Final Thoughts on High Performance

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see M and Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High performance This week on highigh pererformance, the England coach carrying personal heartbreak all the way to the World Cup If there was a lifeg world scale was zero to one hundred, I was in the mid nineties. Everything was going well I signed a new contract at Brentford. My three sons, it just beautiful. I got a phone call to say his comeback is cancerous. There was like to exist in emotions at the same time One of hope, o, we're going beat this and one of reality that. The statistics say that it's unlike you live past twelve months. And the an just come in and said, Mumy might die truth is know we might die, but you've got each other, you've got the best dad that can take care of you. was the worst day of my life Justin, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. So look you're part of Thomasule's backroom team as we gear up for a worldorld Cup How are you feeling Yeah just extremely excited, looking forward to the first of June when we fly out and looking forward to going with the team on this World Cup journey where Fingers crossed, thingsings go away, mayaybe we have an opportunity to Win some silver, it wouldd be very, very tricky, very tough, but ultimate just looking forward to it And you're a guy who built your career working in youth football after your playing career finished. You were involved at Manchester United at Tottenham at England at youth level When it comes to creating environments where people can be honest, can open up, can give their best. What is the secret to an environment success like that a true high performing environment, do you think? Yeah, I'm not sure there's a particular secret, but I do think that creating the right type of environment for people to be themselves peopleople to thrive for there to be enough challenge, for there's be enough support is really important, especially for young people. Young players predominate in youth setups, they you need to help direct them, you need to help guide them of the environment is what creates that. Yeahah, I'd say So when you do that, like what are the What are the essential elements of that environment I think I about myself and the clubs of work, I think personersonally it' being able to build the connection with the players buildild rapport and a relationship, not a friendship, but a relationship where they trust you, whereher you can guide them, where they believe you, but also in that relationship and that connection, you can start saying, okay, well maybe you need to do this or you need to work a bit harder. kind of guide their steps. I think you got to make sure it's not a friendship where you're just trying to be nice about building a relationship, making it Um Making the player understand that you've got their progress at the centre of what you're thinking about. really helps them and it builds that connection needed to help players develop. There's a psychologist called Arthur Aarons who specializes in sort of looking at how you build connections. and he talks about mutual self disclosure where you reveal a bit about yourself and then when people feel safe enough, they'll reveal about themselves and gradually people move closer to each other How much of yourself do you reveal? Because I'm conscious that idea of not trying to be friends, but you still want to be have that connection. Yeah I think as a coach I was showing runulnerability, I think I think that I always spoke about my journey. I played notot a lot. I D didnn't play many games, but I played in the lower divisions They made a lot of mistakes, I probably didn't connect enough with some coaches. for I knew best And my career was quite short. So I share these stories with the players, I speak to them about my experiences and about how also football When you work in Academy foot, it's not just about producing pls for the first team. The likelyood is that they're not going to make it likely they're not going to be a profession at the highest level. So What skills can you help teach and that can help them navigate through life and through sport? football in particular, there's lots of things you can help young people with topics subjects you can help young people with that actually help them if they have if they don't have a life within football One of the things that football often does, right is It lose a sense of perspective Fans, footballers, coaches, the media, you know, they obsess about things that maybe in reality, we shouldn't obsess about and you have had something happened in your personal life that I think probably puts the game into perspective You happy to talk about that Yeah, Jake for sure, might be to speak about it and Hopefully something I say may help some people that may have suffered or are suffering at the moment Well, let's talk then about Leanne Was it love at first sight ood question. Was it love at first sight? She actually turned me down at first F time we met We've known each other, we grew up in the same area And I was seventeen or eighteen when I first met L Ananne and we were friends for a little while, but then I went and played football, I moved up north, I didn't see here for probably ten years. And then it happened to bit Notting Hill Carnival and I saw Yeah as I was walking through the crowd of people aged to stop to, speak to her and then from there we went on a few dates and Yeah, they fond memories and we yeah, we got together after that How early in the relationship? did you know that She was the one Yeah, I think I did. I think I was at the right age to be ready to commit and to be Yeah to be settled. I was back in London. I'd played football all over England for a bit and I was probably back in London settled settled playing, settled coaching as well. just started coaching at Tottenam And then when I met her, I knew after the first few dates that yeah she was the one. she was a very very, very special onean. Hold on a minute. you're saying you were ready to commit. I think we've got to be clear here. Leanne is the one that had to commit because if you're going to go out with someone or marry someone that's in football, youre moving house, you're moving clubs, constant sackings, constant uncertainty and in that world of uncertainty, I'm so interested in what in what she did for you twoo hours, We don'ts know so At the early stage, of course it was just getting to know each other. It was towards the back of my playing carew, I was transitioning into non league and back more coaching So was I was settled in London and yeah, from that time until She left. she was just an incredible incredible woman, incredible support for me She was my Number one supporter. Of course she was my wife She was she took care of the home, she looked after the boys. She allowed me to progress and chase my dreams which is in footmall Of course a wonderful mother to my three sons, so She was just like She was tough, she was resilient, but she was also caring, she was kind Yeah, selfless in in in in And everything she did. Yeah So when you've described a lot there of what she did I'm interested in for those that haven't met Leonne Tell us something about what made us so special and unique, what were characteristics thinkink especially when She had our first son. made Mine look easy? And she took it in our stride And I felt that she was able to handle everything that was going on in terms of C'oming to mother, raising a home So I raising this my sons Creating a home, creat the right environment for me to thrive and also letting me focus on My journey in becoming becoming a better coach. So Yeah I'll just describe her as selfless, but also always that smile on her face brought people together to so many. So many descriptive words I could use But yeah just She just changed my life in terms of being a single man to then being We' L ended in being a married man, my life just changed totally and She made me get to where I am now without doubt We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. And so your career was going great. You were making inroads in the world of coaching, you had kids, you were happily married. and then Lan Lang got ill Yeah, I be I have lots of different fors at times and if there was a life going world scale, From zero to one hundred,ineine was in the mid nineties. Everything was going well. I signed a new contract at Brentford We just had u was given nine days off during the season during January because The schedule allowed it family holiday to Antiga, everything was fantastic. you know, My three sons, it was just beautiful We came back And then probably within a month, down under the growth on the neck which she was aware of, but the doctor had I thought it was just a Giter. by the time we had the assessments and the psy, they realized it was cancerous and then in I think it's Mid February That's just when it just shocked my whole world, just shocked my whole world when I got a phone call to say from Nan say that his comeb back is cancerous and all those years of being taught how to coach people and look after people and nurture people, suddenly, you had a very real world. lesson here in You and L on being a team Yeah, it just it just hit of course and there's it's Your first thinking your first thoughts, okay, not like in football and life in John. okay, we're going to beat this This is it another challenge. We've done well so far. We've been together twelve, thirteen years We're going to overcome this. There's going to be further scans, further tests But it just shocks you, it just hits your system. nervous system right in the center. And it did us, but Lanne was so brave, so consistent So So able to deal with the uncertainty, the distress without it affecting the whole family She handled it in her stride and then of course is for a test and then when you Heer news that we heard in terms of the diagnosis of it being anaplastic fire of cancer, which is a very, very aggressive cancer, which is the survival is rate is very low over two years or over twelve months even it was just like I was just in it was just a bit of a blur, a bit of a daze diagnosis times that would have been April time after sheed an operation to remove it. So yeah, just cancer is a affect so many and there's other people that will listen to who going through the journey have been through the journey. so know when you get their news Of course there' further testing and you hear more devastating news it actually ercks you and you can get into a bit of a blur alladays You've described them as being selfless How did she deal with this horrendous news She Of course is she's upset and she's She's low and a bit of disbelief, but I think There are lots of people living with cancer, so we thought okay, this might be something we live with. this might be something that we that after a year or two we can overcome. So at the beginning stages No, in fact, there's positivity forout was going to beat this But when you hear the sad news, I mentioned previously that just before we came on that At time for both of us, there was like two existing emotions at the same time onene of hope. okay, we're going to beat this and one of reality that The statistics say that is unlike youve past twelve months And the doctor Roy Mararsden said that said that to us. So that when you get that when that hits you, you're thinking this can't be true especially where Lanne's symptoms, although she had a lump on her neck, by this time it had been removed, she was fine She wasn't ill or she wasn't any medication at the time, it was just You would never have known for maybe four to five So from March till probably August, you' never have known because She lost a bit of weight, but that was it just dealing with it, the two things coexist at the same time, the hope And in reality a cocktail of emotions in your body that you find it hard to navigate. Sleep was tricky. Of course, I had to work at the same time. Sleep was tricky. We both wake up and night and be like, you aw ye, you're aw, ye. We're both w speaking to each other so You know, it was just Really tough time for the family, really, really tough time And that push and pull of those emotions of hope and then sometimes having to face the stark reality When did you Like when did you know to let go of hope and face reality at times and when did you decide to just cling on to hope regardless of what was happening I think they I think I learnnt to let. Both exist and just go with the emotion that was present notot fight with anything, not fight with. It's going to be this or it's going to be that I to just Just let whatever emotion presented itself. A lot of time it happens in the subconscious when you're half asleep, or you just wake up in the morning a little bit daz or this is going to happen. I had to just let it play out because you fight against it, I found you just workork yourself into to a feeling that you can't really ready Digest almost So just okay, whatever comes in mind, I'll let it come, it willll show its face and I'll let it go and it'll get on me the day becausecause ultimate it was out of my control And what we wanted to do was not meet Not me Trouble halfway So not meet bring the trouble forward. so November twenty twenty four But in May, I didn't want to be thinking about november twenty twenty four or whether that'd be december twenty four or january twenty five. I just thought we'd just do with a present control what we can control All three of us here have got children I mean, I don't even know how you begin to navigate this for your children who you know, the youngest back then would have been what F five five Yeah five years was Jude How did the do you work out present this to to your kids Yeah, this was challenge, we read some stuff about Oviously in the hospice and like they give you handouts and things to u suggesting that When it got really serious, I was hing serious but when Lam was really ill towards the end, maybe a couple of weeks before she passed When they s said in there's nothing more they could do toold the children a full extent So the children knew my m ill, they knew she had cancer, but they didn't know the full extent So probably ten days before she passed to Alia and we had probably an hour speaking about how we're going to speak to the children And some family members just say said, maybe say You know, mumiess ill or this we just decided to be just honest And I started My words were trembling. And the an just come in and said, Mumy might die truth is Mumy might die, but you've got each other, you've got the best dad that can take care of you. and explained there's more to it, but I just switched by then and the kids just it was just the most, it was the worst day of my life Just all my kids burst into tears, which is just incredibly, incredibly tough. inccredibly tough to tell the children. But what actually happened was after that When they saw their mum, it was likely their mum was going to pass away. they could tell especi my oldest becausecause we hadd almost prepared him with with with the The news It was more accept I think it was better doing it that way rather than maybe lying and then Lamne was no longer herear and I was like what's happened, dad? you know? So I think that was the best way. And even my son to day, I said, I was going to tell you the truth. remember we said from this day told you the truth. So he I think the advice he was given from the hospice was the right advice The real challenge isn't with the oldest because You feel like you can give them more information, but you don't want them to have to carry stuff that their idees shouldn't they shouldn't be carrying. such a hard balance. It is, but It was rarely we were faced with and we have to make decisions in the moment. and Like I said to my son at the time, I said you know This is this This is something we have to face this is something that will that will live with us it's something that you have a lot of support with And that as long as we keep communicating and we speak as a family As your mom, we said you It's free of you you with your brothers, you will stick together Of course I had a lot of support from family, a lot of support from friends lot of support from the organisations that I worked for at Brentford Football club at the time. but lots of people reached out so that support it doesn't soften anything, but it knows that you've got people around you that care about you. and there's people that So many people that helped me and also my children, including the school including parents have my son's friends so I was just was able to navigate a little bit better with that support And what did Lene say to you about your relationship and the life that you had to continue to live that you Did you have conversations about that? Yeah, she did. she just she Yeah, she I spoke with Rio a couple of times over texton because he had been through what I'd been through. and think the And maybe I think together we'd watched his documentary years before And she always said that you have to get on with your life, you have to go back to work, you have to change your dreams. And if the opportunity you came to meet someone, you should go and live your life. And She was just selfless in that. She was just thinking what was What would be best for you and what would be best for her boys So she was just really Adamant, I continue and live my life and Yeah we had so many these conversations that to look after the boys, what she would want, the support she needed from the other family members. so she was very open I think that The Anne accepted towards the end she accepted what was coming to her and for This is coming my way I'm going to try and put this, this, this and that in place Maybe help She sounds incredibly brave. She was without doubt, Jake, honestly, like just incredible. When I think about it now left notes in the phone to me You do this, you do that. this is for this son. is give that to my sister and give this to me. My mom, you know, just it was It was incredible Is there any note that you still go back to? I've got the mud. I've the m and notes for the boys when they're older stuff It's a message long message to me Yeah, just lots of stuff every now and then you look for it it's heavy, just stuff is heavy to even discuss and to feel b it's important that we And throughout this time, did you continue to work Yeah I went back to it after Liam passed, went back to work Probably threeree weeks and before L while Lam wasill, you continued work. Yeah. didid you tell them what was going on at Brentford Yeah, I spoke to them. So yeah, so when So when Anne was ill, she was For large part of the nine months she survived after diagnosis. There was no symptoms. she continued to operate as normal. She was fine So I told staff the staff at Brentford I spoke to players at one stage because I was missing days to go to hospital appointments players or members stand at the front of the players at Brentford at training ground And just seeing their fac is just in total shock because it's a family family club, family people, top players, top environment, top culture And they would just with me they would just support me with me. they were just with me all the time. So felt that support that helped, but also football helped me escape what I was going through. I get a passion and fulfillment from being on the football pitch. So going out every day, putting the mannequins in the grass, setting the pitch up, designing the training sessions, executing the training sessions, that gave me my m my high enabled me to escape a bit from what was going on. Well, there can also be a world where vulnerability is not something that's often at the surface. have How did you make the decision? that you were going speak to the players as a whole as a collective, did that come from Thomas Frank or was it that your decision? Yeah, it wass a bit of both. Thomas left it up to me. We had numerous conversations and Yeah, I can't remember exactly how it how we decided it. we said we'll speak to players and we went not it to in the meeting room and just explain the situation I might be missing some days. I've got to go to the appointment, my wife's got cancer Yeah, the players, like I said, they were fantastic. But yeah the type of club Breren Fadar, people familyily is always first. Thomas has always said that But the whole club just come around, how can they support whether it is Phil Giles, whether it is the O who messaged me like everyone was just so So supporting and understanding if I needed to leave early is no problem. If we travel to an away game The night before, I could go in the morning and meet the team at the hotel or at the stadium If I needed extra time, I could take extra time. so they're so supportive of was going for. It reminds me a little bit of when we interviewed Sa Kalesi, the South African captain of of the Rugby union team and he spoke about this he He wantsed to preside over a culture that in Zulu phrases Ubuntu, which is I am because you are And he spoke about that forulnerability of people talking about loss or bereavement in their world actually brought people closer together I don't I don't know if you would be able to judge that when you shared the information about what you were going through Do you think it made a tangible difference in that dressing room? think that when that Christian God spoke at the end of the season in front of And he really he spoke really highly of me said for Justin to go through what he's been through and still being able to perform, still being able to support us, still being able to coach us still with the leadererss journey. That is something brings us all closeer. I felt like maybe that That may answer your question, but I do wouldn I'm not so it brought anyone close or anything, but I just felt like Caring about each other is at the center of what? Bre for footall clubs about and I think the captain represented that at that moment of time and I felt supported. I felt like Okay These guys I can be myself. if I need to burst into tears in the corner I can And I was happy to speak about it as well. I felt like I wanted to I didn't want it to be a subject that we couldn't You know, speak about it. So people say, how's your wife? not Okay she is for doing that? And so I felt like that club, the environment that club it's open and people I felt comfortable speaking ue to the bas due to the people that work for the club And how much of that environment is down to what Thomas Frank created I think you'd have to say Thomas feel Matthew Benham, I think they've created that type of culture where It's they've had they've been they were together for a while before Thomas left Tottenham. Thomasving had nine years or nine years at Brentford. So He had an opportunity to build something there and he built a culture that people wanted to come to work. People felt together. Phil Giles wanted a club to feel like one, there's not much separation between the academy and the first team. It was like everyone's together, everyone's in the same building and everyone eats together There's no, you can't walk over this part of the building, it was just like that Pun environment where everyone could be themselves, celebrate different, celebrate a diverse working group. It was just a real s a real pleasure to work and to go to And I think sometimes we look at environments like that and we do question, like is there a value in this? Do Does it really matter? And then when someone's going through what you are in your personal life, you then realize actually why An environment like that is so incredibly important and As you've mentioned, this isn't something that Leanne was able to survive. No. And eventually cancer did take her life U sounds likeike at the very end though she was still reminding you what a great guy you were and that you were You are well equipped to look after those children Yeah, so she made that clear. in a video, she said you're the best person to make decisions for the boys, you're the best father today these boys you arere the best husband not going to wish for So ust keep going and one of the messages she said inruly unjusting fashion, we get almost off I know that sounds a little bit. reck we just can't just get home with it, but to keep going to keep going I put my right foot in front of my left foot and find a way to navigate this tragedy for myself and for my sons Like I said, I add all the support. But I wanted to just to keep going and of course, I've been resilient all my life, but I feel this builds a new level of resilience Yeah, and I just I just found a way found a way in them early months to just was a bit of a daze, bit of a blur. Sadness was present everywhere like it' almost like L and you can't see his and podcast, but it's like wherever you tryed to look and turn The sadness was right there in front of you So But had to find the way I got counseling, I got therapy, which was amazing really helped me and I almost like built tools to try and help me get through the day. But initially, as you can imagine, I took on the role that Liamne played So I went from Leah may be taking doing eighty percent of the boys in the home and the schooling So now I have to take on this role So' almost becoming mother and father in one I was fortunate enough to have my parents both retired who live I' either way they searate, but they live close to each other and close to me come and supported Leanne's mom, who only works three days a week, she was able to come and support. So the support from the family. immediately and in being in the position I was I was able to afford to pay for a nanny who committed a certain number of hours a week, to help with the school run, help with the kids help with this and with that. So we' got like and she's close family members. So I had these four main people who came almost to the rescue and just helped Lif keep me on my feet and help the boys routines may be maintained When you cast your mind back to those dark days immediately following Leonne's passing, is there any tips or techniques you can think about that did help you T be able to keep putting one foot in front of another. It's actually one of the episodes I listened to with Mo Gaaldat. I remember you listened to it years ago whenever youf guys first released it and he said that Hit like almost like a free step process and I hope I get it right. like Is it true Is there anything you can do about it? Can you continue despite his presence? So I just use that whole The free step process that's calling it Is it true? Yes, it's true She's no longer with us. S if I can do by, absolutely nothing you can do. She's not coming backfortunately And then I have to continue despite it being there So I remember using it early on and then I got up every morning, I opened the blinds, I made my bed. I thought that's one thing done or two things done. And I tried to exercise to go outside and do something even it was just light stretching and some body exercises. I had a wat bike at home. so tried to get outside, get some fresh air, get the body moving. That helped me get through the days in terms of routine since then I've built on that and do more deliberate stuff to help me, um helped me be able to perform and do my best throughout the day whether it's work or personal know like, well, or just just moments of being still. just some breathing stuff, some breathing techniques All this stuff I feel I've learnnt this with counseseling. so I think I've always been someone who's a doer. got to get that done, get this done, get through that busy day, schedules. So it's agendas to do this, got to get this, do that, got to make this, you know, that type of person, I just realize that sometimes you can't keep doing it. you've just got youve got to be Sometimes you just got to be still, you got to just This is all stuff I've learned, especially with the trauma grief, sometometimes you got to just Just take some time out just to be still, let the subconscious do whatever it wants to do, let it bring all the crazy thoughts forward and then let them through and then you carry them with a day. So try to have a bit of a morning routine that gets me prepared to go to work at the time when I was at Totam Motzborg also just to navigate The full day when I was working and with my boys It sounds like the advice from the therapist that you worked with after Leanne passed away was almost giving you freedom to feel everything that you needed to feel notot trying to control stuff For someone whose life is about Control, control the results, control the performance, control the training It was about Letting go was it When you lose someone, initial grief is Grief from coming waves, but it hits you. if you try to fight against it or even Tse up, it just you're not going to win It's almost in them dark moments when the Anne was still here and when she passed up when the mind was The subconscious was going and okay you're going to struggle with your kids and how are you going to do that? And I just let everything play out in front of me and just accepted that this was force llying around the mood and everyone goes through stuff. Eone' got their own problems and issues. Everyone has maybe sleepless nights or they're waking up and the mind is playing tricks on them while the mind is telling them stuff I just learned to just live with what it was telling me, not believe it and get on with the day I think that process of letting what was in the subconscious come out really helped me in terms of the grief, the trauma and then able to process I needed to do that day was the the right way do you think to parent your boys at this point It's a very good question hope'm I hope it is the right way, but my job I said this at the funeral was to try and give them the best childhood possible that when they're older, they just say, dad, you're done well Thank you So that's it. So the right way than being at a center of all my decisions So all my decisions based on is that good for my boy? So me trying to become the best coach, trying to become really successful, trying to set an example to them, modeling the right behaviour, being vulnerable, speaking a lot, I think I want to I want them to see how I am and think, okay, well that that's trying hard, what that's trying to do his best for us. every reason checked in with them and asked them Okay No, haven't checked I ha't out some how I'm doing We speak a lot andamas sands are proud of me and I'mroud I'm proud of them I think you're absolutely right in that. One of the big challenges though is you're trying to do the right thing by your boys. You're trying to process your own grief Knowing the kind of person you are in the short time that I've known you, you would have also been thinking about Leanne's family and her parents and your parents and brothers and sisters and everybody else, you know trying to take care of everyone Yet at the same time sp which has been your life, which is football Do doesnn't stop Did you feel this sense of pressure that actually, like there was also this other world which is moving forwards without you that you have to go back to at some point. I I needed her I needed that, I needed that. and during this sad time there's a lot of highists So once Lne passed away courses extxtreme low, extreme sadness present every day. Brinf we had a brilli season Font players are doing Fantastically well. it scored fifty Pmier League goals between them thingsings are doing really going really well at Brentford and finish was on at the time, so we were going for it offered the England assistant coach's role. played with Anty Barry, and Anty Barry for a while and when him and Thomas Tu were appointed That opportunity arose. That was probably late December, early January. So despite the sadness of some professional highs, And then in the end of the season Ill get the opportunity to move to Tottenham with Thomas Frank So though You may think it was going on without me. I was still I was still at the pace that it was moving. I still managed to do both The resilience I built, the tools I had the support allowed me still to operate and still coach well, still be there, still be present be at every game be with a national team. national breaks and people had time off I was with the squad So I just enjoyed football, football with my you went to England and Spurs England and Brentford first. Yeah and then England and Spurse. Leam passed away at the end of twenty twenty four November November and you took the England job in Fbruary twenty twenty five. So only three months later you're suddenly. Juggling two jobs Yeah after the boys. Potcessing your own grief as well here with the support of all my family. But football football is medicine, football's what I love, football is my passion. Football's what gives me that buzz So when I'm on that pitch for an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, whatever it is, I'm totally zoned in on that win Grief hits you, it's not always, it's not sadness every single day. It's not tears every single day. You may have a good week. So I was fortun enough to work at this level, fortunate enough to work for great people who helped me fortunateough to work for great football clubs and be it' on on to work for the national team So I feel like during this s time've actually actually developed, I've actually got better and built skills tools to help me perform in skills that will be with me for the rest of my career. Could you share with us Well now Well firstly Personally is just how my morning routine sets me for the day. I think I'll try to be consistent with that for the rest of my life just by I enough having some still time. being active in the mornings and just making sure I look after myself. I think that's important looking after yourself I think the other stuff that I've built is a new level of resilience a new level of manage my emotions. And what does that feel like H. It feels like person I'm able to separate Almost what's happening? or what's happened process in. but then move quickly on in like a short space of time And in a football example it might be Yeah, ye You lose the game. down in the doldroms. How long are you down for or you up quickly think, okay, that's happened now. How do we prepare for the next game And that happened at Tottenham where the results wasn't good. We had a very, very, very good start But when things when maybe result didn't go away well, quickly think, okay, ono the next one. I to filter out the noise, how do we try and to next game How do we prepare the team for the next match I feel like them skills always had them, but they reached a new level. I mean, they have to manage emotions, manage Manage what you're going through and make sure you don't get caught up in in the noise. And is that sorry, Damie? Is that because you've been given the perspective that it's It's just a football result. in the grand scheme of things in the grand story of life It really is not that important understand that of course, you get that, but I think it's more I'm able to coping skills. I'm able to cope with be able to cope with huge loss and still operate at a high level I'm able to deal with maybe a defeat. And then maybe, okay, now weve gott to go again. So it that bit between Disappointment and going again is probably shorter for me I was like, okay, that's happen because I've had the worst thing that can happen to you And was there not a period where You literally just didn't care because I kind of feel that if I lost my wife care about hosting this show or how many people were watching it or If I was a football coach, whether we won or lost a game, I just don't think I would for shit like just what I made. Yeah, I think The first game back after Leanne. P was a tough game. I felt went up to Everton with Brentford And I sat on the I was able to go on the day. It was Eton away. I went on the train. to Liverpool And I remember just thinking, I've got nothing in me today to give the team I didn't have the energy in me Thomas was aware of that, but me just being there was was positive for the team and the players and myself. After that, I think as soon as I' got to the game, you're fully tuned into the game. you fully tuned into the your professional Pride now comes in, we want to win. you know I'm fiercely competitive. I wanted to win. I wanted to make sure that I supported the staff, supported the player, supported the manager, do whatever it takes to help the team get free points. So I think that comes into it However, at the end of the game, whether we won There wasn't like a massive high, I might not have reached the same high as others Yeah. And if we lost, I definitely didn't reach the same low as others So I was able to due to I'd been for, I was able to stay in between that. and probably the biggest where I felt it turn a bit slightly was when we qualified for the World Cup. That was the first time I was like, yes, I felt like real joy real enjoy when I was with it. Did you allow yourself to feel it? Be a lot of people who've had a or I've suffered with grief ye Al almost do They don't feel they're allowed to be happy Yeah, I just felt like that moment because I was It was just like such an amazing achievement to do what we did in qu to do what the team did in the qualification stage. And I just felt I felt that joy at that moment time. previous previous stuff I think maybe also because when' in the rhym of the Premier League is always o, well done, it' got a result. now we' got Now we' got an away gam in two days later and now we' got tough European tie, so maybe it was a bit of a hamster wheel effect Back to the first point I would say that I always care and I always will care for sure But I feel like you didn't enjoy the highs as much and he didn't go as low as much. That would be the perspective. But chang is now taught them now when when it It was a bit further down the line, you start feeling it more and it gets you, you know, so that was We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. But for those that are not aware of your story, that you have a stellar reputation within football for what you do on the field and making people better We first met when you were at Manchester United and I knew your reputation from people there and Phil Giles spoke about it. When we had him on the podcast, he was excited that you'd join the staff. Anntony Barry' spoken to me about how good you are on the field. So your reputation within your world is for what you can do and how you can make people better and I'm interested in What does this hold experience done for you in your bread and butter out there on the field and How has it enhanced here which I think it's way more driven I'm honest, I don't think it's my coaching that's changed. J think's maybe more driven It's made me want to enjoy all the moments that football brings more because I realized that it was a medicine for me but it's not changed me and such. mayaybe just the managing the emotions bit in terms of okay, I feel like I'm able to cope with with a lot of load I can can manage load, I can organise, I can prioritize And for sure made me more resilient was me resilent but I would like think I was pretty resilent before There's a lot of research that trauma leads to triumph. So many of the people that we've sat and had a conversation with a high performance at some point in their life have been through Emost unbearable trauma And a lot of the research points to the fact that it gives them an understanding and empathy of other people thathaps they perhaps didn't have before It was after this that you ended up at Tottenham. and I think that you would have been so much more attuned two. to what in fact greatreat environment looks like So what was what was going on at the time that was difficult for Thomas or that you as a collective were unable to turn around It so That is the question Um It started very well, at told it started very well I think First, it's a totally different cup to Brentford Yeah taught them It started very well and I think the schedule play every threeree days in Europe and in the Premier League a scored that. probably wasn't as robust as potentially it could be, mentally or physically. I it may be physically, right physically made it made it tricky. Ps also so Um, the previous year prerevious year they had four ably outstanding front players were very dangerous in Dominic Sanky Listen, Kurzvski And son who produce a large number of assists and goals. We didn't have them at the start of the year for injury Yes, there players that replace them in that were brought in in Jacky Simmons, Cla Moani could have and some young players in knower B and tell, but there was no real There's no real evidence that they would be as prolific as the other guys and we that was probably the biggest challenge we found like put in that Getting that offensive threat out after the first probably seven eight games, getting the best and dealing with it with the schedule. Of course, we' did everything right. over do, we was looking trying to find the right lineup, but yeah everyone does it in the beginning stages. As much as it didn't work out There's also the bit that I felt in the noise, the noise was I to bet that was the major challenge a lot of noise from the outside, a lot of noise from suppters that was a big challenge to navigate as well here talkal about that challenge and how you navigate it. Well, I just think we had to concentrate on what we could control And that was trying to get the training right, I was trying to get the game plan right. I was trying to put a team out that could win But it was a new challenge for us every three days, of course, because that wasn't the case at Brentford And that is how we just focused in Thomas was extremely hard working, the hardest working personve met in my. F football career And yeah, that was what we did every day, just tried to Navigate that the best we could. When you went into Tottenham, did you Did you tell people about your personal story? O at this point had you decided that That wasn't something that you wanted to do or needed to do. Yeah, no, I didn' I didn't tell everyone a personal story. When the year anniversary came around on november eighth, twenty twenty five Thomas just mentioned it in te meeting was I wasn't traveling with a team that day. I was going spend some time and then come a little bit later say Thomas mentioned that to the players and of course some of the players spoke to me and supported me and ye once again they were very understanding I'm also of intrigued by the offer of you joining England as one of their coaches This was Thomas Tule, right? Iommend you to offer you this job Was he aware at the time that you were grieving the loss of your wife only a couple of months before Yeah, Thomas W and John McDermot andy Barry, they all were aware. Yeah gave me lots of time to think. they wanted me to really think it through sought after advice from different people When it's your national team, when it's an opportunity to represent your country, represent the opportunity to go to a World Cup potentially at the time It wasn't something I could turn down. And of course, my boys at the center of my decision if they could say their father has been to a World Cup and supported England during the World Cup and I thought that they would be proud of that as well. So. what did they say to convince you because I can only imagine that there would have been so many conflicting thoughts in your head. I need to be here for my boys. They're still grieving. I don't know what the right decision is to make at the moment. I'm still processing what's happened It's England. but I've got to commit to Brentford. That is a tricky, tricky period for you. a psychological perspective. Yeah they they said if any time I needed a day I've had to go home from St. George's Park, if I really was struggling then they would understand that They just people I think I've been very fortunateough in the jobs I work for to work for very, very good people with human skills, people that are not just fory only focused on the result, the outcome, the tactics, they're interest in the people that work for them or work with them I think that Both Thomas Doule and I Barry They warm people in general and they said whatever you need, How we can support you, we'll be prepared. We would like you to be part of the staff and you kn of me, we played together. We had similar coaching journeys in terms of our qualifications. working in first time environments, he thought it wouldd be a good me being like part time joined up with a camp as well as working full time at Brentford at time. he said that would be a good fit for both me and for the National team And what do you feel that you could bring? coaching setup that was different or unique I feel like I could bring something a bit different el like I was currently working in the Premier League. they'd come from from Germany, both working out And I felt like I've got insights into a lot of the players, I worked with a lot of the youth players as well. That was one of the things that was important for Anthony said I've worked in England, you set up for three years I knew quite a lot of the players. I had relationss with some of the players in the national team. felt like I've got I have a good understanding of of the dynamics, so I could work with Antney, Annty would be comfortable working with me and me and them working together working with Thomas andew John McDermott from previously being at Tottenham. understood the way the FA works, it was almost like a good blend of characters' personalities and the experiences I've had. So would you describe the process then of how when it comes to the England team Maybe Thomas sets a intention of this is how I want to play. How does that process work then from Thomas declaring it to you and Anthony and John and the other coaches translating it into into action Yeah I think it's more He translates it to the coaches and translates it to the players suppuppliers are clear of what an England performance looks like, what identity wants to be like how we want to be How we want to play, how we want to attack, how we want to defend, we've got some clear principles, clear ideas that we've tried to build out throughout the camps and the qualification phase that hopefully we can take into the World Cup and That's been fascinating for me because tactically, tactical brain Unbelievable. the manager, his level of detail in all the phases of the game is is incredible. What like would you just pause out and sort of explain to those of us that but not in that dressing room. What do you mean by that But in every phase of the game whether it be building up, maybe attacking Fending height Fend in the middle of pitch de defnd in low the level of detail players, what's expected is very high very high level of detail but delivered in such a personal manner That's easy to digest for the players So he has a high level of football understanding and football knowledge, of course won so many trophies but also that personal nature, very warm, very open, outstanding, communicator, outstanding person being able to that mixture of both What they know to deliver what they know, I just think it makes them one of the best. What moment have you seen from Thomas Tuer where you thought That is a very cool bit of football management which I had't thought. No, not it's not like that. I think it's just I think more of them as a person is so impressive is more the personal thing because He's an impressive person. He's very warm, he's very open. he's been brilliant for me. He's supported me in moments when he's probably seen I need a little bit of support. He texts me at different times. It's just his human skills stand out for me course astic winner trophies are Sim he's been at s Well that's what makes me excited about this touright. He's not the only impressive man in the room, right? You know, when you were at Spurs and things were difficult towards the end of Thomas Franks time. What were you able to do for Thomas Frank to Help him in those moments, do you think I just I always was supporting. so supporting first to person And then coming up with some potential solutions, I just felt like, okay Should try this? Should we do that? And the staff were great all the staff at Totam was trying to look for ways to get more out of the players. We change the system, we tried different things. we was always just looking for solutions Thomas was at the forefront of that Every day we look for, okay, how how do we make this team better? how do we perform better than the previous game So it's just that support as a number too You're always trying to look at ways of of supporting the manager, supporting his ideas, supporting the game plan, supporting the players, helping the players develop to get results on the weekend or week or midwek. And with the perspective that life's given you in the last couple of years when it did end at Surs, how quickly were you able to flip that switch while I was gutted first and foremost tough period to felt like if we could have It' like the od goal is every game is the odd goal is two ones three two one nals. There was never any there was never any real devastating results towards the end in Europe, we've done fantastic U So yeah, of course you gutted, you gutted but You just okay, now I had to think what comes next? I'll keep going. I've still got the England and England come to look forward in March So what the sumits look forward to and an opportunity maybe to spend a bit more time with my boy, so to look at the positives, but still up to today you miss being in that day to today. was delighted when the team won. Sunday. So you're watching you're thinking, go on, go on go on you want them to be successful you want them to do well. Well, listen, you're on the verge of a big period in football. I'll ask you how you assess that the vibe or the feel in a team vibes scale. you always need to get the vibe right I think's li scale I think sometimes you got to feel what how things feel. I think there's lots of dayat in football, lots of measurements, lots of metrics that people search for, but you want to get the viber right, especially going to a tournent where you're going to live together for six or seven weeks, hopefully You got to make sure that people feel comfortable, peoplee feel there's energy. It's not too serious serious,s always serious, but it's not too. suffocating. your players need to feel free, they need to be able to be themselves. So How do you make sure you get the vibrant? I think that's important in any environment How's the vibe? Yeah, it's exciting, it's exciting times I'm sure the players are excited but there's a few weeks to happen in in Yeah in the Premier League FA Cup the European competitions So we'll see what pans out then and then hopefully then it'll be all set ready to go to the US. And are you sat in the selection meeting for the final squad? you to know you want to know, didn't you? I don't know I was in it. I'd like to know what what's the criteria for selecting players because we assume it's about picking to twenty six best players 's I think it's just a team. I think the team is what's going to be successful so There's so many Claz. So many good players, so many players to choose from tricky making the final decisions but ult to be the manager We'll look at the construction of a squad and then make the decisions based on what he feels is best But beyond the talent that will'll take as a given that there could even be in that conversation if you could describe certain characteristics of players that are going to make up that squad. What are the Three behaviors that are going to be consistent. Of course you have the talent to play and be effective in your position. you got to be a good teammate and you maybe need to have a super strength. so if you're not going to be a major starter Are you someone who can offer something off the bench? Are you someone that can offer someone in have you got a specialist in penalty takaking? So are you brilliant on set pieces? So there's probably different phases of the game where someone can offer something because all twenty six are not going to play minute so you need to make sure that everyone there can be a good teammate predominantly in then it offer something to the squadron when called upon And we're obviously excited for the World Cup this summer But I think more than that All of us are delighted that someone like you who's been through such a challenging eighteen months has gotten the opportunity not just to Do something over the summer that gives you an escape, but also an opportunity to take your boys out to the United States, let them come and watch some international football How are you and your boys doing now? Yeah, we were doing Do doing okay, We have some ups, ups and downs in terms of feelings but we're learning how to navigate them More so now, we talk a lot talk about the an a lot But we're doing okay Remember Rum Obviously I was working with Rio when he sadly lost his wife, Rebecca. and You know, he He was so creative in the things that he did, you know, they had a room where you could go in and it was full of photos of Rebecca, or there was a jar, you could write down your memories or your thoughts and put them in the jar And I know that there willll be people that we willll see that this is the conversation we're having today. and they will come to this conversation because they too I'll going through a grief journey. orr they too have something on the horizon that they're scared about. What advice would you like to give people who are either in this or fear they're about to go into this I think it' be kind to yourself. you got to look after yourself, you got to do something for yourself each day, whatever that might just be Getting out in the open air, getting some fresh air going for walks on support not say that. You can do your best in the scenario that you're in do your best each day so Some days different to other days. you can't be perfect every day, but I feel like doing something of yourself every day is important. Getting out and being a little bit active want to be a walk exercise potentially, but most importantly, I'd say you need to talk. you need Speak about how you're feeling find someone that it might be someone that you don't know, you might have to called a help line. you have you need to speak. I you need in speaking, you can let out and you can it helps with the processing What would Leanna What would down think of how how well you've coped? I think she should be proud I don't think she'd be too surprised. I think she would know that I would find a way to keep going and do what's best for the children. So I think she'd just be proud. Yeah. And let's also remember that before she passed away, she gave you the strength to do this as well. Exactly I get the impression that you're not parenting on your own No, I've got a I've got It's brilliant support network around me. I'm very fortunate because some people don't have that and I'm aware of that too. Right then. time to finish with our quick fire questions What are your three Non negotiable behaviors So I think free thingsings that I value and that I live my life is I think we needs to keep going Whatever you face, you need to find a way to keep going. U, second one would be Respond well So whatever happens to you Sall things say to my son, you need to respond well, be measured, think about it, tryry better to respond well and help others They're the three things that I'd like to think that I prioritize and Expected my children too What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why Yeah, so my wife here and she had she had a saying that she said to me that little think alwaysways thinkink back on and she said, you need Someone to love somethingomet to do and something to look forward to. And there'd be times where I'd be having a bit of a lull Anhing c realize I've maybe got something to look forward to at the moment and then maybe do something with my friends, my close friends or wed book a holiday I think that's something that I live by as well What is your biggest strength I think my biggest strength over my prorofessional careard say is the ability to learn, I think I'm good at absorbing information, listen to other people speak, reading stuff, absorbing information from coaches and probably applying it in my context. I'd probably describe myself as a good learner Whatatch biggest weakness switching off. to think about that when I was planning this stuff was thinking ye, I'm not very good at switching off Dame, I need to get better at switching off and being still. What advice Would you give to a teenage you Um I'd say just Enjoy the present moment Have fun ennjoy enjoy being young, but also learn anything you can from anyone you can as well. like be Be even a learner at a younger age, I probably started learning how to learn when I was Early thirties And the final question was sure Golden rule for everyone wanting to live a high performance life Yeah I've thought about suppos to listen to show or listen to show over the years. I think how I wouldll describe that is I think the high performance is like that willingness to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done with effort, discipline and consistency, and actually thinkink of a person. When I thought about this and someone I work with at Brentford is a kid called Josh Hillio who's worked in the kit department. I'll describe him as a high performer because we prepare the training And it'd come up. And he'd way outside the office for me and Kevin O'Conor and he'd be like What do you need guys? And every day he'd be will he to come and put the mannein exactly where you wanted, put the goal. Mini goals on the pitch too. he'd put the markers down. If the markers had anyess on it'd clean it, the balls were pumped perfectly, the balls were such a level of detail to what he did and I felt. we did it winingly. wind rain or shine, freezing cold who'd come up willingly, get the balls ready, get the equipment ready, get the tape out, get the flat this ready And they did it. with effort discipline and consistencies when I've thought about this I Josh Hilly reminded me, He's a high performer. I love that. Listen, thank you so much. Thank you. final question, how is it in the world that you're in even in twenty twenty six, after everything you've been through to be Coach at the top level of the game and still be vulnerable like this. Yeah, it is It is me, so I won't always be myself, so I'll tell the truth and I don't see a lot of a lot of you see Bravado quite a bit. But the more people you speak to people and you realize that there are a lot of people who are vulnerable, a lot of people who are open in football and who speak because The well being of players now' really important with social media, with what they go through that I think people need to be vulnerable. We need to be supportive, peopleople they have open environments to help players what they're going through and be at their best. And listen, I know that that we fear about what does what happen to Leanne do to our children You know, we've spoken so many people on this show who I've only sat here because they went through a trauma at a young age There is so much evidence that That can light a fire in someone that people who haven't been through a trauma can never really relate to it. Nobody would wish that on your children to have lost their mum. But it certainly doesn't write their story for the rest of their lives and and they I'm very sure with you as a dad they're going to go on to a some amazing stuff. Thank you, Jay. I hope so too. top Mat. Thank you, M. Thank you Damian, Je. That is a man who as we heard in that conversation as a really deep understanding of the things that actually matter in life And I wonder whether One thing we can all take away from that conversation is the things that we think are important are so often not the things that are actually important. And if we all have the opportunity to finish this conversation or watch this episode and go and hug our partner or kids or parents, we should make sure that we do that. because Y life is fragile and precious and Sometimes it's a conversation like that is important to remind us of what really matters in life. Yeah ye likeike when I was listen to Justin, I was That Carlo Angelosi quote that foootball is the most important or the least important things in life came to mind because he's a man that's Working in an industry that many people are passionate about, but the reality is When you step away from it? is a father and is a grieving husband at the moment in time I thought it was raw. it was very real and I really commend him for being prepared to make himself So open and candid I'm also pleased to hear that Oh which often has a reputation for being cold and calculated de and cutthroat is a world where If you're a coach at Brentford and you have a personal tragedy, the club puts its arm around you Christian Ngard reaches out, the manager protects you It' still an industry where Thomas Tuchle, the England cooach under big pressure trying to build his team for the first major tournament We willll still reach out to someone who is in a really difficult person that place says you take all the time you need. We still want you part of this team. I think I feel I feel good about the world of football for having heard that conversation. Yeah, yeah, that's very true. I think How many people have told us over the years I've been talking to them, like whatever your industry and it's a people business best cultures put people first and I think There's no surprise to her that when Justin went through such a horrible time The ones that you would admire, the ones that you would expect were the ones that Dmonstrated, stress tested peopleeople always come first in their world lesson for that that hopefully we don't have to go through such horrible experiences as Just in. experience, but We can all recognize that when somebody is having a hard time, somebody's having a tough day Somebody's just had a bit of difficult feedback, Be the one that just goes and gives him that little bit of humanity. And over the next few weeks we're going to get glimpses and see shots of just in, you know, taking training on the pitch before games or on the onn the bench with the England players, hopefully leaping in the air when England victoriously lift the world upu. But even that is a reminder for people that spot him and see him having heard this conversation that you now know his story, right But there are Thousands of people walking around with stories that we don't know And we have to remember that everyone is carrying a weight that is unseen. and full credit to Justin for sharing his story to help other people on here. But let's all just live with that reminder that Everyone's carrying something Yeah Thank Bill. Thank you. No problem at all. Look, if you've been affected by anything that you heard in that conversation with Justin, please make sure that you hit the show notes down below for some advice and some help. And thank you so much for listening to the conversation. As always, you can watch as well as listen on Apple podcasts, You can check us out on YouTube, or you can listen to H pererformance wherever you get your podcasts