, that's why also it's it's so important for us to be brave and actually try to be as authentic as possible and talk about those difficulties, learning, struggles. yeah. because it helps us It helps so much, I think. and but I' failed to do that at the time because I didn't I wasn' brave enough and I didn't understand. Was it lonely? Of course, then yeah, when you when the gladiators are circling around you, not not the gladiators, the army generals. The army generals are circling around you and you're alone in the middle. that's not easy ye It's tough. when it's just me alone. Beuse you know I was and the army generals, Three of them It was three of them, Patrick Fraying Frank and S Michael.s Be I was at an event recently And Landon Norris was there. Yeah And we had a two minute chat. I said, How's life? And he went Lonely That's typical. Be he just of course, he has amazing moments also in his life. But it will focus on the turn ten where he messed up or the last week where he had one lonely day or whatever, you know? But u, but he also I mean, he says that he has a lot of that mentally mental health, That is a big thing for Lando because he generally has some challenges And did it ever affect your mental health, do you think? Um so that's funny because Oh the all the struggles It does somehow looking back in general which is interesting. It still stays somehow quite superficial and doesn't have a profound traumatic Because like now I look back and I'm not traumatized the struggles which were, I mean, the foot shaking with first that's like that's a deep fear and struggle at that moment. Like to get your body to do that, you got to be pretty scared. You gott to be pretty deeply scared. Now looking back though, it's not didn't traumatize me somehow Strangely enough, it seems that all that stayed quite superficial, which is good. Are you grateful But I also won at the end, which if I wouldn't have won, I would be sitting here, probably very, very different because then I would consider myself the forever loser and that probably would have a more profound, traumatic impact on my mental wellbeing For the rest of my life, I'm pretty sureort Re Yeah becausecause you know, you you your identity becomes what you're doing,h? You your identity is your this amazing host for the various topics you're taking on in this show and everything. And your identity is being one of the greatest book authors in the world on human performance and microhabit experts and all that Um, and you become that you become that person, yeah And if you suddenly write four books and each of them fail completely and literally only fifty people buy them You will start to think about yourself as a loser Um because even though it's just something you do, but Because everybody else is judging you by that and it has a strong impact on your ear on your thinking. Do you agree with that? Yeah. Well, yeah, and no, no. But I'm intrigued in terms of that because I'm thinking that As a guy that overcame so many of these obstacles to even be in this paddder when you said that you're looking at these supermen, these gods around you, and you're then finding yourself beating them You've already won. so I'm intrigued as to why that fixation of that like becoming a world champion, suddenly change the idea that that you weren't a loser because you obviously weren't a loser Even if you hadn't won the title, if that makes sense. Yeah but it's always glass half emptyer, which I am as a personality So even if I win the Monacco Grand Prix three times in a row, but I still am behind Lewis once again in the championship. thenen I'll pick that out R It's like when I have a hundred people cheering from me on the grandstand, two people booing ferociously only notice the two people booing and focus on that. But I think that's your superpower. I think that's the reason why But it's also a superpower. as I mentioned Yeahah because it yeah But then you use that he told that lovely story when you came here this morning that brought your kids to school, you walking along the beach and You had that appreciation and that gratitude for where you were. Yeah, that's a So gratitude is one of the most powerful things you can do for happiness in life. It's being grateful. present and grateful. And it's actually something I'm so bad at doing So this was surprising that I mentioned this now because because uh the situation we're in here in Monaco, I do then take time to realize and appreciate and that's really important. But did you do that when you were Oh no, no, not enough That's something that I failed I would now going back, I'll do that a lot more. I Although no I did cover that. You know what? I even was grateful for fear. So I in my meditation, so I was doing that in my meditation from my psychologist, I learned importance that keep repeating to be grateful even for Far and failure. So to be grateful for failure becausecause failure is your greatest opportunity to grow as a human being and to get faster and better. It's in failure. If you don't fail, you will not get faster. You will not get better. you'll not get you will not become a greater race car driver if you don't fail It's in mistakes where you make the most progress. And so I even spent a lot of time repeating to myself, being grateful for mistakes or possible mistakes to come Um And that helps to to reduce also The fear around them and the suffering from them. Yeah. ye. So I remember losing the secondecond World Championship to Louewis twenty fifteen And then I was sitting in my hotel room, kind of locked myself in my hotel room. horrible suffering, losing again, you know, and And I lost it by making a mistake. So I was leading the race. I made a mistake. Which race Austin And that handed him on a silver plder, the worldorld Championship. I don't remember I made a mistake, went off the track on my own And I said in the media it was a gust of wind, which it was actually, but you just cannot say that No one believes you. So again, my spontaneous answer was just rubbish should not say that. Just say made a mistake and then move on. Anyways And so sitting in the hotel room, again, repeating to myself This is your chance It's horrible. It feels horrible But This is your chance. to grow even more to use this Failure as your driving force, as your motivation even more dedicated And I won seven races in a row after that One of the greatest winning streaks in the history of Formula One against Lewis and so seven races in a row And that launched that went into my world championship season where I won the first four races. So the last three, first four, and that was the launch pad to my worldor Championship year. So from that moment, seven races in a row because I was so damn crazy, motivated in the details like never before in life. I really want to talk then about the twenty sixteen season the greatest, but maybe also the toughest season of your career With the first. So first and last, first and last So you talked about you became cred. Not even the beginning of the last. it's the moment where you become the favorite to win the World Championship. That's where it becomes tough. Okay, take us to that moment. When was the moment that you became the favorite And what was the impact on you? So the moment I became the favorite was after Su. It was there was Malaysia No, I wear, um U I had quite a big points gap and then there was But it was still four races five races to go And so then came Suzuka And it was only like twenty something points at that point m which is not my twinince fire race to go Yeah. And then came Suzuka and I don't know how I was even able to perform under that fear because qualifying lap, whole like my hands are shaking, ye Why? And because I'm scared of messing up and losing my dream. Because you know it's now so close. You're now the f. Yeah yeah because I'm at twenty points ahead in the championship and there's only five races to go.. And so it's mine to lose kind of already at that point. you know So it's so scary, my goodness to Because it's if if I don't a mistake, I'm world champion. So you're just so scared to mess up and make exhausting. And let's remember, it's hard to drive these race cars on the limit and do well. yeah. It's super hard to be on the edge with these race cards and not make a mistake. As you can see on television, all these guys are making mistakes all the time. Um, It's just super hard qualifying Suzuka Last and it's the last lap. your're only one lap that decides it. It's one lap and it's so hard to do a perfect lap. It's incredibly hard. Suzuka, high speed corners, you know, to nail that. It's a super crazy hardart. The Hest thing I'll probably do in my life, I think, in business wise is to drive this race car well. and and then hands shaking and thoughts messing with your mind Don't mess up, don't m up, I'm going m up. I'm going gonna miss up.. During the qualifying lab ye, where you have to be one hundred percent focused. So the mind is going in and out from being super intensely focused trying to drift you out, take you out of that all the time with a fear Yeah. So it's like a bouncing in and out And I don't know how I mean, forortunately I'm gifted with a great natural talent But somehow, even in those in that mental state And let's remember, I worked so hard mentally. So If I wouldn't have done that, I would have been much worse So I've done all this preparation so that in the craziest high pressure moments, my mind was ten percent commmer. ten percent more focused ten percent better performing than if I wouldn't have done all that crazy work for ten years. wouldould you have won the worldorld Champion? No in no way withithout that zero percent zero zero because it all came down to the last lap of the last corner and My mind definitely gave me at least one percent better performance and it all came down to the last lap. It was one second that decided everything Be there was one second between the four cars hh? We finished A would Ai. One second, four cars. fourour cars within one second And if I would have finished Last of the four cards, Championship was for Lewis. If I finish here in front of not last of the forecasts A the temperature was mine. and it was one second. So tiny lock upp and you're already that's already finished. It's just one a little lockup and it's done because you lose half a second, you're then last I was there on Ple position because of Five little improvements that I had put together during that season First one. Or actually, the first one happened three years ago already in twenty fourteen. My helmet, you'll see it's carbon, pure carbon black Be I figured out that the paint was eighty grams. so I chopped out the paint because One kilogram of our body weight, including helmet over whatever, was three hundredths of a second perhapse slower. Crazy. So one just one kilogam. I mean, take a kilogram And this car weighs seven hundred kilos. One kilogram. resulted in every lap three hundreds of a seconds slower calculated are from the simulation from the computer Is that nuts And it is factually true because we also know that ten kilograms of fuel is always three tenths of a second per lap. Yeah. So we know that. No. ten kilogams fuel is three tenths, which is a lot. One kilogram, three hundred. That's two seconds of race time Very often the difference between winning and losing because Lewis and I were always stacked up in our gearboxes crossing the finish line most of the time So it's the difference, winning or losing onene kilogram So what I do? helet paint. Th I did what else did I do? Oh, I chopped swiss holes in my seat in the non strructural areas which was another tens of grams or whatever, but now I'm already past one hundred grams. Yeah It was And then finally it was also I was doing I was like really great cyclists. and I stopped cycling because cycling the leg muscles are one of the heaviest parts of our body So I stopped cycling because I spoke to my doctors and they said You'll probably drop at least five hundred grams if you stop cycling and if you do running and walking instead. So I stopped cycling And in fact, I was on the scales and I did drop more than five hundred grams by the time I got to Suzuka, becausecause it was during the season that stopped cycling So Suzuka. byy the time I got to Suzuka, communulatively, I had dropped one kilo. And I was on poll by two hundreds. Oh man, that was the one kilo Rellion And that's what got me the worldorld Championship. you know, So so that was also is something that I was just very good at at understanding how to get from A to B, where to put my focus and energy and even sometimes into the details. When you know that five details make a big improvement, then youve got to focus also on those details. You cannot let them You cannot neg neglect them because then you're missing out on a big improvement against your competitor. Then I won the race, even though I was shaking and qualifying and I finished that qualifying two hundredths of a second in front of Lewis on Ple position. two hundreds Uh whilst hands shaking hands, huh Everybody has this shaking hands, by the way. everyvery driver will because It's adrenaline, it's everything Maybe I h had a little bit more than most others in that moment. So shaking hands and then finished qualifying too hundredundreds of a second in front, which I don't know how evenven looking back now, I don't know how I'm able to perform that well in such a situation U so Gle position. even there, my third pple position in a row on Suzuka track It's also pretty cool because it's one of the greatest tracks in the world Um And yeah and the next day, Great start under the pressure and won the race and then I was far ahead in the points because I was thirty plus points ahead. four races to go. All I had to do was finish second, second, second, third Y I still remember all these details because it was big at the time for me personally. So so that was now solidly, I am the big favorites because I don't have to win any races anymore. Just second, second, second, third is enough. So that's like big fameite. that that then The world pressure feeling wise, hu comes onto the shoulders because now it's only mine to lose. Don't even have to win a race anymore just mind to lose. All I have to do is bring it home That's a nut case, s Nut case intensity on the shoulders. And and that's why in sports, you have so many comeback stories ' When the guy in tennis has won the first two sets He's the big favorite. It's his to lose That's when the shakes start. Look at last That's when that's when theone Lando Norris, Oscar Piastri, Max was M when the shakes start. The hand in tennis starts to shake. You start make you can't play any well anymore as well as you were in the first two sets where there was like, You're not favoreite yet, you know But this And that's when the comeback comes and then the other guy totally relaxed Because actually the match is lost. Yeah. He has nothing to lose anymore. The match is already lost anyways. he's two sets behind. Nothing to lose So Relax Let's just go for it. And then Max Verstappen drives the second season of his life. I mean, he did a performance that Maybe we've never ever seen in the history of the sport with the car that he did against the McLarens who has definitely had a much better car because he had re them they had completely relax enjoying himself, having fun, nothing to lose. He's already won four worldor Championships against Lando who is now or Oscar who's like the favorite, then Lando who's the favorite. who who are up like their dream maybe winning the first championship Maybe their only championship because the reggs are changing. You never know if you have another car that will be up for winning a championship And then of course, you get this insane comeback story, you know, that's why in sports you have so much so many comeback stories. Yeah So what you descgring though is like the difference between a challenge and a threat state. So when you see it as a challenge adrenaline that works in your favor when it's a threat, it starts making Yeahactly the handshake. Yeah. Did you make a deliberate change in your mental strategy then to be able to cope with with that changing status from it being a challenge to not In the moment. I never managed to help to do something for in the moment. when I'm in the race car and I suddenly feel a surge of threat or fear I didn't manage to there is techniques. you know, it's called stop thinking. that was the one that I which is a short movement that you do. It's like a flick of a finger, which brings you back into this state of presence. It's kind of a micro meditation Um so there is that technique, but I never managed to to implement that. because you essentially where you need to get to in meditation is also these micro meditations throughout your whole day.. Great presence to what you're feeling, whenever you feel difficult feelings coming up or emotions, you can flick And it's like, present again Be aware of your emotions, even appreciate your emotions, and that just helps them helps calm them down and you are present again taking in You know, and you're not because when you get these strong emotions, you kind of like go into this rabbit hole and you spiral into these emotions and you block out suddenly everything else in life and you're like, you know, and you need to flake and come back out of there and be aware U But I didn't manage to do that in the race car. I meet When we've now sat and spoken for the last hour It now almost makes perfect sense at the moment Nika crossed the line in that last raace in Abu Dabi. can you can actually fully understand why He went I'm doneone s but There's a few intriguing bits that you've told us earlier. So you've spoken about your dad was the kind of man that feel an emotion and then act whereas you were somebody that had' learnt to create that buffer between the emotion and the decision And yet you said when the moment you crossed decided I'm finished. Noew I decided yeah, that was the instinctive decision, but but I still then took two days to think about it. No. So tell two. It's extreme. I mean, for everybody listening, it would be comparable to you tomorrow without planning for it. You walk out of the door from your job and you never go back. Yeah. That's hard. like because what's coming next in life, you know And of course, I have to say that I have the huge advantage that I had financial security, which is very different. I understand than and many people and that's just because I'm lucky. I chose something where there's a lot of money involved Um But u but so that u struggle I did not have because I didn't need to worry. how do I pay my mortgage next month whichich is a big usually the big does work both ways because you're also walking away from suchuch a huge job, such a privileged position. So there's also that Oh sure. but anyways, but still people will or you guys will be able to relate and everybody can relate that if you without planning walk out from your job tomorrow It's scary because you have no clue what to do with the rest of your life I mean, what do you can do? It said at home in Lond Lond de Mon. No, what is it called? M deone More than. More the Lone so so that's really scary. Wow. So take especially d. It's the non obvious choice because the obvious choice. I mean, I had a contract for more years could have earned a hundred million more easily, very quickly u driven a been in the best continue to be in the best race car, win more races So it's not the obvious choice, but for me Again, the rational side came in there as well. I believe that for me U I achieved my goal, so that's clear. That's a tick And I believe that for me, it would be critical to leave at the peak of the Mount Everest. for the rest of my life. I think I really did not want to end up in a situation where my career spirals downwards You know, and I'm going from worse to worse. I get fired from one team. The young guy destroys me in another And then finally end up getting sent home Um, Like some other drivers have experienced, some other amazing drivers, some of the greatest drivers in the world. have experienced in the last years that is not something that I wanted to ever experience because that's horrible because you're you go from King to getting fired and sent home and not wanted anymore, because you're just not good enough anymore. That's like, w That's not good for mental health for the rest of your life. I felt So I definitely want to avoid that. And then yeah, achieve the dream I threw hundred more than one hundred percent into it. So I felt I couldn't do another year like that. That was like so damn extreme every minute of breathing, you know, was around being the one hundred and ten best that I could be in every sense of the word to win that to win the worldld Championship. and that's not That's not sustainable to live life like that. That was pretty extreme So I didn't really want to keep going like that either. And of course, it added in also that the environment within the team was was it's very hard And it's unusual when you have your enemy within your own family, you know? It's like Pst and Senna. sorry, let me make sure not to compare to them, but because it's very different and I don't want to compare us to them because they are, you know, the greatest rival rivalry in the sport ever in a way, it is comparable in the sense that they had two number one drivers. How long did they last? I mean, they lasted two years and then they were done Because it's just not an enjoyable situation internally. because even the team, when you win, they can never really celebrate with you because they need to stay neutral because the other guy lost. When you win the other guy lost. Yeah. So it's not like So it's super hard This The importance of the team to stay neutral at all times. They can never show favoritism U it's a whole different dynamic. And like if you have a Verstappen dynamic where his number there's a number two driver, the whole team is just for you, rooting for you, cheering with you. You're one. you know, you're one, you're one family. I think it's probably a very different experience. and much more wonderful experience and enjoyable experience than when you're enemy is in your same garage, in your same engineering room, all day long, all day. the team can never can never be on your side. They have to stay neutral. even when you win They got to stay reserved tootal when when Lewis wins, ye, he could not scream and go crazy when I lost the race when I'm second. He needs to yes, celebrate. great, we got the win, but the other guy lost and finished second. so let's keep it's keep it a bit mellow. like so hardot. I think. don't want to. I don't want to show that I'm happier or cheering more when Lewis wins compared to when he wins And because otherwise or when I win in Toto would sccream, Lewis' fan base Yeah would go Berserk on social media the next day, all look at the Austrian cheering for the German. you know, I'm sure he's sabotaging Lewis' car You know, this's all that is horrible So he has to also stay neutral meeasured and that's it's painful. So I get those emotions And I get a lot of the logic that you've described. I'm interested if you'd take us into that two day period between Having the emotion and then making the biggest decision of your life How did you come to it? Who did you speak to What what he actually do? I just told told my wife didn't U she didn't really believe me at first I didn't believe myself. I told her. She was pretty neutral. She just said, do whatever you feel like, which was very nice She was really neutral. She wass like, do what you feel like doing which is cool. suuper neutral Um that was it. She didn't talk to anybody Not even my dear mental coach, psychologist and Didn't consult him either. just made the decision. and and went with it and pretty scary had a few moments of crying I'm built a bit near the water, so I have a I sometimes cry, so it's a few moments of crying How about you up? Yeah? Itust it's just's too much like for ye the load And then this decision ing your career. you I don't know anything else in my life. My whole life, I've been the race car driver. Since I'm nine years old, I've been the race car driver Don't know anything else. So it's huge. huge and then coming off the intensity, you know of the season body kind of like caves in, you know, it's like going from thousand to zero. And then with such a big decision So there was some u some moments of yeah. Um, And yeah, so just too the two days just to be sure. And then I started telling people about it and and then went with it I the feeling when it was public the decision was made It was Really? No, it was I was good. I was also Um happappy that the public didn't completely like it was like fifty fifty. There was a lot of some people who actually were like, okay, I understand. Some people even celebrated it like because it's so rare that someone leaves at the top And it's something that people do respect when leaders or whatever do have their greatest achievement and then call it a day. So there was a lot of support also and that was very important to me and nice to see. Of course a lot of people also criticizing, but it was quite balanced, so that also helped me a lot It was not just everybody bashing me like what an idiot? wereere you crazy? That was cool And of course my dad was disappointed a lot because he was my number one fan. so he would have loved to have seen me continue driving. Did he try and talk you out of it? No ye, yeah, he was quite strong in saying you crazy or what the he are you're doing So he was quite firm in his view So I was very much lost Because you stop, you have no idea what's next in life. You just lost So my approach was speak to as many inspirational people as possible, try and get insights, ideas and just go for it and try things. So I tried I had an electric racing team. We were a two time world champion with that actually in Extreme. So that was cool. I Lewis' team. Beat Lewis' team. And then one year he beat us. So we had two he had one championship. That was funny. goingo racing again as team owners against Lewis. That was quite funny So that was called extxtreme. And then after that, I built a sustainability festival where fifteen thousand participants So that was u that went well. that was Berlin But it was not really my end result somehow And then I got into startup investing And I went deeper and deeper into that. and this has become my north star in business now. I've stopped everything else So I'm just a startup investor now and I've built my own fund U so it's really several different approaches and products essentiallyre that we're building and the company is Rosberg Ventures. And within three years, we've already raised two hundred ten million dollars now. so It's really going fast and and we're really getting access to the greatest opportunities in the world of startups And there's The obvious cases also which is the spaceX the anthropic, you know, we have significant exposure also to those So we're investing indirectly or directly in all those examples. So it's become a super success and I'm really Enerergized, I'm loving it. We're a great team. I have a team of six. We're a team of six doing nothing else. constantly in the US. as well because unfortunately that's one of the places where It happens most somebody that is curious and has sort of gone and different avenues since you finished. What is it about the world of startups that that attracted you. It's I can really relate with the founders Be they are living the lives of a high performance athlete. Yeah. It's the same They are relentlessly committed. I mean, their desire to win is off the charts. right. It's unbelievable. Yeah, how powerfully they are pushing towards winning, ye? It's completely the same as a as a high performance athlete, really identical. then their their their struggles Also, because They are failing. all the time. on the way to winning Yeah and they have to transform their company because the first idea completely fails They have to start from scratch, rebuild, reposition the whole team into a new direction And it's they're constantly failing and sometimes in big ways. And they need to just not accept and relentlessly fight through these failures on their way to victory Um so there's it's like one to one, it's exactly the same. It's so comparable. So I love I love seeing these founders you create their success And also very often I can give my input, you know, it's very on the human performance front. you know, N not on which person to hire so much or what business how to pivot the business or whatever, but very much on the human performance front They of course respect me a lot and we have wonderful conversations, you know and really helpful conversations. Be I was going to ask about the dynamic of the relationship because both an investor and a mentor Which one do you find most comfortable Well, the one where I'm at home is speaking about how I overcame my failures and my struggles towards victory and how I worked on his details, you know, marginal gains and the psychology behind it and the discipline and all that, you know, and that really resonates with them. And we have wonderful conversations around that where they can always take something away and I take things away from it as well No and so that's a That's really, really valuable. So and I love how these guys, they have an idea. They're sitting in their living room with an idea And ten years later, they've changed the world and impacted our lives Um it's incredible, you know, whether it's Uber or Airbnb, everything started with an idea.. Airbnb, they rented out a mattress in their living room to a friend who paid for staying on the mattress in the living room, you because there was a conference in town where the friend didn't have a place to stay because the hotels were booked out. That was the birth of Airbnb.. And it's just an idea and these guys are just geniuses, they're generational founders leaders and it's just amazing. And what captured me from a second direction then is that you can make pererforming assset class for Wealth also from the startup world If you invest across hundreds of startups in a very smart way. into the best founders, the best opportunities It really derisks the whole asset class generates an incredible performance. So there's an opportunity if you build the right access with time and very few people it's a little club. It's a very small club. veryery few people are let into this club If you manage to work your way into this club because you're adding value You're helping, you're building, you know, your value add and you become respected. If you get into that club, you can build an incredibly performing asset class for your wealth as well not only your wealth, that of your friends, other families or wealth, let's say savings, you know. And that's the trajectory that I'm on now and performances are now amazing the way we are performing, you know We can't even welcome people that want to invest with us anymore because we're like full since a long time now so many people are wanting to end like asking and this is amazing. you know like it's amazing to be in that position. evenven though sometimes it's difficult to decline. but Um so it's going super well, you know, super performances and Very say. Right, some quick five questions, Nka What are the three non negotiable behaviours that you think are most important in life behaviors Is discipline of a behavior? Yeah. Yeahah yeah. discipline. u discipline Um then I mean, it something in terms of relationships. So it's u Caring or vulnerability or No, no, care or your dearest Yep. . So it's friends, family Because it has a big impact on your own life as well. If you're able to build great relationships, you know those are fundamental importance for a well being for our own lives is to have great relationships and friends and family and and wonderful moments with them U and a problem. So caring, And the third one Oh I'll go for the the takeake on challenges, compete. goo for the wins. Very good. What advice would you give a teenage Nico? A teenager advice would you give a teenage you or teenag me, be more brave Be more brave and push harder into discomfort because I'll progress faster as a human being I'll grow much faster, I'll get better, much faster, I'll get quicker, much faster If I'm braver push into all the discomfort Um in the directions where I want to grow so whether it's, um, being being stronger with the army generals and telling them stop now is enough You did not It's not fair for you to talk to me in that way. Yeah. I you need to show me more empathy, you need to care more for my feelings. I need to help me Um G. rather than pushing me down and destroying me try to So I'd be more brave, more honest, more authentic and push much harder withith Carol. Um And that's that would be a big one. And I could be so much better than, oh my goodness because I was so So yeah, I was not brave. What would he say to your greatest weakness Well, the weakness was also my strength. It was just that sensitivity that I have Yeah. because it's both and it depends. it's generally causes a lot of struggles mentally Um, Just thinking I'm not good enough, never going to win I'm a loser Uh, those the it's like this, uh It's this demon inside your brain that keeps trying to tell you these things. Has it gone It's always going to be there It's always going to be there. I just Careless no becausecause for the rest of my life, Anything I do in business is going to be the easiest thing in the world ever you can throw anything out at me, it's just going to be so easy. It's going to be the easiest thing in the world. So I'm kind of lucky because I've done the hardest thing Everything is just so easy. Oh my goodness. piece of cake, but which results also in a bit of a lack of So I don't meditate anymore because it's just so easy. So I don't meditate anymore because I'm not I don't have that motivation anymore U which is a pity but it's okay. Yeah you've earned the right. I've done it. I really ever I'm good Final question people that listen to this amazing conversation What would you like to leave them thinking about in terms of finding their own version of high performance I would just leave in saying that each of us has enormous potential within us. and you certainly it doesn't matter how much effort you've done or have not done, you're nowhere near your potential So it's really about It's making that effort to to explore what is possible to improve our own performance? That means going out reading That means finding greater discipline Beautiful also is creating a vision board, somethingomet I've learned last year from my from a very close friend of mine that I just got to know in recent years And he is incredible. how he goes into great detail maps out his vision board, writes out his vision board, but great detail every morning he listens to it to it himself when he's anyways walking back from dropping the kids off He has the audio book of his own vision board. So by now, you know, you have text to speech, these AI bots who can read our text So he's got it in his ear, this bot reading out his vision board every morning Another, what is it five minutes on a one point five x, you know, fast. Yeah. becausecause it's just a reminder And it just helps to keep that discipline better version of yourself, you know, And this is one of the best learnings for me. and really it's really powerful So on my vision board now is train every single day And I had a period where I was only playing tennis, not doing any training, and it was like, ad hoc and it's not good. We need to keep moving. you know So now I'm in the gym every second day and I'm running every other day and it's on a vision board And the more I look at the vision board, the easier it is to follow those guidelines, know And so that's super powerful. But it's just another example of all the things we can do to grow into our potential. And it leads into more happiness also, which is wonderful. You know, it leads more to more happiness for us for our relationships, for our family, if we ourselves grow into our potential more. So that's the one takeaway that I would really recommend to everybody to push push into that. And some of it is going to be uncomfortable. You need to be brave as well, but push, make progress, changes, adapt donon't stand still, you know, and I see it, do you know I see it with my father also? It's really wonderful. My father has never in his life been in a gym, even not even when he was a formula one driver Whver. he hates the gym passionately. But As you get old, you know, mentally it doesn't really get easier because, you know, certain You have less projects, you have less passions that things start to get a bit lesser, I think when you're older, mentally is my impression And all the more important to keep pushing. And my father now has managed to find the motivation to actually go to the gym is amazing. And he found so clearly more happiness also as a result of that because he's proud of himself. You know, he's proud He's taking the discomfort, comes out of the gym Hormones are pumping and he's super proud of himself that he again went to the gym, you know And so it's really nice to see that he managed to improve his life at he's nearly eighty now, you know he's seventy eight or I don't know right. So a beautiful example of progress, you know, and the importance Amazing Nico What a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. I hope it was okay for everybody listening