Building a Podcasting Empire

Hello and welcome back to a brand new series of the Louis Thureu podcast And for our first episode, I'm joined. by none other than English footballing icon, Pundit, extxtraordinaire, podcasting emperor and face of Walkers crrisps Gary Liner Gary is one of the country's best known sports personalities playing as striker for Leicester, Everton, Tottenham, Barcelona and of course England through the eighties and nineties and winning the Golden boot at the nineteen eighty six World Cup as the tournament's top scorer After retiring from professional football in nineteen ninety four, he took the reins of the BBC's iconic football highlights show Match of the Day, becoming one of the most recognizable faces on British TV In later years, Gary's become vocal about his political and humanitarian views on Twitter. In twenty twenty three, he temporarily stepped back from presenting for the BBC over his criticism of the British government's immigration policy. There was further controversy over a post about Zionism that Gary shared on Instagram the following year, leading to Gary leaving Match of the Day after twenty six years at the helm b all of this in the chat. Garyry's also launched a podcasting empire, O under his previous moniker, sometimes it's a term of abuse Goal hanger You know, goal hanger. There are neighbors here at Spotify. They're sometimes in the studio next door. They make the rest is politics, the rest is history, the rest is football, the rest is entertainment, the rest is whatever And they generally sit above us in the podcasting charts, not that I'm bitter Maybe if I call it the rest is Louis Threw We get more downloads Fuck those guys a joke I was interested in sitting down with Gary dh because he's a footballing icon and also a broadcasting role model. Certainly like I admire his laid back presenting style He's always had the ability to seem completely relaxed in front of a camera in a way that he also seemed very relaxed On the pitch, one of the things he mentions in the chat is how he never suffers from nerves At least not why he's playing Sometimes when he's watching TV, he gets some butterflies He's been in the frame for a while. We've traded messages. He's always been extremely open to the idea of coming on, the timing wasn't quite right, but now it is with the World Cup coming up It seemed like the perfect time to hook it up. We recorded this conversation in mid April this year at Spotify HQ The names of the squad hadn't been announced by I'm talking about the England squad or any of the squads. And apologies by the way to listeners outside of England 'cause I think I betortray a very slight What is it territorialism? I mean, I'm talking quite a lot about the England team and other teams are also available A quick warning, this conversation contains some strong language I've already used some, and adult themes Millie's also suggested that I say it'll become clear that I don't know much about football or that I'm not the biggest football fan or something. I'm not reading that bit because I think it becomes clear that I might know something about football, but I've chosen not to show off D take out the bit where I said Tactics are bullshit. Anyway, all of that, as well as much else besides coming up This episode is brought to you by Shopify When you're starting a new venture, support is everything Which is why you should lean on Shopify to design an eye catching website reaches customers y is the ultimate business partner built in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store is your brand Hundreds of templates for you to use. i even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing See why businesses like Gymshark continue to trust Shopify. sign up for your one dollar per month trial today at shopify d. com slash. Louis L O U I S That's shhopify d. com slash Louis Let's talk about the World Cup Um, how are you feeling about it Not sure. In terms of the football, I'm looking forward to it. Yes is in USA and Mexico and Canada, the host nations. the worlds are a little bit bonkers at the moment, particularly over the pond. So I've covered so many World Cups and I've been to them as well. and all the talk before the World Cups is always about the issues and possible issues Russia didn't win just It was in Russia. It was in Russia in twenty eighteen and it was just a few years after Putin Obviously invadi Crimea and then we got even before that you got twenty fourteen in Brazil where there were mass demonstrations right around the country saying We shouldn't be spending all this money on stadiums, we should be doing on the, you know the people and the health service and all that sort of thing then you got ' twenty two with Qatar and LGBTQ rights and So there's always something building up to the world Is's it illegal to be gay Qatar I mean it was then and I don't know whether that's changed now. and so and building of the stadiums, people losing their lives was definitely that. So there were, you know and a bit of, you know talk of corruption about when they got the bid. So this worldld cp would go into it and you know America has been attacking one or two countries so which will make it interesting. But I find from my experience of these World Cups that once it starts We concentrating on the football and's all' well with the world again. It's very uniting Yeah U Do you have a favorite of recent times? Wh which ones stand out? Leaving aside for the moment the ones you played in eighty six and ' ninet I know it's the most recent but For me, it was amazing and it was different as a broadcaster we could actually G to every game that we covered because it's so small. such a small country. So that was unique. The stadiums were amazing. It was very hot. It no no because it was it was later in the year It was November December, wasn't it? So it was actually You know, the hottest would be like late twenties, maybe, which is not too bad. Well, Europe's hotter generally in the summer than perhaps that. So that all turned out really well. We sort of post COVID ish. So we were coming off the feeling of, oh this is we're kind of getting back to normal some Yeah twenty twenty two, wasn't it? Yeah. We went out in the quarters. Qarters to France On penalties. No, we lost no one But we me that Harry Kan scored he scored one and missed one. Most of you remember the scored one. He ballooned it People of ourinter, he waddled it over the bar. Yeah, not quite as high as. I don't think Chrises has landed yet It went into orbit and is circling our planet U but Yeah. I mean, anyone can miss a penalty. It's, you know, you've got to be say this as someone who took penaltty himself. it you know, you need to pair of balls to talk And I don't think he's missed one since Haza I actually missed one a couple of weeks ago for Bayer Munich, but he's a magnificent football, we? I mean, I just hope let me be the devil's advocate, right. I don't play football to a high level. this will surprise you. No. Nevertheless, when you're watching you think you got one job, you got one job and you're paid hundreds of thousands to kick it in the back of the net and on paper it looks like hundreds of thousands in the Wld Cup paid anything. No, but for your expertise. Yeah, I know. we'reaid lesser, we'll try a bit less hard Yeah There used to be a narrative, especially when England were underperforming that they're not trying as hard. Do you remember that? Trying too hard is probably the issue. It wasn't they really save it for their league games and once it's the World Cup They get so much validation. throughrough their day in day out playay, why would they care about the world state? Well, you could say that about all the French players and Spanish players and German players that have won and Italy, Italian play, I know they're qualify for Austral World Cups, but that's just a possible excuse and it's a nonsense players T so much That is probably the issue is that it's this ight Not lack of belief, but almost trying too hard, which is much more likely to be you talked about Harry missing his penalty and he's paid a fortune to not do j way that sounds awful when you say it golfers miss great you know, golfers miss chances. golfers miss putts and they're paid fortunes. Yes. No, it's the same in sport spports difficult. It's quite difficult at that level Yeah And people are trying to stop you and things like that. So you've got to be very accurate U There's a little bit of pressure. that's It's a little bit pressure. Yeah. Do your legs feel foreign to you? Like is that think of like, I'm suddenly heavy, I'm a stranger to myself. There's almost like a well, we're all different. a hormone or dump of some kind. I remember too I was England penalty taker for in Mexico eighty six, but we didn't get a penalty in Mexico eighty six. and I was still the penalty taker in Italia ninety. and in those four years We've never got a penalty for England So I was the penalty taker in Italy United in my first ever penalty that I took for England was in the quarterfs against Cameroon and were too on down with eight minutes to go So I think and it's funny, you know, I didn't really feel Nervous practiceed and practiced and practice and practiced the penalty that I wanted to hit in the game. And because I practice so frequently I was pretty confident and I hit it in exactly the spot that I wanted to and it was a goal. And then Something mad happened We got another one in extra time. And this time I'm thinking uck I haven't thought about doing. I'd never contemplated. I hadt had one for four years. and then all of a sudden I'm thinking well the keeper moved really early on that one, so it probably do the same again. and I didn't know which way to go. so I thought I'd just smack it down the middle and it works. because if you go one way or the other and the keeper goes the right way, you've got to be incredibly accurate I've read you say that you don't get nerves. Can that really be true in general? like you just that sensation of butterfly? when I get nervves, I get nerose watching sport. but never participating in it or even broadcasting. But watching We're recording this just after Rory Mclroe won the Masters Watching Rory because I'm a massive Rory fan is nerve wracking. Wing Lester when they were going towards the league title in that miraculous season twenty six I got nervous not not for myself because I don't know As you quite rightly say, you get paid a lot of money because you're quite good at what you do. And I think also to be a striker, I don't I don't know how you can be a strike if you're a bit nervous Soee you I was almost cold when I was Young,' very ambitious, very driven very cold and emotionally cold Eotion life Yes. I. How' you say this before it really jumped out? Yeah, dramatically changed and I't know I don't know whether wasving kids I don't know whether it was George' illness, when he was a baby it's just a culmination of things And I don't think I was particularly empathetic when I was a footballer. I think I was just focused so much on game itself and my career and how to score goals and how to score more goals and more goals. and I ye looking back now really think I'd probably li myself that much Come on. I dunn know I don't know what my teammates. I remember Mark With Mark c, I' play with at Barcelona Carting what something happened you went. very old are't you? You don't So yeah. Yeah. And I went, Oh, really? Yeah, maybe. Do you think you would like that in your romantic relationships? No, no. No, I don't think so Maybe, a little bit driven, but maybe I don't know. That's a good question, I think. I mean, what it suggests is a kind of a aloofness or a freedom from neediness that could probably be quite attractive, I think I can see that that gives you a sort of power. like you're permanently self self possessed. Yeah, maybe. I don't I mean, you'd have to ask my ex wife' have to get. first wife, obviously, a second wife I think' Sheell was it? Sheell. Yeah, Michell. Sheell on next week. Yeah, she'll come on, She. be fine I wouldn't be worried if Michelle came on. She'd say nice things. The you mentioned George's illness. Just for people feeling like, believe it or not, we have audiences listening who may not know that you went through this extraordary long time ago. Yeah, this extraordinary. I mean, the most horrific thing Youould imagine. Yeah, he was. It was about sixty weeks old First s First child All sons are actually good boys fourour boys, yeah U And George was the first and after six weeks, he this little Not spot but like a little lump on the top of his forehead. And we saw O spelled So we thought, we'll go in and get him checked and they looked at it and they said, it looks like it might be this skin condition and they said, we'll take a little sample of it. so they took it and then they said come back in, I think they said about ten days and we should have the results. So in this interim period a lot more of these bumps and his head was like most all on his head And his head was almost like a golf ball. and it was very odd. So we go back and didn't forget there's two doctors there. I was edgy. we were nervous, but they said the report's come back and it's what we thought it was. It's a dermatological issue. And I went, o, thank goodness for that. And I said, well You say that, I said, but the last week he's really not been very well and he's grroaning a lot and his glandans are up a little. And they went, o,'s and they took his little outfit off and took his nappy off I just had a little feel around and they looked at each other And they went Mr. and Mrs. Liningham, I'm sorry, but this is something I think much more serious And we've gone, what do you mean? And they said, well, we'll have to do some tests, but it really does look like leukemia So I knew leeukemia was a blood cancer, but beyond that I, you know, didn't know too much. And it was like wham. And within two hours we werere in a back of an ambulance being rushed to Great Ormond Street and he's getting stuff pumped into him and was and he was in hospital for about seven weeks at least two occasions, they told us he didn't think he'd make it through the night Somehow he did. And it was it was really, really brutal. It was so tough. I mean, Michelle spent seven months in the hospital, didn't leave it. except we popped out for dinner some nights. I used to I was there all in the daytime. there wasn't enough space to sleep tours anyway. I didn't play for about three or four weeks. But actually when I went back to training, it was so helpful football for me because it was in the off season, we' it was in the middle of the le was was born was ye, it was before Christmas. So it was yeah, Novemberish, I think, and late November. And then I didn't playay for a few weeks and then I went back in train and actually, do you know football at that point was it was the only time that I didn't think about it and it could switch off a little bit And I got back playing again a few weeks later, but and then you know st back to the hospital all day. and it was incredibly tough Whilst there was always a little bit of hope, you sort of clung to that. but there were lots of you know on the same ward parents that weren't as lucky as where you were You know, George is now thirty four, incredibly healthy and well, amazing. You know, I remember when they because they're very honest doctors. I mean, they have to. I remember that first conversation when after they'd got the proper diagnosis and they said, well what does this mean? And they said, well It depends which one he's got if it's this and that, but it was a cute Myloid leukemia. and they said, well, The chances of survival are probably between ten and twenty percent And so they were very honest and it was like, oh my God I used to have these dreams. I used to have these awful dreams of me carrying a little white coffin all the time, almost every night.. But there's no lasting side effects for him. He's I mean, there are a few things that possibible as side effects over the years, but he's great. he's amazing. He's in good health. He's a fitness machine. he works. He's a fanatic works out every day he's doing really well. Yeah And he's got a lovely sense of humor about the whole thing, face. None of your sons are footballers. Everyone play sport. That's part of the interviewing one hundred one when you're talking to Gary Linaker, they always say like,one of your son's a footballer Well they would disagree with you. They Well the two middle ones would definitely disagree with The three youngest play George is not that we're inclined. By his own admission, he's not the most talented footballer. and I once stood on the sidelines when he was you know he's about eleven, twelve and he's playing in a game And mother, one of the mothers of the opping team player came up and went,'s like, that's your son there, isn't it? I went, Yeahah, yeah, she went, I thought it'd be better than that I said you should see his mother play. That's a good line. But you've been made a thing of being relaxed about Well, not wanting to pressure kids in general and your own sons in particular into spport doesn't help The end doesn't help. I mean, the jury's out on that. If you've seen the documentaries like the one about Tiger Woods whose dad was training him in golf, But I guarantee Tiger Woods would have been equally as good.est that can we? We can't.illam sisters would be another one. Agassy. he's a paradox because he played obviously to an incredibly high level, but professed to hate the sport because of the work ethic and the intensity of his That there's some interesting stuff being done in Norway at the moment with youngsters. It's incredible. I don't know what you even notice but they're producing of talented sports people. you Winter Olympics Winter Olympics right right up Norway they've got people like Harlem's cold. The weather's got to be a factor.. For the winter Olympics it would help. But you know, for golf, for example, you know, big to oilp, But what they've done there, they've basically let kids play sport if they want to and do what they want. There's no league tables There's no winning and losing. You're just play for fun and they've found that So many more young people are sticking with sport because they're having fun and enjoying it whereas before And in most other countries There's there's maybe parents are pushing them or the coaches are pushing them and and so many kids get put off sport and hate it Anyway, I think picked out a few sports people that have made it to the very top and it's very public that we know what their parents say and they did have pushy parents. My view is they probably made it Bind to them rather than because of them And I can't prove that very h. but I know so many people sports people that have been incredibly successful that have had support from their parents parents haven't necessarily pushed them who were also, you know, someone like Messy for example, or you know, you could find so many examples of sports people that haven't had parents that have like pushed them all the way. They probably supported them. And I think there's a fundamental difference. But because we know about the William Sisters and we know about Tiger Woods Everyone uses those as an example. I wonder if it's the same for Rory McArooy, Scottish Chef. C clearly Rory's parents are incredibly supportive But Push she? don't think so. Makes me feel a lot better about my parenting style. Good Yeah, stay on the iPad Do it more These are just don donon't bother me. Just don't bother me. L me alone. Going back to the World Cup for a second, the narrative is P'd probably say the men's football World Cup. Yeah ye, I kept adding Maybe this Earth, mayaybe I should add of Earth. Pet Earth O on planet E U The narrative is like England obviously we won the English team won in sixty six. I've never heard anyone mention it. And it's like, ever since we got the sense of entitlement orr a feeling that well, we should have won it again by now Well we should have w it. Do you think is that misplaced or not? you? No, we're one of the great football nations. We've got, you know, the arrguably the strongest league in world football We've produced ome incredible talent, amazing players, but it's not quite happened. Is that part of the problem? We have the Premier League, but how E English is it? Well the Pming Lague' part of the problem, the success toooo many bloody foreigners No, that's not the issue He said that ironically. I know you did. I just wanted to make clear th that that the issue is too many games. And our game is, you know, high octane, so it's they generally look pretty knackered by the summer. Is it? Yeah. And I think I can see it happening in a game. but I can see it happening Seriously Yeah, it's tough. but all it does is lessen our chances slightly. It doesn't it doesn't mean say we can't win it. You retired from football at thirty. thirty one No I was thirty Tw when I finished in England and I moved to Japan for two years. So my last game was actually on my thirte. And you' said yourself you were off your pace a bit by then? Oh yeah Harry Caine is thirty two. Yeah But they it's different now. The longevity of football is much greater now U you know, obviously through diet and the way players look after themselves, you know, they drking culture that was around when we were playing and The styles different anyway. Do you think Watching the World Cup in the e Eururos with family members There was was this being of frustration like Garth Southgate obvious was a manager and it felt like he was conservative. It was like unleash the beast. Look what you've got on the bench. Do you know what I'm talking about? was Jack Greenish. that he actually unleashed hell. And there was this very conservative donon't be careful, defend Don't rush. Don't be too creative. Well, I think that's a fair criticism of Gareth, but at the same time, I think it's very important to look where England were when he took over the job. We were in a mess. real mess, not doing very well. We took over from Roy Hodg. That's right. We'd had a nightmare. We'd lost to Iceland in the European Championship. We didn't get through. The group was stag in the previous world. We lost to Iceland, a team of a team of fishmunkers. That's right Uber drivers. I know. a lot of geeezers They were literally illegal. A couple of them were literally amateur play. Well yeah, it was an embarrassment. So he took over at a point where we're probably an all time low or one of the all time lows Iat Everyone was against the England players and they were getting a terrible time and he transformed that. I understand the criticism and I' said it myself on occasions that He is cautious, but he was a defender himself And his argument would be that most teams that win tournaments that way and you could say that's true. although Spain show that that very much wasn't the case in that year. So yeah, and he was a little bit tentative with making substitutions, but you've got to remember when England are playing in a tournament And we're as as guilty as anyone. We've all got our view on who we think should be playing and why is he not on the pitchure? like you're always going He didn. Well Jack I don't think he didn't like Jack. I mean that I mean, you'd have to get Gar South Gate on to ask you about that. Do you not think he likes Garus? I don't know That was what they said. That was what someone in the room. People say he didn't like, you know, why did he play so and so Why did Jack Bing Jack Jack come on and just run in circles in the box H you've never been in football bunda tree I'd love to say you, Look, he's just running in circles I didn't bring him on Uh so Oh yeah, you made a good case for Gareth Southgate. We'll see and it'll be interesting under the new man. Thas Toull. Thomas Toull. Yeah He's different I like his vibe. He's got good vibe. like his Germanic in Tense. He's German, isn't he? Yeah. I mean, when he originally joined Chelsea, I was talking to Chairman journalist I said, He seems a bit like crazy and he went, well, he He said he's sixty percent genius, forty percent psychopath. Really? Yes. But that may be what we need I even if we' him really well that. he denies that he's a psychopath. Well, I would imagine he does Maybe he thinks he's just thirty five percent the. I don't know. that I think well, you need it to take that job. ob. Well it's notough is it? I have a job. It's like part time as well. I heard an interview. you were on Desert Island Discs, Su Lorley. I Godard. Why do you say Oh Godard? Because I was so young and I'd know nothing about music and it was The selection was interesteresting Very safe. Yeah. It was like Eric Clapton, you look a wonderful t. I did do I it's going to be Christop V lady. did the BBC cricket theme tube. You did I booked it in the end But you only knew was booket T in the MMGs becausecause you looked it up. Correct I'll gonna say I Googled it but I don't think Google' around there. It was nineteen ninety, I think, you were still playing. But you said at that time, they said, wouldould you want to be a manager? And you said No. And then you said, Well, maybe if it was England. Do you remember saying that? No. You said, I I managing England I still wouldn't want to know, I wouldn't I've changed my mind mind. I've changed my mind I wouldn't be I call it the hardest job in the world. That's a kind of exper. Yeah, it' impossible The impossible job, they called it, didn't they? And well, it's not You just got to win. whichich so far it hass been impossible. But being close on occasions. It will happen, hopefully before I die. I'd love to see us win like one of these major tournaments It might even be this one. you never know. Money Money of football is a topic that comes up a lot. Do you know who The highest paid footballer in the Premier League is o, u probably Holland. Yeah into my notes. Yeah. M For people at home who don't know Man City Danger manan Yeah He's Norwegian He's Norwegian. Yeah, He's Noregian. He's a big figure of a man. Oh's iment you being a defender? tryrying to defend against that. Very def a man mounted a Ving. Earning a reported, take it for what it's worth. five hundred twenty five thousand pounds A year, you ask? No, a week. It's a living twentyty seven point three millionars annually.. That's about what you were on by the end, is it They had to vault. Yeah I was twenty seven million pounds annually. Let that sink in. Plus there's tons of sponsorships and stuff double that. He's probably making fifty million a year. I think when I was I was probably one of the top paid players in the world when I was at Barcelona and Tottenham and I would have been on about Four days of his salary. So I was on about three hundred. twenty five grand a year, which was big at the norm time ye. V amazing. But yeah. What about when you started at Leicester started at lesster as an apprentice at sixteen and we and I was paid sixixteen pounds a week And they gave me a separate envelope with a fiver in that was for my mom because all the kids that got digs that were from other places, not because I was a local lad So they thought it's only only fair that your mum gets paid a little bit and my mum would never take it So I was actually on twenty one quid a week. Yeah. When you're an apprentice, are you playing? Are you part of the team? Not the first team. I was in the youth team. Yeah, mean if you're as good as mean you come matter you are, but I wasn't. I was a slow developer. I didn't reach puberty tntill I was seventeen, which was bit embarrassing in the show. Are you still waing? That's a weird joke How much would you have made once you started in the first team? H hundred critawes on Yeah, H hundred could. That seem all right. I didn't really think it I don't think eighteen? eighteen. I got a professional contract, eighteenth birthday And then it went up to I was top scoreing the Vision onene as it was then called. And I was only I think, four hundredquit a week, twenty four years old and that's when I moved to Everton for a year So it's gone up, but it felt like a lot at time Wing you As a younger man, what struck me was you didn't seem me doing very much It was out He just He just sticks his leg out And it goes into the goal. like that's doing a lot. That's great, isn't it I mean it's a goal like could be better than that. but I couldn't understand how you were able to score so much and make it seem relatively effortless And then obviously, this has come up a lot. and it's a compliment. Your podcast companyies called Gold Hanger. Yes played with the idea that, oh, I was sort of the right place, right time. But in a way, that was your style, right I think the thing is is that you are in the right place at the right time, but you're actually in the right place all the time, but often the ball is not So the secret of scoring goals is It's the law of probability So Most strikers and most people I watch. to see where the ball is going to be crossed and then Tack the ball Others, say from midfield, they'll wait to see where the pass is and then they'll chase the pass. the way you score goals It's to gamble on the space where you think the cross might go, where you can score from So if you keep doing that run now nineteen times out of twenty, the ball won't go there It'll go behind you. it'll go behind the goal. the keeper will catch it. It won' it won't go to that spot. where you think it might go. So if you keep going at that spot, that spot, then another and just gambling on where you think it might go on the twentieth time You'll be there ball goes in that spot and you've got an easy chance. Everyone looks at it. Its right place, right time. They don't see the other nineteen times where you were in the right place but the ball wasn't That is the secret to scoring goals and I understood that. So by the time it gets to Perfect ball comes. you go it's a tapp in, it's amazing. It's always like easy goals. like you just said, you stick your leg out. but I always wondered why everybody didn't get it. Ite seems quite simple when you put it like that I think it's simple. People say, can you teach that? or does it have to be instinct? I don't think it's instinct chat with Thomas Mlly, another famous German Brilliant goal scorer. And he said exactly the same thing. I saw him do an interview and he was saying exactly about the laws of probability and the maths of it. and I thought, yeah, someone gets it You've talked a lot about eighty six being pivotal. You'd come up, you were a relatively late developer, having been signed to Leicester, you were late bloomer physically, like reached puberty late and that physicality came late as a result. your early twenties when you're hitting your stride. Then you get called up eighty six Mexico. It was a legendary World Cup for various reasons. Very, very hot, wasn't it? And You were coming off the back of a string of I want to say failures to score, right? I think you said there were like several games on that. I've gone for the nationalag. Yeah, I've gone for five games that goal for England before the World Cup and then didn't score in the first two. so I think I was about six ges with that. I thought Bobby would leave me out We knew Robson in England manager. Yeahep. G lovely guy no longer with us sadlely, but he's stuck with me. He stuck with you And'd been you'd been banging them away for Everton. the city and then Everton. Yeah So you came With all that history, they must have known, well, he's got something It makes me think about I've been scoring for England prior to that in the qualifiers I sc trk and you know, I was banging the goals for England And then it was just a little dry spell at the end of the season the pre worldke cook friend feels weird when you're in a dry spell It is weird because she don't really do anything different And it's very important that you don't do anything different U sometometimes its service dries up a striker, No service. what can you do? Well, exactly. Blame everyone else. That's what you do. You blame them. S, comeome on, get the ball in the bowl. And then you go in the first one is Morocco or Portugal In that World Cup was Portugal. we lost lost to Portugean And then Morocco, would you think we you would think we would Yeah, but then we got it then Brian Robson Disticcated his shoulder and Ray Wilkins got sent off. It was Brian Robinson, the captain Yes. So then you go into the third game It's against Poland My favorite bit was prior to the game when Bobby Robson, who was Let's say his team talks went on a bit. Very long So he normally did about forty five minutes and he everyone we used to call him Mogodon we all nodded off. I mean, he was lovely. You'd run through a brick wall for him, but he dig on a bit in his team meetings. and he always had this flip chart next to him And prior to this game we'd had a bad start. We were getting pillaried at home and he was getting dogs abuse from everywhere. Not that we're aware of it that much because we're in Mexico and there was no social media. thankfully. So he gets us in this room before, as he would do on a match day. and he goes Right boys He said, You know what you've got to do today against Poland. I could reel off all the possible permutations of results, he said, but You don't need to see that. You know what you got to do. I trust you. You go out there. You play how you know you can play. And he did this right rousing thirty second, sixty second speech. And at the end of he went just get out there and w. And we all went, wow, goosebumps and we all stood up and he went If anyone wants to see the permutations, he turned over the flip chart board and he had it and he spent forty five minutes talking through them all. Absolutely true. But anyway, come the game. We're playing forty degrees, forty two degrees centigrade it was. It's mental. thingsings changed. I made that, you know, that guessing on where the ball might go thing I told you about before. Gary Stevens crossed it. I was there three yards out, Bosch One Nil and then suddenly I'd to score a Hatrick in just a few minutes and life changed L changed in all sorts of different ways Offers were coming in. You'd already been in the sights of Barcelona, right? and then Well they they I think they'd made contact with Everton and Everton had told us about it and suggested that they'd agreed a fee. This is before the World Cup. and then the World Cup was started and I had chat with my agent John. And he said, right, how do we handle this? I said, Well, join the World Cup. I said, I'm with England. I said, I don't want I don't want to know anything I said let's park it after the World Cup. this has got to be my focus Anyway, they went pretty quiet apparently andjoyined the first couple of games because I didn't score And then I scored a hatrick and then I got two more against Paragon. And then it happened. So you know, suddenly score aat trick, things changed, topop score in the World Cup and then I'm in Barcelona We should talk about one of the most famous games in English football The match against Argentina. Yeah Madononna scored Two goals. Yeah I think I think prior probably to the last World Cup final, I think it's And it still might be, I think it's the most famous game in history in football history because of all the circumstances post It was four years after the Argentine what we call the Argentine War. al Falklands what recall it. They call it Las Malinas.alinas I mean, historically Argentina and the UK or in this case England There's a lot of commonality There's a lot of mutual respect and love Nevertheless, there was a war and And so this was like a grudge match, wasn't it? I mean they always denied it as footballers. I saw them do press conferences, genuinely amongst ours. all I can talk about his our team. we never really know. And Bobby Robson was saying you'll probably get to asked questions in press conferences just just b them. Re? all we're concentrating on is the World Cup and that's exactly. But we were aware of it Of course we were. It was so recent. Was it the quarter fininals or was it round of sixteen?Q So that's always going to be a big match. And then when you add the history, it's a great footballing nation. that's a classic match upp, right? And then what happened in the match itself? You then had probably the most controversial goal ever scored when he Maradononna punches it in and then probably the best goal that's ever been scored So to have those two things just a few minutes apart in the same match, and then we came back a bit and John Barnes came on knocked it across and I I got his back in it and then Iarly scored it in the end course. Yeah. Let's get that on the record. Yes, well, I scored the goal that no one remembers in that game. It was Diego Maradonna Was he as legendary then at that time? How well known was he? Was he at his peak? What would? I would say he was absolutely at his peak, mid twenties He was unbelievably good eighty six everyone would have known who he was. Oh yeah. He would have known world's biggest super star football. Do you think the defenders were told keep an eye on Diego? Well, I played in the game against him, so I know what we were told What were they say? No, the plan was whenever he got the ball as many people around him as possible. because if it was one on one he'd kill you really. It's like Messy now. You can't just mark him And it's very difficult because if you got you can't then go, well, we'll put three players on him because then you're outnumbered everywhere else. It was so good. I mean he was just played it was like a different game. It's like messy in him for me two players that my lifetime I didn't really see much of Pelle only caught the end of his career. In my lifetime, those two They do stuff that seems like impossible. And they' so similar, you know, diminutive, left footed, Argentinian Just so creative wonderful and they beat peopleat I mean his goal, and the pitch was like a cabbage patch. It was so bad that pitch and bumpy because they'd had problems with it. So how he did that little bit of skill on the halfway line? I'll never know Was it clear you were at the other side of the pitch? How did you say it? I mean for people who don't know was a goalanger. He basically he hit it with his hand. I remember watching I I think people will know that. I'm sure you don't have to say that wasn't but he's done with him. He wass like it looks like he might have done it with his. Well it's a little pun. He says that he said to his teammates, they weren't reacting. He said, comeome and hug me Probably. Because otherwise he'll the ref wt away at it. Yeah It was mad because I' definitely know the linesman saw it. Really? He admitted, he wrote he did a book on this whole thing and he was interviewed and he said I was pretty sure that he humbooled it, but I just didn't have the nerve. I thought, Oh cheers. Did you get to know Maradonna? Yeah, I did a documentary with him, a Louis Theru style documentary No, I didn't do it like that, but it was most I hadd spent three days with him. It was mental. I mean, he what period was this? This No, this is long after he's finished. but was he al right? because people don't substance abuse issues and weight abuse issues complicatedy, wasn't he? But honestly, spending two or three days with him, I don't see how it any other way everyverywhere. It was like, you know, the Monte Pyon thing film where The life of Brian where theyre following the Messiah it's a different I mean, that is his life. Everywhere he goes, he's like the Messiah. if you've been to Naples, it' literally shrines incredible to him from Yeah best time now. It's just mad that his life was nuts and I spent a bit of time with him, but he was also lovely Really great guy on thoughtoughtful And he was yeah. You got him to in fact I saw a clip from this, I think, and you got him to confess or admit to the fact that it was it was with his hand. I did. I remember thinking, how would Louis do that? No, you didn't I don't think you were doing these stuff back then. you would have been He said after the game, as we know, they said did you did how was the goal scored? He says it was a little bit of the foood of Maridon and a little bit of the foood Lant But then of the goal of the century, do you know his quote about that? He said, I don't think I could have done it against any other team because they all used to knock you down And then of the English side, they are probably the noblest in the world. Like he was like, why aren't they fouling me I get that. I get that. We're just we're just terribly good chams. I mean That's Maybe he wass just trying to be nice. Yeah.be When you look like, it's not like, oh, they could have foued him. they just didn't know what was going at them. I think Fenick would have fouled him because he definitely was not too nice. But he'd already had a yellow card So otherwise, I think he would have sized him down But I get what he's saying. We're not a team that just goes out Kicking people some would in those days in those days because you needed to commit seriously you grievous bodily harm to actually get even a yellow card back then. Really Yeah. It felt like that to me when I was being kicked anyway You mentioned Messi For you, he's the standout player of my life this generation of your lifetime. I never thought I'd see a better player than Diego and I'm not sure you might not necessarily be a better player, He's lived better, therefore he's had greater longevity and I think you have to take that into account. I mean can't explain how good he is. because he does stuff that I I mean, he he'd do four or five things in a game that I wouldn't have done in one game in my entire career And I played, you know, at the top. He plays like he's watching himself from above takeake away all the goals and the dribbles and stuff, his passing and his vision I just don't know how it's humanly possible. It's just bizarre. but I' got so much time for him. He's given me twenty years of joy watching him. What about Ronaldo? Christiana's incredible footballer. They're matched together, aren't they? They two They're different. They're different I always feel bad because people have a gur at me because they say, Oh, you don't like Ronaldo. It's not that don't like Ronaldo. I absolutely think he's an incredible footballer. But you can't there's no argument about who is the better footballer just anyone that understands the game will see that. But I've got so much admiration for Cristiano because he's You know,s's so driven and his career has been so successful and he scored so many goals. he's brilliant. and any of in many eras, he would, you know, he'd be the best player of his time. but But the fact that he's actually put in the same breath And lots of people do make the comparison is a huge compliment to him, really, of what he's achieved because he hasn't got the ability that Messi has. No one has But it's not an insult to Ronaldo to say that Weoplell get annoyed about that. Ronaldo fans. Yeah. And Ronaldo gets annoyed. you know, he doesn't speak to me anymore. Really? No, he used to be you know we used to get on all right and then suddenly you know I was interviewed or something and said, you know, I p's a better play well messy. And then then he doesn't like you anymore then. How's yourergy You're right? because a couple more things I wouldn't mind. Iound good. can I have a pee Yes So that's good becausecause I'm old. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah you could be betteretter if you did it in the bathroom, though. I'm not going gonna do it over the microphone Because otherwise we have to bring a mop in. or we I could cheit on the pat. We could talk about that. You can C you come back. It's funny This episode is brought to you by Shopify When you're starting a new venture Hort is everything Which is why you should lean on Shopify design an eye catching website customers y is the ultimate business partner built in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store is your brand Hundreds of templates for you to use. I even has commerce experts to help you out less See why businesses like Gym Shark Continue to trust Shopify. signign up for your one dollar per month trial today at Shopify. com Lash Louis L O U I S That's shhopify d. com slash Louis Could we deal with the What do you even call it? when you profoulled yourself on the pit Shit myself Shit myself, Gate. Yeah. S Gate Sitgate. Well, shitgate didn't really come to light. Well, it did at the time, obviously, but for about twenty years. No one seemed to know, Obviously my teammates knew and family I did tell family, but I was interviewed about twenty years later and the last question was Do you know there's a rumor that you you know You had an accident on the pitch in Italian nineteen. I told the story and then it So it went viral. I mean, it was the opening game of the World Cup in nineteen ninety. we were playing in Calary. And I hadn't very well overnight and my stomach was off. I don't know what it was Food poisoning was it? I don't think it was probablyood It might have been or a bg. it might be. He might be nerves or something. I don' think exactly. got on the pitchon I didn't tell Bobby because I wanted to play, you know? So and then I started cramping up again, about half an hour into the game and I thought, but I lasted till halfime, ran in the loooo and. So then I go back out for the second off. I thought I'd probably be al right now. and then about ten, fifteen minutes into the second off, stop cramping up again. I'm thinking, Oh my God. And the ball goes out to their left hand side So I'm running out there and I thought, I might get this in a slid trying to And as I slid, I relaxed and it just went Whoof And I've I'm on the pitch I've gone, o my fucking God I'm shoveling out my shorts and I'm doing like a dog, you know a dog wipes his ass on the grass. And then there's a brilliant clip because After I'd spoken about it, obviously they found the footage of it and it's quite obvious what's happened if you said I think I've seen the st. Yeah maybe. So So there's a bit where Gary Stevens, the right back comes up to me and he goes You're right, Linkx, I went, I know went. And you could l look at me over Sager I've shed myself You're not showing your shorts? Well, thankfully we had blue sht, dark blue ones Thankfully. I mean I need to shuffle it out. and the good thing was it had rained. so I'm wiping it all on the grass, andn't it? hygienie? Then after that, I thought, right, so I carry on playing. I did find a little bit more space after that fy enough. Nobody marked me too tightly anyway, so I'm playing and then with about ten minutes to go Bobby Robson you know took me off. Every ground in the world, right? almost every ground in the world, The dogout by the tunnel where the dressing room was, except for Cary, which is on the opposite side. So I go off and I have to sit on the bench with all the players and I sit on the end and you can see them gradually just sliding away in the chairs, just sliding along. Oh God, I was humming. It wast you know what I I went back into the dressing room at the end of the game gotten dressed in the toilet. and you know where they put the brush thing? I hid my kit in there because I was too embarrassed to take it back out. So I'd just like to apologise to the grounds person who ever found that stinking kit hidden under the thing because I was so embarrassed. Yeah, it was hellish, but it's quite funny now Yes It's quite funny now, but at the time it was actually pretty smelly I also like the idea that it remained a kind of secret or a rumor circulated in there. Then now it's become old calling card. I know, what a fool. You know Having had your storied footballing career, you went on to become a broadcaster at the highest level, fill in the shoes of legendary BBC presenter Des Liner. I remember that takever and thinking like okay He's no Dz. No, definitely Maybe the beginning you weren't, but no no it was back. It was funny, you know, when they because Des left for ITV and I'd gone in and I wanted to present because I just looked at other sports like with David Gow. Tennis was super Barker and they had like people that played their sport at the top. And I thought football might need that. Maybe I can do that and I'll get greater longevity. But anyway, so I'd been presenting football focus for a couple of years because Steve Reider had left. And then it was nineteen ninety nine, I think. and On Tuesdays, we had our football focus production meetings at lunchime And I drove into, you know, the White City into the car park. there's the guy on the gate. and the guy on the gate goes, Garary said. Terrible news, isn't it? I went, What's that? He went Des lineem's gone to I twoB I went O has he Oh. And I think I was the only person in the country that was quite happy. He went, Yeah, he said, who do you think you'll get the job? I said, Well, I better find out, In't I? Yeah. So it tough tough shoes to follow. but he was also, you know, having punditry alongside Des a little bit whileil was learning the craft. incredibly useful. Well, you have a similar just very natural, relaxed and barely presenting presenting style, of informal. We should reflect on the fact that your partparting from the BBC was much written about. Yes, it was rem The best thing to say about this Just as an overall observation is that you'd taken to Twitter with some alacrity. as it was then X as it is now and weren't shy about aerirring opinions, which you viewed as humanitarian opinions The BBC and some newspapers and presumably others viewed it as political a spicy political commentary The two standout moments, one was comment that compared government policy on migrants to Germany in the thirties It was a language not dissimilar to that used in Germany in the thirties, which it was I think an accurate that got People riled up? Yes, it did a little. And it was in a sense the footballing metaphor would be I guess the BBC gave you a yellow a yellow card on that one or I was due one. Was that the moment when they suspended you from That was when they took me off the show. ye. I think it was an overaction on their part and their sububsequent apology at the end of it suggested that was the case. Was that twenty twenty three? I't know was it? I remember seeing you shortly afterwardsree years ago, wasn't it? Wimbledon. Yeah And it was lastight. It was like the next day or two. It was And then I was Surprised to see how relaxed you appeared to be presumably these tabloids were Yeah they were outside the house. On that particular occasion I I was totally at ease with what I'd done. I thought it was humanitarian. Someone was having a real dig at me in not a very nice manner I responded And I thought I was factually correct Some people took Combridge with it and no one spotted it for a while, but because it was only a little reply. It wasn't a main tweet And I was comfortable because I didn't think I'd done anything wrong. I don't think it was a particularly scandalous thing to say And also I think it's important perhaps to put into some kind of to of how it works in terms of you know, the balance that you have to have on BBC. So When I started at the BBC, there was no social media. then I started social media, but there were no restraints on people that work for the BBC, other than those in news and current affairs And then that shifted in around twenty nineteen. they completely moved the goalpost and decided that If you're at the BBC, you you can't have any kind of view on anything political whichich I've never really done on the political side of things. Nobody knows who I vote for. I've never said who I vote for. I've never told anyone to. And I said to them when they changed these rules. I said, I will continue post things that I feel are important about humanitarian issues and that we're going really, you'll be careful U So I actually was relaxed that because I didn't think I'd done anything wrong And then obviously I've got amazing show of support from people that I work with, you know, with Ian Wright and and Sera Ian Wright and Al and Shera said worth Gary suspended for match of the day. We're not going to do the show. Yeah. they I mean, Righty was first and he did it and I was in a I was in a restaurant in in London having lunch and got the news that they take me off the show which I saw on social media, is't personally first, which I thought was a bit strange and The day before I was having a chat We're in a little group chat Whats up group chat with Allan and Righty I said, I've got a feeling they might take me off the show and write immediately If they do that, I'm not doing it. in solidarity, I'm not doing much today. And I was like It was like a real wow moment. just because I didn't ask them to do. I would never ask them to do. I didn't expect them to do that, but you know, it was just an amazing. then Allan followed and then there was you know Micah and Germaine And I just thought, this is just so mad for just one little reply to someone, everythingthing that's happened And then with, you know, they You know, I had a conversation before that lunch with the BBC saying, we want, you know, you've got to apologise. I said, I don't think I've got anything to apologise. I'm not going to do. Who do you talk to in that moment? It was Tim Dav.o was Chairman Charlotte Moo. Charlotte M. They were the two that were involved in it. I I get on well with both of them. I like both of them. I understand the pressures that in So they said we want you to apologize. Yeah. I think the BBC's problem in this and I understand why it happens. I think they've so obsessed with trying to plicate pease or keep happy you know, the daily mail type newspapers. doing that to people that get rid of the license for in a heartbeat. They just don't want the BBC to because they're competitors to the BBC And then you know, from them asking for You know, for me to apologize, they end up apologizing. So fast forward what a year or a year and a half or so And you posted an Instagram story or shared an Instagram story That was totally different That I felt bad about From a group called Palestine lobby which said Zionism explained in two minutes and featured An emoji seemed to be an illustration evoke or a mouse. Yeah, which I didn't say obviously. I mean I mean I don't think anyone actually believes I would have posted that if Which was pointed out to you is an anti Semitic insult referring to languageed Ny, German to characterize Jew. Yes, whichich, you know, obviously I learned about that pretty quickly after that. That one I felt bad about because that was my mistake. That was my mistake. because I You know, it was not with intent. could see why some people would be upset by that. So that I felt bad about and was happy to apologise which I did I think by that stake, I think we're like a marriage with a BBC. We've been together for a long time and it was starting to run out of love for each other. So But I'll always loveved the BBC. It's an amazing, amazing corporation. So that sped up the departure. sped up the departure. The Curtain came down. Yeah. I was going anyway, but we just brought it forward it seemed to be the sensible thing to do. U I remember reading a column In the Times where they said BBC must stand up to brazen Gary Linaker. Did you read that? I don't read Because the Daily Mail obviously has a got the telegraph as well. In the centrist papers like the Times sort of Wite Leaning or centrist when they've got the knives out's different. And I want to share this with you because it gave me pause. It came from someone who sometometimes works for the BBC who professors to love the BBC And he wrote, too get the job, he, meaning you gave assurances about his commitment to the impartiality of the BBC. That's not true, though And he said It's an interesting s. He said he signed up to impartiality as stated and gave repeated undertakings. he would honor it. He then serily and brazenly betrayed his word. Who said that? Matthew's S. Well, Matthew's S side is click there, isn't he So I understand why he said that, but he's wrong Because obviously, as I explained before, when you when you joined the there was no such thing as There was no s thing in social media actually when I started. so that's obviously nonsance Partiality only applied to those in news and current affairs. And then as social media started to change, the BBC changed their guidelines and their guidelines not It's not in contract. There's nothing in my contract. So he's wrong. He's fundamentally wrong, Matthew. I mean I'm sure he'll apologize when I see next you know him. I know him vaguely yeah. and I'm sure he apologized, but he wouldnt he probably didn't know that. And I think I was I always tryed to be sensible. Obviously, you know, some people would disagree with that and that's fine But I never ever said what Matthew Sed said. I'd never heard that actually before. I didn't really No, I genuinely never because know, and then social media was interesting because it came along and it P peopleople said, when did you start having these views? probably always, but Suddenly you've got a platform to share them in hindsight, wouldould I do it differently I don't know don't know, probablyably not. probablyrobably not. You wouldn't share that I would have sh That was just that was a mistake. That was you know that was obviously I didn't see that. othertherwise I would not have shared it. And you know I've made that very clear. I don't think anyone seriously, even the haters think that I did that did that on purpose. I am stupid but I'm not that stupid It felt like u You represented something as well. you know at a time when for whatever reason, whether it's partly social media or the times we live in or some sort of backlash against perceived wokeness that you were the avatar for kind of rich guy liberal Virtue signaling, right? people because it always come out. Highest paid BBC presenter Gary Linaker Out of touch smug. You were like a scratching post Yeah, how no I mean, I don't take much notice of it and it doesn't bother me because I haters going to hate, you know However, if you're in the public life, there will always be a percentage of people that just don't like you. They don't know you. but they'll decide that there's something about you that they don't like. and they They' label you with You know, things that you've just said like virtual signing and stuff like that. It'd a lot easier not that if I didn't care about stuff Unfortunately, I do I wonder if you know, I've increasingly sort of disconnected from social media. because feel because I feel like you in the end you're sort of just throwing red meat to your followers who already agree with you No, I totally agree with you on that I've thought about that a lot And I don't think it makes any difference, although people will say otherwise, you know, I've stuck up with people in Gaza and stuff and, you know Palestinian people and the sayingi it really does make a difference. becauseence silence is you've also got to wrestle with that if you decide not to say something. Ultimately the only I don't think I can influence anyone But I have to live with myself And at the end of the day, if I can go look myself in the mirror and think that I've done something right rather than not do anything at all. That's important to me. And the ells would never be critical of anyone that doesn't say anything Because the only person you can control is yourself And and I've had these thoughts, you know, long time about so. I mean, I don't bother with X anymore because because it's just toxic nonsense. Whenere did you stop two a couple of years ago? probablyrobably beforefore that they proific. I was. Yeah, I loved it. I enjoyed it. It used to be I'd have conversations and have fun where it dated. I about addict possibly? Well, if I was I managed to stop the addiction quite easily, so I suspect not. But it was fun. You sent fifty thousand tweets apparently A day O a good day. Yeah. No ye. W that possible? that was the data that my team came up with. I have no idea. fifty thousand. you've just over what twelve years. that? Is that a single man thing, do you think Well, I'm on my own. I'm not married. I've been single since twenty six sixteen So I've been sining for ten years eight of which there would have been on my own sitting at home, so maybe. but now I' I've we I wean myself off it very easily I mean, I've still got my ex thing and I will if someone asks me like the charity thing or promote one of our podcasts or a new podcast or an episode and I just automatically do. but How are you enjoying Bachelorhood I like being on my own. I've got so accustomed to it now and being Sightly selfish but unanswerable to anyone. Are you just alone in a big house L you do in a film. Just you and a dog Mander Dg But my boys are always round. I mean they're very, very raound. And room to room like Bunny Tyler in total eclipse of the heart? No cararrying candles. No it's odd. It's like a Hollywood legend. In all football short. your football short. Not the ones that I chatting, notot those. No, No I'm allright. I'm fine. donon't worry. You like your own company? I'm absolutely happy on my own. I got romance. No, I think I'm doneone. I think I don't know. You never know, but I think I'm noone. I don't know. I just can't I'm notying. I can't imagine actually living with someone again. What about physical needs You get to a certain age where it's so much effort Bringing a winch and a cree. Yeah. And a big blue pill Really? Yeah, I don't know. it might change, but you know, I love women's company. And I've got a lot of friends that I've go out to dinner with. Ive never worked I love that social media. What do they call like Reya? Do you know about Reya That's dating out. It a dating app for like the far high end. Yeah, one of the hotel. Well, one of my boys is on actually So Mike still picks you up when you're whispering But you wouldn' that wouldn't be a road you go down. It must be tough though if you're as famous as you are. like National treasure. No, I wouldn't know headline. I'm not honestly. Would that be a headline in the mail, Gary Linaker spotted on Rhea? Devin O Rya, not the goalkeeper Yeah. Caroln forgot to feed R. I made a football in joke. Not the goalkeeper. Hey, yes, very good. Galkeeper four. Well, he used to be Brentford and now he's arrsenal. Correct. Yeah. Well done. I think look how are we going to coast out on something in finish You know Podcasting is your latest Field of you ever done one? accomplishment I'm thinking of going into it Yeah You know, it's been remarked a lot that you've you're outstanding and football then broadcasting now podcasting, you make it seem quite effortless. You could almost say that in the same way that you would stick your leg out and score a goal. You should have stick your leg out in other fields and score metaphorical goals, right? And of you know, the odd own goal along the way, but that's life It's life U What's the secret? I think really designated podcast. I mean, is it obviously like This is a good very service podcast you seem to have a knack for having good people around you as well. Is that part of that? Definitely We got in early and we got lucky with obviously one or two of our. The first ones were The first one was with me and Danny Baker, but then actually called Behind closed doorshind closed doors. And then we was that an always on as they call it? No. No, we would destabling. We did two or three serals. Was it during lockdown? It started just it started before that it was about twenty sixteen was the premise? It was football had meets footballer fan. And so it was different stories and letters people sending in questions and stuff I thought something in this did quite well. We got a book deal And then Tony my business partner at the time there's three of us now, but at the time it was just Tony and myself Tony, what's his? Tony Pastor. and He was in a book shop looking for a World War II book because he's a massive World War Io ficionado And he said, four of the top ten books or something were World War two books. And he said,, he said, I'm going to find a podcast about World War two. couldn't find one. He said, Why don't we do a podcast about Worldw? We'd always just done sport. He was working me at the BBC sport years ago. and he went, ye, yeah, and we ended up getting James Holland, Tom Holland's brother, who does rest his history. and Al Murray, the comedian who's absolutely wacky about knows everything about Worldw. And that's still going to this day. It has World War II Festival, which we have late summer every year. It's hugely popular, does really well. and from that, what' it called? It's called We haveave Ways of Making you talk. So then had the idea of James' brother, Tom Holland to do one on all history. And Tom it took months to try and find his partner to do it with. And in the end I think Tony sat him down he said, if you're in a pub you' with all your historian mates Who would you want to sit next to? You went, Dominic and think we can say the rest is history.. It's the biggest part in the world It was announced by Apple recently. Wow. It's extraordinary. And then then from there we branched out with politics politorynced it that we had the idea of getting what neighbors over the corridor do it there. Yeah. And that became a huge hit as well. So politics and then we branched out from there and now we've got, you know classified all So crazy. I know. It's an amazing business. and do you know what? you know, we talked about the things didn't we the football and and some of the politics and all the things that I've had in my life where it's nearly all wonderful and great and people are always nice But there's always some people whenever pop out here Yeah. But with the podcast there it's amazing everywhere I get stopped. I love the rest his entertain. I love the rest restest hiss history is amazing. I love the rest of his football. And it's like You sometimes waiting for the butt or Oh I ate you I don't like your but. Because people listen to it because they enjoy it. It's not you know, it's different from other things where you on the BBC and they, you know, they might love football but they might not like you Whereas if it's a podcast, you're not going to tune into somebody that you don't like. That's right. So that's the upside. The downside is we have less of a shared culture. we have less of a public square because people can opt out or opt into whatever they want. The good side is that you're not really exposed to people that you necessarily wouldn't want to hear from. How involved are you I I do for podcasts a week myself. so three episodes of football and one Spanish football Um I don't go in the office every day. Tony and Jack Jack Davenport run. They do all the work, you know, I'm basically like I was just my whole career. My whole career. let everyveryone else do the work and then get all the I get all the praise at the end of it. E'sactly the same as my football crewam. you' comping about the box going it Do know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. I think I was yeah, I was born to be in the box I became reasonably good on the box and I'll soon be in a box. Is that a way to finish a podcast? I should have a whistle. Actually it's the falter It's the long whistle blow that signals it's the end of the game. It's not like stop play for a free kick or something. That was the end Extra time No penalties. okay, that was a footballing metaphor Do I know anything about football? I'll leave that. to you to decide. I do want to apologize to regular listener, Jack Greish. I don't know if Jack's a listener Or a watcher indeed. I would love it if he were. I'm a fan of his footballing. I think I said brring Jack Horn and then he runs around in circles in the box and then loses the ball. He might have done that once and so Obviously he doesn't normally do that Obviously he's a brilliant footballer He's a joy to watch and he's got enormous calves The production team would like you to keep a positive channel open to Jack just in case he'd like to come on the show I read that But nevertheless, I endorse that I'd love to talk to Jack Him not getting nerves, Millie's written, meaning me. Do I get nerves when I'm playing or broadcasting? When I'm playing football, I get nerves I used to do a Monday night game withith the lads Mh Really found that funny? That's odd. That wasn't a joke M and the other lads would get together for a kick about I'm not carrying it off. I found that I was Out of the say thirty or so of us who took part be twenty or thirty I'd be in the bottom Pcentile. like I was the worst. I was the worst one And you would say, well, hang back, like just defend. That's not that difficult. But I found myself getting the urge to surge forward It was awkward. My ambition and competitiveness was in conflict with my capability and so it was kind of awkward. And there's also like it's a horrible thing when you look back and you see someone ball look up think, Am I going to pass to you and then they don't pass to you? and you're like I know why you're not passing to me because you think I'm just going lose the ball and you're not wrong So I would get nerves on the pitch there a little bit I get nerves in general Anything live? you made have seen. I did Saturday night live in the UK a few weeks ago and I did up a cameo. I wasn't the host, but it is as the title suggests live And I had two lines. onlyn two, and I was playing myself. I was doing a cameo I was Louis Thureu Not too much of a stretch you might think There is something about that moment before, in fact, the moments leading up to when you go on air and feeling Um anything could happen. you could blur something random, shit your pants, get the lines wrong Anyway, uh People said it was quite good. It was on Sky if you're interested. I haven't actually watched it yet. Did you see it I'm asking Millie Millie said it was good in a kind of non committal, tepid way She said it's genuinely good with no enthusiasm What needy me? Oh, if it's not unqualified enthusiastic endorsement, then it's a punch in the face. That's it for this week. Apart from the credits, the producer was Millie Chew, the assistant producer was Maisie Williams, The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Migueli Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. 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