Politics and Movie Biopic Plans

Hello and welcome back to the Louis Thu podcast. My guest today is world renowned chef, restestaururur and one time culinary enfant terrible Marco Pierre White. In nineteen ninety five, Marco became the youngest chef ever to be awarded three Michelin stars, Michelin After training under iconic chehefs Albertou, Pierre Kaufman and Raymond Blanc. All of those names will be coming up, so pay close attention. They're all legendary There's that word again, market off your bingo card. figures from the London restaurant scene of the eighties kind of French invasion The British invasion was a rock thing. I'm getting off pced. With his rock style looks, high profile relationships, and famously volatile reputation, Marco also became an unlikely celebrity figure Regularly appearing in the tabloids during the nineties and early two thousands, he is often credited with transforming British fine dining and has been dubbed the first celebrity chehef in a lineage that went on to spawn figures like Jamie Oliver Friend of the pod Over the course of his career, he trained a generation of other chefs who would go on to become household names, including Gordon Ramseay, maybe you've heard of him and Heston Blumenthal In nineteen ninety nine, Marer retired from the kitchen and relinquished his Michelin stars Michelin, transitioning to franchise businessman and brand ambassador and TV personality, featuring on Hell's Kitchen and master Chef. I wanted to speak to Marco because He's a genius I've actually never eaten any of his food. I bought one of the cookbooks, it looked complicated, so I didn't make any of them But I did watch a lot of his old programs And I got deep into the mind of the mysterious master of Mayhem that just all started they all started with them. It doesn't really even describe him. Anyway, it was a thrill because he is at the apex of his craft. Not now. he doesn't really cook that much anymore, but he definitely represents something in the culture We recorded this conversation in February at Spotify HQ. Marco joined me to promote his twenty year partnership with PNO Cruises It culminates this August with a dedicated anniversary cruise So if you enjoyed the chat and find Marco interesting, I definitely did, you might want to go on a PianNO cruise pay me to say that That was a freebie Quick warning, this conversation contains the strongest of language You know what that means, Milly Begins with a C end through the T It's not cat Sh I keep going I think I said it a couple of times. and then I got comfortable with it and then we listened to it back and it's like why does Louis keep dropping the sea bomb? So we've pulled it right back. All that and much, much more coming up This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything. Which is why you should lean on Shopify to design an eye catching website customers y is the ultimate business partner built in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store that matches your brand Hundreds of templates for you to use. Fi even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing See why businesses like Gyhop Continue to trust Shopify. signign up for your one dollar per month trial today at shopify. com slash Louis L O U I S That's shhopify d. com slash Louis You're quite big on the socials at the moment. I don't do it. My son does it. Does he? I wouldn't know how to. I've never sent an email in my life. I've never sent a fax. Seriously. I write letters You're going viral at the moment for eating a McDonald's hamburger Did you know that? That's not a crime. I didn't say it was. It's just the expression' on your face. the way you said it. well, it's only what Andy Walld did years ago. Yeah. So I thought I'd try one out. What did he do that was similar to that? It exactly the same without the Heinz. Did he? He ate a hamburger on a video. A McDonald's Yeah. Really But do you like McDonald's I think everywhere has a place to. Look, how can I say You obviously dine out lots. Do I? I'm sure I guess you not really. Okay, once a week, maybe, twice, once How many times did she become disappointed Dep to answer The one thing about McDonald's, you know exactly what you're getting It's as simple as that. And I think what's interesting about McDonald's is you go to a pub now And a burger is eighteen twenty quid. You look at that burger you've had for eighteen twenty quQid plus service charge. Th look at what McDonald's gives you. The way my brain works I start to look at the construction of a McDonald's. Yeah look at that What I find fascinating about McDonald's is they feed one percent of the world's population every day And they deliver consistency If you came to my house, I'd be stressing about and by the way, who knows it could even happen. I'd be stressing about what am I going to feed Marco? If you're a civilian and it was lunchtime, I'd say, I'm making myself a fish finger sandwich. Would you like one? I'd love one. Would you? It works, doesn't it? It's delicious Let's I grate a little cheese on it I grill the dish about cheese I used to put some bourchin on there. I don't know if that works. No I don't know about cheese on the fish for.an I say something, please? The truth is As long as you enjoy it.. That's what's important, isn't it Well, yes, but then if you didn't enjoy it, I think I'd But I just ask for no bosan. Really? I'd ask fored. I've normally shedd on it, really. I suppose it's sort of like fish pie in a bun really, isn't it? Weith breadcumbs Yeah. But I do like fish fingers. I think they're fun things. I was thinking about I was talking to someone yesterday about this. You may be one of the probably the most In your field, the most celebrated guest we've ever had. I mean, we've had some illustrious guests, but you We're a generational talent U Anthony Bourdain, a friend of yours One said, he single handedly changed Britain's culinary destiny Of you You absolutely transformed the landscape that you went into. And you came up obviously from Ls, working class background in a council of state I'm just curious for people for the general public who won't have had the chance to eat at one of your restaurants U What was it that you did and how were you able to do it at that moment in the culture Could you summarize how it was you transformed the landscape Well, that was Anthony's opinion The world that I entered It was the old world. It was Ikcofia's world. I saw the tail end of it. And then I saw the beginning of the modern world And I started my career at the Hotel Stt George in Harrogate Which was very blue color. It sounds quite I read your book andound it sounding grand as well though, in its way It was It was the most beautiful contradiction. Like my chef In one hand, he held the feather, and in the other hand, he held the hammer. It was extraordinary. So Den, what was his name? Stephan Wilkinson? Stephen Wilkinson. He should have set the template for the abusive chef that you were then later on characterized as and then Gordon Ramseay and others. He said he used the word forgive my language right now You said he used the word knt like it was your Christian name But you knew On the twentieth of march nineteen seventy eight. At six PM. My chehef to partarty, which means headad of a section. You said, Marco, the first thing you have to learn about service It services service And no one ever says that anymore. What doess that mean That's what I said. What does that mean, Michael And he said When the chef shouts at you, when he tells you to run, when he screams He pushes you out of the way You just say, yes, chehef You don't question it But remember, Maru, it's service, it's not personal And that's what I learn from a very young age Because it was all about the standards, it was all about the food. It was all about serving food hot The world we live in today is like going to a canopy party smallm portions, everyone eating the same. You're told what you're eating. you're told how to eat it. you have a mouthful, and then they ask you Did you enjoy it That's not an experience I want Why not? what's wrong with that? Okay, let me ask you a question. You're talking about the modern restaurant cure. What's right with it? Because gu on the table say we specializeed in small portions. Food is for sharing. It comes as you we bring it as it is made. it's notar main courseuse. It's multiple cases. Yeah. So it's like a cpy What chefs have done today is that they've taken Canopies and put them on small plates and they tell you it's a course. When you reading digging into your story There's this extraordinary trajectory of success. It reminded me in some ways of reading almost like a Harry Potter or a Luke Skywalkert narrative You have the young you have the hero's journey from growing up. It's striking that you actually weren't particularly fixated on food as a young man growrewing up in a Leeds council state. Your father was a cook but he didn't really bring his When he didn't really invite you to where he worked, he cooked Sunday roasts, but he didn't maybe educate you in food at all that much And so it wasn't asough it was a fixation. You were interested in hunting and fishing. Nature. And nature, but you didn't it wasn't like onene day, I'm going to be a chef. You just happened to be looking for work, you arrived at this restaurant, this hotel in Harrogate, and then you took to it. Can you explain what it was Was it at that moment where you thought this is the place for me? What was interesting, without realizing My apprenticeship as a cook Sted years before. But you didn't realize it? I didn't realize. Wing my mother, Clamp the mincer to the side of the table Menticing. the meet for the balloners Watching my mother cook the risotto, the spaghetti, as I sat on the side. Biling chicken which was almost like a bullet pot Their mum passed And I turn to nature That's why I felt safe non street corners like everybody else And what I realized when I look back on my life, mother nature became my surrogate mother ' your mom died when you were six, didn't she die of a brain hemorrhage after the birth of your younger brother? And that you talk about that a lot. That comes up a lot in your What's important is by talking about her, I keep her alive. But you would have been sick, so your memories of her would be fleeting at best, imagistic. I'm highly visual I remember so much. She was Italian. Had my mother not died at six and died when I was twelve. Th those memories would have been eroded And I't have different memories. I believe, but because my mother died at six All I had was those memories of that moment But because I'm highy visual Therefore, my retention is almost better than my brothererss because they're not as visual as I am And so I turned to nature. I was fascinated by pheasants on the Hold of estate. I was fascinated by woodcocks, by fish Look, you know, I used to catch trout with my hands, catching crayfish, but the native ones So there's love a fir with nature is where it all began. And so therefore, in later life, when I went to the Hotel St. George, I saw my first salmon come through like a silver bar, covered the sea lice, five pounds a pound it was. I saw the big Cornish cock crabs We started to fall in love with produce You said that We mentioned your mum died, she was Italian, your father was English, he was a chef. We said that. Am I right in thinking he was a drinker? Was he an alcoholic? I don't know whether he was an alcoholic, but he was a product of that world. He was a disciplinarian. you called him a one dimensional man at one time. I know you were a strange man for thirteen years after you left the North, you were down in London. Reading between the l, you're actually quite generous about him, not quite you're actually very generous about him in your book. You extenuate his shortcomings. He was a single father, right raising three kids, your younger brother, ended up being for a ad Well, not quite it was adopted byopted by your auntle my aunt, my uncle. Yeah, in Italy. your dad couldn't have hand it. I've got three kids plus a newborn. I can't deal with it. It sounded like quite a brutal upbringing that in certain respects you internalized strategies for survival that served you in good stead when it came to the bullying atmosphere of the kitchen. it If I think back and cash my mind through the filing cablets my mind before I ever walked into a kitchen. I'd already learn how to absorb pressure Abuse . You can call it abuse. Why don't you want to call it an abuse? Because it's a negative, right? I like to look at things as a positive, and I look at my father for his strengths, not his weaknesses. Many fathers would have walked away fromrom the three boys So can imagine putting a child a baby up? saying to the you know it must have been strange for you, saying There's a baby on now it's gone. He was two, three weeks old, was he? He became Italian, was sent off to Italy. He was thirteen days old. Craig and then he became Simone. Is that Well, Sam is his middle name. So they don't have a word for creating Italian, so he became Coni. Yeah. It's I look back at my life in those many defining moments And it's those defining moments that make us who we are, I believe. And had my Mother not died I may not have turned to nature But when I was very fortunate, yes, I was brought from a counil estate Around the top of my road was the old Mort Allton golf C I used to walk across that, a little bit of the More toown golf course and I was on the Hywood Eestate, designed by Capabity Brown, rather magnificent, rather beautiful. So from this hell I was living. But then I have this Wonderful world recle escape.ost un hell been at home with my father. wasas having no mother.. You went to your first after the is it the George? was it called the George Malcolm and Colin at the B. You with Malcolm and Colllin, a gay couple at the Bx Street, extraordinary Michelin starred restaurant in the North of Angland. Two stars. Two stars. Aually, you've mentioned them as being The two most gifted restaurateeurs you've ever met. Well, without question. They were Firsty They created an environment which was so magical. But I don't know another restaurant I've ever been to, which had the magic of the box tree To have gone there as a boy of seventeen years old and to have been exposed to that world the methods that Boxree used were conventional but what they created was deliciousness It was extraordinary Their generosity again was extraordinary. You left them, again, looking at your story, it's as though there's a series of I mean this is cass, apologies, but you know they talk nowadays about video games and boss battles and like there's a series of boss battles and then you go to the next level, you level up. It's almost like you absorb everything you need to from a certain kitchen and a restaurant and then you're ready to go on to the next level, right? So in this case, It was having finished after a year or two at the box tree in Ilkley, you decide to I think you decide you're going to go down to London. Is that right That's where everything happened was at the box traree And they used to always say You never know what the bosses think of you. until the day you give your notice And I said to Michael, Lawson, what does that mean Michael Lawson, who was the head chef. You sate me out on a Monday because he was a lonely man. He was a gentleman the most beautiful soul You said If they don't care for you, they just accept your notice If they like you and respect you and feel that you have a value They invite to the Chinese room and they'll offer you money So I gave my notice An an hour goes by I thought, I' could have just accept it. An hour and a half, maybe two hours and called to the Chinese room And I'm offered more money And I said no And I was court marthalled on the spot leaave from immediate effect That's how personal the boys were That's how much they'd invested in me. What's striking as well is that you talk about you found a new family and you' by this time you'd left home, your father either had or was about to remarry. You were estranged from him, perhaps from your brotherss two, I don't know. But this was your new family and you completely threw yourself in to your work life, You became totally dedicated girlfriends came and went, not so interested Hobbies, past times don't really figure much. You were completely married to the kitchen. I was addicted to you know, like people have addictions Mother Nature, food became my addiction It became the most important thing. I was so focused on just food. What they said to me W was Maru We knew you would go all the way You were very different to every other boy that had walked through the kitchen of the box tree You had almost magic fell out of your fingers. That's how they looked at me. the way I put things on a plate, the way I could coordinate. But remember, I was just replicating what had been shown by Michael Lawson Yeah, but sometimes replicating accurately. I remember exquisitely is it One of the great One of the great cooks I worked for very privileged in life to have worked with some extraordinary individuals. Mag Boujer held the highest position within the Roux compompany He was the chehef onal turned. Balbo was away in France, he'd go to assisted Gavroche If Chef Albon was away, he could assist Ou Gavrosche. If Kauman was away, he could assist Kaufman. Extraordinary man He gave me the hardest time ever. The hardest time ever He would stack the work so high So, so high And I had to plan my way through that work And then do us and be ready for service. What kind of thing? Oh, the amount of mves on pllati would make me do it'd make it almost impossible But because I was ruled and fueled by my fears of failure, by my insecurities push myself through those pain barriers I did everything I did my job I sat with him just before lockdown To have lunch with him And I said to Chef Mark I said Chef Why did you treat me like a CUNT when I was young It answer was the shortest You know why, Mako, you know why. He knew that it was within me to win through stoss Can you subtract the bullying, if you w to call it that and the cruelty, if you want to call it that or just the brutality from the kitchen and still keep standards I think what's important. The world is very different today When I was a booy startighting L Gavroche You were ruled like everybody else by em motion And everyone had the same dream That dream was to win three stars in Michelin. That dream was to be part of a three star Michelin or a two star The chef was your pied piper. We followed him. That's where Albero was a pied piper. We never questioned him. We followed him And those were the standards and that's what we had to deliver at whatever cost I mean, you talk in the book about Alberarou jabbing at you with a ladle, for example. I think that's right, isn't it or a spoon? And you get pissed off you I've had enough. I think you walk out at that I walk at them. Yeah I went back but I walked out on occasion. When you look back at like on YouTube, I invite listeners to check out many of the old videos of you in the kitchen Um I would say heaping invective or behaving. In fact, even in your book you talk about your willingness to use appropriate language if you felt someone was falling down on the job To a dispassionate observer, it might seem cruel Lots of people don't understand our world It's not personal having worked your way through these kitchens and working at the highest level and picking something up whether it's from Raymond Blanc, Albert Rou, Pierre Kaufman, Nico Lediny, these are legends of the London culinary scene, then you you decide to set out And make your own restaurant at the tender age of what twenty seven was it? twenty seven? sixty four when I got harvest. Was it And so Um And it was in South London. I was in South London. I was a sixteen year old or fif year old school boy. I remember it was strange because it wasn't considered a salubriious area. You were on the overlooking Wandsworth Common It was at the very sort of beginning of the Yuppy era, so I suppose things were changing. And and there was this sort of cliantele with cash to spend and wanting to be seen fine dining One of the things you became perhaps the most famous for alongside the food Was your willingness to eject peopleeople from the establishment, if you felt they were being rude You had a procedure called you called it the woos. Well, I didn't create that name. someomeone else did. The wooh, really? I never created that. I think that was Jan Kristov, my manager The reality is if customers were rude to the staff, or customers were swearing or making scenes at the table then they don't first be asked to be quiet If they continued then they were asked to leave We never asked for the bill. J please leave. I don't know if you've ever been in a restaurant People are behaving badly and that impacts on your taste. Well, especially even if they're just very noisy on so a large part. It was on the news this morning, wasn't it? Was it someome lady who used to be a news presenter went to a restaurant or a hotel in Kent and the behavior of a certain table brought their lunch. R. or the management never did anything about it. I think you have a duty and a responsibility to look after your clients. Everyone's there for a special reason, whatever that reason may be, whether it's a celebration, whether it's birthday or an engagement. who knows? And you have four city boys I think they were called Juppies in the eighties. Certainly were. Yeah much. And they behaved in a certain way And to the table next to them wasn't acceptable, so he'd asked them to refrain from swearing or being allowed They'd always say, Look how much money we've spent this evening They've missed the point. It wasn't about the money. They had to go. Would you come out and do it yourself or would your maatri D do it Sometimes it was myself or sometimes it was the Mara D If you say to someone, there's an account somewhere where One of your customers says You've had a word with them and they say you' made me look like a cunt in front of my wife. No what happened was? No what happened was? I'll tell you. So I arrive at the mirror Bell A Marian. This was a bit late, a different restaurant. This was the Mirabel. This would have been in the early two thousands. And I walk to my office and there's Marion, the header receptionist crying That's why you cry, Marian And she said, the man on whatever table Hold me a account So what table? and what was his name So I go to his table That a good evening Good good evening. I said, Do you have a problem This is word verbatim. He said no. Why'd you ask I said, Well, we'd like to step away from the table and we could have a private conversation. He said, D, you can say it here Susage My head receptionist Marian is in my office crying I'm now going to give you five minutes to make the decision whether you wish to apologize M You le I' in the bar And he came through to me And he said to me Why did you make me look like a I said I didn't, sir You did it yourself? Have you made your decision He said, we're leaving, I said that's the best decision. And the most sensible thing you've said this evening. Good night, sir Enjoy reading. In other versions, he says you just made me look like a cunt in front of my wife and friends and you said, That's because you are a cunt. That's not true. That's James Chapter twenty one of your book. But that's James Dean. Who's James Dean? He was the writer. Really? There's nothing wrong with poetic life. I dressed it up a bit. And you know it better than anybody, Louis I don't have to tell you. This episode is brought to you by Shopify When you're starting a new venture, support is everything Which is why you should lean on Shopify design an eye catching website. customers y is the ultimate business partner built in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store you to use ress less and start Businesses like Gymhark Continue to trust Shopify, sign up for your one dollar per month. Louis L O U I S slash Louis in the late eighties when when Harveyyss was going You specialized in sumptuous food. It was I'm trying to do justice to people. If you were a singer, we could play one of your songs. If you were a filmmaker, we'd talk about the scenes from the films maybe as a As a gastronome or a chef, we just have to describe the food a little bit. London Tes restaurant critic Jonathan Meads visited Harvey's And he said, I had brains on Gelt followed by rabbit in Long Gustine source It sounds You must have met Jackadent. You must met J have ye a few years ag. He was an extraordinary man. He was the most feared critic. Was he? The reality is It just me be very practical But the combination of rabbit and longstins that the French have done Chicken and clayfish, pully raies Oh Lap eo this fears. It's just one of those delicious combinations which works the Kulv elleavis with the rabbit. It's very delicious In that era, alongside your extraordinary culinary ability was the fact that you were very good looking. I don't know about that There's photographic evidence to prove it. But I still don't look at myself like that. I look at my children and think they're very beautiful. You were the rock star chef. yes. And you were in the middle of a lot of attention. Alan Crompton backack comes to see me and says, Marco, I'd like to do your PR So Alan Cromptonbatt does my PR for me. Did he bring in is it Bob Carlos? No. Wh what's his name? The photographer? Bob Clos Clark. Bob Carlos Clark whose iconic images defined your Mysterious allure. Well, they captured a moment in time within the world of gam. It was with a sharp knife looking vaguely murderous or with a cleaver lurking in front of a door. That was Bob. You weren't just a projection of his imagination. You had those qualities. Well, what happened was So Alan Crumb is are back now and this is what I say I always say Prompt him bad. Bob Cs Club. created the modern day chef. They created the celebrity chef, the two of them. That was you. How' that news You were the original. you were the originator As I say, they captured a moment in time the stars are aligned in some way And I suppose See, one of my struggles was the hierarchy of my industry They tried to suppress me. Who did? All of them. Name names All the names we' spoke about already. Different ways your ment. Th these French chefs based in London tryed to Alber, for example. Alberarou. Alberaru. Who called you a genius ' I am Albert was fantastic here I won my first st because he was my friend What might fest h And no one really felt threatened by one star Remember Albera saying to me in ' eighty nine, Marco? Don't change your menu. Don't change it, just refine it and in January, you will win your two stars in Michelin I never ever, ever changed my menu. I refined it But your point was why did what was they were trying to hold you back? is well this is now we're get into it. Now I win two stars in Michelin. Now the hierarchy They're trying to stop things. It's like, for example, you're getting too big, they're threatened That's right. but also I had all the press have been annoying for them. All those front covers, they'd worked all their lives and never. I had more in a year than they'd done in their entire lifetime. And worth saying you were in your twenties. When you got your third star, you were thirty three, the youngest, as I'm given to understand, the youngest Pers in history to win three stars. And the first British chef to win three stars? That's right I was lucky. O night The truth the truth is Lucky, stop it.on't Pulse modesty is not No, no, it's not false modesty As I said to your producer Success is born out of luck Luck is being given the opportunity. It's awareness of mind that takes advantage of that opportunity. I knew lots of great. Opportunity meets preparation. Napoleon said a general makes his own luck. That's true.. Women loved you. You've told a story in the past about being in the restaurant one time a woman left her husband at the table and came upstairs to find the lavatory. She passed you and gave you a look and you end up In your office together, I locked her on the roof. Well, that was afterwards. What p took? What took place in the office? Page is up, Lily. You must have it in your notescause I don' want to know. Why is that Well you keep on giving page numbers. I could find it, boy you don't need to know the penyway number But she describes fororttyish, full bodied wearing a low cut dress. She her husband That's James Steeen again. I think you should sit down with James rather than me. And then what Is that true story, th a true story It's a story Did you actually make love to the woman? No I did not make love to her.? I don't mean I in the old fashioned s. I kissed her Did you? I did. Where? on the lips And then then my phone rings and I excuse myself Can I answer the phone And The manager said to me, Maku The manag the husband is on the way up the stairs So I put it on the roof, and locked the door. this was February time. She climbed out the window No, she didn't. That's another story that one. is I locked the door, I locked the door, and How did you get to the roof? And I sit there because I was on the top floor Be it walked around like onto a terrace. And I'm telling my officer and this man appears ave you seen my wife? This must have been a clue for him. I said and what does she look like? Like of lots of people walking past my office. What a stupid thing that was And you describes herir? I said notot seen her mate, sorry And he disappeared. You probably had lipstick smeared all over youot off hand wiped off. I think that then. Butt who knows? I wasn't looking at myself. And I I then I rang downstairs and I said, Sean, when he's back at the table, let me know About fifteen minutes later he said, Maku, he rings me and he said, Maku, the husband back at the table. Look, I was a boy of twenty five years old Growing up discovering life and I u I let I open the door And there was a windswept lady, I think, suffering from hypothermia, and I said, yourour husband's back at the table. I never saw her again It was a funny story and it's turned into a sad story. I don't think he was sad. The way you said they were so plant if you looked like a child, like you were saying, I never saw her again. I didn't see her again, Louis. you expect hoping before you asked me. I'm preempting the questions, Louis. You thought it was going to lead to a second date I'm not that presumptuious But I wouldn't have been surprised or shocked. Did you make the most of it? It must have been a lot. You weren't a drinker or a drug taker. I But you were having I never I didn't start drinking until I was in my forties Why did you start? I gave up cooking You lush your way a bit when you you sort of were like You were like Alexander, who you conquered, there was no world left to conquer. You talk about being U haaving got your third star and it was like everything everything went out of the home ninety five, I won my three stars in ninety five I won my three stars That period of my life was highly Creative in one sense, but only destructive in another sense becausecause the amount I had to give was unhealthy What was interesting And I don't know if I've ever spoke about this is when I retired from the stove I was lost My decision was born out of a very simple thought I wasasn't happy been in the kitchen. He no longer excited me It was conveyor belt cuisine. It was cooking by numbers It was all about one. defefending Our reputation Defending our position Winning one star is very exciting. mayaybe the most exciting. Winning two stars is exciting, winning three stars is exciting Defending them is very boring But I came from a world My chef's position was behind the stove And that's where I was always behind the stove. And if I didn't touch it with my fingers, I touched it with my eyes with my palete. So I touched every single dish that left that kitchen Now I'm in a position where I'm doing a hundred hours a week I'm not happy Because now by' playing that defensive game, not that exciting game of creating. There's too much at risk. I saw Albertou losees three stars. I saw Copin loses three stars. What was that like? I was a man who told Albert He asked me what I knew. Really You had the inside knowledge, L you knew for some reason. How did you know? What happened was Gordon Ramsey told me Thank Grosch. Good Ramsy's father in law was a publisher He obviously knew where the book was being published. So Gordon told me, Albert rang me up and asked me if I knew anything. I said, I've heard one two things. It's all about Gavroche. I said I said I've been told that you've lost your star, how bad? Lost one of three. The one of three. Yeah. You've lost your style. He said, How'd you know that Micho? And I explained why how I knew it And it was true. Did it feel significant? He Of course, no one ever lost three stars. Albeo was the first person to win three stars. Albeo was the godfather of our world. He was the heavyweight in England in the UK. In the UK, enormous. And you did his face do something? Were you in part littlerophone? I found it rather sad The Albber had lost his three stars It's like I found it sad that Pierre lost his three stars. And I said, A few months later, I sat with Derek Brown, the head inspector of Michigan I said Mr. Brown. Why did Gavrosche lose her three stars and he said to me, I dined there four times last year And three times out of the four, it wasn't a three star meal Didt say it was bad if it wasn't a three star meal This is two So I'm not enjoying it I'm fishing one Sunday morning on the test for salmon and I catch a henfish And I unhook her and I release her back into the water. I arrest the pool In those days I smoked. I light a cigarette, I sit on the bench This little thought comes into my mind Marco You're being judged by people who have less knowledge than you So what's it worth The following day, I contacted Michelin. Until the twenty third of december nineteen ninety nine, I'll be stepping down from the stove and R will be takaking over I get my hpon There's a version where you say, I don't wish to be included in future editions of your book. Is that in my book by James Dean again It's been said that you can't's the conventional wisdom is you return your stars. You said, I don't want them, you can have them back. Which apparently is not something you can do. The reality is By stepping down from the kitchen, they have to take them off you You've told them. Really? You've told them, thinkink about it logically. Yeah. I'm no longer going to be in the kitchen. They This is in September, the guy goes to pron in October in those days I said Robert Read will be. Although there's chefs who have multiple restaurants with stars, right? And they can't be in all the restaurants at the same. reality is Today, see, in the world that I came from A chef had to behind his stove to have three stellars That's not the case today Can we talk, Ramsay Yes, of course we can talk Gordon. He said that I mean it's a storied relationship. You hired him, he talks about you brutalizing him in a way that he felt he learned from. Nevertheless, he was once asked which living This is in his biography. This is in Humble Pine. I'm sure it's the author.ight' been written by James Dean as well No, and it wasn't James it was somebody else. Which living person do you dislike the most? he was once asked, Marco he's two faced. He also said What was the worst thing anybody has ever said to you U There was a situation at Harvey's we were in full flight in the kitchen. Marco was in the way. I couldn't get to the steamer, I pushed him out of the way. He elbowed me. so I dropped some red mullet. He said, You're like dogshit Always in the middle of the road. That's not true And then there were times when you feuded. He then there was a famous case where he accused you or someone with you of stealing his reservations book in order to undermine his bookking. But himt you read his autobiography. And then he later went on and said actually no one stole it. He pretended or he stole it from himself. Maru, That's what he says in the book Did you value Gordon's ability in the kitchen Gordon came to me as a young man He was, I think he must have been about twenty one when he came to me. He works in the internal It's July eighty ninth So you started in the January of eightighty eight So he did My few months with me. Um I got him a job at Gavroche with Elba. So he went to work in Gavloche and then from Gavlrosche, he went to work for Guis saervoir And I assisted him and helped him with France Be I liked Gordon. He was kind. He had worked hard for me and he asked me for a favour and I did that favour. talented He is a great technician,'s Gordon A really good technician And then he came then he went to R history I Gordon is, u When I always think of Gord when I think of Gord, his plates are clean, they're always tidy That's tidy And they're consistent. And that's what it takes to win three stars in Michigan. Great technician, great pallet, tidy plates, consistent These are interesting facts. I'm not getting the feelings. Watch me the feelings Well U Did you like him? I like God, yes. You made him cry. He made himself cry He was chopping onions at the time, Louis That see, that's trivializing, because he wasn't chopping onions. He weren't there No, but I've read the story. I don't recall what he'd done wrong, but I monstered him and he lost it. Gordon, this is you speaking. Gordon crouched down on the floor in the corner of the kitchen. Not tr. Buried his head in his hands. That's James Staines. This isn't even from your book This is from a profile in the New York Times. Gordon crouched down on the floor in the corner of the kitchen, buried his head in his hands and started sobbing I don't care what you do to me, he said as he wept. Hit me. I don't care. Sack me, I don't care I was hardly going to sack him he was leaving the next day I sue the New York Times for defamation They accused you of they kind of cavalierly suggested you were a drinker and drug taker and you pointed out you were a. What they said was that I had a well publicized bout dr drrugs alcool. I'd never taken a drug in my life and I didn't drink So if you think If they're prepared to wr if they're prepared to write that They're prepared to write anything Perhaps I created the monster, it continues. Ramsay the monster who ended up as a TV personality screaming at celebrities on Hell's kitchen doing to them what I had done to him. It's unlikely we shall ever know each other again. Can I ask you the question is This is a punch I wait. when I cut No, no, that is Is that not true? That is not true. Really? Wh bit What's true is Gordon Cried And it was his last night or his second to last night I think it was his last night. it was highly emotional for him. D do you remember? I did say anythingcept the record. And he did say to me I don't care, M, J just fucking hit me head whatever He was very upset. Why was he upset? It's al those thirties plus years ago Do you think that you created the Ramsay persona in some way that he kind of internalized I cannot be held responsible for that Tell me is God is his own creation. Like I'm my own creation. You're your own creation. We're responsible for our own journeys and life and It's at the end of the day G and I go back. Let's be honest now, we go back. Fortty years, De Gordon and I. Are you friendly now? Yes, we're doing a TV show together. When the press? attacked my son the other week Gorgeous some in the most, beautiful text Soon The G Ramsy the press want to talk about is not the G Ramsay I know Gordon Ramseay, as far as I'm concerned, is a beautiful boy U You got into some hot water, you appeared to possibly I say this very hesitantly Indorse Nigel Farage I don't endorse anybody. I' never voted in my life. Haven't you? No. He is a customer. Of what? Of the hotel in Barath. Really? Which is called the Burlo He's a custer so he comes in do you like his vibe You know him I wouldn't say that I know him. I've been in his company briefly on one occasion, but he's been when I've not been there but he's very polite. He comes across as being very honest And I think he's very clever. So you're not a political animal really? No. No, my favite lookook I used to have lunch with Thatcher when I was a young man in the Morabt. Yeah. She was special. You actually would be you and her and who else? Denis Lord Churchill, stop it Soee've been arrested The beauty of the beauty of being a arresturateur. is everyone crosses your path? What did I supposose get wrong about Thatcher And Dennis Well, Dendy's was Very supportive, I would say. He was kind off her.. He was very kind, very understated Statue was always interested in your thoughts, not her thoughts, which I found interesting What did she like to eat Straightforward, simple food But for example, she once asked me one of the questions she once asked me, She said Maku. When you promote someone into a senior position, what makes you make that decision? She said that. What was interesting? All her questions were like that. They were very simple. Her construction of sentence was very simple. What did you say I said, when I promote someone to a senior position They must promote the company not themselves And she said, I was sitting here. She said, They must promote the company, not themselves And then she said, You're absolutely right. She'd never point her finger at you. She' always hold in the air. Really She wasn't really very polite How's your energy? Are you al right? you're doing okay? You're not thinking I've takaking you hostage? What are you implying that I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome It could be. I read that they were turning your life into a movie. Russell Crow was attached. Ited It started with Ridley, Ridley Scott was to direct Yes, so it really signs me up and I forget the name of the Nicholas was the The screenwriter, and I worked with him And Then Ridley brings Ruslin. who'd been in Gladiator, which Ridley directed And so I go to Dunagglen I've been told by Ridley. So I go to Ananaglen. Is that where he lives? That's where Russell lives. Russell. In Australia. Okay Something harbour. Toth. You flew all the way to Australia. Yeah. So I spend a week, ten days with Russell. Just hanging. Wow. And everything I do, he films everything I say, he films Really And then Ridley and Russell fall out So now I'm on the fence. and I have to make a decision Russell Al really. I just spent ten days withith Russell. His mother and father were very kind to me They all looked after me and made my stay very comfortable and enjoyable So I went with Russell. For now, I get to know Russell And then it's time to renew The option And they want to renew the option And I said no I had time to think about it I think it's better they make a movie if they want to make a movie on me when I'm dead Not while I'm alive. Died when I was asked to read my book, The Devil in the Kitchen. And I got to that moment to read about my mother's life, dying. I put the book down, it's fine So when you tell me things like you did today I don't know because I've not read it.. So you've given me insight to how simple stories become fabricated stories. but I suppose people want to make things more exciting, more romantic. Maybe. I suppose it's called poetic license So you can't do that with food Do you get in the kitchen much yourself? I help the boys. I like it. Rudlow? A Rudlow, yes. So I like so. Because you've said that you hate cooking You're on record of saying that you hate cooking? Well, I don't know. I can find it if you like. Oh, I don't care. Maybe it was like Maybe it was when you felt burned out by the high octane cooking of Michelin Stark. No I like to cook, I like to teach I like cooking gravy for Christmas dayay lunch. I like making the stuffing at Christmas Day. So on Christmas Day, I always go in the kitchen with the boys and the girls and then we make the gravy from the tiblets I do use the giblets. I use the gizzards, the hearts, and the liver. I dice some very small And then tpe when it's away, we put the juts in the very last minute. And then we put the turkey fat back into it. So it's a gras. So it's like a jou gras. So when we make the gravy, gravy is gravy and it's delicious When you take The fat from the roasting of the bones you pour out some of it into the gravy, but you don't mix it in. So it's a split sauce, like any way I can describe it so it's like Balamicore and oliveil is split. Yeah. So when you put it over your bird gravy runs off, but then it's French varnished with the fat the gras, which changes everything. The gras is the most important, and because the flavours in the fat There's a lot of fake flavor in the fat. when you think rendered turkey fat is deliciously good Do you ever use an air fryer No. They you. Yes, they're quite good. And you know that thing They're very fast. They're like the sort of Ferrari in the kiten aren't they? Sometimes you can get, say you get chicken thighs and then some recipes called you remove the skin. you, what am I going to do with the skin? Put it in their fry. skin's delicious. And you can make little kind of chicken skin crisps And then at the bottom of the air fryer, what do you have All the fat. Oh the grass. Yeah, and you can all that. So keep that Pop that in the fridge. Pop that in your gravy. You You can do thatah use it with your potatoes or something. Delicious. Dious And theick and the little crispy skin is nice. Gee, my mother used to ball chicken So good with vegetables. That sounds. But then the skin would be gelatlous and wish. Because what happens is the skin renders that the lar that temperature surely. Lookcause if you think There's your vegetables, there's your chicken legs Not the breast, just the legs. cut the legs in half with the carrots, with the leeks with the celery, a bit of garlic All quite chunky. Boil that and simmer. And then at the last minute she threow olive oil on with parsley. Bayleeaf And we'd the best bit was actually getting your bread and butter and dipping it in the broth so deliciously good. Wouldn't those chicken legs The skin would be gelatinous, wouldn't it? Beautif Would you like to eat that? I did, and I still do. You don't like crispy skin I like both It's like when I was a boy at the Gavroche The staff would have a coid decana and the skin would be soft, notot crispy, Dellicious. I see when fat is cooked to perfection, it's so good We like all those secondary cuts. They taste much better. Who wants a breast where you can have a delicious thigh? Why There's still some michelin in you, isn't there? E though you saw through the veil, you realized, hey, you can't judge me. I'm above you. nevertheless It has some hold over you Could you ever see yourself going back It's too demanding. Mission has changed. todayoday. They dish them out Vetty. But you have to say at Mushlam I've done more for gastronomy than any individual or any other institution in this world. So you have to give credit where it's due. They create dreams for chefs Thanks so much for coming by. I think the doorors open. That means that theyre to kick us out. I think that's a very subtle hill. I know I hope you enjoyed yourself. I really did. It wass a real honor to have you come by. and thank you for being so generous with your time and service That's what they say in restaurants when the food has to go out, I've seen that. So I'm saying it now to say we're back And I hope you enjoyed, I hope you enjoyed that conversation It was a thrill doing it and specifically to see Marco. there's a lot of emotion there, deep feeling. When he was talking about the box tree in Ilkley Every I'm still boxree far more boxree Robishu. I'm far more booxree than I am. here. I'm far more on Bx Street. that's quite good, isn't it? You're making him a lot more northern than He said that's how he said he G's got that deep grumbling. Millie says I'm making more northern. Hello, he's from the North. He's from Leeds and actually the more relaxed he got, the more northern he got. I'm far more Bx Street I think if you check that, I don't think so. Okay, let us know if you think how good was my Marco Pierite impression What was the other thing he said? He had to tell wasas it Albererud that he'd lost One of his one of his Michelin stars, you've lost your star I've gone a bit. whoo I gone into now I've gone into sort of Jim Bowen Don't say the donon't say the JS word Um You've lost your michelin star. There's nothing I can do about it How do you know, Markob? I've been talking. Gordon's got a friend who works at the publishers You've lost your fucking star Nothing no. I'm getting way up. No, that's not even funny anymore That's just offensive. Fy a pick with Russell Crow. Who would play you? says Millie. Well, it's which period does it cover? Does it cover over the weird weekends years Oh does it cover The later years the glory is Does it cover the wilderness he is That's a joke. They've never been any wilderness years which years were you thinking about? Maybe these are the wilderness here. What do you mean when he started a podcast? He stopped doing documentaries and he did a podcast No one wants to see a film about that Do they? Definitely. Milly's written, we did cut it out, but he said you look like Arson Venger The skeletal Arsenal manager who's about a hundred years old But then it says Twilight years, Louis Biopic. Okay, so fair enough. Austen Vger's French, he's stylish and elegant. He's not he's not an unattractive man and he has a kind of They used to call him the prorofessor, did they and It's a privilege to be told that I look like a ninety five year old French man with a big nose And no evident body mass That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Mark Morne, the editor was Tom Fuller. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera, the executive producer was Aaron Fellllows. This is a Mindhouse stududios production For Spotify lean on sure ultimate business part. in support systems And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store. is your brand Hundreds of templates for you to use Si even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing See why businesses like Gymshark continue to trust Shopify. signign up for your one dollar per month trial today at Shopify. com Lash Louis L O U I S That's shhopify d. com slash Louis