Family History and Political Outlook

Hello there, welcome to a bonus! Wow, that was loud. Installment of the Louis Thheroux Podcast. Lucky you For this special bonus episode, I'm delighted to be joined, I won't keep doing that, by a BAFTA and Golden Globe winning visionary filmmaker who goes by the name of Jorgos Lanthemos . Why? Because that's his name. Over the past fifteen years, Jorgos has become one of the most distinctive voices in modern cinema with films like The Acclaimed and Garland did Poor Things that had Emma Stone in it. It was like a surrealist steampunk reimagining of the Frankenstein myth with a woman as the monster . And the favourite with Rachel Weiss and Olivia Coleman. That was sort of about Queen Anne, wasn't it? She raced lobsters in her hall. And a lot of it was filmed with a fisheye lens. He's got a very amazing, very amazing. Listen to my language. I should be a film critic. He's got an amazing eye. Has he? He uses funny lenses. I already sound like a moron. If your gosh is listening to this. And that's just a small sampling of Yorgos' Euvre. There is also Dogtooth, which was the first of Yorgos' films to put his name on the map and the first one I saw. Darkly comic, you might say, about the imprisonment of a family by their father in their house. And many more. Yorgos has a coterie of frequent collaborators including Colin Farrell, Olivia Coleman, Willem Defoe, Friend of the Pod , and Emma Stone, future friend of the pod, she'd be a great guest, who he worked with most recently in his film Bogonia, the BAFTA nominated and Oscar nominated. It tells the story of two conspiracy theorists who kidnap a CEO, kind of a tech boss . I won't say bro, it ''causes woman, played by Emma Stone, after they become convinced she's a space alien . I enjoyed it very much, and it resonated with themes I'm interested in to do with things like conspiracy theories , bizarre or paranoid thinking, um, but also the emotional resonances of uh toxic relationships, 'cause it's partly about that. We recorded this conversation in December last year while Jorgos was in town promoting Begonia. A quick warning: this conversation contained strong language and adult themes . All that and much else besides coming up. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. We do a lot of our shopping these days online. I've often thought in another life I could have had a blossoming online shop on Shopify. What would I sell? Maybe my chart topping books, some TLTP bingo cards for the Die Hard Podcast fans. I could finally centralize all that bootleg merch pillows, cushions, t shirts, cards in one place. And where would it be? On Shopify. If you want a better experience shopping online for you and your customers, Shopify is the answer . It's the commerce platform behind millions of your favorite thriving businesses like Gymshark and even Mattel , the international toy making conglomerate. But it doesn't matter how big or small your business is, the big bonus of using Shopify is that they'll help you every step of the way. From designing your first website to finding customers, marketing new products, managing inventory, shipping internationally and beyond. Important for my many fans overseas. They're the ultimate business partner, and the best part of all, you can do all that in one place. See few er shopping carts go abandoned on those websites. You know what I mean? I can't deal with this. I'm gonna stop doing it. And earn more with Shopify. Sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk slash Louis That's shopify dot co dot uk slash Louis Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it. No, I'm uh very happy to. I'm uh you know, as I said, like I'm a huge fan. And I actually don't know what I'm doing here because I'm probably the least known person who've ever interviewed for this. Well, I you I I you're on Instagram and I was surprised to see how few how few followers you have. But you're not posting a lot of personality. Well, because I just did a proper account because it was an account that everybody thought it was me and it wasn't. Really? And I was I I just decided like let's just do a proper account. And so I just started it. Congrats. Like a couple of weeks ago. Listen, I'm a big fan as well. I mean not as well. I am a big fan. I'm I think we'll cut the bit out where you say you're a fan. Um no you never do. I'm I'm listening to your podcast. Maybe we won't then um and actually uh I've seen almost all your films. You've got one out at the moment called Bogonia. Indeed Obviously there's a tone that infuses your work. Uh it's been characterized lots of different ways. All of them end up being somehow reductive. Sometimes it's called dark, absurdist bleak maybe, harrowing, torturous. Sometimes they're characterized as being films that demand well that they're punishing in some way. Speaking of which like I don't see them. Hilarious ? Have you? I didn't say that one. David Lynch called uh Dog Tooth uh a fantastic comedy. See? He gets it. He gets it. So the one I watched first was Dog Tooth. I watched it in 2009. Without getting too deep into spoiler land, uh I'm sure people have the people that have watched that film that will The ones who haven't seen have stopped listening already. Yeah, exactly. It's um a a dad and his wife who've kept his three kids more or less locked away behind closed doors, deceiving them into believing that life on the outside of their of their remote house is either is dangerous. And in fact maybe there isn't much life out there. But either way, they're now in their mid-twenties and they've never really left the family domicile. Yeah. Um the opening I rewatched it last night. Oh. The opening scene is he's they're listening to recording from their dad. Do you remember this? Yeah . You wrote it in directly. Actually I remember it because we just did an uh uh a new uh uh restoration, like a new digital transfer of the print fill of the negative. Uh and I kind of rewatched it. What's the opening scene? The opening scene is like a montage, actually. It's like uh uh there's like a close-up of the mother pressing play on tape the tape machine, and there's uh like a list of words and their meaning. Yes. So one of the words is C. C, yeah in Greek thalassos. Thalassa, yeah. Thalassa. And they define it as as armchair? Yes. That's and there's a couple other words, like excursion. Yeah. It's defined as I don't remember. Toaster or something like that. Yes. They're all misdef the wrong definitions. And you realize this is a world where the grown-up children are having to be more or less reprogrammed with the wrong meaning of words so they don't make us too many Yeah. So because you know the parents think that it might have slipped a couple of times a word or something and now they have to give it a new meaning for the children so they don't know what excursion is because they'll be asking for one so they don't want them to leave the house. So it was like a way of you know introducing the rules of you know this microcosm. Yeah. Um was the same way I don't know if you remember the the airplanes because it is they're under a flight path. Yeah So how do they explain that there's planes going over how do they explain that and I when like why don't they throw them little planes 'cause they see them as a little up in the sky and then they'll just go, Oh, a plane fell from the sky and then they have it as a toy. So it was just like trying to solve those problems that those parents would have with ephimis that we wrote the script together and Philippu. Yes, um, that I've written many films with and he's a very good friend. I think the idea just started from myself and I thim is like making observation about especially about Greek society and how families are structured and you know there w there I think there m might still be I think yo younger generations are a little bit different, but like children would stay with their parents until they're they were very old. Um and it was, you know, kind of fascinating for us to probably Mediterranean as well. Ephi I wonder if I'm gonna make it I'm gonna go out on a lemon w uh it this is risky. Boys would be cooked for by their mums until they married and then their wives would cook for them. Exactly. That's the thing. Yeah. Another fix is sometimes they eat fish and you're like, well how are they explaining the fish? And then you see the dad arrive with fish in a plastic bag and he puts them in the family swimming pool. Yeah. And then goes out wearing scuba gear with a a dart gun. A harpoon like a harpoon, no like it's called Sub Aqua I don't know what you mean. Spearar g gun. Spe un. That's it. You're not a fisherman, are you? No. And and so it has to go through the charade of he's like, Oh, some fish have appeared in the pool. Presumably they think they've spontaneously generated. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. It you know, and it raises uh something that's true for a lot of your films. You know, in a way that was a that was the film that um broke through for you, although it wasn't your first film. But well two things I suppose. One is the how becomes more interesting or in some way you'd work more with the idea of how is this happening rather than why is it happening. Mm-hmm. I don't I think you're not that interested in the motivation. Correct me if I'm wrong. No. Why is the dad doing it? Yeah. Why is the wife going along with it? Yeah, I think that like those are things that are some of them easily deduced from what's going on and I find it more engaging to ask for for from the viewer to do that work instead of like serving everything on a plate. I I enjoy that more, you know, when I watch something or listen to something or read something. So yeah, it's more about the the behavior and how it affects people and how you know, we can investigate the things that we consider as given, if they were slightly different, what would that mean? And just engage in that kind of conversation about you know how we've structured society, relationships, and the world, testing it in ways. And you know, creating this situation w that tests that instead of saying, oh, you know, this is what families do and this is how children react and there you go. I mean you knew that already. It's it's testing something. I mean I don't want it to make it sound like you're performing an experiment. I I guess there's two things. I've fallen in that trap to say that a few times. Yeah, I don't think that's worth it. Yeah, no, it's not I'm I'm just trying to explain, you know, that that we're building these rules, which is like an experiment . Um You often work with a closed precinct, but not always, but in which something's a little off kilter. I mean what strikes me is that the audience is always a little bit in an intriguing way left out. So for example, it's 55 minutes in of Dog Tooth that uh the word dog tooth is used, and basically you get a clear more than halfway through the film, you get a clear understanding that the world outside is dangerous. Until then, you're like, why don't they just leave? And then you get little breadcrumbs. Uh I don't think you ever fully arrive. You know, which again I think is one of the reasons I engage with these films is because they don't feel fully resolved. It's not like you then do like, oh now it all makes perfect sense. Yeah, no. You ha you have to make sense for it yourself. Like if you r re watched the ending now, it's very much that. And I I remember it was the f first time that I talked to people after watching the film, and I realized that it really depends a lot on the person that watches the film to make up a lot of stuff and the the way that my films kind of demand that. But I remember even people saying , well, we're gonna spoil it, but that's fine. Like when you know that the daughter that escapes goes in old theest daughter. The oldest daughter that escapes up knocking out her own canine. Canine, yeah. And in order to fulfill By the way, dog tooth is a made up word, right? It doesn't really exist. That's not what you call your gain. Correct. In English we don't call it your dog tooth. No, no, I don't think so either. I I think I like that that in the English title would be a made up word. It kind of made sense with the film. Um but people have told me like she's gonna come out of the trunk, right? Because he was holding At the end he she she t knocks her tooth out. She finally leaves. She's allowed to, because her tooth come out, in theory. As long as she gets in the back of the car, he drives off, they can't find her. He's outside his place of work, she's in the trunk, and there's like a ten second shot of the trunk. And you don't she's in there, but you nothing's happening. Yeah. But people have told me, but it's fine, it's gonna get out because she was holding a hammer or a screwdriver , and she wasn't. No. But people that really wanted her to escape saw that. Yeah. Which is like one of the you know, r revelations about like how people watch films and how they project their own people really want answers. You in I think it's in pulp fiction where there's a car and it's never revealed what's in the boot of the car. Oh yeah, they open the then there's like a glow or something. And there's endless threads on the internet about oh what's in there? It's actually someone's soul or some stolen gold or and you just sort of think like, no that we it's never we don't need to know because because we don't know. It's a yeah, it's a narrative device of some sort. Like a yeah. Um because in a related sense, uh I can't find my quote, but it was a New York Times quote where it was basically saying and it seemed to be implied almost as a criticism like it it we it it was it's like is this documenting depravity or is it just being depravity like it's not clear whether he's interested in documenting it or interested in provoking by creating it. And I thought, well, that might be true, but I don't think that's a criticism. It's too intellectual for me. Oh, here we go. A.O. Scott in the New York Times says at times it seems as much an exercise in perversity as an examination of it. Well that's criticism. I think I know what you mean, but I don't think that's a problem. I can maybe I'm with you, yeah. You know what I mean? It's a bit like or I'm giving you something to make you uncomfortable. I'm trying to make you uncomfortable. Yeah, it's like the thing that I was I in the i initially I uh early on, like I felt weird listening to that I'm being provocative. And then I realized it's a good thing. Yeah. Like it you need to be provocate. Like, how else are people gonna be moved out of their seats yeah literally and uh metaphorically like move their minds a little bit to different directions or see things from a different perspective if you if you do don't provoke them. So I take it as a positive now. I would go further and say if there's some people who actively dislike one's work, I won't make it about you. Yeah. That's perhaps not a bad thing. Yeah, and I understood early on that that that would be weird. And that's why I had a weird reaction with the success of Dog Tooth in the beginning, because like I felt that the stuff that I make is not for everyone and that's fine and that there will be people that will hate it and people that will love it. And I understood that that's the kind of things I'm interested in. Not purposefully making people hate the work, but like it's just and the natural outcome of this kind of work that people are different. And also, especially if we talk about, you know, around the world, different cultures, different, you know, different upbringings, experiences and all that, like how can something that's provocative and interesting and different and relatively original uh be accepted and liked by everyone. Like that that wouldn't be right. So you don't want that really. No. So I made peace with that early on. What I was gonna say is uh it was it was 2009, it was a huge hit . Well Well it was a hit Well it did really well. I mean it cost what n next to nothing. Yeah, I mean those all the Greek films that we made, we kind of did it with, you know, five, ten friends and you know, we paid for the necessary stuff. U It was like what, 250,000 euros? Yeah, like something like that. That's not you couldn't even make a documentary for that. Well you could, but it would be Well not these days, I guess. But yeah, it was nothing. It's just like the the love of people that, you know, wanted to make films and especially at that time in Greece there weren't that many films being made. Like there there was no industry. I mean there still isn't. It's it has improved. But there there wasn't the notion of becoming a filmmaker in Greece when I was growing up. It was like a non-existent thing and that's why I I star ted by uh doing commercials and saying like at least I'll be doing something that I is similar to what I like, but I'll be able to earn a living. And yeah, we j at some point we just decided why don't we just go, you know, and make it like that with no money. You'd gone to film school, right? Kind of. In Athens? In Athens there's So if there's a film school, why is there no film industry? There's like a there's like a pr very small private film school. Now there's one uh at the university as well. But yeah, there there wasn't such a structure like when I was growing up there were like two or three, you know, older generation filmmakers. You might have heard of Theo Angelopoulos, for example, was the most the most well known one. Uh and it was them that they were making films and you know, they were using up all the resources of the Greek film center. So there was like no uh chance that a young filmmaker would like be able to be included in that. So there was a boom in our advertising in in Greece, like just before the crisis actually, if you can make a connection. Uh so like a lot of money being spent on commercials and you know like people who don't remember, what year was it? Was it two thousand eight? That I think might be a little bit too much money on the Olympics. Yeah, I think they were like generally spending too much money. It was the bubble of the what year was the Olympics? Two thousand and eight? Two thousand and four. Four. Two thousand and four. And the other one was that they said Greek people don't pay taxes. They said it's normal in Greece to not pay your taxes. There's there's a lot of that. Uh some of that that is part you know partly true, but I think there was a that bubble of uh you know banks, uh loans for g uh uh mortgages and things like that that kind of exploded. Um it was the the the era of uh mobile phones and all these companies coming in and like spending you know millions and millions and you know doing commercials and people buying stuff and getting houses and mortgages and there was like a whole thing going on. And I think that you know, a lot of these things led to uh the crisis well there and in other places around the world. Um but it was yeah felt quite hard in Greece. Yeah. But luckily by then you were soaring into your next stage of your career. I mean and you moved over here. Is that possible? No, I mean I probably exaggerate. But for a number of years. But like for a number of years I was doing like a you know, a commercial a week at least. But what I took from that was it's almost like the Malcolm Gladwell thing of ten thousand hours that you put so much time into making these in effect short films, that you mastered your craft in some way. Yeah, the tech the technical aspect of it. I think that's that was very helpful for us to decide that we didn't need that much in order to go and make a film if we wanted like if we gathered like these ten people that just wanted to make a film, you know, we didn't need lights, we didn't need makeup, we didn't need anything, you know, we would borrow stuff and we would um shoot in locations that they gave us for free. And you know, we could just make a film like that instead of not making anything at all and just being there and going like, oh, it would be so nice to make a film one day, you know, kind of thing. So that's how we made the three f first films in Greece and then yeah, after Dogtooth's uh relative success, I decided to move over here because at some point after making three films this way. I just felt that I if I was to continue making films, I I I needed to be able to make some choices instead of like just boring stuff and filming in the house that was free instead of the freedom of a bit more money and more more. A little bit more you know, control over aspects of the filmmaking. But dialing back, so you you grew up and you've talked about you were not a massive cinemast, you were quite sporty in fact. Your dad had been a basketball player professional, nationally known in Greece. Yeah. I can't remember you you gave a few examples like maybe you were watching Flash Dance, was it were you watching Back to the Future, just mainstream films. I grew up like yeah, with watching mainstream films, uh Indiana Jones and yeah. Yeah, well and then you had a sort of Damascene moment when you watched was it a Tarkovsky film? Probably I because I went to film school again like thinking, you know, I kinda like these films. I'm no I'm never gonna make a Spielberg film or anything. But like I you know, I can learn the craft and do commercials and, you know, do something like this. That's how I went to film school and then all of a sud den, you know, I I discovered, you know, Tarkovsky and Bresson and Cassavetis and you know those filmmakers, uh, Bunuel, and I that I had no idea about. And this other world opened for me. So it was relatively late. I mean like nineteen or whatever. And then when you were working in commercials all those years, were you continuing to educate yourself in film and increasingly think ing, wow, this may be something for me. Yeah. I I I used to uh watch a lot of films and read a lot. Like a lot of the stuff that I I learned and technically like was I getting you know magazines uh from like American Cinematographer for example that's like very technical about cinematography and uh all the stuff that I we weren't really learning in in film school. I was just, you know, reading about it and then I would be experimenting while we're making commercials and I go like we should do this process with the film. And and they were going like, are you crazy? We can't do this. We should, you know, do bleach by pass or whatever, and the labs would be like furious with this guy that wanted to do all those things. And so yeah, I had like a real uh thirst for it, but I I didn't really think that I was gonna actually make a film. It was just like getting to learn about these things and then of course watching films and contemporary films, you know, at the time, apart from the old ones that I discovered uh in film. Which ones were you aware of? Because it feels like Lars von Trio was doing interesting things at the time or Yeah, I guess it was uh maybe um Michael Haneke was of course. Yeah, Michael Haneke and uh maybe a pizza pong where is it a cool the Thai filmmaker? Yeah, timing young for example. That's a filmmaker? Yes. Oh Jesus . You're not writing these t things down. But like we we're we're recording this, so that's fine. I'll be writing them down. I I Who were those are those people you were watching at that time? So you were dipping into Asian. Well I mean to be honest, like my memory is so bad. Like but that was gradual, I guess. Like you know, getting into more obscure, more experimental sometimes they call them. I don't I don't really like that. No. Characteriz ation. They call them non-narrative. I don't like that either. I don't know. Some are and some aren't. Blue Velvet's narrative. Yeah, but like even what even eraser heads narrative. But but is why is does narrative need to be always linear? No. That's why I I don't love the yeah . Jean Luc Godard said a film needs to have a beginning, a middle and an end . But not in that order. Oh finish each other's sentences now . Okay . You when um Dog Tooth got the reaction that it did I think was nominated for an Oscar. It was, yeah. Wasn't it? Commiserations on on failing to win. Yes, thank you. Um It was a win that we even got nominated. Exactly. It's an honor to be nominated. I'm so sorry you lost your Oscar. I've lost many since then. Have you? Have you, yeah. Have you? You must have won a couple. No well, my people have won, like uh actors. Emma Stone won one. She has two, actually. Well, she has won two, not with me, with me involved in the film. Right. Uh she's won one. So that's you. Olivia Coleman one. Got one one for your favorite, yeah, with me. Those are yours. Yeah. I'll I'll claim. You should get joint custody. Well I got the the cards. Emma got the Oscar, I got the the card that was saying like Emma Stone winner. So she gave me the card. That w that's almost patronizing. That's almost a little bit insulting. Uh you've talked about that moment of arrival. You know, in Hollywood a bit like a vampire feeds on fresh blo Hi, Yorgos. Awesome to meet you. Big big fan. Uh w you talked about not enjoying that, surprisingly. You said I had a weird negative reaction to all the noise around dog tooth. Actors, meetings here in LA I, didn't know what I was doing there. This is you. I felt it was fake in a way . Well, I mean a lot of it was fake, like those meetings are extremely superficial most of the times. Um people And also you're already in a position to make movies you want to make, right? So in a way it's like what are they gonna do? Slot you into a franchise? We got an exciting project for you, Star Trek VII. Yeah. Ma I mean I wasn't really at the time. Like may after having made Dogtooth and being nominated for an Oscar, it was like there was an interest in what it was that I wanted to do next. And I did entertain the idea like going back to my roots as a teenager and go like should I make a born movie like for example that'd be fun. Literally. Literally yeah. Really? But like only for a little bit. Not really after seeing how the whole thing worked. Did you do a meeting for Bourne? I don't think I did a specific one . Um but I think like my agents were asking like what you know, what it is that you want to do and I it's like'm not make a born film. They were like uh popular A friend of mine who was very is and was a very talented documentary maker, and he made a string of ri you know successful documentaries and Hollywood came calling and they offered him dude where's my car two ? And he passed. He passed. But it's funny how you like you going to a different table in the casino. Yeah. How how how much are these chips worth? I think there is something interesting in that if you have the guts to do it. You know? Yes. Like if you go like, you know what, I'll try this. Yeah, but then do you remember when the guy m whoade the lives of others? I can't remember his name. That terrific German film went to Hollywood and do you remember what he made? Yeah, but that's not the same thing. Go on. He made the tourist for people who were interested in the punchline. Yeah. I don't think that the lives of others was in a way such a different film. Not to the tourists, just get don't get me wrong. But like I don't think it wasn't it was Chiming Young doing the tourist. Right. Is what I'm saying. Like his film was like uh you know a successful popular film that yeah was uh as they say narrative and you know, uh I think it ticked a lot of the boxes. But uh but even that I should make it, I do love that film. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But um and obviously when he made the tourist, like he didn't have any control over it the studios had. And that's what I realized. No, but the people themselves then made it kinda say it's terrible. So um but I I think that's what I realiz ed when when I flirted with the idea that you actually don't have any control. Like they want to s to kind of have you there as the new thing but and say, oh, this guy' dosing this, but like they wanna actually do it. Um so I I I realized it's n it's not for me and I just wanna keep making the films that I wanna make and have, you know, as much control as I c as I can, which I've I'm very lucky to have achieved. Like I've haven't made any film that I didn't have, you know, total creative freedom. Uh even that's hard to bear. I mean people that you know do difficult jobs hear that and say like, oh really? I was gonna say making films is difficult, but try taking out someone's appendix. Exactly. Yeah. What would be a better example? Try No, but that's like really hard. I think that's br brutal. Uh and we're saying, oh, we're making films, it's so difficult. And but it kind of it's weird that it is, and it does uh does affect us like deeply and profoundly, and it's the narrative that we built uh for ourselves and you know what we consider important and all that. But anyway, I I you know it's hard for for me because I've chosen to do this and you know this is all I have and it's it's life itself in a way. Um so although it might seem ridiculous to someone on the outside, I still do, you know, suffer making films. But not in a real, you know Because Not in the real world though. Of course. It's not it doesn't um that doesn't surprise me. It's not and it's obviously not suffering in a conventional physical sense. It's a kind of feeling of responsibility and you've been given an opportunity and not many people are in your position and you don't want to fuck it up. And you don't really have many people you can blame because to a great extent your cap No, no, and I've chosen that. Like I said, I have complete creative freedom, so yeah, it's all my fault. whatever I needed to do. What was your mo because you've talked about i in the past about how stressful you find it. How in some respects it's quite an unhappy. Emma Stone said he's really miserable while we're filming. You said, Yeah, it's insane . It's immense . Then the question was ha and it hasn't gone away over time, Stone. It's gotten worse. Lanthamos. You try to rationalize it. Why are you so upset? This is a movie. Of course, when you compare it with other things that are happening in the world, it's ridiculous, but for you in that moment, it's everything. It's gotten worse. Was begonia the most stressful, would you say ? I think so, but that might have to do something with the fact that I kind of made three films back to back without taking a break in between. You did poor things, kinds of kindness and begonia. You're very productive. Yeah. And not only that, they're all outstanding. Thank you. I think so. Yeah. Well, it means something to me . Well, I mean, less now that you didn't know most of the filmmakers that I mentioned. That's true. You might just be ripping them off. I'd see those and be like, it's he's just taking it all from I I was gonna say if I say that make up a name it'll sound like I'm being racist, so I won't do that. Don't Bogonia , uh it's about two guys, a guy and his cousin. The guy's played by Jesse Plemons, a tremendous actor who you've been working with a lot. And his brother, played by a neurodivergent cousin. What did I say? Brother. But you said co cousin, I think in the beginning. And it's cousin, but they've got a brotherly relationship. They do . They kidnap this isn't a spoiler, I don't think. The character played by Emma Stone. And she's a girl boss. I know that's a weird term, but that's sort of how it feels like she's got Cheryl Sandberg, the Facebook executive energy. She's like an Ubermensch or o of Silicon Valley, sort of Silicon Valley Tech sort. In fact, she works in the pharmaceutical business. And she's almost oddly composed, even the act of being abducted. Like a lot of Yorgos Lanthamo's films, a lot of times you're second guessing the reactions. No one's behaving exactly as you think they might and you so you're a little off balance, which partly i prevents them from feeling like victim narratives. It it would be easy to make trauma porn with these kinds of plot setups. Do you know what I mean? Oh look, that person's being horrific to that person and when are they going to escape? It's much more finely grained than that. She seems at times more in control than he does. Would you agree with everything I've just said? Everything. Feels like I'm a lawyer now. Nevertheless, on the night in question, um one of the things in my head was like as someone who's made documentaries about conspiracy theories? So the Jesse Plemens character's gone deep into the internet and he believes various conspiracy theories. He thinks Emma Stone is an alien. He does. And so I'm watching, thinking this is relates to th things I've been curious about. So the qu the first question I have is how interested are you in real versions of the things that take place in your films? Like do you research that? I know you didn't write Bogonia, but nevertheless. Uh I I research if I think there's benefit to it. Uh on this one, for example, I felt that well, first of all, the screenplay that Will Tracy wrote was, you know, already brilliant. Uh it was a full it was a fully uh developed piece of work. Yeah, because Ari Aster developed it with Lars Knut sen, their company, and they Ariaster who directed Midsommer and Hereditary. Okay. Is that right? Yes. You're a big I'm just helping the people. We've got people. It's not just you and me here. And Eddington, the latest one. Boys Afraid. Boys Afraid with Working Phoenix. Um so they they thought that I I might be interested in in it. Because why didn't direct it? I know I I don't really know. I think he was just w w was interested in other things. Someone said that th he wishes he directed it If it's true. There's probably some truth to it. Yeah. Um but because he was interested in it in the from the beginning because he he really loved the original film. I hadn't watched it. Save the Green Planet. Yeah. It's a Korean film. Korean film. I I didn't know of the film, so he was a fan. So that's how he got involved. So maybe he thought that as a fan he didn't want to, you know, make that film, but he thought it was a good idea, the premise of it and the concept of it, like to be transported to modern day Amer ica. So they thought I might be interested. So I and I was and I worked with Will Tracy a little bit on the script to just make it more, you know, my own. Will Tracy you had been a writer on succession. He's been a writer on succession, yeah. Uh great writer. So there was so much already there. And I kind of didn't wanna go like, oh, but there's this thing in real life, and should we make it more like this? And like I I felt reading it that it was like really strong, and I just concentrated on other stuff that you know I knew that I would do differently instead of like researching what the reality around it is. So when you say you you concentrate on the things that you can bring to the project, what is that? I don't know exactly. It's very it's very um instinctive. Like I there were like great characters, great dialogue, great premise . Um maybe structurally I do things differently. Or you know, even casting Aiden who's autistic like he wasn't uh written as an autistic person. Uh but I felt that it should be in a way. And it would make more sense. The whole thing would make more sense and it would be richer. And um you know, parts of the comedy of it or you know, like have the his background with his mother and those kind of uh like dream or flashback sequences, instead of like being expositional about it and just you know, things here and there, yeah, that I th I'd I'd do different ly. Uh but again it was a great script from the beginning just to be fair This episode is brought to you by Moneybox, the award-winning saving and investing app. Money's important. Why? Well, because it means freedom, freedom to enjoy your life. We're now in a new tax year, and as long as you're in the UK and over 18, you have a brand new ISA allowance. So you can save up to 2£0,000 and not pay any tax on the interest you earn. This is the last year that your cash ICER allowance is £20,000 before it's reduced for under £65 in April 2027. Handy to know. To make the most of it, check out Moneybox. Moneybox is trusted by over 1.5 million savers, and their customers rate them excellent on Trustpilot. So if you've been putting off sorting out your savings, now's the time. Open a moneybox cash ISA in the app or at moneyboxap dot com. It takes just a few minutes. ISA and tax rules apply. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. We do a lot of our shopping these days online . I've often thought in another life I could have had a blossoming online shop on Shopify. What would I sell? Maybe my chart topping books, some TLTP bingo cards for the Die Hard Podcast fans. I could finally centralize all that bootleg merch, pillows, cushions, t-shirts, cards in one place. And where would it be? On Shopify. If you want a better experience shopping online for you and your customers, Shopify is the answer. It's the commerce platform behind millions of your favorite thriving businesses, like Gymshark and even Mattel , the international toy making conglomerate. But it doesn't matter how big or small your business is, the big bonus of using Shopify is that they'll help you every step of the way. From designing your first website to finding customers, marketing new products, managing inventory, shipping internationally and beyond. Important for my many fans overseas. They're the ultimate business partner, and the best part of all, you can do all that in one place . See fewer shopping carts go abandoned on those websites. You know what I mean? I can't deal with this. I'm gonna stop doing it. And earn more with Shopify. Sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk slash Louis That's shopify.co .uk slash Louis Do you read your reviews? No. Don't you? No. I I might I might read some of the bad ones. Like I because they do send the reviews like they and I see the email and I go like very quickly down the links. And if I say something like really bad, I might click on it and see. Really? Yeah. Why? It just interests me to see, you know, well, first of all, if there's some something truthful in it, and then may I may I uh yeah, learn something . And then you know, like w is it coming from? Um I'm interested to see. And a lot of the times it's just like people just wanted a different film . But it's like y they didn't make it, so they're getting this one. Uh, but they wanted it to be different. It's not about you know how good it is or uh it's about it should have been another way. Um so I f I find that interesting to read. 'Cause you know, uh reviews that praise the work I don't have much to gain from . And it makes me feel uncomfortable. I get that. I mean it can confirm you in things like, oh, it's working. I'm not alone. Yeah, but you get you get a sense of that anyway. Like because uh films are especially you know the films I've been making the last few years, like they're widely released, you get a sense of whether it's working or not. And you know, talking to other people like and if you start promoting the film and then if you get into that whole awards kind of season thing, you know, you speak to other people, you get a sense of you know how the film is doing. You don't have to like read someone's specific view of what the film is and what it means to them. I also don't love the analysis of what it is that I do, because it kind of ruins it for me. I like just not know ing and working, as I said before, like instinctively, like instead of saying like what you've been doing I know I was gonna I I you know what I I try not to take offense . No that's heard. No, but like it it's it's hard f for me to actually try and understand it. That's why, you know, I usually just agree with Right. So all the time you said you've done it, you got it, you were basically just agreeing. No , no. I genuinely think that I I haven't figured out how you do what you do, but I do think what I have figured out is that you can't interrogate the mystery too much. And just as in the films, um you're more interested in the how than the why in certain respects, that sort of the the mechanisms and the ways, the rationalizations and the shifts in power, as opposed to what's behind all this, I think in a in a weird way, I think I take that from the filmmaking pro cess a bit like it's there isn't a kind of universal solution. There isn't necessarily a unitary meaning. You exist as a viewer within the tensions and if I can make this about me even more than it already is like I do try to when I make a documentary rather than say like what's the meaning or what's the takeaway I find it easier to talk about tensions.' Ths aere tension between um the urge to be tolerant uh and humane towards pred even predatory people like pedophiles while also taking uh sufficient account of the seriousness of their crimes, how do you balance those two moral imperatives? There isn't really an answer. No. And that's the beauty of it, like of what we do. Like you, you know, offer these things to people and then they make what they want with it. Like it's it's impossible to control. Like that's the weird thing about it. Like cause you have to make so many decisions making something, either a documentary or a uh narrative film. Um you make so many decisions thinking that you have some kind of control. They're gonna say these things, they're gonna be in this house, uh, there's gonna be this music, and you think that you have this control in creating this work that you hope will have some kind of impact. But like in reality, imagine how what we were saying before, like how different people are and how they're gonna perceive it in different ways. And you have to be able to just let that go and say, yeah, people are gonna, you know, think different things about it. And that's why I also said like before, like I agree because nothing is wrong. There's no version of what you think about well there might there might be some extreme ones, but like the but you can't say like you're wrong thinking, you know, this part is funny and this isn't. You're not wrong. Like you have a different sense of humor, you have a different experience in life, or a different understanding of situations or tensions, are you as you say, and it might be something personal that you recognize that makes you experience in a different way. So it's like you have to kind of let go. One of the things that your films also often are marked by distinguished by his amazing performances, most recently by Emma Stone and Jesse Plemens in the past, also Willem Defoe, Olivia Coleman, Colin Farrell, many others . And yet it's also been said by them that you don't say that much. And they they they say they'll come to you and say, like, Why am I doing this? Like, why have I decided to hack out my own liver? And you look dip that's a reference. Spoiler. Um and or cut off my own finger. Why uh and then you like you don't you say it's not about why. Yeah. That's why I keep working with Emma because she doesn't ask those questions. Really? She stopped doing that. No, they all they all get it, I think eventually. But like I understand the the urge uh of an actor to have a little bit more information, but I think it's more beneficial for everyone, if we don't analyze things too much. And you know, I I I try to work with people that I trust a lot. And that also is the same for people behind the camera, but also the actors that I know they'll bring something that is hopefully surprising and something that I didn't necessarily expect . But yeah, no, no, I've been lucky that I I I try to make sure that, you know, like I the actors that I work with have a sense of what it is, you know, my work and you know the appreciated in a certain way. And then I think also to get along as people, like just how communication is and how the interaction is, and then I think then it becomes easy to just you know trust them and they trust you. And also the benefit of course of working multiple times with them is that you know you build trust more and more. But I think it's well the reason to get back to that that I don't like to say too much to them or explain too much is because like I have an explanation, but they might have an explanation that's more interesting. Also , you know, it allows me to s to to have a distance when I see what when I observe what it is that they're doing and what they're bringing. And that allows me to see if maybe it's not working . Because if it's something that we both have agreed on, then you kind of tend to think that's the correct thing and you kind of tend to even see that that you agreed even if it doesn't exist. So I I prefer to not know what it is that they're thinking. Right. And then they bring it, and if I go like that doesn't look right, I can tell them. Or but if it is, it's great, because you know, you didn't necessarily expect that or it is what you expected and they're doing it, you know, they're uh making it even greater. Um so that's the reason. It's not like some kind of fuditive uh process of um it's just like I I think it's beneficial for them as well. And I think they get it like uh with them it was naturally like that from the beginning and that's why we get along so well. Did she say that you sometimes do line reads of bad line reads of T V? Now I love to do that even more. When she said that it annoys her . You know, or if it's something physical or I just try to emit her her and go like, don't do it like this. And she goes like okay, you don't have to do I I get it. It's a big no no, isn't it, doing line reads. Someone told me that once. Yeah. Why? Because like it's insulting or I guess it's insulting. The other thing is like it's reductive, like it's yeah, then you have to like mimic the other person like doing Sometimes I watch films, not yours, but you think I think you've got that line wrong. Like I think you're emphasizing the wrong words. Words. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's off putting you think like why didn't you say, No, just say you can't handle the truth. You know what I mean? I know what you mean. Imagine saying that to Jack Nicholson. Yeah. I think he got that one right now. It's good he gets it right most of the time. Yeah. That's the thing. Like I think intelligent talented actors do not get the line wrong. Right. It's just about finding the nuances and the the divers ity of what that can be and, you know, try and capture that and then be able to play around with that during the editing so that you can, you know, sculpt their performances and uh but yeah, I I just love I didn't start out like that. I got I just love finding people that I can trust and I feel like they bring much more than I could have imagined. Uh I think I started out thinking like I have to control everything and I am the one who knows best about everyt hing. And you know, by working with people, you know, multiple times and trusting them and I I realized that it's so much better to just um you know get ideas from everyone and then , you know, just have the confidence to uh sort them out and understand what's beneficial for the for the end result and what isn't. Um so yeah, I I I just love giving them the freedom as well. No it's not like withholding information just to tease them or anything. It's just like giving them I I see it as giving them more freedom to come up with their own ideas about the character or the scene or what that is. Do you have a sense of what what separates the really good actors from the not so good actors. You're it's a slightly mysti because I'm such a terror, I can't act. Please don't ask me to be in one of your films. I knew I was gonna write after as soon as we finished. Yeah. You can see it in my eyes. How do they you know? I'm always mystified and I even sit because we had Flor I will tell you if you get a line wrong. I will I would you? I will tell you because you're famous for that stress that word. What do they do ? No, you should have said you are famous for that. You are famous for that. You can't handle the truth. You've obviously got an eye for actors. Uh you know, you've you you you you you work with great actors, they bring great you get great performances out of them. What do actors do? I don't know how they do it. It's incredible. You know, a good sign for me is like when they're in a terrible film and they're still decent within a terrible film. I think that they have like a a quality that like shines through anything. So that's something to look out for, I think. Do you watch many terrible films . I mean inadvertently. Do you stay across what Hollywood is doing? I you know, I'd try as much as you know . Is there something you can learn? Do you I mean learn or like learn which I'm curious about the state of things. You know how Tarantino will see anything. Yeah, and say anything. What do you think about that? For people who don't know Well, I we're not criticizing him about speaking too much and then say something about him. That's as far as I didn't like that, but um uh he famously in the last couple of days has said of Paul Is it Dano's Dano, I think. Paul Dano who,'s in who's a terrific actor, who's in There Will Be Blood and what was he? Another one I shall call Prisoners. Prisoners, yeah. And for some reason he directed films as well. Quentin Tarantino decided to uh public ly criticize him. Yeah. Well, we don't have to . No, we don't have to pile on the way. Oh, there goes that clickbait. Thanks very much. How's the internet? We've got to feed the internet. Feed the internet. The internet is hungry. But they've they've def everybody's defended Paul Dano and you know that's it's he doesn't need defending because you know that's just But my point was before you got us down a clickbait side passage was uh Quentin Tarantino f you brought it up, not me. Well I mean you brought up Quentin Tarant ino, so So he famously w he's like I I'm he's I'll go and see he said something you know he but he's a fan of just movies and he'll go and see and whatever comes out. You know what I mean? Yeah. Are you like that? Uh no . Would you go see a like a Marvel film? I think I think you don't have kids, is that right? No, I don't. No. So you w there's no reason for the job. Did you watch the s uh the Minecraft movie ? No. I don't know what that is. You don't know what it is? No. That was the number two box office film of the year, I believe. I'm not their audience, I guess. Wow. Number one was a Chinese film that I didn't recognize. You might have known what it was. Um I'm not gonna go down all the list of the hip films. No, but yeah, I mean I do watch films. Like I Marvel? Do you watch any of them? I mean, if uh one of them kind of uh intrigues me for some. Some of the recent superhero films. That has intrigued me. Um I don't know. Tell me some. Well, there was a Superman reboot. Didn't see that. Lego Batman. I saw the previous Superman. Lego Batman? Lego Batman, no. It's funny. The previous Superman was which one? There's been so many. Yeah, they keep rebooting it. He was like sav ing I think it was New York City, and like he was throwing people like on buildings, and the buildings would be destroyed. So I was thinking like he's killing way more people than the bad guy would by just destroying all its buildings and collapsing. So it's like they always say about the Death Star, right? Yeah. There was a lot of probably cleaners on the Death Star. Do you know what I mean? Just non-partisan, non-ideological support stuff, and then they blow up the Death Star and we're all like, yeah. Tens of thousands of people . Yeah. So I don't I like I don't know. I I'll go watch something that yeah. Spider Man ? It's been a while. Would you have watched like the ri the original reboot which was the Brian De not Brian De Palmer. Who is it? Um Sam Raimi. Sam Raimi . I think I watched that, yeah, with uh Toby Maguire. And Willem Defoe, your friend. And Willem Defoe, my friend . Willem is in everything. Tell him that. I'm sure he'd appreciate the competition. No, I tell him this. But he he loves working. Like he's like that's someone you you love having on set. Like he loves working. Apparently like I interviewed him as well. Yeah. And uh he was like,ah Ye I, love making the movies. And then he didn't literally say this but it was along the lines of uh yeah, but when they come out I'm not that interested. Yeah. I listened to that, yeah. Did you? Yeah. So he's yeah, he's not I think you insulted him at one point. Did I maybe I did? What was it that I said? I don't remember, but it was funny. I was aware it was funny to hear that. I was aware that I felt like I also loved uh Abraham of its pounding you. Like Did you like that? That sounds sex ual. Well um for people who don't know Marina Abramovich was a recent guest of the podcast, the most famous, arguably the most famous performance artist now living. She didn't pound me exactly. She was playfully I I I I enjoyed her. I enjoyed it like She's feisty. She's feisty, yeah. Um are there mainstream Hollywood directors that you watch out for and you find interesting? Or mainstream doesn't you can remove the directory. You say mainstream and Hollywood. It's like really complex the issue. Like is Paul Thomas Anderson a mainstream ? I forget mainstream. Yeah, of course. Paul Thomas Anderson is great. Yeah. But I love talking more about like you know, Kelly Eyhart and people like that that I find, you know, well not enough She's got a new film out. She's got the mastermind, yeah. Like brilliant. See? Even you. Even. I love the even . Has she made many films? She's made quite a few, yeah. Did you like what was it called? Not uh um what was the one about the sex worker ? Anora. Anora. Yeah. Was that up your alley? Uh yeah, it was yeah, fun . Yeah . I'm not gonna become Quentin Tarant ino. Um Um I didn't w that wasn't it was We lost everyone with Kelly Reihart, right? I don't know what to do with Kelly Reihart. Yes. I'll I'll give you something else. I d I gave you Paul Thomas Anderson, but he doesn't need it because he's like so popular right now. Like I watch sp Spielberg movies and I watch Scorsese and you know, of course. You know, I I feel like um I'm on on the edge of uh Losing Everyone? No no. Not at all, actually. Ariasta we already mentioned the Safti brothers you've talked about. The Safties they're they're my friends. We we grew up together. No we didn't grow up together, but we met during Dog Tooth actually. We they had their film Daddy Long Legs and we met at festivals. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. And yeah, we became friends. No. Oh, you're talking about the latest one, Long Legs. Jesus Christ, you're so illiterate . What why am I even here ? Um there's another no daddy long legs. It was 2009. The softies are maybe though you know Uncut Gems. Of course I seen Uncut Time. And now they they have both made uh individual films that they directed. Marty Supreme is one that Josh Softy Is that good? Yeah. Oh well I haven't seen it. But people say it's good. And Ben Safti did uh oh oh Ben I'm sorry, I'll remember in a second. Uh the smashing machine uh with the rock. Uh so they've both made films, yeah. They're great. Uh let's arrive somewhere. I mean, I feel I don't want to peel the layers away, so you should, and I have a bad habit of doing that. But I know okay, I'll say this. So so you grew up, you were s you're an only child, your dad wasn't in the picture for a lot of it. Yeah. Your mum died when you were 17. Yeah . And you never really reconciled as far as I were with your dad? Or insofar as that term is appropriate. It's not as though you became massively close with your dad after that? No. No, I would like s see him every now and then, but like, yeah, we're never very close, no. Do you think you have a suspicion of family life ? I guess so. I mean I do have a very particular view and experience about it. Um maybe that's part of how, you know, we started something like Dogtooth for example. Um maybe, yeah. The reason I don't want to have kids, maybe You don't want to. Really? Yeah. But also, you know, the state of the world doesn't really encourage Do you feel gloomy about the state of the world It's yeah it's something that I'm like trying to um I'm wrestling with because yeah everything points to that but then how useful is to just say that and you know whatever is left of it, what do you do with it? What do you what's top of your list in terms of threats that you see? 'Cause there's quite a few to choose from there's quite a few, yeah, that's the thing. But that's the thing. Like it's overwhelming. Yeah, like it's you know, yeah, the environment , refugees, like that's up my alley, like in Greece, that's how most of them are trying to escape uh the horrors of Is that still going on? Of course, yeah. There was a crisis on Lesbos, was it back in the day? It w there still is. It's the same. It hasn' But that's still it's still happening. Refuge they they don't call it them camps anymore. They call them uh hospitality centers or something. Really bad. But they are like camps. And it's they're not just on Lesbos. They're on many islands and on mainlands. And yeah, it's pretty . Yeah , rough situation. And then let's not even talk about you know what's going on Gaza and West Bank and which you did a documentary that I'd like it to be longer. Oh thank, you . So yeah, there's there's well, America . Um, what's going on there? Like the rise of, you know, right wing right wing populism. Populism everywhere. Like there's so much. Like we're I'm probably not the best who talk about these things, but you know, I do notice them. Would you ever think, well, I'd shine a light on this through with a film? I think perhaps you're not issue driven th in that way, in a straightforward way. I'm I guess I'm not, but I'm I'm I it's hard to ignore it um more and more. Yes, I am political, but it's not I explore as you said, like whatever, human power dynamics or whatever. And it's never directly political. I think Bogonia is more directly political than like there's political references specific political references. Um, and yeah, I'm like in a in a place where I I'm wondering whether I need to do something which is yeah, more directly political in in terms of like um addressing some things more head on. Uh and I don't know what that is. Maybe I'll make a documentary Welcome back. Hope you enjoyed that. I was definitely reaching my limit of journalistic or podcast hosting competence. Like there were times when I thought, well, when the guest calls you illiterate, albeit slightly tongue in cheek, um , you realise maybe you haven't brought your A game, or maybe your A game is their C game or D game . Yorgh said I don't have much to gain from reviews that praise the work. Do you agree? Well since we recorded I've had a film come out Um Louis Threw Inside the Manosphere, a Netflix documentary . I found that I preferred reading the positive reviews. I don't know that I learned much from them I didn't read all the negative reviews. You're surprised that there were any There were a few. One had a headline they called the film an infuriating failure . Millie found that very funny. That's the m most I've seen her laugh. I mean you could spin that as a positive . Uh yeah, maybe you should be infuri ated . Maybe the failure is you. Maybe the world is a mirror and it's bouncing back. Think about that, reviewer. I try not to memorize their names Which suggests I do memorize their names. If you find yourself in Athens, in Greece, not Georgia, between now and May, Yorgos has a photography exhibition open now. It was reviewed in the New York Times very favourably. We'll put a link in the show notes for that. Have you checked out the show notes people at home in Radio Land? Um I'm amazed I don't do them. I'm not sure who is doing them but they I mean if I I just have to say like oh um I like the smell of my own farts and they'll have a little link to like w you know farts. You know, it's extraordinary. That's not a good example. Like they're gonna put up the Wikipedia page for Athens probably. No, it's amazing though. Are you doing that? Ellie does them. Ellie does them. Wow . Maybe too many. No . It's just right . For me the big takeaway was that he'd seen my documentaries and genuinely seemed to have got something out of them. For Millie the takeaway is that someone reviewed my film and the headline was Louis Threw's Manosphere Film Is an Infuriating Failure. Oh wow. That's it for me for a while. We'll be back with more episodes quicker than you can say, the Louis Thoreau Pod