Recovery journey and music career

Hello and welcome back to the Louis Thoru podcast Today I'm joined in the studio by model, actress and musician Cara D Levine After being scouted as a teenager, Kara quickly became one of the defining fashion models of the twenty ten s, known for her irreverent personality, sparkling friendship group, and distinctive eyebrows, which we talk about in the chat Throughout this period, she workaled for virtually every major luxury brand and became the muse of Chanel's iconic designer Call Lagafeld I don't know that much about fashion, can you already tell At the height of her modelling career She transitioned into acting, appearing in films including Paper Towns and Suicide Squad. Over the years, Cara has struggled publicly with substance abuse issues. She became sober in twenty twenty two The journey to which Kara speaks about in our chat. Since becoming sober, carar has embarked on a music career, recently releasing singles I forgot And out of my head from her debut album, Not Normal, which will be released this summer. And which also deals with her recovery journey. That's sort of the inspiration for her creativity on the project I was curious to speak to Kara. Well, as I mentioned, I'm not a huge fashion buff. this surprises you Nevertheless, it's the case and I thought Among other things, it would be a chance to explore the world world of aut couture Cat walks I've seen Zulanda one So I did a bit of research, Obviously I did more research than that But all the questions around what's sometimes characterized as you know both creative, avant garde, even but occasionally overly controlling and maybe even toxic We get into We recorded this conversation in June this year at Spotify HQ the previous evening I'd attended Cara's Gig in London, so we kick off talking about that. I was right at the back in the VIP area. Maybe even the VVIP area I was among such personages as Paul McCartney And Woody Harrelson Even for me, that's elite company I didn't talk to either of them in case you were wondering U Milly was with me and She seemed to want me to go over and maybe even Corrl them as future podcast guests And I was like, you know what? M, the cool thing is you've gott to find your moment and play it very fony like you don't want to be going up panting like a fanboy Anyway, the moment never came I never found the in. and at the end, do you remember they left through almost like a little Secret The back presumably to be bundled into choppers. If either of them want to come on the podcast they? Oh, thank you. Amillie said, if either of them want to come on the podcast door is open. to a conversation. We can't guarantee anything, but your application will be taken seriously We also ran into some technical issues in the first five minutes or so of the podcast. So apologies for that. there's no video to begin with It's not my I'm not taking them hip for that. That's all on Spotify A quick warning, this conversation contains strong language and references to drugs All that, as well as much else besides coming up This episode is brought to you by Shopify When you're starting a new venture, support is everything Which is why you should lean on Shopify tools to design an eye catching website reaches customers ultimate business partner built in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store that matches your brand. There's hundreds of templates for you to use Si even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing See why businesses like Gymshark continue to trust Shopify. sign up for your one dollar per month trial today at Sopify d. com slash. Louis L O U I S That's shhopify d. com slash Louis Did you have a late one? Yeah, I find it very hard too Wind down.s wind down. I was at the show last night, as you may know. I enjoyed it very much. Good. Guess who I was standing next to? I don't know Wh are you thinking of guessing? and then you Porm McCartney ye Yeah, maybe. standing there yeah I was gonna say Charles Devine. That's what I do. That was my second chob. That's your dad? That is my dad. What was Paul doing there? Because I know Stadlar and I've worked with Stadlter for a long time very. Cartney P Ctne Fashion Digner And I think Paul and Nancy took a bit of a shine to me. Stella didn't wasn't able to make it last night, but they came And it was very sweet. You know one and by the way, I enjoyed the show. it M must be pressure when you think you knew were performing in front of Paul McCartney, that's got to feel a bit pressure Yeah, I tried for the London shows to not know who was coming But then people text me so I know My band didn't know. and they found out afterwards and were gutted. Not gutted. The show was good, but there were issues. playaying under a train track is hard because the vibrations and there's so many ws and so many synths Wise wiggle out very easily. So a lot of the time there was nothing in my ears. I couldn't hear anything But it. No one knows because no one knows what the music sounds like. So I could say anything or sing anything I wanted and no one would know Kind of fun. For viewers or listeners We should make it clear that we were in a venue, I guess it's called Leak Street. Leak Street Yeah. And it was in a railway arch, which gives it a kind of cool industrial feel almost like a cave. It's like a cave. Like the cavern. Yeah of Liverpool, Legend where our friend Paul used to perform. There you go. But I didn't hear any train vibrations, but that me You wouldn't be able to because it's so loud. But before I go on, you can hear it and it's loud. You can feel it too, almost Hiny, that's what happens. Um You' accomplished now in many fields. and it's also striking that You were twice named Model of the Year in the British Fashion Awards twenty twelve, twenty fourteen. You are one of the most recognizable figures in fashion, if not the most, with your signature eyebrows, which I'm looking at now D you get tired of asking being asked about those Let'ess now It's been a while. It's nice hearing about them. They've missed they've missed the attention. Nice to have a signature. Yeah. you I mean, I'm always curious about I'd love to talk about your music, but I also want to talk about what kind of brought you to everyone's attention in the first place You wereigned, How old were you when you were assed as a model. seventeen is a model. Can you talk a little bit about how it all how it all took off? What was the process I had been scouted a few times, mostly out at Rves, which was kind of funny. The first time I was scouted, I was sixteen But I thought it was so funny that people thought I could be a model because I felt like Feral Chucky doll. put it politely But it happened a few times. and then I was at school, I dropped out of school. I was very depressed My parents said, you need to have a job if you're going to leave. And I said He My sister is at a modelling agency called StOorm That seemed like the best fit. so I went there. and It was not something I had a huge interest in. I didn't have a huge interest in anything at that point, apart from music, really Uh But I worked hard. I worked really hard. I did everything I needed to do. I made some great friends along the way, and then I got a job And I was like, I've made it. This is Everything, like this is what I can do for the rest of my life U because the idea of making money modeling felt really crazy because people really were not receptive to me for a long time. I was small, really small compared to people. and How tall are you? Five, seven and a half They'd put on my c, five eight or five nine And for a model that would be considered small. What would be a typical Size for a mon. I have ten Rym a runway for sure So in a way, you don't fit the classical expectation of what you would look like. Yes. But nevertheless, you were blowing up I don't personally think there was anything that striking about me. I didn't know that My eyebrows were very different to anyone else's, I guess. But at some point Berbberry too notice and they hired me and I'm grateful to this day for that because I Catapulted something. Was that a big moment My notes at I was trying to find out what was the moment when you kind of took off Like know you actually sort of it became we felt like, o, this is the coming person. like this is the new face that we're excited about. I don't know. I actually have no idea. heed it out I bet. I think it's when people th started comparing me to Kate Moss because I was small And we were the same agency. and they I remember there were articles being like the New K Mos, which wasn't great because I think I would never I could never live up to that, to her Obviously it's a compliment but I didn't They didn't believe it at the time. And it was exciting. It was so exciting. likeike I had I had a job and I was so confused and shocked and seeing a billboard of myself and meeting new people and It was incredible But it definitely didn't feel real and it definitely felt like it was someone else's dream though Really. A little bit I didn't want to be known for that. Not in a bad way. I just It wasn't my passion And now I have such an appreciation for fashion, I really didn't care about that stuff at that point creatively, it didn't fulfill me and it didn't let me breathe in a way, it felt like it was quite I had to like pause a part of myself. like I was moving and working a lot, but a part of me was stagnant From the world fromom the outside world, obviously to the non experts such as myself, the world of fashion It looks glamorous. Yeah It looks relative and this is going to and I know it probably isn't, but it looks relatively undemanding Nowk You like sure This is gonna sound offensive. No no. You like just walking up and downing, changing their outfits and You obviously you're in the chair, getting made up really boring. probably early starts, a lot of like just boring. Boring. A lot of sitting around, a lot of waiting Pe peopleople like, you're such a good model and I was like, what What does that even mean? It's not a skill. It is. there's a skill to it for sure.. talkal about the skill Knowing angles and lighting and cameras and how to move and how Suppose It's a weird skill. It's not really skilled that. is needed for anything else Walking you can be good or bad at walking. But it is it is hard in the way that I also think constantly aware of what you look like before the age of social media, even though it was happening during the age and the beginning of social media You become inherently insecure constantly worried about how you look and what you look like and creates just a whole other level of I've never met people who are more insecure either, notot always, but it does. bhe that. So it's hard mentally And yeah, there's a lot of sitting around and waiting and it's not as glamorous as people think. I think a lot of the time You see the pictures when really it's models sitting on the floor waiting around smoking smmoking so much. Yeah, diet cooakes all round you had a partnership, sort of a professional relationship with Carl Lagerfeld becoming his muse for designs for Chanel. Carl said a you, have you heard what he said? Charlie Chaplin, or then I've got that one as well. She's not I won't do the German accent. Carl Langenfeld is kind of he French German, it always sounded like to me, it was German. Germ It looks like he's out of Zoolander. H hundred percent. He's got the full caricature. He's got like. Candy floss like white hair in a ponytail a collar with three buttons on the front of the collar that looks like a Harry Hill comedy collar. long. And then he's got his jackets and then he's got pendants and necklaces aroundound his jackets fingless gloves. Fingler goves and dark glasses It's almost like, how can I look really sinister and intimidating? Yeah You look at people in fashion like that and you're like, reallyally? that's the guy deciding what looks good Yeah. He said She's not a standout beauty. Yeah. Was it Bacon who said, There is not beauty without some strangeness in the proportions. you Brutally honest Sometimes too much probably. But I agree with him I think he meant it as a compliment. Yeah But that's what I meant by the Kate Moss thing is that like I always said, if I'd been around in the nineties, I wouldn't have been a supermodel. It's because of the time and Instagram and everything else I don't think I stood a chance if we're talking about really like superficially beautiful people I don't think I compared It's my own opinion. People can have different ones He went on to say she's the Charlie Chaplin. Yeah H we go. which I love off the fashion world. She's a kind of genius like a character out of a silent movie I would see her better in a silent movie than a talkie because she overacents the movement I think at that point I was so ressive That's what he a Botox. It like a Louise Brooks like like the like the The what's the word damsel in distress or the woman in the silent movie who's having to do it all with her movement. H the movement? It was always about slapstick comedy and just movement. Yeah Girls admire her like they used to Kate Moss. They all want to be as free as her.' free Yeah We were aware of doing something differently. I was and I wasn't aware of this, but in the nineties and eighties and models and everyone was celebrated for their uniqueness and I think when I started Fashion became more like an army line up. Everyone looked the same and was so scared to speak up and like Lack of food, lack of energy, everyone's just very like I don't know their job, I guess. and I was also doing my job, but I did it in a different way. was I was trying to have fun all the time. And again, that came from a lot of sitting around and waiting. I'm not good at that. You know, I meant to be this like very buttoned up beautiful person, but underneath I just want to make funny faces and I don't know. I know I knew it was different. people because people really didn't like it And then people also really liked it. It was confusing was I was mami and I like that Well, it I mean, look, I'm gonna make this about me, which is I've found that the things that have given me whatever success I've had, it's been that I can't do the things you're supposed to do. like conventional broadcasting stuff, but you make whatever your perceived I know it's a cliche. Disability is you make it into your superpower, right? Isn't that the same thing? Yes. That's what you're talking about Exact same thing Um Jamil Jamil said of Call Laga felt. He was a ruthless fatphobic misogynist. Mh. I remember we had a tweet battle about it. Did you Kind of It was just after he died, it was like the day after And I just landed in Milan. Okay. And I was so annoyed at her. I was like, just Give it a second . He was a flawed human. like I get it. I understand. He said horrible things about women but he was a really kind person underneath it I mean, the fashion industry itself maybe inherently misogynistic and fatful. But either way, I just think it's It was rude We're fine now, obviously, it was A so point to read that stuff that she's written now The day after he died, I think I It came from a place of emotion and not rational thought But uh I love that you had a tweet battle. We did. That feels like It went back and forth for a while. It the equivalent of a jewel, you know with pistols How do do you take turns? like they tweet, then you tweet, then they tweet No, I don't know it was like a full rampage because it was we both were writing a lot. She's very sweet and I also think she You know, someone needs to have an opinion on all these things how do you decide when the tweet battleles over? O and who's oneon? I don't know good gosh. I don't think people win, that's the point you just have it out, you say, your peace and I deleted that app. so you know who wins peopleeople running the tech fl. There you go. rightight? driving the content. driving engagement Um I I'm laughing because I'm want to move on from Karl Loenfeld and then my eyes dropped on something else. Oh, but it doesn't No, come on. Okay fine. twenty nineteen, he said, If you don't want your pants pulled about, don't become a model. Join a nunnery There'll always be a place for you in the convent Yeah I miss that. Well, anyway, I've laughed and trivialized it. That's a rough one. If you don't want your pants pulled about, don't become a model. The kindest interpretation you could make is that you just me you're going to be fussed with. Oh, I don't think he means. I don't think he means se actuallyually assaulted. Maybe. it does sound like he might. what's interesting at that point during fashion The stuff that was going on in terms of sexual assault was so rampant. that's why I was like Really? Yeah, you're going to be foss st up out with though again, you have to get so used to having So many hands on you that you have no idea whose is what and what is where So But But did you just say that within the world of fashion sexual assault was rampant at that time? Yeah. You gone. Well, I just, you know, I think I remember going to like test shoots which are photographers. Why would you become a photographer of models, a straight man? unless you have some want to sleep with models, right? I guess It's a good way in there. Okay. I don't know. Maybe they want to do it because they really like taking photures of women, sure. But you can be a straight man and be a professional and not you know what I mean? You can try and sleep with models. I would I didn't meet one. Really? No Not at that point. and this I'm talking about young photographers. I'm not talking about older more established people Yeah, they would set so test shoots are they send models to do a test shoot, which is just photos for your book. So But they would offer girls alcohol way too young stop being sleazy. I think I was pretty hard headed at that point. So I was like, this isn' an okay I just remember being on a shoot with like Two girls who are younger than me, sixteen, fifteen And their mums were there and they were like, Okay, we want you to get naked and get in this bathtub together. And I was like, I'm not doing that. Their mom said yes And I was like I'm the only one who's of age and this feels really weird and I'm still that photo is somewhere It's horrible It looks like these are like young skinny girls in a bathtub naked being like, it's just that obviously is not sexual assault, but There was a lot was the age of Terry Richardson and that yeah, it was Terry Richardson was he was like the New York photographer who loved getting his dck out. Iish he'd got his dck out getting his stick out when he was doing his photo shoots Um Wh do How quickly were you making massive because you've gone from not having any money, left school fifteen. your parents are like, Well, you can live here, but we're not going to give you lot of money,, you' got to sort yourself out financially. And then suddenly you're making millions a year. No, God, no, that took a while because high fashion doesn't pay a lot. It's the catalog it's the the more commercial Fast fashion, I guess, you make more money from. High fashion, you're lucky to do it unless you do perfume That pays the most for some reason and Behind the scenes there was substance, substance issues U Can we say? Yeah, ye. The whole time I mean no, not the whole time I wasn't doing drugs all the time, but my relationship with them was the problem. Yeah, they were my best friend. they were my support They was a say that I could control my emotions with I thought, you know to ke me going. They sued me when I was alone. I hated being alone. It was all of those things. My relationship with them was a problem. And it was like that thing of like I can work so hard And then that's my like celebration you know, instead of working for so long or doing a film for a period of time and Having a week off, the week wouldn't be a holiday and rest. it would be benders. painting it which isn't nice for the body or mind, I suppose Which can be fun, right? and isn't sustainable indefinitely Was part of it getting through u fashion shows or you could you could you do those So, yeah yeah yeah. Yeahah, that wasn't op. did the mostly sober I remember I did, I think it was the biggest and I was opening a bunch of shows, opening shows like walking out first Pop shop was one of them. It was a bunch of different shows yeah, in London Fashion Week and I had not slept and I had to go and do like three shows that day. I remember opening tophop and I was walking a snake almost like waving But people thought it was on purpose, but it's because I couldn' P What what would what had you been taking? Probably ketamameine, cocaine and alcohol, I imagine I read that your alcohol's not really your was never really your thing. No, it was always there. I just that wasn't what I liked. wouldn't I wouldn't drink and not do drugs. I would for a long period of time, I only did drugs. I didn't drink at all I don't know why I just didn't like it. The hangovers because I'd never got I think in my twenties, I didn't I never came down. I always felt like You know, I was just working and partying and it was fine. But alcohol Like the feeling of being hung over? Absolutely not. There's spinning, any of that. C couldouldn't handle that It also felt too out of control feeling even though Catarine is Be in a chaos was pretty out of control, I would say I've never taken Ketamin. I don't know if I'm embarrassed to say that. No What's it like? It's a horse tranquilizer. It's a tranquilizer in general, because you can get given Ketamine in a hospital. N just horses. No, I remember being sold like Rhino Ketamin But it wasn't really Ryo Ketman. It's just how people sold it But yeah, and when I first started doing it too, I would do like If anyone who takes ketamine or has taken drugs knows You do a tiny bit of catamin and that's enough, but I would be doing like Really, really long Big lines because I just wanted to disappear, not like have a little bit and feel weird I wanted to just completely lose conscious tranquilized myself, I suppose My tolerance was so high with that stuff too the point where I'd go to a party and I'd give some to like, you know, a six foot five man and he'd be flaoowed by doing a tiny amount compared to what I was doing, which is W always the same man or it could be a different An man Like a big guy would be like, that's a lot. you know, I'll have that much. And I was like, no way this will knock you out. And it was kind of that bravado thing. He's like, if you can hand that, I can I can. And I was like, you do some of that and you'll be on the floor And it was true every time I was point it was a bit like, oh, I'm so hardcore. it was Pro very scary for people. Did you think this is what we do in our peer group, like this is just part of this is the scene. Were you escaping from something? Were you like, I'm having fun and I'm young and this is kind of the whirly gig Like live while you live while you're alive. All of it. All of you. All of that I was escaping, but I was also like, I work so hard. I you know, I get to have fun and I loved I had so much fun. like I have incredible memories and I wouldn't change any of it But there's also an element to escape in that show There always was, I think You know, you mentioned earlier that when you were fifteen Basically had some mental health issues. Was wouldould you call it a breakdown Ficial Be I lost touch with not reality, but I was suicidal and hurting myself and wanting to There was just the loudest voice in my head telling me I needed to disappear and all of it. It was just not nice. And I'd had that I that when I was pretty young when I was a kid. I just remember going into the sea and trying to swim. keep swimming until I drowned Not that I thought like, oh, but I was like, I'm just gonna swim Until him anymore. Hid up. Your momum hasen has token. What language am I speaking? I've never heard you I want my native German. Tolken has talken about Your momum spoken about her having mental health issues when you were growing up Yeah, and I think and substance abuse on and off In some form But also mental health issues and also physical health issues caused by a multitude of things. She went to Thailand and drank some tea by a monk that was meant to heal her and that caused her bowels to explode. That's when she nearly died when I was young And that was Not her fault, you know, So that was really tough you know, she was young and she had a colostopy bag and that was really, yah, that was horrible. She's a medical marvel though. Doctors are like the fact that she's up and walking and talking and alive is a miracle Well, I'm just wondering whether because you've said in the past, sometimes it felt like you had to be a mother to your mum a little bit. and That experience growing up of, you know whatever the difficulties that she was going through trickling down. wasas that part of what fed into what you were going through when you were fifteen, do you think? Yeah. How do you explain What was happening with you Uh yeah, I think I spent most of my time Concned with my mother's well being and health that mind didn't come into it And I was so tied and ammeshed with her ups and downs and highs and lows that whenever she was low, I was low. and I just that's when my sleeping problems started because I couldn't sleep ever because I was so scared if I woke up she'd be dead or she wouldn't be there or You know, I was always crawling into her room and checking if she was breathing and stuff because I lo her so much and she had been sick. And a lot of that wasn't her fault and it isn't her fault. There's a lot of peace I've made with it. especially because of understanding Substanceces and mental health now from my own perspective. I had so much Anger at Hub at the world that I didn't release and I didn't let move through me, so I just took it out on myself And she has a similar thing where the pain that she'd caused made her guilty, so she takes it out on herself. there's just a cycle. There's a pattern there, which is just I feel so bad for what I've done, so I'm not going to let myself move on from it, which is you know, something I work with and work on a lot Where didd you think your anger was coming from? Was it part of that? Was it resentment at the position you felt you'd been put in? or or something else Anggry that I could't save her. Anggry I couldn't fix the problem. because I really thought I could I think that's the root of where it came from H and angry that that Drugs and mental health and all of it like took my mother away a little bit Sometimes But again, that anger is is something I use. It's something I create with. it's something that Like if I'm not angry, it's almost I find it hard to like perform Are you angry in relationships? Hm. So I used to not be and I used to be very Hm I enabled angry people. I used to just swallow everything and take anger from others I felt like I could handle it and then I could hurt myself later with my own staff with it And now I get angry. And I'm trying to learn how to release it in a healthy way. My poor partner has to be the brunt has to bear the brunt of that. I try and explain to her that I was never like this. L I've never been in a relationship where I like get angry at someone and scream and fucking A. And I don't like I never call her names. I don't say like, you, whatever. I just get angry because I can't I feel misunderstood or I can't explain myself properly Um, N in a way that I ever am just trying to hurt her. It's just It has to come out. otherwise I want to hurt myself. It's just really rough that Really Yeah, yeah, yeah Hurt yourself physically. Yeah. Just Bak, punch, scratch Itch, whatever it may be, I just need to feel like yeah, feel pain And I wouldn't sometimes be able to control that when I felt angry and have. It's usually a wall. I would just find a wall and try and slam my head into it. Whereas now I freeze because I have to stop myself from moving But then the voice the hatred for myself becomes really loud. It's really. That's a lot. It is a lot. Are you okay talking about this? hundred percent. It's I like Not I like talking about it. I think it's important to talk about it because I don't feel like I'm alone in it. and people feel less alone because of it. I'm also unmedicated, which some people might find crazy. These are all things that I'm sure medication could probably help But as time's gone on I've really learned my own remedies for it And I like the way I am Um And if it ever gets to a point where obviously it's dangerous for anyone else or myself, that of course I will dig myself off C figure it out But what would be something that might make you want to bang your head know make you that angry? Can you give an example of something? Oh yeah I have a big abandonment thing So If I want to be feel closeness with someone I actually feel really vulnerable, I won't ask for that. I won't go, Hey, I need help or a hug or To be heard, I'll almost poke someone, push them and almost want them like I'll test them because in my head I start thinking that the person I love is going to leave no matter what I do. So I start pushing them to see if they'll leave And if they leave, then I've proved my point Everyone will leave me that no one could actually truly love me because I'm a monster. That's like the root of it And then once I managed to make The Pon Pull back Everything is confirmed and I am an unlovable monster, I don't know that if anyone really knew the real me that they would leave always Are you jealous You're a jealous person Are you insecure in that way? No, no, not at all. Not that. It's more This is not a reflection of my mother at all, but it's that If she really loved me, she would have been able to be better And if your own mother can't love you then that must make me the most unlovable person in the world And that is not a reflection of her because I don't believe that she could have changed or she But I There's like a deep thing that I can say it out loud, and I know it's not true, but there's that's the words I'm putting to the feeling Does that makes sense It's not a jealousy thing. It's not actually a physical thing of someone leaving. it's It's an emotional leaving I think love should be really free and I think if someone Like me and my partner find it really important to talk about like people are attractive and this is that and really it's nothing about possessiveness or jealousy. Are you poly? Could you be? No Why not I've always thought in my head I feel like I could do that I just don't This is why in the relationship I'm in now it feels like the first time I've ever really been in love. because when you've taken substances out of it and everything else I feel like I would always sabotage the relationships I was in with substances and substances were always work was always at the H Whereas now my relationship is The most important thing Like if that's not okay, I'm not okay. And that's probably unhealthy and that might be codependency and everything else Holly No I can't do it Would you imagine do you see yourself getting married at some point Well making a lifelong commitment to someone. Yeah I do, I really do. And I want a family really badly Do you I definitely don't want to have kids to fix anything, but I think it will really heal parts of myself a tough time having sympathy for the kid, I was because I've done a lot of work with that and like Yeah, immagining a little kid go through the things I saw went through I I couldn't imagine that. What do you mean? what did you see in U I don't want to go into it because I do feel like that is a boundary. It not fair to your ye. family. Yeah. And I think you just saw things you feel like you didn't perhaps need to see. For sure Right. Yeah, which Which happens? You know? Yeah. I don't think that's that unusual. No, it's not It's not. But I would love more than anything to have kids, yeah Are you engaged No. I have been engaged. Have you? H Is that known Oh, I don't know. We've got newsine. Who was it? Who were you engaged to? I'm telling you now. Oh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh hees pricked up. Oh my god, I don't even know. Was that not known? I don't even know. I don't know who you were engaged to. Doesn't matter now A longone. Scks for them. I didn't propose to. I've also proposed to someone Have you? Yeah. Who did you propose to? I'm telling you. Who are you proposed to by? N telling. I'm striking I have to have some mysteries here. I love it. Just knocking on the door. No, but I also It was something about actual marriage that I really didn't believe in, but it was engagement that made me feel like they might not leave me So it was like, Ohh, if we're engaged, that means there's an extra line they have to go to to leave. but I actually never wanted to get married. Like that really scared me. because I'm such a I really believe in freedom and not in the sense of like doing whatever I want, but I think Whenever I feel tied down to something, it makes me go wait a minute. Wait a minute that feels funny and alsoso in the sense that marriage in terms of like the patriarchical society and the heteronormative version of that and like land and for religion and all of that is not something I'm down with, but I do believe in like a spiritual union and a commitment and I think There is a beauty in that But it's taken me a minute to really understand that and also to have the same rights in terms of like being in hospital. kids and adoption and all of it, ye Yeah It makes sense You grew up, you've talk you came came out is that you know, basically, I think you identify as being lesbian and for a while you identified as pansexual, I think. Yeah. and maybe bisexual for a. Yeah because I think I think men are attractive. I think if you're a lesbian, you can still find men attractive. but I don't I've never been in love with a man. So I think that classifies me as a lesbian Did it take a while to figure it out? Yes. Why Be it's hard being gay I think basic human instinct is to go for an easier path, which is I hope I'm not can't fight against what you Just to In my little bubble, it's twenty twenty six And Many of those old taboos or prejudices about What it means to be gay have been exploded and dispelled Right? We've openly gay people in almost all walks of life with a few exceptions U Obviously men's football is a big one. Women's football, not so much G everywhere. Gays everywhere. findind a straight female footballer. There. It's a joke, obviously,. But in most other areas with politics, business, you know, mean culture. I think in religious communities Christian in black communities, it's tricky U I think in America, it feels like things are going back backwards a bit in time. For me Yeah your experience There was always an element of people poking fun at it, which was fine because I did it too people close to me, because also I guess I didn't feel very seen for it. but I also know that my own personality is I would take the piss of myself, brush it under the rug and not want to talk about it But there's a partot deep down that you always want to feel Understood a bit more? byy who? By straight people in your life who love you, who didn't. who don't understand that experience Sure, but Broader than that. Fily is in like my friends who are family and stuff like that. Yeahah, like by anyone. felt like there was a default. like of course we assume cars straight like it never crossed our minds that she might not be therefore. there was a direction a momentum Where you would have felt that you were fighting the flow a it. as an actor and like Harvey Weinstein called me up and said, Are you gay? And I was like, what do you mean? And he was, you should never be in a relationship with a women. I was definitely ' he'd seen you out with a wom. Just paparazz., photed me with women. Um I'm just saying you'll never make it in the industry People think you're gay And I really believed him and I really took that to heart U although that's being that's slightly different because that's being out. to the public but behind the scenes figuring out what your identity was was what I was also thinking about like admitting to yourself like I'm gay whether that was a process or something that was pretty evident Well, now I look back on it, it was super evident really young I knew at like eleven years old this one friend I was like, o I care about her more than she likes me and I don't know how, but I do. It was obvious now, but then it really wasn't. and I'm very proud of it now And I think when I started talking about it and being open about it, felt like there was a lot to fight for still at that point in terms of shows about gay people and you know, people to look up to for younger kids. I thought it was super important, but maybe I hadn't also accepted it fully in myself. I wanted to be That role model that I didn't have. But This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you're starting a new venture, support is everything Which is why you should lean on Shopify. tools to design an eye catching website reaches customers y is the ultimate business partner built in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store is your brand Hundreds of templates for you to use. Fi even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing See why businesses like Gymhop Continue to trust Shopify. Sign up for your one dollar per month trial today at shhopify. com slash Louis L O U I S That's shhopify d. com slash Louis Okay, you ready? Are we going to mention the Johnny Depp thing Sure what part of it? He was driven crazy by the idea that Amber might be sleeping with you. Mhm. moment to comment. Oh yeah. It's because we did a movie together and it was called London Fields. He was also doing the movie I think he was pretty driven crazy by jealousy, I suppose. Nothing was happening at that point Later after they divorced had You suppose? No, I don't suppose I do. No. Yeahah An entanglement? what is the word? You tell me? Yeah, I don't know what that means either. Well, I know what an entanglement is What does it mean? Is it bad? I think it means a sort of relatively short lived. Sure. Yeah ye. liaison series. We were closose for a long time when they were going through the divorce Yeah, we were entangled, I suppose But she was also entangled with other people Well with Elon? There you go Luckily, London fields turnurned out to be terrible what Well It's in a very select group of one of the films it's got zero percent fresh rating on rotten tomatoes. Yeah That's quite a leite to come. It's like I've won a Razzie basically is what you're saying. I love it Is it whatoney? Obviously, I'm a fan of the book it was based on. The book is incredible. Martin Amos. Martin Amos genius. The cast is amazing. As is great Good self Amber Heard, Johnny Depp in an uncredited cameo Jason Isaacs, Theo James, Billy Bob Thornton Could you tell it was gonna to be quite as bad. You never know you not? It seemed like it was going to be kind of major. To be honest. Did it? kindind of. Well with the cast. book The script was so good. yeah. The New York Times called it, quote horrendous. A trashy tortured misfire from beginning to end Yeah Andrew Barker of Variety said, Sometimes you have to try to adapt a seemingly unadaptable book to learn how truly unadaptable it is. Down That's really well said, to be quite honest. to be honest, that's really ye well done back on track We were talking about sexuality. Yes Which brings us to it doesn't really, but that's my segue Your sobriety journey I mean And that's going to lead us up to your yourour music and the album, but there was kind of a rock bottom point, wasn't it there which passed me by, to be honest, Nevertheless said it was a big moment apparently in the culture. You were photographed at an airport looking disheveveled This the best sense I can make of it Disheveled, yeah, mentally unwell, for sure, not lack of sleep. I just had a seizure Really? I was Not sober for sure. Coming back from Burning Man. Burning Man. And then had you been caning it at Burning Man quite hard? Yeah And then you just sort of hit the buffers. Yeah, I was taking a lot of drugs and I we There was a certain amount of time we had to leave and I was carrying out I'd always overpeck for Burning Man I was just cararrying loads of suitcases and my body just couldn't take it and I had a seizure whichich again, never see myself have a seizure, but I've had a bunch. In the past had your seizures been just purely medicalged? Drug indued. Yeah yeah, either lack of drugs or many too many jokes And it was captured by Paparazzi. Not the seizure. No. Oh God, no, sorry, yester. you need don't you don't understand. So no, no onsil that G home. desperately trying to find more drugs because I don't know, how to LA or LA beforefore I get on another flight. hadn't slept, maybe found some drugs at the house, did them, went to the airport, got out without shoes, hair. I had had so much stuff in my hair. The hair after burning man I hadn't showered probably so there's just like sand, hair looks crazy. You can just see it in the eyes. I look. abbsolutely wild and feral and Not well, and I'm just like smoking a cigarette, wearing a free Brittney t shirt or something She was still in her conservatorship at the time I don't know. Brity is free now. She's free. She is free. So and then how did that lead to you to the recovery journey? like was that part of the whole Was that a catalytic event Yeah. u for sure because People saw it, it was everywhere I lost jobs People were really worried, that sucked. I got so many messages. it was horrible. You lost jobs because people said like this what people think like this isn't a good look. You look out of control and weird. Yeah, it's not a good look. As model You might up Brands standards in some way, like it's in contracts that you sign. you can't like Yeah, yeah. So, you know, they didn't directly fire me because of it, but they didn't like renew contracts. It went a bit quiet. It's super quiet, yeah. Everyone went very silent And I knew I needed to get sober. so I medically was weaned off of GBL, which would probably is the hardest one to come of. Um, couldouldn't do it at home I couldn't deal with the Getting sober and realizing the more I was sober, the more I realized how badly I fucked up and that just was too much I couldn't stay sober and then I overdosed cause I think there was opiates in Okay, and I think I'd bought or something. So I was now canant was in a hospital and that's really when everything happened because When I woke up. Where were you Narked Whor can you? The ambulance people people who don't know that's it's the kind of quick fix knocks the fentanyl. The fentanyl off your neurod receptors and you come out of it like that you revived almost in the middle of overdosing. Yeah And I was being held down by men and I didn't know what was happening How they know you were there My girlfriend called the police. Re? T ambulance, police or whatever becausecause she's like, we're losing or something This is wow Mm Yeahah horrible. What's it like coming out of you just become aware? I wanted to die. Immediately. I was like, I can't. Could you go straight into your withdrawal Yeah, and you know just you know what you've just put people you love through And you see the pain in their face. the shame Oh that makes me want to cry and it's horrible It's hard to forive yourself for that That was one of the most painful things that's happened to me. so doing that to someone else is really rough. So then. So then I realized I really needed to go away made the decision to do that, had some incredible subber people that I look up to I have one person say to me, If you stay sober for a year and I check in on you in a year and you've stayed sober, buy you a kilo of cocaine and see if you want to do it again. And I didn't. becausecause that's how sure someone is when you've reached that point If you stay so for a year, you'll never want to go back and that's true For me, personally everyone is so lucky. That was the last time. for some reason something changed that time It wasn't fun anymore. none of it was fun anymore. and I was so desperate that I was praying every day for it to end that cycle And I wanted to create something good with it. So Yeah, that's the kind of opening, I guess to music because Music was always there and I loved it so much, but I didn't love myself enough to believe that I could do it until I got sober and until I really forgave myself for everything and until I really Lved all of it, looved the dark, loved the light, loved everything in between That's where an artist emerged because that's where the point of view came from That's where I could findind the polarities of being human and put them into an album and that's reallyally putting to the test how much do you really believe in it? How much do you really want to do it And the answer is badly. and Yeah, this is the beginning of something. reallyally special. I want to continue to make music, I think it's probably something that keeps me sane and sober percent So you kind of a multi hyphen at this point or do you have a main thing? L are you going to put everything into music? Is it going to be something that you mix with other other stuff For the meantime, I think I've never been a super focus person, but actually I work really well with routine and focus So it is It is the priority It is the thing that I wake up thinking about after my girlfriend, it's music. and I don't know, that's like I don't know. it's different for some reason I was thinking about genre And you got you's two main tracks out at the moment, correct Cold. I forgotten out of my head I forgot and out of my head. It's Eimental melodic pop It's kind of like the tunnel. It's quite industrial and process. There's an industrial noises, but there's plentyive melodies mixed in with challenging blasts of Distortion Distortion yeah And it's kind of un Predictable And it takes you don't really know what's going happen next co produced with BJ. Burton. Yeah So is he your Creative partner kind of. Do you write on your own or do you write with someone You wr with BJ I write on my own and then I have collaborators that I write within the studio. Hm BJ, we co produce together U Who's the architect of those experimental sounds? BJ and me. I mean both of us. Both. He's the sound person. 'causeuse you could take that song and do a million things with it. You could play it on a guitar. You could have a ch. That's how started I think he introduced me to a lot of it. But yeah, he was the architect behind the sounds, how they were arranged And I guess modifying them because I had to pull him back from how much distortion and stuff there was I admired the level of when I first heard the song, okay, and then the big blast comes in and I like, okay, I like that G ahead. Yeah, it's good. You had a development deal with Simon Fuller, who used to manage the spice girls as well as other people back in the day You eventually turned him down because it said that he wanted to change your name. Is that true? Yeah, it was before modeling took off and I wrote a bunch of songs with producers he put me in the rooms with and He was like, theseese are good, but it's not what we're looking for you want to Cut your hair and dye it green and your name will be sppike or spark Rember? For real He didn't mind whether it was Spike or Spark. No, I just don't know which one it was. It was one of them. They showed me presentation. I've no idea. They are different, right? It's either because it's spik because I remember green spiky hair or a spiark because it looks Stp my finger in a spark plug. I have no idea. Were you tempted No, because music is precious. I just knew I was going to do it one day, just not then and My own way So you're in your mid tour You're going off to Paris You got some dates in America U how's it all feel? It's getting better, but there's I it's getting better. It's good. No, it's It's good, but there's I just know I can do more, but maybe not with this tour. There's just like already while I'm doing this and talking about these songs, they feel old and I want to write new. I'm already back in the studio. nexte album and all of it, even though I am very excited about this one, it's funny because when people hear things for the first time artists have been working on them for so long. So it's like, off course, I can you know, you promote things that you made two years ago and you're like I can't even remember making that. You get a bit disconnected from it Is it still ups and downs like the normal things or you're not in this sort of sunlit uplands of ost recoarch is just not possible. No, because also that ends quite quickly Bubble, they called it. Do you still do meetings? No. which is bad probably, but I It's not my thing. Are you completely sober Yes I have control, but once something enters me, I lose control, right? That's the point Um But I think there's like medicinal hallucinogens which can be okay at some point. I just don't know. that's a thing for me, but we'll see. ly they' for PTSD better than Ketamine, I think, guys. everyone The hallucinogens by was. Apparently I haven'tone that y. I haven't decided if that' was for me. We'll see Well, listen, congratulations on getting this far and everything you've accomplished. Thank you. Thank you for coming by. Thank you. Music is my drug. It's funny. I did I did the X and the drugs and now the rock and roll. Yes. You know Vog, bke, doke, fog That was the You know the echoy bit inogue by Madonna? That's what I was doing there. Sachet, Chante That's repuul Millie's written Twitter batt with Jamila Jamil Have you ever been in an online fight? I mean, that's mainly what the online arena is for. I've been quite scrupulous about try to avoid getting in fights. I honestly don't think I have a. I've obviously been attacked multiple times People spoiling for fights. when I sent out my now legendary tweet Mark Legendary off your bingo card about Michael Jackson being a pedophile. U There was quite a lot of comeback. And I think one of those I came back to his comeback And he came back for he came back to that. That's not the right verb. He responded And then I left it there As I said in the chat, no one wins I'm trying not to dilute or destroy my online persona as a nice person Adinburgh Brian Cox, the astronomer. Not for me to say who's the third one London Fields, the film. I didn't watch it for the chat There's only so many hours in the day. If you've seen it, let me know what you think in the comments. I checked. it does in fact have zero percent on the omometer. It's certified maximally not fresh Other not percent fresh films, you're wondering. I knew this one anyway. Pudzy the Dog, the movie. I used to live near the director and'd see him out walking his dog And It's hard not to project because I don't think he directed any films after that and it was hard not to project a kind of sadness onto him which may have been completely inaccurate. He might have been loving life. But I was like, there he is with his dog walking off all the anguish he feels from having made one of the worst films of all time. But you know, those numbers are bullshit Mill, if you were run on your game, you would have said, My scientology movie gets such and such percent or the Manisfth film gets such and such percent I think you looked it up and it wasn't low enough to be funny Is that what happened? Yeah it was. Is it? Annoyingly, yeah. So there you go, a little insight into the mind of Millie Chu I wouldn't call it sadistic, but just mischievous There was no value to be extracted from a high score for my output So it goes unremarked upon That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Man Al Yazari, the production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Migueli Ollivera, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production For Spotify why you should lean on shopif is the ultimate business partner in support system And you don't have to be a design pro to make an awesome online store which is your brand Hundreds of templates for you to use. Shopify even has commerce experts to help you out so you can stress less and start growing see why businesses like Gymhark Continue to trust Shopify. signign up for your one dollar per month trial today at Sopify. com slash Louis L O U I S That's shhopify. com slash Louis.