Final Thoughts on Consistency and Standards

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You're not buying impressions You're buying influence Learn more by visiting aast d. com slash advertise Hell everyone, welcome along to another episode of High Performance. I'm here alongside Damian How are you? I'm very good Jake, you. Very I mean just looking at how any people in the room. Is there five of us in here or four Oh is there five There's five of us in this little tiny studio recording this Wednesday episode of High Performance. There aren't many of us, but I think we should start with a round of applause. What do you think? Absolutely ye. A round of applause. Oh yeah, there five It's so dark at the far end. I could only see four people in here. That round of applause was for a man who never dropped his standards, James Milner, twenty four years at the top six hundred and fifty eight Premer League apparanceces the all time record. 've the Chions League, got three preremi League titles that we thow the word legend around easily these days, Damiian. But for a man who was a former guest on our show and we're going to delve into his episode and pick out a couple of lessons from him. Legend almost doesn't feel like enough for James Milner You know, there's that lovely saying in there that if you're good, you'll get it, but if you're consistent, you'll keep it. And I think When you've set records like what you've just shared with them is onsistency, the non sexy stuff, the stuff that happens in the shadows that defines why he is Oh why he deserves that title to of being a legend. We speak so often about consistency on these episodes and people are at the sharp end. revere consistency. and he's a man that's just role modeled it Wh should we get straight into hearing from him? That's definitely do that. So James Mooon and I joined us. It's probably a couple of years ago, isn't it? Well, how long do you reckon? O two overver two years s to joined us. And I remember all of us saying at the time. What if he announces his retirement on the episode? you remember? Yeah. But here we are more than two years later and finally he gets aroundound to deciding that But you know what I remember about that? It turned up an hour early because lateness isn't the standard that he accepts. You know, he sat in the green room, he chatted to Remember, we had Phil in there, one of our listeners that came in that day and he sat with Phil, he was engaged in his story as well as answering questions that Phil was exploring with him This was a bloke that just role modeled it. even things I wente, nobody was watching. He was still living up to the standards that have become the hallmark of his career. and O obviously we're not going to name them, but there are sometimes guests who come in and give us an amazing episode of highigh pererformance And when they walk away, we both look at each other I think I don't really like them very much. Yeah. Because what you see behind the scenes, what you see in the quiet moments with some of the production team or with someone that drove them in or the person that made them a coffee is very different. to the things they tell us on our episodes and James Miller does not fall into that category. He absolutely you're totally right, Rle modeled all the things he spoke to us about. But I want to start this conversation by rewinding right back to when he was a young kid cleaning boots coming through at the Leeds Academy Dad told him He wasn't gonna make it. Should we hear from him first Let's for about it Here he is, James Milner talking about the early days when he was at Leeds My dad was very good at knowing how to get the best out of me, so he always used to say You know, you're not going to make it. You don't work hard enough and little things like that. and he knew that I had the personality that All right, I'm going to prove you're wrong. And he knew that he wasn't being horrible I always said it or anything like that, but he knew that I'd be like, all right, I'll show you And I think that's probably where it started Now this is very interesting. It reminds me a bit of Robin Vampery when he said to his son, You want to be a loser, be a loser. And he kind of laid down the gauntlet to his boy Let's talk about this sort of deliberate provocation then as parents or maybe as coaches as well the former Manester United, headad of the Academy told us they kind of they stretch the players, then they reward. they stretch and then they reward There's something very interesting in here about challenging people at an early age, but at the right time. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I get so many messages like know you do jake from people that pareants of young kids that they're asking the questions over Do I engage them? How do I drive them, but without being pushy or going overboard? And I think James's example here of the way that his dad dealt with him is a great example of that any of us that are working with young people can learn from So again, we often cite DC and Ryan, Edward, DC and Richard Ryan for this. They're the They're almost the godfathers of what we know today as modern day motivation, where they prove to us that it burns for longer and far brighter when people own it. So external rewards are like having a shot of coffee. it can pick you up and give you an immediate incentive the motivation that burns longest is what's internal or intrinsic and there's three pillars to it One, having a sense of ownership, O is the sense of mastery of wanting to get into the detail of it and then the third one is doing it with a sense of purpose. So what James's dad seems to have done there is He wasn't motivating him by shouting at him louder gettinget him to take ownership his career and the challenges he was doing. So that's really important because he wasn't creating a sense of dependence on him He was getting his son to sense He was in control. He had high levels of agency I'll show this. I own this. I'm good enough. Devil James and taking ownership and that was what his dad was nurturing in him and it's like the hallmark of all great coaches that They might see that spark of fire, but great coaches protect and nurture that fire and get you to sort of make it burn bright test So we both have kids that have played or do play football, you know, Sebss a lot younger than Georie's only ten. and any he had a football competition this weekend. Heartbreaking semifinal defeat one Nil I saw a lot of parents shouting at their kids during the game just like Come on, wake up Stop being useless. Get involved in the game. You know, these things that I know that if you play them back to those parents, almost hang their head in shame right I'd be a little bit embarrassed But there's very little value in yelling at your kid during a game get more involved or work a bit harder What I really like about what Jamesb's dad did to him was that he never said to him what he needed to do. He just said I just don't think you're going to make it. I just don't think that you work hard enough. And as the point you just made, his dad wasn't owning this thing, going, I'll show you work what hard work is You're yelling to his son, did it? He just went, I don't think you have got it And there's something about when someone almost isn't angry with you but he's actually a bit disappointed in you.. That lighted something, I think that his dad understood I you know, I think he knows this, James. and I think if we look at this now This wasn't as James said, his dad being horrible. I think he knew exactly what he was doing at that point, didn't he, hisad Definitely. Testing him Yeah, I mean there's a psychologist on this called Roy Baumminster that talks about the most effective way if you're going to challenge somebody, challenge them on effort and not on and not on talalent So what it means is like so because you have some degree of agency over the effort you put in, how focused you are, how hard you try. So be be better at why you're not good enough should be work harder or why're not why you're not trying harder? Yeah, but again, think of another guest,hane Parrish. You're not positioning yourself to give your best. So so When Jhane told us about his son and he some, Ill tryed my best in the exam. He went, No, you tried your best in the hour of that exam But you didn't try your best two days before on when you didn't go to bed early enough, you didn't try your best three days earlier when you didn't do the revision that you needed to do. So positioning yourself and Challenging people on the effort bit that you have some degree of autonomy and control over is far more effective than challenging them on their level of talent. And if you listen to what James his dad was challenging him on there, It was on, the bits that you could control, the effort, the investment of time, training a sense of purpose. So if his dad was an early role model, What happened at Leeds was also absolutely vital. Should we have a listen to a clip where James talks about And people like you and me are these old boys, we lament the fact that a lot of this stuff has gone now from the game. There aren't young kids cleaning boots of the senior pros and learning on the job James absolutely did that, and I think it's a good place Ustand a bit more about where the work ethic came from Yeah, but it sounds like a bygone era There's an awful lot of wisdom that's contained within that era We had a group of players who'd done very well at Leeds and you know, our Champions League semifinal successful players, great personalities someome lads who took me under the wing and looked after me, kept me away from the media, dy after games I'm my sure I didn't have to do that. And and little things like that and it gave you time to be yourself, but it was At that time, keep your mouth shut. I didn't want to stand out off the field. I wanted to keep my head down, speak when spoken, I do my job, don't attract attention in that way, but as soon as you get on the pitch, that's when you want to attract attention, do your job, impress people, try and be the best player and show people you deserve to be there but off the field ve been noticed, show respect to the guys, keep your head down, not You know get bantered for your gear or whatever it is, you know, you don't want to do anything to stand out or the car you're driving or anything like that. justust be under the radar and you know, hopefully and getting people's minds when you're on the football field. I feel lucky that I played in the old school, if you like and then come through to now. I've had an experience of both and you know, the standards like make sure everything's done, you know, the basic stuff cleaning boots and it's you know, picking gear up off the dressing room floor even when I was playing in the first team at Leeds after the games, you know, I'd scored goals. I was helping the kitman until he gave me the nod and you feel a million dollars, you feel like you're earning the right to be part of this first team. you know, I'm sixteen years old. I've been in the academy We had we got allocated players and because I was a first year scholar had under eighteen boots to clean. I had a reszzie player and a first team player and I'm playing in the first team and I carried on cleaning the under eighteen capaptain's boots because You know, you have to earn your right. He's still older them even though I'm playing in the first team and And I think that's something that doesn't happen now and Young players are very lucky that, you know, they' treated like professionals from nine ten years of age and that's brilliant. but I also think the values I learn from earning the right to be in that dressro room by doing the horrible jobs that doing the skips after the game and things like that when the kitman turns around to you and says Go and get on the bus. You fell out Not Medded, but you know, I'm part of the team now and one of these guys have earned that right in it makes you're hungrier to to push on again I love that clip because it captures beautifully the whole earned status versus assume status. You know, like think of it like this, Jake that Assume status is the title on the door, but earn status is where the people actually listen when you enter the room and James seems to understand that respect is something that you build, it's not something that just comes by being part of that dressing room to this a piece of research by Mike Norton and it's called the IKEA effect. and The learning is that we' place greater value on things that we've helped build. So like a flat pack wardrobe that you've assembled feels far more like yours and that you feel ownership of it than one that just arrives that's fully formed. Norton found that this was true across everything that we create G got me thinking about whether dressing rooms are similar to that as well, that When James Milner was cleaning boots and emptying sks like he just described, that wasn't humiliating like the lens we often put over it. was he was building something where it was like an ownership of that environment. It was contributing to it even in a small way the suns this place partartly mine, I've earned a place here. So I wonder whether sometimes like jobs that look menial from the outside psychologically are actually enormous because they're teaching him something that No welcome speech can ever make, no sense of Um, Like no having your peg in the dressing room can necessarily off you. It's a sense that This place matters, but I do as well because I've earned might right to be here. That's interesting. I wonder whether this is something that we've lost slightly. I think back to when I first started in television I spent the first year of my career whilst redoing my a level exams, earning five quid a weekend for making tea, operating O Tokyu, being a sound assistant, moving sets around. every menial job you can do in broadcasting I did.. That then meant when I actually got a job in broadcasting. full understanding of what everyone was doing. So whence someone would say like o there's a lot for the soundman to be thinking about on today's show because weve got loads guests I'm like yo, I remember Micking up five people really quickly to put them onto live television a few years ago. Yeah And I worry that I don't want to denigate young people in this, but offtten what I see is a desire to rush to the place that you want to be Yeah rather than giving true value Tw period that feels like you're at the bottom of the rung And I think this feeling that if you're on the bottom of the rung on the ladder Like you're not learning what happens at the top of the ladder Yeah. But that's actually not true because you're spending time seeing what the people at the top of the ladder are doing and you work out to get therereember me interviewed like Russell Cane And he said people come up to him and go Oh, how can I be on the undercart of one of your comedy gigs, pase? And he's like, Well, you do the work You don't walk up to someone with a six pack in the gym and say, how do I get a six pack like that? Because you know the answer is you do crunches, you eat well and you exercise what you have to in life, do your crunches eat well and exercise to get your awwards. You can't just go straight there because I also think when you do go straight there then you then you don't have, as James Milnner was talking about here, you don't get the the thrill of that reward of like, I've earned a right be here and I think we have to We have to return to an era where earning the right is something that is actually earned rather than just something that is expected. Absolutely. I mean, think of again, another of our previous guests, Lando Norris talking about You know, he's the son of a very wealthy man and He was going into the garbages McLaren, he was sort of working The engineers there was helping them shift boxes, move tres around and He said, Well, what would it rather be doing? I could go back somew roere and play Playsttation, but I saw that as an investment that the relationships of people that might one day have to serve me that one day might have to help me. I'm investing in it so they know that I've earned my right to be there. I think there's something really powerful about that kind of earned status rather than assumed. And that's what I love about James Milman's messages. And of course, by the time he got to Liverpool He had the earned status But what I also like about this is that when he got to Liverpool, having earned the right to be a leader in that Liverpool dressing room, you know, a leader at one of the biggest clubs in the world That wasn't the moment to rest on his laurels. You know, he was the guy. You remember Pepp Linders saying that James would stand by the clock on the entrance to the training ground and anyone that arrived later than they should have done. He's like he's the one pointing at the clock and Tin Axander Rnold saying he felt he had to pass James Milman's test to be accepted Yeah. Should we hear him talk about it? How do you go about setting standards So we understand about timekeeping, we understand about Um, win the right things off the field, but how do you go about setting them I think everyone's different and everybody does it in different ways. I think peopleeople who are vocal, you have people who lead by example. I think if you can do both then that's the ideal I think First thing is setting by example. I think like if you're not doing everything right, it's very hard to pull. someomeone else up for being lightate if you're l all the time and lightate's a simple thing, but it's a respect thing. likeike if you're you think I'm thirteen seconds late a minute late for me and two minutes late, well Everybody else in that room is sat there waiting for you. so why should that happen And people don't see it like that, but If we're a team and we have mutual respect, we're all there on time, and it's a bit of fun. We we always had fun with the finds and things like this, but this was our standards. And if you can't be on time for a meeting or traraining when it's the most important thing you have to do that day as a football, you're training, if you can't be on time, little things like that Th when we're on a field and everything's moving at a million miles an hour and we've got a set piece and we've got a man off injured and we need to reorganize. if you can't be organized enough to turn up to a meeting on time How are you going to be able to do that in the heat of battle? And I think it all feeds in to little things like that I think the other thing is as well As you get older you notice everything or I always had this thing where you notice little things is someone like is someone not going in the gym and Why is that? is there a reason for that How can you approach that? Is it someone who needs a rocket? Is it someone who needs an arm round them? Is it someone who needs an encouragement I think that's something that I've learned as a old E start thinking of the game a bit more like that. I think that was an important role that the manager has so much to worry about in terms of preparing the team media every two days, you know, before after all this sort of stuff and things like that. He doesn't need to worry about the dressing room and his senior players. I think that was always important that You run the dressing room and any problems within that, it's stopped before it becomes an issue with the manager, whether that's people not doing what they should, not doing the right things on the days off, not training hard enough. That's down players to nip her in the bud before it becomes a problem to the manager We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners Keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're ACast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast d. com slash advertise I think what's interesting there is that they managed to bring a bit of fun into setting the standards. And I think that you know we sometimes feel that if you're going to set the standards, then you have to do it through kind of rules and being strict and being aggressive and being hard. but I actually liked it there when he said we always had fun with the finds, but it was also setting our standards. Yeah. And I mean, there's a couple of lines out that he used where He talks about The language was precise. He said, this was our standards. Notice he doesn't say that's the manager' standards or That's not the club's rules. He's owning it. And That comes back to that lovely phrase about nothing you do is neutral, rolling your eyes Isn't neutral? Turning up late isn't a neutral act It's about sending a signal of what really matters here and But James Understanding intuitively is the idea of social contagion that Behaviors that are accepted that nobody challenges almost become contagious within that environment. So if you see somebody turn up late and seems to get away with it It then blurs the lines of, well, am I expected to be here on time? What's the consequences of notght? So James is reinforcing positive behavis and we get here early because it shows that this place matters and it shows that we've got respect for each other's time I think there's something really powerful about way that he upheld that I remember as well when we spoke to Riar Ferdand and he said players would come in the man United dressing room and celebrate a win And they would be the ones saying, No, no, no, we celebrate trophies and titles. We don't celebrate victories in this dressing room And you know our question was how did Sir Alex Fergon uphold the level of standard and he said He didn't. We did. The players did it. and that's really what he's talking about here. And can I play another clip, actually about Joel Mattip? when Joel hadn't been around that long, but He got involved in the fine system and it kind of allowed the players to understand who he was a little bit Yeah. H is No, I think it's something we worked on and it's tough with him out at games, but you try and do those the social things together and Um you know, things as a group, things with families as well and get the girls involved. So I think We tried to fit those in and early on and we had a couple of trips in the January and we went to Dubai as a team and little things like that and we had a team picture on a boat and it was up in the dressing room and those memories and things like that. And I think that helped players settle. It was pretty early on in Virgil's career actually. I think first two weeks at the club and we went there tri like that it's like pre season when you're away together for a week, you feel like you've been there a lot longer than you actually have because you're in together. so I think you have to work at it and it's important. Those relationships are key and Early on and as well in that group we had the fines and we had a court case and we had a big inflatable dice and you had to roll it and things like. How did that work out? So we had we We randomly drew who was the jury that day. And I'd basically be running the court and arguing why someone should be fined and the jury decide and someone' argue the case if they shouldn't be fined or not. And what sort of misdeanors are we talking? Well if they were late, but they had a reason or flip flops in the gym and there's a reason I had to do this and someone was arguing. And you always got the people who you argued nonstop It was quite fun actually because Jo Mattip's like one of the funniest guys now and he was in there and he I don't think he'd really said too much of that to point and And he was on the jury and it was like, right, what do you think? He was like, Yeahah, double, pay double and he' like and it people's personalities came out straight away and it was It was a good togetherness thing and people. I think that these little things just create that that that dressing room and enjoying other people's pain, I think What was the roll of the dice So the dice was you could either pay fine or you had different things. So one to be a double double payment. One would get off with it, one to be a forfeit. So I remember Remember I think it's Bobby Finia was on a Swiss ball trying to balance, trying to throw a tennis ball into a foam roller. and he had three attempts and if he got it and he didn't have to pay like little things like that No, dididak. yeah, little things like that. So I think all those things helps When you think about the journey now, help the group become the group You see, I think that's really interesting because I think This idea of having a a court for fining people from making mistakes and turning up late or being the worst trainer or whatever I think sometimes it's easy to just dismiss that or denigrate that as like old school football stuff But I think that misses the point that doing these things is kind of like a cool culture building moment because these people are not going to live a life like us. They're going to share the the heaviest burden under the greatest scrutiny A stadium of sixty thousand people and an entire city, sometimes an entire country on their shoulders So they have a huge amount of daily pressure and the stakes are massive So anywhere where you can inject a bit of lightness, but also still use it to uphold standards I can see why this has started in football a long time ago and still remains relevant today in a game that P now probably changed beyond all recognition. Yeah. so like anthropologists like Margaret Meade or Paul Eckart often talk about like rituals matter really enormously for as a species because they create a sense of belonging, it's a shared language and also like a memory. Teams don't bond with each other because somebody comes along and says you guys need to trust each other bond with each other through sort of repeated shared experiences that part of their story. Like Do you remember James talking to us about When they went to Dubai and they took a picture of all the team, all the squad on that boat and that was what they had up in the dressing room because it was like she had an experience of this is a brotherhood. We protect the Brotherhood butook to get to be a member of it You need to sign up to the same behaviourors, the same standards, the same language that the rest of us are doing. So His story about how Joe Mattick was integrated into that brotherhood is a really good example of Wh Liverpool was successful for the period that James was there. There's talk a bit as well about Manchester City, right? Be I think what's interesting about his time at Manchester City was that he was mister versatile actually That cost him, didn't it? Because there was moments, big moments, big finals where he wasn't the specialist, so the specialist played, but James Milnerers professionalism and versatility is the reason City made it through to that moment anyway. and he kind of He developed this reputation as doing the unglamorous stuff, but like the hard yards were his And I think it would have been such an easy option for him to focus on one position and make it his own But actually he knew his real value to the team. was being flexible And it's to his credit that in some ways that cost him. And I love the fact that he didn't change. should we hear him talk about it? Yeah I do believe that if I was like at times, I would have maybe played more, but then on the flip side my versatility at times and my career has probably got me games where maybe I wouldn't have played at times as well because I could play different. positions and do things in games. So this flip side, I I've no doubt that it probably has cost me, but I would never change it. I don't think it is the right way. It doesn't There's a right way to be and and conduct yourself and Um Yeah, I don't think I mean, that would ultimately mean I'm affecting my teammates if I'm sking in training, kicking off and things like that. Um And it is a team sport. so the team always comes first regardless of anything else P thatuss also you p betraying yourself, I think what of the standout themes of this conversation is Whatever happens around you, huge success, difficult times, toxic dressing rooms, great dressing rooms but you stayed true to yourself Yeah, I think that that's important. I think U the same of any team, but any individual, I suppose you have your values and what drives you and what pushes you and U You you have to You wouldn't want to change from that. I think that's you are who you are and you have your beliefs and I suppose if you change them then For me, that's not the right thing to do. I think obviously if you're going down the wrong path then you have to change those. But I suppose if you believe it's the right way to be and you're fully invested in that, why would you change the way you are I mean, this probably is the standout characteristic that I took away from I chat with James Miller that 'use real costs are being consistent when been inconsistent had actually been more rewarding for him. So he knew that he was He knew what he was going to be sacrificing, but He's still sacrificed to anyway. There's that old saying that principleal only acts to be able counts when it costs you money And I think This is a really good example where this cost James' prestigious appearances and yet he was still prepared to do it Many people adjust their behavior to fit into the environment they're in, but I think the real power of James Milner is that He spent twenty four years asking How do they mysel regardless the environment ofen And I think that is what makes him such a special individual And I think it's totally understandable that people might listen to this conversation and think twenty four seasons in the Premier League being wedded to structure. almost seven hundred appearances more than anyone else All the success being lauded, you know, he's forty years old and he's walking away from football sureurely he's going to struggle. and look, None of us consider him and say that he won't struggle when he doesn't have the structure or he doesn't have the winning and losing moments in his life But actually, toowwards the end of our conversation when we spoke to him about regret and he gave us the answer we're about to hear. I think this is the nicest moment because There's always a fear when an elite athlete finally stops doing what they're doing. and I always fear for them physically and mentally. But actually what James said P us both at ease H way we said Rerets No, not one. notot one. I think that's That's something I don't really do. I think I analyze everything, think about decisions in the right way and pull the trigger and that's my decision and I' fully one hundred percent commit to it. And if it is a mistake, well, how can I make it better? or we've chosen this path, That's it like it's pointless regretting regret and like what what you've done I think it's important and I think it's great that he He's not got to this point and had any regrets I don't know. how he will cope in retirement because structure was obviously such a big part of his life, but so was holding himself to the highest standards don't know how he knows any longer if he is holding himself to the highestards because he can't measure himself every Saturday with a one point three points or no points, can he? Yeah, yeah, but I also think that what gives me real optimism that he's somebody that willll thrive in post playing career life is The fact that He also seems quite a rounded individual. Do you know what mean? Like he had pllenty of other of interest be told us about he was teaching his children to speak Spanish You know, he was a guy that was fascinated in other the sports who spoke to him about his involvement in golf You know, he was a that had his foundation that was gave him a sense of perspective of how to make a difference to those less fortunate than him I think he's a man with a really keen sense of perserspective. he appreciates how hard his works, but also how lucky he's been to be in that world. Absolutely. And congratulations, James on a brilliant career from everyone here at highigh pererformance. I tell you what we should definitely try and see if you'll come join us again and talk about life after retirement and reflect on the final few seasons, that'd be cool. James if you're listening, we'd love to h. Indeed we would. We've got some lovely reaction to the episode of Niica Rossberg. H I mean Yeahah, he only went live on Monday, a couple of days ago and already, I mean, hundreds of thousands of people have enjoyed the episode Jose Carmen said, What an amazing interview to watch. I understand the psychological struggle Nico had to overcome in order to be the worldld Champion. I've always been a Lewis fan and at the time, I thought I understood why Nico decided to retire, but hearing him explain it in his own words made me realise there was so much more behind the decision. Congratulations on this incredible interview. and congratulations to Nigo for the dedication, sacrifice and mental strength it took to achieve his dream. L obviously I used to host Formula One, I spent a lot of time with Nico. I'd met him many times. You'd never met him before What did you think of the conversation? Re blown away by it. I His self awareness was stunning The way that he was willing to be candid and talk about what he was good at, but equally where he struggled was really revelatory. but The bit that stood out for me was his willingness to tell us about in seeking the help and support of a philosopher. I knew that was what would get. honestly. How brilliant is that that this was a guy that wanted to understand the origins of emotions like anger and envy and jealousy. Not just say how do I stop feeling them because I don't like it, but how do I actually learn to understand them so if I can If I can label them, I can articulate them and if I can do that, I've got some Greater degree of control over it. We also filmed it in the harbor at Monaco And obviously it's slightly different to Norwich and Manchester. Late how good was that pasta that you had afterwards? Was it pasto pesto Ling pasta Yeah We sat there one way and we were thinking Yeah, we can get used to this very qu, we can afford it I loved it you are. And then the best thing came you went, Is that the pestol and Guini? Do you remember? She's like, yes, that's what it is. And I had some chicken And then Will and the team came downstairs and proceeded to eat all my chicken. But that was you being a team player. Can I ask I'm still. The other bit that I've told people about when I'vecountered the Nico conversation was Michael Schumachher's Mind Games What was your take on that? Yeah, I mean, I knew that Suppose like I knew that Michael was ruthless And I knew that he had a real will to win But I think even I hadn't really considered that that would extend to Like mentally breaking down your teammates because I suppose For a long time, it was of Rubens's Barrellllo and it just worked the two of them Um I know that Him and Felippo Masa gone well I think that this was Michael's return to Formula One, right? And he felt under pressure, particularly once He started driving and wasn't getting the results that he got previously. And I think maybe I'm not saying he was perfectly well behaved previously, but I think maybe that impacted some of his behavior with his teammate. And I think he definitely would have felt as a seven time world champion to coming against a fellow German who's a lot younger and has not been a world champion to beaten by them be thoroughly unacceptable And I think he was trying to prevent that from happening Right. But the stories, I mean, if you haven't heard them, the stories were incredible. Brian Cooper. has spoken to us about how philosophy can be really interesting for personal development, which we certainly learned from Nico Humbun's Woofshine, onene single word for Nico, Ielligent, intelligent enough to realize that he had to play Hamilton at his own game, the mind games and intelligent enough to realize he only needs one championship And that was enough for him. Claire on the score sixteen loveved the conversation. Thanks to the comment from mister Onov V. than you for inviting Nico More so to Nico being so honest in expressing his reflections and his point of view and Henry Wyatt said I'm pining myself this shit is free on YouTube. What an incredible world. Finally, Armal Kinger, I'd love to know because he said he doesn't care. now he's got now he's not scared anymore of the unknown and goes for it If he was still racing today, would he still retire? I think he would, don't you? Yeah, definitely. I think he' do the same thing all over again. Before we wrap up, anything that you've seen, watched, enjoyed in the last few days that you I would recommend. wouldn' recommend a brilliant book. I read London Falling by Patrick Raddon Keefe and I loved it. It was a really good book about a young boy who pretends to be the son of a Russian oligarch in London. True story. But after reading that, I was really taken with the author and he' written a book called The Empire of Pain, right? It's a book about the opioid crisis in America that was facilitated by a billionaire family called the Sacklers, right? And what it shows is a book And what the book shows is how intelligent, sophisticated people can convince themselves that they're actually doing good while the reality of the harm and the misery and the suffering that they're causing He's actually playing out in front of him. It's a phenomenal story And well one well worth reading. I'll have a look at that You won't. No, probably not. I'm watching the new World War two documentary with Tom Hanks. Oh yeah. is it like twelve parts? Yeah, twelve parts We did think we'd get Tom Ananks on the podcast. then it turned out we were given fifteen minutes with him and could only talk about Toy story. So we didn't do it. But I've forgiven him for that and I'm still enjoying this new documentary series. It is good. And you recommended the Kylie documentary. Oh my goodness, how good is that? Did you You know what? She comes across as the nicest person, doesn't she? Yeah. And actually really sad when she talks about She's never found her love like she had with Michael Hutchins. I'm al moving Well I think well stood out for me when I thought about it afterwards was Some of the questions, the intrusiveness of questions that were asked back in the eighties and in the ninetineies about asking her about getting married or having kids.. things like that. I was surprised that what was acceptable and encouraged by how far we've gone away from that kind of conversation. It's actually if you watch A lot of old school content it's amazing how often was What was the show that I watch? Oh, who was the British actress who was like looked like Marilyn Monroe Jay Oh u Gomets No maybe she wasn't British actually she was American she passed away in a car crash Jame Mansfield. Jane Mansfield. Yeah. Reminds of a docentary watched about J Mansfield where. She was kind of trying to be taken seriously as an actress and a musician. She was a brilliant musician And you went to all these like chat shows And people were like the chat show presenters were, Oh he here you play music. Oh yeah, do you do it with a low cut talk and all this sort of stuff, Oh wow. And one endure was like just shut up and look pretty And he literally said that to her. I mean, this is going back a long time now, like nineteen fifties, sixties You just think like