Defining the Right Player Characteristics

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including high performance in their twenty twenty six Creators We loveove campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome, nice to have you with us, head to Apple Podcasts to see M and Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High performance ly Nighty World Cup was pivotal for me watching Gaza. I remember thinking in my bedroom watching it, I want to be that. I was unbelievably proud and the pride that I took walking out and again, like I say, knowing you're one of the best in your country never left me, but I never enjoyed the games. My mum and dad and sister are in the crowd and the whole stand and whole the whole stadium of me Because of you know, maybe a little campaign sort of against me The World Cup is almost here. I don't know about you. I'm excited And I wanted to go back to a conversation we had with three men who lived in arguably England's greatest era of players. and never got it over the line I'm talking in this case about Ral Ferdinand, Peter Crouch, and Joe Cold Between the three of them, they've got over two hundred caps and we're part of what's known as the Golden Generation. G great group of English players, the best we've had in decades. But why did it never happen What we've found in this conversation is honestly one of the most open, fascinating breakdowns of what can go wrong inside a winning environment And it's a story that can only be told long after the event has happened So with England heading into another tournament I think it's more relevant now than ever. And mayaybe this time 's going to get it right When I talk about playing for England, first of all I'd love to hear from all three of you about the emotion that that brings up. What's the first thing you think about when I talk about your England careers I don't for me personally, I was it' just f I am one of the best players in the country now ' you never really think about that on your way up when you're on a journey to get to the pinnacle, which was playing for your country. I was gown up at West Amond at the Academy there, Joe was just underneath And is like That's an achievement to get in the West Aland firstirst team and you setting new targets. And it's always like England's the one though because at that point you're not thinking about winning. It's just getting into the first te, becoming a pro And then if you can get ening the team and set your new goals and achieve that. And when that call comes or the facts that I got It was just like First, you want to tell your momum. We spoke about a Sday, didn't we? You want to tell your mom Go home and sell you mate on your estate. And then you do settle into your bed or your sofa at some point and that day and go, right, I am actually one of the best in the world in this country now I've got to take tell that on I remember. South African World Cups twenty ten. I was on the golf course and I remember getting a call from Franco Baldini saying that you against the World Cup And I've got the call and he said, by the way, you're going to be number nine. Right, so then offide straight way. the first person I call is my dad always C my dad and said, Dadam s the World Cup and' wearing number nine And then obviously like he put in perspective for me because I thought you know, great, man it's theorld Cup that was what I thought about. Th then he thought actually he broke it down for me and said Think about how many boys and girls like play football in England or English who dream of playing for England. Think about how many people make it as a professional footballer. Think about how many people get a chance to play for England, then think of how many people get the chance to play for England in a World Cup and then think about How many people would have weeded on nine? And I'm like on that on this particular occasion It was me. And then like when he broke it down on that, I started to getting goosebumps andking Oh my Godd, like this is really prestigious And then Capeello proceeded to play me for three minutes a night must No when you was gone up for the next T shot, you must' have been confident of it. It was on the number nine. I wasn't answering this for the first eightenth. didn't answer your phone, do On the eighteenth What is this number? No then p thankfully answered it. What was the next shot like though? No, that was done. I was like it' was coming off the green. Oh answered it. Yeahah. Yeah. A few beers then. without doubt U yeah, seemil like similar to what the boy said, I think plan for England was really important to me because where I like we talk about every night, but where I lived, I to go and watch England I used to get on the tube and how watch England and The nineteen ninety World Cup was pivotal for me watching Gaza. play and do what he did was like, right, I remember thinking in my bedroom watching it like I want to be that. I want to be Gaz. I want to go to the World Cup And And so when you get the call to play for England eventually That's all what I can think. I just want to do if I could just leave something, a little memory I remember Patt'soll guaranteee all of us after that goal went out, we would have gone out onto the estate and got the lads to throw the ball up and try and do that volley. Do I mean and then fact the f of I've got the opportunity to do something He's leading us to his vlley against Sreed week you? Is that you're? You've ruin it for me. That's where Mbe had all these stories. This could have been in any pub in East London. I'd have just reeled you all in there. No, but just being able to pull that shirt on. place for England and be able to do something like that was amazing.. And how soon though, does it go from like the pleasure of being picked for England to then want into a whim for England? Straight away really, you get business immediately. you get there and it's like. You know what, I was lucky. I was almost used to being around England Squ because I went as like a sixteen year old. to the euros Muro Night Ye in England where it was like a magnificent tournament and they got to the semis and I was there for like probably about eightight or nine days as a young kid, introducce you to the England setup, but as a young kid who I think's got potential. So I was like So when I went there was I didn't really have that bedding in period where a bit nervous still, but I've been it type of thing. so I was very much like, okay, I want to get in the team now I weren't there just happy to be there as a One of the squad players, I was thinking I think I should play. I think I should be in and it's You look around the dress room and you're thinking like I'd like Gar Sth Gate, Tony Adam, Soul Campbell, Mart and Kyion, people that don't front of me but I actually thought I should bepl and It was weird And I actually ended up coming on a debut for Um Gar Southgate. he got injured and um, And it's weird to say but you' sitt there delighted in a way. It's bad, but I hope he's al right, but thanks And then you go on and you do your thing and you hope They never see that player again. That's interesting because Glen that G Lenndold would have been manager bringing the young players in Terry Venableles and And we't do that undernder we never saw a young player All of our a and St. George's Park, when you go up there now They're all close to a s integrated integrated. So it immediately takes out that sort of any nerves that these young lad go on to play for England would have because they've been around it. They've seen Harry Caine They know them, they've had a coffee of womin. You know, so its I think it that's vital for the success going forward. My mindset was totally different to these boys I'll be honest because Joe and Rio were like eighteen, nineteen. I think everyone knew they're going to play for England. you know, like Stehen Gerard, wayay Roy, Michaelone, you know that they're on a path to play for England. Mine was different. you know, I went round about I wasn't ready for the Premier League tnt I was twenty three you know I played in it, but I wasn't ready for it. So whenever got in England Squad, it was the it was the end of a season and it was like the tour of America, a lot of people dropped out, you know, I thought this is my chance As you're an experienced a crowd, you know, But for me, I thought this is my chance. There's two games and my mindset was I've got to play both of them, so I'm not a one c wonder. And that was genuinely because I thought you know that was a feit was it a was O course it was, I don't want to be that one person that gets a one c, you know. And I got injured for the first game and my debut was in the second game in USA and I did quite well. But then obviously my next I got called up to the next one and thankfully my England career sort of progressed. But I looked at it like Rio's talking about, you know, with ultra confidence that he should be playing every single game. Mine was I know I'm not better than Wayne Rooney or Michael Owen I'm I'm happy with that. But my goal was to be the best of the rest. you know, they both were quite injury prone and I knew that if I was just behind them at everybody. So I'm talking, you know, Jermaine Defoe Car go Carl got in there for Dean Ashton got in there. So you're saying so you're saying you're better than them. I'm saying My goal was to be better than. You were better than you say,'t you say? I'm saying. I want to make sure that I onm the next fencech basace. Yeah, so that was my mindset. What I love about this is that all three of you, when I say the moment you get caught up forland like your eyes light up I remember having a conversation on BT with Rio and Frank and Stehven. And I remember Stehven saying something really interesting. He said He said playvering them was hard it wasn't enjoyable And then I speak to Catino who goes away with Brazil and they love it And we never had that with England. So I think the natural progression for this conversation is You go from, oh my goodness I'm going to play for my country. And you first at the age of six k a football dreamed of that moment Why are you all now sitting here having had brilliant England careers But you never lifted a trophy for England wasn't right in your era. Every single manager I played for hadad a problem with issues with the media. They were leaking stories about certain players who were misbehaving probably Um, definitely. u But also it just felt like it was them against us. It wasn't like we' going to the world cupoded the euros together Talking to Stevie, I remember we come on a coach after a game away somewhere and we played and we didn't play particularly well, none of us We're sitting there. I don't know if wegot beat or whatever but he come on the bus and I remember getting up, putting his bag down, sitting down and went That'll probably be out a four in theaper tomorr But that type of comment was like, that's one of the first things on your mind as an England player then It's not conducive to a good working environment. be best to be elite to be a winning team because you're worried about reaction of the media who were so powerful at that time, especially in our country. Bear in mind it was no social media then. So What they said was the gospel It wasn't like you can say stuff now in the media. and these papers can write stuff or people can say stuff, pundits like ourselves can speak Plers have a voice now and a platform to go no They, right? or I don't agree with that. So And I don't know, we weren't good enough really, was we? I do think there's an element of it was etiess of the Premier Lague. I think I look at like Rio, Beck, Gary Neville, Skulls, you know, you've got you know JT Lamps, Joe, Stevie, Cara, like that at that the Premier League at that time was war. It was it was it was two like four five really, really good teams and at the core of that was were English players And I feel that it was detrimental to the England team competitive Preier League was and how much you wanted to get one over on didid you feel I felt that, but I've never heard it from someone. Did you feel that when you were in the squad Yeah, yeah, I think you could see it. Like for me, I was quite new to it. and I think certainly The Manchester Liverpool thing is a thing, right?. Having played As soon as you signed there, you was an enemy. exactly right. So Alex Ferguson would put that in your head the same as, you know, anyone from Liverpool, you know, and even the regional thing, no matter about the team, the teams and how successful they are, but as places, you know, it's just a thing. and I think it's less, far less fractured just now You know, they look like they all get on. They all like like they're not at war every Saturday. you know, rememember those games we played in the Champions League Th that was all out like int intense mentust intense. And the two managers, you know, were rivals. Everyone was rivals And then you meet up for England like How are you going to leave that at the door And then be a team. Yeah. too be fair, I listen to what the boys say, but I think it's more from a pragmic, I just think tactically we would fall and behind. Now You have to remember Glen You know, and Kevin Keaggan com in and he didn't He went a bit old school Kevin and then we went on to Sven. Sven was doing the stuff four four two Rrigid rigid stuff that I was doing at fourteen. at fourteen I had I had a said this ain't briright. You know, I' I'll watch Italian football, you know, when they they're playing in triangles. they're playing that from the back. players are taking responsibility a go away with England from the age of under fifens right the way through every level wouldn't have control of the games, but I know we'd have better players technically, physically likeike mentally L the allder of the England team, all of names you listed, Rio, John, Frank, Stevie, Rooney Elite players, no doubt. Ive play were the best players in the world. We all have like been fortunate enough to do that and they're as good as them, you know, but technically, I just think it was a case where going the wrong way down a road of how we believe that we should be played so far and we'd all been brought up in that sort of system So when it comes to international football was we wasn't set up to win international football. We could win a game off of the brilliance of an Englland player You know, whether it be a Be and free kicks, Stevie scoring a wonder goal Whver, but I just think the system in place was fragile, it wasn't You know, it wasn't ye. We never re if I ask you, did you ever play in an easy England game where you come off and you win that was like the easiest game like you didn't even get a sweat on. For our clubs, you could name loads of games. you probably forgot more than you'd remember how many easy games you had With England was never easy. I always used to think this is graft Go to that Moldover. and come off sweatating and thinking Jesus, we got through that one. Wh Tactically we we were so poor. like we were so rich. I remember What pills hands of play. Do you remember? no one ever sa no When you get a ball you need to have this this this option. When the goalie gets the ball, you need to be here. When Rio gets the ball, you can be here or here and you know like you see with players now clear p struct standard even the poor teams, you can see what they're trying to do. With us, I don't know what we were trying to do We relied on individuals. You look at the big games we won like C she scored the goals in the World Cup It's like individual brilliance, isn't it? It's just because Chris' there knows where to be instinctively. It ain't like we've worked to get in that position to them play It was just like get it there and then someone will be able to finish it off. Michael Owan in the World Cup Did you ever feel you could go and challenge tactics or discuss them in more detail with the coaches? Well Fabrio Cpello, no. I remember we screamed at Fhar Woolcott that first sess in Dimbg. Fhia Woolcott a ghost I recovered Because he said before the session, he's likely played right wing. he said I don't want you to run inside was Austria before South Africa. He said, I don't want my wingers to come inside. stay wide, stay wide He really went on about it. was on that point home and the first whistle the first player the game. feels rightning inside. And he stopped the session scream Gan nuts. I'm fe I get on the coach after g Yeah. so scared. What does that do then to the rest of the players who established internationals who should be able to share their thoughts on their views. Culture about. No not. wasn't Again, we the boys are right in a sense there was a disjointedness between Liverpool Manion Unight and Chelsea Plason. Crouch is right There was massive rivalries that don't exist now. that was but I really think it was the tactical side of things Go on to Cpeello by the way, hass been a genius and what a career he's had. you know, you can't disregard what he's done. But my problem with Cpello from And when I was fit largely because I was sort of to start main England end of mainland career but start my injury problems. When I was fit he played me,part from department of a World Cup like went in twenty ten So The way that he didn't live in England. I just think there wasn't no care and attention. It turned up when it was close to an England game And then what done me was at the World Cup When I was all watch in Italy, like hollowing and hooting when they scored. like I just think the foresight of of that wasn't great. It was not good optics feel like it bothers you. It bothered me. If you look at them now, you obviously do a bit of coaching and stuff. but you see the coaches on the way they coach now When you go to watch any kind of academy games, the football is replicating what you' se in the Premier League with City type football there's no long ball game really now. You can see how much they've worked on that in training. and I know it's slightly different when you've got a group for maybe a week or ten days. It's not you can't work on it every single day, but I don't remember working on on March setet pieces. Set pieces and defending. But if you if you took England, if you can get back on time machine and take an England team from two thousand and two And think youve got all these great players. you think and what's been a problem handling the ball in tournaments at important times You ain't got to tell Rio Fernand John Terry to defend Ashy Carl Gararyeville like Nay. They complain a back four. So I think the time would have been better off used to implementing patterns of play how to hold ono the ball. Our generation for definite was never brought up and this generation is a bit better but still nowhere near what Spain and Italy France alike We were always taght do not pass the ball to a man with someone markking him. you're going if you're going to win you need to pass board to people that are marked about to take that man out of the game sometimes. I mean, and if you have got someone under a bit of pressure, give it to, be confident to give it to them whereas That's where you end up going away from what your principles and your values are as a team because you're not confident and you remember you you're told D don't give it to as risk to pass it into someone whose marks. And so I think there's a lot of things, reasons why we didn't win. I think definitely I agree with the guys. I think the tact because of our team and the generation was bad for the players we had but I do feel that the environment wasn't the right environment to create a winning team. So can I ask you around that then? Because when we interviewed Gareth, he spoke to us around. he tried to break down this club versus country and make it club and country And one of the ways he'd done it was by getting players to tell a little bit of their own story So you can see more what you have in common rather than what divides your like club loyalties Was anything ever done like that in terms of breaking down barriers or have, you know, you're in hotels where you've got all this time There was anything ever done where people can tell a little bit about that He drink in the bar after games That was it. that was Be fair That was a tool used mainly barri a social lubricant have a little drink. Yeah, I also think it's that I think the England national team has benefited from U I't to say less competitive Premier League but less aggressive preremier, if you like. I think we all remember, you know Roy Keith in the tunnel, you know, like would that happen now? You littleittle things like that, I'm talking about like hrific tackles flying in We almost had a fight. I remember. You know we were mates with England, but we were things would go on the p I'd win that fight. I don'tree. Yeah, I just feel like its I definitely think that the Premier League is a different place now than what it was. I don't feel we I think we can all agree on that. It's not you know, I think it's an amazing product. It's a beautiful. We all love watching it, but it's not what It was in those days. It doesn't have the subplots that it was in our time. You knew that you I don't know that San so is playing Sanso. there would be some sort of subplot whether it's two managers at it or there'll be a player you know doesn't like that player and there'll be like an aggressive spark that could just change the whole dynamics of the game. It doesn't really seem like and I think the reason why that isn't the same now is because when the personalities and characters are different and their upbringings have been different But also with social media You're now You're now without ever meeting someone You're a mate So all of these plers like each other's pictures, which is the culture today. they like each other's pictures and chat on Instagram, never met each other. So when they do see each other in England, it's like, what's that the new out here? Be they've got a common place where they've been connected, whereas if I didn't see Karachi home and away in the games and then I'd see him in England. I wouldn't chatch to him ever againough. Really. I might see him on a night out, but he wouldn't remember he'd be too drunk But why? Why did none of you and you know there were other big leaders in the England team at the time Why did nobody see this and change this will Why did you not see that? were go close or tight look. Go back to your smart people twenty ten and you know, we talk back Why didn' anyone go to the manager? JT We tried to speak to the manager and he was the captain along with Rio at that time coming big players and he just score Absolute, shut down, right So JT didn come out and he did an interview before one of the World Cups and he's like, well, you know, C I remember He was like, we're going to have a chat with a manager about something in the meeting. The press must have asked the question. results were bad. I didn't And then we had this meeting arranged with Capello, which was going to be the players, do you remember and the players and the manager? and we was going have a conversation about what we can do And we turned up and then he just went, go to dinner. And that was it And I'm like probably could have been handled a bit better in terms of not about in terms of how you ask about it. but if we could have had a really forfright conversation just before a worldld cup. and we could have got aired things, you know, the culture was different though. The culture was different because that's like it was almost like these managers then probably saw it more like you're questioning my Wow Other nations were able to win tournaments and competitions, like they were doing something that England weren't. It was chalk and cheese, wasn't it? We had Sin which was so relaxed and then we get it was getting labeled like player pow players are running the show Yeah, you know, and so they went so far the other way so you weren't allowed to speak to Fabiocafello because he rouled it with an iron fist. It was like it was like we had this, that didn't work. So we're going to have this now We were just told, this is how we do it until things started going badly at a World Cup and all the you know, kind of things that were banned or stops were allowed to He tried to relax us because he realized he sort of panicked mid tournament that we weren't performing. F' fil was bringing shirts to get signed by Bexlow, any remember? the manager, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. Getting shirts like Bex to signed shirts I was almost like What was your perception of that when you seeing a manager do that? I just turned away and disgusted. I was like, Wh Like because the England manager' like he's the he's the man,'t it? He's like your manager is like, you look at him as if he he's a rules a roost directs where we're going. He's like looks a no man in this team withith admiration or would show that Oh bit of a star, bit of an icon there. It just felt like that was the I was like, wow, it's just It was mad as well. It's weird this, but Bex is an absolute superstar We're all happy and that's fine. There's not a problem It man we used to laugh it as a team ' I remember we got off the coach once and Beck s off coach and all of our security just went with Becks And the whole team is standing there like that and's like fanss coming from all over the U And theyre go like we're all getting marauded by all these fans. pictures here there. and they look around and Bexy's just It wasn't his fult just as the security was like he's the he's the superstar got look. But like it was Isn't it for me, I didn't a hell about anything that. I weren't done bothother me. but when you look at it afterwards With Heinstein, you think, okay, there must have been some people subconsciously in Yeah. But subconsciously some people might go f no Yeah. one more for one for us like and then it just that's just a little tweak in the ambience then and the environment and the culture that it changes. it could be a problem for and contribute to why you didn't become successful, not the bill or endle, but if you know what I mean. So that Wil c in twenty ten that you're describing it. L if you take Spain as an example at the time when Morinio and Barcelona, Marin knows Madrid and Barcelona at loggerheads and there's that story that Galkeeper Casillas and Zavi connected on a private phone call because they'd gone back through the youth ranks and They agreed to stop the ennity toipping this Squants another for the Will cult Yeah Did any of the players ever get together privately if you've not got the manager that's encouraging it. Did any of you reach out and try and build these bonds. I didn't. But like I said, I can sense now looking back the Fingsbook because of my character. I didn't I was always a bit of a floater anyway. I could go and mix mingle with everyone. I knew Rio very well, I knew Michael Caracter. It was my roommate for four years at West Aam So Yes, and I didn't feel like I wasn't like one of the main I wasn't in the leadership group th, one of the main people I wasn't really Ing going to go. If I had just started a group chat, I got le That's what to go What's cly doing? mate, I feel like I'm in that boat They' to laughed me out of the room. V decided ye I went along Wed I was to be there just get along. Maybe you just thought this was what playling for England was like. Yeah Almost every former England player that I now work with says playing for England was scary, I was rigid, I was tight, I was anxious about the reaction of the media. I was never free. Is that true? I thinks for me yeah, it was. until I started scoring. I always felt like I had to prove I' scored every game just to stay in there because I didn't fit the profile of an England player. I didn't look like an England player. you know, I was different to everything else. So I felt like yeah and I felt there was you could feel it. evenven I remember starting the first game of the World Cup like two thousand six and in the dress room before round, like players were doing things that they'd never done before, you know, I definitely felt that there was there was a nervous sort of thing. just like you just noticice things around like I'm talking smallest details, like Rio was saying like the smallest little things you think we'd ever huddle before we went out. Never done that before What I know it's a big game but like we've never done it before. so why are we doing that now? Just tiny little things Eone was looking each like that. Yeah, it was like why are we in a huddle? like just little things like that, like before you go out play Paraguay in the opening game Yeah. And like you just think Ls nervousness, you know, I don't know, it's just it breeds and you can feel it. But it shows you there was no real leadership from the top from the manager then because I think the managers drive it. I think all the clubs that Ive play that The manager drove the way the team carried himself and it was a reflection of the manager and the England team We didn't have a real identity. understand and under Cpplla. It was it was just Well your identity was all the wrong wrong identity type of things that said up, right? Well, your identity was all wrong because of the person who was in charge and you reflected that person with friend we were quite a nervous team at times. Do I mean? we were We were plated in everything we'd done passive in the way that we played We just relied on the individuals. come in and produce a performance or a moment We got to the World Cup for the backs Agst Greece, If Bex doesn't play, we don't go. It's just an individual's performance who got there It's crazy, but that's just's how we were. So it shows you that the functionality of the whole team was wrong So if you look back now then, what sorry. and just to br back to the point about Chavy and to sales. I expect that because that's a mature. to address see it and then address it. I think We were too club dominant It's like almost thinking we're going to go back to our clubs. What's the Gaff going to say What's the fans going to say? because they didn't our our fans didn't They did they' they'd say bom the England team and come play for United That's the way it was back then. That's why Alex Fergus encourag as well. Yeah. So the same as as most of the club managers, I think, they don't care about your national team. do There's absolutely no care given at all It that. In the same sense though the Spanish were headed theirir time tactically as well even like they they won the World Cup probably despite of the in spite of the fact that they probably weren't and also Chavi and Cassz's maturity coming together. So they had the tactical nowouse, they had the quality players and then they had to get together us and that's why they won three tournaments. So it's like we're trying to this we're trying to find a the reason why we'rengland w there's probably multipleasons and we always have to say maybe maybe we wasn't good enough as well individually. Look at some of the teams there. You know what I mean? time? Brazilil, you know, S of the teams there France We Sain. have Germany. Yeah, we have to be proams Like it's hard for the ego. we might say maybe we just wasn't good enough as well. So when we had a difficult moment at the tournament someone got sent off doing something rash or team just broke us down and we lost our, you know composure because you need to have everything to N names. No. So how much planning was ever done on things going wrong, people getting sent off divisions in a cam, media stuff How much was that ever discussed? Nothing, notot I can remember. It's meant it was exed. People be home like but it is that was literally was we knew the system we was going to play. you knew who was going to play, more or less knew would us, you know, and we were going to do the same thing through all different stages of the games. And that was it. That's our f That's why I say tactically because We never changed to sense an opponent ever.. Like you could have done say in a qualifer. wouldn't we played one of them games if wed like Rio so we could played Moldova and Macedonia and we won the game. say we won the gameree one And if you'd actually pulled the game apart and gotone old on a minute we had We could have had so much more possession if we'd have had a Michael Carrick in there and it would We' have allowed Rio Ferinand to drop into the midfield and then come back. whyy don't we work on that for the next camp the next game when we're playing a Sam Mino at home. We're going to win the game. we can play with nine men and win the game. But if we can just get that part we'll work for three days on getting part of team, R bang rightkay. We win the game and there was an improvement in that I was getting out, you know, and then we're takeaking that into the next game. then we go right's the middle phase of the pitch we've got Stehen Jeri, we got what is there what I'm fring that I'm in Hargares. You know, we got what are their qualities? what can they bring Let's try and get the best let's find a system play. But it was none of that And that's why I hear they hear what the Lad is saying about the You know, that could have been solved easily but that goes that goes to the point as well. you only enjoy being somewhere with football if youre winning if you're playing well at least. the ambiance, the environment' perfect, the culture is great, but they're getting beat every game and they don't look like they're ever going to win a game and the football's rubbish No one player will come out of there again it a great. Great squad though love being here. They'd all hate it. Did you got get b and joy playing for England Yeah I did. I did. I did I did I loved it. I think like whenever I played, like I say, I knew I was sort of like a plan B at times, but you can still be proud but like actually enjoy it. I enjoyed it. didn I was Unbelievably proud and the pride that I took walking out and again, like I say, knowing you're one of the best in your country Um, never left me every time I stepped out for England Every time I got called up, there was a buzz Yeah I never enjoyed The games I enjoy training. I like training and stuff. I love training every day. I've never come out of a squad and gu. I absolutely loveved that camp because there was things that weren't good about the camp And there was the game where like I say, we never had a game where I went, you know what We are we're a problem for everyone. T anyone, we could be anyone. didn't feel like that. No for me I was just selfish in many ways. I just because I just thought I'm playing for England, right? And I just thought I'm playing with all these great players and every time I pulled on English sh, I felt I was going to score. I felt like I was invincible play. They couldn't defend you much because honestly In international football and Champions League football, I'd preer to play that playing the Premi Leagueike I just felt like they couldn't handle me. And I felt like I was I'd go into games knowing I was going to score. was come on the right. I've got Joeole on the left. I've got Stevie Beyhindi, Frank behind me, you know, I felt invincible literally. and I'm talking purely from a selfish point of view. Like I'm not looking at the bigger picture. I'm thinking about me scoring playing for England. And every time I went to England I felt like it as what defenders did you play against? Do you f wild? Is like superstar defenders you I thought top top players that you went and played at innational or Champions League level one four hold on a minute just torn you apart. I honestly like it sounds stupid but I don't even know if I should keep I know the answer. I know the answer. That's why ask. You know I said this I said this the other day. I'd prefer to play against Nestter, right? than Gary Cale. which is but for my qualities, you know, and what my qualities are I feel like I could I could I could actually I would Dominated Yeah that sounds ridiculous. I know it does, but I'd get joy against him. Fabulous defender I just felt like for my colleagues, they hadn't they never saw anything like me., you know? And that's I used that to my ad knowledge. Yeah Yeah. There's something really interesting, I think that's come out of this conversation, which is that you know, Peter felt almost lucky right to be playing for England and you've been very honest about that. Whereas, you know, you've got like a Rolls Royce football, which what you were referred to as, who almost expected to play for England because you were at the absolute top of your game Yet for PzA, there was freedom played for England. For you, there was restriction played for England. And I think that comes down expectations. So I would love to know from the three of you what this tag of golden generation did or didn't do for all of you Um Now going back to light to answer your question previously. Did I enjoy I love playing for England but Throughout my career I was always For some reason, it was people would I always felt pressure going on to pitch whether it be for Westam Chelsea because For some reason, people always wanted to talk about what I couldn't do rather than what I could do. So playing for England was not a problem pressure wise. I played for that on my back the whole time. that was the era I feel R away I got maybe the first year in my career at seventeen out the way where everyone was patting me on the back. and after that it was more along them lines where I couldn't do so Ping for England I never felt the pressure, but I could see it in other players a little bit more Like I wasn't I didn't care whether I got a four or five or a six genuinely lie, you know what I mean? So I think that's what helped me. But the golden generation The burden was probably on Rio Mor, Joh Franklyep, I don't think I think I was on the cusp of that. I played fifty six times If I went and done something, scored a goal or made a goal and assisted it, it was everyone pat me on the back, but it wasn't expected of me. Wayne Rooney the spine of the team Bunted at you know in the Premier League, these boys would were super human levels, you know, it was like R own and JT, like Lampson Stevie, Rooney Owen. And what they did that spir in the Premier League was So unbelievable that everyone just assumed that that would happen for England and they'd all be the same and doing it. And that hard it was hard to replicate. I grew up watching Joh Barnes and Chris Wadalf for England best most talented players of their generation, bood for England Yeah told that shouldn't be planned So when I got into the England team and we were labeled the goolden genereneration It wasn't our fult. It just was it was lel, we labeled it It was almost like well, I've seen this before, I've heard this before, I've seen talents before me, better players than me, Booe and told they shouldn't play for England. so I can't moan about it. And But I didn't find it a huge burden. It was just mainly in press conferences when people would talk about it. it would come up. I'd never thought about it outside of that. Um, but I think some people dealt with it different. Some people felt that pressure a bit more U probably more attacking players as well because there's an expectan you've got to go and produce something. A lot of defenders are reacting to people's movements and strikers whereas an attacking player you've got to guard in and scoren if you don't You meant be the goen generation Sam is difficult for them, I'm sure more than myself. You have to expect criticism I think far too many players and People that are involved in the game nowadays is almost like, you shouldn't say that about me I hundred percent agree If it's personal, it's over the line too far If we're talking tactics and the way your game is and whatnot and about the ninety minutes. You're an open book, you should be sitting there and going, you know what? if I can take anything out of it, great that I agree with it Soose to move on Don't take these things personal, expect it, especially in a tournent. When you're in that bubble, expect the criticism that's going to come. and use it as fuel. Yeah. I do think sort of like sort of a hartp back ono where we were playing, but I do think some of some of the stuff was ow buildt, like some of the things were nasty I remember personally going through a lot. My momum stopped buying for newspapers. caricatures and things like that. Just complete micktaking, you know, like schoolboy stuff, you know, but like it affects you, it becomes a thing, you know, and like I think it was definitely an issue for me. in what way what you mean? Well, I went from playing you know for Southampton and as soon as you get in the England squad like things are are heightened obviously then I went to Liverpool and I went for a spell and not to scoreing goals which was well documented and now I just became a figure of fun instantly. And then yeah, and obviously you got to remember my m and dad are in the crowd and I remember coming on at Old Trafford and getting booed by my by own my own fans and am There was probably a little bit of that between Liverpool M man United like that kind of valry. but that was obviously crept into the stands. my mum and dad and sister in the crowd and the whole England whole stand and the whole the whole stadium are booing me because of, you know, maybe a little campaign sort of against me to not being an England squad. So like like Let's be honest, right, I'm twenty four year old kid, right? I'm getting boob by my own fans and I'm thinking about my momum as I'm coming on to play for England. Yeah, that was the first start she's in tears. You know, and I know Janne knew she knew it was upset her and she didn't come to an England game for the next five or six times But these are all things that going on behind behind the scenes, but for me personally, if I don't show any weakness. I'm like I'll come on the pitch and I'll do as well as I can And don't I don't say to any of the lads,? You weren't a gamees score that's against made No it wasn't was But like I say, like that, I had to sort of deal with that and then I obviously really proud of myself ofort coming back from that and and then showing those people like you know coming through at Liverpool, Squort started to score again and then staying inland squad and playing at two worldld cups after that. you know, like that for me is a great sense of achievement Well there's that famous story that Jack Charleston when he was first picked for England he went to Alfre Ramsey and s said to him, like, Why do you picked me J and Alpha Rammsy said, I don't pick the best players, I pick the right players So what would you describe with the right characteristics end for R England players to to succeed personalally personally above What I mean by that? I mean Pler. He's going to go and Demanable demand to be put on the spot and the spotlight. You know, it could be a center off whether he's the one the last five minutes who you know when that ball's going to come in? He's going to put his face in the right area and get a ball. It's going to be a midfielder. when we're losing T Nil against Germany who's going to come and demand the ball when Weembley's turning No, it's a cent of forwardder. you know when he goes through one on one He's going he's going to choose the right things. players you' got the personality above the ability and then you need to look at the players you've done that. You know, Cently, you know On that subject though, do you think that what you touched on there is the right's the right player for that particular game or that particular personality. But do you think that, you know, all the players that we had mayaybe it might not fit the right system all those players will just fit in because they're such good players. You know, do you think we could have pererhaps dropped one of those galactic goes if you played in the Premier League and played a in Hargroves Yeah, you know, after could have done or dropped one of the forwards or, you know, do you know what I mean? Like we felt I felt like and it was a it was a situation that was leveled at us quite a lot. Yeah We're just putting all the best players to yes and crack on. that's definitely happened. but I do and you could have affected that by playing a you you could have appeased that by playing a different shape If we had a diamond in mid field or created it free to create overloads in mid field, it might have worked. but I totally agree with you. I don't think the managers were strong enough at that time to go right old on becks. you got to sit on the backck draw Ste Or well Frank, G, you gott to sit on the bench, you just was almost like, I can't do that. I remember sorry, talk about that. I remember my when I first started playing, We played Northern Ireland And they away at home We wantil was Neil Neil leading up to the game I was plan really well. But it was spec, Stevie Franken being in the midfield I spoke to Kiir and Dyer after the game And it was after after I think I think I scored the opening goal after three or four minutes. and curnt enough, but I was playing well. Do know you know you're playing well and I was it was coming Kiran said to me his friends said to me go, warm up. You're coming on for Joe. You know what I mean? But that would that was Senn's mindset. I can't take even though Joe's outperforming them in this game canan't take them off And Joe's looking like he's going to open up in the end scored the goal We went on to win the game three or four one and Kiran sat down, but I wouldn't have known that Kiran come up to me into to me like. He was coming off, you know, do you know what I mean? I was like So like that's the pressure probably That's what we. We felt that we had to work like I have to score in every single game because I know that if I don't, I'm not coming back. There was a lawyery to I think to go back to your question about player needs when you're play in Freland I think ability to forget mistakes quickly. For that level Yeah. there can be I've seen top players come through into the England squad or players that are terrorizing in the Premier League at a certain point in their career and they get to the England squad, even just in training forget the game and they make a mistake and they do not recover and you think o on That's the difference. It's there up there. Get that right in terms of okay, if I make a mistake, erase it as quick as possible. don't let it have a hangover and you move on and you can build your performance off to strength for something like that. And in far too many haveave that hangover. Very good. Listen, gentlemen, thank you so much for that conversation. Great to reminisce, great to reflect I hope there's something in there that people will hear and it will inform them about how to deal with the modern generation of England players Who knows what will happen in the next few weeks e I love that conversation and some of the things that the guys talked about there, whether it was the sending off injuries or Just share that love They were all things that could have been prevented by just anticipating them That conversation was recorded a few years ago now when Jake worked with the guys at BT Sport or what we now know as TNT Sport. But listening back, what strikes me is how much of what they described, whether it's the fear, the media pressure, the lack of a tactical identity when players were sent off or This connection between players How much of that has actually changed? I'll tell you, I shared many of these insights with the England coaching staff and They've taken into account some of the feedback that the players have shared and started to anticipate some of the same challenges If you haven't already, please consider subscribing. It's a genuine help to us in. being able to keep making Fascinating conversations like this happen As ever, thanks for being part of our high performance community Look forward to catching up with you next time.