The Dangers of AI Companionship

Joe Rogan, Experience. Tin my day, Joe Rogie podcast by night. All day G see you You too. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Yeah. How many podcasts have you done? I don't know. I don't know the count,. Maybe tense Well, when we were talking, we were talking in the lobby, I was like, this dude would be a good guess because we were talking about ancient Hindu scriptures where you were talking to me about something that sounds like a nuclear bomb. Yeah. And I was like, Oh. The Bramastra. I need to know more about it. Yes. Yeah So, um The Bramasraas part of Mahabarat You've talked about Mahabarat in a banas and ye yeah. So the Mahabarat is one of the two Hindu epics. The other one is Ramayan. But Mabar it's more interesting. It's more complicated. It's like a lot of different stories interlyap together And u The Brahamastra is the equivalent of the hydrogen bomb And how is it described? It's described as a weapon of like mass destruction goingonna inhalate like human population, should not be used at any cost There's like a moral contract. like you clearly have to be like you know, violating so many things at a deeply moral level to even like wielded. And it's not actually a it's not actually accessible to most warriors There's probably like two warriors in the world in that era who are allowed to use it And and it has to be passed through special acxes like a teacher has to like pass it ono you, the secret to use it Almost like a think about it as like the equivalent of a nuclear code, right And u Arjuno had it this this this particular character Maabar called Arjuno. Um, he was allowed to use it and then this other person was this basically Arggina had a teacher named Derona And u Dona had a son named Ashwa Tama And u Ashutam was always jealous of Arjuna Arggina was not thrown as son, but He was his model disciple. And so Dama passed down the secret of the Vrmasra to him And um, um Drona's son also wanted it Because he was a son, he also passed on the secret to the son, even though the sn wasn't as good as Arginina And there was during the war, Arggina and Drona fought on the opposite sides it's just, you know, circumstances. And u And and his dad died. Ashwut Tham's dad, the teacher died in the war And so the sun got mad and like unleashed the Bramastra And Lord Krishna had to come in and save save the planet to not not get that destruction force us How old is the Mahabrata Um Again, there's a lot of different opinions on this, so I don't actually know for sure. My understanding is is at least eight thousand five hundred to two thousand five hundred years old. thousand five hundred years ago was the minimum two thousand five hundred years ago is a maximum. So it happened in some period in that thousand year time frame between that And u, There's still like it it's still unclear if like a lot of it is just like, you know, being Mike deologized and what actually happened was just a war between Chins There were two groups of people, the Pandavas and the Kawas And u You know, each side thought they were fighting for their own rights and justice, but at the end of the day you can Truly understand it is like essentially fight for the kingdom. U basasically they're like There was a previous generation two brothers and both the brothers had a bunch of kids and those kids were warrying to get The next in line And u ended up being like a massive war and a bunch of other allies fought on each sides And so many amazing weapons were used as part of the war And a lot of these weapons are like remely like describe an extreme level of detail that is pretty incredible. Like there's a lot of detail around like Targeted weapons. so you could precisely identify a target and just shoot at that and then did explain like what the weapon is? Yeah. so There's one weapon called the Diviastra where you can just specifically targeted any particular person or group it would just automatically indirect itself into do it, almost like a semi autonomous weapon. And then Lord Kristna had this Um Weapon called this durhin chakra, It is basically a disccus And then you can just release it and it willll go and specifically identify somebody and Chop up their head and come back to your It subdirects itself So my what I was amazed by is how interesteresting it is in terms of Um, All the autonomy. in the weapons semi autonomy or autonomy where The weapons could just be directed at people or like directed at you know, a group of soldiers and it would just go and do its job and come back to the wielder. And there were so many different Astras, Diviastra, Varonastra, Nagastra, Remastra is obviously the Ultimate the hydrogen bombing con And all of these are like described in a lot of detail and like who has access to it And of course, it's mythologized. so it's described as this like these arrows in your like back of your shoulders. but you could understand it as like, you know, somebody having just access to a lot of weapons. And then whoever was powerful would go capture and colonize and like gain power And u esssentially a fight between a group of cousins. that's the bottom line of that story If we think of history as this linear progression from caveman to us, and we hear about autonomous weapons that were written in the Mahabrarata somewhere around two thousand plus years ago, we go, well, mythology. If not There's been some sort of rise and fall of civilization. If there has been catastrophic whatever it is, asteroid impacts shifting of the poles, whatever it is. Yeah. It's caused great disasters. You can imagine that these people are remembering a time where there was some sort of very advanced civilization. And this is what they're describing, like If you knew for a fact that there had been a great advced technologically advanced civilization, we have evidence that they had some technology, like the pyramids of Giza and stuff, like how did you do that? don There's some technology involved, right? Yeah. But we don't have evidence of the technology. But if we did, if we knew for a fact, you would look at the Mahab Barat and go, oh, this is history They're just explaining it in a kind of crude contemporary way for the time arrows instead of you know, semi autonomous drones with exploding heads on them. Yeah. I mean, that's what we have now. all those things that they're describing Hydrogen bomb, semi autonomous and autonomous drones I mean, they have They have autonomous fighter jets now. They don't need people anymore. Like this we we're in that area right now. So when you read about something like that from the Mahabarata, you go like, okay, what? What was really going on This episode is brought to you by Cate, the leading brand in creatine. You'll love their gummies, but now they've also launched creatine plus electrolytes mix, perfect for hot summer months. Creatreatine is proven to support gains in strength, lean muscle mass, and aid recovery, but it also has cognitive benefits more energy focus and neurop protection Plus they're NSF certified for sport and third party tested for safety and potency. Visit trycreate. coo slash Rogan or use promo code Rogan for twenty percent off and free shipping on your first subscription order says and deliver but delivered where exactly. the hallway The lobby, your neighbor's apartment Instead of playing detective with your deliveries, get a mailbox at the UPS store. We'll sign for your packages. Text you when they arrive. and keep your deliveries low key. 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For full details and to get your coupon, visit the UPS store dot com slash offer I mean, that's always been my fascination with with those epics and The level of detail with which they described all these weapons and who had access different levels of access The status required to have access and how it was used in the wars, different formations of the soldiers Like they had all these like crazy formation structures, like forming the army like a lototus, forming the army like a you know, there's something called a chuck review how like like literally like it has to have concentric circles So you cannot like actually get into the innermost circle without going through the outer circles and then you can get killed by each of the flanks whenever you're trying to enter in And the secret of how to actually break into these view view hus means formations was only known to a few people And's it's incredible like you could say, okay, like somebody had to be extremely skillful to have that sort of like visualizations and imaginations of describing story like that and And obviously like Tolkien has done an amazing job with a lot of the rings You know, and creating so much detail At the same time, like a lot of it actually coming throughue in real life in some form again Not exactly the same weapons, but similar style makes you wonder Was there actually something aroundong then? And people have tried excavations in all these areas. There's like two main areas in the Mahabarat. Hastinapur was the name of the kingdom People have done excavations around there. and have like found some artifacts that might date back to those years. But there are also some details that are described in the epics that don't quite align with reality. For example, all the men All the main warriors in that era were described as like very tall U seven eight feet, whatever, you know, I don't live in the No exact numbers u u history Studies by archaeologists also say that People who lived in those years in those regions were probably not more than six feet tall So it's not clear exactly like what happened what was correct, what was not correct. And you know, we just have to keep probing more But I find the idea fascinating to think of like what could have existed in sacred texts. that was only partially communicated to the next generation and having a lot of reinterpretations Another thing that is very interesting to think about is Vedic math So Basically, Vic math is like a branch of mathematics that You know, some people in India are grown up learning like I read it myself too And some people actually practice it just to be sharper at mental math for doing their exams like GMA and things like that, GRE And um, U It has like a line in the way those that says, Oh, like one from the last digit, two from the first digit, whatever, you know, so many different ways of multiplying Two different numbers, like ninety seven times ninety six old, like Subtract the last two digits, put it wr right Multiply the first just put it in the left. that's the result And u Th then you wonder like, oh wait the Rigwit is so old,'s as old as it's the oldest sacred text out there. How is it describing computation That feels very unreal like Did they actually know or understand advanced forms of computation evenven back in those days And and how old is Rg beta Um I don't exactly know How old it is? How we put that into perplexity Let's' find out. Yeah It is Technically the oldest sacred decks out there and So What's interesting is I wonder how old the stories were by the time they were written down Like how much of it is relayed person to person. for years and years just like the Bible before it's ever actually written down Scholars usually date the composition of the rig beta to about fifteen hundred to twelve hundred BCE. So its oldest layer is roughly three thousand, two hundred, three thousand seven hundred years old today. Like I There really was like every ancient culture has a story of a flood everyveryone they all have an apocalypse. M Barth had the same thing Was it Mar Barth had the same thing where That was a big like Almost like a tsunami light thing. I don't exactly know what it was called, but That was the collapse of Krishna's kingdom Dwaraka After the war, a lot of people died, but some people survived and Even those who survived got wiped out by a calamity or like some kind of like fight among themselves. And most of the people who participated in that era actually died Here it is. the primorial How do you say it Manu Manu Food, cllassic Hindu Grape Flood myth where the righteous king Manu is warn by a divine fish about an imminent deluge that will destroy humanity He builds a boat, loads it with his family. It's like no in the ark. It's the same thing. with seeds and animals It ties it to the horn of the God in fish form, which tows the boat to safety until the waters recede and the world is repopulated They all have the same story. Yeah. That's what's really crazy. There There is a concept in Hindu philosophy called the Yugas I'm reading a book about. Yeahah, yeah. so There's like different Yugas and Yu guys are like thousands of years. The concept is that the you guys keep cycling around And so like We are in the Calauga right now And before that was a Dwopper Yuga. that's when M of Mahabarth happened and before that there was a Tita yoga where the Rambayan happened And before that there was another yuga. What is next after Calaaguga? No, there is nothing next after Caliuga. It goes back to the first one. I forget the name of the first yuga. because the interpretation that I'm reading is that we're not in Kaliuga anymore. and that Calauga ended in the nineteen hundreds and Dwuapper Yuga started then. No no We are in Caluga right hundred percent hundred percent So why do people have different interpretations? Like is there? Yeah, there's like a guru interpretation. There's like one specific guru. I see that has this interpretation that Kaliuga ended in the nineteen hundreds that we're moving on Interesting. Yeah, but I don't know who's right because it it's an enormous cycle, right? The cycles of humanity. Yeah, thousandousands of years. Yeah thousandousands of years. So yeah So these are the four Yugas And u So why do people have different interpretations? I'm tell you the book I'm reading H See if this book is discredited, young Jamie. It is u It's by a guy named David Steinowitz Dine Steinmetz, David Steinmetz. the book is called The Yugas.nteresting Yeah, I mean The problem is when someone's got their own interpretation or some Guru's interpretation it doesn't totally align It's hard to know who's right and who's wrong Keys understanding our hidden past, emerging energy age and enlightened future Yeah So that go back up to that again. So this is in the description. seeee what it says that where it says in eighteen ninety four, an Indian sage gave us an explanation not only for our hidden past, but for the trends of today and for future enlightenment. So there's like one guy's interpretation that this guy is going off of I guess the difference might be that he thinks the yoga cycle is twenty four thousand years where I think it's probably much longer than that Yeah. for Yugus together is four million three hundred twenty thousand years. You know, it's really nutty One of the really nutty things is bothoth in the ancient Sumerian text and in some of the ancient Egyptian texts There's depictions before the flood of people who reigned for thousands of years as kings Yeah. And it's common It's not it's and it's also they're referenced multiple times in different scripts that are from different parts of what was Sumera at the time. Yeah It's really weird. because they take it as established history once it gets to a certain age. onnce they get into like whatever the age is where they can verify that this person was the king for a certain period of time It's all in the same text as people that reign for six thousand years. Yeah's And then one even just wipes out the whole thing. Yeah. I mean, this is also somewhat like tangentially related to Um The Fermi paradox You know, like if you assume all these things are happening on Earth itself, that entire civilizations are getting wiped out U And like we always wonder and you've explored this topic the most and Mred aliens and There are different arguments that like, okay, like The reason we haven't quite found that is because The G filter exists And there's like one entertaining theory that I like ust for the sake of entertainment is U Almost all civilizations end up advancing technologically a lot and either a calamity wipes them out or like they build some misaligned AGI and then AGI wipes out And u And because of that U They never actually like end up being visible to us or the other theories that like They're like Um We haven't quite built a w Noyment probes to actually go find them. and Both of them are plausible And You know, the there's there's no clear way of like No Unless we actually like send out enough probes. 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I mean, there's almost too many to count, but there's the possibility that they are observing and that they don't want to interfere and that we are on some sort of evolutionary cycle. cycle of cultural evolution, civilization evolution. Yeah. And one of the things about this the crazy ages that come from the Sumerian text and from the ancient the hieroglyphs that depict The ZeepTet how do you spent Teddy? No How am I saying that What is that text, that ancient rememember we talked about it was Zahi Hawas and he denied its existence Teppy said it Either way, you're dealing with these kings that reign for thousands and thousands of years. Well, You know, David Sinclair is in the middle of this research now that's they're working on life extension drs.. like that are Actionable. Yeah Yeah, that's Z Tpp. Yeah ard So these but this is what's so weird If they look at hieroglyphs, they get to a certain point and they're like, oh, Kufu, he was real. This guy was real. All these people were real. Yeah But then they get back to these guys that reign for thousands of years and they go, Oh that was is horseshit But why is it that all these people have these stories that align with this timeline that's pre flood It's all like the same story. Yeah. And then if you're talking about these ancient Hindu scriptures that are discussing technology that seems remarkably similar to technology that we have today. The Manas are flying carace And probably we're going to have a hundred years from now or whatever it is. orr we could have gone that way in the past. It's very entertaining to think of like Let's say something happens to us. right? I don't want anything to to, but let's say something happens to us People really believe you were like launching reusable rockets Or making Facetime calls to people in Australia? Yeah. Yeah, like even fundamental things, like all we're doing today Um I think it's all like incredible. Likes there's a lot of things that It could be just technological ideas or maybe people actually had it and the knowledge of it was lost. and It's not been documented, it's not been passed along and so we are skeptical if they ever had it Yeah. And so we end up reinventing it in different forms again and again, again, and we keep cycling through this process. Well, it also could be that this is the natural progression of human curiosity. Human curiosity and ingenuity always moves into these very particular ways. like what's the best way to defeat my enemies? Yeah. If we're always going to be territorial primates, we're always going to want to defeat our enemies. always protect ourselves from being invaded. So we're going to make better just with technological innovation, it just goes down the same path. Oh, we figure out bullets. Oh, we figure out nuclear bombs. Well, we figure out well we don't even have to use an actual plane. We can use an autonomous drone and that delivers it And then scale upwards and onwards and AI and then also life extension So if these people were able to make the pyramids, You know, there's a lot of speculation as to the timeline of the pyramids, but let's just say they really built it two thousand five hundred abre. Let's just say back then What the fuck were they using Like what were what did you do? How did you get these stones down from the mountains that were five hundred miles away? this one? How about that one? Yeah We were gonna get to that for sure. There's a ton No's good as any. How about these temples that they find in India that are carved entirely out of one piece of stone What did you do? How did you do that? How long ago did this happen? How many of them were buried and then they had to uncover them? And then like figure out like what is this? Who made it? There's no timeline No one really knows. There's no evidence of tools that were capable of doing this kind of work back then And they're huge and beautiful and perfect And they have like acoustic properties and the geometry is fucking fantastic. Yeah. It's nuts. It's not that all these temples were actually just built Uh notod just They were specifically the locations for them were picked out so that You get the right seismic vibrations over there. in terms of like proximity to the ocean ravational waves from the sun and the moon People actually made that level of like Look at this man Imagine the undertaking cararving that temple out of the side of a fucking giant piece of rock You screw up one thing and it's over There's no simulations. You just have to like. Bild it what did they have? This is the question Like imagine today if we had to do this, look, it's possible. This is a possible endeavor. It can be done. Yeah But imagine what kind of technology we have to need to map it out? to make sure that it was all precise that it all align. I mean, it's precise within like Millimeters. From point to point Everything is done out of one piece of stone Do. Was it chisels? Did you do that with chisels? That's crazy. How many times do you have to sharpen your fucking chisel? That's nuts Or do you have something completely different? Because some of the more intricate ones, seeee if you can find these. Some of the crazy ones inside these temples, there're sculptures that are three dimensional and they're carved like inside of the sculpture. So there's like an outer area and then there's all these openings and then inside it's highly detailed Howd you even reach in there? It just says they chisels and hammers And careful geometric geometric plan many people trying to do that. They said like this is how much work someone could do in like twelve hours with a hammer and they get nowhere let alone Perfect and looking good. Yeah, it's nuts, man. And there's a lot of evidence of stuff like that all over the world, which is really weird You have the stuff in Peru, like Saxe Huaman. when you look at these stones and it looks like they're melted into place and they're nine hundred tons What did you do? Yeah, How did you even get it up there? How'd you whereere'd they get it? How'd you get it there? How'd you lign it perfectly Built in only eighteen years. How do they know that How do they know that because it's attributed to one king Yeah. So King Christian the first seven fifty six to seven hundred seventy three C E Maybe mean How do you know though Yeah said archaeologists said it would have they calculated it would take them one hundred years to do it Yeah Yeah, I mean, this is very like, you know, I don't know. differenterent historian accounts are all like muddled up, you know and u. Well, it's a real problem. History is a real problem. But yeah, it goes back to like the thing you were saying, right? you know, what is one thing that's common across all these different ages is the human curiosity So I mean, that's something that, you know, I would love to get your take on this Like I've been taling with this idea Curiosity premium which is The most effective people, the most successful people have always been the most cururious people, the ones who have been good at asking the best questions and they tend to do better in every aspect of their life And you're a good example of that. So that's why I would love to get your take on this And the reason I believe that is because Long term, people who continuously ask questions tend to do better. to make more money. They have a higher quality of life. They're happy They have more compounding relationships. peopleople find them more interesting. and so they compound their relationships over time. And so naturally they end up succeeding There' spirit of inquiry there. intrinsic curiosity doesn't actually stop once they succeed. It only They just channelize it even more And so that's why it keeps compounding And I would argue that like it's the only quality, it's only like quality that makes us really human. you know, in this world whereare We can seek a lot of information and get information way faster than ever before It feels like that's that one universal human quality that's existed since ancient time since the oldest techs. L in fact, in the rigwiter Um You're explicitly encouraged to seek wisdom more than wealth And it's not just an idea specific to Hinduism. that specific idea exists in the Bible, it exists in the Quran, exists in the Torah It's not that seeking well is admonished by religious texts, it's actually that It's more important to seek wisdom And, you know, like you can why I said you're a good example of that is like sure you have a very, very large podcast, but The way you're running it is like you're just curious about a lot of things and asking a lot of questions. And I think that's that one quality that's very important. So And I feel like it's the oldest thing, it's the only thing that we've known since the ancient time being curious. Well, I think it's stimulating people and genuine curiosity is stimulating to other people. When someone is genuinely curious about something, I become curious about it. I think it's contagious And I think that it's it's also an authentic quality and I think there's something about reallyally wanting to know something and being interested in something And if you're curious Generally, you're going to ask more questions about something soil you have a deeper understanding of it. So if you're trying to do whatever you're trying to do a sport, a game, you'll probably get better at it because you're more curious. Be instead of just assuming things, you'll ask more questions, you'll ree examamine things It's gen it's one of the most important human qualities and to me, it's one of the most attractive human qualities. It's always been. when I meet curious people, I'm always interested. I'm always like like Tell me what you're curious about. and I'll tell you what I'm curious about. Let's talk You know, it's it's, um And this podcast started out genuinely because of It a lot of just talking shit with friends. but it also led into like one of my very first guests actual guess was Graham Hancock And it's just I was curious because I' re fingerprints of the gods and I'd seen him talk. I'd seen speeches and I'm like, I want to know. L what do you know What do you think's going on And He's another guy incredibly curious and absolutely fascinated with his his takes on ancient history. He has been talking about this subject a long time And when when he first wrote fingerprints of the gods, I think that came out in like I want to say it' like ninety seven or ninety eight or something like that. And I remember reading in so many of my friends you know educated friends like, this is horsse shhit. Why are you pay attention to this And more and more as time goes on, it's been proven that he's correct. The timelinees shifted back. and from the publication of that book, the discovery of Gobecky Tpe and the surrounding area Like it's like, okay, now we realize, well, there was some crazy shit going on at the very least eleven thousand years ago. So we pushed civilization back five thousand years So like, and this is just what we found now and we keep finding things, Keep digaking, keep looking And then you see the stuff that they're finding underneath the pyramid with this radio tomography where they're looking under the pyramid, it seems that there's structures under the We've seen that stuff. I haven't seen that I had the scientist that's involved in it. He's an Italian guy, Filippo Beyondi, and he came on the podcast Wonderful accent. almost as good as yours. It was amazing. But he's describing the use of this stuff and that they've used it successfully on known areas in pyramids and other structures and they can in fact, They there's in Italy there is a particle collider that is underneath a mountain and using this technology, which is satellite based technology, they get an accurate description of this particle collider that's I think it's twelve hundred Mers underground? L how far is that thing underground We'll find out. But it's like deep under stone and they find that they can get an accurate like they can actually give you the dimensions of this particle collider. They have like an image of it And this same technology is showing that there's these columns underneath the pyramid in various places that are twenty meters wide. And they have coils around them They don't know what the hell they are. And the whole structure of this thing, it's not small. It goes almost a kilometer into the ground There's like this enormous like bottom of it and it seems like it's something that's constructed And so they're like, okay, well The pyramid is crazy. It's crazy enough. But if there's something underneath that that a man made or someone made it that's a kilometer deep into the ground like What the fuck are we even talking about? Like who made this? What What did they have One point two kilometers into the mountain That's nuts. It's a half a fucking mile in plus into the mountain And this thing can see through all that and get this accurate depiction of this particle collllider and it's showing with multiple scans, not just one, multiple scans in different technology, the same exact images. the same exact structures underneath this aking an immense two million three hundred thousand stone structure that almost perfectly aligns to true North south, East and west. what What was going on Tell me polullies. Don't tell me copper tools. Like what the fuck was going on Something crazy And I have a feeling our simplistic explanation of it is just doing no one any justice. It's doing no service to history. It's doing no service to our understanding. They've got to be a little bit more open in the fact that they are perplexed And not just byy stuff like this. This is a three D print. an actual vase exists in Egypt that they found that is They found in tombs of the Old Kingdom This thing was somehow another, it's made with diarite. so it's incredibly hard stone and made to like a thousandth of a human hair And and it's yeah, like crazy dimensions the way the precision of it and wasn't turned on a lathe because it has handles Yeah. So you look at the handles on the side. Well, you can't carve and those are perfect too. L the alignment of everything and it's like you would just look at, oh, it's a vase, No big deal But no, it's kind of fucking crazy. Like how did they cut that out There's also these There's all these cord marks in some of the stones that they find in Egypt end of analyze the amount of revolutions per minute that you would have to go through to be able to cut through something and leave these lines defies explanation. likeike what is this? This is craz. This is not sand and copper and just rubbing things. No, this is some insane technology that We don't understand. There's scoop marks out of the bottoms of some of these stones I was like, what What the fuck is this? How'd you scoop rock L it looks like ice cream. Like they just went roope Like what are they doing There's so many questions. What tools did they even have to do all these things? They had copper. I mean, there's some evidence that they had some's iron. and then I think Tuton Common had a dagger that was actually made from meteorite, which is interesting You know, like when they could find meteor rights and make things out of them, it was very valuable obviously The Just the sheer volume of work that they did there. It's like you look at the temple in Man, you look at the three major pyramids, you look at all the different temples and all the construction and the older you go, the deeper into the sand they go, the more complex these things are, which is even weirder. So it seems like civilization after civilization just there was probably a rise and fall with their technology as well Absolutely. I think it's just incredible that none of this knowledge was properly documented ever. And it's a whole like line of work to just go understand like How to even rebuild these things leaveal on how to debuild it Well, think about what we're doing, right? So all of our knowledge is essentially stored on hard drives and paper. Those are the two things that are going to deteriorate the quickest I mean mayaybe we should take a dump of the internet and put on a rock, go preserve it somewhere so that ye, even if our civilization is wiped out and all the data centers all the g or whatever. R whoever comes next can go figure it out. Well, I mean then you've got to always assume that even if they found a hard drive, that they would like how long would it take for them to back engineer what we did and figure out what these ones and zeros actually mean That is which is one of the most bizarre and fantastic accomplishments of modern civilization is that like This is a terabyte which is nuts. Yeah. I got don't know what your first computer had I don't remember Definitely not even a gigabyte probably. No. Yeah. like a few hundred megabyes was your hard drive. Yeah Yeah, I mean, I remember when they first came out with gigabytes, I was like, this is nuts. Yeah. remember like when Gmail launched and gave everybody like free email storage, unlimited email storage and The bottom sliding bar would just keep increasing in terms of the total allowed size. Yeah. And that was nuts to me Yeah yeah And I think, yeah We take it for granted that we have like infinite RAM and infinite hard disk and Nobody has to worry about like, you know, you back in those days, you worry about like, Taking too many photos on your phone. R And you have to go delete all the old ones or bad ones. Yeah, you'd run out of storage on your phone. Yeah. And then you'd have to buy like an external hard drive to keep storing things Yeah. transferr stuff from your phone to the hard disk I remember the old Android phones, you get a SD card. Yeah. You could slip one of those in there and you could store images on that. Save space. Yeah. And all that stuff is so vulnerable. It's so vulnerable. And again, if a completely alien society had to come down and find our hard drives and they went a totally different path of technology. They'd have to back engineer, reverse engineer everything that we did, try to figure out. You know, what what are we using? What operating system? How' the operating system work? Is it Unix? Is it Linux? Is it like what is it? How do they do it be a nightmare They would need an advanced day to like figure it all out for them Yeah And so that's just if the hard drives survive So if there's some massive flood, cataclysm, whatever some horrific thing that damages all of our electronics, which is totally possible. You know, just some solar flare, some intense or just just just another lab leak No rightight? Yeah Yeah. just time. a lab leak in time. Yeah Yeah It's not and it We could go back to zero real quick. And we would basically be like peppers and huter. It would be hard to reverse engineer everything again It would be almost impossible whichich is why I'm really fascinated by the flood the post flood timeline because If these people like Graham Hancock and a lot of these other folks that have speculated that there was probably a very advanced civilization that went in a completely different direction. many thousands of years ago If you look at like the emergence of Sumer and You know, Mesopotamia in that area, which a lot of people attribute to be the earliest known civilization. That's around five thousand plus six thousand years ago, right Roughly. So the floods like eleven thousand years ago Plus So you're looking at like five thousand years of what It's not even that long in the grand scheme of things. N, not to the earth, but for people.. pretty fucking long. Exactly. Like think of how long it took us to get our shit together. Yeah. It took thousands and thousands and thousands of years of people probably being monsters being the worst of the worst Yeah. And that's probably the only way they survived. There's probably a lot of cannibalism.. There's a lot of murder There was a lot of like horrific shit going on for five thousand years until people slowly but surely figured out agriculture again., started building walls, everyverybody relaxed a little, got some solid weapons to keep people away so you could work on math And then next thing, you know, civilization emerges again and it goes right, you know goes right back onto the cycle and then you start reading in the The Rig Veda about stuff that happened thousands years. you go, what the fuck is this? Like what happened? Yeah. And that's my Yeah. I think there was something going on on Earth many, many, many thousands of years before established beginnings of history That was very bizarre And probably technology that went in a completely different direction than what we're doing now with combustion engines and circuits and all the different things that we use. They probably figured out some other kind of technology. Exactly whichich is totally possible. And it's amazing. Like it's amazing to think of like, what if we could rediscover all of that again. Well I would love to be able to I would love to just have a if I could choose one window in time to go back to see what it would look like, I would one hundred percent pick ancient Egypt while they're building the pyrams Tell me with'. Yeah what's going on Yeah There's just put me in a big hamster wheel. There's a big plastic bubble where no one could see me. J let me violate space and time and exist there for just a few minutes. Just let me look. I think that would be the most insane thing that you can see about humans in human history I just I want to know what they knew, what they had, what they used What this thing Petra' same time period at least attributed to seven thousand roughly BC. Jesus. They, you know Right? How The details of all those carvings is this insane? Insane. Yeah. And what in seven thousand BC What are the tools What the hell were you use How don't you make a temple out of the side of a fucking mountain? Look at the size of it, man The size of those columns It would be hard to do anything like this even today It would be incredibly difficult, insanely time consuming So yeah, the Caliasa temple, by the way, Ive I don't have it up right now, but there sixteen fifty or so Someone sent a thousand people to try to destroy it and after three years of doing nothing, they stopped They barely made a dent on a couple of statues Yeah, a lot of times when invasions happen in India, like they tried really hard to fuck it up and couldn't Oh, that's crazy That's very robust Oh, That's a great way to describe it It's just There's so much of that stuff that's so interesting because it's so undeniable It's so undeniable in its scale, so undeniable in its complexity and the planning and the understanding that you had to have a deep knowledge of geometry, of measurement, of you had to have material it. Yes.. everythingverything. Sturdiness Rist like calamities, like earthquakes. You had that, Pud. What tools are you using? Yeah. Like how are you doing this How you coordinating all these people? R? getting them to do stuff. I mean, sure, conditions must have been way harsher. L I'm sure people didn't really have a choice but to do these things because backack in those days, like the only way you could Take care of your food and clothing and shelter like You commit yourself as a labouorer to the state to the kingdom But you could also ask like what gave them the initiate or drive to go do these things. Yeah. Well, that description is perhaps of a later time, we don't even really know what civilization was like when these were constructed. Yeah. The real problem is the material science The real problem is like there's a lot of things that you have to have to make those things It's not as simple as a sculpture like Michelangelo making a sculpture out of something that's like fairly easy to carve into as st as far as stone goes Now, this is the scale is it's so undeniable So like something So something some piece of our understanding is missing. Yeah I mean, it Oh, like looking at all this like everyone should just be like a lot more humble, right?ike Yeah. we don't actually know that much like the what we know is like so little like right Whatever like the same thing as What Soccrate has said, what we know is very, very little And the only thing we should all strive to be is just be curious and I think there's a lot of tendency for people to like think like, o like We have all this advanced technology. We're so amazing. like Look at us and it' like, wait, hold on, like You don't even understand what happened thousands of years ago. and there's so much out there to just go and explore and learn and like better at understanding more Whaty is this place Yeah, this is unreal This is called the Eaura Caves Timeless wonder carved in stone. They think same Yeah it's the same alloric. in the Siva temple that you saw Look at that My God, look at this stuff. It's insane And again, There's no steel back then. It's actually really symmetrical It's it's not even like a in Can you go back to the first one with the symmetrical top? Yeah Look at the symmetry at the top Oh, it's nuts. ew York they made where the World Trade. Yeah, but way more robust I mean Howow What what were you they This is the thing is like the material science aspect of it. Yeah. It's like you don't have the ability to do look at that top one. G that top one again, the one that you just had, Jamie Yeah, that one Crazy man I mean, I am just blown away when I see stuff like that. My mind just starts racing And I just think, how did you do this? Wh Who was involved? How was it planned? How is it so symmetrical? What were the tools Like what were the tools, man? Yeah. If you don't have steel You don't have What are you using How'd you do this? I mean M of it is done with stone clearly, right?? So I guess, I guess, I doubt it I bet they had something else I bet they had something else that over time eroded just like metal wouldood today I mean, if you left a shovel outside day And you came back to that same spot five hundred years from now, there's nothing That shovel's gone, right? Yeah. And you've got to assume that these many thousand year old temples that were carved out of a fucking mountain tools they used probably got absorbed by the earth. and the only thing that's remaining Yeah giving me a weird thought. Like when they make a big building downtown though, they only bring the crane in for a temporary period of time. And there's only so many cranes on the planet currently too. So right ue You take it, you move it, you go Take it to the next spot. Yep. Yeah, true. I don't know. Yeah, especially something like this. like if they had heavy equipment and machinery and whatever the fuck they were using, they probably moved it and then moved it out and then it probably rotted away and now it's gone if there was machinery. If there wasn't, like there must have been something else some other kind of like some technology that we haven't even imagined But it's like they're Their commitment to art two. was so fascinating. because these aren't just structures. They're fashion projects. Yeah, intensely beautiful.. intensely ornate. Yeah. So it's not it's not just that they wanted to build like a functional structure Yeah that good architecture. No, it's this it's Fascinating artwork And it's so intricate. There's so many different features and so many different images of different people and beings and animals and elephants and If there's one more temple like you could pull out, it's called the Tangjor temple Oh, I've seen that one too. Yeah. Yeah. That was done more recently in the age of the Cholas and it's pretty incredible. When did they do that one Um I don't know the exact number, but more recent than the ones that you saw All of them are nuts, man. And then there's stuff like that all over the world. Whoa. This was done as a project by the King U to basically make a name for himself. Wow. That's incredible Is that multiple pieces of stone orr did you carve that whole thing out of stone too Proably multiple pieces So that's actually like construction. notot like removal. The other ones are it's essentially a giant sculpture That's so pretty Look how geometric it is now That's what amazes me. Like they didn't actually have all these simulations and CAD tools and all these things. Right And u, What year was this made, Jammie? say It's just so incredible how much of this stuff exists where it's really baffling. Like I just found out recently that the Aztecs didn't build those temples that they found them Really? Yeah They found like Tenochitlan, they call it the place where the gods were born. The Aztecs found it and uncovered it and then on the When is it Tot Chit Lan or u T Tan whichever one it was on the consecration day when they were done with like whatever they were doing with it to celebrate they killed somewhere between twenty thousand and eighty thousand people in four days Not exactly the mindset of the type of people that would construct something like that. you know, So those are the people that found it and it might have been sitting there for a thousand years And then they came along and they said, oh, this is cool. Let's live here Okay, well what was the society? that live there before them, and where are they and what happened? And how they do this? and why they do it? And why did they have it align with the constellations? Like what were they doing It's some of the some of the calculations are pretty, pretty amazing. L how they timed it how they position that How they cared about planetary positions and stuff like that Sure, like, some of it could even be pseudos science, but whatever. I think just the level of like calculations they werere making back in those days without You know, powerful computers. Is this outstanding? It's just nuts. And it doesn't make sense It's like okay they're making without powerful computers. So what are they using I mean, at one point the word computer just meant to human L human beings would be doing the calculations. That was their only job, like T lear like multiply to numbers to make some astronomers were actually the first mathematicians. The term mathematician and astonomer were used synonymously at one point. Really? Yeah Why is that? Wh most of the most of the Rars and math Yeah, because like studing the stars involved making a lot of geometry calculations And u That was kind of actually one of the first set of mathematicians in India. People like Ariabuta Bascara All these guys were actually astronomers too. They were not just mathematicians Mm. And Ariibata was earli used still like the idea of using zeros and then had a lot of like contributions in geometry And he's doing all this like just because he was interested in astronomy Isn't there evidence of pythagorum theorem in ancient Is it ancient Sumerian It's some Ain something that predates Pythagoras. Interesting My theory is that Even though it was not formulated as a potagra in theorem, like I'm sure people had to understand concepts of sines and cosines and like You know, whatever is the right angle for the right incline to get this right level of like geometry need you need to have some implicit understanding of build these kind of structures, there's no way you could do it without that Yeah, one hundred percent. and you have to have incredible measurement tools L not just the actual mathematics Okay, the oldest known evidence of Pythagorean theereorem dates from old Babylonian clay tablets from about nineteen hundred to sixteen hundred BCE, roughly one thousand years before Pythagoras No No wild Like, how Howow Clay Tabs often cited use what we now call the Pythagram theorem to complete to compute rather the diagonal of rectangles and squares, including an excellent approximation Look at this, this is Nuts mane Vadic Ritual text explicitly states the rule equivalent I don't know how to say that. What is that A squared squared C squred C squared But the diagonal of a rectangle that includes numerical examples predating or roughly contemporary with classical Greek mathematics. So completely different parts of the world. And they're coming up with the same stuff. Exactly wascause they all curious They're all curious and eventually all curiosity leads to truth or some form of it. I would argue that anything anything that's of impact on the world has only been done by curious people In hindsight, we label those people as successful as smart or Rich common trade across all of them has been like cururious Hm Well, that's certainly a powerful trait and People that aren't curious are not fun They are interesting so because of that, they don't attract other smarter, interesting people And therefore they won't be able to do something very meaningful in the world Mhm So it'ss, it's kind of like, u U It's less about and it applies to your personal relationships and personal life too. It's not just about professional success Like you'll have a more fulfilling life with your wife or your kids if you're a more curious person You ask them more questions. you take interest in them, right So that's the one quality Everybody wants in personal relationships is like taking an interest in them and like actually understanding them better or like being curious about common things And u So it's not just just you know, being curious leads to success. It's more that people around you want you to be successful if you're curious because you will have more compounding and fulfilling relationships I would agree with that. I'd say it's one of the more important qualities of human beings. I mean, it's led to everything that we have today. All curiosity has led to all of our architecture, math,, everything art, everything. The transistor, like, you know the story in the transistor? Yeah So Bell Labs was basically employing as many like like history adjusted, as many telephone engineers back then as the number of software engineers today But only three people cared enough to question whether you should use these really hot giant vacuum tubes for amplifying telephone signals. So vacuum tubes are very big, power hungry and very hot and so They were not fault tolerant and it's very expensive And so three people questioned the need for that and came up with the idea of the transistor to amplify current and that That was the Nobel Prize winning discovery and notot just that it was useful to amplify telephone signals It basically led to the rise of modern computing and We wouldn't have an iPhone like this today if not for those three people Do you know what the Tinfoil Hck conspiracy theory about transistors is? No They are back engineered. from the Roswell crash. along with fiber optics. any moreore So we read this on the podcast. Remember Jamie, there's the two scientists that were attributed. There's one scientist that said they weren't even remotely exceptional guys and that they gave them the credit for this so that they didn't have to reveal the true nature of where this technology they came from. I see. interesteresting Again tinfoil hat securely on our heads. This is not something I believe. Okay. This is just something that's fun. Um There's a few inventions that came out of that time period, roughly after nineteen forty seven that are weird. And one of them is fiber optics and one of them is a transistor. And these are supposedly attributed to back engineering programs So the Roswell crash, I don't know if you ever paid any attention to it It's a real weird one Because the cover of the Roswell Daily Reord said that the government has a crash disc that landed in the desert, a bunch of witnesses, a bunch of people saw it. It's also people that saw supposedly saw physical bodies of these creatures and supposedly againgain Who knows what's true Truman went to the site He visited it and then the planes, two separate planes were flown to Wright Patterson Air Force. base which was I think was just Wpe base back then. I don't think it was Wright Patterson, but they flew them out and the idea was The material was so important, they didn't want to risk one plane crashing So they flew it in two different planes and that this stuff has always been known to be stored at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. That's what E radios talks about. And then a lot of it was moved to Bell Labs And, there was a company called the American compomuter Company And back in the day, the American computer company was just like, it was a consumer website where you could go and say, o, I need a Windows computer that does this, that and the other thing. And you could just put in whatever your specs were and they would build it for you They had a whole section of their website dedicated to BellLabs and back engineered UFO technology. And all they talked about and this one like whoever ran it was like a fucking cook. I don't Is that still around? website? Yeah, American computer company Is it still around Interesting. So this is like the nineteen nineties, I think. You're saying your theory, I mean, not that you believe in it, but your theoryies that The transistor was not like invented, It was known and it was given to the. There's apparently a giant leap between the first ideas of the transistor and then what actually came about and how much money had to be spent to create it off of this leap. This was this assertion by these scientists that we're trying to examine this The thing about Bell Labs is there's a military base right outside of Bell Labs. And they say, well, that military base is to guard New York City. But New York City is quite a flight away, but Belle Labbs is right there. And they're working on some Dark shit at Bell Labs for sure because I've had a bunch of people on they were talking about remote viewing exercises that they were doing at of Bell labs You know, we've had a bunch of people that came on and talked about various programs that were going on that were like top secret programs that were happening that were being run through Bell labs. There's some weirdness to that place. Like real weirdness. Interesting. Yeah. And it's fun. Yeah. The idea that like you know, that because it definitely feels very disconnected like Okay, like you were using all these vacuum tubes U And then suddenly you're like, okay, like what if we just use semiconductors Okay, that there's definitely a pretty far drift from what you're doing currently to what you're supposed to do. And u U And also the idea of the first transistor and what ended up being used in chips. junction transistor are quite different too So there are like big leaps in terms of what the core idea was. It's not an incremental Change Um the way I thought about it was like, okay, that was like Tens of years of work And that's why they made a big change And so if you actually looked into the individual milestones they had, maybe it would have looked pretty different. But your conspiracy theory is pretty interesting. Like It's always fun. Yeah. And also there's just too many stories of this David Gush has on oath said that there are back engineering programs and he was read into these and that they've been around for a long time. But This is the assertion of that movie, the age of disclosure, The real problem is that they have misappropriated funds and lied to Congress. And so they come out and tell you, okay, we do have this program. Well, guess what? Everybody goes to jail. because you guys are a bunch of liars and you've been stealing money and you've been doing it whatever you want to do with this money. I don't know like how much How much oversight is there on back engineering UFO programs. You know, so probably a lot of people get in trouble. A lot of people go to jail On top of that These things are all being done by weapons manufacturers, right? Like where are you going to bring them to? Well, you're going to bring them to Lockheed Martin, or you going to bring them to, you know, Rocketne or it's going be someone that does that kind of work. You're not going to do it on your. It's not going to be like, we'll do it. No, you're going have to bring it to people that already make spaceships or bring it to people that already make jets And so they have a massive competitive advantage over any other company that's doing it. So then there thoses other companies that also had contracts with the United States government, they can sue. So he lays out all the problems with disclosure. and their assertion is that The only thing we need, if we really want to find out the truth, is we're going to need widespread amnesty for all these people that were involved My problem with that is that's what I would say too. if I'd been stealing money for decades and decades, I'd be like, we need amnesty and then I'll tell you where all this stuff is. I'm like, How do we know what This stuff is whether or not these are just top secret military programs with advanced propulsion technology that's unavailable to the public. and they're going to say that it is aliens and they back engineered this and they did that. They clearly don't want to tell people. They don't want people to know. I think a large part of it is probably because they could get in trouble. But I think also a large part of it is because it's fun to keep secrets from people Yeah Especially when you're the government. Why tell them? fuck those people? Yeah. Fuck them. They don't even know UFO's are real. Meanwhile, you know, we're going into a bunker in the middle of the mountain and we're remote viewing You know It's it's probably there's probably a lot of fun involved in having access to information that most people would kill for I mean, there's so much information that We just we just don't have access to This brings me to this question with It seems like one of the things that's happening with both with AI and with technology in general. is that you have more and more access to information and more and more answers to questions than ever before Yeah. at a certain point in time There's going to be no bottleneck. And we're going to know everything about everything Yeah. So how is anyone in government going to keep a secret. How was any corruption ever gonna be possible. at a certain point in time, all of it will get uncovered. Like it's much more difficult to commit murder now with DNA evidence, right Back in the eighteen hundreds, it's like, I didn't see nothing. I wasn't there. and then you're free Now they do your fingerprints. now they get your DNA. now there's flock cameras. There's like more and more and more It's harder to get away with things. Yeah So it seems like to me like whatever they have, whatever anybody has Ultimately, there's going to come a point in time where there's so much data and so much information and you could run all your questions like there's an AI fact checker for politicians now. Yeah. So while politician is giving a speech, you can run an AI fact checker and in real time, It will tell you whether or not these people are full of shit It seems like the direction is there's not going to be anybody full of shit in the future because it's not going to be possible I mean, the government still would have access to things that We human beings wouldn't have access to ike like regular people Um And particularly defense related, weapons related Like for example, When they did the Ven isy Willland thing I don't think people in Venezuela even understood like What even those weapons were Well we did. We were described as like, yeah, they were described as something the literal words used were like alien like technology So even we didn't know that The United States had access to that quality of defense technology until that incident happened So There are obviously going to be secrets, right? especially the highest stake stinks U, I would say like Building frontier AI models is similar to that. of course, as More and more models are getting open source I think the knowledge is diffusing. but still the trude amount of details you need to actually train a really amazing frontier reasoning capability model is still not like widely diffused. My my my things my my my Hypothesis is that whatever is extremely high stakes. will still not be widely diffused It's it at least there'll be enough structures in place to keep it secret forever. Not forever, but for a while For a while. Yeah. That's the thing. Long term short like things do get out and people don't under Long term is what I'm looking at. like look When we're looking at history, we're talking in these When we're looking at all these different temples and all these different things, we're talking about thousands and thousands of years. and thousands of year timespan in between each individual one With our world, we're talking about massive change in two hundred years. Like this country is two hundred and fifty years old Think about how cooky that is. Yeah. That is a blink of an eye in history. Do we understand everything that happened in the United States? No. Exactly so. There are still some details that are sure. Hidden from us, right We don't fully understand Every, right For now. Yeah. But my question is as time goes on two hundred and fifty years from now, isn't even possible to keep any secrets from anybody And is that a good thing? It might be a good thing. It sounds horrible to people ' like, Ohh my God, what about privacy Right, But also what about lies No more lies. Like everyone's going to know what you're thinking Everyone's going to know everything people do all the time. I mean, if you arere a true surveillance state, obviously there are no secrets. R Um except about the government itself That's the problem Does it bottleneck with the government? or does it get to a point where there you can't even have government secrets Because as technology evolves and as human civilization evolves, Screts would be less and less, not just necessary, but sequts would be problematic because there'll be an impediment to knowledge. There'll be impediment to understanding the true the true scope of what the world is, like the true nature of all of our various moving parts. Yeah. as long as the human quality, the intrinsic human quality of curiosity and truth seekingness, which is, you know universal. It's existed ever since be non human beings If that continues and that continues to be the case, then peopleeople will have enough incentives to figure out the truth Yeah And if something is actually hard to get to It only motivates you more to actually go and find it. For sure. But so my question is where does this all go? you know, and you obviously work in AI. And when you think about AI and when you think about just technology in general and you extrapolate, you just take it from here and you just oted out like what is a possible scenario of two hundred and fifty years from now Like what does it even look like? What does the United States look like at five hundred years old? It's very hard to know. I'll be very honest. I think it's very hard to know even five years from now, how it's going to look like That's crazy. Yeah Youeed a laptop that's built to perform and designed to last all day? 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Five years ago was like five years ago, whoever is the top most in AI, I don't even consider myself like that, but whoever is the most your level of decision making AI five years ago I don't think they predicted the exact state we are in today obbody did If they did, they would have already procured all the compute and like manufactured all the chips, bought out all the fabs, they would have done all that, right just this counterfactual Everyone's like bottlenecked by not having enough compute and like we don't have enough chips, we don't have enough power These are all the problems that if you invite anybody in AI and ask, what is a bottleneck in AI today and everybody would say power I think Jensen was here and he said the same thing, right? Yeah Okay, like, if you predicted this exact state five years before Wouldn't you have secuure enough power and started building more power plants yourself and started getting permits and like started like planning out capacity? No, Nobbody did that No everythingthing's reactive to the demand that we're having today. So and that's just five years. Yeah, that's just five years. So when you ask me to predict two hundred and fifty years, like I just have to honestly say, I don't know. Do you ever sit back and think about it, though? I don't think about it. What it could be? I don't think about. So there are like a lot of fun I use Pplexity a lot for Th these kind of things especially this new feature computer inside it. and One one this is just for hypothetical scenarios. Let's say there is an AGI, right And I've seen you ask a lot of people about this and And a lot of Conventional answers is like Oh, like we'll just become managers of AIS. don't worry U If the price of cognition is the price of compute, managing an AI is also pretty much doable by the AI itself Because it the bottleneck is not like unique cognition capability there So The value of the society will automatically shift to what is scarce And fundamentally what has been scarous is like asking like high quality questions about things. Okay, like water like we just completely spend all our time understanding the past Like that's an interesting endeavor. It was not cool before, but it' It become cool again And like we usually used to view like archaeology or history is not something that's worth having a career in because it doesn't pay well, but what if it actually starts paying you well a lot more Now that like actual knowledge works being done by AIs and it's all mundane, the price of that is basically zero. Right, an archaeology would be one of the few things that it wouldn't have access to because it doesn't have the actual ground It can't get into the ground and do the scans and let's say we have like robots to go do that You're still going to be the one probing, right, because you have incomplete information all the time Even the idea of like, okay, let's go explore this particular area Let's go understand better. Oh lets let's go try to reverse engineer. let's go try to build this again. How would it be if we wanted to do the same thing on the moon There are like so many interesting projects to work on for us As long as we stay curious and we stay interested in like a lot of things that we've done before and trying to understand like civilization that I'm not really concerned about like what things we get to do. We might be doing a lot more cool things for what it's worth. Like I don't know if anybody will be coming and telling you that, oh, it's so cool to like open an Excel sheet every day and make financial models, right Compared to like there's gotta be somebody out there that likes that I mean, there's something about like the task you do and what You get paid for, like what is a job title, blah, blah, blah. And Some people associate their personal word with like where they work at and how much they get paid And I think that thing is going to collapse in a world where like The price of all that cognition is going to be the price of compute What do you think happens to people if a large percentage of jobs get replaced by AI I think they'll find new things We've always gravitated towards things that are scarce because that's where the value lies. And so if You know, Have you one interesting analogy is Um Have you do the Gulf states? where there's an abundance of resources and export their resources to other states and that pays for the whole state You know how like they offer everybody free electricity, subsidized health, subsidized education and like no taxes When I first went to Dubai like almost like twenty years ago Um They told me like people don't pay taxes here And nobody pays for electricity here And education is like super cheap And I was like, wait, how's that real and u and And the way that's real is that, I mean, of course, Texas also has no taxes. And you know, any well run state can do this. The way it's happening is that Because the government provides you all these things It becomes a Ronier estate. like you offer political acquiesiscence to the state. And what ended up happening is citizens st Expect the state to find them jobs, expect the state to take care of like job displacement for them. So they don't worry So it made them a little more lazy. So that's not a good future to have there Some people talk about AI subsidies and AI dividends that get paid to everybody. I think we need to do some form of that, but that in entirety won't solve the problem. Right. Well the thing about that you Human nature is sort of undeniable And if you give people the ability to be lazy, a large percentage of people will take that. That's right. large percentage won't though. Yeah. There's going to be enough people that are inspired to do something and they say, okay, well now my basic needs are taken care of. Let me pursue my actual interests. And find purpose in that. Yeah. because that's a lot of people find purpose in whatever their occupation is. Yeah. And if we can shift that defining purpose in what your actual interests are and then really pursuing something, whatever it is then you'll still have meaning in your life. And we you just have't come out keeps coming back to staying curious. Yes. and finding value your relationships, the family caring for each other U If you ask a lot of retired people, actually retired people is a good demographic to understand What would happen? what are things people find meaning in after like work's taken off them And majority of the answers are always like family Caring personersonal like like relationships and community Like these are the things retired people keep doing to like you know keep themselves active and wake up every day and have something to look for. So all those things will become even more important at a time when like workk itself doesn't mean much Doesn't mean humans won't be status seeking. I think we'll still be. But status is not going come from whether you're working at, you know, like a particular famous bank or a tech company or whatever It'll be driven by like how interesting you are Are you interesting to talk to When I can talk to an AI, like Despite that, are you still interesting to talk to? Are there certain things I get out of talking to you that completely changed my perspective about a bunch of things Or is it just fun to hang around you Can we have a compound relationship together? And I think again, it goes back to likeate being curious about things. Well, this is best case scenario, right Worst case scenario is civilization upheaval, chaos, civil war And it's possible it's possible even without an AI, right Yeah. So look we've gotten real close to it a couple of times. Exactly. Yeah. So and we did not need an AGI like scenario for a civilization collapse in the past, as you've clearly seen. A calamity can just Take out all of us, wipe out everything So especially natur ones. Yeah, that's why I'm not a big fan of everybody claiming that the AI is going you know, kill us So like AGI is going to destroy humanity and like it's too dangerous and we all need to stop doing these things, but at the same time continuing to build andis and continuing to make money. You had have one's consistent position. My position is that Whether AI or not I think being curious is going to serve you really well Um I think it's going to help you have a better life And there are two paths to cururiosity, one that can kal it and one that can supercharge it In my opinion, the one that kills curiosity is algorithmic feeds Like the brain rot that you're fed every day with just, you know, just continuous doom scrolling That's bad And the one that can supercharge it is AI Okay like Now that you could just ask whatever you want. If everybody has like a pull it up Jamie for them. You know, R. And that's amazing. Okay, so all you have to do is Be curious about a lot of different things And of course, talk to interesting people, engage in interesting activities together. If money is no longer an issue, you can fund passashion projects yourself. You don't have to require government funding or venture funding. Like what if you just wanted to build a mini of yourself Okay like you find a piece of land somewhere. There's a lot of land in America way more ofand than we know what to do with it And and surely we can build a lot of interesting things there Well, that's a good glass half full. scenario. And one of the things that I keep coming to is this whole idea wororking and making money and having careers and having portfolios and bank accounts This is all very recent in human history. Yeah. Ver, very recent. veryery recent. very recent. But we've become accustomed to this as a way of life and Microso, Microsoft built this concept of a knowledge worker because they wanted to sell them more office software Really Like like this whole idea of putting a PC on every desk. And making you like glue to the PZ was there that was Bill Gay's wion. put a PC on every desk. That fucking wizard Well, where it incredible accomplishment because boy did they nail it Yes, it was not about making computing like beautiful or anything in the way like Steve Jobs envisioned it. Right It was like computers. Sell more software. Sll more computers because that way you can sell more software And if you sell much softare, you become rich and the company just was a machine that was just you know, built it's essentially a largeales machine that's built aal software and And now they say clloud, but whatever. Like that's essentially the the reason that like, you know, We all got trained to use. software e went into tutorials on how to use Excel, how to use word how to use all these email tools. and then Now that became upscaling. you needed to go work at different companies and then write code and like whatever, right? So if that part's going to be done by an AI, it's not necessarily a bad thing. because this is not actually the way you like real purpose and fulfillment in your own life If you were never exposed to that Whatever you had as the intrinsic curiosity in you That's probably what you should be doing Yeah, there could be a completely new way to live life Yeah where we're not dependent upon labor for basic needs But then it's going to be incumb it upon people, they're going to have to figure out a way to be either self starting or we're going to have to expose people to things that' going to excite their curiosity and make that a mandate It has to start from schools. Yeah. And u As long as we keep rewarding people for having answers And so asking interesting questions It's going to be a difficult change Like in schools, you're always rewarded for being smart based on whether you have answers to like twenty different questions Like who cares? L all those twenty questions can be answered by AIs U Have you ever like flipped a script where you say, okay, like I'm going The smartest person in the room is the one who has the most interesting questions H Okay, like what kind of students can you cultivate based on that Imagine if the room had no pressure to always know the answer the freedom to ask a lot of questions. R Because sometimes if someone asks a question, it de make you pause and go, I never even thought of that But that's it Like that's the question. Yeah. And it takes a I mean so many people have so many different perspectives, which is one of the more interesting things that I've experienced doing this podcast is I get to talk to so many different people and They vary so widely There's so many different ways of looking at the world and so many different ways of engaging with the world and so many different things that people are fascinated with that they spent their entire life studying and pursuing It's like you get this rich tapestry of the human experience that's just I would have never been exposed to this many people. Yeah. And in turn, I've been able to expose these people to all these other folks that are just listening and watching right now And it's fucking incredible And it's such a for me, it's like the perfect job. I've never had a job that more aligns with my own personality as much as this Because I've always been that kid like shut the fuck up with all the questions. I've always been that kid. That's the system, right? It's not your fault. Right. Like it's actually the reason you're successful now is the exact thing that people told you to shut up about in the past You know Hey,, you know, stop bothering my lecture. am asking all these unrelated questions? It's mainly a frustration of the teacher that they don't have the answers to great or sure. and And now that that bottleneck is gone We did this experiment with one instructor at MIT who taught the introduction to biology class where he came and told us that he's going to give perplexity to all the kids, all the students And they would use it as part of the Lectures So so instead of fighting AI You just give a ass to everybody. and let them ask whatever questions they want and they can actually use it in the exams too. So so how do you even design Questions for an exam in such a world is maybe users encourage people to Pose a question that AI can't answer right now and that becomes your research project And you turn everybody into a scientist Fundamentally like there's this belief that scientists have to go through a rigorous PhD and like you have to get, you know credited by like an amazing university to be that Sure, but anyone who's curious can be a scientist. The only thing that's required to be a good scientist is intellectual humility to understand that you could be wrong about things? Things that everyone takes for granted, you could still question them. When you're presented with new evidence and new data, you're willing to change your mind. And you're willing to operate with ambiguity and uncertainty about the world That's basically all the qualities you need to be a scientist And you can run your experiments, you can gather data, you can gather evidence, and you can consult people, you can bring in experts and talk to them. And as long as you're uncovering more and more about the world You are a scientist. You don't need a PhD to feel that you're you know, allowed to be a scientist or not And I think that's the most important quality we need to inculcating our kids the upcoming generation so that they all feel more liberated. Okay, like finally I don't have to memorize this textbook or these leiture materials and like I don't have to feel bad if I get like twelve out of twenty. Okay, who cares like, Yeah, I is always going to get twenty out twenty. That's not what you're meant to be like good at. Of course, math to the foundations, the basics, great Y job is to actually pose interesting questions Yeah and the intellect sh Excuse me, intellectual humility is so important. Because one of the things that was really weird about the whole COVID pandemic was that we weren't supposed to question science. Yeah. It was like that O or when Fauci said, if you question Anthony Fauci, you are questioning science. That's because they try to assign credibility through their degrees. Yes, through their affiliations Yes Aeal to N not through the scientific method, right Anybody should be allowed to ask questions as long as they are open to new evidence. Yeah. And that's the most important quality of a scientist Well, the scientific method alone, I mean One of the most important things that we can use to try to figure out what's real and what's not real. And as soon as someone says, don't use it. Yeah. donon't question Well wa wait a minute And then There was a an actual government push to silence questioning and legitimate researchers were kicked off of Twitter because they didn't back the narrative. Yeah. L this is all anti science. This is not this is not You're questioning science. Well science demands questioning. Yeah. It's what it is. Yeah When you don't understand something, the best thing you can do is ask all possible questions And so curbing that is almost like a way of saying Look, I'm going to tell you what happened and you need to believe in my worldview. And I'm not open to new perspectives I wonder if anybody has used AI to try to map out possible scenarios where technology leads human civilization and what could be done to mitigate the problems and push it in the proper direction, like have a bunch of different models of how this could play out Uh I try to do that for fun, but I haven't done it in a serious enough way to have like a proper answer to that. R ob I think like, you know, u, A lot of things that we are doing today will not be considered needed or valuable. And maybe a little bit of taking our own lessons from the past. I don't know if when you grew up as a student, did you have to like be good at mental math, like multiplying Arbitrary numbers. Was that considered a sign of smartness or remembering people's phone numbers or something? Well, you had to because there was I mean, you had little address books as we used to carry around like a little little address book that I keep on my desk. Yeah. It's a little tiny thing with everybody's number, name. That's the only way I knew people's numbers And I remembered a bunch of them, like all my friends. had all my friends. I don't have any of my friends numbers remembered. Yeah. Maybe my wife and my friend Eddie I have two numbers in my head Wereas there a time when People thought somebody was smart based on how good their memory power was. Oh yeah, definitely. But would you say that now Well people are impressed if you know things now. you know. I have a bunch of like weird information obviously that I've gathered through so many years of doing this podcast and just so many years of being curious You know, like Sometimes even my own daughter is like, the fuck do you know that? I'm like, this is what I do. L that's my thing. Yeah. You know, I pay attention to stuff. Yeah. But yeah, mean Memory itself is always very impressive. and someone has an excellent memory and can pull up facts of the past. we automatically equate that to intelligence. Yeah. I think it's impressive, but it's not necessarily a sign of being intelligent, right? I think it's just a look You have a very fast lookup table in your head. That's great 's very valuable. U But I still think like being smart is all about posting the most interesting questions Also the decisions that you make and whether or not you self correct when you make mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. all those things. Exactly. So when you have an amplifier to intelligence like an AI all the time where lookups is essentially something you can delegate U Reasoning for decision making is something you can delegate Posing the right questions to gather the right data and then forming your own judgment based on what it reasons and comes up with And finally having the courage to make the decision, that's still you, that agency that Intrinsic curiosity d ask the right question, the scientific intellectual humility to like you know, gather new evidence, alwaysways questioning your beliefs. That is still you And so I feel like that is essentially what would be considered smart in the ages to come. If somebody's like a You know, like a proxy scientist or whatever, like No more doesn't have to go to like Mor Harvard and get a PhD to be a scientist or to be considered a scientist Because all scient fific literature is open and accessible to everybody and You can you can even take a paper written by an expert and use an AI, understand it deeply, ask a lot of questions and maybe even disprove what they blame. be true That's the whole peer review process, right The peer review process is all about questestioning somebody's paper And u That's why like, you know, whatever you said happened in the COVID days is wrong. Like you should be allowed to ask questions about Even emminence scientists work It's okay, Like if you're dumb and you had the wrong questions, sure You're going to learn from that. It's worse than not being allowed to ask a question. Yeah It's going be interesting to see what the future of education looks like Like how valuable are degrees when essentially AI is going to be able to do the majority of whatever work you need done on variety like Good are they right now at Lw you could ask questions pretty pretty amazing. R Yeah. How good are they at mathematics? Perfect. like How good are they at coding? wayay better than people Yeah And at a certain point in time, it's going to be interesting that like what is education now? Is education just providing you with information? because that information is readily available Or is education teaching you how to think Yeah, teaching you how to pursue your interests and be curious and have intellectual humility and understand what you know and what you don't know I think that that's where it should be. I still think inststitutions will preserve their brand value because there is a certain aspect of education that's outside of learning is just having access to other curious and intelligent people Sure And community. Yeah, and brands attract good communities, peer groups, blah blah blah. But the actual process of learning st has to change and what you're rewarded for has to change. fundamentally everything you know, flows down as downstream of the incentive So if the incentive to score the highest on the exam based on answers They're not really changing much. you need to change that process And need to change the process of what are you reward a student? Like what is a plus or A Right That's where we need to start it. Let's also the we you know, we talked about this the other day that the education system in this country was designed to make workers. Exactly. That's what they did when they first started doing it. Yeah the turn of the cururriculum was designed around that. Yeah Well, in India, it's still the case, by the way. Really? Even if you're auter evenven if you go into a computer science degree, I don't know if it's look I shouldn't mispeak, but at least when I was there and for many years after The first two years, you just speent learning hardcore electrical and mechanical engineering. You would learn like welding using late machines you would you would, u have to like go and like do workshops, carpentry a lot of these things. It was fun. I would think there's be a lot of value in that. in hindsight, I actually think it was fun to learn soldering and like How to like make circuits on redboards and b the circuit boards. U if somebody was just interested in some you know, just writing code, let's say, back then All this is kind of like pointless to learn, but you had to go through it to be qualified as an engineer So u And the reason the curriculum was designed that way is because that's what The labor force. pired back then to build like oil factories and like all these things. so you had to learn mechanical engineering, you had to learn fluid mechanics, whatever U I think that should also change because if the way like you do work changes then what you're trained for in college should also change And it's much harder to change these things. You know, peopleople are much slower. They're scared to do changes, disisruptions always like looked down upon And, um So I think let's at least start at the incentive structure rightight from the schools, right from the colleges like, let's not like reward people based on like how much they know Well, it seems like in the future, when things do radically change and they seems like they're inevitable, they're going to radically change. Universities and schools are going to be rewarded for having developed thinkers that are able to adapt to this new world. That's right Yeah. So they're going to have to figure out how to adjust their curriculum. Yeah Because the tools are so spectacular now that just this idea of just memorizing information it's not That's not what you're going to need to get by in the future. It's not. And I guess like one proxy different schools use is like maybe If more entrepreneurs arise out of your school You probably created a lot of independent thinkers. Mhm because they are like willing to take a first perspective towards a problem and build their own thing from scratch And fundamentally that's whatmer America's always been about is you know, some the American dream of coming here and like, haaving your own idea and still be taken seriously by a bunch of people The whole idea of venture capital and leaks this year are like family and friends around there this whole idea of this Hving your friends help you to bootstrap a business and then turning it into a success And success doesn't mean like multi billion or ten billion or whatever, right? Like As long as it pays you enough that you don't have to work for somebody else and you can live a fulfilling life and you can just go explore your passions. success. That's actually a better success than creating company based on what other people want you to do and then hating a job for it. Yeah and having a yacht and being miserable exxactly every day. That's why I said, like not the smartest or the richest people are not always the ones who have the most fulfilling lives, the most curious people have the most fulfilling lives because They have better relationships They're actually able to sit and look at something and you know be curious about it. instead of like being worried about what's going on What did the American dream? what was it to you when you weren't in America Like what what is it like or like what is how is it discussed Well, u too me, like I always thought America is the only country where you can come here And have an idea and people listen to you And and encourage you to go pursue it The risk seeking culture is just Inredible here Everybody everywhere else youkana are like either explicitly or implicitly are forced to def for authority. Okay, like go and ask the permission of this person, Go and ask the permission of that person or get their approval or get their insight or sure you can get their you can consult everybody out there, but If you have a thought that challenges what they believe in This country still encourages you to let go psue it. Mm And u So Yes, like when I came here, obviously, you know, Google was number one. company that everybody wanted to work in But it's also the same country where it allows you as a new person startart a new idea that challenges one of the biggest companies in this own country And it actually wants it. People actually want new ideas And and then You can consistently see that there are like always going to be more and more new ideas and new companies to be created here. And so that spirit of like Qestioning is encouraged a lot here And it happens in academic research. I started off as an academic even there A lot of ideas when I had it, and I would share it with people U You know, people actually give you very honest feedback about things But they don't stop you from working on anything And that's fantastic because that's very fresh. It's very liberating. And that's not anywhere else I would say it's not in India. It's a simplification to say, it's not anywhere else, but It's not as encouraged. It's not as encouraged The incentive structures are not quite there And u ability to like be taken seriously for some crazy ideas is why America still But it's crazy to me that if the American dream is so compelling and so many people come here for it, why doesn't the rest of the world sort of adopt those values It's hard You know, like a lot of it is cultural Like America was born was made from like, you know piece of land, essentially, right U And u, A lot of ideas that we built here, a lot of industries that we built here Volic created here from nothing And that required you to like Go take bold risks I think Jeff Bezo said this in some podcast at Where else would you like be able to go race? like a few million dollars for an idea that has like five per to ten percent chance of working and then fail at it and still go and raise another few million dollars for your next idea nowhere else. People are willing to like people who get rich here actually want to encourage and be part of somebody else's crazy journey becausecause it's hard to pursue all Crazy bets yourself So it's an ecosystem And once something becomes an ecosystem, there's network effects So it's very hard to copy that elsewhere And so your value is measured in your curiosity and you're willing to work. your willingness to work on whatever it is that is your pursuit. Yes. And then eventually adjusting and learning catch and fire with one of them. Correct. and you have to work hard like, you know, like I'm a big believer in intense hard work. I think nothing great can be accomplished by being soft. and so all this like recason push for you know, having a lot of work life balance this and that. sureure. if you have work life if that's what you want, then I think There are certain jobs that would give you that, but when you're trying to do something from scratch when you're trying to create something from nothing It's not meant to be easy There are some sacrifices that have to be made and you're signing up to be part of that experience, that surreal joy you get from doing something that felt almost impossible to achieve and u And you're not doing, you're not like staying up later waking up early. because you're getting paid more Maybe you might not get paid anything. Maybe this whole thing goes to nothing, but That experience you're getting of being part of something that feels very hard to achieve is what you're signing up for to be part of. And if you're not, Find something melts. It's fine. respect Nhing wrong with that. Exactly. Yeah. and the country has enough jobs to provide for All kinds of like needs, right? And everybody goes through different phases in their life. sometometimes they feel a little lazy or like disillusioned, okay And so what I like about this country is that there's a lot of curious people here. There's a lot of like so many different people, you know, like whether they use AIS or not AISs, they're all like finding meananing in like so many interesting projects. Well, obviously, I don't know any other country really because I was born here, but people that do talk to me about what the American dream is like from another country, they're the most passionate and the most supportive of this this idea, this experiment in self government and this this the Just the whole idea that the country operates on that anybody can chase their dream Yeah you can. If you have a dream and you're willing to work hard, you could actually do it in this country. That's right Yeah, that's You know, it's The people that are most passionate about that idea oftentimes are people that come from somewhere else where that wasn't available. And it's not just like people coming from one particular country or another it's the attitude the way the system works and rewards you to like be bold And take bets against established players. It's okay, right It's okay to like be an upstar, a challenger. and people all that like underdog And I think, you know, that's fantastic. like and that culture is continuing Yes they are all like multi trillion dollar companies here and they're all going to become even bigger But people still want the young hungry person to also be successful Well they love disruptors. Yeah. And people love underdogs in this country. Yeah. Yeah. It's universal. It's not specific to technology. Right. Like I'm sure everybody would love underdog story that wants to go against like Coca Col or Pipsi or something sure. Yeah. Oh, in sports. it's our favorite sports. Yeah. We don't like when the guy who's supposed to win wins We love when the guy who's not supposed to win triumphs. Yeah. Yeah. The underdog story Yeah. That's a very uniquely American story To me, that's what this country's I mean, sure there's lot of obstacles and challenges. justust like every other country, there are things here that are challenging, but It's one thing that has consistently stayed One of the big fears that people in America have about technology in particular is that without being aware that this was going to take place Everybody gave up their data, everyverybody gave up their data and didn't recognize it was a commodity. That in turn made these corporations immensely wealthy and powerful. And then they have the ability to shape narratives. And that concerns people because using their ideological position as leverage to try to push that through technology that has immense control and influence over people. and that We didn't see technology and corporations as having that much control over how society views itself and how we interact with each other And there's a real real concern that these companies got so big And like there's a guy named Robert Epstein who's done a lot of work on narrated or curated search engine results. And how much that can have you seen any of this stuff? I think I've seen this yeah How much that can affect elections? How much that can affect people's perceptions on any societal issue that's coming up concerning. It really is because they do curate search results. It's not simply, you know, you just run it out there and you get this is the data. No. if you look for specific political figures, depending upon where they fall in the right or left spectrum, and depending upon which way the company forms, the corporation forms falls rather you'll get different results and that sucks. You know, that's It's very concerning that people don't recognize. they don't They don't have the ability to see how that is dangerous for all of society to have that kind of power and wield it in that way where you're not being honest about accurate objective information. You're pushing particular ideologies. Yeah I think it's kind of like This is almost an effect of the asymmetry that exists between the amount of AI power that centralized systems and centralized companies have and the amount of AI power as you as a sovereign individual has So when you don't have the AIs to just Go judge for yourself like what you should be reading and fed You're obviously like under the influence of water You know, whatever big tech companies controlling the information flow But when you have access to all those AIs, you can actually just Customize what do you want to see by telling the AI like, hey, this is what I think You should actually question and tell me Until now, you never had that power for yourself. You're finally getting it.. And eventually we'll be able to have our own LLMs, like our own models that we would be able to post in our own hardware. We don't have to rely on like one centralized model given to us by like any specific model company And u Using that, you can shape it to your your beliefs, your custom, you know, your your custom data and So when you're consuming search result, you can actually t that AI that you cont dral and you run so nobody can shut off access to it to tell you like, hey, like can you actually like Give me a contrary perspective on this Alike, can you tell me if these search results are actually biased So I think we need to give individuals more sovereignty but more access to their own AIs that they own and run on a piece of hardware they own themselves And this is the whole like this is going to be leadading to the whole rise of local AIs So as AI models, like today they're very power ineicient. They're running on large data centers, but in a year or two from now, whatever capability that exists in the most power hungry data centers will be It'll be possible to run it in some box that you own I mean,. Yeah It's already happening It's already happening that like there are like interesting hardware projects like the Apple, Mac Mini N VIia DGX where you can actually host a reasonable size model And put it in a box and have it run and you don't have to pay for all the tokens it produces you You just have to plug it into your P requirement works I know Duncan, my friend, Duncan Trussell, he does that. Yeah And today the capability of that model that can run locally is not quite there So you would still prefer to use something that runs from the data center. But eventually this is going to be a spectrum. There's going to be some percentage of tasks that you would start delegating to this local system. It'll be a hybrid model And over time, it could end up being the case that you could buy something that feels like a refrigerator for your home which is your own AI box and host a model that you control. So nobody can arbitrarily shut off access to it one day And then you can You can have that be your weapon against what the big tech wants you to be fed or believe in So this is the only way we can fight this because they have far more computing power F more data. far more algorithms than you. So the only way you can fight that is you have something you own yourself. And with the rise of open source models, open source LLMs You can just and progress in local hardware. And both Apple and Videia Intel they're all doing amazing work here You could potentially change the future and give people more power. And this may not be as expensive as people Well, that's a good solution Because I've always wondered like is are these searches like using Google? Is that going to be irrelevant one day Because you already can just ask your phone. like Most of the time if I want to have an answer for something, I just ask perplexity. It's like, what is it? inststead of like having to sift through all these Google searches and try to figure out what it's showing me first and get to page three where it's what I really want to know Yeah, I can get the accurate information. then follow up questions are instantaneous. Yeah. And even the models that are running the Fxity app today They're in the cloud Eventually you'll be able to do that O on a box that you own You can still you can still use the front end the UI of the app But you can control the compute that runs on piece of hardware. you may ask, why why do I care Okay like what if s someeday like the data center gets taken off Like Iran was bombing data centers. Right. O like what if someday like the government decides that model is no longer available? You want some control over like what models you can run and like You you may even want to shape it to like your context that you never want to be living on any data center Hm. and I think that's where I believe The individual gets more sovereignty against big tech And that's how like we fight surveillance or like centralization of power. Yeah, and c certainly pushing narratives What do you think happens with social media? Because social media and as you were talking about before, like algorithms, like it's one of the biggest problems in terms of the way people view the world. Yeah. I'm curious what you think, like, you know Like my opinion is that it's not good for the kids terrible for them. Yeah. But I think they should have some exposure to it because I think it's good to know that it's a thing And I think children are fairly resilient and they learn. But the anxiety levels of kids is much higher than ever before. Yeah. Suicidal ideation higher, self harm. Yeah. Yeah I'm a little My belief is that Men are just fed of feed And the algorithm of the social media company decides what you're going to see next. It curbs your curiosity And I don't I don't think think that curb human curiosity should be encouraged Yeah, I agree. And so if the app is designed in a way where it asks you what you're interested in and helps you to come up Find things that are very related to what you're interested in. Bant. That's awesome, but That's not how it works. It's literally like it starts with something, you start doom scrolling and then start showing you what you just scroll And then you end up in anchle chamber and that's not that's not necessarily good. Well you can get trapped. Yeah. you can get I'm in a trap of schizophrenics lately on Instagram, which's just mostly schizophrenics. L people that tell me theyre the rightful president of the United States and like you tell the guy hasn't showered in days You know, and if you have a phone, you can create an account and you just start uploading nonsense and then for whatever reason I've watchhed a couple of them so now they just keep showing them to me. And's full of AI slop right now. Yeah a lot of AS slob, like it's not even clear And it's not labeled also clearly whether it's been made with AI or not. So often So essentially it's leading to a complete loss in trust where when I see something, I don't even know if it's real anymore. And it's going to get worse. Yeah, it's going to get worse. T too the extent that you're going to like your default would be that this is AI And then like you're going to have to go through multiple layers to finally verify if it was real Um, And u And even like verified accounts post a lot of AI stuff. So it's not about like whether the account is verified by Meda or or whatever, right. So I think u Fundamentally, I feel like okay, the way I think about it is What are pieces of technology did not exist would be a really bad thing for the world and water piece of technology did not exist wouldn't even matter And I feel like social media is more to worwards a second You know searching for information and answering questions and like getting you know, AI still like do things for you help you learn new things faster. All that stuff is some we need more of that because it supercharges our curiosity where itass like brain dot feeds with AI slop It doesn't actually supercharge our curiosity. It actually curbs our curiosity. so If we believe that if you believe in the curiosity premium idea We need to encourage things that superchge our curiosity and discourage things that curb our curiosity. Do you anticipate a time where we recognize the dangers of algorithms and there is some discussion to either curb them or allow people to have control over them in a real meaningful way, like you could dictate maybe through AI, even that there's an AI interface to your algorithm that understands your particular emotional needs, your curiosity, like only show me this. This is what I'm interested in. Carpentry and basketball games. Yeah. Sh me those things. Yeah. I don't want I don't want to see Who's getting divorced? I don't give a fuck about this Yeah Here's the thing. you can still customize on most of these social apps You know, if it'll be deeply buried somewhere in the setting somewhere you can you can go and say stuff, but The reason it's buried is because once you you always have to say it or like it's the starting entry point for your experience there. your engagement time would go down because once you consume the content that you really want, you would go back to your work, which is what you really need to be doing. But that doesn't help them sell more ads And so the incentives are not aligned. And so Elon has this really good metric he talks about where It's like The total amount of unretted minutes spent on the app should go up Let's it's hard to measure, it's hard to measure It's more like a pre the right metric This metric is also why it's hard to make money on ads if you care about this metric, which is why X doesn't really make a lot of money on ads compared to Instagram or YouTube Because u you're kind of like optimizing for interesteresting there, like It doesn't mean exXcess has everything right? There's a lot of chaos, there's a lot of memes, there's a lot of like weird shit going on there as well in general, social media is not necessarily like I think it's terrible for people. but It also provides you with a way better understanding of what's going on in the world than has ever existed before. X particularly X particularly. Because it's It's a place for like discourse It's a text based app more than a video based app, right So u Naturally, like people tend to engage in discussions and debates and You know, there's a lot of curious debates going on there and a lot of interesting viewpoints expressed by people So I think In terms of the unregreted minutes,'s actually one of the better social media apps But apps that are purely based on like video our images and largely video these days I think that's just, you know, just trying to get your Eyeballs and time. Yeah, those are the mind numbers. Yeah. They just numb your mind. mean It's depressing. when you go to a metro and you just see people just scrolling through their feed. Nobody Everybody doing it. You look the entire car. everyveryone's doing it. It's just insane. Yeah. It's weird. Yeah. I always say that if there was a drug that existed and made people stare at their hand for six hours a day, everybody would be like, get that out of here. Yeah. But that's essentially what we're doing Because like most of what people are looking at most of the time, they don't even remember. Yeah. They're just scrolling through this thing. It's rarain root. It's grainedot. It curbs your curiosity Yeah I mean, Apple has these settings in different apps. Have you tried this where you can set the timer for every app. No, I just use discipline. I don't I don't engage very much anymore. I very I dip my toe into X every day for a few seconds. I go, what's everybody mad at? What's going on? Wh stole this? who how much corruption' here? who got killed there? Okay, byy And then I just check out. I don't want to do it And Instagram to me is just nonsense. It's I just look at that every now and then for nonsense and occasionally something interesting. Really YouTube is my main go to thing Yeah, because YouTube is my most unregtted minutes. Yeah. YouTube for me is always interesting. There's always like some cool thing on cosmology. there's some I watch fights on YouTube, I watch professional pool matches. That's what I do for the most part. That's where I really like find my actual interests and fulfill my curiosity. Long form content is what human mind should be trained to consume more of. Whether it's books, whether it's like You know, Yeah thirty minute videos explaining something Mhm And you need to train your mind to actually complete it. That's actually the biggest problem of the younger generation, the more They are the realels experience short form video U they're unable to actually like make long videos anymore. That's true, but also at the same time, the rise of podcasts is happening. Yeah And's great It's great. So there's it's not it's not universal. It's like there's a lot of people that don't find fulfillment in all the dooms growlling and all the nonsense. Yeah they really do want. Yeah. I'm particularly just focused on the younger generation. I'm sure like people like us can adapt to like, okay, let's say maybe we have a temporary addiction to social apps and we can But a lot of the young people are the people like, I meet kids like at the mall that are eleven that listen to my podcast. Really? Yeah. wow. I know, it's nuts They go, I love your podcast. who lets you listen. Get out of here. No, I'm always joking around about it. That's really cool. But no, there's a lot of like particular like young boys that come to me all the time that are interested in it That's amazing. I love it. I love it because then they're going to get exposed to some interesting ideas. and it'll also encourage them to have those kind of conversations with each other. Right Yeah Wh whose podcast do you listen to I loved Tim Dyls. He's probably my favorite because it's the most accurate and also satirical and hilarious view on everything that's going on in the world terms of like warar and world news and culture shit and he's my favorite He was just on here yesterday I fucking love that guy to death. He's so funny. He's so crazy. It's like His mind works in such a unique way and it's developed because his podcast is different where he very rarely has guests. So most of the time it's just him ranting and his producer laughing. And he's the best ranter that's ever lived. I don't think there's anybody that's even close. He's the goat. like There's like, I don't think there's any argument. Every comedian agrees Like as far as like just the ability to just sit in front of a microphone and rant, like Bill Burd does it well. He's good at it. There's a few other guys that are good at it No one's as good as Tim He's the most consistently entertaining. And then for just m not mindless, but like to escape, I listen to a lot of archery shows and hunting shows. Whether they're talking about different tactics in hunting or different chniques in archery, new equipment and new innovations Archery is an interesting thing because Every year bow manufacturers make a better bow and like tiny little engineering changes of these bows. It's a weapon that's been around for Who knows how many thousands of years, but what the And you're able to feel those improvements. Oh yeah. you feel the difference. Every year Hoyt puts out a new bow and every year I'm like, Motherfucker they did it again It's better. So just Tiny changes, less vibrations in the hand, more balance in the shot you know, more forgiving in terms of accuracy I love that stuff. So I get really fascinated by engineering, really fascinated by automotive engineering. I'm really interested in like that's another thing where like every year people figure how to make a car that can hold more G's on a skid pad that can get around a track quicker. Like every year they're battling to see who can get around the Nerbber ring quicker And what are they doing? They're adding horsepower, increasing suspension travel and suspension tuning rather, and making them more compliant or making them stiffer and making them more adjustable and then like higher compounds and I'm just interested in anything that where someone's working on something and getting better at something or G getting new information. I love history podcasts. I listen to a bunch of history podcasts. That's most of the time when I'm if I'm listening to something, I either want to be entertained or I want to be educated. Educational. Yeah. And that's entertain What about you? What kind of stuff do you listen to? I mean, I listen to your stuff. I listen to Lex. There's this guy I mean, you know, you might you had him on like recruan, of course. Sure. Yeah, yeah. loveve that guy. Yeah, he's awesome. I listen to his stuff Um, And u I mean, I also watch like some interesting videos about concepts, I don't understand There is this YouTube channel, Veritashium You should check it out. What is it called? Veritashium how did it spell that We eat R I T A S E U M Vertitosium. What does it mean I think is this someone's name No Veritos just means like seeking truth kind of thing. Oh Yeah, yeah. ye, yeah. twenty point nine million subscribers Yeah Iree a lot of people agree. So they make all these very interesting videos about like stuff that you know, you would be curious about, but you never actually bothered to ask that or learearn more about and explain some of the most under undernderstood companies all like phenomena. And u I just love watching it you know,'m this is kind of like my idea of doom scrolling. Like I like I like watching like twenty videos at once. Yeah, I am going to subscribe to it right now. It's pretty cool Farit tas, E and explains all these like fun concepts that are You know You take it for granted, like, okay, why is Google Maps really fast? like okay It'll tell you what's going on, how the data is used across so many different people at once. and All these different CIA's new tech doesn't make sense. Eactly. We were just talking about that yesterday. We were doubting it You know, the heart murmur thing, do you know about that? No. So the pilots that were downed in Iran, they said that they have this technology that allows them, I think they could use it up to seventy miles and they could detect a very unique heart rate. L your heart rate is different than my heart rate. They could know it's you. You could be hiding in the mountains and they could find you from seventy miles away with this technology a lot of people like Beams or waves or something? Well, it's called what is it called quantum magnetometry? is that what they call it I think that's where it was Remember we looked at up yesterday. They're using the word quantum and not explaining what they're doing, like how they're doing it and you're like, okay, is that real? or Is this some invented horseshit to cover the fact that they have some very sophisticated satellite imagery where they can have a detailed map of literally the entire surface of the world. They know exactly where people are, but they don't want our enemies to know that they have this capability So they're making up something. I see. That was my suggestion yesterday. They're like maybe they're fulls shit Because the whole thing seems nuts. What is it called Quantum magnetometry. Okay, what does that mean? you tell me I don't know. Exactly. Yeah. So This guy He's saying it doesn't make sense Yeah, and a lot of people say it doesn't make sense. L it doesn't seem to vibe with anything that we know that we can dory Yeah. firstirst time hearing it. See the pull up the decpt this description, the official description of what this stuff is capable of So this is supposedly some very advanced CIA tech that allowed them to locate this down pilot interestnteresting Maybe Or maybe there's something else going on. Or maybe there's some other methods that they use that they don't want the enemy to know about Maybe some beacon these guys have on them. Yeah, I guess what's the incentive for CI to actually describe how the technology works Yeah, zero. Yeah. Why would they tell you that? Yeah. Why would they tell you they even have that? That's crazy Yeah And then Jammy had a good point. the capabilility is insane detecting your Heart rate seventy miles away is just how insane. Yeah, how And when they throw the word quantum in things, I was going, h, what happened with that White House announcement Sorry keep Yeah, the the memember There's Q news coming soon and then And like intestine. sounds for quantum Oh, is that what it is I thought they just announced a bunch of investments in a bunch of quantum companies. Maybe that's taking a puruit. Yeah. IBM was getting some Funding or whatever M So this quantum magnetometry, can you pull up a description of what it is? I started looking up Sorry. I I was asking too many questions at the same time Quantum sensor help rescuers Yeah. So this is it Ghost Surmur. Yes, that's what it's called. Purported surveillance technology utilizes long range quantum magnetometry. What is that Quantum magnetometers measure extremely faint magnetic fields, including the body's natural electromagnetic signals, by tracking changes in the energy states of atoms or subatomic particles This technology reportedly uses microscopic defects in synthetic diamonds When illuminated by a laser, these centers are hypersensitive to tiny magnetic fluctuations. The heart signal. whileile human heartbeats produce a magnetic field that is extremely weak around fifty to one hundred Pico Tesla' typically degrades over very short distances So the Ghostburnber deployment They reportedly used ghost men were doing a mission in southern Iran to pinpoint the location of a downed American airman using hiding rather intense mountainous terrain By mounting these quantum sensors into a helicopter, the system purportedly registered the pilot's heartbeat from afar Do that sound like horshit I mean, not, it doesn't sound foolish shit, but like the part that sounds surprising to me is how they're able to deal with all this like distance and attuation across the distance. Right and all this interference and they claim to use AI for that, but nothing is really described on how they use it So if they're not describing how they use it, why are they even telling us they have it like there's a lot of skepticism on it. Yeah. Laws of physics, physicists point out that the heart's magnetic field is a million times weaker than the Earth's. Detecting it at a range of miles rather than centimeters defies currently published peer reviewed physics alternative explanations suspect that while quantum sensors were likely on board, they were probably tracking the radio waves of a survival beacon the metal in the pilot's equipment or using traditional thermal infrared and radar capabilities rather than detecting a raw heartbeat via magnetic fields. I do remember seeing a different part of a when that story happened back in April, someone did report on like one of the military websites that there was a survival beacon that they used to track And the whole quantum camer stuff is like nonsense. Yeah, I saw that too. No one wants to report that because it's not fun Right. No, the ghost murmur thing is awesome fun. And if that is real, like boy You can imagine a world one hundred years from now with at Israel So it's exciting. Oh yeah, one hundred years is a long time for this to be real. Yeah hundred years, they probably got it down pat Th that's the problem you can't hide from the robot dogs, from bllack mare Yeah, no Do you ever while you're working in a, do you ever wonder like Is this the downfall of humanity? Is this a good thing to be worked on? Does you ever have like doom moments Um, Not on specific things I'm working on, but in general U I do worry about Lake how much, you know, you obviously want to like Stay in charge and, you know, be in control of your experience. be the one driving change and have a lot of agency for yourself. So I do worry that like It's all about like making sure everybody's ups skilled and understanding like where the future is headed and not being like only like dangerous apocalyptic messages And because it's very essential that human beings retain their agency and staying curious, right? L So if that stops being the case, if you start subscribing to the vision that okay, your jobs are done, you don't really have any meaning in the world and we'll pay you some dividends and you just sit at home and chill That is that is not a good thing So and I feel like there are not enough voices in AI that are actually saying anything different to that and I like like when Jensen was here, I think he was a little different. I think he tried to give a more positive Uh version where he said, Okaykay, like the radiologist thing, if okay all radiologists can take away they start doing different kind of work So I think we need to start looking at like, okay, like Okay, first of all guys, relax. you have a lot of you have one Premium skill, your curiosity. So let's figure out ways to channelize that. Let's change the way work is done in companies. let's change the way educational institutions run. Let's change the incentive structures And let's help you build new ideas and new companies. and explore things that are not even being considered. And the government should obviously like, know support all these initiatives. So that's what needs to happen more But what's happening actually right now is Okay, like, hey guys, you're all losers. You're going to lose your jobs and don't blame me becausecause I told you so And u and still give us money because we're still going to do it anyway And so that's what's happening more. and I think we should stop doing that. that's my opinion. Well, it is the problem is it's kind of a selfulfilling prophecy. and if you tell people that they're going to be a loser and you're going to life is over think that way inststead of giving them an understanding of like, look, this can open up new doors for you. can. And anyime there's any sort of disruptive technology, there's always the fear that it's going to go badly. Yeah. This was the case with The locomotive. This was the case with ye when the printing press was invented Yeah By the way, like I did some research on this where And the industrial revolution happened people got new ideas. Okay, like for example, when the industrial revolution happened Um Wh who came with the idea of a steel plw, John Deere. Until then we were using wooden flows to like for farming No farmer complained that, hey, like We need fewer farmers now because steel plow is able to do it more effectively No one complained You actually had more farms and more productivity, more crop yields and You were happier But isn't that just a regular tool as opposed to AI. Sure as as different It's not overnight going to become something that's capable of just running an entire multirillion dollar company on its own There are a lot of things that AIs cannot do. There's a lot of tacit knowledge in every company that AIs don't quite understand and there's a lot of new directions that you can just start working on that AIs are not well equipped to do because it doesn't have full knowledge about it and the knowledge about it is yet to be captured And some of that requires like human to human work and collaboration So we obviously have to gravitate towards what is scarce When AI makes the current labor that's considered scarce because that's where the money's going in commodity then we have to gravitate towards what is scarce. And the only way to do that is to seek things that we don't know about which is only somethingomething we can discover it through our curiosity. There's nothing else. Whatever we don't quite understand, well Whatever we don't know how to do well yet. evenven with the current capabilities of AI that's where we should pull our labor and workforce into So it needs more responsible messaging And that's not ite happening right I think it needs responsible messaging and then in the future, what it needs is like real direction in terms of like letting people find their curiosity and find these paths of interest and find something to do with themselves. that doesn't involve whatever theirre previous occupation that's irrelevant now. That's tr I think like passion for people is something that not a lot of people would be able to answer out of the out of the box Like if you go and ask them, what is your real passion And the only thing they've known in life is to just climb up career ladders and make more money That's going to actually take them a while to even discover Right And which is why it's so important to get kids off on the right start. Yeah. that's that's the hope. that's that's our hope for the future is the kids. The kids are bond curious. They don't need to change themselves to be curious. Right. The adults who probably already are like Because of this knowledge working who kind of curb their curiosity and try to fit into the existing system It might be a little hard for them to adapt, but the kids, I think they don't have this problem So I'm actually optimistic about the future long term because The future is all centered around whoever is like very young today What do you think about this idea that universal basic income is going to be required Some form of it is good it's like a dividend. I almost think of it as a dividend If a lot of spend mostost companies are currently doing today on like payroll, which is paying a knowledge worker for a certain task Think of knowledge work is basically taking information and transforming it into an artifact And it's messy and complicated. Let's assume that's being done by AI So obviously, companies will start spending more on compute instead of payroll It's just a reallocation of like spend or budget. Similar to like what happened in advertising industries where most of your advertising budgets went to like television and like billboards and then now it's starting to go to Google and Instagram and YouTube and all that So When that happens,, obviously like, The AI companies are going to make a lot of money and people who help Part of creating it or either directly or indirectly would want have some role to play in that ecosystem And a good way to involve them is through giving them some ownership in the company So a shareholders, If you get dividends from the profits generated by the AIs It's not a bad thing But But that shouldn't be the only thing Right. So this is similar to like people that live in Alaska, they get a check because correct Alaska Alaska get Alaska does this And it's not a bad thing as long as they are doing some other things alongside It could lessen the burden. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And if people are interested in still being part of the AI industries, they go do things that AIs are not able to do today And's that's been the case before. like when industrial revolution started U the United Kingdom actually started like like like projects around building railroads And that gave a lot of people who were in the carttage industries new jobs So there are going to be a lot of new projects to just likekay, like, what if we want to reimagine the government itself where the government runs largely on AI Yeah, that was my next question. Yeah. So then we need people for that Yeah because this is a legacy industry. It's not it's not about the capabilities not being there It's about working through the legacy and bureaucracy to like actually deploy and implement this. inside the most largest institutions in the country And that's going to need a new set of kill workers to go do that. So some people who might be working at Microsoft or something today might actually end up working for the United States government because Microsoft may not need them especially for like, you know, internally deploying AI or selling AI to their customers, but the government needs them And if the government can pay them well and it's a fulfilling job to find some meaning for like doing something good for the country, it's not a bad thing So I think like just like in the industrial revolution where we had new projects because the demand for AI was so big We're going to start seeing some new projects being created in AI as well when the capabilities is advanced enough that they can replace knowledge workers That's the Rsy scenario It's not as rosy. like a real world is messy. A lot of things are still done through trusting other human beings Nobody's like blindly trusting AIs, AI still make a lot of mistakes I know a lot of people are hesitant to the idea of AI running government, and I get it but also Look at what the people are doing Look at how much corrption there is, how much fraud and waste. Imagine if all fraud, waste, and corruption was instantaneously eliminated I mean, that was what Eon tried to do with Doge, right? And I think the bottleneck there was just discovering how slow It is to do things. He's not used to running the slow And also how much resistance Yeah there is so much gph. correct Yeah. so Honestly, like More than AI, the government is running a lot of legacy software stack. because a lot of these legacy enterprise companies just created these multi decade or like year contracts that are hard to get out of And the way they do that is to sell it at a much larger discount And like, you know, like if you're on like a specific Oest, you're not allowed to change this for like ten years You have to use the same sort of software All this people you hired only know to use that tool So it takes time to actually change and implement new things, leave alone AI. if you just wanted to like move everybody from Windows machines to like Mac machines Good luck with that. It's going to take a lot of time the state of the system And so that has nothing to do with technology. And so to do things in such messy systems, you still need people. We still need people to navigate all these changes It's not about the capability of technology, it's more about how the system is structured And that's why I still feel there will be new jobs that maybe you know, there's a lot of new projects to be done. Maybe some good leader actually wants to change the system and is willing to be patient about it. like You know, over a five to ten year horizon. If you take ten years to actually like run majority of the government processes on AIs. It may seem slow to you today, but In the gnd scheme of things that's actually good for the country And that's still going to need a lot of nice engineers to go work on these projects. So they're not going to lose all their jobs. There's going to be some displacement. There's going to be some new projects, there's going to be new priorities But it'll keep going, the system will keep going because that's just how historically things have been When you think about the future of AI and you think of this So what do you think about AGI in particular? you think about something that could potentially make better versions of itself. self replicating. Yeah. And then how far does it go? Like Yeah. so that is the that is the ultimate form of I think some people in Silicon Valley have started calling that as ASI So when you see the word ASI being thrown around like People kind of think of ASI as an AGI that can recursively self improve itself So that's going to be there's going to be no limits to how smart can get. Right And u I used to think that ASI is bottlenecked by power because You need a ton of compute for this model to keep on training itself and running its own rollouts and collecting data and then going and updating itself. You could imagine that once the algorithm is correct the ASI could be tasked with just making itself more efficient to Where improvement doesn't just mean capability improvement, improvement could also mean power efficiency And that way the AS recursive safe ASI that is improving itself also makes itself more compact and more efficient and it can run on less compute. So that would be the ultimate project in AI. Think of it as almost as the last project in AI is basically cracking workers who suffer from perment Once you crack that it, you don't have anything else to work on U In practice, I think what's going to happen is because information is so muddled and fragmented and liivving in disjointed systems, just the way we have constructed our messy real world. It's going to be hard to point even a recursively self improving AI at some metric and say go improve this Oh it go reduce inflation by five percent That'll be awesome. if you can task an AI to do that. If that's the job of the government to just reduce inflation have a deflationary effect on society and make goods and services a lot more abundant and efficient It's going to have to deal with a lot of messy legacy systems if the task is to go improve the healthcare We good luck, like who's going to deal with all the compliance of actually implementing these changes inside hospitals. Most hospitals are still using legacy software because that's The software provider has lobbied the government in a way where only they're allowed to do that What a stupid bottlenck. Exactly. So a lot of the bottlenecks in actually having AIs just take over and massively improve the human society and O hospitals, our legal systems, our government systems, most of the payrolls going into. Is this bottled by a lot of compliance and regulation And so that's why I feel human beings are still necessary to effffect the change becausecause these laws and regulations were built for us And it also seems like we have to demand that those systems be usurped hundred percent. And we need the help of AIs to rewrite all these laws It's going to be humanly impossible to go and change One specific line here and there Right, And then you got to have a bunch of software companies that are lobbying to try to stop that from happening Yeah. that's why like this messiness And this need for getting all people on the same page and actually steering the society in a positive way Our jobs would probably be more steered towards that problem solving at a different level of abstraction, maybe more need for EQ more need for actually like understanding differences of opinion and still like leadership quality ability to understand people and ability to convince people Th These are the skills that will be even more important inable where like actual work can be done by AIs but aecting the change in our society in our country still needs human beings because the systems are messy It's a weird world we're in right now. Yeah It's never been weird. That said, There's a lot of things that can still go wrong when you so much power to you know, like specific companies And they deploy all these bots and then Anbody can use them and weird ways, you don't even know if like you're talking to a real person anymore They're like people who just run AI responses and chat with like five hundred people at once And that's like a whole business And so I think it's going it's going to take a lot of adjustment Well, another piece of adjustment that a lot of people are coming to grips with is that this is a new part of our conversation and that In twenty twenty, like when I first moved here, AI was never discussed. Yeah. It was not a thing. Yeah. I mean, we knew about it. We knew about AI. but it wasn't like you wasn't a huge part of the cultural discussion of what the future holds for us. Now it is. it is central. Yeah. And in that short amount of time and just six years really makes you wonder because we know how technology progresses exponentially. what it's going to look like six years from now Yeah You' definitely my prediction is twenty twenty eight election debates are going to be largely about AI. Wow AI, energy crisis. Power, power People are going to care about all these things Because AI is no longer a thing that is new. It's part of all our lives. Everyone's using some form of AI in some ways And u It's not as dangerous as people thought. It's an amazing tool for like doing work and asking questions and learning things and all these things. When used correctly. Yeah ye can also be used incorrectly , like everything Like everything. So it's far more powerful that incorrect usage can cause serious damage Like like for example, people kids were using AIs for like companionship Right. Crazy things are happening there. Crazy things are happening. Not good. Yeah. it's even it's as dangerous as are probably more dangerous in social media And it's also scary that social media companies want to build more of these kind of like companionship apps becausecause they know that, okay, their only job is to get you engaged more and that's the only way to sell more ads and make more money And clearly companionship is a way to get you engaged more. And so that's dangerous. if ads start being part of like AI chats. Yeah, because then if and that ends up working And then all these chat bxers is going to be sycophins that just tellell you stuff that you want to hear It's also it's an induish indistinguishable facsimile to a real person Like they communicate like a real person. Right. So you really think you have a relationship with this. Right And and it truly screws with your mind It's hard to like decouple and like it takes a lot of time to recover if you want to like you know, unplug And so the business model incentives are not well aligned to humanity. Did you see that AI companion that they developed that was at the Consumer Electronics show in Vegas this year. which one It's like a hot Asian lady. I see Yeah, ye these are the weird kind of projects that are going on Yeah, it's a hot Asian lady that talks to you. Yeah. and you know, she talks to you through AI and right now it's just a kind of a crude sort of robot, but ye you could see where it's going. You can see where it's going E Makina Yeah, it's going Right there Yeah Yeah, that movie was az Quite far ahead of his time. Really? Yeah. That was That's one of my top ten favorite movies of all time. It's underrated actually because people like reviews online say it's not as good, but I liked it. I loved it. Yeah. I thought it was fantastic. I like it better than her Yeah, her I lost her after a while. I'd shut it off lost my attention. I'm sure it's good. It was a wrong time for me to watch it Yeah. But X Mon and I've seen it like five times. I fucking love that movie It's just soap. I don't want to give anything away But it it's so incredible and so bleak and so yeah in the relationship that he has with that the hot one. Yeah. Yeah You believe it. You're like I I'd be right there with them. You know it's too confusing to our system to have something that looks exactly like the thing that you desire that is actually interested in you. It just happens to all your datab. Yeah knowows too much about you, knowns how to pull your strings. Yeah. Bless, man V very fascinating discussion. Yeah. I'm gl we did it. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thanks for having an awesome platform. Perapplexity has been great. We really love using it here at the show. It's made the show more interesting. It's cool. Thank you. It's very fulfilling because like we want the app to be used by curious people. L that if we want to lift the ceiling of what? our population can be, you know Not everyone is like fully curious all the time, but We're all born with it. So at some point in time the system curbs it from us. There should be more apps to get us back to what we're naturally good at. It's a fascinating tool for technology or for curiosity, rather, because to be and it's seamless way we use it on the show because there's always a question. Yeah.'s always it comes up so often. like throw it in perplexity.'s find out what's up. Yeah. So it's been great for us. So thank you. Thank you. All right, my pleasure. Bye everybody.