Future Ambitions and Coaching Philosophy

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see M and Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High performance first press conference and Steve, how does it feel to be the second choice of the next England manager Whoa. This is one of the sadest days my career. Did you think to yourself this is This is me done with England. You're letting a nation down. That's what upset me. You just had to look at somebody give you the look and you went, Oh I'm in trouble. He knew what he needed to do to play. Yeah. Eric wanted more. And I'm thinking, well, we're in trouble here Well, Steve, You're in the chair for your episode of High Performance Thank you for inviting me. I've got to say I'm delighted to be here. Because yeah, you kept me going for two years That M sixty two cororridor. When you were United. Yeah. fromom Boston Sa to Manchester used to do it every day. six o'clock in the morning didn't like music at that stage. you just started the podcast And I thought it was a revelation. I really did. notot just that you guys are here, but constantly listened to every episode, couldouldn't wait for the next one. because the amount of detail that you got from people has never been released before. E I read a lot and read a lot of biographies and books and it's yeah, we won three one and we were top of the league and then the next season we did this but to get really underneath and What is And I always remember your first question, What is high performance to you? Every morning and every morning I had a different answer. So what would you say today then? Yeah, well, obviously inv I've been thinking about it and after after scene. Q quite a few things just recently. I watched the Snooker I watched Mcl Rroy with the golf. Um Watch Fmula one It's I think high performance is delivering, performing High performance under pressure I think that's the key thing. Justin was in and talking about, you know, even if you're a kit man, even if you put the cones out You know, it's a performance. and I do it most days. So when I come in, it's everything's a performance. So meeting with a staff is a performance. Meeting with the players is a performance So and I want to do it at the highest level. So high performance to me is I must prepare for that meeting prereparation is key so I over prepare But that over preparation gives me a belief when I walk in that room that I can deliver that. I can deliver that and Real high performance is when You've got the actual courage to deliver it in front of twentyw three players, eight staff ninety thousand people and you're on the side and you've got to deliver a performance in that ninety five minutes, which it is It's all theatre, it's all the show and you have to deliver that. So preparation, belief and courage lead to high performance and high performance can be Lie level any level and three months just recently, I've been watching lower leagues, non leagues, and there's as much pressure as saw Mark Hgh' at Carlisle against Jorqu. There as you see Marqughs on the side There's as much pressure he puts on himself for winning at Carlisle as he did when he was at Stoke in the Premier League. So it doesn't matter what level or what sport and The key thing for me is that pressure. can lead to mistakes. Yeah So that's why preparation is key ultimately belief in what you what you are and what you do. and that is small wins that you build up you get that belief and then it's actual couourage to go out and deliver that And I've seen so many mistakes recently if you saw the snooker just you know M He has one black to go into the final And it's just straight black I could have done it with my eyes closed And you missed the bike and who eventually won it Comes back in and wins two frames and goes into the final. So it doesn't matter what level. preparation belieelief you can do it, courage. equals high performance when you're under real pressure, if that makes sense. Now, there will be some high performance aficionados like you listening to this now saying Stehen McLaren has just said the word pressure twenty times in the first three minutes of this podcast. But I think that's a really, really interesting place to start. because Performing is one thing Performing under pressure is something totally a little different So can we go to the moment in your career where you either took on a job or had a moment where you were like, okay now. I thought that was pressure but This is pressure Gosh. going to England is is the is the biggest h when we're going in and first press conference and You know, I'd been with Sinn They were Manchester United. It was a manager saw this I knew it. to experience it yourself. And then when you I always remember going up like this with the microphones two hundred journalists, photographers, TV cameras, And the first question is and Steve, how does it feel to be the second choice the next England manager Whoa because I think the skalari had pulled out or something and then fought it and I went Well, welcome to the England job and And I think The noise and the media was a part of it, which I'd seen was fent I'd seen with with Sir Alex And I thought but no nobody can prepare you for that moment that you actually Bang you're there and no one had took me six months and I think whatever job've I've kind of done especially going abroad to adapt and to change and to whatever culture or environment I've got to it's tough. The first six months are hard. really hard and the first six months in England were really hard. I mean, they had me on the coach and lip reading what I was saying you know, and and you know, remember Andora and going and the crowds and they were booing they were puting the bus going to the game. And I'm thinking, o Dar we're in trouble here and the press after. And I always remember the press after that We won three now Press I just delivered a, we were Stephen Gerard was great. couple of goals and letters Um, and uh No questions, gentlemen That's all I've got. walked out. And that was the change for me. and then I went right Iignnore the noise Because what you did, you just came in, gave a statement and walked away. Yeah When did you do you remember making the conscious decision that I'm not going to answer questions after this. I'm just going to speak and go Yeah, I kind I kind of made that decision. I think it was halftime coming in it was Nill Nil. We got the boos of all boos. And I remember saying to the players You know, look, it it's my responsibility And I always think that it's my responsibility. You're prepared, you know, got to believe because you're damn good players Now just have the balls and the courage to get out there and do what you do. and to be fair to the players. I remember that Stephven J this is always someone will always step forward, you know For England, it was either David Beckham, it was Wayne Rooney, it was Michael Owen, it was someone would always step forward, Frank Lampard. and this night it was Stephen Gerard just stepped forward and went dump and win the game and And that was it and I just I had made my mind up h I've had enough of this. I am just going to be myself and try and be authentic and just deliver what I can. And so from that moment on I decided ignore the noise, be polite, say what do you want, but focus on the job which was winning football matches. And what do you think the difference was then for you as a manager once you decided to cross that rubicon and just be authentic regardless of the noise I'd always thought I had been And you always play And I always say to many managers now and It's the game is theatre It's theatre And if you treat it as a great show and you're part of that show and you don't get to ahead of yourself and think it's just about you and it's just about your team. It's no, it's the game in general. It's the whole sid show. it's the whole bans's community, media press So You know, I remember someone saying that to me, you just part the sidesh, Steve, you just part the sideshow, you know, just enjoy it, you know? So I tried to do that a little bit more. and that's when yeah, just be myself a little bit more in front of the cameras instead of right I've got three messages to deliver. Right right delivering that that and that and sometimes you just got to be yourself and I think once I kind of relaxed into the job. and that was from Middlesborough days Greay be an assistant. In the middle as soon as I stepped into the number one, it was Completely different. No one's prepared you for that And you know, Middlesb first four games No goals for, thirteen against, no points pointointless clueless And I went I'm not reading any moreore newspapers after that and just went focused and gotten the job of what your job Is there a metaphor to describe the difference? Like is there a way that for those of us outside of it that we could understand the difference from going from a number two to being a number one the only thing I would say Pase you are as a number two and you think you contribute and you are contributing because you're questioning all the time and you're asking. So you're suggesting That first day in management, you aret actually making decisions. what color socks Guffer do wear? the trip You know, what t shirt, what color t shirt? What jacket Do we need to put up It's like an overwhelm of off quest decisions. Yeah, yeah, like a scratching post for a C decisions, decisions, decisions and You know, I always remember Sir Alex when I left, you know, any advice for me? he said ye he said He said don't seek conflict. You'll get enough of it. It will come to you. donon't have to go finding it, you'll get it Sleep. I remember he always said sleep, make sure you do that. and Decisions You get seven out of ten, right? You've done really well He used to get nine hours ten right. But he said, you get seven hours ten right He says, You're doing well, son I always remember that. So I always remembered if I do make a decision, don't worry, you know, you're going to get three out of ten wrong and you're still doing well. Sticking with the conversation around England, you learning to deal with that preressure is one thing. you relieving it from the players is another because they would have also been feeling that this is more pressured than Chelsea, more pressured than Arsenal, more pressured than city or Liverpool. So how were you able to also find the mental capacity to remove the pressure from those England players as well we did otherwise we'd have done better in tournaments and I think that was the key thing all the way all the way through, you know, I know you don't think you managed to relieve that pressure for them? We tried. Yeah. we talked a lot about it But I think it was very difficult because that's very insular, that's very personal to each player individually And no matter you've got to give that persona. And I think that's why Gareth was so successful He had that persona, that calmness and Sinn was was similar But there seemed to be there was always a frenzy even with Fen. Always a frenzy with myself always I remember Gareth and we talked about the initial. There was always a frenzy behind that. So there's always going to be that and players have to deal with it and players have to England player. they've got to take that pressure on and deliver as they do. and a lot, you know, I've done national team in Jamaica We're the same. We used to come to Jamaica and would you play for Jamaica? like you play for your club You know, and now you just say you, what you will you play for England? like you play for your club with that relaxed And U I've f to several England players Since then And some say well within the camp there was Chelsea M United Liverpool and there was. Fions of discontent. There never was There never was. Right. We just couldn't We couldn't find a balance. And people have asked me, well, weve got a worldorld Cup coming up. You know, for my experience are three tournaments You know, the three key things is You need energy And that was always a problem We had three tournaments. The players came end of a hard season, the Premier Leue Champions League the top players rose in that Fatigue. We didn't know whether to go on holiday and give him a breater or to give him an extra boost of fitness to get him ready for the tournament Soft fatigue was It was always a problem You need energy That's it. You need energy. in your dressing room, in the hotel, on the game, you need energy Second is youve got to keep your players fit So we got to keep cane fit, got to keep rice fit, G to keep Sacka fit, you know, whoever, you elseit choose, but you got to keep your big players fit All right, and three tournaments we had and we Beckerm Mingj you with a foot once Ruing injured, went out of the tournament So we've we for me, we had injuries And the third and most important Things have to go your way Yeah And and a lot of things didn't send en offs etca So then three things are Ta to to anything. So England's chance is always going to be top five Always going to be a contender. and you could never say they're going to win it, they're going to win it, they're going to win it. becausecause you look at Argentina the last time be by Saudi Arabia and still managed to win it. You imagine the Ferar if England had had done that would have recovered and gone on from that. But I think, you know, they they did. and England have to cross that path and been very close And they have an opportunity because I think one He The squad is bigger. and better more balance, but you still need your big players fit And who knows about bnce at the ball.. No one knows about that And it is key in all tournaments. We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. And those two games that cost you the chance to qualify for two thousand eight Did you feel like It was luck that you were missing in those two games Um Well, that will be the Russia and Croatia T We were fine and we were doing fine and we were We're going to Russia. and We're playing on Astrurf She can't play an Nstrooturf in a world Cup qualifier where we just need a drone and we're going through You can't play an Astroef Yeah, and muchus she can So we had to play an Astraturf. Now preparing for Astr Turf is very difficult plays with injuries knees, blood heads up. So we did we did train on Astroturf and it was dry. We went to Russia took his ages to land. I always remember we Why we circling around the airport We can't land. It's the Russians. So In fact, John Terry actually ph A Bramovich on the plane Diddy and said Ran We can't land. For some reason we are not landing And we're going round and round in circles And five minutes later all of a sudden we landed that's influenced f. Yeah. The Chelsea Captain delivered for England that day. And we trained on the artificial we're going to play on Oh night before And it was dry, born dry and we come to play the game And they salt it So whereas we trained on it it was slow. They soaked it and in the warm upp it was rapid and lightate So We had that to contend with. so that was the first one and I thought we were a little unlucky in the game and one or two things, but Maybe then we come back and got the look and the result U and We played Croatach and I actually thought we' going to win T no down, come back to two two, I thought good changes second half and we're back to two and fifteen, twenty minutes to go and You know, someone had a long shot from thirty yards and unbelievably went in and So Yeah, something's happened that you can't control, which is why you have to Control the controllables So when you were standing on the side of the pitch at that point Did you think to yourself, this is This is me done with England. Oh, we had to win You knew cost you your job. Oh without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's That's the job, qualification for a atonement so and you knew we had to win and knew that curtains if we didn't You were also following a legacy of fine men like Graham Taylor had gone through public ridicule afterwards, you know, the turnips and I've in his biography he talks about how his wife was spat at in supermarkets and That sort of social disgrace that followed it Did that enter your thinking at that moment in time that this like we almost put our England football managers in the stocks and L love to ridicule them Um Yeah, I think I think It's always difficult It's always difficult, you know, I remember There is relief Unbelievably, reallyally? Yeah, there is relief So You yeah, you get not get over the disappointment because you never do. but You you take it, you've got to. I always remember after going there And John Terry was great. John Terry said, No, we're going to speak for you, Gaffa, we're going to speak for you as well. You know, we're going And I said, no, don't, they don't want the plane speaking. It's my responsibility And I've got to go out and Face everything. Well, we want it. I said, no, I've got to do it and I'll do it. And why did you want that? Be I almost think if John Terry comes out and says, lookook, this guy has been brilliant for us. The players were behind him, we didn't deliver. It's good for you, It's good for your legacy. It's a good message for you as manager. But you didn't want that. No, I always felt it was just my responsibility too do that and face the media and not them because they They had to carry on planing for England. I knew that And I knew what the job was and I knew the consequences. I'd seen in at the side was spent through many, many ups and downs and see how he handled it. and I've got to handle it with great dignity. I thought I tried to do that. press conference the next morning, then I remember going home And I live in Yarmand and my house is a mile downown a long road. the main road and it's a mile to my house and through it and coming back on the night wife And there was cars parked each side of that my long road. W all the way down to the house and I went, wow thought I hope this isn't going to be it, you know, constant And I got in got into my house, got through And now remember R I'm Craigie from Sky Sports H. Cy I went ' a mile long queue of cars. and they're all outside my gate So what do I do? Are they going to be parked here? A' going be here all night or what? He said not, Steie Just make them a cup of tea Take a tray out. makeake a cup of tea He said, just stand there Answer a few questions and they'll go away Big a, Craigie. And he said, I no, now the will, the will. They'll go away So me and the wife we made some cups of tea, tray each, went down But salt fed them. ye ye Fed it through the gate. Um And ye I'll answer one or two questions, you know, which I did Thank you very much, drrank the tea, left them on the floor, walked back in the house To minutes later, everyveryone's gone And to be fair, that was kind of it. you know, And then people move on and And it is right, you know, people move on and they move quickly, but it's a week, two weeks of You know constant constant. and I was lucky becausecause I had good family had a good wife veryer good community becausecause I was in YM, which was All Middlesborough So the Middlesbough people were fine. kids went to the school and said, okay, yeah. So it was an environment in which I could walk down the street and everyone would go, Stve the newest just Stave Rather then So So so it was fine And what about your boys though? becausecause obviously like tryry and put myself in your position now. I'd be worried about the impacts on my family of of this kind of scrutiny What did you say to prepare them for it I think it was interesting because after Andora And we won and went Um came home and You know, everyone was even after that were 's gone's got to quit and it's got to do this, and it's got to do that So we had a we had a family meeting in the kitchen. C't rem how all the boys would have been then Ai you But they all went to the same school My only worry was that at school they were getting usual kids alike So I got the kids together and I said, okay, look, we're in this situation I said, carry on I said if you're getting too much steak, you can't take whatever's happening, you know, hearing or things like that then You know? we' think about quitting. Whit, You want thatad. You' no chance It says you got well come to quality or Euros to qualify for He said school's fine. That's soice Okaykay. Everyone's all right and the misses is in the corner going. Oh no. I going. They gof. unanimous F against one. We carry on? We carry on. I think it's so interesting though that when you say that when you left England there was that. There was a relief, a sense of relief in And in some ways it's such a shame, isn't it? bigiggest job in English football I could be one of the biggest management jobs in the world When you lose the job, you have a sense of relief I think that's every I think that's every job, I think You know, no one no one will and can't explain the pressure that managers Fe. Yeah. Could you try? Could you try and take us into standing on the touch line in that final game? Very difficult. I couldn't Not even that. You know, you you are all emotional, you know, I remember When I went to Derby and Daron Wussell was takaking a game and was he was there. and then he took the game and then I took over the team the next game and sit down how was your faces says all these courses, we go on all this at St. George's Park. just do not prepare you for that. because I think he you know ed the game and he was three ill down, I think, four and ill down at half time, right, you know And you know, that's pressure. You think this is going to get bad, this is going to get worse. And you know, I've had bad defeats. and you internalize and you can't you just can't you have to be in that position. You can't I can't say, well, imagine that. Yeah. and that's what it's like. You have to experience it. and only those who have. that's presume that's at every level I speak to my friend who, you know, was doing Eastlely, you know. He said, Steve, I can hear it. He said, It's worse for me than it is for you, you know Yes, he said, you've got ninety thousand shouting at you. He said, I've got fifty people behind me. and I can hear every word. Well that in every swear word. and I went, You've got a point there. And I'm not too sure that would be. I wouldn't like that. That'd be too close. Yeah at least if there's ninety thousand, there's ninety thousand and it's, you know, far away and you kind of zeroed it and you are focused in on your job and what you've got to do in that ninety five minutes, which is the be all and end all So managing that ninety five minutes is key to everything I think it's so fascinating. And I think we're about to enter another World Cup, right And I've obviously as you know, work with players who've played for England All of whom have told me the fear when you put the England shirt on What are the paperers going to write about this performance? you know that That idea that they're restricted because the pressure is so great. You've just told us about the pressure. We've spoken to Sam Allardice on this show about the pressure. I remember talking to Sven years ago about it I just wonder what purpose it serves. I wonder if we were a nation that was encouraging and embracing of our England team managers and players I wonder what a difference it would make. I not speak to to other nations and other national team managers It's just as bad. Oh it's absolutely. Yeah, ye ye. It's not an England thing. And I tell you something. I mean, I've just come back from Jamaica U we've You play games in Jamaica Oh wow Why were they emotional? R? Um, and I remember goingo to the island and and watching the local teams. and And there's not many of them Wow. The emotion that the supporters have, over emotional over emortal. Maybe this is what's magic then about for It is. Absolutely And and And he said, you know, you and I remember the last game Vitriolic at times, much worse at some stages then with England or any ar And I'm thinking, wow, you know, this And it's just the it's the show. it's theater. And these are such, you know, everyone's passionate and that's what, you know, and you do create a sense of of, you know, you're letting You know, that was my thing you're letting a nation down. That's what upset me I'm letting the team down and I'm letting a nation down. And that's not that's not ninety thousand people.' fifty sixty, sevententy million people who support England when there's a tournament on or there's a game on that weight That's what you realise. But I sense in the answer there when you're describing the Jamaica experience where you were able to detach yourself a little bit and go, wow, this is incredible this display of emotion compared to when you're on the touch line at Weembbley What have you learned about being able to disassociate yourself from those emotions to be able to do your job and protect yourour own dignity. Yeah, I think you just go along the lines and you learn from different managers you learned from Sather Alex you learn from You know, Sin was like was Sin was perfect Calm was personified, wasn't he? He was It just never bothered him at all Was that wasas that accurate or was that just the public perception? was that behind the scenes as well? Purely just Your calmness And I think that calmness he made better decisions. Can you remember a time in England where you made an emotional decision and it wasn't the right one in hindsight? I think the key and I've talked to a lot of coaches and yeah ing feedback. And I said look Game management is the most important thing, that ninety five minutes. We can all go Monday after Friday. And I just read the other day Pet talking about, you know, do you get nervous? Do you get anxious? s Oh, Monday to Friday, I love notot even nervous a little bit. An hour and a half before the game. Yeah, I'm nervous. and I think that is exactly right. And even during the gamamees, sometimes you can be. So dealing with that that the emotion you have to You have to have certain processes and certain You have to know yourself very well, you have to know your triggers, you have to know how to stay calm, come back. you know, and you have to have good people around you, you know who keep you. And you see it now with I see our Teta You know, and you see his two assistants who were trying to bump and calm him down and you know, you can only make good decisions under calmness. Yeah. And that ninety five minutes is important. you know, there's there's the noticeable games where S shouldould have done that then, shouldh have done that then. Change too late, change too early. But can you give us an example Yeah, there was it was that last England game and We've to too and we're on the ascendancy And we're going on to win this game and then just I think there's a little spell of two or three, five minutes Yeah. We kind of ran out of that energy and that initial steam just after h time And I always remember I it Terry Vanibables Stay round. And it's that last twenty minutes and you're looking for changes Yeah, I think we should How'd you think? Yeah, Well, you know, maybe we should change him, maybe one of those is maybe we should Change Steie G Bring off get some energy in that midfield. is run is his run is And I was thinking,' our best player? You know Do you take your best player off? And you think gosh if he goes wrong, I take her best player off and all of a sudden you're thinking of the consequences. But You know, buten consequences of that. S. not Yeah, but he's our best player and I think he's okay. It's the consequences of it. thking I'm thinking too far ahead. and that's the and that's why high performances dealing with that pressure and dealing with that staying in the moment and going, what's best for the moment And you get advice from people and plers. I you have to make the decision on that on the game So I think I waited about a minute or two, only a minute or two to make that decision instead of being Okay Okay, And just as I went yeah, let's make the change bump this god S an em ano. s just that minute. ye. Big lesson for me Just stay in a moment. And obviously, then we kept him on and we put soubbs on to try and get equalizeder to qualify through and it didn't work out And that's why I always say to people. and not just that You know, I can recollect the times that that I've done it, then I also recollect You know, so Alex, get seven out of ten decisions, right? You're okay Yeah, we' got to get the important ones right. Yeah, you know. And that was, you know, when I worked with him, that was his strength. He just went, boom And he had courage in his convictions to do that. and to, you know, doesn't matter Did you know how Sanx was able to have those courage of his convictions I think because I think because he was a risk taker, right U think might have been, uh, Renee when He was interviewed by you guys, I think he was talking about, you know, his decision making and And if this doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work We'll just gamble. Yeah I'll just gamble And that's what he did And I've seen him do it many times many times and sometimes you got it wrong, but not many but it didn't mind. So what and this is he had great belief and this is what talk about, you know, his preparation was immaculate. He had such belief He never blamed he never blamed himself for any defeat any defeat? exxplain what do you mean by that? Be you came in and this is on me with that angl That's right. And I would come in on a Monday and go andam You know, and him up he didn't play very well and he, you know and everything Says sh up, Steie was the referee It was the ref I didn't add on enough time It was this, It was that? And I was thinking Maybe we need to work a little bit more on defense or we maybe need a word with him or we should have you know N, no, no, no no And and 've been fortunate to work with top managers and top players. They're all the same. They're all the same. neverever their fault They've got such belief in themselves that they are right all the time And it's a strength, also a weakness, ying and a yang. So and I really admired that. and maybe I was thinking I should be more L that insteadady going you know what? Let's analyze exactly why we're lost And and the gff I used to just go Sereere. Sere referee that linesman's decision. It was that, it was that, rightight? We move on and we're quick. And was that the key that it just allowed him to be able to process it a lot quicker and move on? Absolutely, yeah, absolutely think It just belief, you know, it starts with confidence but ends up with great belief over preparation and I saw You know, I've seen that many, many times, you know, the and United was the finishing school for me. it was This is what it's all about. You know, if you do Bod Caren, you listen to everything that comes. I used to Read anything on American sports because they were dealing with millionaires way before we were, how do they deal with them? You know, how do they handle that pressure and everything like that? And he that was the finishing school. So can I go back then to the recruitment of you? Because were you aware that that Sir Alex had phoned around his sort of his managerial pay group asking for the most innovative young coach in British football Well we've all seen it and love harvest working with Jim Smith at Derby we're doing really well. Great brand of football. Jim's crazy, but magnificent to work for team We're doing okay. And I was enjoying it. I And I was a coach and an assistant. I wanted to be the best coach You know, in the UK. I wanted to be the best coach U and that was always my goal So you didn't want to be a head coach. It was just being well, I knew the progression. Right. So initially to start with, you know, I got the bug As you do And once you get the book You ready spponge for knowledge. so I got that in progressed and I wanted to progress and progress and get as far as I possibly could. so Clyim Everest, shall we say? That was my My goal in football I work with Maurice Evans And I always say get yourself a good mentor and you know Bill Bezig. Yeah, yeah. you know, I was thirty years with Bill. Well Mentor phenomenal man and a truth teller. so I So I was happy going along, but all of a sudden we was at a dinner in this one journalist who our new was close to to sur. You might get a phone call in a couple of weeks The man He's looking, you know he's looking Yeah, shut up I've read all about David Moyys and things like And I never heard anything and never thought anything of it. gotot a phone call Saturday night It's Scottish vice It's a joke Anyway Tuesday I have we were playing them on Tuesday. I'll loveoy with Jim Smith. You want to come to my new, son yeah She said, right sort it Tuesday that we played them M new won won n, we played well And get back. Jim Smith pulls me back two in the morning at Pride Park S You'll be early in the morning, then S you what, Jim You'll be up early in the morning Well what do you mean? He says, you know what that mean. You've been talking to him, a't you I went Yeah, he went I know, he pulled me tonight after the game And he said u You said, you want me to drive? all right, driving yourself amazing. Brilliant. Oh hook. A fantastic. greatreat And he said, getet yourself there, son you know, tomorrow. So that's kind of how it happened. So I drove next day and met him and that tell us about that Saturday night phone call because we've had people like Phil Jones on here that told us about when he was recruited, he goes to see Sir Alex at his holiday home and the question he's asking him is I want winers. Are you a winner What's he asking you in that phone call I think the key thing to that was It was just it was just real sharort, sharp, abrupt you want to join M United? I'm looking for an assistant. We've identified you an A canon new don't say no U and I went, Yeahah. and he just said right This is it I sort it Pum up b. So I sorted it, met him on Thursday I thought I'd have the weekenduff. He said a hotel Friday Plain forest on Satday Sit on the bench and then your first sessions on Monday And that was it. That was my itinerary. went Oh fine. So I met the players And then e who's this? I got introduced, Steve McClaridge by the by the chairman. He gave He used the wrong name when he introduced you to the I' just like you to welcome. Steve McClarege as our new assistant, I went I watch uil my God you know, the players must be guy new is he I met them on Friday sat on the bench on Saturday, played Kots fororest, one ate one And I come in on Monday and see the gaffer and say What you want me to do He looks What don on't you do, s What do I want you to do? I thought I'm mean for a bulking even before I'd started I said, Yeah, boy, do you know, do you do you want me cross this, Cross there? How do What did you do at Derby And before could anee went That's why you're here, son because of what you did at Tobby Now get out there and coach like you did at Derby. How good for you though? Like empower you in that moment to be like, Steve it's yours then it was that was it. Ting sheet of paper. And I think there was once in the three years were together. he went Steve, I really want you to focus on this P's in behind. Anyway And I went and people say, so, so what is it about him? What is it about him? people's person You just you weren't famame. He trusts you And that was the biggest thing trust him. you trust me first day with that. And I always rem and he always used to come out First twenty minutes How was he going, Steve? How was he going Yeah ye yeah. He said he had to look sharp look car right there. yeah, yeah. And Do you mind if I go back in the office? I just a couple of things I need to sort out. Yeah, no problem. yeah. So it just left me completely to it. I couldn't believe it. You know we had experience, but And I thought and He chose people. he recruited well Recruit the best people. That's the key. It's all about people here and he recruited the best people It told them what the job was Oh they expected to know what the job was. That was why And he let him get on with it And that was it. and And was and I thought, wow And he did that with all his snuff All his players. It trusted them to do the job U and The second thing is set so such high standards. And how would he set those high standards if you're doing the training and the staff are looking after other areas and he's kind of A little bit hands off in the week, how are those standards set and maintained? I think I was lucky because hadn't seen the days when he was fighting everyone. Yeah to gain that power But he gained that power And it's like Ryan Giggs once said in an interview, you know, we used to hear that cough comoming down the stairs at the cliff. and everyone's scarpered It's like the headmaster's coming. Sarper So you just had to look at somebody give you the look give you the whatever and you went, Oh I'm in trouble. to a player or whatever. And so people say you haven't seen the h. He'd never used a hairdryer. D didnn't need to. What were his team talks like? Be I imagine this is a period where you're absorbing It's very much. Everything was in motion. Everything was to the heart You know, everything was What sort of things would he be saying? he knew knew individual players like Gary in, you know, he knew your grandparents, you know. And you say, you know, one of the players who' parents grandparents had passed away Ground out be looking They were looking today They'd be looking All right. Everything was about Every team talk was about, you know, the ninety nine Cub Painco Chance boys chance to fly to the Mon. Fight to the moon Wh's done that Got got a chance That's what tonight is Chance to do that. We were all like Wow Yeah, the moon. and that was it used to just every time even at me was up and going. I think you can feel it even now. can't you see it in your e? I get the goose because you were there with it. I always remembered o It was, we did a Legends game. So it was B Munit against Manchester United a few years ago. Ohember. Yeah yeah yeah W wentter. Yeahah tot very we got all the playays and we was in the dressing room. And Beckam come back, didn't they for it? Yeah. Yeah. He came back for it yeah He gave a team tot in the dressing room Oh my God was unbelieving. And it was And I went at the after I cannot believe nobody has got the phone out or none of the social media in the club had filmed it because it was one of the best team talks Yeah, I'm not saying we went out there and the beam by Munich seeill this time. but it was and that's what he had was just a hook for the game and he knew he knew the hook. There wasn't many tactics, really? the hook of And you know why you're fighting for this shirt? We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners But I think also the manner management was masterful. Can we talk about someone like Roy Keane who I imagine from the outside looking in as a teenager growing up watching this team was a tricky guy to manage and how you manage to get that right with Inspire him enough to go over it, but not too much The Roy was always a balancing act, rightight U What I had my first and foremost about I think w, want a leader, want a captain, what a Well a man id didn't realize what a good footballer he was. neverever gave the ball away in training We played a littleerir I I was a guy with her. Never give her away and He was Yeah I loved him. Wha standards, you know? So you were saying, how would you set standard? How did the goveror set standards like that Why because he had a captain who was exactly like him. and set the same standards. demanded the same standards that he did. So he just went he gets on with it And he did it I remember going in and after one game and we won won nill and I was going Oh well done bice was great. That was great. that was good. Yeah, you were good. and I went Steve Sh them. He says Wa wait We were cup This is Do never come into this dressing room, Steve and say we were good When we were crap even though we would Honesty is what we want in this dressing room. Give us honesty. I went Fair enough right. Lesson learned And I went back and sat down and beah point a lesson for you there. lesson And he said, do you know? He said, I'll tell you something. These players He said They only need two words They only need two words Well done. Don't flry up. Don't give him anymore Just go around and just go Welldom Wellld done That stuck with me all the time. B. So I just said even anyay, if anyone gets a well done from me, then know Oh, that is a well done. and the same was for him When we spoke to Rio, he told us a story about how Keen was very good at testing you quQite early on then he tells the story about whacking the ball at him in his first training session and saying's Stey Markin or any of this? How did How did he test you? because you're coming in midseason and You've So they've seen the manager trust in you Did he choose to put you through the crucible? They all did That's That's what they all did They were ruthless It was It's like going into a jungle every day I was my first five months. I didn't sleep My sessions are planned il about two, three, four in the morning, right? Whether that's a little box or whatever, I planned it tried tovision it and try to make it Perfect. So over preparation, give me the belief that it will be allright and any actual courage to go, R do this ar Teddy do that or Bates do that or whatever and I think it was You just had to gain the respect, didn't you of the players from day one Um and that was So with Right As long as you will like him, And you wanted them standard H of you You know, E go. W and I was one of them that just I thought this was always my standard. I always wanted training tenense. I always wanted It was always winners and losers. and that's what they wanted. That's what they loved they went, well love this. and the way we kind of delivered it it was very and I always There' a training session, you always kept I wanted them in that band if I over arouse them, you know if you over arouse So there's that band. and my job was from the start to get them in that band So we'd have boxes, which were quite competitive, but also humorous that you could Get the energy what I talked about in the beginning, energy I wanted energy So from We got that up so a few bad decisions or you go in or whatever. It was I got them in that sweet spot and sometimes I make a decision and they got them over aroused. That was the worst She couldn't control them after that. So that was my sweet spot So on every And Roy was kind of my gauge to getting in that sweet spot. If that makes sense So as long as I got Ry in that sweet spot Generally the team would follow, right be in that as well And I remember a couple of times, you know, if you give it give a decision against Roy. You know, far R you will last and the rish you will last It's tenem pressous for last No I'm not doing them. you can't. So we'd have like a face off for that You know, and how important is it for you not to lose that face off in front of you? Yeah, yeah. it was if but they can I've seen boxes I think Gffa used to join in and try you zip a baller or someone would and go under the gaffer's foot and They've want to go Gaffe you're in, you know, and hed go, Well, it's a bad bow. Not his fault. Never his f bad bow I think it was Ry passive. when it's aboutad ball R right went. It's the best ball I've played all season. It's you, you can't control it. I can't control it Oh, that was it F. And and you know, and that was the ferocity of the group that you could could explode like that. And that was everybody, you know, that was and sometimes you lose it yourself. but that they wanted that competition. they wanted that edge. they wanted that intensity. Um, and and They did it every day. if my colns weren't straight. Stepve you've been drinking last night one of the corns over a place Oh, that was about it. countnted everything had to be spot on. Perfect. But I've often thought about you during that period and it sounds just so like you must been on hyper alert. you've come in, you've been given this trust. You're work until two or three in the morning to get your sessions, right? What did that take out of you? BeCcauseuse that must have been exhausting. I was gone. On an emotional and a physical level. Gone every You know, which a lucky period five months and that was as soon as I finished poo back to my hotel room flat out. thinking of the next one. So after that five month period I was gone Right totally And I always remember then I was getting in the car park. We just had the big parade waiting down for a holiday, please justust about getting the car big shout Where are you going, son Holiday He says, you're not He says you're in tomorrow He saidays, Yeahah, you're in tomorrow. on all the staff in At the cliff nine o'clock All right? So you've just done the trable. We've just done the travel. C anwing football we're off. And he said, no, meeting all the staff next morning, nine o'clock box, put your medals in there He said, u That was good. Gott to do it again next year Are we going to do it? And I went, o my Godd, wow. And and it was that was a third big thing I learned I think that's what made him different Most people Myself included Win the travel week off. G a week off, we'll discuss it, you know and talk about it You know, and no Next day. what were going to do so we came in the next day And are we' going to do it? How we going to do it again He just hated and could smell complacency amongst the players alth those setting the standards. C you when the standard was dropping So he would watch it Observe a lot, Listen a lot and and body language well. Some are wrong with them, State S wrong with that deal with them I a look at him. and he hated anybody getting complacent and if they got too complacent You know, you say, well, he let people go early You know, before probably the sell by date But he knew that would affect the group There' been many stories of that So complacency wouldn't allow it. But I've often reflected on this because I We've grown up in that generation and loving that relentlessness of ceralics of like, you know, the bus keeps moving and we all get ono it But there iss a shadow side to it, isn't there that It like it's great when you run it But that does come at a cost not to take year. Like you wake off, you know, you've gone through that intense period Surely a week off there would have been exactly what you'd have needed What is the shadow side of that? inability to ever take your foot off the pedal Um Yeah It's a great question U He never did. Didn't allow you to ye And I think I think you know, one of the key talk about, you know, high performance and one of the key things is is to outwork people And I had evidence of that. from the very beginning with first with Jim and that, you know, just all football all day and overworking work people and seeing him in at six o'clock before everybody else and the last to go away and and all this I' thinking I won't work. know this is how we're being brought up. We've got to work So It takes its toll Um, but no I think many times over my career I've had burnout Really I didn't realize it, but That's the intensity that you work at So after them five months and There's always a ying and a yang to everything. Yeah It's a real strength, but it's also can be a curse to your staff Has the job ever reflected your mental health Um family would say definitely Oh I would say yes I would say yes Definitely how I was I don't know, I suppose it's one of them things that I could always work couldould always work And and and it's a it's a fear thing, I think. the fit It could be a fear of failure, but And that's what I love about about Be in football Yeah is that Someone said, if there's an exam Every three days. And you know what exams are like You know, no matter what, you know, you'll take the caffeine, you'll do that. I've got to prepare for that exam and Ive got to pass that exam. So it's like having an exam at school or university or whatever and going got to pass that exam. otherwise I'm in real trouble So what do you do G've gott to do my own work on that So somehow you've got to and And Eric was the same. Eric had it T hug, you know, I was when I went first to twenty I used to get in early because I was living inside I think it was seven o'clock, whatever then he'd be getting in at five to seven . And I'm sure we'd have a little competition between us who could get in earlier And then at night o sixix o'clock here go Yeah. Finished Eeric and you didn't finish No, no, no, no when you I said, No, no, no finish it. you're okay. You can go home. No, no, no, no, no, I'll wait for you. I'll wait for you. And I was just thin He wants to outwork me. Did you see parallels between Eric Ten Hagg and Sir Alex All managers like that. Yeah. All of them, you know, Jim was the same. Spin was You were the same I was exactly the same So parallels, I thought this is the norm. This is what you have to do. you know, and I just think there's a competition between us to do that, you know in Jamaica, he couldn't believe it. it was up upus five, you know, going through things. and And yeah, you're tired and You have to do it because it's an exam. And if you get baed on Tuesday, you find you're in real trouble. So it was that fear of failing hf This is such an interesting conversation because There is no manager that has Mage England. taking an underdog to a European Final and winner trophy. been part of the batroom staff of arguably the greatest era under the greatest manager of English football Gone abroad and won a trophy in a foreign country, speaking a foreign language. managed another national team as well and then sits here and he says, engaged and as excited and as effervescent as ever about the game But I think one thing that separates you again from So many other people is that you had that experience of united under Cyer Alex, then went back in Under Eerric as youve just mentioned which is such an interesting parallel So when you went back in, was different about Manchester United those years later differentiffere Yeah It's just different. And You know, they I was I was very lucky. I went into Manchester United when Sir Alex was being the top, be's knees, won everything when everything, but got over that hurdle of initial twowo, three, four years even where It was all about character recruitment of character. And if there were bad characters and went out drinking, whatever and he didn't mind I think his key thing was You must perform in training you must perform in the game That's it. Anything that affects that. doing in it. All right. so if you You could go out for a drink manyany of them did You could be bad boys or whatever But if you give it in Tranon When you give it in the game, love in you Mavinia You do for me, you're in our team So I think I was lucky in that respect. do that. And I think, how would you replace that? I always remember Wh wants to Who's going to be the next man to follow Cs Aics? What a nightman. You know, what'd you do? And then everyone else has followed on. and what's happened is And Ive had it myself when I went to Middlesborough. I was very fortunate at five years And the first three First two, especially or really tough, really hard. and Steve Gibson could haveacked me. Three or four times, easy to four games, no points, nothing. one or two things you know happened Nothing I thinking N' stuck at it and the third year was a breakthrough And that's when we got recruitment. and it took us years to get recruitment right. and Wishir Alex was the same at the beginning, three or four years before he won anything. reccruit was Get out the bad ones, bring in the good had to get rid of Middles were so many bad and characters come in in jge bank. gotota s k it He got people like that, real good characters So that's what I learned. It was all about recruitment. it's all about people, it's all about players the right characters and you get them in the dressing room So it took me three years. So Eric came in and Eric, I' the same You know, and we talked about it a lot because everyone's ke saying, well, what's Missian out? What's this? what's that? what's the other and H K in standards are set Standards are set, you know We train we're in at nine breakfast and we train at at ten activation in the gym. All right And I think after a couple of weeks, some of the players went Can we change the train in time? I know it Why do you want to change the training time Oh it used to be eleven o'clock. And so used to get up and We used to take the kids to school because we're in breakfast at nine o'clock We can't take the kids to school. We'd like to do that Ery went. No Nine o'clock Ten. First game against Brentford. But we lost. They ran so much, we ran that much. There was thirteen kilometers difference in t. He says they're gonna run that this morning. To be fair, I went, Toby Silly, can't do that He said fair enough, he said, they'll run after me until I tell him to stop fair enough. And he had battles with Ronaldo and he had battles with, you know, Rashford was late for one game one meeting Close the door. It's only a minute, thirty seconds close the door. For the team up he was out of it Sancho I think. . They let go So he had he wasn't too much Too rigid, too strict. In the modern game. No, I think, not, I think No No I think what the the Gavard And Alex was He had that relationship buuilt that kind of first And he had that relationship to and explain Why So That was first. And I think I think that You know rightly or wrongly The beginning, which is absolutely right, it's difficult to have that. pline which I want and standards which you wanted Eactly the same. and I went because I worked with him and I knew him. I went Absolutely right. But you can have to fight some battles just like S Allies had to fight battles and get rid of people You gotta fight battles and you gota get rid of people. But Sir Alex did it in an era where You might get forty games tryrying to do it in an era where you get four games. you get judged so much more quickly There isn't your time to get down these that's why it's different. Yeah Differe and not different It's no different. he's trying to establish Manchester United wayay which we all know, get get the discipline right because it wasn't and the players had had many managers before. and You know, they go in Oh,'s another one. They were big name players though to go into battle with weren't they like? T to go into battle with Ronaldo is a B decision. Massive decision, massive You know, Eicard's principles and he went You know, you've got to do this, youve got to do that, youve got to do that, youve got to do that All right And I think, you know, it's eleven players attack eleven players defend Right. And you must have run or you don't play All right. C of ten defended and one notut got have, you know, So you got to do that, you gott to do that, got to do that. And that was the battle with him and Ronnie that Ronny whether he could or couldn't do it or didn't want to do it or whatever wasn't really the issue. it was the mindset that You have to you know, you've got a battle with this one, youve got a battle with that one, you got a battle with him, youve got a battle And S Alex would have had it exactly the same. And you're absolutely right. You're not given time. But we You know, he built that recovered, I think b start might me in Middlesbururn thinking, who, beat Liverpool three one, didn't we? Yeahep. And I went, o, that's it, you know. And so we had spells of it And we w a Caribbeel Cup and we qualified in the Champions League in that first season. Second season was hard because it I found that at Middlesb but also the first season is tough. Second season is worse. You think it'll get better because you have another window to recruit. It doesn't get better. And he had that second season. and There was ups and downs and ups and downs. but he fought like Mad, the staff were that we were all in that and the ers, good players. Casimiro, good play, Bruno, good players, you know. and other people are good players. you just had to turn it around and change the preparation. So we over prepared. So when I first went to the United, oh my Godd, first day, I finished the session C in Come on then, let's go They're all hanging around going We don't go now. We don't finish now This is we do extra steve Oh, fine. Go ahead how much Beckca went on the right, Gigs went on the left and full backs went with them and bump, bump, cross, everyone's in the middle finishing, another second finish and everything like that. And I went This is what they do. In Cona the story of him, he said the And there's a sign of a good club Wherever I've been, if you finish a training session and they do extra, I go And Manches night, when we did it initially, they won't do an extra They weren't st. They were just going in under Tan Hog. Yeah, and I'm going This is what theyre used to just finishing the session and going in. and I'm like, Come on, let's do a bit of extra finish and Bruno will be there, you know, and Bruno all day in it. and eventually people would follow and we'd encourage it and Benny McCarthy and we'd have him go in a bit. N as not as much as it used to be s. It's always that extra extra extra that so In time it would have turned around. Yeah. And we would you know United. we were walking home after Coventry. You know, the Coventry game, we were three nill up in the semif final. Oh yeah, yeah ye in ever they could.. And somehow by a toeenill, Var saved as I said,' Eric, don't ever don't ever criticize Var again. I said, if they'd have got that penalty and scoreed back from three nill and four three, we'd have been walking home. Yeah. And had I said we deserve to walk home All right So I did that and All of a sudden , I see it so often now and've seen it with Liam. and everyone says You know, And we had at that time, Erx lost the dress room, Erics lost the dressing room You knowing that in that week after, I think it was Crystal Palace. That was the F and ill game. F and ill game. W we bad Oh, were we bad from here We players had kind of turned it around. Before the cup final. Before the cup final. And who led from those players? You know what it was? We used to have a activation in the gym. and some of the players always messed about with the ball and played too touch D' go downb out Always the same, enthusiastic, always positive, always To touch. come in, two touch First day, four or five, second day Five or six, second, third day By the end of one week two weeks Everyone was in he was stand in the bulk and he looked down and go is are doing it? You know? plays are actually going. take on the message We will follow and we will do it together Having fun Smile it Tining was great. They were all infra it. Eric and there were staff You know, how we going to win this game? I think it started with Arsenal, We lost, but we tried something different, suited the players and we did that and then we went to Weemby. And I said After the Asenal game and watching them on training and watching them before and and enjoying it and Focused. I went. We win they c We're win it. How out was this end like the week before you knew you. Two weeks. Right two weeks. Well after Arsenal I think we played the next and then The next I've watched is bright and we like. What he's yelling Oh it It taste. it's in the stars because of what I'mome We're going to win theup. I'm telling you you're going to win the cup and prepared so well that Eriic had a couple of videos never s. like what were the videos or? Just One was everygiven Sunday, I think Mitchell did that one and then another was we had a security goirl I am She was she'd been in the forces Big screen came up Before we're going to the fire big screen and one chair and the chair was great and I went And we're all sat in the meeting room And he never told anyone We all went Somebody's going to sit in that chair All the plays were in stuff. And we're all trying to guess who's going to sit in the chair? Someone's going to deliver a speech from that chair. it going to be Sir Alex Wh' whoo's she gonna be Wh walks in this security girl She sits down And she starts talking about her military days and what it's later to be in the military. together in a war zone Aghanistan powerful and Sip She was so good. O they on a dry eye and we all go went Oh my Godd, we're not just gonna to win the cup. We're going to kill him It was honestly I went And then the game started manan see it. someomeone eded it back over Ke us head. Gosk I' going 're definitely going to win it now. because that never happed Yeahly. You know what I mean? Talking about the Rub of the green momentum I I interest do because I was at that final and when Casamiro got dropped. I think most people were thinking what happens with his career now and seeing the Renaissance, I'm interested in How did he deliver bad news to an icon like that? And how did he respond to it? Wow, that was I honestly I honestly don't know how Casimero dealt with it How we did? Yeah. with such professionalism and such dignity And I think the key thing was that We came back the next year You know we didn't expect to, but yeah We came back the next year Sasimirro was one of the first ones in with a small group and was kind Wow, this is going to be interesting. because he's still here. And I thought that would be the end They stole you was the best trainer was the best trainer C couldn't believe it, I went from day one such professionalism and the best trainer No matter and I went, what happened to him last season, the disappointment that that he must have had Not to be a part of it. notot even in the squad. And when was he told? I think he knew well before. Oh So I think he knew well in advance that he was out of favor, but he didn't know he wouldn't be in the squad I think when the squad was named, I think day before And he still was at the game and he was still in the dressing room And he still came back It was the best trend. That's why he's oven The impact is having. Yeah. that I went Oh my Godd. is what you call performance You know from him and he's's doing it week in, week out now Loveving. great life. greatreat personality. What it? G A The best of fighting training It it'd be the same every day Because that game against Crystal Palace, the Fnill that you referenced, then that's one where P famously said, Leave football before the football leads you. and he was being written off as as a top level footballer What were you seeing that gave you this view that this guy's Class art J just the way he acted, just the way he was. you know, we spoke often then he used to say He says Eric's the best. words He says in detail, in tactics, knowledge of the game is the best Cichiloti is the best manager his work for terms of personality M management Look after the players said. So They said that. You know, he had utmost respect for Eric But it was just every day was the same and he would It would train every day, it would fight every day I it would do extra You know, I know it. Wow this prorofessionalism Yeah, real admiration for him C can I askqu what? Your role was in those moments of conflict, whether it was like the Ronalda moment or Marcus not able to join the meeting and being dropped from the team for being late What would you do in those situations? Were you like the peacemaker, where you take Erics side, where you trying to kind of explain to all parties what was going on and find solutions for people It's difficult because This is always something which I say T to I said to Eric, I said to everybody, Is he doing what you want him to do? Is he doing what you want him to do? If he isn't they do it you can' do it, why is he not doing it? Yeah? If you can't do it, getet rid of him If you won't do it Can you persuade him to do it That's it. But Ronaldo could, right? I mean, he could run back and defend. He didn't want to. But why? It's Ronalo like he's lauded as the professional off professionals, You know, my son who's ten years oldledge football If I say, who's the greatest pro of all time, he says Christian. Yeah in terms of preparation, the way he was the way charisma is just And then and I loved the chatance with him. he was honestly different. Um, but he, you know, he just had us that way of playing You know, and every team Every Speak to Roberta Martinz now, you know, we adt to runy. Eerry wouldn't adapt You know, if he would have done You know, he felt he couldn't. because that was showing a bit of of weakness and that's how Eric was I've seen same traits with with the gffer Sactly the same s it couldn't So R he didn't want, he didn't want to which is understandable because he is As you rightly say, wins your football matches. You can win your football matches, but they had such a clash You know nobody you know know D you just get on with it Ry, you've got to do that, do that, do that, and then you got to return there and youve got to do that. and then you'll play It wants you to run. okay? A little more than you probably want to, but Fair enough, you know, and He always just a point at thow had a thing on the wall You know, its Tent must work H to be a top talent And he always saw I used to go, Yeah, but you're an usedo Right? Now he's go, okay, then Okaykay. So it was always going to be a clash, but you know Everybody's adapted Yeah. and they adapted, you know, to the previous year when he was there, they adopted and You know, you can get that if he's delivering. If he's not delivering, the team won't accept it. So it's just a principle that Eric had And I quite agree with it. And what was we actually in the dressing room when when he left When you had all last The other there wasn't That wasn't a great deal right now No, it wasn't No. I remember that when I thought, wow that and be interesting ays just go away and the plers in general, you know, they're not much different than they are now. And you see them now ter that that have been You know, u In initial ard was great That's great And he just went really light re. I thought it was fantastic. Great with the players and bit tim So we just came in Michael's just come in and Rou just had his own ideas and went four threety three and Bruno there and Casimir Cobby there itceds a good three and he can underl that and he got three results, didn't he? The team played well. And I thought I thought may personally would have given it to Rude To the end of the season because he done what? needed to be done with the same, you know, but They do what they do You made that comment about you love your chats with Christiano Ronaldo when I think over the years, we often look at him. I'm interested in like Can you give us an insight into how he thinks that maybe it is a little bit different than The rest of us may mortals There you have it, me mortals which is what we were. And rightly so You know, and you became even mere me im mortals When you spoke to him, because isn't he just you he just walked in the room and you went Ron is here You know And and he was professional. he was polite. He knew what he wanted. you know He knew what he needed to eat, he knew what he needed to work on. He he knew what he needed to do to play. Yeah. Eric wanted more. Yeah Yeah ye, or different But heat This is me, is this is me. And if you treat me and you tell me to do it I believe and he believed he was still the best in the world which is great which is absolutely great. But also maybe sometimes This is what we want. this is what you want And it's okay to not do it together. You go and do your thing and he's gone to Saudi and it's been amazing for him. and M United have moved on and it looks good for them. It's like sometimes a parting of the ways is maybe the best thing. O, and it was. Totally And it relaxed Eric, it relaxed the group. It relaxed the whole F feeleing? in the ground and And it was the best for both for it to happen it did. And I think, you know, they carried on from that But is there any insights or anything you ever said that you thought, Oh right, that's a different view that I've not. seen from other footballers. Now he and b this out, he was the best And like you said, I'm better than messy, you know, So you eat and that's what I'm talking. When the top top ones only oneon two percent And you've had the one you You find them on the program, you know. You know, they they like you know, they just believe they're the best, you know. You know, Eric Tenhag was the guy that spotted Kobe Mayu and brought him through, the guy that made some really difficult decisions about make players that maybe their time was up at United. He won you that trophy. He beats city in their Fair Cup final You've just told us that he hadn't lost the dressing room, the players were still fighting for him at the end just wonder whether whether there was still more for out and Hog to do at Manchester United? Yeah. and look, and this is my probably message Soill I say to all these managers I see going out, you know can and Well he's lost the dressing room Of course you do Of course you do now and again, you know, Middlesbur Three or four times You know, my last year, my fifth year. Totally. totally lost them and somehow camon while I did and Campon changed a little bit and We had Jimy Fly and A Asan, we had Vedua, we had Jacuba, we had Aim, we had players and I was kind of upsetting them, you know? and and it was my it was my fault, you know, there were what there were, but you know, I was playing one and dropping the other and doing this and that I just went, o I can't played two of them. So I played four for two with two of them and solved the situation. and they were like a revelation. and I went Whow, and then everything, you know towards the end then we got to a European Cup final. and yes, you do. haveave moments where you lose it And it may be not the manager's fault. It may be No matter what you've got in that dressing room Balance is not right and it's got to be right It'ot to be right, is baking a cake, if you put a bad ingredient in it, the cake flops and you can have that. And I've had that, I've had that a lot. And somehow, how would you turn it around? How would you turn it You need to get rid of him and him. Sometimes it takes two or three windows, but you know that Eventually they're going to be all right. And eventually the players like they did at Manu, eventually, you know everyone pulls together goes, we can win a cup here. you know, we can win something, which is what Manchester Unite is about. But that's in general in what I see in always that I always lost the dress room, get rid of the manager You know, and the manager comes in, same problems. Yes. But you know, you can solve it, isn't it? I just don't know how you managers do it. I mean I look at this season, for example, you know, Thomas Frank is a mega star at Brentford The the worst manager in the world when he goes to Tottenham. Leo Renior did a great job at Strasburg pillorered and criticized unnecessarily at Chelsea and we spoke to a coach who was involved at Tottenham. And he said to us, it was an alignment problem I think fans and the media They just don't they don't see what they can't see. No. And we can't see if there's a lack of alignment at a football club. and there has to be, I think, a way of managers explaining better What is going on so that we can understand Why Thomas Frank struggled at Spurs or why Liam struggled at Chelsea or why Eric struggled at United. It I don't know how we do it, but I feel like cknledge gap missing here that would be great for the fans and great for managers and great for the game Does that makeakes sense? Oh You've just said the word alignment. The only time I had success is when everything's been aligned from the top to the bottom we're all sing on the same page. And that's what's going wrong, It misalignment You're absolutely right. It's like the incident was By Fernandez was it who from Chelsea who And is. So Liam takes the responsibility of that. Where it't s it It should be a club The club agree with this Sorry if ever chairman Owner You agree with this? Yeah, I agree with it ort director all the way down it everyone's aligned it's too much of the manager who wants to say a lot, canan't say a lot. who has to deal with it whereas we employ Now sport directors, technical directors. whatever other people above to also be involved in them decisions. so Cubs need to alignment is the key thing you've got to have. When you don't have it, you can't win, especially as a head coach manager or whatever. So maybe in that instance that the club comes out and we all agree on this. E we all agree on this Right? It's clear to the fans then that the whole club's behind it. Whereas Liam I'm doing this. is it the club? So I think once the club out, you know, the club know that if they let the manager take the pressure off course. And if the owner is free of the scrutiny, the sporting director is free of the scrutiny, the manager is such an easy four guy in the game Like you said there are part of the circus Yeah that's right that's their position. Yeah. So Steve, did you feel because because you were there when anyos then comes in to Manchester United Did you feel that There was a misalignment then while they were trying to find their place you cens that? Um, no. I sensed An organisation coming in who knew damn well what Topport was all about top sport people within that group Um and I No Dave They very well, their Brownsfit very well and chatting with I went Eventually this will work Eventually this will work. work instantly, but eventually it will work because there's so much knowledge there. There's so much resource there that and given time and it will be given time, it will work and you're going to make mistakes along the way because Manchest Unity is unique, it's different. You know, from the noise is different from the outside. So and they're learning and everything's about people. And if you've got the right people, generally, you're okay. Yeah, and it will it will work out. I'm absolutely positive And was And what was your sort of experiences of Jim Ratcliffe Um I just used to come round So hello you know, inspect the place and U It was once, I think he went down to one of the dressroing rooms and boots were laying and And this was his detail to his attention to detail in terms of Well, These dressing rooms are not tidy enough This isn't the standard that I want. And I quite hate that. Yeah. went I hate that, you know, people were going, someomeone's going to get blamed for that, you know, someone's getting. They just went I just pointed out that It wants a certain standard you know, And I think that's what they bring. Um all the sports teams which they've got You know, all have that and are all successful So eventually He won't stop until Manchester United A exactly that. And you think they'll get back there I do, definitely. What's the plan for Manchester Unity going forward? All my cl has to do is demonstrate going forward, I'm the man to take Manchester United going forward. and this is what I would do This is who I would buy. this is who I would sell. this is who I wouldd let go. This is the is already demonstrated the culture principles of play the what he would do with the backroom staff. So he's already demonstrated on the field that at the moment he can do that. He's demonstrated that a little bit at Middlesboro what he did. He needs to demonstrate now at Manchester United in terms of can he take them forward Aligned with everybody from top to bottom And that will only be known when that alignment get together and discuss it. That makes sense. Makes perfect sense. I'm so glad that on those trips from where you were living to Manchester United You started listening to high performance. othertherwise you wouldn't be sitt in the chair now. and that has been one of the most fascinating conversations. Ab leadership, about dealing with pressure, about dealing with challenges and letdowns, but also Enjoying success and seeing True brilliance in the flesh and delivering like the most remarkable career that you've had. And we see having this conversation now and Dick Avacar's back in management and Roy Hodgson's back in management, the Neil Warnock's back in management and you A lot younger than all of them. You're like the same age as Jose Marino, right Your stororyies Not over in football, is it Oh, my uncle's better now feeleeling better. And yeah. D don't know what's happening. this is football this way You love it and you just it's just What would you love though? What would light your fire Um, just to be involved in I'm a learner I'm a worker And I'm a teacher basically what I am So any job that involves me with them three things gives me energy, gives me a purpose to get up in the morning So at the moment I'm fulfilling that with going around, talking, coaching coaches, doing That's awesome things like that like I like to be around people. I like to be around a team. I like that. the forma that you get you know, it it It's a sponge a sponge. I want to know about. He was great then to his great Jamaica. learen about international football football over in the Caribbean, you know, Central America, North America' totally different. Wow, you know So I'm all for experience as well. So, you know, it's whatever experience next because You're not I J just Energy is key And that gives me energy. Yeah, if I can teach, if I can if I can work at something, if I can learn and be a sponge and what's happening in what's a lot of my always questions is I ask them, what's going what's it going to be like in five years So you must have said four years ago when you started this, I wonder what it's going to be like in five years Yeah. you know? And I'm like, I wonder what football iss going to be like in five years. But I also think What was football like five years ago T years ago What is the same? Five, ten years ago. What's the same today And we must not forget that Yeah instead of looking too far ahead. So as always my question is What are the principles? And I always go back even to twenty. F years ago withith United, and principles are exactly the same prereparation Yeah M can believe Yeah, make them believe. and then you've got to give them the courage and the balls to go out there and play. Many people said, what makes Ferguson fan? What makes these top managers? What you know, these foreigners that come over what makes them I said, they've just got Biger balls They've just got big courage. They make big decisions and they stick with them and they just go forward, you know, and that's But fucking leave you on that Rather poor notope, but Pfect note accurate note. Are you happy for a few quick file questions before we la? Lete it's been billion this? Absolutely. The three non negotiable behaviours You must be on time. Yeah. You must be on time U You must outwork the other person You must out workor U Daily Thompson, I remember when I started coaching Daily Thompson, used used to say T training on Christmas Day Why? Be I know my opponents won't be working on Christmas Day and I'll have them one up and that' stuck with me. So on Christmas day, every Christmas day, I' just get my books out and do a little bit of pre. I'll try out and outwork people. So work, hard work basically. Third thing is is Enjoy it Yes. I love humour I love humor gives you energy. You know, I always say, well, what are the things that give you energy? Well music gives you energy I know that from Jamaica. That's all we did. play music and that really energized the group. Anger And that she wasfulull in its place to create energy like that but humor also. because you get some competition with Banter with humour Really gets you in that sweet spot What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why Um We had Dave Brasford in at Derby for a chat And its first line was Gentlemen, life's hard He said it a little bit more than that, but he said life's hard It said we read books, fairy tale books with happy endings Life is not like that He says so Expect along the way that it's hard. Oh my God, you's all right. And I say that to everyone So, donon't expect you want to be successful Really successful Billy Hart What is your biggest strength Um, I think my resilience, ye I think You know I'd be say my energy, my enthusiasm. your energy I think your energy. and and I love being around football people or people who can teach me things. You know, whether that's business. and you know, I do a lot of that as well. Listen to that. Anthing that can teach me psychology and give me a little ledge So yeah, my my energy, my resilience because I've got to You know, just b just of What's next? Which biggest weeakness The lish is too long. The list is too long. I try to mask it with whatever, but The list is too long or the prepare expectation. disappointment I think the key is what I was trying to do and I said to everyone Everyone should do therapy, byither way Purely because not so much therapy, but everyone should know themselves. Yeah And that's I found that the key and I worked with Bill for thirty years. and he really told me about myself. And I go to him now and I say, well, what about me? And I said, Well, yeah He says You weren't a top footballer So really you just Don't have that real belief I a top footballer and I went That's a good point, Nan You know what I mean? it's important that you know and it's important that you know your triggers, you know?. You used to tell me in games, trigger Go down the tunnel, count to ten and then come back and people you see to me Where are you going Where are you going? I saidd need to go down that tunnel I need kick a door or do something and then come back and come. it's important. I think it's important you need a mentor. ye definitely need a mentor or people around you, which will probably come to and your golden rule for living a high performance life It's It's the same as what I say about, you know, the three things which I treasure the most, you know respect which is being on time Hard work And you've got to enjoy it. You've got toa have fun while doing it You know, it's The exam is Saturday That's the crucial bitput During that time, you've gota relax a bit and enjoy it. and Yeah Steve, that goes right in Straight awayay's one of the best episodes we've recorded this podcast afterfter over four hundred episodes. Honestly.. Hes there. Honestly, it was brilliant. So interesting. W wouldouldn't say that's've answered enough an amazing life. Yeah just see your knowose growroing that s No no a compliment Bill. It was honestly a masterclass honestly. Thank you so much Damian, Joake, I am not joking when I would immediately put that conversation in the top draw of high pererformance podcast. It goes in the go tier of per all my last episodes Because it was an insight into an era at Manchester United that I still think people don't fully understand under Cer Alex But I feel I understand it more than ever before It was an insight into the modern world of the football manager where as we spoke about towards the end, there's a lack of alignment that no one sees and everyone judges It was an insight into how Steve in his sixties has still has the like he's like a puppy, like puppy like enthusiasm for culture, for football, for U Winning for learning. That's all incredible But I think the thing that stood out to me most of all is that he's a guy who has see that experience so much Yeah hasn't of real warth. like a warmth that we get very rarely from guests that sit in this chair incredible generosity, We perhaps should tell the audience that When Steve left, he realized he was an hour late for dinner with his wife. which I know goes against one of his principles of time keeping is important, but it's because he was being so generous to us with his time and he wanted to offer so much of himself, of his knowledge and of his experience. What did you think I think what you've just described there that last quality of enthusiasm is warmth, his passion, is curiosity is his greatest achievement because I think to of had a career in possibly one of the most brutal industries, you know, like Arenenger described it like living on a volcano You never know when it's going to erupt and you might get caught up in it. So so I've lived a life in an industry that's so are turbulent and chaotic and to still retain that Boyish enthusiasm for a love of the game and a real pleasure to witness it. Imagine being in the dressing room with somebody like that that loves being out there, that loves developing, that loves Be the teacher I think if you can if you can live a life like that and get her Steve's agge and still possess that passion genuinely found what you should be doing Isn't it also a great reminder? to write people off that people in their sixties Unnow difference people in their twenties They've just got forty years worth of experience to add Could not I mean? Well, you much if you were your manager now taking a job and We know the trend is often you want to bring in young, fresh, vibrant ideas If I was a young manager, the first phone call I'd been making a bitter Stehen and saying, Can you come in? I want you to mentor me? W you to be another pair of e ands? But I think if he got a job, he'd bring young, fresh, new, vibrant ideas But with the experience of Ulter Alex did this Eric did this in England when I got that job, I did this. I think I think he still has all of that stuff that we think a young person has with the experience. Yeah, absolutely. But that's a point that I think you're right. We Like we label people and then we spend the rest of our lives sort of reinforcing that label rather than rehinking our own preconceptions or our own prejudices and You're right, he is somebody that could go and do that job really effectively He's got a massive role to play in. This next generation of developing coaches because he's got so much knowledge and wisdom and experience that iss so eager to share. He's a teacher at heart What a great conversation. Thank you, Mate. Yeah, thank you. That was briiant. It was indeed. And if you enjoyed that conversation with Steve You can of course listen to so many football managers and football people on high performance, but More than that, I wouldd love you just to share this conversation with just one person, one person that you think Ites doesn't matter what role they're in, but they could learn something from his leadership skills. I'd love you to do that