The Power of Deep Human Connection

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see M and Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of highigh performance Welcome to High Performance. This is One of our regular episodes where we reflect on the rich array of guests who've joined us over the last five years pick out of that some of the lessons that we've learned along the way. Now I get to take the reins today because I was recently reading a book that featured an interview with the existential psychologist a tonia schnel who suggested that to live a high performance life It needs to be cohereven Do your life add significant Do you feel that you matter and make a difference? directed that you have a purpose and that you belong, that your partaths are something bigger A I read that, this is how life tends to work, I Listen to an interview that Steve Kerr, the head coach of the Golden Slate Warrior said, where he described that he wanted these guys to feel valued, respected, important and relevant So these are the four questions I think we could all do with asking ourselves Brilliant. I love that, Damiian If we shaare some clips N Jake, I'd be interested in getting your response to them. Yeah. And I think you know, just for clarity for people listening This is your work. I'm I've just been told to sit down and listen. So I don't know what we're going to do. what we're going to talk about, but I think I my entire role on high performance, right for the last five years has been the not so clever one. So I'm more than happy just to play the fool on this occasion and ask the questions that people at home might be thinking. Well, you definitely do yourself a dis service, Jake. Well let's start with the first one of Does your life adt Co heaven. And I thought would go listen One of my favorite guests I've had on, the billiion Dots of Pipper Grange What does extreme elite performance require? risk. you have to be vulnerable enough to put yourself out there And every time there is a culture of conformity for me, it's impoverishing It really strips away people's ability to take that risk to stand up. You know, you would have read in the book The Richmond Tigers AFL their tes, their rim you know, their Aple H exercise, which actually came from Atlanta Falcons NFL which was being able to stand up and say to tell a story of a hero, hardship and highlight in their own life And you know, for all these guys had endured and tolerated and the whole world looks at them as brave Doing that where it was personally vulnerable was probably the biggest breakthrough piece that they could have that allowed them to go into a different zone where they dropped fear you know, and they raised intimacy. and it seems like That's like taking a risk. That's non conforming And it's so powerful So Paper there talks about an exercise that is commonly used in lots of high performing teams jake, the hero, the highlight of the hardship that helps people understand the coherent story of their teammate stood in front of them and how they've got there. So If you were to unswerth the three Hs Who were your hero? What was your highlight and what's the hardship you've overcome? Oh that's a great question My first hero I say first because I think like life changes as you go, like, you know, I would Harriry as one of my heroes, I'd put you as one of my heroes. I'd put Sunlow, run whisper with us. of my heroes, but the first person I looked at as the hero was my grandpa because he was a police officer And he was always well turned out It's really weird I hear And then this sounds the most random thing in the world. He taught me to blow my nose, right So I remember I remember distinctly sitting on his knee And he that held a tissue was like now. No. It's a simple thing, but you don't know how to blow your nose when you're three years old He always had his shoes really well polished and he wanted to be a police officer. and then I then wanted to be a police officer And actually, that leads ono a hardship. and it's not the greatest hardship. You know, losing my grandma, as you know to suicide was very hard being bullied and changing schools was hard. There was a few other tricky things along the way. I dream of been a police officer and when I was seven color blind is tested at school and I did the color blindness test They said to me, you're colorblind. I was like, o okay And these are all the jobs you can't do and police officer was on the list And I went home and cried my m I then tried to apply to be a special police officer when I was eighteen thinking that maybe they wouldn't test my color bllindness and they did and I failed again. So that was definitely a hardship relating to my grandpa Um, And what's the final one highighlight Highlight man, too many to mention. My highlight was probably hosting the twenty twelve London Olympics for the BBC N those. J because it felt like I was part of a national moment. likeike it felt like Also when you've come through the ranks at the BBC and you've been on kids Telly and you finally get the opportunity to be a sports presenter. There's validation the jobs that you get given. I remember once sitting with a drember a guy called Ray Stubbs who was a Yeah sports. I remember sitting with Ray Stubbs at the Sports personersality of the Ye in two thousand six And I said to him have you ever hosted this N's Nan. On the A list top talent get to host Sorts personality And two years later they asked me to host it And again with twenty twelve, it was like a big decision. whoo would they put at the front of the BBC's coverage of that Olympics? And I was lucky enough to to be one of the hosts. So I think it gave sort of validation really to that kid that you know left home at eighteen to try and become a TV presenter in London. brilliant story and actually let's go a bit further into the conversation with Pippa Because that first example of your grandpa being a hero is something that Pipa actually references. So that triple H is really just an anchor for the storytelling of you know, the hero in your life, the hardship and the highlight And almost everybody tells a personal story that' be about a grandma or a person who's meant everything to them or a moment where they felt really small and overcame or And it's humbling It really introduces humility And the bond that comes out of doing that of like really seeing the person behind the shirt or the human being behind the role or the title is so rich So understanding the coherence of how your life adds up to that moment of hosting twenty twelve Olympics and the roll of you Gumpavin that overcoming some of those hardships is significant And that leads us to the second element, which is Understanding how you matter and how you make a difference. It was a really powerful conversation that we had with H. Now I found it particularly reslevant because he grew up in the area of Manchester where I did When he spoke to us, he spoke to us about something that was really significant in his own life. You wrote a song called My G, right? and you said You said people laugh but we're too strong for it to ever hurt. they might try and bring you down, but it will never work Yeah What are the biggest things that you've learned from her? This might sound stupid how to like how to breathe How to light Just realize everything is fine. You get what I mean? like this girl, I wish I could get into her head and just see what she's thinking about for the day because it's so interesting. Is you just like I don't know if she just it's just a warm feeling. she makes everyone feel warm. she really is the star of the show. It's funny like. I'll go make platinum records and perform in one hundred eighty thousand people, but when I get home, I amm not the superstar. she is. And like, yeah, man, I don't know. She' she literally is an inspiration. I'm not even sitting there like trying to get soopy or anything like that, but like on a genuine one, she's just like some inspiring littleittle person Let's again, relate this to you, Jake in terms of the significance. What are the moments where you realize that who you are really matters? I'm not sure I have realized that really How'd you mean in terms of Who is it where your significance really ays the biggest part, you know, Oh, right. okay. Well, having haaving kids I mean There's a very strange moment when your children are born. that youd stop and you go, oh my goodness, that's how much my parents loved me. And you think back to all those times that you were critical of them or dismissive of them or hard on them or made their lives difficult. And I guess I'm still in that lovely place where fllows eleven and ses nine. So so I remain The sun the moon and the stars to my kids and you just start to see it. not being the case with Florence now. In fact, it's funny, we're talking about it now because I've stayed over night in London And yesterday when I left I went to give her a kiss and for the first time ever her eyes started flicking leftem right like Wh's seeing my dad give me a kiss? goodbe And that is like a tiny moment of heartbreak because it's not that moment that's heartbreaking, but it's It's the vision into the future. The soon it's going to be hard to hold, like holding a hand will be hard and giving her a hug will be hard because other people will become more important. And that, by the way, is exactly what should happen. And the last thing I want is for my kids to be in their forties, still living at home thinking that the sun shines out of their dad's behind. So You need to let them go but I feel like Yeah at the moment, that's the That's where I feel really like validated as a person, I guess. Yeah There's also something there about not just putting your validation in the kids affection int it. There's something wider than that in what respect? Well, in terms of We need to feel that the work we do matters. You know, We've spokke about coherence and way it fits within our life When do you have moments when you realize that what you do? not just who you are carries a weight of significance I think that's probably the reason why I try and do so much charity stuff. So my dad was a charity worker. so I grew up at a house where it was expected that you would take care of people in a less fortunate position than you, where my dad could have earned more money, been more successful, had more lovely things in his life. if he' have left the charity sector to go work in work in the private sector My sister now works for the NHS. My brother spent a long time as a teacher. I've created High pererformance Fation and work with lots of charities. I think this sense of realizing there's more than you on this earth and you can leave something bigger is someone that runs through my family. And I think probably is one of the reasons why St stopping being a football presenter and focusing basasically full time and high performance. was an easier decision for me because doing this with you is the first time in my whole career that I feel U Lack I' of value I think until now I was just talking about other people's achievements. And sometimes in not a very helpful way, should that manager be sacked? shouldhould that player be dropped? focus in minute detail on that refereeing decision with more information than that referee can ever have. Why is that if one driver made that mistake at two hundred miles an hour? Why is that Olympian not delivered after four years of hard work? That was my life like asking those questions on the tey. Who's that helping? Where is this I do feel is of value So have you had a moment with the Community Sport Foundation or the Young Lge versus Cancer? where you've realized the significance of your impact Yeah, it would be the work of young Lives versus Ccer who Harret and I worked with for many years helping to raise money for them and it was It was when we went to what they call a home from home. So it's a house effectively right next to a children's cancer center where the parents and the child who's having treatment and the brothers and sisters can live right next to the hospital so they can still like live the life that they're used to so a mum and dad can still get them up in the morning, make them some breakfast, they can go off and have their treatment and it means the parents and the siblings are all nearby. and if you've had a long day of treatment, you can go back there And it can feel less like a hospital more like a home I think it was that and the reason why that resonated, I think with me so much because it's so easy for us to lose sight of the fact that that could be any of us at any given moment. I don't know whether you agree, but I think sometimes that's the That's the most important part of these kinds of reflections is this perspective on the life that we that we have in our hands at the moment, you know what I mean Yeah Absolutely powerful. Thank you for sharing it But these four questions that we need to ask ourselves' first of all, looked at does your life add up? And you realize that you matter and can make a difference? The next one is around Is it directed? Do you have a sense of purpose Before I ask you that question, I think it's worth as listening to the England Rugby League, head coach, Sean Wayne who found his own sense of purpose Pty bleak circumstances Myad Beep with to a poop two or three times a week. And I never learned, but what that did I remember going to bed Wning to D down and I'm eight nine ten. And this all If ever I have kids They' never going to feel a sw It made me about to that You know, so when Wiging got rid of it I thought it was if ever our coch. I'm never going to have a playerfield in this way. I'm going to tell him everything. so he knows what's coming So I think I've learnard We all I've learned how to be a better dad. So I've learned through you know, I had a coach at Wigon who bullied me tried to bully me And I wouldn't w back down for anybody but he tried it. And I remember thinking I will never ever ever a play feeling the same way as you're making me feel now That interview with Johan Wayne was incredibly powerful, but Recognizing his purpose there come from fairly bleak circumstances. Have you recognized your own purpose I don't think so no. Um I still feel like I'm just kind of like stumbling through. If that makes sense and seeing what comes up. I mean, I don't believe in a huge amount of planning One thing I do resonate with when I hear that from Sa Main is this idea of understanding that what is hard for you isn't necessarily bad for you. know it was very difficult for him what happened to him with his dad and And that sort of behavior can never be condoned. But at the same time Um, those hard things that we experienence at a young age often give us the resilience or put life into a perspective that is valuable. later on in life, but I don't feel that I have really found my purpose because I think that I guess I wear like multiple hats. You know, I love tove infinite purpose from Suie Ma that Life isn't about setting specific goals, it's about being a little bit better every day. So maybe I could answer it with that lightly I guess my purpose is to not compare myself to other people to compare myself to who I was yesterday. So if I can just be a step today of where I was yesterday And tomorrow be a step ahead of where I am today I think that's probably My purpose u And then in terms of trying to do things that are good and are valuable for other people I think maybe that comes down less to your purpose and more to your morals Yeah, your morals, your values What would you say if you were to answer that then? what What are the three values that you hold true to Empathy over opinion making people realize the potential that they've got their fingertips showing people That Being curious and having a mind of exploration beat just about everything else Ellen which then allows you to make decisions about what you're going to do next and whet you're going to take it on, which gives us that sense of purpose and clarity. So that brings us to fourth of what I suggest the questions we can all be asking ourselves, which is Do you have a sense of belonging, feeling that you're part of something bigger? So when I first read about this from the existential psychologist to Tanya Schneel The fore fun about feeling a sense of belonging, being part of something bigger. Reminded me of this conversation that we had on the first time round with Dr. Brong and Chatterji And I tell you one of my patients from a few years ago remembember so well on I think the story might resonate with your audience. thirirty five year old chap. came in to see me felt a bit indifferent about life getting pretty low And I was asking him about his life and from the outside, But this g is crushing it good job running his own business, right making good money, driving his sports car. right? He's got all those external metrics of success Maybe people are listing right now going, yeah, that's what I want. But here's the thing I asked him ' I was trying to figure out what's going here, Why is he feeling so low? Why does he struggest get up beds in mornings And I said, Okay, how often do you see friends And he said, Well, you know, how you know, I'm sort of Kind of see what theyre up to on social media. seeee them on Facebook and Instagram. I know what they're doing. U N said, how often do you actually see them in real life He guess I'm just too busy. I don't have time. So I checked other things out, but the prescription I gave to him, I said, Okaykay, listen. For the next six weeks, I want you to See your friends in person. once a week Now he was lucky, he lived in the town where he grew up. So his friends actually lived nearby, He just never saw them I sent him away. He comes back six weeks later s He's like a different person who bounces into the room. and I said how are you feeling goes It's just I feel great. I said, what happened? He goes, Well We started off On a Sunday morning, we'd go to the local cafe and catch up our latete And then after a few weeks, that led to us restarting playing fiveer sides once a week And essentially, you know I'm not exaggerating one eye out to here He didn't have a you know, a serotonin deficiency Right He didn't have an antidepressant deficiency He had a friendship and relationship deficiency in his life. And he actually had the relationships He was just too busy chasing success to actually nourish them. Powerful stuff, so yeah. Who do you belong to that nvishes you? Well, I would definitely say Harriet my wife, but I would also say for a long time, I was the beloke that Rong and Chuttered you was talking about there becausecause you know, I left Norwich to go make it in television and then I was on Kids Telly And I had to put my everything into being on kids TV. and then I got an opportunity to host Formula One. And I had to basically Not in a ruthless way, but I had to not see the people I was on kids TV with anymore because they were busy working on kids TV and I had to go and travel the world doing Formula onene, and I couldn't afford to mess that job up because I was given a one year contract And told by my boss at the time. People don make their minds up about you within thirty seconds. If their minds are made up in a bad way, that could be it for you This is my one opportunity And that was a lonely job because I felt the weight of responsibility. so while everyone else was out drinking and partying around the world with F one, I was fully focused on G that job right And then I eventually got an opportunity to go to BT sport And again, it was a big risk and my boss in that instance said to me a week before He said, how do you feel about the fact that BT have gambled the best part of a billion quid on this and you're the one that's responsible for making it successful or not? So again, the responsibility meant I didn't really enjoy that and I didn't really socialize much. I just focus on trying to be the best football presenter that I could be. And then when I stop doing that and I come and trying to make high performance as great as it can be. I don't see the guys who used to work with on football So not long ago, I was in exactly the position that that person was in and I definitely I wasn't lonely because I'm busy and I've got lots going on But if you said to me, who will you ring if you've got an issue probablyrobably would have said nobody, right? Yeah which is an embarrassing thing to admit as a guy in your forties and not a great place to be But I think it wasn't just the constant changing of jobs and this for whatever reason drive and desire to be successful had caused all of that I think I'd also slipped into a place where my conversations with people partarticularly other blokes, I were just not very fulfilling and it's not from their responsibility. that's my responsibility So I just really do struggle with small how are you what you went up to? whereere you going on a holiday?? Like, I have this voice in my head gun where this person's gone holiday and they don't give a shit where I'm going on holiday and how our kids are and how their kids are And what had happened was I'd allowed myself to not stop having real conversations basically because I was busy doing other things. So then I had to make a conscious effort to go, right, the first thing I need to do is live like the kind of person I talk about. We should be on high performance, right which is lean into people, which is understand people a bit more And it actually came from me trying to have proper conversations. So when I'm seeing my mates no longer going, how's life, How are their kids I would say things like I know you're running your own business. I know it's hard out there. How are you actually getting on or friends who just had a kids I remember when our kid was born And it was properly effffecting, and it made you quite lonely. What's the biggest struggle you've got at the moment? thoseose kinds of questions or like Im What's keeping you up at night at the moment is one that I found really opened people up. And what I liked about that was as soon as you ask those kinds of actual valuable questions they would then start asking you really valuable questions. that was really good and it helped a bit But then After a bit of nagging from Harry, I also had to go one step further and actually start trying to socialize with people a bit more.. So she convs me to create like a group of few dads that my kids schooled and we go and I have cururry once a month You know, I had a saunna put in my garden at the start of the year, I've asked my brother to come over every Monday morning and meeting him sit and just sit in the sauna together for twenty minutes because I think you drift away from your siblings, right? Wh is heartbreaking as a parent of two kids. So it's just trying to lean into people little bit more and accepting that in my work life it is always going to be that sort of transient thing. because I think that's probably like a lot of people's work lives, We no longer have a job for life anymore. So I think we mustn't be looking towards our work life necessarily for all of those connections. We need to try and find them in the life that we have at home And then of course, you have a wife or a husband or a partner But I think also there's There's something that that relationship can't give you maybe shouldn't give you that you should be getting elsewhere So let me ask you then what are the benefits? Thank you for sharing that because like you say, I think is brave and I don't think as men we often open up. Very rarely that ide do making friends Yeah can be hard. A I used to come you might have sens this. I used to come home from like a night out a few drinks with some mates and Harrt but like, what'd you talk about? And I'm like not much really. She'd come home and tell me all these amazing in depth things they discussed. And so I remember thinking, Well, we need to talk a bit more like this kind of a conversation we're having is what I want Blokes listen to this podcast to. I think what I wanted to explore with you there is what we seen and the benefits of doing that of leaning in people Well, an empathy and an understanding that other people are struggling. You know how you always have a view that your life is a struggle and everyone else's is easy. Once you start saying, what's keeping you up at night You very quickly realize that there is a lot going on. And also I think we're guilty of assuming someone's behavior tells them what they think about us. It's absolute nonsense. someone's behavior tells us what they think about their life, right? Say what you mean by that? So if someone's quiet or a bit off with you or a bit distant You assume they don't like me very much. That's not true What you soon realize if you ask them how they are is that they've got so many friggin things spinning around in their head They almost haven't got any spare capacity to connect with you properly But if you connect with them then that's great. I think the final thing, which has been the biggest realization is that I used to think that Everyone else had loads of mates great like fulfilling social life unt you start going out and having proper conversations with your mates who then start going. I've not had a conversation like this for years with anyone. And you're like, neeither have I. And then your other mate goes I haven't spoken like this ever with anyone, including my parents and you start Having these great connections and life is so much more exciting, interesting and fulfilling. if you kind of make a decision that whenever you're with someone You just try to connect even if it's for a few seconds. on a level a little bit beyond the basic That's standard relationship. If you just try and go a tiny little bit deeper And actually sometimes it's not even the conversations that you have. It's almost just like when you leave, just like putting your hand on them and go, listen Have a brilliant weekend. Just me holding your arm like that for just ten seconds is like Oh I felt that moment know what I mean? Yeah, yeah moment of connection. moment of connection. You know they say you have to cuddle after sixty seconds when you cuddle your kids in the morning, it starts to release endorphins for you and for them. So your hugs should be long saying hug every friend of yours for sixty seconds every day because you'd get nothing done and people might think it's slightly strange try and have that connection that releases those endorphins and makes you feel slightly less lonely. in a world where it can actually feel like you're very busy but very lonely. Berlin And it goes back then to the four questions that We'd encourage you to maybe think about asking yourself First of all, think about who you connect with, who you belong to Second one is think about the significance, whereere are those moments that truly matter The third is something around Your purpose have you identified what it is that you do that makes a difference. And then finally Think about the cohavens of making sure that your life hs up Thanks for listening to us. If you've got any questions that you want us to answer, you've got any thoughts you want to share with us and reflect on Feel free to get in touch with us via any of the platforms that are available and we'll look forward to catching up with you again next time.